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Just a few (stupid) questions

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Anonymous
August 20, 2005 12:12:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Well, progress on my game is moving forward pretty well. For those who
don't know, it's a short little horror RL, taking place in a replica of
the hotel that I live and work in.

Anyways, I'm no artist, so I figure, to really build up atmosphere, I
need to have good sound. So far, so good. I have some creepy effects,
which hit when something is happening, and sometimes just randomly, to
keep the player on their toes.

Anyway, a couple quick questions.

Firstly, I'm unsure whether or not to use music. Music can build
atmosphere very well, but it's not easy to find good atmospheric music
that is free to use. So, does anybody know of some good creepy music,
that is public domain, or free to use?

Also, I have a really stupid question. I'll try to explain it as best I
can, although I have a feeling that I'll leave everyone confused. In a
large number of movies, and games, I've noticed one very popular and
consistantly recurring "scream" sound effect, that somehow managaes to
sneak it's way into a lot of things. It's definitely a man's scream,
and it lasts for a few seconds, and kind of fades off at the end. Like
I said, I've noticed the same identical scream show up in dozens of
movies (can't think of any examples off the top of my head). My gut
instinct is that it some sort of Hollywood "in-joke", to keep using it.
Does anyone know what I'm talking about? More importantly, does
anyone have a link to the sound bite?

Anyways, thanks in advance for any help. I'm really eager to see this
game reach a finished and playable state, since it'll mark my first
release of a game.

More about : stupid questions

Anonymous
August 20, 2005 12:56:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Timothy Pruett wrote:

> Firstly, I'm unsure whether or not to use music. Music can build
> atmosphere very well, but it's not easy to find good atmospheric music
> that is free to use. So, does anybody know of some good creepy music,
> that is public domain, or free to use?

Does your engine allow for layering of sounds? If so, you could do some
neat things with a "responsive soundtrack". For example, if a monster
enters the LOS of the PC, a tension-building track could be triggered.
If the PC is also without a weapon, a subtle "heart-pounding" track
could be layered upon the previous sound.

This would likely seem gimmicky in a "normal" RL, but I think it would
fit something horror-themed quite well.

Also, if you're still in need of help with sounds/music, let me know. I
can make something based on ideas, or just put something together
myself. It would have to be MP3 or WAV, though.
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 1:55:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Timothy Pruett wrote:
> Well, progress on my game is moving forward pretty well. For those who
> don't know, it's a short little horror RL, taking place in a replica of
> the hotel that I live and work in.
>
> Anyways, I'm no artist, so I figure, to really build up atmosphere, I
> need to have good sound. So far, so good. I have some creepy effects,
> which hit when something is happening, and sometimes just randomly, to
> keep the player on their toes.
>
> Anyway, a couple quick questions.
>
> Firstly, I'm unsure whether or not to use music. Music can build
> atmosphere very well, but it's not easy to find good atmospheric music
> that is free to use. So, does anybody know of some good creepy music,
> that is public domain, or free to use?
>
> Also, I have a really stupid question. I'll try to explain it as best I
> can, although I have a feeling that I'll leave everyone confused. In a
> large number of movies, and games, I've noticed one very popular and
> consistantly recurring "scream" sound effect, that somehow managaes to
> sneak it's way into a lot of things. It's definitely a man's scream,
> and it lasts for a few seconds, and kind of fades off at the end. Like
> I said, I've noticed the same identical scream show up in dozens of
> movies (can't think of any examples off the top of my head). My gut
> instinct is that it some sort of Hollywood "in-joke", to keep using it.
> Does anyone know what I'm talking about? More importantly, does anyone
> have a link to the sound bite?
>
> Anyways, thanks in advance for any help. I'm really eager to see this
> game reach a finished and playable state, since it'll mark my first
> release of a game.

Oh, and just to mention, the scream sound effect I'm looking for is
*not* the Wilhelm scream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_scream).
Related resources
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 2:27:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Auric__ wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:12:51 -0500, Timothy Pruett wrote:
>
>
>>Well, progress on my game is moving forward pretty well. For those who
>>don't know, it's a short little horror RL, taking place in a replica of
>>the hotel that I live and work in.
>
>
> w00t! Waiting on a release.
>
>
>>Anyways, I'm no artist, so I figure, to really build up atmosphere, I
>>need to have good sound. So far, so good. I have some creepy effects,
>>which hit when something is happening, and sometimes just randomly, to
>>keep the player on their toes.
>>
>>Anyway, a couple quick questions.
>>
>>Firstly, I'm unsure whether or not to use music. Music can build
>>atmosphere very well, but it's not easy to find good atmospheric music
>>that is free to use. So, does anybody know of some good creepy music,
>>that is public domain, or free to use?
>
>
> I have one song that you're free to use. I didn't really mean it to be
> creepy, but if you want it, let me know. (It's a midi, but I can put it
> into a different format - wav, mp3, ogg, several others.)

I'd definitely be interested. Is it small enough to send via email? If
so, send it on down my way. :-)

>>Also, I have a really stupid question. I'll try to explain it as best I
>>can, although I have a feeling that I'll leave everyone confused. In a
>>large number of movies, and games, I've noticed one very popular and
>>consistantly recurring "scream" sound effect, that somehow managaes to
>>sneak it's way into a lot of things. It's definitely a man's scream,
>>and it lasts for a few seconds, and kind of fades off at the end. Like
>>I said, I've noticed the same identical scream show up in dozens of
>>movies (can't think of any examples off the top of my head). My gut
>>instinct is that it some sort of Hollywood "in-joke", to keep using it.
>> Does anyone know what I'm talking about? More importantly, does
>>anyone have a link to the sound bite?
>
>
> Give a few specific examples of what shows it's been in, and when to
> listen for it.

It's been a while, so I could be mistaken, but I think it showed up in
"The Princess Bride", while Wesley was put on The Machine, and it got
cranked up to full.

I'm racking my brain to try and think of where else I've heard it, but
too much research has clouded my memory. I've been searching everywhere
for mention of it, but all I can find online is information about the
much more well known Wilhelm scream. Now, whenever I try and remember
the scream I'm looking for, all I can think of is that damnable Wilhelm
nonsense. Argh! But, like I said above, I *think* that "The Princess
Bride" had it, but I don't have a copy, so I can't check it.
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 2:27:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:27:37 -0500, Timothy Pruett wrote:

>Auric__ wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:12:51 -0500, Timothy Pruett wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Well, progress on my game is moving forward pretty well. For those who
>>>don't know, it's a short little horror RL, taking place in a replica of
>>>the hotel that I live and work in.
>>
>>
>> w00t! Waiting on a release.
>>
>>
>>>Anyways, I'm no artist, so I figure, to really build up atmosphere, I
>>>need to have good sound. So far, so good. I have some creepy effects,
>>>which hit when something is happening, and sometimes just randomly, to
>>>keep the player on their toes.
>>>
>>>Anyway, a couple quick questions.
>>>
>>>Firstly, I'm unsure whether or not to use music. Music can build
>>>atmosphere very well, but it's not easy to find good atmospheric music
>>>that is free to use. So, does anybody know of some good creepy music,
>>>that is public domain, or free to use?
>>
>>
>> I have one song that you're free to use. I didn't really mean it to be
>> creepy, but if you want it, let me know. (It's a midi, but I can put it
>> into a different format - wav, mp3, ogg, several others.)
>
>I'd definitely be interested. Is it small enough to send via email? If
>so, send it on down my way. :-)

Sent.

>>>Also, I have a really stupid question. I'll try to explain it as best I
>>>can, although I have a feeling that I'll leave everyone confused. In a
>>>large number of movies, and games, I've noticed one very popular and
>>>consistantly recurring "scream" sound effect, that somehow managaes to
>>>sneak it's way into a lot of things. It's definitely a man's scream,
>>>and it lasts for a few seconds, and kind of fades off at the end. Like
>>>I said, I've noticed the same identical scream show up in dozens of
>>>movies (can't think of any examples off the top of my head). My gut
>>>instinct is that it some sort of Hollywood "in-joke", to keep using it.
>>> Does anyone know what I'm talking about? More importantly, does
>>>anyone have a link to the sound bite?
>>
>>
>> Give a few specific examples of what shows it's been in, and when to
>> listen for it.
>
>It's been a while, so I could be mistaken, but I think it showed up in
>"The Princess Bride", while Wesley was put on The Machine, and it got
>cranked up to full.
>
>I'm racking my brain to try and think of where else I've heard it, but
>too much research has clouded my memory. I've been searching everywhere
>for mention of it, but all I can find online is information about the
>much more well known Wilhelm scream. Now, whenever I try and remember
>the scream I'm looking for, all I can think of is that damnable Wilhelm
>nonsense. Argh! But, like I said above, I *think* that "The Princess
>Bride" had it, but I don't have a copy, so I can't check it.

Me neither, and I haven't seen that movie in a while...
--
auric dot auric at gmail dot com
*****
You should know that the squalor out front is more a reminder of what is
being left behind. Though, as the vomiting angel told you, appearances
are trivial things here.
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 3:52:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Jason Allen wrote:
> Timothy Pruett wrote:
>
>
>>Firstly, I'm unsure whether or not to use music. Music can build
>>atmosphere very well, but it's not easy to find good atmospheric music
>>that is free to use. So, does anybody know of some good creepy music,
>>that is public domain, or free to use?
>
>
> Does your engine allow for layering of sounds? If so, you could do some
> neat things with a "responsive soundtrack". For example, if a monster
> enters the LOS of the PC, a tension-building track could be triggered.
> If the PC is also without a weapon, a subtle "heart-pounding" track
> could be layered upon the previous sound.

That should be pretty easy to pull off. I'm using SDL and SDL_mixer,
and it handles layering pretty well. The tricky part is, that it
creates a seperate channel for music, and that particular channel is
isolated from the other sound code, so I'd have to implement the
"responsive soundtrack" using standard sound code. Not too difficult,
although a bit more work to pull off.

> This would likely seem gimmicky in a "normal" RL, but I think it would
> fit something horror-themed quite well.

I agree.

> Also, if you're still in need of help with sounds/music, let me know. I
> can make something based on ideas, or just put something together
> myself. It would have to be MP3 or WAV, though.

I'd appreciate any help I can get. To really get the right level of
creepiness and atmosphere, I need a large variety of sound effects,
since hearing the same duplicate sounds over and over again breaks the
player's suspension of disbelief.

Any good general purpose creepy sound effects (creaks, groans, moans,
knocks, etc.), screams, whatever you can think up. Some more heartbeat
sound effects, of varying rythm would be nice, since I only have one
fast beat and one slow beat. Also, I'm trying to find various odd,
wierd sound effects. Nothing in particular, just sounds that confuse
the player, without coming off as "hokey".
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 3:57:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Auric__ wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:27:37 -0500, Timothy Pruett wrote:
>
>
>>Auric__ wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:12:51 -0500, Timothy Pruett wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well, progress on my game is moving forward pretty well. For those who
>>>>don't know, it's a short little horror RL, taking place in a replica of
>>>>the hotel that I live and work in.
>>>
>>>
>>>w00t! Waiting on a release.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Anyways, I'm no artist, so I figure, to really build up atmosphere, I
>>>>need to have good sound. So far, so good. I have some creepy effects,
>>>>which hit when something is happening, and sometimes just randomly, to
>>>>keep the player on their toes.
>>>>
>>>>Anyway, a couple quick questions.
>>>>
>>>>Firstly, I'm unsure whether or not to use music. Music can build
>>>>atmosphere very well, but it's not easy to find good atmospheric music
>>>>that is free to use. So, does anybody know of some good creepy music,
>>>>that is public domain, or free to use?
>>>
>>>
>>>I have one song that you're free to use. I didn't really mean it to be
>>>creepy, but if you want it, let me know. (It's a midi, but I can put it
>>>into a different format - wav, mp3, ogg, several others.)
>>
>>I'd definitely be interested. Is it small enough to send via email? If
>>so, send it on down my way. :-)
>
>
> Sent.

I just listened to it. Awesome! Made me think of Resident Evil, for
some reason. I'd like to hear some of your other stuff, even if it
isn't suited for horror.

>>>>Also, I have a really stupid question. I'll try to explain it as best I
>>>>can, although I have a feeling that I'll leave everyone confused. In a
>>>>large number of movies, and games, I've noticed one very popular and
>>>>consistantly recurring "scream" sound effect, that somehow managaes to
>>>>sneak it's way into a lot of things. It's definitely a man's scream,
>>>>and it lasts for a few seconds, and kind of fades off at the end. Like
>>>>I said, I've noticed the same identical scream show up in dozens of
>>>>movies (can't think of any examples off the top of my head). My gut
>>>>instinct is that it some sort of Hollywood "in-joke", to keep using it.
>>>>Does anyone know what I'm talking about? More importantly, does
>>>>anyone have a link to the sound bite?
>>>
>>>
>>>Give a few specific examples of what shows it's been in, and when to
>>>listen for it.
>>
>>It's been a while, so I could be mistaken, but I think it showed up in
>>"The Princess Bride", while Wesley was put on The Machine, and it got
>>cranked up to full.
>>
>>I'm racking my brain to try and think of where else I've heard it, but
>>too much research has clouded my memory. I've been searching everywhere
>>for mention of it, but all I can find online is information about the
>>much more well known Wilhelm scream. Now, whenever I try and remember
>>the scream I'm looking for, all I can think of is that damnable Wilhelm
>>nonsense. Argh! But, like I said above, I *think* that "The Princess
>>Bride" had it, but I don't have a copy, so I can't check it.
>
>
> Me neither, and I haven't seen that movie in a while...

I really need to get a copy, because that was a great movie.
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 3:57:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 23:57:12 -0500, Timothy Pruett wrote:

>Auric__ wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:27:37 -0500, Timothy Pruett wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Auric__ wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:12:51 -0500, Timothy Pruett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Well, progress on my game is moving forward pretty well. For those who
>>>>>don't know, it's a short little horror RL, taking place in a replica of
>>>>>the hotel that I live and work in.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>w00t! Waiting on a release.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Anyways, I'm no artist, so I figure, to really build up atmosphere, I
>>>>>need to have good sound. So far, so good. I have some creepy effects,
>>>>>which hit when something is happening, and sometimes just randomly, to
>>>>>keep the player on their toes.
>>>>>
>>>>>Anyway, a couple quick questions.
>>>>>
>>>>>Firstly, I'm unsure whether or not to use music. Music can build
>>>>>atmosphere very well, but it's not easy to find good atmospheric music
>>>>>that is free to use. So, does anybody know of some good creepy music,
>>>>>that is public domain, or free to use?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I have one song that you're free to use. I didn't really mean it to be
>>>>creepy, but if you want it, let me know. (It's a midi, but I can put it
>>>>into a different format - wav, mp3, ogg, several others.)
>>>
>>>I'd definitely be interested. Is it small enough to send via email? If
>>>so, send it on down my way. :-)
>>
>>
>> Sent.
>
>I just listened to it. Awesome! Made me think of Resident Evil, for
>some reason. I'd like to hear some of your other stuff, even if it
>isn't suited for horror.

It was meant to be a sort of "bad things happening" theme.

I've sent you a few others. Read the email, please.

>>>>>Also, I have a really stupid question. I'll try to explain it as best I
>>>>>can, although I have a feeling that I'll leave everyone confused. In a
>>>>>large number of movies, and games, I've noticed one very popular and
>>>>>consistantly recurring "scream" sound effect, that somehow managaes to
>>>>>sneak it's way into a lot of things. It's definitely a man's scream,
>>>>>and it lasts for a few seconds, and kind of fades off at the end. Like
>>>>>I said, I've noticed the same identical scream show up in dozens of
>>>>>movies (can't think of any examples off the top of my head). My gut
>>>>>instinct is that it some sort of Hollywood "in-joke", to keep using it.
>>>>>Does anyone know what I'm talking about? More importantly, does
>>>>>anyone have a link to the sound bite?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Give a few specific examples of what shows it's been in, and when to
>>>>listen for it.
>>>
>>>It's been a while, so I could be mistaken, but I think it showed up in
>>>"The Princess Bride", while Wesley was put on The Machine, and it got
>>>cranked up to full.
>>>
>>>I'm racking my brain to try and think of where else I've heard it, but
>>>too much research has clouded my memory. I've been searching everywhere
>>>for mention of it, but all I can find online is information about the
>>>much more well known Wilhelm scream. Now, whenever I try and remember
>>>the scream I'm looking for, all I can think of is that damnable Wilhelm
>>>nonsense. Argh! But, like I said above, I *think* that "The Princess
>>>Bride" had it, but I don't have a copy, so I can't check it.
>>
>>
>> Me neither, and I haven't seen that movie in a while...
>
>I really need to get a copy, because that was a great movie.

No doubt.
--
auric dot auric at gmail dot com
*****
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best.
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 4:18:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Timothy Pruett <drakalor.tourist@gmail.com> writes:

> Firstly, I'm unsure whether or not to use music. Music can build
> atmosphere very well, but it's not easy to find good atmospheric music
> that is free to use. So, does anybody know of some good creepy music,
> that is public domain, or free to use?

My take on it is this: Whatever music you choose, it won't be to everyone's
liking. But, nearly everyone who likes music at all will have some means of
playing it while they're at their computer.

So, unless I had an Id-like budget to hire someone like Nine Inch Nails to
write and record a completely original score, I wouldn't bother. Your players
will mostly turn it off and listen to their own anyway.

Which, incidentally, brings up another point: If you do choose to include
music, then you absolutely should provide a way to turn it OFF.

sherm--

--
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Hire me! My resume: http://www.dot-app.org
Anonymous
August 21, 2005 6:03:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Dene wrote:
> "Timothy Pruett" <drakalor.tourist@gmail.com> wrote in message

[snip wonderful suggestions for a horror RL]

> "The creature lashes out with a claw. You gasp as they rake your flesh."

Using "they" in the second sentence seems correct in spoken English,
but in fact it is a minor grammatical flaw. Being plural, "they" would
refer to many creatures raking the character's flesh. The correct
sentence would read "You gasp as it rakes your flesh." therfore
clarifying what is being referred to.
Anonymous
August 21, 2005 6:55:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Auric__ wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:27:37 -0500, Timothy Pruett wrote:

>>>>Anyway, a couple quick questions.
>>>>
>>>>Firstly, I'm unsure whether or not to use music. Music can build
>>>>atmosphere very well, but it's not easy to find good atmospheric music
>>>>that is free to use. So, does anybody know of some good creepy music,
>>>>that is public domain, or free to use?
>>>
>>>
>>>I have one song that you're free to use. I didn't really mean it to be
>>>creepy, but if you want it, let me know. (It's a midi, but I can put it
>>>into a different format - wav, mp3, ogg, several others.)
>>
>>I'd definitely be interested. Is it small enough to send via email? If
>>so, send it on down my way. :-)
>
>
> Sent.


I want a copy too :-)

--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"11 years and no binary. And it's not vapourware" -- Igor Savin
Anonymous
August 21, 2005 6:55:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 14:55:53 +0200, Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:

>Auric__ wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:27:37 -0500, Timothy Pruett wrote:
>
>>>>>Anyway, a couple quick questions.
>>>>>
>>>>>Firstly, I'm unsure whether or not to use music. Music can build
>>>>>atmosphere very well, but it's not easy to find good atmospheric music
>>>>>that is free to use. So, does anybody know of some good creepy music,
>>>>>that is public domain, or free to use?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I have one song that you're free to use. I didn't really mean it to be
>>>>creepy, but if you want it, let me know. (It's a midi, but I can put it
>>>>into a different format - wav, mp3, ogg, several others.)
>>>
>>>I'd definitely be interested. Is it small enough to send via email? If
>>>so, send it on down my way. :-)
>>
>>
>> Sent.
>
>
>I want a copy too :-)

Sent.
--
auric dot auric at gmail dot com
*****
Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
-- Albert Einstein
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 12:21:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

"Timothy Pruett" <drakalor.tourist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:IrvNe.2005$cO6.844@fe04.lga...
> Well, progress on my game is moving forward pretty well. For those who
> don't know, it's a short little horror RL, taking place in a replica of
> the hotel that I live and work in.
> < snip >

I'm new to posting in this group, but thought I'd send my first opinionated,
fat-headed post. :-)
Hello! (waves enthusiastically)

It strikes me that in a horror RL a lot of your atmosphere is going to come
from the text descriptions of events, the circumstances leading up to those
events, and a far larger than usual number of strings to describe them.
Hmmm.. this is sounding vague. Perhaps some examples:-

Describing the sound of a creature *attempting* to open a nearby door would
be as important as the actual opening:
"The door's knob begins to turn slowly"
"The door opens..." [yes, even the ellipses add a sense of forboding.
Fear the 3 dotted goodness!]
"Something slaps wetly against the door. The door gives way. You cannot
make out the shape beyond the doorframe..."
When a creature is *finally* in sight such that you can recognise it, I'd
make a big deal about it, but *never* name the creature!
"Your torch reveals a corpse, standing upright and staring with evil
intent..."
"Something unspeakable shambles into view, its black mouth puckering,
oozing black ichor"

Likewise, I'd imagine combat to look something like this:
"The creature lashes out with a claw. You gasp as they rake your flesh."
"The creature's mouth dribbles black fluid"
"You lash out with the hammer. It sinks in to the creature's chitinous
hide."
"You lash out with the hammer. The blow slides off the creature's
chitinous hide."
"With a gurgle, the creature falls to the ground. Is it dead..?"
"You walk past the creature's body..."
"You walk past the creature's body..."
"You walk past the creature's body..."
"You walk past the creature. It reaches up with claw and catches your
leg."

Anyhow, you get the idea. It seems to me that the general ideal would be to
use lots of adjectives, lots of adverbs, but few proper nouns. Fear is about
the player's imagination, and feeding that wherever possible, rather than
giving lots of dry information. Music *might* help, and sound *might* help,
but both these - if used in the context of a game where these are sporadic -
could actually take away from the atmosphere.

Anyhow - I look forward to seeing this when it gets to Alpha. It'll be
lovely to see a game which is less about mechanics and more about
atmosphere.

Dene

http://dene.iine.org
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 3:46:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

>> "The creature lashes out with a claw. You gasp as they rake your
>> flesh."
>
> Using "they" in the second sentence seems correct in spoken English,
> but in fact it is a minor grammatical flaw. Being plural, "they" would
> refer to many creatures raking the character's flesh. The correct
> sentence would read "You gasp as it rakes your flesh." therfore
> clarifying what is being referred to.

Your quiet wright, you now. :-)
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 1:26:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:55:14 -0500,
Timothy Pruett wrote:

> Timothy Pruett wrote:
> Oh, and just to mention, the scream sound effect I'm looking for is
> *not* the Wilhelm scream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_scream).

Shame, I was just going to mention it :) 

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(TT) 3 Waaah!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 2:52:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Could it be the scream you hear when you click on the Academy in
Starcraft or when you fall a long way in Dark Forces (I think those two
are the same)? I know I see some question like this from time to time
and I think that sound is usually the answer.
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 11:15:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

briktal wrote:
> Could it be the scream you hear when you click on the Academy in
> Starcraft or when you fall a long way in Dark Forces (I think those two
> are the same)? I know I see some question like this from time to time
> and I think that sound is usually the answer.

Yes, that's it! Now if only I could find a copy of that sound...


--
My projects are currently on hold, but I do have
some junk at the site below.

http://www.freewebs.com/timsrl/index.htm

--
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 1:04:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

"briktal" <briktal@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124733138.331238.316460@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Could it be the scream you hear when you click on the Academy in
> Starcraft or when you fall a long way in Dark Forces (I think those
> two
> are the same)? I know I see some question like this from time to time
> and I think that sound is usually the answer.
>

Hmmm good point, that scream is definitely not Wilhelm.

--
Glen
L:p yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 2:25:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

> Any good general purpose creepy sound effects (creaks, groans, moans,
> knocks, etc.), screams, whatever you can think up. Some more heartbeat
> sound effects, of varying rythm would be nice, since I only have one
> fast beat and one slow beat. Also, I'm trying to find various odd,
> wierd sound effects. Nothing in particular, just sounds that confuse
> the player, without coming off as "hokey".

Speaking of creepy sound effects, there's this one sound effect that is
used nearly everywhere for large, creaky, wooden doors opening and
closing. I hear it almost every time there is a large wooden door on
screen. The problem is, once you notice that it's the same, it starts
to get old quick... :) 
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 11:02:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:21:07 +0100, "Dene" <dene@necrofaeries.net>
wrote:

>It strikes me that in a horror RL a lot of your atmosphere is going to come
>from the text descriptions of events, the circumstances leading up to those
>events, and a far larger than usual number of strings to describe them.
>Hmmm.. this is sounding vague. Perhaps some examples:-

The real difficulty isn't in generating text, but in getting players to
read it. We've got people here who don't even 'l'ook at new monsters.

>Likewise, I'd imagine combat to look something like this:
> "The creature lashes out with a claw. You gasp as they rake your flesh."
> "The creature's mouth dribbles black fluid"
> "You lash out with the hammer. It sinks in to the creature's chitinous
>hide."
> "You lash out with the hammer. The blow slides off the creature's
>chitinous hide."
> "With a gurgle, the creature falls to the ground. Is it dead..?"
> "You walk past the creature's body..."
> "You walk past the creature's body..."
> "You walk past the creature's body..."
> "You walk past the creature. It reaches up with claw and catches your
>leg."

All you've done is make the player hit the space bar (or whatever
advances the messages in your game) more, leading to *less* reading of
the actual text.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 11:02:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 21 Aug 2005 14:03:03 -0700, bencillan@yahoo.com wrote:

>
>Dene wrote:
>> "Timothy Pruett" <drakalor.tourist@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
>[snip wonderful suggestions for a horror RL]
>
>> "The creature lashes out with a claw. You gasp as they rake your flesh."
>
>Using "they" in the second sentence seems correct in spoken English,

Only in quite modern nigh-illiterate spoken English. This isn't even
good dialect.

>but in fact it is a minor grammatical flaw. Being plural, "they" would
>refer to many creatures raking the character's flesh. The correct
>sentence would read "You gasp as it rakes your flesh." therfore
>clarifying what is being referred to.

Actually "they" takes "claw" as an antecedent, not "creature". Your
correction is, of course, still correct. Or one could write "The
creature lashes out with its claws" to provide a plural antecedent.
(This wasn't the only usage error in the examples, either -- but I don't
think it made the example set any less clear. You'd have to edit your
text in a real game, but making it is the first step.)

This particular text, however, isn't remotely suggestive of horror. It
would fit into any random dungeon crawl.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 10:30:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On 21 Aug 2005 14:03:03 -0700, bencillan@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Dene wrote:
> >> "Timothy Pruett" <drakalor.tourist@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> >[snip wonderful suggestions for a horror RL]
> >
> >> "The creature lashes out with a claw. You gasp as they rake your flesh."
> >
> >Using "they" in the second sentence seems correct in spoken English,
>
> Only in quite modern nigh-illiterate spoken English. This isn't even
> good dialect.
>
> >but in fact it is a minor grammatical flaw. Being plural, "they" would
> >refer to many creatures raking the character's flesh. The correct
> >sentence would read "You gasp as it rakes your flesh." therfore
> >clarifying what is being referred to.
>
> Actually "they" takes "claw" as an antecedent, not "creature". Your
> correction is, of course, still correct. Or one could write "The
> creature lashes out with its claws" to provide a plural antecedent.

Actually, it could also be read as (keeping the plural context there
for the sake of continuity, even though incorrect) "You gasp as they
rake your flesh [with their claw]. In such a scenario, the [with their
claw] is somewhat correct. The final sentence, though, should read "The
creature lashes at you with its claw. You gasp as it rakes your flesh."
Still, the ambiguous "it" in the second seems acceptable as meaning the
creature or the claw, the justification for it referring to the
creature being that the creature is the implicit mind behind the claw,
and thus anything that the claw does is the result of manipulation by
the creature.

> (This wasn't the only usage error in the examples, either -- but I don't
> think it made the example set any less clear. You'd have to edit your
> text in a real game, but making it is the first step.)
>
> This particular text, however, isn't remotely suggestive of horror. It
> would fit into any random dungeon crawl.

I agree.
September 3, 2005 3:16:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

> The real difficulty isn't in generating text, but in getting players to
> read it. We've got people here who don't even 'l'ook at new monsters.
>
<snips>
> All you've done is make the player hit the space bar (or whatever
> advances the messages in your game) more, leading to *less* reading of
> the actual text.


(blinks in amazement)

You mean you've never played a roguelike where you see a description of
what's on the floor as you move around? I'm sure i could find a whole bunch
of examples.

I really must say that the level of supercilous (and frankly superfluous)
commentary on what was supposed to be a fun and hopefully enthusiastic post
has done nothing to encourage discussion, nor further the cause of
roguelikes or their development.

I consider every post so far to have utterly missed the point, and I am left
genuinely regretting having posted at all.

If you wish to encourage discussion I suggest being a little friendlier.
Anonymous
September 3, 2005 3:16:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At Sat, 3 Sep 2005 11:16:09 +0100,
Skeksis wrote:

>> The real difficulty isn't in generating text, but in getting players to
>> read it. We've got people here who don't even 'l'ook at new monsters.
>>
><snips>
>> All you've done is make the player hit the space bar (or whatever
>> advances the messages in your game) more, leading to *less* reading of
>> the actual text.

> (blinks in amazement)

> You mean you've never played a roguelike where you see a description of
> what's on the floor as you move around? I'm sure i could find a whole bunch
> of examples.

Those "You're standing on 35 arrows of slay dragon" messages have
a purpose -- to see what item there's and decide whether to pick it up or
not. And even those messages are rarely read by players --- you usually
just scan the item name, and even this only when you consider picking it
up.

It's as if you arguead that roguelikesare like IF games because the
inventory listing in roguelikes is similar to room description in IF
games.

> I really must say that the level of supercilous (and frankly superfluous)
> commentary on what was supposed to be a fun and hopefully enthusiastic post
> has done nothing to encourage discussion, nor further the cause of
> roguelikes or their development.

> I consider every post so far to have utterly missed the point, and I am left
> genuinely regretting having posted at all.

> If you wish to encourage discussion I suggest being a little friendlier.

It's not a "brotherhood of mutual adoration", you know. You post good and
interesting ideas -- they get discussed and maybe even implemented. You
post bad ideas -- they get discussed and hopefully made better. You post
out-of-reality wishful thoughts -- they get criticised and brought back
to earth.

At least you can count on some kind of justice and equal treating. I mean
as long as you're not behaving unacceptably. ;) 

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(@a) 3 Be?
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
September 3, 2005 4:34:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

<snip>

> At least you can count on some kind of justice and equal treating. I mean
> as long as you're not behaving unacceptably. ;) 

Indeed. But to have to wade through persnickety comments about minor issues
of diction (see previous posts) seems less friendly (and relevant) than any
form of argument over merit of ideas.

And, incidentally, thanks for commenting. Friendly argument follows:


If this horror game were slower paced (as specified) rather than the usual
hack-fest, I think the text could be far more important. I'd even argue that
it is critical to commercial games such as Silent Hill. There's something
chilling about the simple mechanic of seeing something, investigating
(clicking) and seeing:

"It is a corpse. There is something wrong with his face."

In addition, I know when I play nethack I 'listen' out for shopkeepers,
rock-moles and dwarfs and many other messages. It doesn't strike me as too
much of a stretch to think that by throwing in a few extra lines (since
horror is more about anticipation than revelation), and flavouring others in
a more horrific manner you'll end up with a richer experience.

Let's be honest, if you want slow play, and not too many monsters, you're
going to be reading, 'l'ooking, and otherwise interacting with the
environment. A lot. Your feedback will probably be textual.

Dene

--
Sig? What sig?
September 3, 2005 4:57:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Skeksis <dene@> wrote:
> Indeed. But to have to wade through persnickety comments about minor issues
> of diction (see previous posts) seems less friendly (and relevant) than any
> form of argument over merit of ideas.

About the grammatical discussion:
It's worth noting that the post which sparked that began with something
like
[snip wonderful suggestions for horror RL]. Of course, that's not the
direction which the discussion followed.
I fear that being a bit of a pedant goes hand in hand with being a
competent programmer. And that poster did begin by praising the bulk of
your article.
I do agree that people could try to be a bit friendlier, and being both
opinionated and thin-skinned myself, I find myself often stung by
comments which were doubtless intended as constructive criticism. Sadly
this just seems to be the way of the internet, and I don't think it's
ever going to change.

> If this horror game were slower paced (as specified) rather than the usual
> hack-fest, I think the text could be far more important.

I believe that if properly balanced, this could work brilliantly, and I
would love to see it in an RL sometime. Of course, as you have already
stated, it would not be your usual hackfest, but it could still be very
roguelike and very good.

> Let's be honest, if you want slow play, and not too many monsters, you're
> going to be reading, 'l'ooking, and otherwise interacting with the
> environment. A lot. Your feedback will probably be textual.

This would, of course, lend itself to a game which you win once and then
move on from, unlike a game along the lines of Crawl or Angband, where
winning once leads to the question "What type of character should I try
to win with next?". Many people here expect every RL to have *all* of
their favourite RL elements, such as endless replayability, but no-one
should feel limited by those expectations.

My project plan cuts the game into two phases, the first being very
purely Rogue-like and the second being more CRPG with roguelike
elements. I know there's a lot of delicate balancing of those elements
to be done, but I am convinced that blending of genres can be done well.

Thankyou for posting, and I hope you stick around here. Or at least drop
in from time to time.

--
--jude hungerford.
Anonymous
September 3, 2005 8:43:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At Sat, 3 Sep 2005 12:34:08 +0100,
Skeksis wrote:

>> At least you can count on some kind of justice and equal treating. I mean
>> as long as you're not behaving unacceptably. ;) 
> Indeed. But to have to wade through persnickety comments about minor issues
> of diction (see previous posts) seems less friendly (and relevant) than any
> form of argument over merit of ideas.

Well, we are free to comment on any part of the message, or even stray off
topic and include anything that comes to our minds. Welcome to the usenet.

> And, incidentally, thanks for commenting. Friendly argument follows:
:) 

> If this horror game were slower paced (as specified) rather than the usual
> hack-fest, I think the text could be far more important. I'd even argue that
> it is critical to commercial games such as Silent Hill. There's something
> chilling about the simple mechanic of seeing something, investigating
> (clicking) and seeing:
> "It is a corpse. There is something wrong with his face."

To make it slow paced, you've got to provide something interesting to stop
about. Just increasing the difficulty level, so that every little move
becomes important isn't usually sufficient -- players will play at their
own pace and complain about insta-deaths.

You need a way to make every move more interesting, to make the greater
amount of time spent on it pay off -- and pay off in terms of
entertainment, not just game mechanics.

I suppose that in commercial games you mention it's worthwhile to spend
some more time reading messages and looking around, because you uncover
additional fragments of plot and other secrets this way -- so you're
entertained.

When it comes to automaticaly generated content, however, I've got
problems imagining the reward for the careful player. Any secrets,
fragments of plot, easter eggs, etc. are fun only the first time you
encounter them, and they are not fun at all for the game author.
I think the most important feature of roguelike games is that the author
himself can enjoy them.

> In addition, I know when I play nethack I 'listen' out for shopkeepers,
> rock-moles and dwarfs and many other messages. It doesn't strike me as too
> much of a stretch to think that by throwing in a few extra lines (since
> horror is more about anticipation than revelation), and flavouring others in
> a more horrific manner you'll end up with a richer experience.

Well, the sounds in NetHack work because they have in-game meaning (and
because there isn't too much of them too).

> Let's be honest, if you want slow play, and not too many monsters, you're
> going to be reading, 'l'ooking, and otherwise interacting with the
> environment. A lot. Your feedback will probably be textual.


So, I think the first and most important problem to solve is to find
the 'reward', the content that will make slow and careful playing fun,
but won't get repetitive fast, so that you can make the game slow-paced in
the first place.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(@a) 3 Be?
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
September 3, 2005 10:43:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

[snip]

> To make it slow paced, you've got to provide something interesting to stop
> about. Just increasing the difficulty level, so that every little move
> becomes important isn't usually sufficient -- players will play at their
> own pace and complain about insta-deaths.
>
> You need a way to make every move more interesting, to make the greater
> amount of time spent on it pay off -- and pay off in terms of
> entertainment, not just game mechanics.
>
> I suppose that in commercial games you mention it's worthwhile to spend
> some more time reading messages and looking around, because you uncover
> additional fragments of plot and other secrets this way -- so you're
> entertained.
>
> When it comes to automaticaly generated content, however, I've got
> problems imagining the reward for the careful player. Any secrets,
> fragments of plot, easter eggs, etc. are fun only the first time you
> encounter them, and they are not fun at all for the game author.
> I think the most important feature of roguelike games is that the author
> himself can enjoy them.

Absolutely. If we take the McGuyver model suggested in another post, perhaps
every level features at least two whole 'tools' worth of pieces giving a
reason to search the level. There are bogus item pieces, too. So you might
find yourself hoping for 'super-flame-unit' (made from a gas canister, piece
of hose, lighter), but you're missing the lighter. You're searching for lots
and lots of finite tool-pieces. The interest comes from knowing what those
ultimate tools are, when to bother with them (no point on early levels) and
showing off your knowledge.

Play becomes:
- enter room
- eliminate immediate danger (if possible)
- ransack room
- construct tools from the bits you find (ideally from a nice easy
menu showing you what you are able to construct at any time).

50% of tools components could even be secret (in the same way that unicorn
functionality in Nethack is not exactly obvious), or require 'workshops'
forcing you to actively use locations.

Overall, this reminds me a little of RanaRama - you constructed all your
spells from 'bits' which the enemies spat out when they died. You used to
level-dive for the powerful bits, then come back, set up the spells you
wanted and kick serious ass with your limited period use of
'SuperZappyWhizzoThing'.

Mixing the Cthulian thing in here, the major point of the game could be to
find fragments of magical inscriptions. In amongst the tool pieces you find
lots and lots of rumour-style scraps of paper (e.g. "A newspaper scrap with
news of a body found in a stream 2 years ago") which occasionally hold part
of a design. Completed designs allow you to open gateways into other
dimensions.

[snip]
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 2:34:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Sat, 3 Sep 2005 11:16:09 +0100, "Skeksis" <dene@> wrote:

>> The real difficulty isn't in generating text, but in getting players to
>> read it. We've got people here who don't even 'l'ook at new monsters.
>>
><snips>
>> All you've done is make the player hit the space bar (or whatever
>> advances the messages in your game) more, leading to *less* reading of
>> the actual text.

>(blinks in amazement)
>
>You mean you've never played a roguelike where you see a description of
>what's on the floor as you move around? I'm sure i could find a whole bunch
>of examples.

Of course. My comments are based on the behavior of players of existing
RLs, based both on personal experience and over a decade of
participation in newsgroups devoted to the subject. RL players quickly
figure out what's flavor text and what they can skip, what they can just
skim over, and what they actually should read. Expecting to simply make
a more text-heavy game and have all of that text read is naive and
doomed to failure.

>I really must say that the level of supercilous (and frankly superfluous)
>commentary on what was supposed to be a fun and hopefully enthusiastic post
>has done nothing to encourage discussion, nor further the cause of
>roguelikes or their development.

And you've wasted almost as much bandwidth bitching about how other
people post as it took to make those comments. Not to mention that all
of those comments actually addressed your post. If you want to fail to
learn from the feedback you get, that's your choice.

>I consider every post so far to have utterly missed the point, and I am left
>genuinely regretting having posted at all.

Consider that perhaps you are missing the point of the replies. You seem
more interested in acted wounded than honestly learning from what others
have to say.

>If you wish to encourage discussion I suggest being a little friendlier.

If you really think that merely pointing out difficulties in a suggested
action is unfriendly, I suggest you immediately remove your newsreader
from your computer and never come near Usenet again, because you aren't
ready for when the unfriendly folks show up.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 2:34:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Sat, 3 Sep 2005 12:34:08 +0100, "Skeksis" <dene@> wrote:

>> At least you can count on some kind of justice and equal treating. I mean
>> as long as you're not behaving unacceptably. ;) 
>
>Indeed. But to have to wade through persnickety comments about minor issues
>of diction (see previous posts) seems less friendly (and relevant) than any
>form of argument over merit of ideas.

Funny that you chose to respond with your objections to a post
addressing the fundamental difficulties of your ideas then, instead of
one of the posts on grammar. And if you think grammar isn't relevant to
discussions of text messages, you are wrong.

>In addition, I know when I play nethack I 'listen' out for shopkeepers,
>rock-moles and dwarfs and many other messages. It doesn't strike me as too
>much of a stretch to think that by throwing in a few extra lines (since
>horror is more about anticipation than revelation)

You are making a huge assumption in thinking that text is the best way
to deliver that anticipation. If you want to go that way, go the IF
route and just use text. In a RL, the map is the primary means of
displaying information, the character data along the side or at the
bottom of the map in the secondary means, and the message window is just
for the stuff that can't be abstracted into these. There have been a
number of discussion on how to alter the map display to create tension
along the lines of horror.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
September 5, 2005 2:34:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 03 Sep 2005 16:43:04 GMT, Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@
sheep.prv.pl> wrote:

>I think the most important feature of roguelike games is that the author
>himself can enjoy them.

I'd say it is fundamental if you want to call your game a roguelike.
That was the driving force behind the creation of Rogue.

Of course, who dares disagree with the Sheep? For he is thick with the
wool of wisdom.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
!