Modern dungeon exploration

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I was wondering...

If there was some kind of roguelike dungeon existing in the real world,
and you'd have to choose a hero to enter it to carry his mission, and
his equipment too, what would you choose?

For those who need a story to get a better picture, try this (I'm not
a novel writer and don't have as good imagination as Hajo, so forgive me):

The spy sattelites have detected a large underground network of WW2
bunkers and fortifications. The bunkers are so well hidden, nobody
found them before. They are located on enemy terriority (well, not exactly
enemy, as there's no war going on, but the country is not very friendly
and it's impossible to send any large group of people to investigate).

The bunkers are supposed to be an underground laboratory and weapon
factory. Somewhere on the lowest levels there are supposed to be the
blueprints of 'wunderwaffe', a technologically advanced weapon that was
never used. You want them, and you want them bad. Furthermore, there were
some leaks in your security, so the other countries also suspect the
existence of the laboratory -- but they don't know where to look.

You can only send one man to retrieve the blueprints -- any larger group
would only attract unwanted attention. Once he enters the bunkers, he
cannot come out -- the other country's spie sattelites would spot him
easily. He must carry all of his equipment on him -- no way to transport
more than he can carry.

The sattelite scans confirm the existence of various life forms in the
bunkers -- and those are more than just rats and bats. Aside from wild
animals, there are some mutants created in the biological labs. There can
also be descendants of the guards, living in the facility, not knowing
that the war is over.

You can assume it's like the first dozen levels of Angband.

Now, the question -- what proffession and equipment would you need?

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
) 3 Snap!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .

 

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Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
> I was wondering...
>
> If there was some kind of roguelike dungeon existing in the real world,
> and you'd have to choose a hero to enter it to carry his mission, and
> his equipment too, what would you choose?
>
> For those who need a story to get a better picture, try this (I'm not
> a novel writer and don't have as good imagination as Hajo, so forgive me):
>
> The spy sattelites have detected a large underground network of WW2
> bunkers and fortifications. The bunkers are so well hidden, nobody
> found them before. They are located on enemy terriority (well, not exactly
> enemy, as there's no war going on, but the country is not very friendly
> and it's impossible to send any large group of people to investigate).
>
> The bunkers are supposed to be an underground laboratory and weapon
> factory. Somewhere on the lowest levels there are supposed to be the
> blueprints of 'wunderwaffe', a technologically advanced weapon that was
> never used. You want them, and you want them bad. Furthermore, there were
> some leaks in your security, so the other countries also suspect the
> existence of the laboratory -- but they don't know where to look.
>
> You can only send one man to retrieve the blueprints -- any larger group
> would only attract unwanted attention. Once he enters the bunkers, he
> cannot come out -- the other country's spie sattelites would spot him
> easily. He must carry all of his equipment on him -- no way to transport
> more than he can carry.
>
> The sattelite scans confirm the existence of various life forms in the
> bunkers -- and those are more than just rats and bats. Aside from wild
> animals, there are some mutants created in the biological labs. There can
> also be descendants of the guards, living in the facility, not knowing
> that the war is over.
>
> You can assume it's like the first dozen levels of Angband.
>
> Now, the question -- what proffession and equipment would you need?

I'll leave profession to others and just dream about equipment a bit.

Data generation equipment -- minimally photography, perhaps sound,
ideally video. Hardened against physical impact, etc. Biomeasuring
equipment.

Data storage equipment.

Physical storage equipment -- I assume a backpack with lots of pockets.

Storage belt.

If the storyline/game balance permit, equipment for communication with
home base. Presumably the storyline above would NOT permit this for the
most part, but perhaps there could be some short time frames where spy
networks would have reasonable assurance that communication would not
lead to the discovery of the base (leading to a text "cut scene" of some
type perhaps). Once you were "at the goal line", HQ might decide an
encrypted transmission would be OK no matter what.

A watch.

Small, concealed weaponry.

Rappeling and spelunking equipment.

K-rations.

First aid kit.

e.

 

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Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
> I was wondering...
>
> If there was some kind of roguelike dungeon existing in the real world,
> and you'd have to choose a hero to enter it to carry his mission, and
> his equipment too, what would you choose?
>
> For those who need a story to get a better picture, try this (I'm not
> a novel writer and don't have as good imagination as Hajo, so forgive me):
>
> The spy sattelites have detected a large underground network of WW2
> bunkers and fortifications. The bunkers are so well hidden, nobody
> found them before. They are located on enemy terriority (well, not exactly
> enemy, as there's no war going on, but the country is not very friendly
> and it's impossible to send any large group of people to investigate).

I am glad you leave the country of origin for the roguelike hero undefined.

>
> The bunkers are supposed to be an underground laboratory and weapon
> factory. Somewhere on the lowest levels there are supposed to be the
> blueprints of 'wunderwaffe', a technologically advanced weapon that was
> never used. You want them, and you want them bad. Furthermore, there were
> some leaks in your security, so the other countries also suspect the
> existence of the laboratory -- but they don't know where to look.
>
> You can only send one man to retrieve the blueprints -- any larger group
> would only attract unwanted attention. Once he enters the bunkers, he
> cannot come out -- the other country's spie sattelites would spot him
> easily. He must carry all of his equipment on him -- no way to transport
> more than he can carry.
>
> The sattelite scans confirm the existence of various life forms in the
> bunkers -- and those are more than just rats and bats. Aside from wild
> animals, there are some mutants created in the biological labs. There can
> also be descendants of the guards, living in the facility, not knowing
> that the war is over.
>
> You can assume it's like the first dozen levels of Angband.

I haven't ever played beyond the first 2 levels of any *band, so this
does me no good.

>
> Now, the question -- what proffession and equipment would you need?
>

if Military Intelligence (a contradiction in terms, but no matter), who
I assume are the ones wanting these blueprints, assume most of the
inhabitants to be hostile to anyone entering the underground complex,
I'd say get a guy from the French Foreign Legion (or the Special Forces
of your choice) and give him a knife. Or if you wanted it to be a sure
thing, a knife, a few clips of rifle ammo, an assault rifle, a couple of
clips of 9mm ammo, an MP5SD, a few rations, and quite a bit of water.

For a less risky solution (shooting at things in an underground complex
is always risky, no matter what Special Forces training you have -
especially with all those old explosives down there having become
unstable with age), you could look at the inhabitants of the complex and
draw a couple of conclusions.

Conclusion 1: Rats and bats are wusses. They may swarm all over you,
though, so bring a bag full of tasty poison pellets along and spread
them in front of the rats. If you lie still on the floor with exposed
skin covered, and wear some kind of heavy weave fabric, or leather, bats
probably couldn't do you any significant harm even if they wanted to.
And they'd get tired and run away.

Conclusion 2: The human inhabitants, those descended from the guards,
probably either have a way of avoiding contact with any dangerous
mutants, or an effective way to repel said - they've survived for over
50 years. Probably over 60. This means that the person you send to
retrieve the blueprints must:
a) speak fluent German (assuming german bunker here, from your mention
of 'wunderwaffe').
b) be a total WW2 buff.
c) bring along a PDA with all the code books Germany ever used, an
Enigma emulator, all the now-declassified documents it can fit, and
specifications on all machinery most likely being used in the bunker.
d) be good at talking to people.
e) bring rations enough for a month or so, some actual water, and some
device to purify water (because all the things and people and critters
in there have to have access to *some* source of water.

 

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At 24 Aug 2005 12:09:42 GMT,
Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:

> The sattelite scans confirm the existence of various life forms in the
> bunkers -- and those are more than just rats and bats. Aside from wild
> animals, there are some mutants created in the biological labs. There can
> also be descendants of the guards, living in the facility, not knowing
> that the war is over.

I think I need to add a few words, because this description didn't make it
hostile enough

Obviously, the human survivors live in moderately safe parts of the
facility, and developed startegies to get their food and water and to
defend against all hostile creatures. The idea with the knowledge of
german language and all the german codes and passwords is great -- however
it's not guaranteed to work (I think a great novel could be written based
on this theme -- something like Brian Aldis's "Non Stop") -- the facility
was super-secret and isolated.

Other creatures also need certain things to survive -- but those might be
very different from what human needs -- they are mutants and adapt very
fast.

The environment can be different in different parts of the facility -- and
out hero is probably supposed to explore places that were abandoned or
even cut off and sealed.

But note also that his mission is not to kill everything in sight or to
"clean" the facility -- he only has to retrieve certain materials. Based
on the signs and topology, he could probably search much more effectively
than checking the whole map.


If it's possible, I'd like to know how you imagine such a person -- what
he wears, what skills he has, how he's supposed to behave in various
situations.

Funny how nobody mentioned a flashlight
A sleeping bag would be probably a good idea, for example (oh, why there
are no nullsacks in the real world?).

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(TT) 3 Waaah!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .

 

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Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
> I was wondering...
>
> If there was some kind of roguelike dungeon existing in the real world,
> and you'd have to choose a hero to enter it to carry his mission, and
> his equipment too, what would you choose?

Well... no sane real life person would go on a mission with a death
probability anywhere near as a roguelike. If they'de be forced to
do so, they would probably low level powertrain ... for example,
build a hut near the entrance, and shoot everything that comes
out. If nothing comes out for a few days, advance a few meters.
Repeat.

Better : get a team. If you can't bring your own team, use
relations to buy an enemy team.

Profession and equipment : You don't want to use firearms
against small targets. Perhaps use a machete for that.
Pistol with some clips for larger enemies, with "Schalldämper"
(sonic reducer?) of course. Larger weapons are inpratical
for small rooms.

Or just do it the hard way : Protection suit, and a few
cannisters of poison gas...

 

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Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
> At 24 Aug 2005 12:09:42 GMT,
> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
>
>
>>The sattelite scans confirm the existence of various life forms in the
>>bunkers -- and those are more than just rats and bats. Aside from wild
>>animals, there are some mutants created in the biological labs. There can
>>also be descendants of the guards, living in the facility, not knowing
>>that the war is over.
>
>
> I think I need to add a few words, because this description didn't make it
> hostile enough
>
> Obviously, the human survivors live in moderately safe parts of the
> facility, and developed startegies to get their food and water and to
> defend against all hostile creatures. The idea with the knowledge of
> german language and all the german codes and passwords is great -- however
> it's not guaranteed to work (I think a great novel could be written based
> on this theme -- something like Brian Aldis's "Non Stop") -- the facility
> was super-secret and isolated.

Good point.

>
> Other creatures also need certain things to survive -- but those might be
> very different from what human needs -- they are mutants and adapt very
> fast.

Yes, well, we are all mutants.

>
> The environment can be different in different parts of the facility -- and
> out hero is probably supposed to explore places that were abandoned or
> even cut off and sealed.

Good point.

>
> But note also that his mission is not to kill everything in sight or to
> "clean" the facility -- he only has to retrieve certain materials. Based
> on the signs and topology, he could probably search much more effectively
> than checking the whole map.

Another good reason to know German then.

>
> If it's possible, I'd like to know how you imagine such a person -- what
> he wears, what skills he has, how he's supposed to behave in various
> situations.

Okay, a more in-depth (than the special forces person with general
combat gear) and "solo" (than the Human Interaction guy) approach to the
whole thing...

You'd want a person with military training and probably a machine
pistol. MP5SD would probably be ideal for most encounters - it has an
integrated sound supressor, a slightly longer barrel than most pistols,
but is still maneuverable enough for close encounters. Also, even
traveling subsonically, 9mm pistol rounds carry enough of a punch to
bring serious pain to any unarmoured target - and these Germans and
Mutants aren't likely to have developed and manufactured kevlar all on
their lonesome, have they?

Poison is still my best bet against rats. Preferrably poison that also
makes the rat's carcass poisonous.

Bats - if they're Mad Mutant Killer Bats, I'd bring a shotgun.
Preferrably sawn-off and with one of those rotating magazines. If they
aren't, the method I mentioned in my earlier post should be good enough.

Other gear carried - Food and water supplies. Preferrably in hard-shell
airtight boxes, so they can be left lying about without mutants or rats
or other creatures taking too much of an interest in the contents. (The
idea being walking into the complex carrying the absolute max you could
move about with, then dumping most of it near the entrance in a "base camp".

Erik had great ideas as well, and expanding on them I thought of some
sort of multi-purpose recording device, preferrably with an inertial
navigation system and the ability to draw rough 3D maps based on the
surroundings. Some sort of ultrasonic (above bat-range) sonar (or
possibly actual radar - for the accuracy needed, those units can be made
quite small now. Of course, some natural materials are rather
radar-transparent.) to find out what the surroundings looked like, for
the map (this could double as the proximity sensor for sleepy-time).

Batteries to power all this equipment, of course. Likely military
research has made some sort of fuel cell system viable already though.

Basic climbing gear, possibly integrated into the
uniform/armour/whatever being worn, with rope and some "friend" style
fastening devices as well.

A handful of C4 blocks (and detonators) - one never knows when stuff
needs to be blown up.

While speaking of blowing things up, grenades are rather versatile and
easy to use. Quick booby traps, and handy when outnumbered.

Another "consumable" that would be very handy would be breaklights - if
the proximity alarm goes off while sleeping, you won't have time to put
on those NV goggles (see below).

Your generic Big Knife, for all those situations where it could come in
handy.

Some easily concealed weapons (again, thanks Erik) for those
taken-prisoner scenarios.

First Aid kit (and again, thanks Erik).

And, as Erik says, a large backpack and a utility/storage belt would be
neccessary.

For more equipment, see below.


Skills.

Military special forces training takes care of very many of the skills
one would need. Silent movement, room clearing (though this is most
often done in teams - most special forces are team-based, come to think
of it... hmm...), booby traps (placement and removal), combat inside
buildings...

In addition, you would need skills to navigate underground complexes
without getting lost (a 3D map can only help you so much, if you even
still / ever had it), skills to recognise different speices of animal
and know whether they are agressive / edible / likely to lead you to a
water source if you wait around / etc., language skills to read and
speak German, and science skills to recognise the stuff you're actually
looking for once you actually find it.


> Funny how nobody mentioned a flashlight

That's a good point. You have to wonder how the people still living
underground are keeping their living space lit though -- our keen
eyesight is some of what gives us a marked advantage over many animals.
Nuclear power is the only thing I'd imagine could last that long, and I
don't find it likely that Germany developed nuclear power before they
developed a working nuclear bomb. Bombs are easy compared to regulated
power, after all.

Also, we all know that things become *much* scarier if you bring a
flashlight. You only see a small part of the room at a time. I would
rather bring state-of-the-art night vision goggles, and for absolutely
pitch black areas, you could turn on a LED in the NV goggles that would
illuminate the area sufficiently. Preferrably NV goggles with either
inline IR, or a separate IR mode.

> A sleeping bag would be probably a good idea, for example (oh, why there
> are no nullsacks in the real world?)

Nullsacks?
But yes, a sleeping bag might be a good idea. Ideally also some sort of
portable alarm system, in case hostile creatures came close...

 

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At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:02:53 +0200,
Elethiomel wrote:

> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
>> At 24 Aug 2005 12:09:42 GMT,
>> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:

>> Other creatures also need certain things to survive -- but those might be
>> very different from what human needs -- they are mutants and adapt very
>> fast.
> Yes, well, we are all mutants.

But those ones mutate at unnaturally high rate.

> You'd want a person with military training and probably a machine
> pistol. MP5SD would probably be ideal for most encounters - it has an
> integrated sound supressor, a slightly longer barrel than most pistols,
> but is still maneuverable enough for close encounters. Also, even
> traveling subsonically, 9mm pistol rounds carry enough of a punch to
> bring serious pain to any unarmoured target - and these Germans and
> Mutants aren't likely to have developed and manufactured kevlar all on
> their lonesome, have they?

Nice. Maybe some sort of airgun? They are usually much quiter and have
lighter ammo. And the projectiles can always be poisoned (altrough you're
never sure how mutants will react to this. On the other hand, there are
many poisons deadly to any carbon-based bioforms).

> Poison is still my best bet against rats. Preferrably poison that also
> makes the rat's carcass poisonous.

Maybe poisonous gas?

> Bats - if they're Mad Mutant Killer Bats, I'd bring a shotgun.
> Preferrably sawn-off and with one of those rotating magazines. If they
> aren't, the method I mentioned in my earlier post should be good enough.

I don't think that even enourmous, mutated bat could hurt even lightly
armored human that's prepared. Altrough shotgun sounds really cool
(especially one with a drum magazine).

> Other gear carried - Food and water supplies.

I've heard about water-purifying chemicals, in form of pills, but I'm not
sure whether there's really something like this or is it fantasy. They
surely woud't be able to neutralize all possible chemicals, but there's
are chances they take care of the most common ones.

> Preferrably in hard-shell
> airtight boxes, so they can be left lying about without mutants or rats
> or other creatures taking too much of an interest in the contents. (The
> idea being walking into the complex carrying the absolute max you could
> move about with, then dumping most of it near the entrance in a "base camp".

Good point. You'd need a number of those containers, so that you can move
some of your belongings and leave the rest.

> Erik had great ideas as well, and expanding on them I thought of some
> sort of multi-purpose recording device, preferrably with an inertial
> navigation system and the ability to draw rough 3D maps based on the
> surroundings. Some sort of ultrasonic (above bat-range) sonar (or
> possibly actual radar - for the accuracy needed, those units can be made
> quite small now. Of course, some natural materials are rather
> radar-transparent.) to find out what the surroundings looked like, for
> the map (this could double as the proximity sensor for sleepy-time).

You could use a laser-based scanner (probably ultra-violet or infra-red,
so that's not easily visible), that would kick in every several steps and
make a 3d map of your surroundings.

Shame you cannot use GPS.

The device could have a large memory with all sort of technical
information you could need but don't have time to learn.

Also some basic sensors -- vibration, radiation, chemical substances in
the air, temperature, maybe a program for spectral analysis of materials
hit with special laser probe, etc.

> Batteries to power all this equipment, of course. Likely military
> research has made some sort of fuel cell system viable already though.

Also, some sort of emergency power source in case the batteries are
destroyed.

> Basic climbing gear, possibly integrated into the
> uniform/armour/whatever being worn, with rope and some "friend" style
> fastening devices as well.

> A handful of C4 blocks (and detonators) - one never knows when stuff
> needs to be blown up.

A set of basic tools (including crowbar, wire cutters, maybe
a mini-drill). Chemicals to get rid of rust and dirt from mechanisms.
Blowtorch with some fuel (there are miniaturised ones which use
very effective fuel). Lockpicking tools.
Maybe some materials (light but strong fabrics, strings, glue) you
could use to build whatever you need at the moment.

> While speaking of blowing things up, grenades are rather versatile and
> easy to use. Quick booby traps, and handy when outnumbered.

I think gas grenades could come in pretty handy. Of course you also
need a gas mask (and probably also some oxygen for the cases when your
filters are not enough).

> Another "consumable" that would be very handy would be breaklights - if
> the proximity alarm goes off while sleeping, you won't have time to put
> on those NV goggles (see below).

I think you need some sort of light source anyways -- for camping at
least. People go insane after several days in total darkness (on the other
hand, people who live near the north pole might have other experiences).

Also some cooking gear, so that you can save your rations, or just make
them more edible.

> Your generic Big Knife, for all those situations where it could come in
> handy.
>
> Some easily concealed weapons (again, thanks Erik) for those
> taken-prisoner scenarios.
>
> First Aid kit (and again, thanks Erik).

I think you'd need a really well-prepared and good First Aid kit,
including various drugs and stimulants for extreme situations.

> And, as Erik says, a large backpack and a utility/storage belt would be
> neccessary.

You'd probably also need some spare bags -- they always come in handy.

> For more equipment, see below.
>
>
> Skills.
>
> Military special forces training takes care of very many of the skills
> one would need. Silent movement, room clearing (though this is most
> often done in teams - most special forces are team-based, come to think
> of it... hmm...), booby traps (placement and removal), combat inside
> buildings...
>
> In addition, you would need skills to navigate underground complexes
> without getting lost (a 3D map can only help you so much, if you even
> still / ever had it), skills to recognise different speices of animal
> and know whether they are agressive / edible / likely to lead you to a
> water source if you wait around / etc., language skills to read and
> speak German, and science skills to recognise the stuff you're actually
> looking for once you actually find it.

Seems like some caves-exploration experiences would come in handy.

You'd obviously need the skills to use all of your equipment effectively.
Also, not so obviously, the skills and knowledge to repair or substitute
them when necessary.

You'd technical knowledge about the technology and standards popular at
the time the facility was built.

>> Funny how nobody mentioned a flashlight
> That's a good point. You have to wonder how the people still living
> underground are keeping their living space lit though -- our keen
> eyesight is some of what gives us a marked advantage over many animals.

They'd probably use torches, oil lamps and the like. Also some more
advanced gas or karbid lamps were popular at the time, and the facility is
supposed to have very large supplies.

> Nuclear power is the only thing I'd imagine could last that long, and I
> don't find it likely that Germany developed nuclear power before they
> developed a working nuclear bomb. Bombs are easy compared to regulated
> power, after all.

It doesn't have to be Germany, and the guard's descendants don't have to
be civilized anymore.
On the other hand, there can be storage rooms with vacuum-sealed machines
and parts.

> Also, we all know that things become *much* scarier if you bring a
> flashlight.

You can bring a full-featured lamp, that will shine bright and have an
additional advantage of scaring away most creatures. Probably a chemical
lamp, as it's usually lighter and doesn;t need batteries.

> You only see a small part of the room at a time. I would
> rather bring state-of-the-art night vision goggles, and for absolutely
> pitch black areas, you could turn on a LED in the NV goggles that would
> illuminate the area sufficiently. Preferrably NV goggles with either
> inline IR, or a separate IR mode.

Googles come in handy when sneaking or scouting, but I can't imagine
wearing them all the time.

>> A sleeping bag would be probably a good idea, for example (oh, why there
>> are no nullsacks in the real world?)

> Nullsacks?

It's a device taken form a book "Redliners", by David Drake. It's a kind
of sleeping bag, totally muffling all sounds, radiation, etc.
It's matte black from the outside, keeps you warm and comfy because it
keeps your own heat inside.

> But yes, a sleeping bag might be a good idea. Ideally also some sort of
> portable alarm system, in case hostile creatures came close...

Good camping equipment can keep you in better shape. It's not
combat/exploration all the time.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(Xx) 3 ...
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
> At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:02:53 +0200,
> Elethiomel wrote:
>
>
>>Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
>>
>>>At 24 Aug 2005 12:09:42 GMT,
>>> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
>
>
>>>Other creatures also need certain things to survive -- but those might be
>>>very different from what human needs -- they are mutants and adapt very
>>>fast.
>>
>>Yes, well, we are all mutants.
>
>
> But those ones mutate at unnaturally high rate.

Probably plausible. Everything and its grandmother causes cancer, and
that's mutation. Super high mutation causing chemicals might exist.

>>You'd want a person with military training and probably a machine
>>pistol. MP5SD would probably be ideal for most encounters - it has an
>>integrated sound supressor, a slightly longer barrel than most pistols,
>>but is still maneuverable enough for close encounters. Also, even
>>traveling subsonically, 9mm pistol rounds carry enough of a punch to
>>bring serious pain to any unarmoured target - and these Germans and
>>Mutants aren't likely to have developed and manufactured kevlar all on
>>their lonesome, have they?
>
> Nice. Maybe some sort of airgun? They are usually much quiter and have
> lighter ammo. And the projectiles can always be poisoned (altrough you're
> never sure how mutants will react to this. On the other hand, there are
> many poisons deadly to any carbon-based bioforms).

Yes, a sort of airgun could work. You should hear how quiet the MP5SD is
though; all you really hear is the springs and stuff moving inside the
gun, and a tiny "putt" when the bullet exits. Also, airguns aren't
normally fully automatic.

A muffled, spring-loaded "crossbow" would probably be quietest of all.
Or just stuff you throw, like shuriken or other throwing knives.

>
>>Poison is still my best bet against rats. Preferrably poison that also
>>makes the rat's carcass poisonous.
>
> Maybe poisonous gas?

Good idea. You'd have to be careful about ventilation ducts and such
though, so the gas didn't spread into adjacent areas where you don't
expect it and thus isn't wearing your mask. (Those things are way
difficult to breathe in!)

>>Bats - if they're Mad Mutant Killer Bats, I'd bring a shotgun.
>>Preferrably sawn-off and with one of those rotating magazines. If they
>>aren't, the method I mentioned in my earlier post should be good enough.
>
> I don't think that even enourmous, mutated bat could hurt even lightly
> armored human that's prepared. Altrough shotgun sounds really cool
> (especially one with a drum magazine).

Well, if there are lots and lots of them, they might be able to hurt
you. And yes, shotgun is nice for this, but I think too large, heavy,
and otherwise unwieldy to justify bringing along *just* for bats. Poison
gas would work here too. The reason why I didn't suggest poison for bats
was that I couldn't figure a way to get the poison into them. Didn't
think of gas, stupid me.


>>Other gear carried - Food and water supplies.
>
> I've heard about water-purifying chemicals, in form of pills, but I'm not
> sure whether there's really something like this or is it fantasy. They
> surely woud't be able to neutralize all possible chemicals, but there's
> are chances they take care of the most common ones.

Well, you do have water filters which will get rid of *most* ugly stuff
in water (they can even be used to make bad vodka into better vodka, see
http://www.ohmygoditburns.com/wordpress/index.php?p=4 ), and with one of
those mystery water purification pills I think most water found
underground would be safe to drink. You could bring along a spectrometer
to test this, but that's probably too heavy, and also overkill.

>>Preferrably in hard-shell
>>airtight boxes, so they can be left lying about without mutants or rats
>>or other creatures taking too much of an interest in the contents. (The
>>idea being walking into the complex carrying the absolute max you could
>>move about with, then dumping most of it near the entrance in a "base camp".
>
> Good point. You'd need a number of those containers, so that you can move
> some of your belongings and leave the rest.

Yeah, that's why I said boxes.


[portable multi-recorder with sonar and 3D mapmaking capability]
> You could use a laser-based scanner (probably ultra-violet or infra-red,
> so that's not easily visible), that would kick in every several steps and
> make a 3d map of your surroundings.

Good point.

> Shame you cannot use GPS.

Yeah.

> The device could have a large memory with all sort of technical
> information you could need but don't have time to learn.

Good point. It'd be like a super-PDA.

> Also some basic sensors -- vibration, radiation, chemical substances in
> the air, temperature, maybe a program for spectral analysis of materials
> hit with special laser probe, etc.

Now we're getting to NASA Mars Probe level tech, but I suppose that if
your country *really* wants this information, that's okay.

>>Batteries to power all this equipment, of course. Likely military
>>research has made some sort of fuel cell system viable already though.
>
> Also, some sort of emergency power source in case the batteries are
> destroyed.

Good point. But what sort should that be? A tiny generator with a handle
like those manual mixmasters?

>>Basic climbing gear, possibly integrated into the
>>uniform/armour/whatever being worn, with rope and some "friend" style
>>fastening devices as well.
>>A handful of C4 blocks (and detonators) - one never knows when stuff
>>needs to be blown up.
>
> A set of basic tools (including crowbar, wire cutters, maybe
> a mini-drill). Chemicals to get rid of rust and dirt from mechanisms.
> Blowtorch with some fuel (there are miniaturised ones which use
> very effective fuel). Lockpicking tools.
> Maybe some materials (light but strong fabrics, strings, glue) you
> could use to build whatever you need at the moment.

All those are good, and probably light weight (except the crowbar). And
don't forget oil for your guns.

>>While speaking of blowing things up, grenades are rather versatile and
>>easy to use. Quick booby traps, and handy when outnumbered.
>
> I think gas grenades could come in pretty handy. Of course you also
> need a gas mask (and probably also some oxygen for the cases when your
> filters are not enough).

Yeah - I think a gas mask would be a good idea anyway. Who knows what
the air quality is like in some of the sealed-off parts of the base you
might want to pass through.

>>Another "consumable" that would be very handy would be breaklights - if
>>the proximity alarm goes off while sleeping, you won't have time to put
>>on those NV goggles (see below).
>
> I think you need some sort of light source anyways -- for camping at
> least. People go insane after several days in total darkness (on the other
> hand, people who live near the north pole might have other experiences).

I'm from Norway. I don't think I'd go mad in total darkness... Just
rather sleepy. A good gas light like you suggested later in your post
would be good, I think. Though I'm feeling we're starting to really pile
on the weight here.

>
> Also some cooking gear, so that you can save your rations, or just make
> them more edible.

Again, weight issues.


>>First Aid kit (and again, thanks Erik).
> I think you'd need a really well-prepared and good First Aid kit,
> including various drugs and stimulants for extreme situations.

Yeah, I suppose so. But again, it can't be too heavy or bulky.

>>And, as Erik says, a large backpack and a utility/storage belt would be
>>neccessary.
> You'd probably also need some spare bags -- they always come in handy.

Yes, extra bags would be handy - but you will get empty boxes from food
and water consumption pretty quick.

>>Skills.
>>
>>Military special forces training takes care of very many of the skills
>>one would need. Silent movement, room clearing (though this is most
>>often done in teams - most special forces are team-based, come to think
>>of it... hmm...), booby traps (placement and removal), combat inside
>>buildings...
>>
>>In addition, you would need skills to navigate underground complexes
>>without getting lost (a 3D map can only help you so much, if you even
>>still / ever had it), skills to recognise different speices of animal
>>and know whether they are agressive / edible / likely to lead you to a
>>water source if you wait around / etc., language skills to read and
>>speak German, and science skills to recognise the stuff you're actually
>>looking for once you actually find it.
>
>
> Seems like some caves-exploration experiences would come in handy.

Yes, I'd think so.

> You'd obviously need the skills to use all of your equipment effectively.
> Also, not so obviously, the skills and knowledge to repair or substitute
> them when necessary.

*nod* good point.

> You'd technical knowledge about the technology and standards popular at
> the time the facility was built.

That's why I suggested in my "social engineer" persona that he be a
total WW2 buff.


>>>Funny how nobody mentioned a flashlight
>>
>>That's a good point. You have to wonder how the people still living
>>underground are keeping their living space lit though -- our keen
>>eyesight is some of what gives us a marked advantage over many animals.
>
> They'd probably use torches, oil lamps and the like. Also some more
> advanced gas or karbid lamps were popular at the time, and the facility is
> supposed to have very large supplies.

60 years of lamp oil? 60 years of burnable material? How is this
underground complex kept with fresh air, if there's no power to fans or
such - and especially if people are burning stuff there?

>
>>Nuclear power is the only thing I'd imagine could last that long, and I
>>don't find it likely that Germany developed nuclear power before they
>>developed a working nuclear bomb. Bombs are easy compared to regulated
>>power, after all.
>
> It doesn't have to be Germany, and the guard's descendants don't have to
> be civilized anymore.
> On the other hand, there can be storage rooms with vacuum-sealed machines
> and parts.

Good points.

>
>>Also, we all know that things become *much* scarier if you bring a
>>flashlight.
>
> You can bring a full-featured lamp, that will shine bright and have an
> additional advantage of scaring away most creatures. Probably a chemical
> lamp, as it's usually lighter and doesn;t need batteries.

Good point.

>
>>You only see a small part of the room at a time. I would
>>rather bring state-of-the-art night vision goggles, and for absolutely
>>pitch black areas, you could turn on a LED in the NV goggles that would
>>illuminate the area sufficiently. Preferrably NV goggles with either
>>inline IR, or a separate IR mode.
>
> Googles come in handy when sneaking or scouting, but I can't imagine
> wearing them all the time.

Also a good point. I think goggles like that are rather hard on
batteries, though I had no problems the only time I wore a pair, for
what I think was 4 hours.

>>>A sleeping bag would be probably a good idea, for example (oh, why there
>>>are no nullsacks in the real world?)
>>Nullsacks?
>
> It's a device taken form a book "Redliners", by David Drake. It's a kind
> of sleeping bag, totally muffling all sounds, radiation, etc.
> It's matte black from the outside, keeps you warm and comfy because it
> keeps your own heat inside.

Yeah, that would be super handy. It would have to have some sort of
outlet for heat though - if totally insulated, the body quickly overheats.

>>But yes, a sleeping bag might be a good idea. Ideally also some sort of
>>portable alarm system, in case hostile creatures came close...
>
> Good camping equipment can keep you in better shape. It's not
> combat/exploration all the time.
>

I can personally attest to this. (that good camping equipment can keep
you in better shape), but it's also important to keep in mind that while
you sleep the best sleep in your life in your anti-grav suspended
nullsack, a Grue can come eat you.

I have a suggestion on the off chance that you're actually trying to
make a roguelike out of this; Balance the game so that it is very
survivable if you have all of this equipment, but make it so the
character has an accident or something just before entering the complex,
and may choose which 5 (or some number) items he was keeping the closest
eye on.

 

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At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:58:51 +0200,
Elethiomel wrote:

> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
>> At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:02:53 +0200,
>> Elethiomel wrote:
>>>Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
>>>>At 24 Aug 2005 12:09:42 GMT,
>>>> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:

> I have a suggestion on the off chance that you're actually trying to
> make a roguelike out of this;

Well, it's not that I lack ideas on new roguelikes to write. This one is
rather a story made up to justify a dungeon in modern setting.

I remembered about those roguelike heroes going underground wearing their
gothic full plate armour, wielding a two (or at least 1.5) handed sword
and a tower shield, and then thought about what equipment I would choose
if I was supposed to go into a dungeon.

I imagined myself wearing a thick leather coat (for protection), a cork
helmet with light, wielding a machette and a light shield (it comes in
handy), with additional spear (something like naginata probably) and
a sailor's bag on my back. Of course heavy boots and a belt with molotov
coctails made of oild flasks. And a cigar to ignite the molotvs (altrough
I don't smoke). A lenght of line across my shoulder and that's pretty much
all, aside from some useful tools and miscelany stuff in my bag. Oh, and
thick leather glowes, and maybe a scarf, like in westerns.

Then I noticed that I woudl choose roughly the same equipment nowadays
(sure, some sort of a handgun would make an excellent addition).

Then I thought on how to ask about opinion of others and I made up this
story.

> Balance the game so that it is very
> survivable if you have all of this equipment, but make it so the
> character has an accident or something just before entering the complex,
> and may choose which 5 (or some number) items he was keeping the closest
> eye on.

May be an interesting approach for character generation.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(==) 3 Yawn?
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .

 

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Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
> At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:58:51 +0200,
> Elethiomel wrote:
>>I have a suggestion on the off chance that you're actually trying to
>>make a roguelike out of this;
>
>
> Well, it's not that I lack ideas on new roguelikes to write. This one is
> rather a story made up to justify a dungeon in modern setting.

I am seriously contemplating making a Cyberpunk roguelike. It would be
my first roguelike, though, and I'm just starting to study at what's
rumored to be Norway's most challenging university (And they also have a
"girl/boyfriend guarantee"). So we'll see. Anyway, that roguelike
wouldn't have "dungeons" as such, but maybe sewer systems and certainly
corporate office / lab buildings.

>
> I remembered about those roguelike heroes going underground wearing their
> gothic full plate armour, wielding a two (or at least 1.5) handed sword
> and a tower shield, and then thought about what equipment I would choose
> if I was supposed to go into a dungeon.
>
> I imagined myself wearing a thick leather coat (for protection), a cork
> helmet with light, wielding a machette and a light shield (it comes in
> handy), with additional spear (something like naginata probably) and
> a sailor's bag on my back. Of course heavy boots and a belt with molotov
> coctails made of oild flasks. And a cigar to ignite the molotvs (altrough
> I don't smoke). A lenght of line across my shoulder and that's pretty much
> all, aside from some useful tools and miscelany stuff in my bag. Oh, and
> thick leather glowes, and maybe a scarf, like in westerns.
>
> Then I noticed that I woudl choose roughly the same equipment nowadays
> (sure, some sort of a handgun would make an excellent addition).
>
> Then I thought on how to ask about opinion of others and I made up this
> story.

Ah, I see. Well, as you understand; I am gadget man. Your approach
sounds much less prone to battery failure, dampness and dankness making
things not work, etc. Also it has hugely more dramatic impact.
Personally, I imagine a leather coat with those huge tubular collars
like the ones seen in Brotherhood of the Wolf.

>>Balance the game so that it is very
>>survivable if you have all of this equipment, but make it so the
>>character has an accident or something just before entering the complex,
>>and may choose which 5 (or some number) items he was keeping the closest
>>eye on.

> May be an interesting approach for character generation.

That was the idea I suddenly had.

 

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At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:34:50 +0200,
Elethiomel wrote:

> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
>> At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:58:51 +0200,
>> Elethiomel wrote:
> I am seriously contemplating making a Cyberpunk roguelike. It would be
> my first roguelike, though, and I'm just starting to study at what's
> rumored to be Norway's most challenging university

>(And they also have a
> "girl/boyfriend guarantee").

???

> So we'll see. Anyway, that roguelike
> wouldn't have "dungeons" as such, but maybe sewer systems and certainly
> corporate office / lab buildings.

I have one story for a 'cyberpunk dungeon':

The enemy corporation had a major accident in one of it's labs (Farben
hill maybe). It makes the lab vulnerable to attacks, so naturally all
other corporations send their scouts to scavenge as much information and
technology as possible.

You were a part of such a group, but got separated from your allies. Still
you're determined to carry out your mission (or maybe you just want to
stop te chaos so that you can be rescued).

The corporation did all sort of experiments, plus it had very tight
security (which have gone highwire now), so you've got your traditional
roguelike dungeon with everything in it hostile. Plus, you can have
enemies other than people (bioweapons, security droids, experimental
mutants).

This gives you the 'Rogue' dungeon -- with one-way stairs, all enemies
acting on their own, useful items and equipment scattered around,
labirynth of rooms, info discs you collect instead of gold (the more you
collect, the better chance there's some valuable info on them), etc.

>> I imagined myself wearing a thick leather coat (for protection), a cork
>> helmet with light, wielding a machette and a light shield (it comes in
>> handy), with additional spear (something like naginata probably) and
>> a sailor's bag on my back. Of course heavy boots and a belt with molotov
>> coctails made of oild flasks. And a cigar to ignite the molotvs (altrough
>> I don't smoke). A lenght of line across my shoulder and that's pretty much
>> all, aside from some useful tools and miscelany stuff in my bag. Oh, and
>> thick leather glowes, and maybe a scarf, like in westerns.

> Ah, I see. Well, as you understand; I am gadget man.
Well, in my story I allowed absolutely any equipment, no matter what the
costs are -- so it's natural you choose the best, the most functional and
the lightest equipment -- so that you can take more of it.

> Your approach
> sounds much less prone to battery failure, dampness and dankness making
> things not work, etc.

Just KISS

> Also it has hugely more dramatic impact.
> Personally, I imagine a leather coat with those huge tubular collars
> like the ones seen in Brotherhood of the Wolf.

I'd rather prefer a trencher's coat, maybe with an added hood for
additional protection.

If you add the gas mask, I might look like the WarZone's trencher:
<http://www.cavumdraconis.de/Tabletop/warzone/portrait/kr-grabenkaempfer.jpg>

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(Xx) 3 ...
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .

 

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Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@ sheep.prv.pl> wrote:
>I was wondering...
>
>If there was some kind of roguelike dungeon existing in the real world,
>and you'd have to choose a hero to enter it to carry his mission, and
>his equipment too, what would you choose?
>
>For those who need a story to get a better picture, try this (I'm not
>a novel writer and don't have as good imagination as Hajo, so forgive me):
>
>The spy sattelites have detected a large underground network of WW2
>bunkers and fortifications. The bunkers are so well hidden, nobody
>found them before. They are located on enemy terriority (well, not exactly
>enemy, as there's no war going on, but the country is not very friendly
>and it's impossible to send any large group of people to investigate).
>
>The bunkers are supposed to be an underground laboratory and weapon
>factory. Somewhere on the lowest levels there are supposed to be the
>blueprints of 'wunderwaffe', a technologically advanced weapon that was
>never used. You want them, and you want them bad. Furthermore, there were
>some leaks in your security, so the other countries also suspect the
>existence of the laboratory -- but they don't know where to look.
>
>You can only send one man to retrieve the blueprints -- any larger group
>would only attract unwanted attention. Once he enters the bunkers, he
>cannot come out -- the other country's spie sattelites would spot him
>easily. He must carry all of his equipment on him -- no way to transport
>more than he can carry.
>
>The sattelite scans confirm the existence of various life forms in the
>bunkers -- and those are more than just rats and bats. Aside from wild
>animals, there are some mutants created in the biological labs. There can
>also be descendants of the guards, living in the facility, not knowing
>that the war is over.
>
>You can assume it's like the first dozen levels of Angband.
>
>Now, the question -- what proffession and equipment would you need?

TURN IT INTO A ROGUELIKE PLS.

 

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Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
> At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:34:50 +0200,
> Elethiomel wrote:
>>(And they also have a
>>"girl/boyfriend guarantee").
>
> ???

On their website they state that if you study at this university, they
guarantee you that some time during your studies, you will have a
romantic relationship. [1]

> If you add the gas mask, I might look like the WarZone's trencher:
> <http://www.cavumdraconis.de/Tabletop/warzone/portrait/kr-grabenkaempfer.jpg>
>

That looks very cool. And here are the ones from BotW:
http://www.impawards.com/2002/posters/brotherhood_of_the_wolf.jpg



[1] Provided that you actually leave the apartment, lecture hall, and
direct path between the two once in a while.

 

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At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:30:02 +0200,
Elethiomel wrote:

> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
>> At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:34:50 +0200,
>> Elethiomel wrote:
>>>(And they also have a
>>>"girl/boyfriend guarantee").
>> ???
> On their website they state that if you study at this university, they
> guarantee you that some time during your studies, you will have a
> romantic relationship. [1]

Doesn't it scare people off? Oo)

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(Uu) 3 Sigh!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .

 

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"Andreas Koch" <nospam@kochandreas.com> wrote in message
news:dehvfc$f2m$01$1@news.t-online.com...
> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
>> I was wondering...
>>
>> If there was some kind of roguelike dungeon existing in the real
>> world,
>> and you'd have to choose a hero to enter it to carry his mission, and
>> his equipment too, what would you choose?
>
> Well... no sane real life person would go on a mission with a death
> probability anywhere near as a roguelike. If they'de be forced to
> do so, they would probably low level powertrain ... for example,
> build a hut near the entrance, and shoot everything that comes
> out. If nothing comes out for a few days, advance a few meters.
> Repeat.
>

No way! Just get an insane person.

> Better : get a team. If you can't bring your own team, use
> relations to buy an enemy team.
>
> Profession and equipment : You don't want to use firearms
> against small targets. Perhaps use a machete for that.
> Pistol with some clips for larger enemies, with "Schalldämper"
> (sonic reducer?) of course. Larger weapons are inpratical
> for small rooms.
>
> Or just do it the hard way : Protection suit, and a few
> cannisters of poison gas...
>

Bah, I like the insane dude idea .

--
Glen
Lyt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+

 

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Elethiomel wrote:
[...]
> You'd want a person with military training and probably a machine
> pistol. MP5SD would probably be ideal for most encounters - it has an
> integrated sound supressor, a slightly longer barrel than most pistols,
> but is still maneuverable enough for close encounters. Also, even
> traveling subsonically, 9mm pistol rounds carry enough of a punch to
> bring serious pain to any unarmoured target - and these Germans and
> Mutants aren't likely to have developed and manufactured kevlar all on
> their lonesome, have they?

The small version of the MP5 is the MP5K, and it doesn't have a sound
suppressor; the variant with the suppressor is the MP5SD and it is
about as big as the full-sized models.
I'm not being pedantic about model names, it is a fact that suppressors
are too long for truly small guns; but this can become an interesting
choice for the player. Louder weapons attract more monsters from
greater distances, large weapons should be heavy and possibly slow.
Size/effectiveness tradeoffs like this have a central role because the
game is about very limited resources and larger firearms are generally
much more deadly than smaller ones: encumbrance should be emphasized in
the rules and in the user interface.
The inventory should have no limitation to the number of different item
types (to reward diversification and forethought) and instead restrict
weight, size and slot. For example, an overburdened character shouldn't
be a little "slow" like in Angband: he shouldn't move at all or become
very fatigued. A fatigue system, by the way, would be useful in combat
to balance the use of big weapons with an immediate cost.
The player should discard weapons when new ones are found, carefully
estimate how much of each of the many special ammo types he will need,
fill magazines with mixed rounds (special UI), hide caches of stuff
here and there (special UI for marking places on the map) and generally
care about maximizing the usefulness of carried equipment.

I'd recommend a few nicely compatible systems of weapons, ammo and
accessories, like medium caliber pistol and SMG (e.g. 9mm), shotgun
(e.g. 12 gauge) and rifle (e.g. 7.62 mm) rounds, grenades for grenade
launchers, arrows, batteries for energy weapons. For each standard
there can be many compatible variants of the basic type: high capacity
batteries, poisoned and explosive arrows, and all sorts of firearm
cartridges: armour piercing, soft, blank, flechette, explosive,
subsonic...
Too many ammo standards are a serious problem when encumbrance is
limited: lack of ammo makes the corresponding bulky firearms worthless
and keeping good ammo without its weapon is also a complete luxury. In
a randomly generated world ammo and weapon mismatches are statistically
guaranteed, so it's better to mitigate them with compatible but
inferior ammo and weapons: a pistol instead of the lost SMG, valuable
poisoned arrows against a robot after the regular ones have ended, etc.
Gun accessories should be compatible with most or all weapons of the
same caliber, even if it's not completely realistic; they can be a
powerful tool in the game and a source of variety and interesting
choices for the player (Sights or laser pointer? Suppressor or
bayonet?).
Useful accessories include suppressors (maybe multiple models with a
size/effectiveness tradeoff), laser projectors, sights, bayonets,
grenade launchers, extended or lightweight magazines.

The value proposition of a pistol or SMG should be the small size of
weapon and ammo, and maybe the low recoil. Basic types could include a
small pistol (rather useless for the better armed hero, but good for
equipping monsters and as backup), a short SMG (like the MP5K) and a
long and heavier SMG (like the MP5) with slightly better range and
accuracy. For variety, there might be single shot pistols (either
ornate and precious or accurate and delicate competition models, they
shouldn't be worthless), revolvers and variations in accuracy and
reliability.

Shotguns, as DOOM teached us, should be the best option for close
unarmored monsters; models are varied (one or two barrels, long or
sawed off, slow or fast reloading, more or less rounds) and military
ones could have automatic fire.

Rifles should be good for general use and for sniping from a distance,
but they are heavy.
There should only be modern assault rifles (of varying quality and
accessories); specialty sniper rifles would realistically use
incompatible ammo, which is bad, and older types are quite obsolete and
not cool.
There could also be machine guns using rifle shots; very hard to carry
but good for heroic use in open spaces.
Representing the extended action of aiming an automatic fire weapon in
a turn based game can be an issue.

The elite soldier discussed in earlier posts should start very well
armed with anything the player wants, subject to encumbrance limits and
with the exclusion of extremely expensive and experimental stuff (or
maybe with a cost limit).

Ammo is obviously limited and weapons and accessories can jam or break,
making the character dependent on salvaged enemy equipment.
For the "wonder weapons" theme, there should be weapon treasures: a
limited amount of exotic and very effective ammo, some strange and
specialized weapons and accessories (real examples: guns with a curved
barrel for shooting around corners and sealed one-shot pistols for
underwater use), maybe incompatible and unrenewable enemy-only weapon
systems (caseless prototypes and Soviet rifle calibers come to mind).

Lorenzo Gatti

 

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Elethiomel wrote:
[...]
> I'd disagree here. There wouldn't be all that many different ammo types
> available in a bunker staffed by a specific nation's or even alliance's
> military during WW2. Or any armed conflict, for that matter - ammunition
> tends to be standardized in the military to just a few types. Most
> probably 1 pistol ammo size, 1 rifle ammo size, and 1 machine gun ammo

In fact shotguns should be unavailable if not used by the enemy; a
large caliber for machine guns and powerful sniper rifles is the most
likely replacement.

> size. With the resources of a government behind you, it shouldn't be too
> difficult to have a weapon of your preferred type modified and
> manufactured to be able to take WW2 size ammo of the relevant type - and
> be superior to any WW2 weapon found.

I agree that the weapon standards should be those of the enemy
(equipping the hero with custom adaptations and possibly museum
pieces): allowing the use of found ammo is a sufficient reason.
However, if the enemy is compatible enough with the hero's side more
toys become available.

[...]
> >
> > The elite soldier discussed in earlier posts should start very well
> > armed with anything the player wants, subject to encumbrance limits and
> > with the exclusion of extremely expensive and experimental stuff (or
> > maybe with a cost limit).
>
> Why? Your nation is already putting millions on the line (spy sattelite
> time, counter-intelligence operations, security clearing the soldier in
> question, transporting ths soldier in question into the area in question
> [more counter intelligence here], etc..) for this piece of information
> in the bottom of this WW2 bunker - a couple hundred thousand extra for a
> cool gadget or better weapon won't make a dent.

Many weapons can be so obscure and experimental that they aren't
available (at least not in time for the mission) or so illegal or
dangerous that the military don't use them.
The most outrageous weapons can be unique specimen found in the enemy
secret labs.

>
> > Ammo is obviously limited and weapons and accessories can jam or break,
>
> Yes, a jamming or breaking weapon is a good reason to go hunting for a
> new one. If you don't have the skill and ability to scrounge the
> equipment to fix the weapon you already have.

I think the repairs and maintenance a soldier can do in the battlefield
with the limited tools and time he has are limited to disassembling and
reassembling some parts and cleaning them.
Finding and conquering the enemy workshop, getting there when needed,
securing it and making complex repairs can be an interesting activity,
but in the short term spare weapons are needed and in the longer term
some weapons cannot be repaired at all.

> > making the character dependent on salvaged enemy equipment.
> > For the "wonder weapons" theme, there should be weapon treasures: a
> > limited amount of exotic and very effective ammo, some strange and
> > specialized weapons and accessories (real examples: guns with a curved
> > barrel for shooting around corners and sealed one-shot pistols for
> > underwater use), maybe incompatible and unrenewable enemy-only weapon
> > systems (caseless prototypes and Soviet rifle calibers come to mind).
>
> Well, if your nation thinks it likely that the enemy in the bunker uses
> Soviet ammo, they'll roll out a modified weapon of your favourite type
> which can use soviet ammo and send soviet-caliber ammo with you.

Don't take the Soviet rifle calibers literally, it was just an example
of enemy equipment that is practically equivalent but gratuitously
incompatible.

On the whole, it seems you prefer a quasi-realistic WW2 setting and
technology level while I want to maximize the weird, high tech, and
even unrealistic equipment; they are different and only partly
overlapping tastes.

Lorenzo Gatti

 

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gatti@dsdata.it wrote:
> Elethiomel wrote:
> [...]
>
>>You'd want a person with military training and probably a machine
>>pistol. MP5SD would probably be ideal for most encounters - it has an
>>integrated sound supressor, a slightly longer barrel than most pistols,
>>but is still maneuverable enough for close encounters. Also, even
>>traveling subsonically, 9mm pistol rounds carry enough of a punch to
>>bring serious pain to any unarmoured target - and these Germans and
>>Mutants aren't likely to have developed and manufactured kevlar all on
>>their lonesome, have they?
>
>
> The small version of the MP5 is the MP5K, and it doesn't have a sound
> suppressor; the variant with the suppressor is the MP5SD and it is
> about as big as the full-sized models.

I know. When I said "slightly longer barrel than most pistols",
"slightly" was ambiguously defined. The MP5K actually has a shorter
barrel than many pistols (due to the breech being placed very near the
location of the magazine).


> I'm not being pedantic about model names, it is a fact that suppressors
> are too long for truly small guns; but this can become an interesting
> choice for the player. Louder weapons attract more monsters from
> greater distances, large weapons should be heavy and possibly slow.

Yes, but machine pistols like the MP5(SD) are short enough for the
situation, IMHO. The only reason I can see that you would want to bring
a pistol *instead* of a machine pistol into such a situation would be
the weight consideration.

> Size/effectiveness tradeoffs like this have a central role because the
> game is about very limited resources and larger firearms are generally
> much more deadly than smaller ones: encumbrance should be emphasized in
> the rules and in the user interface.

Here, I'd agree completely.

> The inventory should have no limitation to the number of different item
> types (to reward diversification and forethought) and instead restrict
> weight, size and slot. For example, an overburdened character shouldn't
> be a little "slow" like in Angband: he shouldn't move at all or become
> very fatigued. A fatigue system, by the way, would be useful in combat
> to balance the use of big weapons with an immediate cost.
> The player should discard weapons when new ones are found, carefully

I'd disagree here. There wouldn't be all that many different ammo types
available in a bunker staffed by a specific nation's or even alliance's
military during WW2. Or any armed conflict, for that matter - ammunition
tends to be standardized in the military to just a few types. Most
probably 1 pistol ammo size, 1 rifle ammo size, and 1 machine gun ammo
size. With the resources of a government behind you, it shouldn't be too
difficult to have a weapon of your preferred type modified and
manufactured to be able to take WW2 size ammo of the relevant type - and
be superior to any WW2 weapon found.

> estimate how much of each of the many special ammo types he will need,
> fill magazines with mixed rounds (special UI), hide caches of stuff
> here and there (special UI for marking places on the map) and generally
> care about maximizing the usefulness of carried equipment.
>
> I'd recommend a few nicely compatible systems of weapons, ammo and
> accessories, like medium caliber pistol and SMG (e.g. 9mm), shotgun
> (e.g. 12 gauge) and rifle (e.g. 7.62 mm) rounds, grenades for grenade
> launchers, arrows, batteries for energy weapons. For each standard
> there can be many compatible variants of the basic type: high capacity
> batteries, poisoned and explosive arrows, and all sorts of firearm
> cartridges: armour piercing, soft, blank, flechette, explosive,
> subsonic...
> Too many ammo standards are a serious problem when encumbrance is
> limited: lack of ammo makes the corresponding bulky firearms worthless
> and keeping good ammo without its weapon is also a complete luxury. In
> a randomly generated world ammo and weapon mismatches are statistically
> guaranteed, so it's better to mitigate them with compatible but
> inferior ammo and weapons: a pistol instead of the lost SMG, valuable
> poisoned arrows against a robot after the regular ones have ended, etc.
> Gun accessories should be compatible with most or all weapons of the
> same caliber, even if it's not completely realistic;

Agreed.

>they can be a
> powerful tool in the game and a source of variety and interesting
> choices for the player (Sights or laser pointer? Suppressor or
> bayonet?).

Well, here you're talking artificial restrictions - a laser pointer can,
with some ingeniuity (or a broght-along extra mount for clamping around
a barrel for instance) be mounted along with optical sights. Not that
the laser pointer wouldn't be superior in every single situation in a
dark underground complex that doesn't have kilometer-long rooms.

> Useful accessories include suppressors (maybe multiple models with a
> size/effectiveness tradeoff), laser projectors, sights, bayonets,
> grenade launchers, extended or lightweight magazines.

Also flashlight

>
> The value proposition of a pistol or SMG should be the small size of
> weapon and ammo, and maybe the low recoil. Basic types could include a
> small pistol (rather useless for the better armed hero, but good for
> equipping monsters and as backup), a short SMG (like the MP5K) and a
> long and heavier SMG (like the MP5) with slightly better range and
> accuracy. For variety, there might be single shot pistols (either
> ornate and precious or accurate and delicate competition models, they
> shouldn't be worthless), revolvers and variations in accuracy and
> reliability.

Good points. If you get to keep your beginning gun, though, I can't see
any reason to pick up any new ones.

> Shotguns, as DOOM teached us, should be the best option for close
> unarmored monsters; models are varied (one or two barrels, long or
> sawed off, slow or fast reloading, more or less rounds) and military
> ones could have automatic fire.

Yes. Also, shotguns are seriously bulky, as is their ammo.

> Rifles should be good for general use and for sniping from a distance,
> but they are heavy.

And next to useless in a dark, underground complex with small rooms and
corridors

> There should only be modern assault rifles (of varying quality and
> accessories); specialty sniper rifles would realistically use
> incompatible ammo, which is bad, and older types are quite obsolete and
> not cool.
> There could also be machine guns using rifle shots; very hard to carry
> but good for heroic use in open spaces.
> Representing the extended action of aiming an automatic fire weapon in
> a turn based game can be an issue.

I think Silent Storm did it rather well, but then they had long turns
and "action points", which I don't find very compatible to the roguelike
genre.

>
> The elite soldier discussed in earlier posts should start very well
> armed with anything the player wants, subject to encumbrance limits and
> with the exclusion of extremely expensive and experimental stuff (or
> maybe with a cost limit).

Why? Your nation is already putting millions on the line (spy sattelite
time, counter-intelligence operations, security clearing the soldier in
question, transporting ths soldier in question into the area in question
[more counter intelligence here], etc..) for this piece of information
in the bottom of this WW2 bunker - a couple hundred thousand extra for a
cool gadget or better weapon won't make a dent.

>
> Ammo is obviously limited and weapons and accessories can jam or break,

Yes, a jamming or breaking weapon is a good reason to go hunting for a
new one. If you don't have the skill and ability to scrounge the
equipment to fix the weapon you already have.

> making the character dependent on salvaged enemy equipment.
> For the "wonder weapons" theme, there should be weapon treasures: a
> limited amount of exotic and very effective ammo, some strange and
> specialized weapons and accessories (real examples: guns with a curved
> barrel for shooting around corners and sealed one-shot pistols for
> underwater use), maybe incompatible and unrenewable enemy-only weapon
> systems (caseless prototypes and Soviet rifle calibers come to mind).

Well, if your nation thinks it likely that the enemy in the bunker uses
Soviet ammo, they'll roll out a modified weapon of your favourite type
which can use soviet ammo and send soviet-caliber ammo with you.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

"Andreas Koch" <nospam@kochandreas.com> wrote in message
news:dehvfc$f2m$01$1@news.t-online.com...
[...]
> Pistol with some clips for larger enemies, with "Schalldämper"
> (sonic reducer?) of course. Larger weapons are inpratical
> for small rooms.
[...]

The word in English is "silencer", and I agree this is extremely important
in the given scenario.

Stealth needs to be a major factor given the description. Using a silencer
on handguns or melee weaponry is essential. One way to enforce this is to
have enemies alerted to your precense based on sound. Note that there
doesn't have to be any actual audio, it could be verbose. It's also
important for such alerted enemies to be any of the following:

1) Too many for the player to handle at once (swarm).
2) Few, but strong mobs that are best dealt with one-on-one (more than 2 at
once is surely fatal)
3) Medium-amount and medium-strength mobs that apply group fighting tactics
when around allied mobs or that just become significantly stronger from
morale or rage.

Implementing these sort of mechanics is important to ensure the player
benefits from being stealthy rather than being a crazy commando.

--Nolithius

 

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gatti@dsdata.it wrote:

> Elethiomel wrote:
>> Yes, a jamming or breaking weapon is a good reason to go hunting for a
>> new one. If you don't have the skill and ability to scrounge the
>> equipment to fix the weapon you already have.
>
> I think the repairs and maintenance a soldier can do in the battlefield
> with the limited tools and time he has are limited to disassembling and
> reassembling some parts and cleaning them.
> Finding and conquering the enemy workshop, getting there when needed,
> securing it and making complex repairs can be an interesting activity,
> but in the short term spare weapons are needed and in the longer term
> some weapons cannot be repaired at all.

Spare weapons are OK but using any discarded weapon you can find isn't
something a good soldier would do. A good soldier would only trust his the
weapons he got himself or from someone he trusts. Using a weapon you find
somewhere in an abandoned WW2 bunker his liable to get you killed : jamming
due to bad handling by the previous owner, traped weapon which will explode
when used/picked up etc... Also, how should jamming be treated ? A random
break chance ? Jamming as a game feature is far too annoying in itself,
unless the player made a big mistake : tossing the weapon on the ground,
using an untrusted weapon, dipping the weapon in dirt/sand, overheating due
to excessive usage, etc... and in that case it's is damn own fault the
weapon doesn't work anymore

Also, when carrying weapons, you have to consider where the soldier will
keep them. You won't be putting an assault rifle or a SMG in a bagpack for
example. At best, you can expect the soldier to carry one pistol somewhere,
one SMG and one other bigger weapon on the back. That's extreme case and
practicaly useless because the SMG and the assaut rifle overlap so much in
functionality it isn't work the bother. You are limited by the amount of
weapons you can strap around yourself before you can't move or switch
weapons anymore

Same for the different gadjets. A grenade in your bagpack is useless because
you can't get it in time when you need it. You must place them on your belt
for example.

>> > making the character dependent on salvaged enemy equipment.
>> > For the "wonder weapons" theme, there should be weapon treasures: a
>> > limited amount of exotic and very effective ammo, some strange and
>> > specialized weapons and accessories (real examples: guns with a curved
>> > barrel for shooting around corners and sealed one-shot pistols for
>> > underwater use), maybe incompatible and unrenewable enemy-only weapon
>> > systems (caseless prototypes and Soviet rifle calibers come to mind).
>>
>> Well, if your nation thinks it likely that the enemy in the bunker uses
>> Soviet ammo, they'll roll out a modified weapon of your favourite type
>> which can use soviet ammo and send soviet-caliber ammo with you.
>
> Don't take the Soviet rifle calibers literally, it was just an example
> of enemy equipment that is practically equivalent but gratuitously
> incompatible.
>
> On the whole, it seems you prefer a quasi-realistic WW2 setting and
> technology level while I want to maximize the weird, high tech, and
> even unrealistic equipment; they are different and only partly
> overlapping tastes.
>
> Lorenzo Gatti

Considering there is some blueprint of value for modern time military in an
old WW2 bunker, you might expect to find a few weird and useful hightech
items in there. Also, if there is some mutants and assorted strange things,
you might consider that the human survivors would have created a few
weapons specialy made to fight such mutants before beeing wiped out. Or
maybe they nearly used up all the ammo and they add to create a few cheap
weapons like crossbows or homemade grenades.

Lot's of possibilities here

 

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At Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:47:50 GMT,
Nolithius wrote:
> "Andreas Koch" <nospam@kochandreas.com> wrote in message
> news:dehvfc$f2m$01$1@news.t-online.com...

> Implementing these sort of mechanics is important to ensure the player
> benefits from being stealthy rather than being a crazy commando.

Seeing how this thread unfolds, I'd like to note that I meant a fictional
real-life situation rather than game mechanics.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(TT) 3 Waaah!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

gatti@dsdata.it wrote:
> Elethiomel wrote:
> [...]
>
>>I'd disagree here. There wouldn't be all that many different ammo types
>>available in a bunker staffed by a specific nation's or even alliance's
>>military during WW2. Or any armed conflict, for that matter - ammunition
>>tends to be standardized in the military to just a few types. Most
>>probably 1 pistol ammo size, 1 rifle ammo size, and 1 machine gun ammo
>
>
> In fact shotguns should be unavailable if not used by the enemy; a
> large caliber for machine guns and powerful sniper rifles is the most
> likely replacement.

I don't agree here. You're trusted by your government to go get these
plans - if you say you need a shotgun, you'll get a shotgun. As I said
earlier, most likely none of the opponents are wearing armour anyway.


>>size. With the resources of a government behind you, it shouldn't be too
>>difficult to have a weapon of your preferred type modified and
>>manufactured to be able to take WW2 size ammo of the relevant type - and
>>be superior to any WW2 weapon found.
>
> I agree that the weapon standards should be those of the enemy
> (equipping the hero with custom adaptations and possibly museum
> pieces): allowing the use of found ammo is a sufficient reason.
> However, if the enemy is compatible enough with the hero's side more
> toys become available.

True. =)

> [...]
>
>>>The elite soldier discussed in earlier posts should start very well
>>>armed with anything the player wants, subject to encumbrance limits and
>>>with the exclusion of extremely expensive and experimental stuff (or
>>>maybe with a cost limit).
>>
>>Why? Your nation is already putting millions on the line (spy sattelite
>>time, counter-intelligence operations, security clearing the soldier in
>>question, transporting ths soldier in question into the area in question
>>[more counter intelligence here], etc..) for this piece of information
>>in the bottom of this WW2 bunker - a couple hundred thousand extra for a
>>cool gadget or better weapon won't make a dent.
>
> Many weapons can be so obscure and experimental that they aren't
> available (at least not in time for the mission) or so illegal or
> dangerous that the military don't use them.
> The most outrageous weapons can be unique specimen found in the enemy
> secret labs.

Good point. WW2 scientists may have been on to something.

>
>>>Ammo is obviously limited and weapons and accessories can jam or break,
>>
>>Yes, a jamming or breaking weapon is a good reason to go hunting for a
>>new one. If you don't have the skill and ability to scrounge the
>>equipment to fix the weapon you already have.
>
> I think the repairs and maintenance a soldier can do in the battlefield
> with the limited tools and time he has are limited to disassembling and
> reassembling some parts and cleaning them.

True. This often fixes a jammed weapon though.

> Finding and conquering the enemy workshop, getting there when needed,
> securing it and making complex repairs can be an interesting activity,
> but in the short term spare weapons are needed and in the longer term
> some weapons cannot be repaired at all.

This is true. I'd see it as a last resort though.

>
>>>making the character dependent on salvaged enemy equipment.
>>>For the "wonder weapons" theme, there should be weapon treasures: a
>>>limited amount of exotic and very effective ammo, some strange and
>>>specialized weapons and accessories (real examples: guns with a curved
>>>barrel for shooting around corners and sealed one-shot pistols for
>>>underwater use), maybe incompatible and unrenewable enemy-only weapon
>>>systems (caseless prototypes and Soviet rifle calibers come to mind).
>>
>>Well, if your nation thinks it likely that the enemy in the bunker uses
>>Soviet ammo, they'll roll out a modified weapon of your favourite type
>>which can use soviet ammo and send soviet-caliber ammo with you.
>
> Don't take the Soviet rifle calibers literally, it was just an example
> of enemy equipment that is practically equivalent but gratuitously
> incompatible.

Yes, this is true. My point was that you're likely to have weapons
compatible with whatever ammo it is most likely you will find in the
complex.

> On the whole, it seems you prefer a quasi-realistic WW2 setting and
> technology level while I want to maximize the weird, high tech, and
> even unrealistic equipment; they are different and only partly
> overlapping tastes.

Preference - I don't know. I just assumed that was the setting when I
read the story of the OP.

The game I previously mentioned - Silent Storm - has "panzerklein"
(personal powered armour) and beam weaponry in a WW2 setting. I found it
tons of fun anyway (though the mission where you have to knock the enemy
leader [who is in a super-panzerklein] unconscious and run away with him
without having the building blow up is SUPER HARD because of the
insanely destructive weaponry being bandied about by that point).

 

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"Elethiomel" <kkkk@lllllll.mmmm> wrote in message
news:430cb5a1@news.broadpark.no...
[...]
> All those are good, and probably light weight (except the crowbar).
[...]

I'm sure your country could provide you with a titanium alloy crowbar that
is stronger and lighter than the usual. Aparently they have all these
advanced sensor technologies at their disposal, so why not?

--Nolithius

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Elethiomel wrote:
> gatti@dsdata.it wrote:

>> The elite soldier discussed in earlier posts should start very well
>> armed with anything the player wants, subject to encumbrance limits and
>> with the exclusion of extremely expensive and experimental stuff (or
>> maybe with a cost limit).
>
> Why? Your nation is already putting millions on the line (spy sattelite
> time, counter-intelligence operations, security clearing the soldier in
> question, transporting ths soldier in question into the area in question
> [more counter intelligence here], etc..) for this piece of information
> in the bottom of this WW2 bunker - a couple hundred thousand extra for a
> cool gadget or better weapon won't make a dent.

If the game uses character classes, there could be a class or two where
cost matters. For example, what about a "batman" type class where you're
elite-trained self-funded and rich but not major-nation-military rich?
Another possible class with similar, but different restrictions would be
"counterspy" (you're from an enemy nation and have mugged the original
operative on his way in and now have your own even smaller base stock
plus some encumbrance-limited pickings from his his good, but random
collection of stuff; you have even tighter security limitations but the
backup for the original operative is on his way and wants you dead,
etc.) Or "mad scientist" (severely cost-limited but balanced by, say,
INT-related advantages elsewhere). Or the classic movie stereotype
"renegade" (you've defected for your own moral or immoral reasons and
need the Warb of SSot for your own plans of some sort; you're totally
kickass but only have what you could sneak out on your departure).

e.

--
"Well, we didn't understand what 'Free Bird' means, anyway. So we played
Sweet Home Alabama for those silly guys."
- from autobiography of JA noisecore band Melt Banana

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Quoting Nolithius <Nolithius@hotmail.com>:
>"Elethiomel" <kkkk@lllllll.mmmm> wrote in message
>> All those are good, and probably light weight (except the crowbar).
>I'm sure your country could provide you with a titanium alloy crowbar that
>is stronger and lighter than the usual.

Clumsily bulky, then. You can't replace a solid steel part with a
same-size titanium one.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Thursday, August.