Modern dungeon exploration

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

I was wondering...

If there was some kind of roguelike dungeon existing in the real world,
and you'd have to choose a hero to enter it to carry his mission, and
his equipment too, what would you choose?

For those who need a story to get a better picture, try this (I'm not
a novel writer and don't have as good imagination as Hajo, so forgive me):

The spy sattelites have detected a large underground network of WW2
bunkers and fortifications. The bunkers are so well hidden, nobody
found them before. They are located on enemy terriority (well, not exactly
enemy, as there's no war going on, but the country is not very friendly
and it's impossible to send any large group of people to investigate).

The bunkers are supposed to be an underground laboratory and weapon
factory. Somewhere on the lowest levels there are supposed to be the
blueprints of 'wunderwaffe', a technologically advanced weapon that was
never used. You want them, and you want them bad. Furthermore, there were
some leaks in your security, so the other countries also suspect the
existence of the laboratory -- but they don't know where to look.

You can only send one man to retrieve the blueprints -- any larger group
would only attract unwanted attention. Once he enters the bunkers, he
cannot come out -- the other country's spie sattelites would spot him
easily. He must carry all of his equipment on him -- no way to transport
more than he can carry.

The sattelite scans confirm the existence of various life forms in the
bunkers -- and those are more than just rats and bats. Aside from wild
animals, there are some mutants created in the biological labs. There can
also be descendants of the guards, living in the facility, not knowing
that the war is over.

You can assume it's like the first dozen levels of Angband.

Now, the question -- what proffession and equipment would you need?

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(: ) 3 Snap!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
31 answers Last reply
More about modern dungeon exploration
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    > I was wondering...
    >
    > If there was some kind of roguelike dungeon existing in the real world,
    > and you'd have to choose a hero to enter it to carry his mission, and
    > his equipment too, what would you choose?
    >
    > For those who need a story to get a better picture, try this (I'm not
    > a novel writer and don't have as good imagination as Hajo, so forgive me):
    >
    > The spy sattelites have detected a large underground network of WW2
    > bunkers and fortifications. The bunkers are so well hidden, nobody
    > found them before. They are located on enemy terriority (well, not exactly
    > enemy, as there's no war going on, but the country is not very friendly
    > and it's impossible to send any large group of people to investigate).
    >
    > The bunkers are supposed to be an underground laboratory and weapon
    > factory. Somewhere on the lowest levels there are supposed to be the
    > blueprints of 'wunderwaffe', a technologically advanced weapon that was
    > never used. You want them, and you want them bad. Furthermore, there were
    > some leaks in your security, so the other countries also suspect the
    > existence of the laboratory -- but they don't know where to look.
    >
    > You can only send one man to retrieve the blueprints -- any larger group
    > would only attract unwanted attention. Once he enters the bunkers, he
    > cannot come out -- the other country's spie sattelites would spot him
    > easily. He must carry all of his equipment on him -- no way to transport
    > more than he can carry.
    >
    > The sattelite scans confirm the existence of various life forms in the
    > bunkers -- and those are more than just rats and bats. Aside from wild
    > animals, there are some mutants created in the biological labs. There can
    > also be descendants of the guards, living in the facility, not knowing
    > that the war is over.
    >
    > You can assume it's like the first dozen levels of Angband.
    >
    > Now, the question -- what proffession and equipment would you need?

    I'll leave profession to others and just dream about equipment a bit.

    Data generation equipment -- minimally photography, perhaps sound,
    ideally video. Hardened against physical impact, etc. Biomeasuring
    equipment.

    Data storage equipment.

    Physical storage equipment -- I assume a backpack with lots of pockets.

    Storage belt.

    If the storyline/game balance permit, equipment for communication with
    home base. Presumably the storyline above would NOT permit this for the
    most part, but perhaps there could be some short time frames where spy
    networks would have reasonable assurance that communication would not
    lead to the discovery of the base (leading to a text "cut scene" of some
    type perhaps). Once you were "at the goal line", HQ might decide an
    encrypted transmission would be OK no matter what.

    A watch.

    Small, concealed weaponry.

    Rappeling and spelunking equipment.

    K-rations.

    First aid kit.

    e.
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    > I was wondering...
    >
    > If there was some kind of roguelike dungeon existing in the real world,
    > and you'd have to choose a hero to enter it to carry his mission, and
    > his equipment too, what would you choose?
    >
    > For those who need a story to get a better picture, try this (I'm not
    > a novel writer and don't have as good imagination as Hajo, so forgive me):
    >
    > The spy sattelites have detected a large underground network of WW2
    > bunkers and fortifications. The bunkers are so well hidden, nobody
    > found them before. They are located on enemy terriority (well, not exactly
    > enemy, as there's no war going on, but the country is not very friendly
    > and it's impossible to send any large group of people to investigate).

    I am glad you leave the country of origin for the roguelike hero undefined.

    >
    > The bunkers are supposed to be an underground laboratory and weapon
    > factory. Somewhere on the lowest levels there are supposed to be the
    > blueprints of 'wunderwaffe', a technologically advanced weapon that was
    > never used. You want them, and you want them bad. Furthermore, there were
    > some leaks in your security, so the other countries also suspect the
    > existence of the laboratory -- but they don't know where to look.
    >
    > You can only send one man to retrieve the blueprints -- any larger group
    > would only attract unwanted attention. Once he enters the bunkers, he
    > cannot come out -- the other country's spie sattelites would spot him
    > easily. He must carry all of his equipment on him -- no way to transport
    > more than he can carry.
    >
    > The sattelite scans confirm the existence of various life forms in the
    > bunkers -- and those are more than just rats and bats. Aside from wild
    > animals, there are some mutants created in the biological labs. There can
    > also be descendants of the guards, living in the facility, not knowing
    > that the war is over.
    >
    > You can assume it's like the first dozen levels of Angband.

    I haven't ever played beyond the first 2 levels of any *band, so this
    does me no good.

    >
    > Now, the question -- what proffession and equipment would you need?
    >

    if Military Intelligence (a contradiction in terms, but no matter), who
    I assume are the ones wanting these blueprints, assume most of the
    inhabitants to be hostile to anyone entering the underground complex,
    I'd say get a guy from the French Foreign Legion (or the Special Forces
    of your choice) and give him a knife. Or if you wanted it to be a sure
    thing, a knife, a few clips of rifle ammo, an assault rifle, a couple of
    clips of 9mm ammo, an MP5SD, a few rations, and quite a bit of water.

    For a less risky solution (shooting at things in an underground complex
    is always risky, no matter what Special Forces training you have -
    especially with all those old explosives down there having become
    unstable with age), you could look at the inhabitants of the complex and
    draw a couple of conclusions.

    Conclusion 1: Rats and bats are wusses. They may swarm all over you,
    though, so bring a bag full of tasty poison pellets along and spread
    them in front of the rats. If you lie still on the floor with exposed
    skin covered, and wear some kind of heavy weave fabric, or leather, bats
    probably couldn't do you any significant harm even if they wanted to.
    And they'd get tired and run away.

    Conclusion 2: The human inhabitants, those descended from the guards,
    probably either have a way of avoiding contact with any dangerous
    mutants, or an effective way to repel said - they've survived for over
    50 years. Probably over 60. This means that the person you send to
    retrieve the blueprints must:
    a) speak fluent German (assuming german bunker here, from your mention
    of 'wunderwaffe').
    b) be a total WW2 buff.
    c) bring along a PDA with all the code books Germany ever used, an
    Enigma emulator, all the now-declassified documents it can fit, and
    specifications on all machinery most likely being used in the bunker.
    d) be good at talking to people.
    e) bring rations enough for a month or so, some actual water, and some
    device to purify water (because all the things and people and critters
    in there have to have access to *some* source of water.
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    At 24 Aug 2005 12:09:42 GMT,
    Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:

    > The sattelite scans confirm the existence of various life forms in the
    > bunkers -- and those are more than just rats and bats. Aside from wild
    > animals, there are some mutants created in the biological labs. There can
    > also be descendants of the guards, living in the facility, not knowing
    > that the war is over.

    I think I need to add a few words, because this description didn't make it
    hostile enough ;)

    Obviously, the human survivors live in moderately safe parts of the
    facility, and developed startegies to get their food and water and to
    defend against all hostile creatures. The idea with the knowledge of
    german language and all the german codes and passwords is great -- however
    it's not guaranteed to work (I think a great novel could be written based
    on this theme -- something like Brian Aldis's "Non Stop") -- the facility
    was super-secret and isolated.

    Other creatures also need certain things to survive -- but those might be
    very different from what human needs -- they are mutants and adapt very
    fast.

    The environment can be different in different parts of the facility -- and
    out hero is probably supposed to explore places that were abandoned or
    even cut off and sealed.

    But note also that his mission is not to kill everything in sight or to
    "clean" the facility -- he only has to retrieve certain materials. Based
    on the signs and topology, he could probably search much more effectively
    than checking the whole map.


    If it's possible, I'd like to know how you imagine such a person -- what
    he wears, what skills he has, how he's supposed to behave in various
    situations.

    Funny how nobody mentioned a flashlight ;)
    A sleeping bag would be probably a good idea, for example (oh, why there
    are no nullsacks in the real world?).

    --
    Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
    (TT) 3 Waaah!
    . . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    > I was wondering...
    >
    > If there was some kind of roguelike dungeon existing in the real world,
    > and you'd have to choose a hero to enter it to carry his mission, and
    > his equipment too, what would you choose?

    Well... no sane real life person would go on a mission with a death
    probability anywhere near as a roguelike. If they'de be forced to
    do so, they would probably low level powertrain ... for example,
    build a hut near the entrance, and shoot everything that comes
    out. If nothing comes out for a few days, advance a few meters.
    Repeat.

    Better : get a team. If you can't bring your own team, use
    relations to buy an enemy team.

    Profession and equipment : You don't want to use firearms
    against small targets. Perhaps use a machete for that.
    Pistol with some clips for larger enemies, with "Schalldämper"
    (sonic reducer?) of course. Larger weapons are inpratical
    for small rooms.

    Or just do it the hard way : Protection suit, and a few
    cannisters of poison gas...
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    > At 24 Aug 2005 12:09:42 GMT,
    > Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    >
    >
    >>The sattelite scans confirm the existence of various life forms in the
    >>bunkers -- and those are more than just rats and bats. Aside from wild
    >>animals, there are some mutants created in the biological labs. There can
    >>also be descendants of the guards, living in the facility, not knowing
    >>that the war is over.
    >
    >
    > I think I need to add a few words, because this description didn't make it
    > hostile enough ;)
    >
    > Obviously, the human survivors live in moderately safe parts of the
    > facility, and developed startegies to get their food and water and to
    > defend against all hostile creatures. The idea with the knowledge of
    > german language and all the german codes and passwords is great -- however
    > it's not guaranteed to work (I think a great novel could be written based
    > on this theme -- something like Brian Aldis's "Non Stop") -- the facility
    > was super-secret and isolated.

    Good point.

    >
    > Other creatures also need certain things to survive -- but those might be
    > very different from what human needs -- they are mutants and adapt very
    > fast.

    Yes, well, we are all mutants. ;)

    >
    > The environment can be different in different parts of the facility -- and
    > out hero is probably supposed to explore places that were abandoned or
    > even cut off and sealed.

    Good point.

    >
    > But note also that his mission is not to kill everything in sight or to
    > "clean" the facility -- he only has to retrieve certain materials. Based
    > on the signs and topology, he could probably search much more effectively
    > than checking the whole map.

    Another good reason to know German then.

    >
    > If it's possible, I'd like to know how you imagine such a person -- what
    > he wears, what skills he has, how he's supposed to behave in various
    > situations.

    Okay, a more in-depth (than the special forces person with general
    combat gear) and "solo" (than the Human Interaction guy) approach to the
    whole thing...

    You'd want a person with military training and probably a machine
    pistol. MP5SD would probably be ideal for most encounters - it has an
    integrated sound supressor, a slightly longer barrel than most pistols,
    but is still maneuverable enough for close encounters. Also, even
    traveling subsonically, 9mm pistol rounds carry enough of a punch to
    bring serious pain to any unarmoured target - and these Germans and
    Mutants aren't likely to have developed and manufactured kevlar all on
    their lonesome, have they?

    Poison is still my best bet against rats. Preferrably poison that also
    makes the rat's carcass poisonous.

    Bats - if they're Mad Mutant Killer Bats, I'd bring a shotgun.
    Preferrably sawn-off and with one of those rotating magazines. If they
    aren't, the method I mentioned in my earlier post should be good enough.

    Other gear carried - Food and water supplies. Preferrably in hard-shell
    airtight boxes, so they can be left lying about without mutants or rats
    or other creatures taking too much of an interest in the contents. (The
    idea being walking into the complex carrying the absolute max you could
    move about with, then dumping most of it near the entrance in a "base camp".

    Erik had great ideas as well, and expanding on them I thought of some
    sort of multi-purpose recording device, preferrably with an inertial
    navigation system and the ability to draw rough 3D maps based on the
    surroundings. Some sort of ultrasonic (above bat-range) sonar (or
    possibly actual radar - for the accuracy needed, those units can be made
    quite small now. Of course, some natural materials are rather
    radar-transparent.) to find out what the surroundings looked like, for
    the map (this could double as the proximity sensor for sleepy-time).

    Batteries to power all this equipment, of course. Likely military
    research has made some sort of fuel cell system viable already though.

    Basic climbing gear, possibly integrated into the
    uniform/armour/whatever being worn, with rope and some "friend" style
    fastening devices as well.

    A handful of C4 blocks (and detonators) - one never knows when stuff
    needs to be blown up.

    While speaking of blowing things up, grenades are rather versatile and
    easy to use. Quick booby traps, and handy when outnumbered.

    Another "consumable" that would be very handy would be breaklights - if
    the proximity alarm goes off while sleeping, you won't have time to put
    on those NV goggles (see below).

    Your generic Big Knife, for all those situations where it could come in
    handy.

    Some easily concealed weapons (again, thanks Erik) for those
    taken-prisoner scenarios.

    First Aid kit (and again, thanks Erik).

    And, as Erik says, a large backpack and a utility/storage belt would be
    neccessary.

    For more equipment, see below.


    Skills.

    Military special forces training takes care of very many of the skills
    one would need. Silent movement, room clearing (though this is most
    often done in teams - most special forces are team-based, come to think
    of it... hmm...), booby traps (placement and removal), combat inside
    buildings...

    In addition, you would need skills to navigate underground complexes
    without getting lost (a 3D map can only help you so much, if you even
    still / ever had it), skills to recognise different speices of animal
    and know whether they are agressive / edible / likely to lead you to a
    water source if you wait around / etc., language skills to read and
    speak German, and science skills to recognise the stuff you're actually
    looking for once you actually find it.


    > Funny how nobody mentioned a flashlight ;)

    That's a good point. You have to wonder how the people still living
    underground are keeping their living space lit though -- our keen
    eyesight is some of what gives us a marked advantage over many animals.
    Nuclear power is the only thing I'd imagine could last that long, and I
    don't find it likely that Germany developed nuclear power before they
    developed a working nuclear bomb. Bombs are easy compared to regulated
    power, after all.

    Also, we all know that things become *much* scarier if you bring a
    flashlight. You only see a small part of the room at a time. I would
    rather bring state-of-the-art night vision goggles, and for absolutely
    pitch black areas, you could turn on a LED in the NV goggles that would
    illuminate the area sufficiently. Preferrably NV goggles with either
    inline IR, or a separate IR mode.

    > A sleeping bag would be probably a good idea, for example (oh, why there
    > are no nullsacks in the real world?)

    Nullsacks?
    But yes, a sleeping bag might be a good idea. Ideally also some sort of
    portable alarm system, in case hostile creatures came close...
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:02:53 +0200,
    Elethiomel wrote:

    > Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    >> At 24 Aug 2005 12:09:42 GMT,
    >> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:

    >> Other creatures also need certain things to survive -- but those might be
    >> very different from what human needs -- they are mutants and adapt very
    >> fast.
    > Yes, well, we are all mutants. ;)

    But those ones mutate at unnaturally high rate.

    > You'd want a person with military training and probably a machine
    > pistol. MP5SD would probably be ideal for most encounters - it has an
    > integrated sound supressor, a slightly longer barrel than most pistols,
    > but is still maneuverable enough for close encounters. Also, even
    > traveling subsonically, 9mm pistol rounds carry enough of a punch to
    > bring serious pain to any unarmoured target - and these Germans and
    > Mutants aren't likely to have developed and manufactured kevlar all on
    > their lonesome, have they?

    Nice. Maybe some sort of airgun? They are usually much quiter and have
    lighter ammo. And the projectiles can always be poisoned (altrough you're
    never sure how mutants will react to this. On the other hand, there are
    many poisons deadly to any carbon-based bioforms).

    > Poison is still my best bet against rats. Preferrably poison that also
    > makes the rat's carcass poisonous.

    Maybe poisonous gas?

    > Bats - if they're Mad Mutant Killer Bats, I'd bring a shotgun.
    > Preferrably sawn-off and with one of those rotating magazines. If they
    > aren't, the method I mentioned in my earlier post should be good enough.

    I don't think that even enourmous, mutated bat could hurt even lightly
    armored human that's prepared. Altrough shotgun sounds really cool
    (especially one with a drum magazine).

    > Other gear carried - Food and water supplies.

    I've heard about water-purifying chemicals, in form of pills, but I'm not
    sure whether there's really something like this or is it fantasy. They
    surely woud't be able to neutralize all possible chemicals, but there's
    are chances they take care of the most common ones.

    > Preferrably in hard-shell
    > airtight boxes, so they can be left lying about without mutants or rats
    > or other creatures taking too much of an interest in the contents. (The
    > idea being walking into the complex carrying the absolute max you could
    > move about with, then dumping most of it near the entrance in a "base camp".

    Good point. You'd need a number of those containers, so that you can move
    some of your belongings and leave the rest.

    > Erik had great ideas as well, and expanding on them I thought of some
    > sort of multi-purpose recording device, preferrably with an inertial
    > navigation system and the ability to draw rough 3D maps based on the
    > surroundings. Some sort of ultrasonic (above bat-range) sonar (or
    > possibly actual radar - for the accuracy needed, those units can be made
    > quite small now. Of course, some natural materials are rather
    > radar-transparent.) to find out what the surroundings looked like, for
    > the map (this could double as the proximity sensor for sleepy-time).

    You could use a laser-based scanner (probably ultra-violet or infra-red,
    so that's not easily visible), that would kick in every several steps and
    make a 3d map of your surroundings.

    Shame you cannot use GPS.

    The device could have a large memory with all sort of technical
    information you could need but don't have time to learn.

    Also some basic sensors -- vibration, radiation, chemical substances in
    the air, temperature, maybe a program for spectral analysis of materials
    hit with special laser probe, etc.

    > Batteries to power all this equipment, of course. Likely military
    > research has made some sort of fuel cell system viable already though.

    Also, some sort of emergency power source in case the batteries are
    destroyed.

    > Basic climbing gear, possibly integrated into the
    > uniform/armour/whatever being worn, with rope and some "friend" style
    > fastening devices as well.

    > A handful of C4 blocks (and detonators) - one never knows when stuff
    > needs to be blown up.

    A set of basic tools (including crowbar, wire cutters, maybe
    a mini-drill). Chemicals to get rid of rust and dirt from mechanisms.
    Blowtorch with some fuel (there are miniaturised ones which use
    very effective fuel). Lockpicking tools.
    Maybe some materials (light but strong fabrics, strings, glue) you
    could use to build whatever you need at the moment.

    > While speaking of blowing things up, grenades are rather versatile and
    > easy to use. Quick booby traps, and handy when outnumbered.

    I think gas grenades could come in pretty handy. Of course you also
    need a gas mask (and probably also some oxygen for the cases when your
    filters are not enough).

    > Another "consumable" that would be very handy would be breaklights - if
    > the proximity alarm goes off while sleeping, you won't have time to put
    > on those NV goggles (see below).

    I think you need some sort of light source anyways -- for camping at
    least. People go insane after several days in total darkness (on the other
    hand, people who live near the north pole might have other experiences).

    Also some cooking gear, so that you can save your rations, or just make
    them more edible.

    > Your generic Big Knife, for all those situations where it could come in
    > handy.
    >
    > Some easily concealed weapons (again, thanks Erik) for those
    > taken-prisoner scenarios.
    >
    > First Aid kit (and again, thanks Erik).

    I think you'd need a really well-prepared and good First Aid kit,
    including various drugs and stimulants for extreme situations.

    > And, as Erik says, a large backpack and a utility/storage belt would be
    > neccessary.

    You'd probably also need some spare bags -- they always come in handy.

    > For more equipment, see below.
    >
    >
    > Skills.
    >
    > Military special forces training takes care of very many of the skills
    > one would need. Silent movement, room clearing (though this is most
    > often done in teams - most special forces are team-based, come to think
    > of it... hmm...), booby traps (placement and removal), combat inside
    > buildings...
    >
    > In addition, you would need skills to navigate underground complexes
    > without getting lost (a 3D map can only help you so much, if you even
    > still / ever had it), skills to recognise different speices of animal
    > and know whether they are agressive / edible / likely to lead you to a
    > water source if you wait around / etc., language skills to read and
    > speak German, and science skills to recognise the stuff you're actually
    > looking for once you actually find it.

    Seems like some caves-exploration experiences would come in handy.

    You'd obviously need the skills to use all of your equipment effectively.
    Also, not so obviously, the skills and knowledge to repair or substitute
    them when necessary.

    You'd technical knowledge about the technology and standards popular at
    the time the facility was built.

    >> Funny how nobody mentioned a flashlight ;)
    > That's a good point. You have to wonder how the people still living
    > underground are keeping their living space lit though -- our keen
    > eyesight is some of what gives us a marked advantage over many animals.

    They'd probably use torches, oil lamps and the like. Also some more
    advanced gas or karbid lamps were popular at the time, and the facility is
    supposed to have very large supplies.

    > Nuclear power is the only thing I'd imagine could last that long, and I
    > don't find it likely that Germany developed nuclear power before they
    > developed a working nuclear bomb. Bombs are easy compared to regulated
    > power, after all.

    It doesn't have to be Germany, and the guard's descendants don't have to
    be civilized anymore.
    On the other hand, there can be storage rooms with vacuum-sealed machines
    and parts.

    > Also, we all know that things become *much* scarier if you bring a
    > flashlight.

    You can bring a full-featured lamp, that will shine bright and have an
    additional advantage of scaring away most creatures. Probably a chemical
    lamp, as it's usually lighter and doesn;t need batteries.

    > You only see a small part of the room at a time. I would
    > rather bring state-of-the-art night vision goggles, and for absolutely
    > pitch black areas, you could turn on a LED in the NV goggles that would
    > illuminate the area sufficiently. Preferrably NV goggles with either
    > inline IR, or a separate IR mode.

    Googles come in handy when sneaking or scouting, but I can't imagine
    wearing them all the time.

    >> A sleeping bag would be probably a good idea, for example (oh, why there
    >> are no nullsacks in the real world?)

    > Nullsacks?

    It's a device taken form a book "Redliners", by David Drake. It's a kind
    of sleeping bag, totally muffling all sounds, radiation, etc.
    It's matte black from the outside, keeps you warm and comfy because it
    keeps your own heat inside.

    > But yes, a sleeping bag might be a good idea. Ideally also some sort of
    > portable alarm system, in case hostile creatures came close...

    Good camping equipment can keep you in better shape. It's not
    combat/exploration all the time.

    --
    Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
    (Xx) 3 ...
    . . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    > At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:02:53 +0200,
    > Elethiomel wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    >>
    >>>At 24 Aug 2005 12:09:42 GMT,
    >>> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    >
    >
    >>>Other creatures also need certain things to survive -- but those might be
    >>>very different from what human needs -- they are mutants and adapt very
    >>>fast.
    >>
    >>Yes, well, we are all mutants. ;)
    >
    >
    > But those ones mutate at unnaturally high rate.

    Probably plausible. Everything and its grandmother causes cancer, and
    that's mutation. Super high mutation causing chemicals might exist.

    >>You'd want a person with military training and probably a machine
    >>pistol. MP5SD would probably be ideal for most encounters - it has an
    >>integrated sound supressor, a slightly longer barrel than most pistols,
    >>but is still maneuverable enough for close encounters. Also, even
    >>traveling subsonically, 9mm pistol rounds carry enough of a punch to
    >>bring serious pain to any unarmoured target - and these Germans and
    >>Mutants aren't likely to have developed and manufactured kevlar all on
    >>their lonesome, have they?
    >
    > Nice. Maybe some sort of airgun? They are usually much quiter and have
    > lighter ammo. And the projectiles can always be poisoned (altrough you're
    > never sure how mutants will react to this. On the other hand, there are
    > many poisons deadly to any carbon-based bioforms).

    Yes, a sort of airgun could work. You should hear how quiet the MP5SD is
    though; all you really hear is the springs and stuff moving inside the
    gun, and a tiny "putt" when the bullet exits. Also, airguns aren't
    normally fully automatic. ;)

    A muffled, spring-loaded "crossbow" would probably be quietest of all.
    Or just stuff you throw, like shuriken or other throwing knives.

    >
    >>Poison is still my best bet against rats. Preferrably poison that also
    >>makes the rat's carcass poisonous.
    >
    > Maybe poisonous gas?

    Good idea. You'd have to be careful about ventilation ducts and such
    though, so the gas didn't spread into adjacent areas where you don't
    expect it and thus isn't wearing your mask. (Those things are way
    difficult to breathe in!)

    >>Bats - if they're Mad Mutant Killer Bats, I'd bring a shotgun.
    >>Preferrably sawn-off and with one of those rotating magazines. If they
    >>aren't, the method I mentioned in my earlier post should be good enough.
    >
    > I don't think that even enourmous, mutated bat could hurt even lightly
    > armored human that's prepared. Altrough shotgun sounds really cool
    > (especially one with a drum magazine).

    Well, if there are lots and lots of them, they might be able to hurt
    you. And yes, shotgun is nice for this, but I think too large, heavy,
    and otherwise unwieldy to justify bringing along *just* for bats. Poison
    gas would work here too. The reason why I didn't suggest poison for bats
    was that I couldn't figure a way to get the poison into them. Didn't
    think of gas, stupid me.


    >>Other gear carried - Food and water supplies.
    >
    > I've heard about water-purifying chemicals, in form of pills, but I'm not
    > sure whether there's really something like this or is it fantasy. They
    > surely woud't be able to neutralize all possible chemicals, but there's
    > are chances they take care of the most common ones.

    Well, you do have water filters which will get rid of *most* ugly stuff
    in water (they can even be used to make bad vodka into better vodka, see
    http://www.ohmygoditburns.com/wordpress/index.php?p=4 ), and with one of
    those mystery water purification pills I think most water found
    underground would be safe to drink. You could bring along a spectrometer
    to test this, but that's probably too heavy, and also overkill.

    >>Preferrably in hard-shell
    >>airtight boxes, so they can be left lying about without mutants or rats
    >>or other creatures taking too much of an interest in the contents. (The
    >>idea being walking into the complex carrying the absolute max you could
    >>move about with, then dumping most of it near the entrance in a "base camp".
    >
    > Good point. You'd need a number of those containers, so that you can move
    > some of your belongings and leave the rest.

    Yeah, that's why I said boxes. ;)


    [portable multi-recorder with sonar and 3D mapmaking capability]
    > You could use a laser-based scanner (probably ultra-violet or infra-red,
    > so that's not easily visible), that would kick in every several steps and
    > make a 3d map of your surroundings.

    Good point.

    > Shame you cannot use GPS.

    Yeah.

    > The device could have a large memory with all sort of technical
    > information you could need but don't have time to learn.

    Good point. It'd be like a super-PDA.

    > Also some basic sensors -- vibration, radiation, chemical substances in
    > the air, temperature, maybe a program for spectral analysis of materials
    > hit with special laser probe, etc.

    Now we're getting to NASA Mars Probe level tech, but I suppose that if
    your country *really* wants this information, that's okay.

    >>Batteries to power all this equipment, of course. Likely military
    >>research has made some sort of fuel cell system viable already though.
    >
    > Also, some sort of emergency power source in case the batteries are
    > destroyed.

    Good point. But what sort should that be? A tiny generator with a handle
    like those manual mixmasters?

    >>Basic climbing gear, possibly integrated into the
    >>uniform/armour/whatever being worn, with rope and some "friend" style
    >>fastening devices as well.
    >>A handful of C4 blocks (and detonators) - one never knows when stuff
    >>needs to be blown up.
    >
    > A set of basic tools (including crowbar, wire cutters, maybe
    > a mini-drill). Chemicals to get rid of rust and dirt from mechanisms.
    > Blowtorch with some fuel (there are miniaturised ones which use
    > very effective fuel). Lockpicking tools.
    > Maybe some materials (light but strong fabrics, strings, glue) you
    > could use to build whatever you need at the moment.

    All those are good, and probably light weight (except the crowbar). And
    don't forget oil for your guns.

    >>While speaking of blowing things up, grenades are rather versatile and
    >>easy to use. Quick booby traps, and handy when outnumbered.
    >
    > I think gas grenades could come in pretty handy. Of course you also
    > need a gas mask (and probably also some oxygen for the cases when your
    > filters are not enough).

    Yeah - I think a gas mask would be a good idea anyway. Who knows what
    the air quality is like in some of the sealed-off parts of the base you
    might want to pass through.

    >>Another "consumable" that would be very handy would be breaklights - if
    >>the proximity alarm goes off while sleeping, you won't have time to put
    >>on those NV goggles (see below).
    >
    > I think you need some sort of light source anyways -- for camping at
    > least. People go insane after several days in total darkness (on the other
    > hand, people who live near the north pole might have other experiences).

    I'm from Norway. I don't think I'd go mad in total darkness... Just
    rather sleepy. A good gas light like you suggested later in your post
    would be good, I think. Though I'm feeling we're starting to really pile
    on the weight here.

    >
    > Also some cooking gear, so that you can save your rations, or just make
    > them more edible.

    Again, weight issues.


    >>First Aid kit (and again, thanks Erik).
    > I think you'd need a really well-prepared and good First Aid kit,
    > including various drugs and stimulants for extreme situations.

    Yeah, I suppose so. But again, it can't be too heavy or bulky.

    >>And, as Erik says, a large backpack and a utility/storage belt would be
    >>neccessary.
    > You'd probably also need some spare bags -- they always come in handy.

    Yes, extra bags would be handy - but you will get empty boxes from food
    and water consumption pretty quick.

    >>Skills.
    >>
    >>Military special forces training takes care of very many of the skills
    >>one would need. Silent movement, room clearing (though this is most
    >>often done in teams - most special forces are team-based, come to think
    >>of it... hmm...), booby traps (placement and removal), combat inside
    >>buildings...
    >>
    >>In addition, you would need skills to navigate underground complexes
    >>without getting lost (a 3D map can only help you so much, if you even
    >>still / ever had it), skills to recognise different speices of animal
    >>and know whether they are agressive / edible / likely to lead you to a
    >>water source if you wait around / etc., language skills to read and
    >>speak German, and science skills to recognise the stuff you're actually
    >>looking for once you actually find it.
    >
    >
    > Seems like some caves-exploration experiences would come in handy.

    Yes, I'd think so.

    > You'd obviously need the skills to use all of your equipment effectively.
    > Also, not so obviously, the skills and knowledge to repair or substitute
    > them when necessary.

    *nod* good point.

    > You'd technical knowledge about the technology and standards popular at
    > the time the facility was built.

    That's why I suggested in my "social engineer" persona that he be a
    total WW2 buff.


    >>>Funny how nobody mentioned a flashlight ;)
    >>
    >>That's a good point. You have to wonder how the people still living
    >>underground are keeping their living space lit though -- our keen
    >>eyesight is some of what gives us a marked advantage over many animals.
    >
    > They'd probably use torches, oil lamps and the like. Also some more
    > advanced gas or karbid lamps were popular at the time, and the facility is
    > supposed to have very large supplies.

    60 years of lamp oil? 60 years of burnable material? How is this
    underground complex kept with fresh air, if there's no power to fans or
    such - and especially if people are burning stuff there?

    >
    >>Nuclear power is the only thing I'd imagine could last that long, and I
    >>don't find it likely that Germany developed nuclear power before they
    >>developed a working nuclear bomb. Bombs are easy compared to regulated
    >>power, after all.
    >
    > It doesn't have to be Germany, and the guard's descendants don't have to
    > be civilized anymore.
    > On the other hand, there can be storage rooms with vacuum-sealed machines
    > and parts.

    Good points.

    >
    >>Also, we all know that things become *much* scarier if you bring a
    >>flashlight.
    >
    > You can bring a full-featured lamp, that will shine bright and have an
    > additional advantage of scaring away most creatures. Probably a chemical
    > lamp, as it's usually lighter and doesn;t need batteries.

    Good point.

    >
    >>You only see a small part of the room at a time. I would
    >>rather bring state-of-the-art night vision goggles, and for absolutely
    >>pitch black areas, you could turn on a LED in the NV goggles that would
    >>illuminate the area sufficiently. Preferrably NV goggles with either
    >>inline IR, or a separate IR mode.
    >
    > Googles come in handy when sneaking or scouting, but I can't imagine
    > wearing them all the time.

    Also a good point. I think goggles like that are rather hard on
    batteries, though I had no problems the only time I wore a pair, for
    what I think was 4 hours.

    >>>A sleeping bag would be probably a good idea, for example (oh, why there
    >>>are no nullsacks in the real world?)
    >>Nullsacks?
    >
    > It's a device taken form a book "Redliners", by David Drake. It's a kind
    > of sleeping bag, totally muffling all sounds, radiation, etc.
    > It's matte black from the outside, keeps you warm and comfy because it
    > keeps your own heat inside.

    Yeah, that would be super handy. It would have to have some sort of
    outlet for heat though - if totally insulated, the body quickly overheats.

    >>But yes, a sleeping bag might be a good idea. Ideally also some sort of
    >>portable alarm system, in case hostile creatures came close...
    >
    > Good camping equipment can keep you in better shape. It's not
    > combat/exploration all the time.
    >

    I can personally attest to this. (that good camping equipment can keep
    you in better shape), but it's also important to keep in mind that while
    you sleep the best sleep in your life in your anti-grav suspended
    nullsack, a Grue can come eat you. ;)

    I have a suggestion on the off chance that you're actually trying to
    make a roguelike out of this; Balance the game so that it is very
    survivable if you have all of this equipment, but make it so the
    character has an accident or something just before entering the complex,
    and may choose which 5 (or some number) items he was keeping the closest
    eye on.
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:58:51 +0200,
    Elethiomel wrote:

    > Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    >> At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:02:53 +0200,
    >> Elethiomel wrote:
    >>>Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    >>>>At 24 Aug 2005 12:09:42 GMT,
    >>>> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:

    > I have a suggestion on the off chance that you're actually trying to
    > make a roguelike out of this;

    Well, it's not that I lack ideas on new roguelikes to write. This one is
    rather a story made up to justify a dungeon in modern setting.

    I remembered about those roguelike heroes going underground wearing their
    gothic full plate armour, wielding a two (or at least 1.5) handed sword
    and a tower shield, and then thought about what equipment I would choose
    if I was supposed to go into a dungeon.

    I imagined myself wearing a thick leather coat (for protection), a cork
    helmet with light, wielding a machette and a light shield (it comes in
    handy), with additional spear (something like naginata probably) and
    a sailor's bag on my back. Of course heavy boots and a belt with molotov
    coctails made of oild flasks. And a cigar to ignite the molotvs (altrough
    I don't smoke). A lenght of line across my shoulder and that's pretty much
    all, aside from some useful tools and miscelany stuff in my bag. Oh, and
    thick leather glowes, and maybe a scarf, like in westerns.

    Then I noticed that I woudl choose roughly the same equipment nowadays
    (sure, some sort of a handgun would make an excellent addition).

    Then I thought on how to ask about opinion of others and I made up this
    story.

    > Balance the game so that it is very
    > survivable if you have all of this equipment, but make it so the
    > character has an accident or something just before entering the complex,
    > and may choose which 5 (or some number) items he was keeping the closest
    > eye on.

    May be an interesting approach for character generation.

    --
    Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
    (==) 3 Yawn?
    . . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    > At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:58:51 +0200,
    > Elethiomel wrote:
    >>I have a suggestion on the off chance that you're actually trying to
    >>make a roguelike out of this;
    >
    >
    > Well, it's not that I lack ideas on new roguelikes to write. This one is
    > rather a story made up to justify a dungeon in modern setting.

    I am seriously contemplating making a Cyberpunk roguelike. It would be
    my first roguelike, though, and I'm just starting to study at what's
    rumored to be Norway's most challenging university (And they also have a
    "girl/boyfriend guarantee"). So we'll see. Anyway, that roguelike
    wouldn't have "dungeons" as such, but maybe sewer systems and certainly
    corporate office / lab buildings.

    >
    > I remembered about those roguelike heroes going underground wearing their
    > gothic full plate armour, wielding a two (or at least 1.5) handed sword
    > and a tower shield, and then thought about what equipment I would choose
    > if I was supposed to go into a dungeon.
    >
    > I imagined myself wearing a thick leather coat (for protection), a cork
    > helmet with light, wielding a machette and a light shield (it comes in
    > handy), with additional spear (something like naginata probably) and
    > a sailor's bag on my back. Of course heavy boots and a belt with molotov
    > coctails made of oild flasks. And a cigar to ignite the molotvs (altrough
    > I don't smoke). A lenght of line across my shoulder and that's pretty much
    > all, aside from some useful tools and miscelany stuff in my bag. Oh, and
    > thick leather glowes, and maybe a scarf, like in westerns.
    >
    > Then I noticed that I woudl choose roughly the same equipment nowadays
    > (sure, some sort of a handgun would make an excellent addition).
    >
    > Then I thought on how to ask about opinion of others and I made up this
    > story.

    Ah, I see. Well, as you understand; I am gadget man. Your approach
    sounds much less prone to battery failure, dampness and dankness making
    things not work, etc. Also it has hugely more dramatic impact.
    Personally, I imagine a leather coat with those huge tubular collars
    like the ones seen in Brotherhood of the Wolf.

    >>Balance the game so that it is very
    >>survivable if you have all of this equipment, but make it so the
    >>character has an accident or something just before entering the complex,
    >>and may choose which 5 (or some number) items he was keeping the closest
    >>eye on.

    > May be an interesting approach for character generation.

    That was the idea I suddenly had.
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:34:50 +0200,
    Elethiomel wrote:

    > Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    >> At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:58:51 +0200,
    >> Elethiomel wrote:
    > I am seriously contemplating making a Cyberpunk roguelike. It would be
    > my first roguelike, though, and I'm just starting to study at what's
    > rumored to be Norway's most challenging university

    >(And they also have a
    > "girl/boyfriend guarantee").

    ???

    > So we'll see. Anyway, that roguelike
    > wouldn't have "dungeons" as such, but maybe sewer systems and certainly
    > corporate office / lab buildings.

    I have one story for a 'cyberpunk dungeon':

    The enemy corporation had a major accident in one of it's labs (Farben
    hill maybe). It makes the lab vulnerable to attacks, so naturally all
    other corporations send their scouts to scavenge as much information and
    technology as possible.

    You were a part of such a group, but got separated from your allies. Still
    you're determined to carry out your mission (or maybe you just want to
    stop te chaos so that you can be rescued).

    The corporation did all sort of experiments, plus it had very tight
    security (which have gone highwire now), so you've got your traditional
    roguelike dungeon with everything in it hostile. Plus, you can have
    enemies other than people (bioweapons, security droids, experimental
    mutants).

    This gives you the 'Rogue' dungeon -- with one-way stairs, all enemies
    acting on their own, useful items and equipment scattered around,
    labirynth of rooms, info discs you collect instead of gold (the more you
    collect, the better chance there's some valuable info on them), etc.

    >> I imagined myself wearing a thick leather coat (for protection), a cork
    >> helmet with light, wielding a machette and a light shield (it comes in
    >> handy), with additional spear (something like naginata probably) and
    >> a sailor's bag on my back. Of course heavy boots and a belt with molotov
    >> coctails made of oild flasks. And a cigar to ignite the molotvs (altrough
    >> I don't smoke). A lenght of line across my shoulder and that's pretty much
    >> all, aside from some useful tools and miscelany stuff in my bag. Oh, and
    >> thick leather glowes, and maybe a scarf, like in westerns.

    > Ah, I see. Well, as you understand; I am gadget man.
    Well, in my story I allowed absolutely any equipment, no matter what the
    costs are -- so it's natural you choose the best, the most functional and
    the lightest equipment -- so that you can take more of it.

    > Your approach
    > sounds much less prone to battery failure, dampness and dankness making
    > things not work, etc.

    Just KISS ;)

    > Also it has hugely more dramatic impact.
    > Personally, I imagine a leather coat with those huge tubular collars
    > like the ones seen in Brotherhood of the Wolf.

    I'd rather prefer a trencher's coat, maybe with an added hood for
    additional protection.

    If you add the gas mask, I might look like the WarZone's trencher:
    <http://www.cavumdraconis.de/Tabletop/warzone/portrait/kr-grabenkaempfer.jpg>

    --
    Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
    (Xx) 3 ...
    . . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@ sheep.prv.pl> wrote:
    >I was wondering...
    >
    >If there was some kind of roguelike dungeon existing in the real world,
    >and you'd have to choose a hero to enter it to carry his mission, and
    >his equipment too, what would you choose?
    >
    >For those who need a story to get a better picture, try this (I'm not
    >a novel writer and don't have as good imagination as Hajo, so forgive me):
    >
    >The spy sattelites have detected a large underground network of WW2
    >bunkers and fortifications. The bunkers are so well hidden, nobody
    >found them before. They are located on enemy terriority (well, not exactly
    >enemy, as there's no war going on, but the country is not very friendly
    >and it's impossible to send any large group of people to investigate).
    >
    >The bunkers are supposed to be an underground laboratory and weapon
    >factory. Somewhere on the lowest levels there are supposed to be the
    >blueprints of 'wunderwaffe', a technologically advanced weapon that was
    >never used. You want them, and you want them bad. Furthermore, there were
    >some leaks in your security, so the other countries also suspect the
    >existence of the laboratory -- but they don't know where to look.
    >
    >You can only send one man to retrieve the blueprints -- any larger group
    >would only attract unwanted attention. Once he enters the bunkers, he
    >cannot come out -- the other country's spie sattelites would spot him
    >easily. He must carry all of his equipment on him -- no way to transport
    >more than he can carry.
    >
    >The sattelite scans confirm the existence of various life forms in the
    >bunkers -- and those are more than just rats and bats. Aside from wild
    >animals, there are some mutants created in the biological labs. There can
    >also be descendants of the guards, living in the facility, not knowing
    >that the war is over.
    >
    >You can assume it's like the first dozen levels of Angband.
    >
    >Now, the question -- what proffession and equipment would you need?

    TURN IT INTO A ROGUELIKE PLS.
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    > At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:34:50 +0200,
    > Elethiomel wrote:
    >>(And they also have a
    >>"girl/boyfriend guarantee").
    >
    > ???

    On their website they state that if you study at this university, they
    guarantee you that some time during your studies, you will have a
    romantic relationship. [1]

    > If you add the gas mask, I might look like the WarZone's trencher:
    > <http://www.cavumdraconis.de/Tabletop/warzone/portrait/kr-grabenkaempfer.jpg>
    >

    That looks very cool. And here are the ones from BotW:
    http://www.impawards.com/2002/posters/brotherhood_of_the_wolf.jpg


    [1] Provided that you actually leave the apartment, lecture hall, and
    direct path between the two once in a while.
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:30:02 +0200,
    Elethiomel wrote:

    > Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    >> At Wed, 24 Aug 2005 20:34:50 +0200,
    >> Elethiomel wrote:
    >>>(And they also have a
    >>>"girl/boyfriend guarantee").
    >> ???
    > On their website they state that if you study at this university, they
    > guarantee you that some time during your studies, you will have a
    > romantic relationship. [1]

    Doesn't it scare people off? Oo)

    --
    Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
    (Uu) 3 Sigh!
    . . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    "Andreas Koch" <nospam@kochandreas.com> wrote in message
    news:dehvfc$f2m$01$1@news.t-online.com...
    > Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    >> I was wondering...
    >>
    >> If there was some kind of roguelike dungeon existing in the real
    >> world,
    >> and you'd have to choose a hero to enter it to carry his mission, and
    >> his equipment too, what would you choose?
    >
    > Well... no sane real life person would go on a mission with a death
    > probability anywhere near as a roguelike. If they'de be forced to
    > do so, they would probably low level powertrain ... for example,
    > build a hut near the entrance, and shoot everything that comes
    > out. If nothing comes out for a few days, advance a few meters.
    > Repeat.
    >

    No way! Just get an insane person.

    > Better : get a team. If you can't bring your own team, use
    > relations to buy an enemy team.
    >
    > Profession and equipment : You don't want to use firearms
    > against small targets. Perhaps use a machete for that.
    > Pistol with some clips for larger enemies, with "Schalldämper"
    > (sonic reducer?) of course. Larger weapons are inpratical
    > for small rooms.
    >
    > Or just do it the hard way : Protection suit, and a few
    > cannisters of poison gas...
    >

    Bah, I like the insane dude idea :).

    --
    Glen
    L:Pyt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
    W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Elethiomel wrote:
    [...]
    > You'd want a person with military training and probably a machine
    > pistol. MP5SD would probably be ideal for most encounters - it has an
    > integrated sound supressor, a slightly longer barrel than most pistols,
    > but is still maneuverable enough for close encounters. Also, even
    > traveling subsonically, 9mm pistol rounds carry enough of a punch to
    > bring serious pain to any unarmoured target - and these Germans and
    > Mutants aren't likely to have developed and manufactured kevlar all on
    > their lonesome, have they?

    The small version of the MP5 is the MP5K, and it doesn't have a sound
    suppressor; the variant with the suppressor is the MP5SD and it is
    about as big as the full-sized models.
    I'm not being pedantic about model names, it is a fact that suppressors
    are too long for truly small guns; but this can become an interesting
    choice for the player. Louder weapons attract more monsters from
    greater distances, large weapons should be heavy and possibly slow.
    Size/effectiveness tradeoffs like this have a central role because the
    game is about very limited resources and larger firearms are generally
    much more deadly than smaller ones: encumbrance should be emphasized in
    the rules and in the user interface.
    The inventory should have no limitation to the number of different item
    types (to reward diversification and forethought) and instead restrict
    weight, size and slot. For example, an overburdened character shouldn't
    be a little "slow" like in Angband: he shouldn't move at all or become
    very fatigued. A fatigue system, by the way, would be useful in combat
    to balance the use of big weapons with an immediate cost.
    The player should discard weapons when new ones are found, carefully
    estimate how much of each of the many special ammo types he will need,
    fill magazines with mixed rounds (special UI), hide caches of stuff
    here and there (special UI for marking places on the map) and generally
    care about maximizing the usefulness of carried equipment.

    I'd recommend a few nicely compatible systems of weapons, ammo and
    accessories, like medium caliber pistol and SMG (e.g. 9mm), shotgun
    (e.g. 12 gauge) and rifle (e.g. 7.62 mm) rounds, grenades for grenade
    launchers, arrows, batteries for energy weapons. For each standard
    there can be many compatible variants of the basic type: high capacity
    batteries, poisoned and explosive arrows, and all sorts of firearm
    cartridges: armour piercing, soft, blank, flechette, explosive,
    subsonic...
    Too many ammo standards are a serious problem when encumbrance is
    limited: lack of ammo makes the corresponding bulky firearms worthless
    and keeping good ammo without its weapon is also a complete luxury. In
    a randomly generated world ammo and weapon mismatches are statistically
    guaranteed, so it's better to mitigate them with compatible but
    inferior ammo and weapons: a pistol instead of the lost SMG, valuable
    poisoned arrows against a robot after the regular ones have ended, etc.
    Gun accessories should be compatible with most or all weapons of the
    same caliber, even if it's not completely realistic; they can be a
    powerful tool in the game and a source of variety and interesting
    choices for the player (Sights or laser pointer? Suppressor or
    bayonet?).
    Useful accessories include suppressors (maybe multiple models with a
    size/effectiveness tradeoff), laser projectors, sights, bayonets,
    grenade launchers, extended or lightweight magazines.

    The value proposition of a pistol or SMG should be the small size of
    weapon and ammo, and maybe the low recoil. Basic types could include a
    small pistol (rather useless for the better armed hero, but good for
    equipping monsters and as backup), a short SMG (like the MP5K) and a
    long and heavier SMG (like the MP5) with slightly better range and
    accuracy. For variety, there might be single shot pistols (either
    ornate and precious or accurate and delicate competition models, they
    shouldn't be worthless), revolvers and variations in accuracy and
    reliability.

    Shotguns, as DOOM teached us, should be the best option for close
    unarmored monsters; models are varied (one or two barrels, long or
    sawed off, slow or fast reloading, more or less rounds) and military
    ones could have automatic fire.

    Rifles should be good for general use and for sniping from a distance,
    but they are heavy.
    There should only be modern assault rifles (of varying quality and
    accessories); specialty sniper rifles would realistically use
    incompatible ammo, which is bad, and older types are quite obsolete and
    not cool.
    There could also be machine guns using rifle shots; very hard to carry
    but good for heroic use in open spaces.
    Representing the extended action of aiming an automatic fire weapon in
    a turn based game can be an issue.

    The elite soldier discussed in earlier posts should start very well
    armed with anything the player wants, subject to encumbrance limits and
    with the exclusion of extremely expensive and experimental stuff (or
    maybe with a cost limit).

    Ammo is obviously limited and weapons and accessories can jam or break,
    making the character dependent on salvaged enemy equipment.
    For the "wonder weapons" theme, there should be weapon treasures: a
    limited amount of exotic and very effective ammo, some strange and
    specialized weapons and accessories (real examples: guns with a curved
    barrel for shooting around corners and sealed one-shot pistols for
    underwater use), maybe incompatible and unrenewable enemy-only weapon
    systems (caseless prototypes and Soviet rifle calibers come to mind).

    Lorenzo Gatti
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Elethiomel wrote:
    [...]
    > I'd disagree here. There wouldn't be all that many different ammo types
    > available in a bunker staffed by a specific nation's or even alliance's
    > military during WW2. Or any armed conflict, for that matter - ammunition
    > tends to be standardized in the military to just a few types. Most
    > probably 1 pistol ammo size, 1 rifle ammo size, and 1 machine gun ammo

    In fact shotguns should be unavailable if not used by the enemy; a
    large caliber for machine guns and powerful sniper rifles is the most
    likely replacement.

    > size. With the resources of a government behind you, it shouldn't be too
    > difficult to have a weapon of your preferred type modified and
    > manufactured to be able to take WW2 size ammo of the relevant type - and
    > be superior to any WW2 weapon found.

    I agree that the weapon standards should be those of the enemy
    (equipping the hero with custom adaptations and possibly museum
    pieces): allowing the use of found ammo is a sufficient reason.
    However, if the enemy is compatible enough with the hero's side more
    toys become available.

    [...]
    > >
    > > The elite soldier discussed in earlier posts should start very well
    > > armed with anything the player wants, subject to encumbrance limits and
    > > with the exclusion of extremely expensive and experimental stuff (or
    > > maybe with a cost limit).
    >
    > Why? Your nation is already putting millions on the line (spy sattelite
    > time, counter-intelligence operations, security clearing the soldier in
    > question, transporting ths soldier in question into the area in question
    > [more counter intelligence here], etc..) for this piece of information
    > in the bottom of this WW2 bunker - a couple hundred thousand extra for a
    > cool gadget or better weapon won't make a dent.

    Many weapons can be so obscure and experimental that they aren't
    available (at least not in time for the mission) or so illegal or
    dangerous that the military don't use them.
    The most outrageous weapons can be unique specimen found in the enemy
    secret labs.

    >
    > > Ammo is obviously limited and weapons and accessories can jam or break,
    >
    > Yes, a jamming or breaking weapon is a good reason to go hunting for a
    > new one. If you don't have the skill and ability to scrounge the
    > equipment to fix the weapon you already have.

    I think the repairs and maintenance a soldier can do in the battlefield
    with the limited tools and time he has are limited to disassembling and
    reassembling some parts and cleaning them.
    Finding and conquering the enemy workshop, getting there when needed,
    securing it and making complex repairs can be an interesting activity,
    but in the short term spare weapons are needed and in the longer term
    some weapons cannot be repaired at all.

    > > making the character dependent on salvaged enemy equipment.
    > > For the "wonder weapons" theme, there should be weapon treasures: a
    > > limited amount of exotic and very effective ammo, some strange and
    > > specialized weapons and accessories (real examples: guns with a curved
    > > barrel for shooting around corners and sealed one-shot pistols for
    > > underwater use), maybe incompatible and unrenewable enemy-only weapon
    > > systems (caseless prototypes and Soviet rifle calibers come to mind).
    >
    > Well, if your nation thinks it likely that the enemy in the bunker uses
    > Soviet ammo, they'll roll out a modified weapon of your favourite type
    > which can use soviet ammo and send soviet-caliber ammo with you. ;)

    Don't take the Soviet rifle calibers literally, it was just an example
    of enemy equipment that is practically equivalent but gratuitously
    incompatible.

    On the whole, it seems you prefer a quasi-realistic WW2 setting and
    technology level while I want to maximize the weird, high tech, and
    even unrealistic equipment; they are different and only partly
    overlapping tastes.

    Lorenzo Gatti
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    gatti@dsdata.it wrote:
    > Elethiomel wrote:
    > [...]
    >
    >>You'd want a person with military training and probably a machine
    >>pistol. MP5SD would probably be ideal for most encounters - it has an
    >>integrated sound supressor, a slightly longer barrel than most pistols,
    >>but is still maneuverable enough for close encounters. Also, even
    >>traveling subsonically, 9mm pistol rounds carry enough of a punch to
    >>bring serious pain to any unarmoured target - and these Germans and
    >>Mutants aren't likely to have developed and manufactured kevlar all on
    >>their lonesome, have they?
    >
    >
    > The small version of the MP5 is the MP5K, and it doesn't have a sound
    > suppressor; the variant with the suppressor is the MP5SD and it is
    > about as big as the full-sized models.

    I know. When I said "slightly longer barrel than most pistols",
    "slightly" was ambiguously defined. The MP5K actually has a shorter
    barrel than many pistols (due to the breech being placed very near the
    location of the magazine).


    > I'm not being pedantic about model names, it is a fact that suppressors
    > are too long for truly small guns; but this can become an interesting
    > choice for the player. Louder weapons attract more monsters from
    > greater distances, large weapons should be heavy and possibly slow.

    Yes, but machine pistols like the MP5(SD) are short enough for the
    situation, IMHO. The only reason I can see that you would want to bring
    a pistol *instead* of a machine pistol into such a situation would be
    the weight consideration.

    > Size/effectiveness tradeoffs like this have a central role because the
    > game is about very limited resources and larger firearms are generally
    > much more deadly than smaller ones: encumbrance should be emphasized in
    > the rules and in the user interface.

    Here, I'd agree completely.

    > The inventory should have no limitation to the number of different item
    > types (to reward diversification and forethought) and instead restrict
    > weight, size and slot. For example, an overburdened character shouldn't
    > be a little "slow" like in Angband: he shouldn't move at all or become
    > very fatigued. A fatigue system, by the way, would be useful in combat
    > to balance the use of big weapons with an immediate cost.
    > The player should discard weapons when new ones are found, carefully

    I'd disagree here. There wouldn't be all that many different ammo types
    available in a bunker staffed by a specific nation's or even alliance's
    military during WW2. Or any armed conflict, for that matter - ammunition
    tends to be standardized in the military to just a few types. Most
    probably 1 pistol ammo size, 1 rifle ammo size, and 1 machine gun ammo
    size. With the resources of a government behind you, it shouldn't be too
    difficult to have a weapon of your preferred type modified and
    manufactured to be able to take WW2 size ammo of the relevant type - and
    be superior to any WW2 weapon found.

    > estimate how much of each of the many special ammo types he will need,
    > fill magazines with mixed rounds (special UI), hide caches of stuff
    > here and there (special UI for marking places on the map) and generally
    > care about maximizing the usefulness of carried equipment.
    >
    > I'd recommend a few nicely compatible systems of weapons, ammo and
    > accessories, like medium caliber pistol and SMG (e.g. 9mm), shotgun
    > (e.g. 12 gauge) and rifle (e.g. 7.62 mm) rounds, grenades for grenade
    > launchers, arrows, batteries for energy weapons. For each standard
    > there can be many compatible variants of the basic type: high capacity
    > batteries, poisoned and explosive arrows, and all sorts of firearm
    > cartridges: armour piercing, soft, blank, flechette, explosive,
    > subsonic...
    > Too many ammo standards are a serious problem when encumbrance is
    > limited: lack of ammo makes the corresponding bulky firearms worthless
    > and keeping good ammo without its weapon is also a complete luxury. In
    > a randomly generated world ammo and weapon mismatches are statistically
    > guaranteed, so it's better to mitigate them with compatible but
    > inferior ammo and weapons: a pistol instead of the lost SMG, valuable
    > poisoned arrows against a robot after the regular ones have ended, etc.
    > Gun accessories should be compatible with most or all weapons of the
    > same caliber, even if it's not completely realistic;

    Agreed.

    >they can be a
    > powerful tool in the game and a source of variety and interesting
    > choices for the player (Sights or laser pointer? Suppressor or
    > bayonet?).

    Well, here you're talking artificial restrictions - a laser pointer can,
    with some ingeniuity (or a broght-along extra mount for clamping around
    a barrel for instance) be mounted along with optical sights. Not that
    the laser pointer wouldn't be superior in every single situation in a
    dark underground complex that doesn't have kilometer-long rooms.

    > Useful accessories include suppressors (maybe multiple models with a
    > size/effectiveness tradeoff), laser projectors, sights, bayonets,
    > grenade launchers, extended or lightweight magazines.

    Also flashlight

    >
    > The value proposition of a pistol or SMG should be the small size of
    > weapon and ammo, and maybe the low recoil. Basic types could include a
    > small pistol (rather useless for the better armed hero, but good for
    > equipping monsters and as backup), a short SMG (like the MP5K) and a
    > long and heavier SMG (like the MP5) with slightly better range and
    > accuracy. For variety, there might be single shot pistols (either
    > ornate and precious or accurate and delicate competition models, they
    > shouldn't be worthless), revolvers and variations in accuracy and
    > reliability.

    Good points. If you get to keep your beginning gun, though, I can't see
    any reason to pick up any new ones.

    > Shotguns, as DOOM teached us, should be the best option for close
    > unarmored monsters; models are varied (one or two barrels, long or
    > sawed off, slow or fast reloading, more or less rounds) and military
    > ones could have automatic fire.

    Yes. Also, shotguns are seriously bulky, as is their ammo.

    > Rifles should be good for general use and for sniping from a distance,
    > but they are heavy.

    And next to useless in a dark, underground complex with small rooms and
    corridors

    > There should only be modern assault rifles (of varying quality and
    > accessories); specialty sniper rifles would realistically use
    > incompatible ammo, which is bad, and older types are quite obsolete and
    > not cool.
    > There could also be machine guns using rifle shots; very hard to carry
    > but good for heroic use in open spaces.
    > Representing the extended action of aiming an automatic fire weapon in
    > a turn based game can be an issue.

    I think Silent Storm did it rather well, but then they had long turns
    and "action points", which I don't find very compatible to the roguelike
    genre.

    >
    > The elite soldier discussed in earlier posts should start very well
    > armed with anything the player wants, subject to encumbrance limits and
    > with the exclusion of extremely expensive and experimental stuff (or
    > maybe with a cost limit).

    Why? Your nation is already putting millions on the line (spy sattelite
    time, counter-intelligence operations, security clearing the soldier in
    question, transporting ths soldier in question into the area in question
    [more counter intelligence here], etc..) for this piece of information
    in the bottom of this WW2 bunker - a couple hundred thousand extra for a
    cool gadget or better weapon won't make a dent.

    >
    > Ammo is obviously limited and weapons and accessories can jam or break,

    Yes, a jamming or breaking weapon is a good reason to go hunting for a
    new one. If you don't have the skill and ability to scrounge the
    equipment to fix the weapon you already have.

    > making the character dependent on salvaged enemy equipment.
    > For the "wonder weapons" theme, there should be weapon treasures: a
    > limited amount of exotic and very effective ammo, some strange and
    > specialized weapons and accessories (real examples: guns with a curved
    > barrel for shooting around corners and sealed one-shot pistols for
    > underwater use), maybe incompatible and unrenewable enemy-only weapon
    > systems (caseless prototypes and Soviet rifle calibers come to mind).

    Well, if your nation thinks it likely that the enemy in the bunker uses
    Soviet ammo, they'll roll out a modified weapon of your favourite type
    which can use soviet ammo and send soviet-caliber ammo with you. ;)
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    "Andreas Koch" <nospam@kochandreas.com> wrote in message
    news:dehvfc$f2m$01$1@news.t-online.com...
    [...]
    > Pistol with some clips for larger enemies, with "Schalldämper"
    > (sonic reducer?) of course. Larger weapons are inpratical
    > for small rooms.
    [...]

    The word in English is "silencer", and I agree this is extremely important
    in the given scenario.

    Stealth needs to be a major factor given the description. Using a silencer
    on handguns or melee weaponry is essential. One way to enforce this is to
    have enemies alerted to your precense based on sound. Note that there
    doesn't have to be any actual audio, it could be verbose. It's also
    important for such alerted enemies to be any of the following:

    1) Too many for the player to handle at once (swarm).
    2) Few, but strong mobs that are best dealt with one-on-one (more than 2 at
    once is surely fatal)
    3) Medium-amount and medium-strength mobs that apply group fighting tactics
    when around allied mobs or that just become significantly stronger from
    morale or rage.

    Implementing these sort of mechanics is important to ensure the player
    benefits from being stealthy rather than being a crazy commando.

    --Nolithius
  19. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    gatti@dsdata.it wrote:

    > Elethiomel wrote:
    >> Yes, a jamming or breaking weapon is a good reason to go hunting for a
    >> new one. If you don't have the skill and ability to scrounge the
    >> equipment to fix the weapon you already have.
    >
    > I think the repairs and maintenance a soldier can do in the battlefield
    > with the limited tools and time he has are limited to disassembling and
    > reassembling some parts and cleaning them.
    > Finding and conquering the enemy workshop, getting there when needed,
    > securing it and making complex repairs can be an interesting activity,
    > but in the short term spare weapons are needed and in the longer term
    > some weapons cannot be repaired at all.

    Spare weapons are OK but using any discarded weapon you can find isn't
    something a good soldier would do. A good soldier would only trust his the
    weapons he got himself or from someone he trusts. Using a weapon you find
    somewhere in an abandoned WW2 bunker his liable to get you killed : jamming
    due to bad handling by the previous owner, traped weapon which will explode
    when used/picked up etc... Also, how should jamming be treated ? A random
    break chance ? Jamming as a game feature is far too annoying in itself,
    unless the player made a big mistake : tossing the weapon on the ground,
    using an untrusted weapon, dipping the weapon in dirt/sand, overheating due
    to excessive usage, etc... and in that case it's is damn own fault the
    weapon doesn't work anymore :)

    Also, when carrying weapons, you have to consider where the soldier will
    keep them. You won't be putting an assault rifle or a SMG in a bagpack for
    example. At best, you can expect the soldier to carry one pistol somewhere,
    one SMG and one other bigger weapon on the back. That's extreme case and
    practicaly useless because the SMG and the assaut rifle overlap so much in
    functionality it isn't work the bother. You are limited by the amount of
    weapons you can strap around yourself before you can't move or switch
    weapons anymore :)

    Same for the different gadjets. A grenade in your bagpack is useless because
    you can't get it in time when you need it. You must place them on your belt
    for example.

    >> > making the character dependent on salvaged enemy equipment.
    >> > For the "wonder weapons" theme, there should be weapon treasures: a
    >> > limited amount of exotic and very effective ammo, some strange and
    >> > specialized weapons and accessories (real examples: guns with a curved
    >> > barrel for shooting around corners and sealed one-shot pistols for
    >> > underwater use), maybe incompatible and unrenewable enemy-only weapon
    >> > systems (caseless prototypes and Soviet rifle calibers come to mind).
    >>
    >> Well, if your nation thinks it likely that the enemy in the bunker uses
    >> Soviet ammo, they'll roll out a modified weapon of your favourite type
    >> which can use soviet ammo and send soviet-caliber ammo with you. ;)
    >
    > Don't take the Soviet rifle calibers literally, it was just an example
    > of enemy equipment that is practically equivalent but gratuitously
    > incompatible.
    >
    > On the whole, it seems you prefer a quasi-realistic WW2 setting and
    > technology level while I want to maximize the weird, high tech, and
    > even unrealistic equipment; they are different and only partly
    > overlapping tastes.
    >
    > Lorenzo Gatti

    Considering there is some blueprint of value for modern time military in an
    old WW2 bunker, you might expect to find a few weird and useful hightech
    items in there. Also, if there is some mutants and assorted strange things,
    you might consider that the human survivors would have created a few
    weapons specialy made to fight such mutants before beeing wiped out. Or
    maybe they nearly used up all the ammo and they add to create a few cheap
    weapons like crossbows or homemade grenades.

    Lot's of possibilities here :)
  20. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    At Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:47:50 GMT,
    Nolithius wrote:
    > "Andreas Koch" <nospam@kochandreas.com> wrote in message
    > news:dehvfc$f2m$01$1@news.t-online.com...

    > Implementing these sort of mechanics is important to ensure the player
    > benefits from being stealthy rather than being a crazy commando.

    Seeing how this thread unfolds, I'd like to note that I meant a fictional
    real-life situation rather than game mechanics. :)

    --
    Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
    (TT) 3 Waaah!
    . . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
  21. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    gatti@dsdata.it wrote:
    > Elethiomel wrote:
    > [...]
    >
    >>I'd disagree here. There wouldn't be all that many different ammo types
    >>available in a bunker staffed by a specific nation's or even alliance's
    >>military during WW2. Or any armed conflict, for that matter - ammunition
    >>tends to be standardized in the military to just a few types. Most
    >>probably 1 pistol ammo size, 1 rifle ammo size, and 1 machine gun ammo
    >
    >
    > In fact shotguns should be unavailable if not used by the enemy; a
    > large caliber for machine guns and powerful sniper rifles is the most
    > likely replacement.

    I don't agree here. You're trusted by your government to go get these
    plans - if you say you need a shotgun, you'll get a shotgun. As I said
    earlier, most likely none of the opponents are wearing armour anyway.


    >>size. With the resources of a government behind you, it shouldn't be too
    >>difficult to have a weapon of your preferred type modified and
    >>manufactured to be able to take WW2 size ammo of the relevant type - and
    >>be superior to any WW2 weapon found.
    >
    > I agree that the weapon standards should be those of the enemy
    > (equipping the hero with custom adaptations and possibly museum
    > pieces): allowing the use of found ammo is a sufficient reason.
    > However, if the enemy is compatible enough with the hero's side more
    > toys become available.

    True. =)

    > [...]
    >
    >>>The elite soldier discussed in earlier posts should start very well
    >>>armed with anything the player wants, subject to encumbrance limits and
    >>>with the exclusion of extremely expensive and experimental stuff (or
    >>>maybe with a cost limit).
    >>
    >>Why? Your nation is already putting millions on the line (spy sattelite
    >>time, counter-intelligence operations, security clearing the soldier in
    >>question, transporting ths soldier in question into the area in question
    >>[more counter intelligence here], etc..) for this piece of information
    >>in the bottom of this WW2 bunker - a couple hundred thousand extra for a
    >>cool gadget or better weapon won't make a dent.
    >
    > Many weapons can be so obscure and experimental that they aren't
    > available (at least not in time for the mission) or so illegal or
    > dangerous that the military don't use them.
    > The most outrageous weapons can be unique specimen found in the enemy
    > secret labs.

    Good point. WW2 scientists may have been on to something.

    >
    >>>Ammo is obviously limited and weapons and accessories can jam or break,
    >>
    >>Yes, a jamming or breaking weapon is a good reason to go hunting for a
    >>new one. If you don't have the skill and ability to scrounge the
    >>equipment to fix the weapon you already have.
    >
    > I think the repairs and maintenance a soldier can do in the battlefield
    > with the limited tools and time he has are limited to disassembling and
    > reassembling some parts and cleaning them.

    True. This often fixes a jammed weapon though.

    > Finding and conquering the enemy workshop, getting there when needed,
    > securing it and making complex repairs can be an interesting activity,
    > but in the short term spare weapons are needed and in the longer term
    > some weapons cannot be repaired at all.

    This is true. I'd see it as a last resort though.

    >
    >>>making the character dependent on salvaged enemy equipment.
    >>>For the "wonder weapons" theme, there should be weapon treasures: a
    >>>limited amount of exotic and very effective ammo, some strange and
    >>>specialized weapons and accessories (real examples: guns with a curved
    >>>barrel for shooting around corners and sealed one-shot pistols for
    >>>underwater use), maybe incompatible and unrenewable enemy-only weapon
    >>>systems (caseless prototypes and Soviet rifle calibers come to mind).
    >>
    >>Well, if your nation thinks it likely that the enemy in the bunker uses
    >>Soviet ammo, they'll roll out a modified weapon of your favourite type
    >>which can use soviet ammo and send soviet-caliber ammo with you. ;)
    >
    > Don't take the Soviet rifle calibers literally, it was just an example
    > of enemy equipment that is practically equivalent but gratuitously
    > incompatible.

    Yes, this is true. My point was that you're likely to have weapons
    compatible with whatever ammo it is most likely you will find in the
    complex.

    > On the whole, it seems you prefer a quasi-realistic WW2 setting and
    > technology level while I want to maximize the weird, high tech, and
    > even unrealistic equipment; they are different and only partly
    > overlapping tastes.

    Preference - I don't know. I just assumed that was the setting when I
    read the story of the OP.

    The game I previously mentioned - Silent Storm - has "panzerklein"
    (personal powered armour) and beam weaponry in a WW2 setting. I found it
    tons of fun anyway (though the mission where you have to knock the enemy
    leader [who is in a super-panzerklein] unconscious and run away with him
    without having the building blow up is SUPER HARD because of the
    insanely destructive weaponry being bandied about by that point).
  22. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    "Elethiomel" <kkkk@lllllll.mmmm> wrote in message
    news:430cb5a1@news.broadpark.no...
    [...]
    > All those are good, and probably light weight (except the crowbar).
    [...]

    I'm sure your country could provide you with a titanium alloy crowbar that
    is stronger and lighter than the usual. Aparently they have all these
    advanced sensor technologies at their disposal, so why not? ;)

    --Nolithius
  23. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Elethiomel wrote:
    > gatti@dsdata.it wrote:

    >> The elite soldier discussed in earlier posts should start very well
    >> armed with anything the player wants, subject to encumbrance limits and
    >> with the exclusion of extremely expensive and experimental stuff (or
    >> maybe with a cost limit).
    >
    > Why? Your nation is already putting millions on the line (spy sattelite
    > time, counter-intelligence operations, security clearing the soldier in
    > question, transporting ths soldier in question into the area in question
    > [more counter intelligence here], etc..) for this piece of information
    > in the bottom of this WW2 bunker - a couple hundred thousand extra for a
    > cool gadget or better weapon won't make a dent.

    If the game uses character classes, there could be a class or two where
    cost matters. For example, what about a "batman" type class where you're
    elite-trained self-funded and rich but not major-nation-military rich?
    Another possible class with similar, but different restrictions would be
    "counterspy" (you're from an enemy nation and have mugged the original
    operative on his way in and now have your own even smaller base stock
    plus some encumbrance-limited pickings from his his good, but random
    collection of stuff; you have even tighter security limitations but the
    backup for the original operative is on his way and wants you dead,
    etc.) Or "mad scientist" (severely cost-limited but balanced by, say,
    INT-related advantages elsewhere). Or the classic movie stereotype
    "renegade" (you've defected for your own moral or immoral reasons and
    need the Warb of SSot for your own plans of some sort; you're totally
    kickass but only have what you could sneak out on your departure).

    e.

    --
    "Well, we didn't understand what 'Free Bird' means, anyway. So we played
    Sweet Home Alabama for those silly guys."
    - from autobiography of JA noisecore band Melt Banana
  24. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Quoting Nolithius <Nolithius@hotmail.com>:
    >"Elethiomel" <kkkk@lllllll.mmmm> wrote in message
    >> All those are good, and probably light weight (except the crowbar).
    >I'm sure your country could provide you with a titanium alloy crowbar that
    >is stronger and lighter than the usual.

    Clumsily bulky, then. You can't replace a solid steel part with a
    same-size titanium one.
    --
    David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
    Today is First Thursday, August.
  25. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    > At Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:47:50 GMT,
    > Nolithius wrote:
    >
    >>"Andreas Koch" <nospam@kochandreas.com> wrote in message
    >>news:dehvfc$f2m$01$1@news.t-online.com...
    >
    >
    >>Implementing these sort of mechanics is important to ensure the player
    >>benefits from being stealthy rather than being a crazy commando.
    >
    >
    > Seeing how this thread unfolds, I'd like to note that I meant a fictional
    > real-life situation rather than game mechanics. :)

    Speaking of game mechanics...

    There's been an awful lot of talk about firearms, but none about
    close-combat weaponry. Certainly a complex like this is one of the few
    settings that can realistically (ugh, that word) combine close combat
    and firearms in a roguelike. Due to, say, reasons like *lighting*.
    You've got all sorts of opportunities to "turn out the lights" and force
    the player and the NPCs to deal with that. Darkfighting skill anyone?
    Infrared equipment? Flashlights? Cigarette lighters? Cigarette smoking
    enemies? Cigarette addiction malus for the player a la GURPS? Mechanic
    for turns to adjust to darkness?

    Speaking of time, how about an attempt to make something slightly more
    similar to a realistic timescale (and one displayed in real-world time
    units)? That means nearly no levelling or skill increases, though,
    meaning that equipment would have to carry nearly the whole burden of
    Giving the Player the Cool Feeling They're Getting Buffer and Buffer.

    My hunch of the timescale needed for such an operation would be in the
    range from a day to a week. If it's more than a day, a carefully handled
    (not for realism, but for balance and avoiding annoyance) need-for-sleep
    mechanism could be a plus. Perhaps a sufficient solution would be to
    provide lockable rooms. As long as nobody's on your trail, you're fine.
    Otherwise, better be a light sleeper or hope your pursuers prefer
    hatchets to picklocks...!

    e.

    --
    "Well, we didn't understand what 'Free Bird' means, anyway. So we played
    Sweet Home Alabama for those silly guys."
    - from autobiography of JA noisecore band Melt Banana
  26. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Erik Piper wrote:
    > Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    >
    >> At Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:47:50 GMT,
    >> Nolithius wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Andreas Koch" <nospam@kochandreas.com> wrote in message
    >>> news:dehvfc$f2m$01$1@news.t-online.com...
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> Implementing these sort of mechanics is important to ensure the player
    >>> benefits from being stealthy rather than being a crazy commando.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Seeing how this thread unfolds, I'd like to note that I meant a fictional
    >> real-life situation rather than game mechanics. :)
    >
    >
    > Speaking of game mechanics...
    >
    > There's been an awful lot of talk about firearms, but none about
    > close-combat weaponry. Certainly a complex like this is one of the few
    > settings that can realistically (ugh, that word) combine close combat
    > and firearms in a roguelike. Due to, say, reasons like *lighting*.
    > You've got all sorts of opportunities to "turn out the lights" and force
    > the player and the NPCs to deal with that. Darkfighting skill anyone?
    > Infrared equipment? Flashlights? Cigarette lighters? Cigarette smoking
    > enemies? Cigarette addiction malus for the player a la GURPS? Mechanic
    > for turns to adjust to darkness?
    >
    > Speaking of time, how about an attempt to make something slightly more
    > similar to a realistic timescale (and one displayed in real-world time
    > units)? That means nearly no levelling or skill increases, though,
    > meaning that equipment would have to carry nearly the whole burden of
    > Giving the Player the Cool Feeling They're Getting Buffer and Buffer.
    >
    > My hunch of the timescale needed for such an operation would be in the
    > range from a day to a week. If it's more than a day, a carefully handled
    > (not for realism, but for balance and avoiding annoyance) need-for-sleep
    > mechanism could be a plus. Perhaps a sufficient solution would be to
    > provide lockable rooms. As long as nobody's on your trail, you're fine.
    > Otherwise, better be a light sleeper or hope your pursuers prefer
    > hatchets to picklocks...!

    For inspiration, think Metal Gear Solid. No levelling or skill
    increases, just better equipment. Close range combat, in addition to
    ranged combat. Cigarette smoking (all though it served a different
    purpose), infrared goggles, and other good stuff. Realistic timescale
    (somewhat). Pretty much covers most of what you said. In fact,
    thinking about it a bit more, MGS:RL might not be a bad idea. Hell,
    the storyline discussed so far doesn't even sound *too* far out of
    bounds for a typical Metal Gear romp. I could definitely imagine
    Solid Snake getting sent into a top-secret Nazi installation.
    Granted, the mutant thing is a little bit of a stretch, but not too much.

    Anyways, just a thought.


    --
    My projects are currently on hold, but I do have
    some junk at the site below.

    http://www.freewebs.com/timsrl/index.htm

    --
  27. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Quoting Timothy Pruett <drakalor.tourist@gmail.com>:
    >For inspiration, think Metal Gear Solid. No levelling or skill
    >increases, just better equipment.

    And hitpoint increases every time you clear a section of plot.
    --
    David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
    Today is First Thursday, August.
  28. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Erik Piper wrote:

    [mechanics thoughts for proposed modern roguelike]

    thinking aloud a little more...

    You might also want to answer the age-old question, "how the heck do the
    denizens eat?" especially since unlike the denizens of a fantasy
    dungeon, the base's populace isn't "allowed" to go outside. Some ideas
    for answers:

    a) I don't *care* how they eat! Now get playing already!

    - the simplest answer for getting on with balancing other parts of the
    design.

    b) Their mutations have given them a super-slow metabolism.

    - bizarre and requires a little suspension of disbelief, but allows one
    to get along with things as well. Perhaps the player could receive an
    injection that grants this trait, but in the timescale of the game, it
    might not mean much by the time it becomes available (unless you have a
    "traitor" class where you're a mutant working to steal the plans).

    c) Secret agents working for the base have infiltrated nearby society
    and regularly go on purchase runs.

    - would require a small populace ("a roguelike composed only of boss
    monsters") to be believable.

    d) They can survive on food from inside the cave due to advanced
    hydroponic techniques.

    - bizarre and requires a little suspension of disbelief, but allows one
    to get along with things as well.

    Speaking of food... regarding the *player* and food -- judging from
    probable timescale again, food is unlikely to be a realistic way to push
    the player forward except for some special cases, e.g. backpack falls
    into water... errr, forget I mentioned it. It could be replaced in its
    role by water, especially considering the proposed weight restrictions
    on the player. Food would merely slightly affect the thirst counter and
    otherwise would play no role. If there's a fatigue system, thirst could
    be one of the main factors tying into it (and the sleep system could as
    well, if something like that is implemented).

    Speaking of timers... does this base have an intrusion detection system?
    If it's relatively advanced, how is the PC escaping it? A jammer?
    Provided from home or picked up at the beginning of the visit? Is it
    infinitely effective, or does it have limitations like, say, eroding
    over... time... if you stay in one place too long? (But then how would
    that interact with any eventual sleep system?)

    **********

    Now for some thoughts on skills.

    Ranged combat
    [quite general firearm class 1 ... quite general firearm class n]
    Close combat
    [close combat weapon class 1 ... close combat class n -- probably no
    need to get too general here, unless there will be oodles of CC weapon
    types]
    Darkfighting
    Alertness
    Diplomacy
    Engineering (in the military sense)
    Optional: engineering subskills for bridging, trap setting, etc.
    Climbing
    Swimming
    Stealth
    Stabbing (hey wait a second, this isn't Crawl! *smacks head*)
    Electronics (physical) -- what the repairman does
    Electronics (informatics) -- what many readers of this NG do :-)
    Improvisation (JOAT-capacity)
    MultipleCopiesOfAgentSmithFighting :-)

    e.
  29. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Quoting Erik Piper <erik@sky.cz>:
    >You might also want to answer the age-old question, "how the heck do the
    >denizens eat?" especially since unlike the denizens of a fantasy
    >dungeon, the base's populace isn't "allowed" to go outside. Some ideas
    >for answers:

    Maybe the base is in a geothermally active zone. The humans get power and
    hydroponics from it - the internal ecology starts with bubbling life at
    the bottom (where humans cannot go) and has a pyramid of predators above
    it. But this puts the nastiest critters on the outside. Bother.
    --
    David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
    Today is First Thursday, August.
  30. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
    > Quoting Erik Piper <erik@sky.cz>:
    > >You might also want to answer the age-old question, "how the heck do the
    > >denizens eat?" especially since unlike the denizens of a fantasy
    > >dungeon, the base's populace isn't "allowed" to go outside. Some ideas
    > >for answers:
    >
    > Maybe the base is in a geothermally active zone. The humans get power and
    > hydroponics from it - the internal ecology starts with bubbling life at
    > the bottom (where humans cannot go) and has a pyramid of predators above
    > it. But this puts the nastiest critters on the outside. Bother.

    Is that so much of a problem in this scenario? After all, at the start
    of it you have all of your equipment and weapons and haven't lost them
    to fights, traps, accidents and so on. So at this point you can fight
    all the tough creatures.

    Later on, when you've used up all your ammunition, your armour is
    ripped to shreds, and your knife is getting blunt, you'll be glad that
    the toughest thing you have to fight is a small mild-mannered
    herbivore.

    --
    Chris
  31. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

    Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
    <snip>
    > The sattelite scans confirm the existence of various life forms in the
    > bunkers -- and those are more than just rats and bats. Aside from wild
    > animals, there are some mutants created in the biological labs. There can
    > also be descendants of the guards, living in the facility, not knowing
    > that the war is over.
    >
    > You can assume it's like the first dozen levels of Angband.
    >
    > Now, the question -- what proffession and equipment would you need?
    I vote for MacGyver.

    But since he's too busy fighting ancient egytion deities now, I think I
    would want some one with a good knowledge of German or "Enemy" since
    the lab could have been built and manned by none germans. I would also
    consider outfitting this person in authentic WWII "enemy" uniform+gear
    so that he could possibly encounter the remaining guard decendents and
    pose as an officer returning to rescue the forgotten lab.
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