Ascetic Paladin

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Complete Adventurer has an Ascetic Knight feat which
- allows the PC to freely multiclass between paladin and monk
- counts monk+paladin levels towards unarmed strike and smite evil damage
Sounds straightforward, except I had a hard time picturing the combination --
I usually think of paladin as a heavy-armour fighter, which clashes with the
armourless monk.

The following is one possible 20th level paladin/monk. Does it stack up
reasonably with other 20th level characters (I haven't played at those levels
yet). This is based on the standard array for stats.

Human Monk 10/Paladin 10
Str=12
Int= 8
Wis=16=14+2
Con=10
Dex=14=13+1
Cha=16=15+1
The last point at level 20 doesn't make a direct difference in modifiers; it'd
go somewhere depending on plans for Epic levels, which I'm far from ready to
think about.

Skill points per level: 4 as monk (*4 at first level), 2 as paladin (+1 human
cancels -1 int)
Diplomacy +25 = 23 ranks +2 synergy (Sense Motive)
Sense Motive 23 ranks
Spot 13 ranks
Tumble 13 ranks

BAB +17/+12/+7/+2 Flurry +17/+17/+12/+7/+2 unarmed damage 2D10
AC (unequipped) 17 = 10 +2(dex) +3(monk Wis bonus) +2(monk level)
Speed 60
Fort +17=+7(monk)+7(paladin)+3(divine grace)
Ref +13=+7+3+3
Will +13=+7+3+3 (+2 still mind vs enchantment)(immune to fear)

Stunning fist, combat reflexes, improved evasion, still mind, ki strike
(magic, lawful), slow fall 50 feet, purity of body, improved disarm, wholeness
of body (heal self 20hp/day), aura of good (level 10), detect evil, smite evil
3/day +3hit/+20dmg, divine grace, lay on hands 30 hp/day, aura of courage,
divine health, Turn undead 6/day as cleric 7, special mount, remove disease
2/wk.

Equipment value 760,000:
I'd appreciate advice here. I imagine high priority would be AC/Dex boosters,
and possibly a Str booster for extra damage.
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David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote:
>Complete Adventurer has an Ascetic Knight feat which
>- allows the PC to freely multiclass between paladin and monk
>- counts monk+paladin levels towards unarmed strike and smite evil damage
>Sounds straightforward, except I had a hard time picturing the combination --
>I usually think of paladin as a heavy-armour fighter, which clashes with the
>armourless monk.

You might try not making the levels even. I would suggest Monk 11
/ Paladin 9 to start with (for the extra flurry attack), and then
think about Monk 4 / Paladin 16....

Overall, the classes don't seem to coordinate well. They focus on
different stats (Charisma vs Wisdom, even though the Paladin also
needs some Wisdom). IMO, the feat is more interesting than useful.

Donald
 
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David Alex Lamb wrote:
> Complete Adventurer has an Ascetic Knight feat which
> - allows the PC to freely multiclass between paladin and monk
> - counts monk+paladin levels towards unarmed strike and smite evil
damage
> Sounds straightforward, except I had a hard time picturing the
combination --
> I usually think of paladin as a heavy-armour fighter, which clashes
with the
> armourless monk.

That's a problem with your perception of a paladin, then. If you only
view a paladin as a heavily armed fighter, then it's not for you. If a
paladin is, instead, a holy warrior, then it works.
 
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dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb) wrote in
news:cvlq9t$9ul$1@knot.queensu.ca:


> Equipment value 760,000:
> I'd appreciate advice here. I imagine high priority would be AC/Dex
> boosters, and possibly a Str booster for extra damage.

Blindfold of True Darkness (9,000gp, A&E)
Amulet of Mighty Fist (DMG)
Headband of Perfect Excellence (200,000gp +6 to abilities, Miniatures
Handbook)
Bracers of Armour (DMG, and check out the side bar in A&E about bracers) or
Bracers of Blinding Strike (MoF)
Ring of Defence (IIRC DrgM 292, I will get back to you on monday withthe
issue)

or
Give up the money and take Vow of Poverty, oh the exalted feats you could
take being a Monk Paladin multi-class.
 
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David Alex Lamb wrote:

> At least give me credit for trying, with the character combination I
posted.

Credit granted.

To be honest, I removed the LG from paladin entirely and just made them
a holy warrior that works foor any faith, IMC. It helped remove a lot
of that preconceived notions for me.
 
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Anivair wrote:

> David Alex Lamb wrote:
>
>>Complete Adventurer has an Ascetic Knight feat which
>>- allows the PC to freely multiclass between paladin and monk
>>- counts monk+paladin levels towards unarmed strike and smite evil
>
> damage
>
>>Sounds straightforward, except I had a hard time picturing the
>
> combination --
>
>>I usually think of paladin as a heavy-armour fighter, which clashes
>
> with the
>
>>armourless monk.
>
>
> That's a problem with your perception of a paladin, then. If you only
> view a paladin as a heavily armed fighter, then it's not for you. If a
> paladin is, instead, a holy warrior, then it works.

A suppose a Paladin *could* be a knight without armor in a savage land...

- Ron ^*^
 
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In article <Xns96088D610658BHereIAmNoWherecom@216.196.97.142>,
freakybaby <Here-I-Am@No-Where.com> wrote:
>dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb) wrote in
>news:cvlq9t$9ul$1@knot.queensu.ca:
>> Equipment value 760,000:
>> I'd appreciate advice here. I imagine high priority would be AC/Dex
>> boosters, and possibly a Str booster for extra damage.
>Blindfold of True Darkness (9,000gp, A&E)
>Amulet of Mighty Fist (DMG)
>Headband of Perfect Excellence (200,000gp +6 to abilities, Miniatures
>Handbook)

Does that really mean +6 to ALL abilities? Wow! (don't have Miniatures
handbook)

>Bracers of Armour (DMG, and check out the side bar in A&E about bracers) or
>Bracers of Blinding Strike (MoF)

I don't have MoF if it means Msomething of Faerun. What does it do?

>Ring of Defence (IIRC DrgM 292, I will get back to you on monday withthe
>issue)

>Give up the money and take Vow of Poverty, oh the exalted feats you could
>take being a Monk Paladin multi-class.

I was thinking to try a highly exalted version later.

Thanks for all the suggestions.
--
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David Alex Lamb wrote:
> freakybaby wrote:
> >
> > Bracers of Blinding Strike (MoF)
>
> I don't have MoF if it means Msomething of Faerun.

M-broken-magic of Faerun. :D

> What does it do?

102,000 gp: bracers of armor +6 that also grant Improved Initiative
and an extra attack every round at highest BAB, as if using a speed
weapon.

Someone with the Player's Guide to Faerun should see if it was
3.5-revised therein.

--
Nik
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In article <1109351272.844493.46620@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Anivair <anivair@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>David Alex Lamb wrote:
>> Complete Adventurer has an Ascetic Knight feat which
>> - allows the PC to freely multiclass between paladin and monk
>> - counts monk+paladin levels towards unarmed strike and smite evil
>damage
>> Sounds straightforward, except I had a hard time picturing the
>combination --
>> I usually think of paladin as a heavy-armour fighter, which clashes
>with the
>> armourless monk.
>
>That's a problem with your perception of a paladin, then. If you only
>view a paladin as a heavily armed fighter, then it's not for you. If a
>paladin is, instead, a holy warrior, then it works.

At least give me credit for trying, with the character combination I posted.
--
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On 25 Feb 2005 00:08:29 GMT, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb)
wrote:

>Complete Adventurer has an Ascetic Knight feat which
>- allows the PC to freely multiclass between paladin and monk
>- counts monk+paladin levels towards unarmed strike and smite evil damage
>Sounds straightforward, except I had a hard time picturing the combination --
>I usually think of paladin as a heavy-armour fighter, which clashes with the
>armourless monk.

Yu Shu Lien from CTHD, or Wong Fei Hung, or Cho from Bride With White Hair
--> monk/paladin!


--
Hong Ooi | "COUNTERSRTIKE IS AN REAL-TIME
hong@zipworld.com.au | STRATEGY GAME!!!"
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | -- RR
Sydney, Australia |
 
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In article <1tqt11hfbq3crkdk8ie0pva7so0hcjqem4@4ax.com>,
Hong Ooi <hong@zipworld.com.au> wrote:
>Yu Shu Lien from CTHD, or Wong Fei Hung, or Cho from Bride With White Hair
>--> monk/paladin!

I haven't seen most of those; deficient movie education I guess. I saw CTHD
but can't remember who was Yu Shu Lien.
--
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In article <cvlq9t$9ul$1@knot.queensu.ca>,
David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote:
>Complete Adventurer has an Ascetic Knight feat which
>Human Monk 10/Paladin 10
>Str=12 Int= 8 Wis=16=14+2 Con=10 Dex=14=13+1 Cha=16=15+1

Duh, forgot the ability modifiers:

>Diplomacy +28 = 23 ranks +2 synergy (Sense Motive) +3 (Cha)
>Sense Motive 26 = 23 ranks + 3 (Wis)
>Spot 16 = 13 ranks +3 (Wis)
>Tumble 15 = 13 ranks +2 (Dex)
>
>Fort +17=+7(monk)+7(paladin)+3(divine grace)
>Ref +15=+7+3+3 + 2 (Dex)
>Will +16=+7+3+3 +3 (Wis) (+2 still mind vs enchantment)(immune to fear)
--
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On 25 Feb 2005 20:44:01 GMT, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb)
wrote:

>>Headband of Perfect Excellence (200,000gp +6 to abilities, Miniatures
>>Handbook)
>Does that really mean +6 to ALL abilities? Wow! (don't have Miniatures
>handbook)

No. And it's not in the Miniatures Handbook, it's in Sword and Fist.

Headband of Perfect Excellence: This pure silk cloth is worn as a headband.
It grants the wearer a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and
Wisdom.
Caster Level: 18th.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace and
either Commune or Legend Lore
[Remember, this ia 3E item - Owl's Wisdom can probably be substituted
here.]
Market Price: 180,000gp


In 3.5, the price of this item would fall under the "Multiple Different
Abilities" clause on page 282 of the 3.5e DMG. The cost would be:

36,000gp (+6 Strength bonus) +
54,000gp (+6 Dexterity bonus) +
54,000gp (+6 Wisdom bonus)
---------
144,000gp

You COULD up all six attributes for the measly cost of 306,000gp, though.
Other variations would be, for +2 to all attributes, 34,000gp, and +4 to
all attributes, 136,000gp.

Actually, the way it reads, it could be an escalating value. You'd have to
ask your DM. If THAT were the case, it would be:

36,000gp (+6 Strength bonus) +
54,000gp (+6 Dexterity bonus) +
81,000gp (+6 Wisdom bonus)
---------
171,000gp

Which is a lot closer to the 180,000 they're charging for the headband
above. If this is the case, the prices would be 83,125gp to bring up all
six attributes by +2, 332,500gp to bring them all up by +4, and a whopping
748,125gp to bring them all up by +6. As a DM, I think I would probably go
by this latter choice. Otherwise, getting all six stats boosted by +6 is a
no-brainer for pretty much every high-level character. Especially since,
as it is, you *can't* bring up all of your stats.


Joel
 
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In article <kbav11tnsgg8c2re55pi5dj0t7kl6j2un7@4ax.com>,
Nikolas Landauer <dacileva.flea@hotmail.com.tick> wrote:
>David Alex Lamb wrote:
>> freakybaby wrote:
>> > Bracers of Blinding Strike (MoF)
>> What does it do?
>
>102,000 gp: bracers of armor +6 that also grant Improved Initiative
>and an extra attack every round at highest BAB, as if using a speed
>weapon.

Cool. Does it stack with Flurry of Blows? I'd guess yes.
--
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David Alex Lamb wrote:
> In article <1tqt11hfbq3crkdk8ie0pva7so0hcjqem4@4ax.com>,
> Hong Ooi <hong@zipworld.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Yu Shu Lien from CTHD, or Wong Fei Hung, or Cho from Bride With White Hair
>>--> monk/paladin!
>
>
> I haven't seen most of those; deficient movie education I guess. I saw CTHD
> but can't remember who was Yu Shu Lien.

Okay, Yu Shu Lien was, IIRC, Michelle Yeoh's character. Wong Fei Hung is
a chinese folk hero, recently portrayed (sp?) by Jet Li in the first 3
films in the "Once Upon A Time In China" series. I haven't seen Bride
with White Hair yet.
 
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"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
news:cvo2mh$p2q$1@knot.queensu.ca...
> freakybaby <Here-I-Am@No-Where.com> wrote:

>>Headband of Perfect Excellence (200,000gp +6 to abilities, Miniatures
>>Handbook)
>
> Does that really mean +6 to ALL abilities? Wow! (don't have Miniatures
> handbook)

Yes, and the cost is completely broken.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
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"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
news:cvofif$f7t$1@knot.queensu.ca...
> In article <kbav11tnsgg8c2re55pi5dj0t7kl6j2un7@4ax.com>,
> Nikolas Landauer <dacileva.flea@hotmail.com.tick> wrote:
>>David Alex Lamb wrote:
>>> freakybaby wrote:
>>> > Bracers of Blinding Strike (MoF)
>>> What does it do?
>>
>>102,000 gp: bracers of armor +6 that also grant Improved Initiative
>>and an extra attack every round at highest BAB, as if using a speed
>>weapon.
>
> Cool. Does it stack with Flurry of Blows? I'd guess yes.

Yes, but not with haste. To be honest, I do not think the cost is broken on
that one. It breaks it down to 36K for the bracers of armor, plus 64K for
the Speed weapon enhancement (it is a +4 enhancement, so 4 x 4 x 2K = 32K,
doubled to 64K for adding it on), plus 2K for the Improved Initiative.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
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In news:cvlq9t$9ul$1@knot.queensu.ca,
David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> typed:
> Human Monk 10/Paladin 10

Monk 11: Greater Flurry (additional attack)
Monk 12: Abundant step (Dimension door)
Monk 13: Diamond soul (SR 10+monk level...)

Think about those, personally I like the SR and Greater flurry is kind of a
no brainer in a monk build. You'd lose 2nd level paladin spells and one
Smite and Cure disease use.

--
T. Koivula
 
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In article <cvpsh8$c37$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>,
T. Koivula <plistat@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In news:cvlq9t$9ul$1@knot.queensu.ca,
>David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> typed:
>> Human Monk 10/Paladin 10
>
>Monk 11: Greater Flurry (additional attack)
>Monk 12: Abundant step (Dimension door)
>Monk 13: Diamond soul (SR 10+monk level...)
>
>Think about those, personally I like the SR and Greater flurry is kind of a
>no brainer in a monk build. You'd lose 2nd level paladin spells and one
>Smite and Cure disease use.

After someone suggested Monk 11/Pal 9 I looked at Greater Flurry and decided
that was definitely worth it. Abundant Step is tempting, and Diamond Soul
very tempting. As you said, it takes some thought. Another issue is BAB;
there is no loss going from 10/10 to 12/8, but 13/7 loses 1. Also 12th gets
2d6 damage instead of 1D10, which is also nice.

The trouble with picking a Monk/Paladin tradeoff is that a monk gets tempting
benefits at most levels, while the Paladin gets several levels with very
little going on.
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In article <cvlq9t$9ul$1@knot.queensu.ca>,
David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote:
>Complete Adventurer has an Ascetic Knight feat which
>- allows the PC to freely multiclass between paladin and monk

If the split contains at least 5 Paladin levels, which mine very likely will,
the monk/paladin would get a special mount. It seems to me that at 20th
level, with at most 10 levels of Paladin with which to beef it up (and likely
only 8, given the 12/8 split someone suggested), the mount is very weak in any
encounters the character is likely to have. Am I wrong?

If it can't serve as a second attacker, about all I can see the character
could do is (a) ride it for at most 2*Pal hours per day, (b) use its
vanishment back to the celestial realms as a good way to store valuables.

I think I must be just unimaginative here. Any other suggestions for how to
use it best?
--
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In article <Xns96088D610658BHereIAmNoWherecom@216.196.97.142>,
freakybaby <Here-I-Am@No-Where.com> wrote:
>Ring of Defence (IIRC DrgM 292, I will get back to you on monday withthe
>issue)

It turns out I have a 3 year gap in my Dragons, which 292 is in the middle
of. So I'd appreciate a summary if possible.
--
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In news:cvqe5g$2ui$1@knot.queensu.ca,
David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> typed:
> In article <cvpsh8$c37$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>,
> T. Koivula <plistat@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Monk 11: Greater Flurry (additional attack)
>> Monk 12: Abundant step (Dimension door)
>> Monk 13: Diamond soul (SR 10+monk level...)
> After someone suggested Monk 11/Pal 9 I looked at Greater Flurry and
> decided that was definitely worth it. Abundant Step is tempting, and
> Diamond Soul very tempting. As you said, it takes some thought.
> Another issue is BAB; there is no loss going from 10/10 to 12/8, but
> 13/7 loses 1. Also 12th gets 2d6 damage instead of 1D10, which is
> also nice.


Monk 12 also gives you speed upgrade (+30ft->+40ft) and slow fall increase
50ft->60ft. Monk13/Paladin7 has BAB +16, no? That's enough for max iterative
attacks. IMO SR 23 is worth -1 to BAB.

With Monk it's probably best to either use Fighter 4 for the feats and +16
BAB or be very strict in what you want and don't want from the Monk
levels... Like you said, just about all of them give goodies.

Your holy monk is a nice concept BTW. :)

--
T. Koivula
 
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In article <cvqhdg$lvu$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>,
T. Koivula <plistat@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Your holy monk is a nice concept BTW. :)

Thanks. Most of it seems straigtforward once you read the Ascetic Knight
feat.
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"T. Koivula" <plistat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cvqhdg$lvu$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> In news:cvqe5g$2ui$1@knot.queensu.ca,
>
> Monk 12 also gives you speed upgrade (+30ft->+40ft) and slow fall increase
> 50ft->60ft. Monk13/Paladin7 has BAB +16, no? That's enough for max
iterative
> attacks. IMO SR 23 is worth -1 to BAB.
>

Is SR 23 worth anything to a 20th level character? Especially one with saves
like a M/P is going to have?
 
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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> Joel Fischoff (Agent) wrote:
> >
> > Especially since, as it is, you *can't* bring up all of
> > your stats.
>
> Why is that, pray tell?

I believe he is referring to the fact that the Amulet of Health and
the Periapt of Wisdom take up the same slot.

--
Nik
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