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Attack effects

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Anonymous
September 8, 2005 7:01:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Yet another good topic for a Wiki -- I'll start it here, lets
discuss things a little and then maybe we can move it to the wiki.

The content of your game is very important once you overcome the
minor technical problems of writing the engine. ;) 
I'd say that a lerge number of interesting and distinct monster
kinds makes for a very large part of a good roguelike game.
And one of the most obvious things that differs the monsters are
their special attacks and their effects.

So I want to try to compile a list monster attacks, both well
known and used in roguelike games, and those less known, but
at least sounding interesting.

The list is not supposed to be a list of all attack effects
possible in a roguelike, nor a list of attack effects that
every roguelike should have. It's supposed to serve as an inspiration
for your own ideas.

The order is chaotic.

* Hit -- Just your standard 'substract an amount of hp' attack.
* Wound -- Create a wound with long-term effect, ie. bleeding.
* Push back -- The pc is pushed back by the force of attack.
* Grab -- The pc can't move away from the monster.
* Paralyze -- The pc can't do anything for several turns.
* Sleep -- Like Paralyze, but it ends when pc is attacked.
* Teleport -- The pc is teleported into random place.
* Electric shock -- The attack ignores any metal armor.
* Corrode -- Attack can damage metal armor.
* Acid attack -- Attack can damage any armor.
* Torch -- The pc is set on fire.
* Fire attack -- Can damage scrolls/books/potions.
* Fear -- The pc becomes afraid.
* Confuse -- The pc moves around randomly.
* Blind -- The pc becomes blind for some turns.
* Steal -- The monsters takes an item from pc's inventory.
* Pickpocket -- The monsters takes some gold from pc's inventory.
* Curse -- One piece of pc's equipment becomes sticky-cursed.
* Disarm -- Makes pc drop his weapon.
* Drain stat -- Lowers one of pc's statistics.
* Drain level -- Lowers pc's experience.
* Silence -- The pc can't cast any spells for a number of turns.
* Dispel -- Removes any magical effects from pc.
* Energize -- Restores pc's mana.
* Heal -- Restores pc's hp.
* Trap -- Creates a trap.
* Clone -- Creates a copy of the monster.
* Mimic -- Makes the monster look/behave/have stats like the pc.
* Amnesia -- Causes amnesia.
* Steal spell -- Makes the pc forget one spell and gives it to the
monster.
* Summon -- Summons monsters.
* Krezus curse -- Turns an item into gold.
* Basilisk stare -- Turns an item/pc into rock.
* Shoot -- Standard ranged attack.
* Poison -- The health of pc decrease for some time.
* Destroy wall -- The monster tunnels into the wall.
* Polymorph -- Targeted at other mosnters, changes their kind.
* Rise dead -- Creates zombies from monster corpses.
* Make hungry -- Makes the pc hungrier.
* Drain magic -- Decreases magical pluses, turns scrolls into empty
scrolls, potions into potions of water.
* Drain power -- Decreases pc's mana.
* Switch places -- Switches places of pc and monster.
* Teleport from -- Monster teleports away from the pc.
* Teleport to -- Monster teleports to a sqare next to the pc.
* Darkness -- Makes the squares around pc dark.
* Light -- Makes the squares around pc lit.
* Earthquake -- Damages all creatures around.
* Hunt -- The monster can attack another monster of specific kind and
heal by killing it.
* Drain health -- The monster heals by attacking.
* Aggravate -- Makes all the monsters around come here.
* Stun -- Makes the pc unable to fight for the next turn.
* Tumble down -- Makes the pc unable to walk for the next turn.
* Idle -- No attack at all.
* Suicide -- Kills the monster.
* Seduce -- Makes the pc take off his armor.
* Charm -- Makes the pc unable to attack the monster.

Please add your entries and comment on the ones already added.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(Qq) 3 Sob?
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .

More about : attack effects

Anonymous
September 8, 2005 7:01:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
> Yet another good topic for a Wiki -- I'll start it here, lets
> discuss things a little and then maybe we can move it to the wiki.
>
> * Teleport from -- Monster teleports away from the pc.
> * Teleport to -- Monster teleports to a sqare next to the pc.

* Teleport to self -- The PC is teleported to a square beside the
monster.

I think Everquest uses this for some highlevel mobs to allow the mob to
kill off casters with a powerful melee attack.

I'm planning on doing one in conjunction with Aggravate (which would
make you visible from anywhere on the map) to allow boss monsters to
drag you back when you try to run away.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://ww.zincland.com/powder)
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 7:01:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
[...]
> > * Disease : acts like a slow poison which can be passed on to other
> > creatures by proximity. More dangerous diseases will never cure by
> > themselves and will kill the player after some time.
>
> This one's a little fuzzy.

I think it's a great idea if you balance it well. It worked in dungeon
keeper very nicely. Spread the sickness in a dungeon and come back
later to see everyone dead.

>
> Great ideas everyone! More?

Talking about dungeon keeper, the monsters had some nice attacks:

Fart bomb - damages all creatures nearby every turn, for several turns.

Breathe fire - damages monsters, say on 3 squares in a given direction.

Turn a monster into a chicken (or something else) - the monster keeps
his HP, but can't attack.

Wind - creates some kind of tornado that takes monsters and objects
with it in some direction

Double trouble (well, that's from nethack) - a monster can clone
itself,
but not infinetely, just 2 clones at most.
Related resources
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 8:24:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@ sheep.prv.pl> writes:
> The list is not supposed to be a list of all attack effects
> possible in a roguelike, nor a list of attack effects that
> every roguelike should have. It's supposed to serve as an inspiration
> for your own ideas.

Nice list :) 

> * Drain stat -- Lowers one of pc's statistics.

Maybe a distinction between temporary lowering (-50% speed for the
next 20 turns) and permanent lowering?

> Please add your entries and comment on the ones already added.

Ones I've seen or used at times other than those already listed:

* Armour-penetrating: Like a normal attack, but bypasses
(non-magical?) armour.

* Madness: Scares the target and drives it insane. Not necessarily the
same as 'drain stat'. One creature of mine gave the character a
special form of insanity that as well as reducing their permanent
balance (mental HP, if you like) also made them perceive the world
slightly differently.

* Convince: Convinces the PC/other creature to help this
creature. Generally this attack was used _by_ the PC, but I put a
creature in that used it for one quest.

* Disease: Prevents health regeneration, possibly other effects too.

* Slay foo: Attack does more damage against a particular sort of opponent.

* Vampirism: Transfer HP/MP/stat from target to attacker

* Kill: Instantly kill the target unless special conditions are
met. (e.g. Adom's banshee) Use with extreme caution...

--
Chris
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 10:09:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski a écrit :
> Yet another good topic for a Wiki -- I'll start it here, lets
> discuss things a little and then maybe we can move it to the wiki.
>
> The content of your game is very important once you overcome the
> minor technical problems of writing the engine. ;) 
> I'd say that a lerge number of interesting and distinct monster
> kinds makes for a very large part of a good roguelike game.
> And one of the most obvious things that differs the monsters are
> their special attacks and their effects.
>
> So I want to try to compile a list monster attacks, both well
> known and used in roguelike games, and those less known, but
> at least sounding interesting.
>
> The list is not supposed to be a list of all attack effects
> possible in a roguelike, nor a list of attack effects that
> every roguelike should have. It's supposed to serve as an inspiration
> for your own ideas.
>
> The order is chaotic.
>
> * Hit -- Just your standard 'substract an amount of hp' attack.
> * Wound -- Create a wound with long-term effect, ie. bleeding.
> * Push back -- The pc is pushed back by the force of attack.
> * Grab -- The pc can't move away from the monster.
> * Paralyze -- The pc can't do anything for several turns.
> * Sleep -- Like Paralyze, but it ends when pc is attacked.
> * Teleport -- The pc is teleported into random place.
> * Electric shock -- The attack ignores any metal armor.
> * Corrode -- Attack can damage metal armor.
> * Acid attack -- Attack can damage any armor.
> * Torch -- The pc is set on fire.
> * Fire attack -- Can damage scrolls/books/potions.
> * Fear -- The pc becomes afraid.
> * Confuse -- The pc moves around randomly.
> * Blind -- The pc becomes blind for some turns.
> * Steal -- The monsters takes an item from pc's inventory.
> * Pickpocket -- The monsters takes some gold from pc's inventory.
> * Curse -- One piece of pc's equipment becomes sticky-cursed.
> * Disarm -- Makes pc drop his weapon.
> * Drain stat -- Lowers one of pc's statistics.
> * Drain level -- Lowers pc's experience.
> * Silence -- The pc can't cast any spells for a number of turns.
> * Dispel -- Removes any magical effects from pc.
> * Energize -- Restores pc's mana.
> * Heal -- Restores pc's hp.
> * Trap -- Creates a trap.
> * Clone -- Creates a copy of the monster.
> * Mimic -- Makes the monster look/behave/have stats like the pc.
> * Amnesia -- Causes amnesia.
> * Steal spell -- Makes the pc forget one spell and gives it to the
> monster.
> * Summon -- Summons monsters.
> * Krezus curse -- Turns an item into gold.
> * Basilisk stare -- Turns an item/pc into rock.
> * Shoot -- Standard ranged attack.
> * Poison -- The health of pc decrease for some time.

Poison can be used to drain anything for a short duration, not only
health. You could get a strength poison or a mana poison. Spiders would
use a strength draining poison for example.

> * Destroy wall -- The monster tunnels into the wall.
> * Polymorph -- Targeted at other mosnters, changes their kind.
> * Rise dead -- Creates zombies from monster corpses.
> * Make hungry -- Makes the pc hungrier.
> * Drain magic -- Decreases magical pluses, turns scrolls into empty
> scrolls, potions into potions of water.
> * Drain power -- Decreases pc's mana.
> * Switch places -- Switches places of pc and monster.
> * Teleport from -- Monster teleports away from the pc.
> * Teleport to -- Monster teleports to a sqare next to the pc.
> * Darkness -- Makes the squares around pc dark.
> * Light -- Makes the squares around pc lit.
> * Earthquake -- Damages all creatures around.
> * Hunt -- The monster can attack another monster of specific kind and
> heal by killing it.
> * Drain health -- The monster heals by attacking.
> * Aggravate -- Makes all the monsters around come here.
> * Stun -- Makes the pc unable to fight for the next turn.
> * Tumble down -- Makes the pc unable to walk for the next turn.
> * Idle -- No attack at all.
> * Suicide -- Kills the monster.
> * Seduce -- Makes the pc take off his armor.
> * Charm -- Makes the pc unable to attack the monster.
>
> Please add your entries and comment on the ones already added.
>

Here are a few more effect :
* Slow : the player isn't paralized but acts slower
* Disease : acts like a slow poison which can be passed on to other
creatures by proximity. More dangerous diseases will never cure by
themselves and will kill the player after some time.
* good music : increases the stats of all nearby friendly monsters
* bad music : damages and stuns the target. See sound attack :) 
* Curse : inflicts the player with various curses. A curse here is
something you would find in Diablo or Guild Wars and has negative
effects but only lasts a short time
* Time warp : time clocks back at the point where the player entered the
level
* Phase out : target disapears completly for a short time. No other
adverse effects.
* Throw buddy : monster takes a smaller buddy and throws it at target.
Both projectile and target takes damage
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 10:09:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At Thu, 08 Sep 2005 18:09:08 +0200,
Christophe wrote:

> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski a écrit :
>> * Poison -- The health of pc decrease for some time.
> Poison can be used to drain anything for a short duration, not only
> health. You could get a strength poison or a mana poison. Spiders would
> use a strength draining poison for example.

That goes to the 'Drain stat', which, as somebody noted, should be divided
into temporary and permanent.

Sorry for the attack names -- they are sort of arbitrary, meant to serve
as a reference rather than the one and only effect name.

> Here are a few more effect :
> * Slow : the player isn't paralized but acts slower

> * Disease : acts like a slow poison which can be passed on to other
> creatures by proximity. More dangerous diseases will never cure by
> themselves and will kill the player after some time.

This one's a little fuzzy.

> * good music : increases the stats of all nearby friendly monsters
> * bad music : damages and stuns the target. See sound attack :) 

> * Curse : inflicts the player with various curses. A curse here is
> something you would find in Diablo or Guild Wars and has negative
> effects but only lasts a short time

That would be probably the 'Wound' attack...

> * Time warp : time clocks back at the point where the player entered the
> level
> * Phase out : target disapears completly for a short time. No other
> adverse effects.
> * Throw buddy : monster takes a smaller buddy and throws it at target.
> Both projectile and target takes damage

Great ideas everyone! More?

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(==) 3 Yawn?
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 11:31:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@ sheep.prv.pl> writes:
> Great ideas everyone! More?

Web - slows, entangles, etc. but can also be applied to a square
instead of a creature as a sort of trap.

Aging - ghosts in Adom, for example

Fly/levitate - avoid terrain, or get out of reach of PC

Hide - become difficult to see unless really close (chameleons?)

Invisible - become impossible to see without special powers

Divide - split into two (distinct from summon/clone in that each
half has half the power of the original)

Merge - undoes Divide (for an interesting twist on blobs)

Water attack - since every other element is listed (damages paper,
possibly food, possibly clothes, unless they're stored in something
waterproof)

Eat - swallow a smaller creature whole

Focus - join mana with nearby similar creatures to jointly cast a more
powerful spell than they could each cast individually.

Animate - raise weapons, armour, rocks, etc. to fight the
target. Possibly their weapon, possibly whatever was lying around.

Whirlwind - pick up items from the floor and move them around
randomly, possibly hitting creatures in the way

Corrupt - corrupts or mutates the target while not going so far as to
polymorph it.

Alter ground - turns grass to rock, or poisoned river to clean river,
or whatever. Superset of 'Destroy wall', I suppose.

--
Chris
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 11:31:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At 08 Sep 2005 19:31:58 +0100,
Chris Morris wrote:

> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@ sheep.prv.pl> writes:
>> Great ideas everyone! More?

> Web - slows, entangles, etc. but can also be applied to a square
> instead of a creature as a sort of trap.
> Fly/levitate - avoid terrain, or get out of reach of PC
> Hide - become difficult to see unless really close (chameleons?)
> Invisible - become impossible to see without special powers

These are not really attacks, even if you broaden the term.
I'm planning to put them in a separate article, 'monster behaviours'.

> Eat - swallow a smaller creature whole
How is it different from 'Kill'?

> Aging - ghosts in Adom, for example
> Corrupt - corrupts or mutates the target while not going so far as to
> polymorph it.

These two are pretty fuzzy -- I mean there's no single good effect of
aging or corruption. Maybe you could be a little more specific as to
the effects?

> Divide - split into two (distinct from summon/clone in that each
> half has half the power of the original)
> Merge - undoes Divide (for an interesting twist on blobs)
> Water attack - since every other element is listed (damages paper,
> possibly food, possibly clothes, unless they're stored in something
> waterproof)
> Focus - join mana with nearby similar creatures to jointly cast a more
> powerful spell than they could each cast individually.
> Animate - raise weapons, armour, rocks, etc. to fight the
> target. Possibly their weapon, possibly whatever was lying around.
> Whirlwind - pick up items from the floor and move them around
> randomly, possibly hitting creatures in the way
> Alter ground - turns grass to rock, or poisoned river to clean river,
> or whatever. Superset of 'Destroy wall', I suppose.

Excelent ideas, thanks.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(..) 3 Bee!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:30:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At Thu, 08 Sep 2005 20:26:05 -0000,
Andrew Patrick Schoonmaker wrote:

> In article <dfq49f$q50$2@news.Stanford.EDU>,
> Shedletsky <mylastname@stanford.edu> wrote:
>>This is a great discussion. Here's what I cooked up just now (or stole from
>>obscure places).
> Since when is the Final Fantasy series considered "obscure"?

His talking about "obscure places" -- you don't know where he keeps
his copy ;) 


--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(..) 3 Bee!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:56:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:

> At 08 Sep 2005 19:31:58 +0100,
> Chris Morris wrote:
>
>> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@ sheep.prv.pl> writes:
>>> Great ideas everyone! More?
>
>> Web - slows, entangles, etc. but can also be applied to a square
>> instead of a creature as a sort of trap.
>> Fly/levitate - avoid terrain, or get out of reach of PC
>> Hide - become difficult to see unless really close (chameleons?)
>> Invisible - become impossible to see without special powers
>
> These are not really attacks, even if you broaden the term.
> I'm planning to put them in a separate article, 'monster behaviours'.

And what about monster passive counter effets. Effects which are triggered
by specific attacker actions ? Like using fire against a fire elemental
gives him the effect of a healing+blessing spell.

>> Merge - undoes Divide (for an interesting twist on blobs)

Or you could have small creatures in the first place who can merge to create
bigger ones later.
Say, 3 small blobs => 1 big blob, much more dangerous :)  There where some
critters like that in Phantasy Star 4
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:56:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At Thu, 08 Sep 2005 20:56:08 +0200,
Christophe Cavalaria wrote:

> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
>> At 08 Sep 2005 19:31:58 +0100,
>> Chris Morris wrote:
>>> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@ sheep.prv.pl> writes:
>>>> Great ideas everyone! More?
>>
>>> Web - slows, entangles, etc. but can also be applied to a square
>>> instead of a creature as a sort of trap.
>>> Fly/levitate - avoid terrain, or get out of reach of PC
>>> Hide - become difficult to see unless really close (chameleons?)
>>> Invisible - become impossible to see without special powers
>> These are not really attacks, even if you broaden the term.
>> I'm planning to put them in a separate article, 'monster behaviours'.
> And what about monster passive counter effets. Effects which are triggered
> by specific attacker actions ? Like using fire against a fire elemental
> gives him the effect of a healing+blessing spell.

They will also go to the behaviors, along with all kinds of movement,
attack-choosing algorithms (couterattacks), picking up items, etc.
It's gonna be much bigger than the attacks article.

>>> Merge - undoes Divide (for an interesting twist on blobs)
> Or you could have small creatures in the first place who can merge to create
> bigger ones later.
> Say, 3 small blobs => 1 big blob, much more dangerous :)  There where some
> critters like that in Phantasy Star 4

Good idea. I can't recall that monster in PS4, but I didn't finish it, so
maybe I didn't get that far :) 

In Chronotrigger there are many monsters that do their 'combo' attacks,
that require cooperation of two or more kinds of monsters.

* Cooperation -- performed by several monsters at a time.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(Oo) 3 Eh?
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:52:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:

> At Thu, 08 Sep 2005 20:56:08 +0200,
> Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
>
>> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
>>> At 08 Sep 2005 19:31:58 +0100,
>>> Chris Morris wrote:
>>>> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@ sheep.prv.pl> writes:
>>>>> Great ideas everyone! More?
>>>
>>>> Web - slows, entangles, etc. but can also be applied to a square
>>>> instead of a creature as a sort of trap.
>>>> Fly/levitate - avoid terrain, or get out of reach of PC
>>>> Hide - become difficult to see unless really close (chameleons?)
>>>> Invisible - become impossible to see without special powers
>>> These are not really attacks, even if you broaden the term.
>>> I'm planning to put them in a separate article, 'monster behaviours'.
>> And what about monster passive counter effets. Effects which are
>> triggered by specific attacker actions ? Like using fire against a fire
>> elemental gives him the effect of a healing+blessing spell.
>
> They will also go to the behaviors, along with all kinds of movement,
> attack-choosing algorithms (couterattacks), picking up items, etc.
> It's gonna be much bigger than the attacks article.
>
>>>> Merge - undoes Divide (for an interesting twist on blobs)
>> Or you could have small creatures in the first place who can merge to
>> create bigger ones later.
>> Say, 3 small blobs => 1 big blob, much more dangerous :)  There where some
>> critters like that in Phantasy Star 4
>
> Good idea. I can't recall that monster in PS4, but I didn't finish it, so
> maybe I didn't get that far :) 

There were 2 kind of monsters : small blobs would merge for a big blob, and
2 different monsters called bladeright and hakenleft which would merge to
form a monster called twinarms

> In Chronotrigger there are many monsters that do their 'combo' attacks,
> that require cooperation of two or more kinds of monsters.
>
> * Cooperation -- performed by several monsters at a time.
>

Forgot about that one : meta attacks which damage according to a percent of
the remaining HP or the max HP. FF style attacks which take 1/2 of the HP
for example.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 2:04:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

"Shedletsky" <mylastname@stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:D fq49f$q50$2@news.Stanford.EDU...
> This is a great discussion. Here's what I cooked up just now (or stole
> from
> obscure places).
>
> * Condemn - Put's a timer on the PC. When it expires the PC dies. This
> timer
> could either be dispelled or canceled when the monster dies. (interesting
> game dynamics here)

Another alternative would be to lay egg/seed inside PC. PC would need to dig
it out
(causing damage). Otherwise PC would die / lose control when egg hatches /
seed grows
enough.

Some additional:

* Modify/destroy equipment - Makes PC's items rust / damage / disenchant..
or destroy.
* Scatter equipment - Makes PC's equipment (some if not all) to be thrown
around.
* Self destruct - Suicide causing damage to PC.
* Sacrifice - If PC stands on an altar, sacrifice. Like in adom.
* Make deaf.
* Sonic attack - Causes damage / death unless PC is prepared - like wail of
the banshee in adom (instant death unless deaf).
* Modify air around PC - Makes harder / impossible to PC to breath.
* Modify vision - Modifies the way PC & player sees the level (e.g. shuffle,
blur vision); level itself is not modified. (this is similar to your
disorient attack.)
* Modify tile where PC is - Makes floor lava / quicksand / ..
* Modify PC's memory - Makes PC forget something, changes (e.g. quest
objectives) or gives new knowledge.
* Pull - Pulls PC closer. Might need prerequisites, e.g. first attach
tentacles / throw grapping hook to PC and then pull.
* Add item - Makes PC to accept an item (e.g. loadstone, timed explosive or
something else not so useful).
* Decide PC's next action(s) - Cause damage to itself, quaff a potion, zap a
wand, etc. One variant would be timed version: attack friendly shopkeeper
when next time in a shop / kick altar when seen.
* Take over - PC controls body of monster and monster controls body of PC.
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 3:32:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

>> * Balefire - Kills target and undoes the target's last N moves. Hard to
>> make
>> this practical since it requires you build an undo system into your RL.
>> However, once this system is in place you could do all sorts of
>> interesting
>> time effects.

> Yes, but how do you undo moves of only one creature, when they obviously
> interact?

I have thought about this some since it might be something I will use. My
idea is that I will save the states of the entire game for the last N turns
in an arraylist. Then, when something gets balefired, I revert to the saved
state from N turns ago. I place the current player in the old state, and
remove the victim.

This seems like a lot of work, but I will already have enabled save state
using object serialization for the save game feature, so to save the last N
states, I can simply stream the serialized data to an arraylist in memory
instead of a file on disk. Not sure what kind of overhead this is :-/

I think time-shifting effects like this are neat because, as far as I know,
no existing RL does anything like this (it's hard to do in C).
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 3:34:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

> Since when is the Final Fantasy series considered "obscure"?
>
> -Andrew ()

Last one I played was FF6, from ~1995. I just assumed a ten year old
videogame was obscure *shrug*
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 11:21:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
> At Thu, 8 Sep 2005 15:43:40 -0400,
> Shedletsky wrote:
>
>
> > * Disorient - Paint the screen upside down (this one could be great)
>
> Opinions vary ;) 
> One of the Zelda games had that 'reverse controls' effect.
> But I think it relies too much on the player's abilities -- we are
> talking about turn-based games, such an effect would only make the playing
> uncomfortable and increase the time the player takes to make his move,
> because of all that double-checking.

Zap'm has this, except as the effect of a cursed cortical implant. I
found it a very effective disinsentive for randomly plugging stuff into
your brain.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 11:32:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Shedletsky wrote:
> >> * Balefire - Kills target and undoes the target's last N moves. Hard to
> >> make
> >> this practical since it requires you build an undo system into your RL.
> >> However, once this system is in place you could do all sorts of
> >> interesting
> >> time effects.
>
> > Yes, but how do you undo moves of only one creature, when they obviously
> > interact?
>
> I have thought about this some since it might be something I will use. My
> idea is that I will save the states of the entire game for the last N turns
> in an arraylist. Then, when something gets balefired, I revert to the saved
> state from N turns ago. I place the current player in the old state, and
> remove the victim.

That would merely do a time-rollback, however.

What I think should happen is that you rewind the game the N turns.
You then replay forward N turns, repeating the players & all monsters
actions.

You keep a track of each creature's actions: "Attack north", "Drink
inventory item N", etc. If a creature was killed and no longer is
killed, it gets to run its AI to determine what it would have done.

The neat thing about this, IMHO, is that if an enemy were to balefire
your pet that had healed you, you could end up dead because your pet no
longer would have healed you.

Hmm... Another option is just to track all sources of damage/buffs and
when they occurred. You can then remove any of them that were
performed by that creature in that window, resurrecting as appropriate.
I think this is the most efficient and expected approach...

> This seems like a lot of work, but I will already have enabled save state
> using object serialization for the save game feature, so to save the last N
> states, I can simply stream the serialized data to an arraylist in memory
> instead of a file on disk. Not sure what kind of overhead this is :-/

The time cost of serializing the game state is often non-trivial.

> I think time-shifting effects like this are neat because, as far as I know,
> no existing RL does anything like this (it's hard to do in C).

It's no harder to do in C than it is in any other language.

The time-warp to when the player entered the level is a lot easier -
many roguelikes already freeze action on other levels, and this
provides one simple checkpoint that you could do easily.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:26:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At Thu, 08 Sep 2005 22:04:34 GMT,
Pekka Nurminen wrote:

>
> "Shedletsky" <mylastname@stanford.edu> wrote in message
> news:D fq49f$q50$2@news.Stanford.EDU...
>> This is a great discussion. Here's what I cooked up just now (or stole
>> from
>> obscure places).
>>
>> * Condemn - Put's a timer on the PC. When it expires the PC dies. This
>> timer
>> could either be dispelled or canceled when the monster dies. (interesting
>> game dynamics here)
>
> Another alternative would be to lay egg/seed inside PC. PC would need to dig
> it out
> (causing damage). Otherwise PC would die / lose control when egg hatches /
> seed grows
> enough.
>
> Some additional:
>
> * Modify/destroy equipment - Makes PC's items rust / damage / disenchant..
> or destroy.
> * Scatter equipment - Makes PC's equipment (some if not all) to be thrown
> around.
> * Self destruct - Suicide causing damage to PC.
> * Sonic attack - Causes damage / death unless PC is prepared - like wail of
> the banshee in adom (instant death unless deaf).
> * Modify tile where PC is - Makes floor lava / quicksand / ..
> * Pull - Pulls PC closer. Might need prerequisites, e.g. first attach
> tentacles / throw grapping hook to PC and then pull.
> * Decide PC's next action(s) - Cause damage to itself, quaff a potion, zap a
> wand, etc. One variant would be timed version: attack friendly shopkeeper
> when next time in a shop / kick altar when seen.
> * Take over - PC controls body of monster and monster controls body of PC.

These were already mentioned ;) 


> * Make deaf.
> * Modify air around PC - Makes harder / impossible to PC to breath.

What's supposed to be the effect of those?
I mean in the terms of game mechanics.

> * Modify PC's memory - Makes PC forget something, changes (e.g. quest
> objectives) or gives new knowledge.

I'll split this one into Amnesia and Teach.

> * Sacrifice - If PC stands on an altar, sacrifice. Like in adom.
> * Add item - Makes PC to accept an item (e.g. loadstone, timed explosive or
> something else not so useful).
> * Modify vision - Modifies the way PC & player sees the level (e.g. shuffle,
> blur vision); level itself is not modified. (this is similar to your
> disorient attack.)

These are great, added. Thank you.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
($s) 3 Ching!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 12:58:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski wrote:
> At 9 Sep 2005 07:32:39 -0700,
> Jeff Lait wrote:
>
> > Shedletsky wrote:
> >> >> * Balefire - Kills target and undoes the target's last N moves. Hard to
> >> >> make
> >> >> this practical since it requires you build an undo system into your RL.
> >> >> However, once this system is in place you could do all sorts of
> >> >> interesting
> >> >> time effects.
> >>
> >> > Yes, but how do you undo moves of only one creature, when they obviously
> >> > interact?
> >>
> >> I have thought about this some since it might be something I will use. My
> >> idea is that I will save the states of the entire game for the last N turns
> >> in an arraylist. Then, when something gets balefired, I revert to the saved
> >> state from N turns ago. I place the current player in the old state, and
> >> remove the victim.
> >
> > That would merely do a time-rollback, however.
> >
> > What I think should happen is that you rewind the game the N turns.
> > You then replay forward N turns, repeating the players & all monsters
> > actions.
> >
> > You keep a track of each creature's actions: "Attack north", "Drink
> > inventory item N", etc. If a creature was killed and no longer is
> > killed, it gets to run its AI to determine what it would have done.
> >
> > The neat thing about this, IMHO, is that if an enemy were to balefire
> > your pet that had healed you, you could end up dead because your pet no
> > longer would have healed you.
>
> The problem arises when the pc have interacted with some monster that's
> no longer there, or any other entity that changed because of the death
> of the balefired creature. A trivial example -- the player attacked that
> creature. Now, taht the creature is gone, should the pc move into it's
> position instead? Or maybe just waste a turn waiting?

Swing wildly at the air.

> The mosnter that
> would have been blocked won't wait a turn -- but it will attack instead,
> and it won't be where it was previously, so the player won't fight back.

I had intended that *all* creatures use pre-recorded moves, not just
the player. Thus the monster would still act as if it was blocked even
though it wasn't.

> It's like blind fighting. Suddenly everything is elsewhere, and offcourse
> the player isn't allowed to change his moves -- becuase that would be
> barely a rollback.

If none of the other monsters are allowed to change their moves, it is
like blind fighting, but not as bad as you suggested.

> > Hmm... Another option is just to track all sources of damage/buffs and
> > when they occurred. You can then remove any of them that were
> > performed by that creature in that window, resurrecting as appropriate.
> > I think this is the most efficient and expected approach...
>
> Yes, and it doesn't suffer from what I described.

Agreed. As I think about it, doing change tracking with ownership of
the changes is likely the best route.

Still has it issues. If I cast heal, I need to record the total points
that would have been healed, not the number that had actually been
healed.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:18:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@ sheep.prv.pl> writes:
> At 08 Sep 2005 19:31:58 +0100,
> Chris Morris wrote:
> > Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@ sheep.prv.pl> writes:
> >> Great ideas everyone! More?
>
> > Eat - swallow a smaller creature whole
> How is it different from 'Kill'?

It depends. If it's reasonably corrosion resistant the target still
has a few turns to get out by teleporting, or by doing huge amounts of
damage to the creature from the inside, or by allies killing the
creature and chopping it open. If the target is immune to corrosion
then it doesn't harm it at all, it just has to work out how to get
out...

If the creature is sufficiently large and the target is immune to
corrosion there could even be a whole dungeon-level inside. ;) 

> > Aging - ghosts in Adom, for example
> > Corrupt - corrupts or mutates the target while not going so far as to
> > polymorph it.
>
> These two are pretty fuzzy -- I mean there's no single good effect of
> aging or corruption. Maybe you could be a little more specific as to
> the effects?

Well, in Adom you get different stat bonuses and penalties depending
on your age, and you die if your age gets above the
racially-influenced limit. The effect an aging attack has depends on
how aging is implemented in the game, so it's hard to be more specific.

Corruption is tricky to define, but in Adom increments a corruption
counter, and every time that counter passes a milestone you gain a
corruption, which could be anything. So it's a bit like a fractional
curse.
"The demon hits you. You feel corrupted." x10-20
"The demon hits you. You feel corrupted. Horns grow from your forehead"

Any individual corruption attack (except really powerful ones) has no
visible effect, but the cumulative effect of many such attacks is
potentially lethal.

Crawl does it differently, but the overall effect is similar.

--
Chris
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:18:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At 09 Sep 2005 09:18:50 +0100,
Chris Morris wrote:

> Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@ sheep.prv.pl> writes:
>> At 08 Sep 2005 19:31:58 +0100,
>> Chris Morris wrote:
>> > Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@ sheep.prv.pl> writes:
>> >> Great ideas everyone! More?
>>
>> > Eat - swallow a smaller creature whole
>> How is it different from 'Kill'?
>
> It depends. If it's reasonably corrosion resistant the target still
> has a few turns to get out by teleporting, or by doing huge amounts of
> damage to the creature from the inside, or by allies killing the
> creature and chopping it open. If the target is immune to corrosion
> then it doesn't harm it at all, it just has to work out how to get
> out...
>
> If the creature is sufficiently large and the target is immune to
> corrosion there could even be a whole dungeon-level inside. ;) 

So in other words, you mean the NetHack's 'engluf' attack.

>> > Aging - ghosts in Adom, for example
>> > Corrupt - corrupts or mutates the target while not going so far as to
>> > polymorph it.
>>
>> These two are pretty fuzzy -- I mean there's no single good effect of
>> aging or corruption. Maybe you could be a little more specific as to
>> the effects?
>
> Well, in Adom you get different stat bonuses and penalties depending
> on your age, and you die if your age gets above the
> racially-influenced limit. The effect an aging attack has depends on
> how aging is implemented in the game, so it's hard to be more specific.
>
> Corruption is tricky to define, but in Adom increments a corruption
> counter, and every time that counter passes a milestone you gain a
> corruption, which could be anything. So it's a bit like a fractional
> curse.
> "The demon hits you. You feel corrupted." x10-20
> "The demon hits you. You feel corrupted. Horns grow from your forehead"
>
> Any individual corruption attack (except really powerful ones) has no
> visible effect, but the cumulative effect of many such attacks is
> potentially lethal.
>
> Crawl does it differently, but the overall effect is similar.

I try to avoid the effects that are bound too close to certain game
mechanics. When it's impossible, I try to include the description
of mechanics in the description of the attack.

The aging thus looks like a stat-drain attack with a chance of killing.
The corruption is more tricky. How about the Alphaman's mutations?

* Mutate -- pc grows/loses a bodypart, which changes his abilities.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(TT) 3 Waaah!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 1:56:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

"Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski" <thesheep@ sheep.prv.pl> wrote in message
news:slrndi2hp9.vn7.thesheep@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl...
> At Thu, 08 Sep 2005 22:04:34 GMT,
> Pekka Nurminen wrote:
>
>>
>> "Shedletsky" <mylastname@stanford.edu> wrote in message
>> news:D fq49f$q50$2@news.Stanford.EDU...
>
>> * Make deaf.
>> * Modify air around PC - Makes harder / impossible to PC to breath.
>
> What's supposed to be the effect of those?
> I mean in the terms of game mechanics.

make deaf
- Makes chatting harder (or impossible) since PC cannot hear anything.
Also could give resistance against sonic attacks.

modify air
- E.g. remove air, so it's vacuum.
PC needs to flee to another tile unless he can survice without air.
- This could include summoning of clouds (like in crawl).
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 2:20:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

sheep1 % sheep.prv.pl wrote:
[regarding swallow attacks]
>So in other words, you mean the NetHack's 'engluf' attack.

Nethack's "engulf" and "swallow" attacks are conceptually distinct. If
you can weather the damage indefinitely, an engulfer cannot kill you, but
a swallower is guaranteed to kill you after a finite period of time even
if you still have all your hit points, unless you escape before that time
has elapsed. "The purple worm totally digests you!"

(Also, a ring of slow digestion will prevent you from being swallowed,
but not from being engulfed.)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ in the metal and blood in the scent and mascara on a backcloth of
\ / lashes and scars in a flood of your tears in sackcloth and ashes
\/ -- Sisters of Mercy, "Flood I"
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 7:37:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At 9 Sep 2005 07:32:39 -0700,
Jeff Lait wrote:

> Shedletsky wrote:
>> >> * Balefire - Kills target and undoes the target's last N moves. Hard to
>> >> make
>> >> this practical since it requires you build an undo system into your RL.
>> >> However, once this system is in place you could do all sorts of
>> >> interesting
>> >> time effects.
>>
>> > Yes, but how do you undo moves of only one creature, when they obviously
>> > interact?
>>
>> I have thought about this some since it might be something I will use. My
>> idea is that I will save the states of the entire game for the last N turns
>> in an arraylist. Then, when something gets balefired, I revert to the saved
>> state from N turns ago. I place the current player in the old state, and
>> remove the victim.
>
> That would merely do a time-rollback, however.
>
> What I think should happen is that you rewind the game the N turns.
> You then replay forward N turns, repeating the players & all monsters
> actions.
>
> You keep a track of each creature's actions: "Attack north", "Drink
> inventory item N", etc. If a creature was killed and no longer is
> killed, it gets to run its AI to determine what it would have done.
>
> The neat thing about this, IMHO, is that if an enemy were to balefire
> your pet that had healed you, you could end up dead because your pet no
> longer would have healed you.

The problem arises when the pc have interacted with some monster that's
no longer there, or any other entity that changed because of the death
of the balefired creature. A trivial example -- the player attacked that
creature. Now, taht the creature is gone, should the pc move into it's
position instead? Or maybe just waste a turn waiting? The mosnter that
would have been blocked won't wait a turn -- but it will attack instead,
and it won't be where it was previously, so the player won't fight back.

It's like blind fighting. Suddenly everything is elsewhere, and offcourse
the player isn't allowed to change his moves -- becuase that would be
barely a rollback.

> Hmm... Another option is just to track all sources of damage/buffs and
> when they occurred. You can then remove any of them that were
> performed by that creature in that window, resurrecting as appropriate.
> I think this is the most efficient and expected approach...

Yes, and it doesn't suffer from what I described.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(: ) 3 Snap!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 8:27:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

"Jeff Lait" <torespondisfutile@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hmm... Another option is just to track all sources of damage/buffs and
>when they occurred. You can then remove any of them that were
>performed by that creature in that window, resurrecting as appropriate.
> I think this is the most efficient and expected approach...

Sounds about right. (Remember to also include landscape deltas if the
landscape can be modified by creature actions. Yes, this can cause
causality failures. This is why both sides relegated the use of balefire
to the status of a desperation tactic and were very careful to use the
weakest possible balefire. If you balefired someone hard enough, it was
possible to make it as if they had never been born.)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ in the metal and blood in the scent and mascara on a backcloth of
\ / lashes and scars in a flood of your tears in sackcloth and ashes
\/ -- Sisters of Mercy, "Flood I"
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 3:23:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

> I hope to make something like this on the Roguebasin Wiki, with the help
> of the community.

If you throw a first draft up onto Roguebasin, I'll be happy to give it a
lookover.
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 6:57:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 09 Sep 2005 10:20:19 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
<mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>sheep1 % sheep.prv.pl wrote:
>[regarding swallow attacks]
>>So in other words, you mean the NetHack's 'engluf' attack.
>
>Nethack's "engulf" and "swallow" attacks are conceptually distinct. If
>you can weather the damage indefinitely, an engulfer cannot kill you, but
>a swallower is guaranteed to kill you after a finite period of time even
>if you still have all your hit points, unless you escape before that time
>has elapsed. "The purple worm totally digests you!"
>
>(Also, a ring of slow digestion will prevent you from being swallowed,
>but not from being engulfed.)

The engulfing itself is the same, though. Under my scheme, they'd both
be engulfing, but with different additional effects -- the swallower has
a Delayed effect causing Death. And the ring thing is just different
resistances applying.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 6:57:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 09:56:26 GMT, "Pekka Nurminen"
<pekka.nurminen@nospam.pp8.inet.fi> wrote:

>modify air
> - E.g. remove air, so it's vacuum.
> PC needs to flee to another tile unless he can survice without air.
> - This could include summoning of clouds (like in crawl).

I would treat vacuum as a cloud. Only it would naturally disappear in
less than a turn, so maintaining it should continue to cost the caster
mana if monsters have mana.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 6:57:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 9 Sep 2005 07:32:39 -0700, "Jeff Lait"
<torespondisfutile@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Shedletsky wrote:
>> >> * Balefire - Kills target and undoes the target's last N moves. Hard to
>> >> make
>> >> this practical since it requires you build an undo system into your RL.
>> >> However, once this system is in place you could do all sorts of
>> >> interesting
>> >> time effects.
>>
>> > Yes, but how do you undo moves of only one creature, when they obviously
>> > interact?
>>
>> I have thought about this some since it might be something I will use. My
>> idea is that I will save the states of the entire game for the last N turns
>> in an arraylist. Then, when something gets balefired, I revert to the saved
>> state from N turns ago. I place the current player in the old state, and
>> remove the victim.
>
>That would merely do a time-rollback, however.

Plus removing the removed creature. Which is the only way to find out
what things would have been like without the creature.

>What I think should happen is that you rewind the game the N turns.
>You then replay forward N turns, repeating the players & all monsters
>actions.

Making no sense at all.

>You keep a track of each creature's actions: "Attack north", "Drink
>inventory item N", etc. If a creature was killed and no longer is
>killed, it gets to run its AI to determine what it would have done.

So, killed creatures don't hallucinate the deleted creature, just the
ones who originally lived. So they can kill the poor bastard swinging
away at something that isn't there. Great.

>The neat thing about this, IMHO, is that if an enemy were to balefire
>your pet that had healed you, you could end up dead because your pet no
>longer would have healed you.

Except that if that happened, I would likely have done something
different to prevent it, like use one of my healing potions.

Frankly, it's a bad idea to begin with, but a partial rollback like you
suggest produces a nonsensical sequence of events.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 8:30:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:23:12 -0400,
Shedletsky wrote:

>> I hope to make something like this on the Roguebasin Wiki, with the help
>> of the community.
>
> If you throw a first draft up onto Roguebasin, I'll be happy to give it a
> lookover.

The first version is online:

<http://roguebasin.t-o-m-e.net/index.php/A_list_of_monst...;

I just copied the relevant parts of the posts. Now it needs a little
polishing -- I'll do it gradually, anybody is free to make corrctions and
add new attacks, of course.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(@a) 3 Be?
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 8:30:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 12 Sep 2005 16:30:07 GMT, Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@
sheep.prv.pl> wrote:

>At Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:23:12 -0400,
> Shedletsky wrote:
>
>>> I hope to make something like this on the Roguebasin Wiki, with the help
>>> of the community.
>>
>> If you throw a first draft up onto Roguebasin, I'll be happy to give it a
>> lookover.
>
>The first version is online:
>
><http://roguebasin.t-o-m-e.net/index.php/A_list_of_monst...;
>
>I just copied the relevant parts of the posts. Now it needs a little
>polishing -- I'll do it gradually, anybody is free to make corrctions and
>add new attacks, of course.

Well, I'm posting my clean-up of the list anyway. Compare the approach.
If you want to wiki it, go ahead -- it's mostly just organizing and
editing this thread a bit, anyway.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 5:15:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

R. Dan Henry wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 09:56:26 GMT, "Pekka Nurminen"
> <pekka.nurminen@nospam.pp8.inet.fi> wrote:
>
>>modify air
>> - E.g. remove air, so it's vacuum.
>> PC needs to flee to another tile unless he can survice without air.
>> - This could include summoning of clouds (like in crawl).
>
> I would treat vacuum as a cloud. Only it would naturally disappear in
> less than a turn, so maintaining it should continue to cost the caster
> mana if monsters have mana.

Reminds me of the overkill implosion spell of M&M 4&5. It might be better to
just least the implosion happen than to try to suffocate the target. It's
likely to kill him much faster and it works on nearly anything :) 
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 1:44:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> schrieb:

> Damage can also be:
> III) Delayed. No damage done when hit, only later does it take effect.
> As far as I know, no true Delayed damage is done in any existing
> roguelike. Preventive measures might occur in the meantime. Delayed
> could be, oh, alien/giant wasp lays egg in you. Sometime later, chest
> explodes.

Green slimes and cockatrices have delayed effects that you try to
nullify in those three or four precious turns, though they don't exactly
do delayed damage.

--
Jim Strathmeyer
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 2:12:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> writes:
> On 9 Sep 2005 07:32:39 -0700, "Jeff Lait"
> <torespondisfutile@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >That would merely do a time-rollback, however.

Time *and* RNG state, ideally. You don't want the goblin to hit your
henchman when they missed before the goblin was balefired.

Of course, since the goblin won't be taking up global RNG state if
it's not there, you need to give everything in the game a personal RNG
state.

> Plus removing the removed creature. Which is the only way to find out
> what things would have been like without the creature.

There's an obvious catch here, of course.
MP Message
100/100 "You open the door. An ambush greets you. You balefire the goblin"
11/100 <time rollback>
100/100 "You open the door. An ambush greets you. You balefire the hobgoblin"
11/100 <time rollback>
100/100 "You open the door. An ambush greets you. You balefire the dire wolf"
....etc...
So you just keep going round the loop until all the monsters are dead.

Or even better, you balefire the goblin, and go back a bit, then
second time round balefire the hobgoblin a round *earlier*, so the
goblin reappears (and should disappear next round, but try keeping
track of all that).

Possibly if your engine can't keep track of what's supposed to be
happening with multiple balefire beams it should just throw everyone
into an abyss and be done with it :) 

> Frankly, it's a bad idea to begin with, but a partial rollback like you
> suggest produces a nonsensical sequence of events.

A full rollback isn't much better, though. Absolutely agreed on it
being a really bad idea.

--
Chris
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 5:03:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Quoting R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com>:
>Damage can also be:
>III) Delayed. No damage done when hit, only later does it take effect.
>As far as I know, no true Delayed damage is done in any existing
>roguelike. Preventive measures might occur in the meantime.

Deathly sickness, stoning, sliming etc. in NetHack.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Teleute, September.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 1:32:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:57:48 -0700,
R Dan Henry wrote:

> On 08 Sep 2005 15:01:32 GMT, Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@
> sheep.prv.pl> wrote:
>
>>The order is chaotic.
>
> Something of a problem in a list, esp. for someone trying to determine
> if his own idea is new and should be added or is already covered. Note
> the following organization attempts to cover the suggestions in this
> thread that are attacks (there's a fair number of things in the far
> broader class of "things monsters might do" -- I've dropped these as
> another subject) and mostly classifies by effects, not by in-game
> description. Summoning, animating objects, cloning oneself, etc. are not
> attacks.
>
> Nor is healing the character an attack, although it is useful to
> consider how an ally might do so. Since that is essentially simply
> reversing various attack types, I don't think that deserves a separate
> listing, just a note of reminder.

<snip>

Great analysis, took me a while to read it.
You did a great amount of work dissecting the attacks types and
cathegorizing them. I'am trurly impressed, altrough there's one
minor point I want to address later.

However, I think the 'raw list of ideas' also has it's place on the
wiki -- I suggested it before on the Themes page. These ideas are
not supposed to give you better understanding of the matter (your
article does it much, much better), but intstead give a boost to
your imagination. You know, kind of like brainstorming. Personally,
I find such "raw" resources very helpful, because they don't suggest
an implementation, don't fix the way you look at the problem -- on
the contrary, they can broaden your look. Not that detailed analysis
of the problem at hand isn't even more helpful ;) 

Now, for the minor point. I think that healing and other "positive"
effects can also count as attack effects. You're likely to have an
attack with several effects. It's more interesting, if not all of
them are actually harmful.

For example, there could be a monster that heals you when it hits you,
but corrupts you at the same time. Or heals you, but uses up you mana
for that. Or a monster with a healing attack that will heal everything
around -- usually more beneficial to monsters than to player, as they'll
have an advantage in numbers.

Similarily, there could be attacks that deal a lot of magical damage, but
can have side effects of enchanting your equipment and recharging wands.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(@a) 3 Be?
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 8:33:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 14 Sep 2005 13:03:25 +0100 (BST), David Damerell
<damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Quoting R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com>:
>>Damage can also be:
>>III) Delayed. No damage done when hit, only later does it take effect.
>>As far as I know, no true Delayed damage is done in any existing
>>roguelike. Preventive measures might occur in the meantime.
>
>Deathly sickness, stoning, sliming etc. in NetHack.

And UIAM, none of these do damage as I defined it, but change player
status. Use of Delayed results for a status effect has been done and I
acknowledged this in my analysis of the way my system handles NH
"engulfed" v. "swallowed" states.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 8:33:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 14 Sep 2005 21:32:36 GMT, Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <thesheep@
sheep.prv.pl> wrote:

>For example, there could be a monster that heals you when it hits you,
>but corrupts you at the same time. Or heals you, but uses up you mana
>for that. Or a monster with a healing attack that will heal everything
>around -- usually more beneficial to monsters than to player, as they'll
>have an advantage in numbers.

Anything that bizarre should IMO originate at the level of the monster
concept, not result from looking at a list of ideas for making a monster
more "interesting". An "a healing attack that will heal everything
around" is not an attack, it is a healing (defensive) spell with a
possible benefit to the player.

>Similarily, there could be attacks that deal a lot of magical damage, but
>can have side effects of enchanting your equipment and recharging wands.

Yes, there can, but all of these effects are just combining reversals of
attacks with attacks, so the regular attack list already serves as a
resource for designing them.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 10:36:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On 14 Sep 2005 13:03:25 +0100 (BST), David Damerell
> <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >Quoting R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com>:
> >>Damage can also be:
> >>III) Delayed. No damage done when hit, only later does it take effect.
> >>As far as I know, no true Delayed damage is done in any existing
> >>roguelike. Preventive measures might occur in the meantime.
> >
> >Deathly sickness, stoning, sliming etc. in NetHack.
>
> And UIAM, none of these do damage as I defined it, but change player
> status. Use of Delayed results for a status effect has been done and I
> acknowledged this in my analysis of the way my system handles NH
> "engulfed" v. "swallowed" states.

ADOM's (and, for that matter, POWDER's, as it shamelessly copied this
from ADOM) final poison damage would be delayed damage.

The normal damage over time is supplanted by an extra dose of damage
when the poison expires. In POWDER, as a result of a bug which I have
canonified as "working as intendend", the final poison damage happens
even if you have poison resistance. This means with poison resistance
being poisoned causes no damage until a certain delay is over.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 4:12:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 16 Sep 2005 06:36:03 -0700, "Jeff Lait"
<torespondisfutile@hotmail.com> wrote:

>R. Dan Henry wrote:
>> On 14 Sep 2005 13:03:25 +0100 (BST), David Damerell
>> <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >Quoting R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com>:
>> >>Damage can also be:
>> >>III) Delayed. No damage done when hit, only later does it take effect.
>> >>As far as I know, no true Delayed damage is done in any existing
>> >>roguelike. Preventive measures might occur in the meantime.
>> >
>> >Deathly sickness, stoning, sliming etc. in NetHack.
>>
>> And UIAM, none of these do damage as I defined it, but change player
>> status. Use of Delayed results for a status effect has been done and I
>> acknowledged this in my analysis of the way my system handles NH
>> "engulfed" v. "swallowed" states.
>
>ADOM's (and, for that matter, POWDER's, as it shamelessly copied this
>from ADOM) final poison damage would be delayed damage.

Okay, that qualifies. Progressive + Delayed damage poison.

>The normal damage over time is supplanted by an extra dose of damage
>when the poison expires. In POWDER, as a result of a bug which I have
>canonified as "working as intendend", the final poison damage happens
>even if you have poison resistance. This means with poison resistance
>being poisoned causes no damage until a certain delay is over.

So possibly purely Delayed damage in POWDER. Oh, and that's *evil*!

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
September 19, 2005 6:50:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Quoting R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com>:
><damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>Quoting R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com>:
>>>III) Delayed. No damage done when hit, only later does it take effect.
>>>As far as I know, no true Delayed damage is done in any existing
>>>roguelike. Preventive measures might occur in the meantime.
>>Deathly sickness, stoning, sliming etc. in NetHack.
>And UIAM, none of these do damage as I defined it, but change player
>status.

I'm not sure I see the difference between this and your example of a
beastie bursting out of the character's chest. It changes the character's
status; specifically, to being dead.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Olethros, September - a weekend.
!