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18 month barrage of YANIs

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Anonymous
February 17, 2005 1:50:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Greetings,

When playing nethack I write down in a file called YANIs anything that
I think might make the game better. Since I've now ascended every
class, I'm going to be taking a long long break. I also think I am now
qualified to present the edited highlights of this file for your
consideration. It's large, so I've split it up into several sections:
major changes, minor tweaks, purely aesthetic changes, and bugs.

I think my ideas are pretty conservative. Nethack does not need more
objects, it needs better interactions between existing objects. Class
differentiation is good, but not to the point where you're playing a
different game by playing different classes.

Some areas which could use general development: scoring system,
Gehennom, and pudding farming (!). These topics have been dealt with
elsewhere so I won't go into them any further than to cheer on efforts
to fix them.

Major Changes
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

These YANIs are quite general. I don't expect them to be incorporated
into the game; they are merely what I would find interesting additions.

* Pits could stand to be improved. Digging a pit next to water fills it
with water, but if this pit is part of a line of pits, this trench
doesn't get filled with water. So it appears that pits are not
interconnected. This should change. This way you could create cool
flood traps.

* Landmines don't set off adjacent landmines. If this were possible,
you could create chain-explosions reminiscent of exploding barrels in
Doom. I have a feeling the code changes required for this YANI would be
similar to those for the one above.

* Nothing happens when you dig down in water. Either there should be a
message ("The silt rushes in and immediately fills the newly-dug hole")
or it should actually work: the square is turned into a hole and you
wind up on the next level, possibly with a square of water next to you.

* I like the way smoky and milky potions have effects based on their
color, regardless of their actual type of potion. This should be
extended further. Perhaps all fizzy potions should cure confusion, or
all plumed helmets should raise charisma by 1. See also the recent YANI
about dull spellbooks.

* Traps should affect things passing through them. That means
anti-magic fields should block rays/spells, and items should polymorph
if you throw them through a polymorph trap. There are some other neat
tricks that this might enable, for example remote triggering of land
mines and rolling boulder traps.

* All intelligent artifacts should resist being put in a container.
This makes the game somewhat harder, but harder in a good way.

* #chatting should be a bigger part of the game; thus mute could become
a new conduct. The #sit command is also underused. I read a YANI a
while back about #sit enabling Monks to meditate, with various effects.
I would very much like to see underused command like these expanded
rather than new commands added.

* More varied main dungeon. Example: Why do Vladtrap/vaultporters only
ever occur on north or south walls of rooms? Why are all rooms
rectangular? There are many, many things like this, small changes to
which could greatly increase the variety of the dungeons.

* If you drop something in lava, it sinks to the bottom. However, if
you #sit, you sit on the item.... If you try to pick it up, you are
told "you would burn to a crisp", even if fire resistant. If you are
Fire Resistant, you still die when you sink into the lava. I propose
that instead, you should be able to swim, if your strength is high
enough and you are wearing an amulet of magical breathing. Xorns should
be able to move freely through lava, at least.

* Monsters should use wands of wishing. Monsters should loot unlocked
containers. Monsters should stop zapping you if they see you have
reflection. Monsters with weak melee attacks should retreat if they
have stronger non-melee attacks. All of this only applies to
monsters with minds, of course.

* When engulfed in blob-like monsters, digging down currently almost
kills them. How about instead of this, they divide like a pudding and
you are expelled. This make Juiblex considerably harder. No bad thing
IMHO.

Minor Tweaks
~~~~~~~~~~~~

These I consider fairly non-controversial and I believe would genuinely
improve the texture of the game. I'm afraid I can't offer code, but I
would very much like to see these ones incorporated.

* Electric eel corpses should grant a large Pw increase. Possibly blue
dragons too.
* Amulets of restful sleep should confer regeneration for the turns
that you spend sleeping.
* Fainting while wielding a c corpse should give same result as falling
with one: stoning!
* Vomiting on an altar should offend its God, as should digging on it.
* Dragons should have a smaller chance of leaving scales if they are
killed with a sharp weapon.
* Shopkeepers are happy to deal with invisible customers if they enter
the shop other than through the front door. They should refuse to deal
with you.
* Silver arrows should cost more, by virtue of being silver, and
"precious" rings should have some kind of surcharge too, above the base
cost of that type of ring.
* Wands of light should be weapons against vampires. "The lit field
sears the vampire's flesh!"
* Pick-axes should do double-damage against Earth-elementals, clay
golems and stone golems.
* High level spellcasting monsters should have stone-to-flesh in their
arsenal. Then they can use it on statues which come to life, always
fighting on their side. They should also attempt to cast Charm Monster
on your pets, with success inversely proportional to the pet's level.
* The description for the katana says it can be used as a two-handed
sword. Maybe #twoweapon could be adapted for this, i.e. use both hands
on the weapon for an extra damage bonus based on strength, at the
expense of being able to use a shield.
* Cavemen should get a large damage/to-hit bonus when throwing spears
at large mammals.
* Asmodeus is a "cold" demon. Perhaps he should not be visible with
infravision?
* Should be able to use either #monster or #chat while poly'd into a
foocubus to seduce (i.e. de-robe) @ monsters.
* #Sitting on the floor should mess up things written in the dust.
* Fire/Water elementals should not only not be injured by fire/water
traps - they should be strengthened! This might make the plane of fire
tougher.
* Lighting multiple light sources should illuminate a large area. Got
two magic lamps? Put them both to use!
* Polytraps disappear after you've used them, but not after monsters
have. Why the inconsistency?
* Foobane should be a little more baneful, i.e. maybe they should scare
the foo as well as causing extra damage.
* Beartraps should injure your feet like xans do.
* The quest-text associated with the Sceptre of Might suggests it
confers strength. This is a good idea! The +n Sceptre of Might should
act like a +n ring of gain strength.
* You should have a greater chance of failing to write in the dust if
your fingers are slippery.
* Wands of opening zapped down whilst in a beartrap should free you
immediately.

Aesthetic Tweaks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Chatting to hallucination monsters should give YAFMs.
* YAFM required for when polymorphed into a glass golem and you rub a
touchstone against "-" (which IIRC is yourself).
* Relatedly, apply '-' for a YAFM: "$(QUESTLEADER) always said you
needed to apply yourself!"
* New fortune: "20% off Genuine Black Dragon tins. GUARANTEED to make
you VERY FIRM. Nurse approved!"
* The appendage ("foreclaw") for a paper golem should be "forescroll"
or something. "Endpapers"?
* Death descriptions should distinguish between "killed by a falling
boulder", "killed by a hurled boulder", and "killed by a rolling
boulder."

Bugs/Interface
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

* Pick up some unholy water and some holy water in a shop. Both should
cost 100zm. Dip one in the other. The resulting water costs 100zm in
your inventory, but if you drop it, it changes to costing 5zm. You are
only charged 100zm for the consumption of one of the two potions. You
should be charged for the consumption of both.
* If the castle drawbridge opens when blind, you don't hear it, but you
*do* know that the correct tune is the passtune. The tune should not be
identified as the passtune until you have seen the drawbridge open.
* If vault guards get angry and attack you, #chatting to them results
in "please drop that gold and follow me". If you do so, he says "Please
follow me". But he continues to attack you! I suggest a new line for
angry guards: something like "Master didn't get rich by putting up with
the likes of you!" You also get the message "The corridor disappears"
after killing a guard, even if you kill him nowhere near the corridor.
* If you escape a pit which has items at the bottom, you can #sit on
the items, but still be unable to reach them if you try picking them
up. #sit or '>' should make you enter the pit.
* The message "There is already a game in progress under your name.
Destroy old game? [yn]" (when a game is currently running) should have
q as an option, since it is accepted.
* Saved games should save the previous N messages, so that one can find
out what happened recently upon returning to a game after a long break.
* Option to make the confirmation letter "Y" instead of "y" so that you
don't accidentally hit people when moving in the "y" direction.
* The entry in the encyclopedia for Monk has a typo: "month"/"mouth"

Outlandish ideas
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just throwing these out here for the fun of it.

* Being bitten by a zombie should reduce your Int by one point. If it
drops below 3 by this method, you turn into a zombie. Curable by
unicorn horn, so it's not so bad, although early characters will have
to watch out since zombies are a common low-level monster.
* Give the Healer intrinsic Disease resistance at XPlvl 17. Demogorgon
and Pestilence become much easier, making up for this class being
rock-hard at the beginning.
* Or perhaps a less drastic change: a healer should be able to hit
Death bare handed and get something like "Your healing hands sear
Death's body!"

Finally, why is Wizard Lock not just called Lock? Is this a D&D
holdover?


Phew! That's that. All of the above were accumulated over about 18
months of playing. I now intend to take a break... at least until the
next version is released :) 

Sam

More about : month barrage yanis

Anonymous
February 18, 2005 3:40:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

There are some good ideas in this list, especially the trap
improvements. I like some of the ideas in minor tweaks as well. Some
of your suggested improvements seem more like bug fixes in fact (like
fainting while wielding a cockatrice stoning you -- it doesn't now?).
Pickaxes & other digging tools doing extra damage to earth elementals &
stone monsters also makes sense in a Nethackish kind of way. And it'd
be nice if Amulets of Restful Sleep had some function to justify the
"restful" portion of its name, maybe power regeneration. (I'm all for
giving all the "bad" items sneaky uses, though I'm at a loss for what
could be done for amulets of strangulation.)

I'm unsure about fire/water traps strengthening elementals however,
seems a little too trite to me. Monsters not using wishing wands
strikes me as okay (they're rare enough as it is anyway).

- John H.
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 6:05:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack,misc.misc (More info?)

John H. wrote:

> Monsters not using wishing wands strikes me as
> okay (they're rare enough as it is anyway).

Sure. The object of each side is to "win", and for
the monster side, winning consists exactly of
getting rid of the PC, and nothing at all else
matters. So, what else is an intelligent monster
going to wish for, but a blessed scroll of genocide,
and genocide the PC's race, anyway?

And in "win at any cost mode", even a co-race
monster of the PC's would do that.

FWIW

xanthian.

Speaking of which, why don't intelligent monsters
who find a b?oGenocide do that now? The PC can
hardly get a saving throw against Genocide!!!
Related resources
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 9:30:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

> Sure. The object of each side is to "win", and for
> the monster side, winning consists exactly of
> getting rid of the PC, and nothing at all else
> matters. So, what else is an intelligent monster
> going to wish for, but a blessed scroll of genocide,
> and genocide the PC's race, anyway?

It's important to note that, while Nethack gets a lot of mileage out of
giving monsters similar abilities and even knowledge of tactics that
the player gets, it is not actually to the point, and neither should it
be, that monsters can do anything the player can.

Wands of Wishing and Scrolls of Genocide are examples of this, and I
think you give an excellent reason why they are not usable by monsters.
Rings of Conflict are another (what, suddenly the game's pretending
you're wielding Stormbringer, what gives?). Cloaks of Displacement (or
any cloak I believe) are also not used by monsters, though it might be
fun if they were.

One area, however, where monsters should probably be more active in
using inventory items is with rings, which are currently ignored by the
monster AI if memory serves, unlike amulets.

- John H.
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 12:53:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

> "restful" portion of its name, maybe power regeneration. (I'm all for
> giving all the "bad" items sneaky uses, though I'm at a loss for what
> could be done for amulets of strangulation.)

If you drop one while swallowed by a monster it could die of suffocation.


Greetings,
Benjamin
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 5:55:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In rec.games.roguelike.nethack Kent Paul Dolan <xanthian@well.com> wrote:
> John H. wrote:

>> Monsters not using wishing wands strikes me as
>> okay (they're rare enough as it is anyway).
> Sure. The object of each side is to "win", and for
> the monster side, winning consists exactly of
> getting rid of the PC, and nothing at all else
> matters. So, what else is an intelligent monster
> going to wish for, but a blessed scroll of genocide,
> and genocide the PC's race, anyway?

I'm having trouble with the motivation of the other side. I prefer to think
of the inhabitants of the dungeon as a ragtag lot of creatures that have
established a working relationship with each other, and only pick on the
player character because he's something new. I don't see them as a collective
band of fighters, trying his best to destroy the player character for the
benifit of their "side".

Thinking along those lines, and I'm sure this has been suggested before, but
it would be cool to have natural enemies within the game (orcs and elves come
to mind) or a predator/prey relationship (cats hunting mice). The intelligent
player could then fend off an attack of one by luring them to their enemy/food
supply.

Yeah, programming hard. Leave me alone; I like my perfect world.

carl
--
carl cox , carldotcox@gtri.gatech.edu
Research Scientist: GTRI/ITTL/CSITD
On a scale of One to Awesome, I'm Super Great. -SB
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 7:33:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

carldotcox@gtri.gatech.edu wrote:

> I prefer to think of the inhabitants of the dungeon as a ragtag lot
> of creatures that have established a working relationship with each
> other, and only pick on the player character because he's something
> new. I don't see them as a collective band of fighters, trying his
> best to destroy the player character for the benifit of their "side".

Or, as the in-game / help says when you question it about "humans":

These strange creatures live mostly on the surface of the
earth, gathering together in societies of various forms, but
occasionally a stray will descend into the depths and commit
mayhem among the dungeon residents who, naturally, often
resent the intrusion of such beasts. They are capable of
using weapons and magic, and it is even rumored that the
Wizard of Yendor is a member of this species.

> Thinking along those lines, and I'm sure this has been suggested
> before, but it would be cool to have natural enemies within the game
> (orcs and elves come to mind)

This has indeed been suggested before, many times. I suppose it could
even be added to the hardy perennials in the FAQ. :-)

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
February 18, 2005 9:10:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Sammiel wrote:
> * I like the way smoky and milky potions have effects based on their
> color, regardless of their actual type of potion. This should be
> extended further. Perhaps all fizzy potions should cure confusion, or
> all plumed helmets should raise charisma by 1. See also the recent YANI
> about dull spellbooks.

Perhaps cursed fizzy potions could cause temporary blindness. Have you
read the warnings on a bottle of soda recently? ;) 
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 9:47:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

begin quoting Sammiel <lowrysam@gmail.com>:
[various others squirreled away in my auxiliary memory]
>* If you drop something in lava, it sinks to the bottom. However, if
>you #sit, you sit on the item.... If you try to pick it up, you are
>told "you would burn to a crisp", even if fire resistant.

This is not unrelated to the series of pit bugs; NH is still fundamentally
2D.

>* Give the Healer intrinsic Disease resistance at XPlvl 17. Demogorgon
>and Pestilence become much easier, making up for this class being
>rock-hard at the beginning.

I don't think that will fly; it's quite deliberate that some classes are
just difficult.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Second Friday, February.
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 1:20:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 2005-02-17, Sammiel <lowrysam@gmail.com> wrote:

> * Give the Healer intrinsic Disease resistance at XPlvl 17. Demogorgon
> and Pestilence become much easier, making up for this class being
> rock-hard at the beginning.

Try playing slashem-- Undead Slayers and Necromancers get sickness
resistance at lvl 1.

--
Andrew D. Hilton
UPenn Phd Student
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 2:56:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Sammiel" <lowrysam@gmail.com> wrote:

> Monsters should use wands of wishing.

If they're allowed to read scrolls of genocide as well, you might have
a problem!

P.
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 10:51:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Sammiel" <lowrysam@gmail.com> wrote in message news:<1108666208.165908.172120@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>...
> * Lighting multiple light sources should illuminate a large area. Got
> two magic lamps? Put them both to use!

Note that candles work this way. The more candles you use (in a bunch)
the bigger the radius of light. From light.c:

/*
* Range is incremented by powers of 7 so that it will take
* wizard mode quantities of candles to get more light than
* from a lamp, without imposing an arbitrary limit.
* 1..6 candles, range 2;
* 7..48 candles, range 3;
* 49..342 candles, range 4; &c.
*/

> * Beartraps should injure your feet like xans do.
> * Wands of opening zapped down whilst in a beartrap should free you
> immediately.

Good idea. Done:
http://malcolmr.web.cse.unsw.edu.au/~malcolmr/nethack/3...

Malcolm
Anonymous
February 19, 2005 10:55:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote in message news:<cv51s7$9r$1@news4.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>...
> carldotcox@gtri.gatech.edu wrote:
> > Thinking along those lines, and I'm sure this has been suggested
> > before, but it would be cool to have natural enemies within the game
> > (orcs and elves come to mind)
>
> This has indeed been suggested before, many times. I suppose it could
> even be added to the hardy perennials in the FAQ. :-)

Not only suggested, but implemented. Check out Nephi's Grudge Patch:
http://www.geocities.com/zindorsky/patches/grudge-desc....

Malcolm
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 6:02:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:
> begin quoting Sammiel <lowrysam@gmail.com>:
> [various others squirreled away in my auxiliary memory]
> >* If you drop something in lava, it sinks to the bottom. However, if
> >you #sit, you sit on the item.... If you try to pick it up, you are
> >told "you would burn to a crisp", even if fire resistant.
>
> This is not unrelated to the series of pit bugs; NH is still
fundamentally
> 2D.

Yes, unfortunate that. Thinking about it, I'm not sure I'd want it to
change. If a really comprehensive implementation of height was done
then it would, heh, literally add a new dimension to the game, but
opens so many cans of worms that the coding effort would perhaps be
better spent elsewhere.

Sam
Anonymous
February 20, 2005 7:41:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

> * Pits could stand to be improved. Digging a pit next to water fills
it
> with water, but if this pit is part of a line of pits, this trench
> doesn't get filled with water. So it appears that pits are not
> interconnected. This should change. This way you could create cool
> flood traps.
>

Nice... should ideally be handled automatically by the physics engine.
If we had one :) 

> * Landmines don't set off adjacent landmines. If this were possible,
> you could create chain-explosions reminiscent of exploding barrels in
> Doom. I have a feeling the code changes required for this YANI would
be
> similar to those for the one above.
>

Feels right! But see above.

> * Traps should affect things passing through them. That means
> anti-magic fields should block rays/spells, and items should
polymorph
> if you throw them through a polymorph trap. There are some other neat
> tricks that this might enable, for example remote triggering of land
> mines and rolling boulder traps.
>

Same again.

> * Electric eel corpses should grant a large Pw increase. Possibly
blue
> dragons too.

I like this one too. Eel corpses are pretty hard to get hold of anyway.

> * Amulets of restful sleep should confer regeneration for the turns
> that you spend sleeping.

Makes sense!

> * Pick-axes should do double-damage against Earth-elementals, clay
> golems and stone golems.

Yes.

> * Fire/Water elementals should not only not be injured by fire/water
> traps - they should be strengthened! This might make the plane of
fire
> tougher.

Strengthened how? Healed maybe. Actually, here's a YANI for elementals
to make them more interesting, and to give a sense of urgency to the
planes. If two elementals are standing next to each other, they have a
chance of merging to form a new elemental with a level equal to the sum
of the two monsters.

> * Polytraps disappear after you've used them, but not after monsters
> have. Why the inconsistency?

Having an infinite number of attempts to polymorph your pet into
something interesting has always struck me as overly generous. It would
be better if the trap had a 10% chance of disappearing whether you or a
monster steps on it.

> * Being bitten by a zombie should reduce your Int by one point. If it
> drops below 3 by this method, you turn into a zombie. Curable by
unicorn
> horn, so it's not so bad, although early characters will have to
watch
> out since zombies are a common low-level monster.

Maybe. I would like to see zombies made more interesting. They're
currently cannon fodder. How about making undead immune to non-magical
(unenchanted and unblessed) weapons? Would make the beginning game
rather harder for combat classes.

rls
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 5:06:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

John H. wrote:
>>Sure. The object of each side is to "win", and for
>>the monster side, winning consists exactly of
>>getting rid of the PC, and nothing at all else
>>matters. So, what else is an intelligent monster
>>going to wish for, but a blessed scroll of genocide,
>>and genocide the PC's race, anyway?
>
> It's important to note that, while Nethack gets a lot of mileage out of
> giving monsters similar abilities and even knowledge of tactics that
> the player gets, it is not actually to the point, and neither should it
> be, that monsters can do anything the player can.
>
> Wands of Wishing and Scrolls of Genocide are examples of this, and I
> think you give an excellent reason why they are not usable by monsters.
> Rings of Conflict are another (what, suddenly the game's pretending
> you're wielding Stormbringer, what gives?). Cloaks of Displacement (or
> any cloak I believe) are also not used by monsters, though it might be
> fun if they were.
>
> One area, however, where monsters should probably be more active in
> using inventory items is with rings, which are currently ignored by the
> monster AI if memory serves, unlike amulets.

One must remember that there is already a balancing issue:

Monsters don't have to identify objects, instead they know what they are.

So I'm ready to give monsters the ability to use every item in the DoD
if we also introduce the effect that monsters don't know what the items are.

Topi
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 5:11:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> carldotcox@gtri.gatech.edu wrote:

>>I prefer to think of the inhabitants of the dungeon as a ragtag lot
>>of creatures that have established a working relationship with each
>>other, and only pick on the player character because he's something
>>new. I don't see them as a collective band of fighters, trying his
>>best to destroy the player character for the benifit of their "side".

> Or, as the in-game / help says when you question it about "humans":

> These strange creatures live mostly on the surface of the
> earth, gathering together in societies of various forms, but
> occasionally a stray will descend into the depths and commit
> mayhem among the dungeon residents who, naturally, often
> resent the intrusion of such beasts. They are capable of
> using weapons and magic, and it is even rumored that the
> Wizard of Yendor is a member of this species.

But why the shopkeepers, priests, wathchmen, soldiers, Oracle etc. are
humans?

If the dungeon denizens gang up on the player because only stray humans
enter the dungeons, it's hard to imagine why the denizens don't gang up
on the other humans in the dungeon.

Topi
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 3:03:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Richard Llewellyn Smith" <richard.l.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
>Maybe. I would like to see zombies made more interesting. They're
>currently cannon fodder. How about making undead immune to non-magical
>(unenchanted and unblessed) weapons? Would make the beginning game
>rather harder for combat classes.

Some combat classes.

Valkyries (+1 long sword), Cavepersons (+1 club), and Knights (+1 long
sword *and* +1 lance) start the game with magic weapons, as do Priests
(+1 mace), Archaeologists (+2 bullwhip), Tourists (stack of +2 darts),
Rangers (+1 dagger, stack of +2 arrows), and Wizards (+1 quarterstaff).

Healers (+0 scalpel), Rogues (+0 short sword, +0 daggers), Samurai
(+0 katana, +0 short sword, +0 bow, +0 arrows), and Barbarians (+0
two-hander, +0 one-hander) do not.

In addition, the blessing state of most characters' starting weapons is
explicitly undefined, allowing them to be potentially blessed (but never
cursed).

So, yes, you could do this, but it takes additional work to achieve the
desired result.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.ht...
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 6:36:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Topi Linkala" <nes@iki.fi> wrote in message
news:cvb929$9qp$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>
>> carldotcox@gtri.gatech.edu wrote:
>
>>>I prefer to think of the inhabitants of the dungeon as a ragtag lot
>>>of creatures that have established a working relationship with each
>>>other, and only pick on the player character because he's something
>>>new. I don't see them as a collective band of fighters, trying his
>>>best to destroy the player character for the benifit of their "side".
>
>> Or, as the in-game / help says when you question it about "humans":
>
>> These strange creatures live mostly on the surface of the
>> earth, gathering together in societies of various forms, but
>> occasionally a stray will descend into the depths and commit
>> mayhem among the dungeon residents who, naturally, often
>> resent the intrusion of such beasts. They are capable of
>> using weapons and magic, and it is even rumored that the
>> Wizard of Yendor is a member of this species.
>
> But why the shopkeepers, priests, wathchmen, soldiers, Oracle etc. are
> humans?
>
> If the dungeon denizens gang up on the player because only stray humans
> enter the dungeons, it's hard to imagine why the denizens don't gang up on
> the other humans in the dungeon.
>
That's called evolution ;)  The idiot monsters who tried to take on
shopkeepers wound up very dead before they could raise little monsters.
Only the monsters who had the ability to discern the difference between the
newcomers and the one's who have been in the dungeon for a while survived,
until you get deep into Gehennom, where the monsters were strong enough to
take out shopkeepers, and Orcus set up camp.

Justin Hiltscher

P.S. This would mean that if the denizens saw a character named, say,
Efembe, they would immediately run in terror :) 
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 7:13:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Richard Llewellyn Smith <richard.l.smith@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1108946479.421987.27100@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > * Traps should affect things passing through them. That means
> > anti-magic fields should block rays/spells, and items should polymorph
> > if you throw them through a polymorph trap. There are some other neat
> > tricks that this might enable, for example remote triggering of land
> > mines and rolling boulder traps.
>
> Same again.
[About a possible included Physics system]

Well I really think that traps should be triggered by items, BUT only if
they land on the same square.
This would add nicely to the variety of Nethack ;) 

> > * Electric eel corpses should grant a large Pw increase. Possibly blue
> > dragons too.
>
> I like this one too. Eel corpses are pretty hard to get hold of anyway.

For Eel corpses yes but not for Blue dragons they already give an intrisic.
Hmm maybe if they either gave the intrinsic OR the power boost depending
(25%/75%?)

> > * Amulets of restful sleep should confer regeneration for the turns
> > that you spend sleeping.
>
> Makes sense!

Yes this does seem right, though they definitely should give Power
regeneration at the same time (maybe even full power regen?)

> > * Pick-axes should do double-damage against Earth-elementals, clay
> > golems and stone golems.
>
> Yes.
>

Not sure about double damage maybe +2 to Hit and +2d8 Dam, and don't forget
Mattocks!

> > * Fire/Water elementals should not only not be injured by fire/water
> > traps - they should be strengthened! This might make the plane of fire
> > tougher.
>
> Strengthened how? Healed maybe. Actually, here's a YANI for elementals
> to make them more interesting, and to give a sense of urgency to the
> planes. If two elementals are standing next to each other, they have a
> chance of merging to form a new elemental with a level equal to the sum
> of the two monsters.

Healed definitely otherwise I think they are fine!

> > * Polytraps disappear after you've used them, but not after monsters
> > have. Why the inconsistency?
>
> Having an infinite number of attempts to polymorph your pet into
> something interesting has always struck me as overly generous. It would
> be better if the trap had a 10% chance of disappearing whether you or a
> monster steps on it.

That seems to make more sense that how it is handled now, not that Nethack
needs to make sense :p 

> > * Being bitten by a zombie should reduce your Int by one point. If it
> > drops below 3 by this method, you turn into a zombie. Curable be unicorn
> > horn, so it's not so bad, although early characters will have to watch
> > out since zombies are a common low-level monster.
>
> Maybe. I would like to see zombies made more interesting. They're
> currently cannon fodder. How about making undead immune to non-magical
> (unenchanted and unblessed) weapons? Would make the beginning game
> rather harder for combat classes.

Well maybe 1/2 or 1/4 damage - Not immune (you can hack apart a dead body it
just takes time, especially if it is magically and physically resisting
it!). Also this should apply to Blessed unenchanted weapons, they will still
do the extra Blessed damage on top of this of course! Another way to spice
up the Zombie would be to allow them to grow up into the related Mummy if
they get the HD and are able to pick up a mummy wrapping to 'wear'. (maybe
add mummy wrappings to graveyard levels as 'random' items from formerly
killed mummys or non-undead mummys) Note: the Giant Mummy should have more
HD than the Zombie anyway, comments anyone?

How does the idea of weapons types affecting damage strike everybody? You
know Blunt/Piercing/Sharp changing the amount of damage to certain monsters,
like for a Skeleton taking x2 from Blunt, and x1/2 from Piercing.and so on,
think Glass golems for example!

Xeno.
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 10:07:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"XenoTheMorph" <XenoTheMorphREMTHIS@gmail.com> writes:

> [About a possible included Physics system]
>
> Well I really think that traps should be triggered by items, BUT only if
> they land on the same square.
> This would add nicely to the variety of Nethack ;) 

With no other restrictions this would mean unlimited polymorph with a
polytrap.

--
Panu
"You haven't really been anywhere until you've got back home",
Twoflower in "The Light Fantastic"
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 10:07:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Panu Lahtinen <pnuu@iki.fi> wrote in message
news:87zmxxn8p4.fsf@jt1ca-357.tky.hut.fi...
> "XenoTheMorph" <XenoTheMorphREMTHIS@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > [About a possible included Physics system]
> >
> > Well I really think that traps should be triggered by items, BUT only if
> > they land on the same square.
> > This would add nicely to the variety of Nethack ;) 
>
> With no other restrictions this would mean unlimited polymorph with a
> polytrap.

Well I was thinking that this wouldbe in conjunction with the following
idea -

"XenoTheMorph" <XenoTheMorphREMTHIS@gmail.com> writes:

> > > * Polytraps disappear after you've used them, but not after monsters
> > > have. Why the inconsistency?
> >
> > Having an infinite number of attempts to polymorph your pet into
> > something interesting has always struck me as overly generous. It would
> > be better if the trap had a 10% chance of disappearing whether you or a
> > monster steps on it.
>
> That seems to make more sense that how it is handled now, not that Nethack
> needs to make sense :p 

That should reduce any chance of abuse.

Xeno.
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 10:07:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Panu Lahtinen <pnuu@iki.fi> wrote:
> "XenoTheMorph" <XenoTheMorphREMTHIS@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> [About a possible included Physics system]
>>
>> Well I really think that traps should be triggered by items, BUT
>> only if they land on the same square.
>> This would add nicely to the variety of Nethack ;) 
>
> With no other restrictions this would mean unlimited polymorph with a
> polytrap.

But, IIRC when you step on a polytrap, only you are polymorphed, not the
items you are carrying with you, so why not say that indeed an item can
trigger a polytrap, but that the trap only affects "organic" or "living"
things (i.e. just the player and monsters) and not items. This wouldn't
really require modification (since polytraps don't affect items) and it
would not lead to poly-item abuse
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 7:29:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Topi Linkala <nes@iki.fi> wrote in news:cvb929$9qp$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi:

> But why the shopkeepers, priests, wathchmen, soldiers, Oracle etc. are
> humans?

Because the humans in the dungeon are those humans who went deep into the
depths of the Dungeons of Doom in hopes of securing the Amulet of Yendor
for their own glory. Halfway through, greeted by the bones and skulls of
past adventurers, they realized it was a fool's errand and they decided to
retire from the quest and seek their fortune through other avenues.

Thing is, humans aren't the only ones plumbing the depths of Nethack.
Elves, dwarves, gnomes and orcs join the ranks of doughty adventurers
seeking a pyrrhic victory against the Wizard of Yendor.
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 7:33:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Sammiel" <lowrysam@gmail.com> wrote in news:1108897346.758647.267250
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> but opens so many cans of worms

It is not so easy to open this tin. You succeed in opening the tin. It
smells like long worms. Eat it? [y/n]
!