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Potions in Castle's walls and a few other questions

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Anonymous
February 25, 2005 2:37:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Yesterday, I finally arrived at the Castle for the first time (yeah !)
(and as I badly need those scroll of charging I never met before (4 empty
magic markers in my bag !) that wand of wishing will definitely be a good
idea)

A few time wandering near the entrance was necessary to let my 4 baby
black dragon (polytrap two levels above :-) ) kill sharks and eels, then I
could put Perseus' boots and start floating and killing Xorn showing
through the walls.

After that, I open/close the drawbridge a few times (until it was
destroyed by some spell a titan cast) and then let my pets do most of the
dirty job in the first room (only one survived :-( ).

Now come the bad point and the question:
The Xorns I've killed in the walls droped item (at least 2 potions). I
would like to get them. Digging the castle walls did not seem to work. How
could I do ?
I think polymorphing into a Xorn would obviously do, is there any other
solution ?

(not that I really mind polymorphing into a Xorn: I have an empty wand of
polymorph and soon scrolls of charging and polypiling will without doubt
be an option I'll choose... Plus a few rings/amulets to eat)


And by the way, another question about artifacts weapons:
I'm playing a Monk, got Mjollnir, Vorpal, Orgresmasher and Giantslayer via
sacrifice. Went to basic in both hammer and long sword (and Grand master
in martial arts). I'm currently using Mjollnir (+3) as a main weapon and
Vorpy (+3 also) as a backup weapon to prevent J from whiffling. This seems
to be quite effective. Will it be a correct selection for Gehenom ? Or
should I try to get some more artifacts ?

And concerning polytraps, is there a way to refuse being polymorphed ?
Just like there's a way to refuse a wish by wishing nothing, thus not
breaking siwhless conduct, is it possible to polymorph into "same thing" ?
I accidentaly steped on a polytrap, polymorph myself into "monk" and "felt
like a new woman" but that apparently changed my stats and I was wondering
if it is possible to refuse polymorph.

Probably a frequent question, but I didn't found an answer: why is
strenght counted in such a bizarre way (1..17, 18/01..18/**, 19..25) ?
What's so special about strength and about having a STR of 18 ?

Also, I could not find how much you can carry. Weights of objects are
quite easy to find on any spoiler list, but what you can carry, I could
not find. I guess it depends on STR (becoming burdened at the same time as
weak), and probably on DEX (xan hurting your leg make you burdened).

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 2:37:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jym <moyen@loria.fr> writes:
> Now come the bad point and the question:
> The Xorns I've killed in the walls droped item (at least 2 potions). I
> would like to get them. Digging the castle walls did not seem to work. How
> could I do ?
> I think polymorphing into a Xorn would obviously do, is there any other
> solution ?

You can kick the objects free; this won't break potions (though it
possibly ought to. Hmm). Or zapping them with teleport will place them
somewhere accessible on the level, though you'll need to go and find
them.

> And by the way, another question about artifacts weapons:
> I'm playing a Monk, got Mjollnir, Vorpal, Orgresmasher and Giantslayer via
> sacrifice. Went to basic in both hammer and long sword (and Grand master
> in martial arts). I'm currently using Mjollnir (+3) as a main weapon and
> Vorpy (+3 also) as a backup weapon to prevent J from whiffling. This seems
> to be quite effective. Will it be a correct selection for Gehenom ? Or
> should I try to get some more artifacts ?

If you're going with weapons as a Monk, Mjollnir is a perfectly decent
choice; you'll probably want to enchant it up a little more, though.
Using Vorpy as a reserve against shock-resistant monsters seems
reasonable to me, though you could try just going with martial arts.

> And concerning polytraps, is there a way to refuse being polymorphed ?
> Just like there's a way to refuse a wish by wishing nothing, thus not
> breaking siwhless conduct, is it possible to polymorph into "same thing" ?
> I accidentaly steped on a polytrap, polymorph myself into "monk" and "felt
> like a new woman" but that apparently changed my stats and I was wondering
> if it is possible to refuse polymorph.

You can't keep your current form, no. But the fact that polytraps are
polymorphing you at all suggests you don't have magic resistance,
which is something you'll want to fix.

> Probably a frequent question, but I didn't found an answer: why is
> strenght counted in such a bizarre way (1..17, 18/01..18/**, 19..25) ?
> What's so special about strength and about having a STR of 18 ?

D&D relic.

> Also, I could not find how much you can carry. Weights of objects are
> quite easy to find on any spoiler list, but what you can carry, I could
> not find. I guess it depends on STR (becoming burdened at the same time as
> weak), and probably on DEX (xan hurting your leg make you burdened).

STR and CON. Wounded legs reduce carrying capacity as well as
dexterity, but there's no direct relationship. There's a formula in
Message-ID: <86r8g7ez7h.fsf@strackenz.spod-central.org> .

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "You boil it in sawdust: you salt it in glue: / You condense it with :
: locusts and tape: / Still keeping one principal object in view -- / :
: To preserve its symmetrical shape." [ Lewis Carroll, "THotS" ] :
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 3:24:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jym wrote:

> After that, I open/close the drawbridge a few times (until it was
> destroyed by some spell a titan cast) and then let my pets do most of
> the dirty job in the first room (only one survived :-( ).

It was probably a wand of striking someone zapped. Titans don't cast
spells that destroy the drawbridge.

> The Xorns I've killed in the walls droped item (at least 2 potions). I
> would like to get them. Digging the castle walls did not seem to
> work. How could I do ?

You have to kick them out. On other levels, digging would have worked,
but the Castle walls are non-diggable. When you do kick them out, do it
from the inside, for they will come loose and drop at your feet. From
the outside, that means they'll drop into the moat.

> Or should I try to get some more artifacts ?

Frost Brand is considered the best, I believe. The art2-343.txt spoiler,
however, advises "None" as the best artifact weapon for a monk.
Arguably, a neutral monk could use the Staff of Aesculapius (requiring a
wish for an artifact) to effect (I believe they can become proficient in
quarterstaff).

> I was wondering if it is possible to refuse polymorph.

I don't think so. The only way is not to step on the trap in the first
place.

> Probably a frequent question, but I didn't found an answer: why is
> strenght counted in such a bizarre way (1..17, 18/01..18/**, 19..25) ?
> What's so special about strength and about having a STR of 18 ?

Nothing special. It's a hold-over from the D&D game that NetHack and its
predecessors are loosely based upon.

> Also, I could not find how much you can carry. Weights of objects are
> quite easy to find on any spoiler list, but what you can carry, I
> could not find. I guess it depends on STR (becoming burdened at the
> same time as weak), and probably on DEX (xan hurting your leg make
> you burdened).

No. It depends on STR and CON.

See the (old, admitted) spoiler about stats on my website:


http://roguelikes.sauceforge.net/pub/nethack/spoilers/3...

Don't know whether all in that spoiler is still correct, but it will at
least give you an indication as to how stats work, including carrying
capacity.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
Related resources
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 5:05:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, Dylan O'Donnell wrote:

> Jym <moyen@loria.fr> writes:
> > Now come the bad point and the question:
> > The Xorns I've killed in the walls droped item (at least 2 potions). I
> > would like to get them. Digging the castle walls did not seem to work. How
> > could I do ?
> > I think polymorphing into a Xorn would obviously do, is there any other
> > solution ?
>
> You can kick the objects free; this won't break potions (though it
> possibly ought to. Hmm).

Okay, thanks.

> Or zapping them with teleport will place them
> somewhere accessible on the level, though you'll need to go and find
> them.

Well, the Castle level should soon be cleared of remaining monsters
(currently fighting in the throne room).

> > And by the way, another question about artifacts weapons:
> > I'm playing a Monk, got Mjollnir, Vorpal, Orgresmasher and Giantslayer via
> > sacrifice. Went to basic in both hammer and long sword (and Grand master
> > in martial arts). I'm currently using Mjollnir (+3) as a main weapon and
> > Vorpy (+3 also) as a backup weapon to prevent J from whiffling. This seems
> > to be quite effective. Will it be a correct selection for Gehenom ? Or
> > should I try to get some more artifacts ?
>
> If you're going with weapons as a Monk, Mjollnir is a perfectly decent
> choice; you'll probably want to enchant it up a little more, though.

Of course. Just waiting for those wished scorlls of charging to write more
enchant weapon...

> Using Vorpy as a reserve against shock-resistant monsters seems
> reasonable to me, though you could try just going with martial arts.

Well, currently Vorpy is mainly a backup against J. Killing them in a
single blow is something I won't let go...


[Boudewijn]
> Frost Brand is considered the best, I believe. The art2-343.txt spoiler,
> however, advises "None" as the best artifact weapon for a monk.
> Arguably, a neutral monk could use the Staff of Aesculapius (requiring a
> wish for an artifact) to effect (I believe they can become proficient in
> quarterstaff).

The Monk FAQ (by Kate Nepveu) state that even at Grand Master, martial
arts only do an average 10 dmage whereas a +7 Mjollnir at only basic give
around 20 damage. And experimentaly in this game, I certainly seems to
kill monsters faster with Mjollnir than with bare hands. Wishing for the
Staff will probably be a bit too late as there are already many artefacts
in my game (5). Monks can indeed go to basic with staffs but so can I with
both Mjollnir and Vorpy as I get one via sacrifice and another long sword
via sacrifice (Vorpy in a bone file).

> > And concerning polytraps, is there a way to refuse being polymorphed ?
> > Just like there's a way to refuse a wish by wishing nothing, thus not
> > breaking siwhless conduct, is it possible to polymorph into "same thing" ?
> > I accidentaly steped on a polytrap, polymorph myself into "monk" and "felt
> > like a new woman" but that apparently changed my stats and I was wondering
> > if it is possible to refuse polymorph.
>
> You can't keep your current form, no. But the fact that polytraps are
> polymorphing you at all suggests you don't have magic resistance,
> which is something you'll want to fix.

Of course. The eyes of the overlord will fix that. I haven't done the
Quest yet (did not took time to find the portal, plus I badly need those
scrolls of charging...)

> > Also, I could not find how much you can carry. Weights of objects are
> > quite easy to find on any spoiler list, but what you can carry, I could
> > not find. I guess it depends on STR (becoming burdened at the same time as
> > weak), and probably on DEX (xan hurting your leg make you burdened).
>
> STR and CON. Wounded legs reduce carrying capacity as well as
> dexterity, but there's no direct relationship. There's a formula in
> Message-ID: <86r8g7ez7h.fsf@strackenz.spod-central.org> .

Many thanks to both of you.

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 5:05:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

psmithnews@spod-central.org (Dylan O'Donnell) writes:

> Jym <moyen@loria.fr> writes:
> > Now come the bad point and the question:
> > The Xorns I've killed in the walls droped item (at least 2 potions). I
> > would like to get them. Digging the castle walls did not seem to work. How
> > could I do ?
> > I think polymorphing into a Xorn would obviously do, is there any other
> > solution ?
>
> You can kick the objects free; this won't break potions (though it
> possibly ought to. Hmm).

This actually works? I would never have thought that could do.
My imagination was that the Xorn somehow 'melts through' the
earth, and hence its posessions would stick within the wall.

> > Probably a frequent question, but I didn't found an answer: why is
> > strenght counted in such a bizarre way (1..17, 18/01..18/**, 19..25) ?
> > What's so special about strength and about having a STR of 18 ?
>
> D&D relic.

Actually, I think that nethack strays from the true path of AD&D
here, considering to-hit and damage boni. These are fixed from
Str 18/** on upwards, unlike (IIRC) in AD&D.

Best,
Jakob
February 25, 2005 10:00:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <Pine.LNX.4.51.0502251116450.21108@hagen.loria.fr>,
Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:

>And concerning polytraps, is there a way to refuse being polymorphed ?

No, you don't want to refuse being poly'd, you want to save your armor :-)
What you're suggesting would take away a big chunk of the value and
necessity of magic resistance.
February 25, 2005 10:05:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <Pine.LNX.4.51.0502251116450.21108@hagen.loria.fr>,
Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:

>Probably a frequent question, but I didn't found an answer: why is
>strenght counted in such a bizarre way (1..17, 18/01..18/**, 19..25) ?
>What's so special about strength and about having a STR of 18 ?

The strongest human strength is 18, the far right hand side of the bell
curve. But even the strongest humans have contests among themselves
performing feats of strength. It's a matter of debate as to whether the
percentage modifier should *also* be a normal distribution.

Over 19 Str is giant strength.

>Also, I could not find how much you can carry. Weights of objects are
>quite easy to find on any spoiler list, but what you can carry

I don't know a formula, but you can figure out the weights of things.
Pick up stuff till burdened, and drop gold pieces one at a time. From
there you should be able to compute your burden weight, and the
difference from stressed to burdened. I don't think the size of the
object makes a difference but I've never tried to lift a baluchitherum
as a giant or anything like that.

My elf has a couple of ice boxes he wishes he could carry full, though ;-)
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 12:30:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> Jym wrote:

> It was probably a wand of striking someone zapped. Titans don't cast
> spells that destroy the drawbridge.
>
> > The Xorns I've killed in the walls droped item (at least 2 potions). I
> > would like to get them. Digging the castle walls did not seem to
> > work. How could I do ?
>
> You have to kick them out. On other levels, digging would have worked,
> but the Castle walls are non-diggable. When you do kick them out, do it
> from the inside, for they will come loose and drop at your feet. From
> the outside, that means they'll drop into the moat.

That was two potions of extra healing. Definitely worth the kicks :-)

Cleaned the throne room, but my last pet dragon was killed by an Angel in
the process (and I was also lower on HP than I've been for a long time).

On the other hand, I will have no regret know to blessed genocide D's...

Finally got that wand of wishing. Now going upward for a bit of incubus
"dancing".

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 12:43:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, james wrote:

> In article <Pine.LNX.4.51.0502251116450.21108@hagen.loria.fr>,
> Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
>
> >And concerning polytraps, is there a way to refuse being polymorphed ?
>
> No, you don't want to refuse being poly'd, you want to save your armor :-)

In this precise case, yes (a blessed fireproof +4 robe is not something a
monk is willing to let go...)

But there is a "you never changed form" voluntary challenge, so there may
be cases where you really want not to change form.

> What you're suggesting would take away a big chunk of the value and
> necessity of magic resistance.

Well that, of course, will require polymorph control.

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 3:26:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jym <moyen@loria.fr> writes:
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, james wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.LNX.4.51.0502251116450.21108@hagen.loria.fr>,
> > Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
> >
> > >And concerning polytraps, is there a way to refuse being polymorphed ?
> >
> > No, you don't want to refuse being poly'd, you want to save your armor :-)
>
> In this precise case, yes (a blessed fireproof +4 robe is not something a
> monk is willing to let go...)
>
> But there is a "you never changed form" voluntary challenge, so there may
> be cases where you really want not to change form.

Note that polymorphing into a "new man" (or whatever you already were)
doesn't count as "changing form"; it's the same form, even if it's a
different instance of it.

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "You boil it in sawdust: you salt it in glue: / You condense it with :
: locusts and tape: / Still keeping one principal object in view -- / :
: To preserve its symmetrical shape." [ Lewis Carroll, "THotS" ] :
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 3:04:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jakob Creutzig wrote:
> psmithnews@spod-central.org (Dylan O'Donnell) writes:

>> D&D relic.

> Actually, I think that nethack strays from the true path of AD&D
> here, considering to-hit and damage boni. These are fixed from
> Str 18/** on upwards, unlike (IIRC) in AD&D.

Note that in the latest version (called D&D again), the 18/?? strengths
have been abolished. Just 18, 19, ..., 25 like all other stats.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 3:08:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jym wrote:

> But there is a "you never changed form" voluntary challenge, so there
> may be cases where you really want not to change form.

The game does *not* accommodate conduct players. Conducts are supposed
to be hard.

If you *really* want to avoid polymorph, and don't have magic resistance
yet, you should:

- stay away from levels where these traps may be generated;
- not quaff untested potions;

If you do go to the dangerous levels, you should:

- search with every move (not monkeyproof);
- be wary of traps when you see monsters that are out of depth;
- let your pet survive and walk in front of you all the time.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 3:22:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:
>Note that in the latest version (called D&D again), the 18/?? strengths
>have been abolished. Just 18, 19, ..., 25 like all other stats.

18, 19, 20, ..., 35, ..., 742, ...

(Though I confess I've yet to see one above 200 even in the Epic Level
Handbook or Deities And Demigods.)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.ht...
!