[s] shopkeepers services

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

According to Eva Myers's spoilers, shopkeepers in slash'em should be able
to perform some services such as identify or weaponwork. Yet, I do not
manage to do so. No command seems related to this and #chatting to them
only make them complain about shoplifter.

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 2005-03-09, Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
> According to Eva Myers's spoilers, shopkeepers in slash'em should be able
> to perform some services such as identify or weaponwork. Yet, I do not
> manage to do so. No command seems related to this and #chatting to them
> only make them complain about shoplifter.

Use the (p)ay command when you dont owe them anything.

--
Andrew D. Hilton
UPenn Phd Student

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 9 Mar 2005, Andrew D. Hilton wrote:

> On 2005-03-09, Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
> > According to Eva Myers's spoilers, shopkeepers in slash'em should be able
> > to perform some services such as identify or weaponwork. Yet, I do not
> > manage to do so. No command seems related to this and #chatting to them
> > only make them complain about shoplifter.
>
> Use the (p)ay command when you dont owe them anything.

Thanks.
Let's go for a round of fooproofing armor...

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

IMO the armor works for armor is WAYYYYY too expensive.

tiny k

 

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On 10 Mar 2005 16:38:25 -0800, also sprach "tiny k"
<kdlittle88@yahoo.com>:

>IMO the armor works for armor is WAYYYYY too expensive.

Well, sure it is. All the shopkeeper services are overpriced. That's
because otherwise, you'd have essentially unlimited ? of ID/EA/EW/etc.

The Black Market's overpriced too. But where else are you going to
find so much great stuff in one place?

--
Keiran

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Well, sure it is. All the shopkeeper services are overpriced

yeah but I am talking unrealistically overpriced. I could buy
artifacts for the costs of one upgrade.

tiny k

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Even at the current costs the use of credit cloning

Credit cloning? what is that?

 

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In message <1110611582.910303.144000@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, tiny
k <kdlittle88@yahoo.com> writes
>Well, sure it is. All the shopkeeper services are overpriced
>
>yeah but I am talking unrealistically overpriced. I could buy
>artifacts for the costs of one upgrade.
>

Even at the current costs the use of credit cloning and shop keeper
services is very powerful. At the least it makes all item identification
trivial in slash em'.
--
Leon Coles

 

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"tiny k" <kdlittle88@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Even at the current costs the use of credit cloning
>
>Credit cloning? what is that?

Drop valuable item in shop. Collect gold (or gain credit). Have your
pet remove it from the shop. Go outside and pick the item back up.
Rinse and repeat.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Martin Read wrote:
> "tiny k" <kdlittle88@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Credit cloning? what is that?
>
> Drop valuable item in shop. Collect gold (or gain credit). Have your
> pet remove it from the shop. Go outside and pick the item back up.
> Rinse and repeat.

And, as opposed to having pets freely steal items from shops, which is
simply debatable but an intentional feature, this is a clear bug.

A distracted shopkeeper may fail to notice a trained dog lifting an
item. It may be a stretch to make him fail the same dog doing rounds
into it takes every single item from his inventory, but still, it
doesn't have that bad a balance effect.

On the other hand, which shopkeeper would kindly buy an item off you if
it's the very same item that just got stolen from him? This is pretty
much a proof that you're either the thief or a very insolent fence.
Now, try to repeat the same trick 15 times. Doesn't sound extremely
plausible, does it?

Credit cloning is just a variant of this technique that uses the new
"credit" system that was coded to allow people with uncontrolled
teleportitis to shop safely; it just proved to be badly abusable later.

1KB

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Adam Borowski <kilobyte@mimuw.edu.pl> writes:

> Credit cloning is just a variant of this technique that uses the new
> "credit" system that was coded to allow people with uncontrolled
> teleportitis to shop safely; it just proved to be badly abusable later.

Well, I have to back up Kent in this respect; part of the
fun in nethack is to find exploits in the game. Of course,
exploits that are too bad in some sense should and will be
fixed in the next release. For credit cloning, I just note
that while it greatly increases the speed of shop robbery,
it does not yield a new quality of shoplifting IMHO.

Best,
Jakob

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Richard Bos wrote:

> in most versions (all?
> Who compiles with GOLDOBJ?) gold isn't even a proper object,

Speaking of which, what exactly is the purpose of GOLDOBJ, anyway?

--
Kevin Wayne

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Richard Bos wrote:

> in most versions (all?
> Who compiles with GOLDOBJ?) gold isn't even a proper object,

Speaking of which, what exactly is the purpose of GOLDOBJ, anyway?

--
Kevin Wayne

 

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Adam Borowski <kilobyte@mimuw.edu.pl> wrote:

> Martin Read wrote:
> > "tiny k" <kdlittle88@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>Credit cloning? what is that?
> >
> > Drop valuable item in shop. Collect gold (or gain credit). Have your
> > pet remove it from the shop. Go outside and pick the item back up.
> > Rinse and repeat.
>
> And, as opposed to having pets freely steal items from shops, which is
> simply debatable but an intentional feature, this is a clear bug.
>
> A distracted shopkeeper may fail to notice a trained dog lifting an
> item. It may be a stretch to make him fail the same dog doing rounds
> into it takes every single item from his inventory, but still, it
> doesn't have that bad a balance effect.
>
> On the other hand, which shopkeeper would kindly buy an item off you if
> it's the very same item that just got stolen from him? This is pretty
> much a proof that you're either the thief or a very insolent fence.
> Now, try to repeat the same trick 15 times. Doesn't sound extremely
> plausible, does it?
>
> Credit cloning is just a variant of this technique that uses the new
> "credit" system that was coded to allow people with uncontrolled
> teleportitis to shop safely; it just proved to be badly abusable later.

It's also inevitable, unless you make shopkeepers stop pets from
stealing, because even if you have them recognise objects that were
stolen from them, you can always drop (anonymous, fungible) money in the
shop, and have the dog repeatedly steal that. It works the same, just
slower. Since in most versions (all? Who compiles with GOLDOBJ?) gold
isn't even a proper object, and even if it is one coin coin is hard to
tell from another, you can't justify shopkeepers recognising "their own"
gold.

Richard

 

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On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Richard Bos wrote:

> Adam Borowski <kilobyte@mimuw.edu.pl> wrote:
>
> > Martin Read wrote:
> > > "tiny k" <kdlittle88@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>Credit cloning? what is that?
> > >
> > > Drop valuable item in shop. Collect gold (or gain credit). Have your
> > > pet remove it from the shop. Go outside and pick the item back up.
> > > Rinse and repeat.
> >
> > And, as opposed to having pets freely steal items from shops, which is
> > simply debatable but an intentional feature, this is a clear bug.
> >
> > A distracted shopkeeper may fail to notice a trained dog lifting an
> > item. It may be a stretch to make him fail the same dog doing rounds
> > into it takes every single item from his inventory, but still, it
> > doesn't have that bad a balance effect.
> >
> > On the other hand, which shopkeeper would kindly buy an item off you if
> > it's the very same item that just got stolen from him? This is pretty
> > much a proof that you're either the thief or a very insolent fence.
> > Now, try to repeat the same trick 15 times. Doesn't sound extremely
> > plausible, does it?
> >
> > Credit cloning is just a variant of this technique that uses the new
> > "credit" system that was coded to allow people with uncontrolled
> > teleportitis to shop safely; it just proved to be badly abusable later.
>
> It's also inevitable, unless you make shopkeepers stop pets from
> stealing, because even if you have them recognise objects that were
> stolen from them, you can always drop (anonymous, fungible) money in the
> shop, and have the dog repeatedly steal that. It works the same, just
> slower. Since in most versions (all? Who compiles with GOLDOBJ?) gold
> isn't even a proper object, and even if it is one coin coin is hard to
> tell from another, you can't justify shopkeepers recognising "their own"
> gold.

You could have shopkeeper picking up gold in their own shop. Other
monsters do pick up objects, shopkeepers could probably pick up only gold
and only in their shop. So that will still allow for shopping with
teleportitis but prevent credit cloning (without, of course, preventing
pet stealing).

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Richard Bos wrote:

>>[credit cloning]

> It's also inevitable, unless you make shopkeepers stop pets from
> stealing, because even if you have them recognise objects that were
> stolen from them, you can always drop (anonymous, fungible) money in the
> shop, and have the dog repeatedly steal that. It works the same, just
> slower. Since in most versions (all? Who compiles with GOLDOBJ?) gold
> isn't even a proper object, and even if it is one coin coin is hard to
> tell from another, you can't justify shopkeepers recognising "their own"
> gold.

"So, the gold this guy dropped on the floor and told me to keep suddenly
disappeared. And now, he tries to drop even more, for more credit?
Hmm... let's think. Are they any strings attached?"

It's simple. You can't tell apart two identical coins, but if a gold
pile suddenly is gone, it's something that is very easy to notice. Even
if the shopkeeper has no proof that it's _you_ who was the thief, you
are certainly involved.
So, the solution I propose is: either count the gold you dropped on the
shop's floor as yours until you actually use it to pay for something,
or, make the shopkeeper cancel your credit if the gold is gone from the
floor. After all, this is just checking if you still can pay -- any RL
shopkeeper would take a glance at the gold to see if it's still there.

The result: there is a limit on how much you can shortchange a
shopkeeper, and you still can steal-sell-steal but not repeat that
indefinitely.
Shopkeepers may be dumb, but not dumb enough to fall into the same trick
several times in a row.

1KB

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Adam Borowski wrote:
> Richard Bos wrote:

> Even if the shopkeeper has no proof that it's _you_ who was the
> thief, you are certainly involved.

Guilty until proven innocent? No way: shopkeepers are lawful in this
regard. If even they don't stick to the law, the Kops won't help them.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> Adam Borowski wrote:

>>Even if the shopkeeper has no proof that it's _you_ who was the
>>thief, you are certainly involved.

> Guilty until proven innocent? No way: shopkeepers are lawful in this
> regard. If even they don't stick to the law, the Kops won't help them.

If the gold you drop on the floor keeps mysteriously disappearing, any
shopkeeper with two brain cells would put the facts together and at
least refuse you service.

1KB

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Adam Borowski <kilobyte@mimuw.edu.pl> writes:

> Richard Bos wrote:
>
> >>[credit cloning]
>
> > It's also inevitable, unless you make shopkeepers stop pets from
> > stealing, because even if you have them recognise objects that were
> > stolen from them, you can always drop (anonymous, fungible) money in the
> > shop, and have the dog repeatedly steal that. It works the same, just
> > slower. Since in most versions (all? Who compiles with GOLDOBJ?) gold
> > isn't even a proper object, and even if it is one coin coin is hard to
> > tell from another, you can't justify shopkeepers recognising "their own"
> > gold.
>
> "So, the gold this guy dropped on the floor and told me to keep
> suddenly disappeared. And now, he tries to drop even more, for more
> credit? Hmm... let's think. Are they any strings attached?"

I drop some money since I have teleportitis. Reading a scroll
of create monster, a leprechaun appears, picks up the gold,
hits me, grabs some gold and makes its getaway. Groaning,
I drop some more gold to prevent the shop--keeper to get
angry. Pray tell, how's the shopkeeper to be enabled to tell
the difference between this and deliberate credit-cloning?

Best,
Jakob

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Kevin Wayne <killedbyafoo@yahoo.com>:
>Richard Bos wrote:
>>in most versions (all?
>>Who compiles with GOLDOBJ?) gold isn't even a proper object,
>Speaking of which, what exactly is the purpose of GOLDOBJ, anyway?

I hope it is simply to remove the artificial abstraction that is gold;
treat it like any other object.

I fear it will mean the introduction of different kinds of coins. Such
schemes in games are always tedious and add nothing.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Brieday, March.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting Kevin Wayne killedbyafoo@yahoo.com:

>> Speaking of which, what exactly is the purpose of GOLDOBJ, anyway?

> I hope it is simply to remove the artificial abstraction that is gold;
> treat it like any other object.

It is: have a look at the sources.

> I fear it will mean the introduction of different kinds of coins. Such
> schemes in games are always tedious and add nothing.

Currently, it does not. And given that the Dev Team has long since
abolished different types of keys, I don't think they'll introduce
different coinage.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Richard Bos wrote:

> Who compiles with GOLDOBJ?

I do. I like gold to be just another object. Besides, I like having it in
the $ slot, where it isn't otherwise. The downside, of course, is that
nymphs can steal it.

Raisse, killed by a gold golem

--
irina@valdyas.org LegoHack: http://www.valdyas.org/irina/nethack/
Status of Raisse (piously neutral): Level 8 HP 63(67) AC -3, fast.

 

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raisse@valdyas.org wrote:
[GOLDOBJ]
>I do. I like gold to be just another object. Besides, I like having it in
>the $ slot, where it isn't otherwise. The downside, of course, is that
>nymphs can steal it.

This sounds to me like a reason to always keep a gold piece in your
main inventory...
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk>:
>raisse@valdyas.org wrote:
>[GOLDOBJ]
>>I do. I like gold to be just another object. Besides, I like having it in
>>the $ slot, where it isn't otherwise. The downside, of course, is that
>>nymphs can steal it.
>This sounds to me like a reason to always keep a gold piece in your
>main inventory...

Except when playing whack-a-lep in leprechaun halls.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Brieday, March.

 

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"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:

> David Damerell wrote:
> > I fear it will mean the introduction of different kinds of coins. Such
> > schemes in games are always tedious and add nothing.
>
> Currently, it does not. And given that the Dev Team has long since
> abolished different types of keys, I don't think they'll introduce
> different coinage.

Perhaps not. And yet:

/* coins ... - so far, gold is all there is */

Note: "so far". It probably won't come to anything, but apparently there
were once plans to introduce more.

Richard