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Duel P3 Vs. AMD @ 1.33

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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 8, 2001 6:41:07 PM

I am in the mood (and my wife finally said ok) to buy a new Mobo and CPU. I really want a powerhouse to crunch video and other very CPU intensive tasks. The applications I use will take advantage of multiple CPUs.

I guess my question is to anybody who has experience is,

1) Are AMD's REALLY just as (par for par) stable as Intel.

2) Is the price difference (~200) worth the duel P3-1ghz over the AMD?

2a) How much faster would the P3 be?

Thanks for any insight you have!

More about : duel amd

Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 8, 2001 6:56:44 PM

<<<1) Are AMD's REALLY just as (par for par) stable as Intel.>>>
in my opinion no but i'm sure you hear otherwise

<<<2) Is the price difference (~200) worth the duel P3-1ghz over the AMD?>>>
maybe, it depends on if your appz will benefit greatly from 2 cpus and if 100% stability/compatability is really important.

<<<2a) How much faster would the P3 be?>>>
faster sometimes slower sometimes, again it depends on the app.

if i were you i would wait until northwood comes out and either get 1 or dual p4's. the p3 system you would buy wouldn't have a upgrade path.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 8, 2001 7:17:52 PM

>1) Are AMD's REALLY just as (par for par) stable as Intel.

I've run mine for days at a time with number-crunching apps maxing out the CPU with no problems. I haven't had it long enough (about 2 months) and I've been mucking around to much with it to make any real stability comparison though. If your uptime isn't measured in months, it's unstable :-)

>2) Is the price difference (~200) worth the duel P3-1ghz
>over the AMD?
>
>2a) How much faster would the P3 be?

I can only suggest that you try to find benchmarks for each processor. Also understand that, even for apps that can use SMP, you are not going to see 100% scaling.

That said, here is a <i>very</i> crude comparison...

Here is a <A HREF="http://www.linuxhardware.org/features/01/05/03/167228.s..." target="_new">link</A> to a comparison of a 1GHz PIII and a 1GHz TBird on <A HREF="http://www.povray.org/" target="_new">POV-Ray</A>.

The scores are:
PIII: 21
TBird: 28

Now come some HUGE assumptions/simplifications:

Assume the PIII scales perfectly:
Dual PIII: 42

Assume the TBird scales linearly with clockspeed:
1.33 GHz TBird: 37.2

This shows about an 11% advantage to the dual PIII.
But as I said, there is some huge speculation involved in both numbers.

My guess is that the perfect SMP scaling assumption on the dual PIII is a worse assumption then the perfect clockspeed scaling assumption on the TBird. Would it amount to the 11% difference? I have no idea.

Some other notes:
The benchmark was performed with CAS 2 SDRAM. Getting a DDR based TBird board might help a little.

If an upgrade path is important to you, the PIII has none. The AMD solution does.


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 8, 2001 8:32:42 PM

"1) Are AMD's REALLY just as (par for par) stable as Intel."

The cpu's: yes. no doubt whatsoever. The system ? Yes, but only if you pay attention to proper cooling,and a decent PSU. AMD systems tend to be more pickey about these than intel systems. But, to give you an idea.. Anandtech runs its webservers on AMD systems.. that should tell you something about their stability (and performance).

2) Is the price difference (~200) worth the duel P3-1ghz over the AMD?

Hard to tell.. for properly multithreaded apps, the dual P3 is likely faster than the amd setup.. by how much ? depends on the apps. it might be helpfull if you named the applications. And even then it depends how much $200 is worth to you.

Personally, I wouldnt go for a dual P3 setup.. its a dead end street. If you can wait a bit longer, a dual Palomino would be *exactly* what you are looking for.. If you cant wait and have money to burn, a P4 1.5 or 1.7 is probably also a better choice than a dual P3.. Especially for video processing where SSE2 might make a real difference.

Dual P3 dont really scale well.. Their architecture is far from ideal for multiprocessing. Most apps only gain about 30%-50% from the second cpu. The AMD 770(i think), anyway the SMP solution, looks very promising. Some beta tests I've seen report gains of close to, and even *beyond* 100%. (Dont ask me how a dual system could be more than twice as fast as a single cpu with the same clock.. I just read it somewhere. maybe the chipset is faster by itself, even in single cpu mode).. but thats all speculation. We'll have to wait and see).


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by bbaeyens on 05/08/01 04:41 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 8, 2001 9:46:02 PM

Thanks for the info, I was pretty excited about the DUEL AMD solution until I found out that the AMD solution was going to be server level only (found at 2cpu.com) and would cost upwards of $900 just for the mobo. Oh well... I really like the IDEA of 2 cpu's but it may not be practicle anymore (Duel p4's will only be workable for XEON procs).

Thanks again, I'm leaning towards the single AMD.

Do you have a timeframe on when the next
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 10, 2001 10:55:25 AM

Firstly Gkfisher be carefull who you listen to in here. If someone here recommends something make sure they actually use it. You wouldn't believe the crap I've heard in here that misleads alot of people. Most people simply hide behind a bias...be it Intel or Amd and attempt to mislead by posting irrelevant or more biased links. Basicaly the Dual Intel configuration is the only way to go for video. Especially if you are using Premiere or After Affects...(notice how nobody talks about software)? Both these applications are multi-threaded in i-code. That is the operating system can analyse 1 thread without having to wait for an answer from its sequencial thread.

1) Are AMD's REALLY just as (par for par) stable as Intel.

You can answer this question for your self if you take some time to look at the posts. The Amd problems out number the Intel issues by about 20 to 1. Regardless of wether its the cpu or chipset doesn't matter to the consumer...they just want a reliable machine. Also company like Pinnacle, Avid and Media 100 write alot of their code for the Intel instruction sets (primarily) so check the details of your capture card to determine any possible compatability issues or performance issues.

The cost difference is entirely up to you to consider...but next time you render a movie or if you have a real time affects card....boot up your cpu graphs (task manager in Windows) and watch them flutter between 95-100% while rendering (k...you got to test this on somebody else's dually). Duals kick but. I have two duallies at home (2xp2 450mhz) and (2xp3 733 mhz). I use premiere mainly for basic cutting and transitions and after affects for titling and the available plug-ins. I am a mechanical engineer but I do all our product demo's and some home video's too.

"Cock-a-doodle-do" is what I say to my girl when I wake her UP in the morning!!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 10, 2001 11:02:50 AM

Most of these people have never edited video. So your best bet is to post in the video editing forum where you'll get replies from power video users. If you seriously consider someone's post make sure you ask them some intense editing questions, otherwise ignore them. Or better still ring up some cable or free to air networks..."get some real answers". Good luck.

"Cock-a-doodle-do" is what I say to my girl when I wake her UP in the morning!!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 10, 2001 10:03:50 PM

I am in the same boat, and I am waiting untill the dual Athalons are available. The dual P3 is no slouch but they are only capable of using 160% of the 200% of the processors availability. From what I understand it is a limitation of the buss. From what has been reported, yet to be seen of course, the AMD buss will utilize all 200%. I do alot 3D rendering, and the 1333 was just posted on the Highend testcenter as the same as 2 P3 800's and only 2 seconds slower to render the same scene as dual p3 933's. If the Dual AMD does scale to 200% there will be a stampeed from 3D and video pros to the dual Athalon systems.
It seems that most of the incompatability that has been reported with the AMD processors is due to the fact that larege numbers of AMD processors are in self made machines. For cost cutting overclocking or whatever reason. Most manufacturers have ironed out the incompatabilities between components, drivers and whatnot.

Anim88tor
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 10, 2001 10:26:34 PM

Yep I can see it now. You'll be working on the final render and your hyped for it then the blue screen comes oh no it cant multithread. Then 7 years of work gone and you kill your self. Tough luck.

SPUDMUFFIN

<font color=red>Being Evil Is Good. Cause I Can Be A Prick And Get Away With It.</font color=red> :lol: 
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 10, 2001 11:09:27 PM

Thanks for all the advice... I am leaning towards going with an AMD & IWill KK266-R. I would love a duel AMD setup, but don't want to pay out the $800+ I'll need just for the dual AMD board.

If anybody else has any thoughts, please post. Thanks!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 10, 2001 11:14:00 PM

>I am leaning towards going with an AMD & IWill KK266-R.

I have a KK266
Make sure you flash the bios up to the latest revision.
I had some PCI bus throughput problems until I did that.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 11, 2001 2:58:48 AM

"The dual P3 is no slouch but they are only capable of using 160% of the 200% of the processors availability"

Well you can't complain about 200% and 160% isn't bad either. I don't know how your machine is configured but when I render I never get below 95% utilisation on both cpu's. No real animator sits in front of their machine while it renders, most real profesionals want viewport speed. If they continually render stills to sort out materials they turn off all their other objects. Therefore once again analysing geometry and motion is the name of the game, another thing duallies excel at, especially when the polygon count exceeds 6 figures.

If Amd does get there SMP situation sorted (when you think about spreading threads and sharing violations that may occur among common resources, smp is a difficult think to make work) it will still have to prove itself reliable, and as most people know the industry usually waits 6 months or a year before it upgrades to anything new. Therefore there is much to be proven before you can consider the AMD platform a real solution for CAD, 3D, video or server.

"It seems that most of the incompatability that has been reported with the AMD processors is due to the fact that larege numbers of AMD processors are in self made machines. For cost cutting overclocking or whatever reason"

Alot of people who build Amd's built plenty of Intels before without anywhere near the amount of problems they have now with Amd's. Yes of course you can build a working Amd setup, but Jesus couldn't they make it smoother sailing?

Anyhow gfisher, your best bet is to still ring up the cable and free to air networks and talk to some of their hardware engineers. Alot of people make posts to nurture there own false sense of self worth, so before you waste your money talk to real people (those actually employed to edit video) and get real answers (something that works fast and reliably, not riddled with problems) and make your own judgement. Good Luck.

"Cock-a-doodle-do" is what I say to my girl when I wake her UP in the morning!!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 11, 2001 9:07:31 AM

". Yes of course you can build a working Amd setup, but Jesus couldn't they make it smoother sailing? "

I wouldnt know how, really..I have setup about 4 AMD machines recently (all with KT133A boards of MSI), and I have not come across any issue to speak off.. okay,.. maybe one, with an old turtle beach montego audiocard under win2k, but that was easy to solve. Have you ever built a duron/atlhon machine ? IF not, how would you know ?


"Therefore there is much to be proven before you can consider the AMD platform a real solution for CAD, 3D, video or server."

True enough. although one has to admit that AMD has yet to produce a troublesome chipset. I'd be very warry to buy a VIA dual machine, wether it be with intel or amd cpu's however.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 11, 2001 3:58:32 PM

>Well you can't complain about 200% and 160% isn't bad either.

Huh?
He's saying that you <i>won't</i> get 200%

And 160% is pretty bad. Take a look at the SPEC Rate benchmarks to see how other SMP architectures scale.

The only dual PIII is a <A HREF="http://www.spec.org/osg/cpu2000/results/res2000q4/cpu20..." target="_new">Dell 420 Precision Workstation</A> with RDRAM. There is an <A HREF="http://www.spec.org/osg/cpu2000/results/res2000q4/cpu20..." target="_new">identical machine</A> (with only 1 cpu of course) in the single CPU results.

For comparison, here are two Alphas:
<A HREF="http://www.spec.org/osg/cpu2000/results/res2000q4/cpu20..." target="_new">AlphaServer ES40 Model 6/833, Single CPU</A>
<A HREF="http://www.spec.org/osg/cpu2000/results/res2001q1/cpu20..." target="_new">AlphaServer ES40 Model 6/833, Dual CPU</A>

These results include run times for each of the individual benchmarks that make up <A HREF="http://www.spec.org/osg/cpu2000/results/" target="_new">CFP2000</A>. On the dual CPU results, two sets of runs are started simultaneously. If a architecture scales perfectly, those runtimes will be identical to the single CPU scores where only a single run is started.

Here are results showing how much longer the two runs on a dual box take wrt a single run on a single box:

Benchmark PIII Alpha
168.wupwise 12.47% 0.38%
171.swim 89.51% 48.13%
172.mgrid 32.47% 19.00%
173.applu 36.98% 20.46%
177.mesa 4.60% -2.02%
178.galgel 45.42% -25.53%
179.art 78.38% 1.50%
183.equake 28.99% 0.71%
187.facerec 16.01% 8.25%
188.ammp 13.99% -1.55%
189.lucas 31.20% 17.52%
191.fma3d 16.86% 11.59%
200.sixtrack 0.48% -4.32%
301.apsi 16.87% 2.89%

Still think the PIII SMP scales well?
I am a little curiuos how the dual alpha actually was faster then the single on some marks. Any ideas?

This also shows how much SMP scaling depends on the app.
If you app has very low bandwidth utilization and largely (or completely) independent threads, you might get close to that 200%, similar to the sixtrack benchmark above.

>I don't know how your machine is configured but when I
>render I never get below 95% utilisation on both cpu's.

That doesn't neccesarily mean that you're getting good scaling. Time one of your "real animator" runs, then disable one of the CPU's. You can do that in Linux just by booting to a non-SMP kernel, not sure what you can do under ms os. Now time the same run again with just the single CPU and do the math.


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
May 11, 2001 4:39:14 PM

>> 1) Are AMD's REALLY just as (par for par) stable as Intel.

I don't really think there are any stability problems with the Athlon or T-Bird. The K6 though I would say has problems but your not going to go there anyways. The source of any problems with Athlons lie in the chipsets from Via. They tend to sacrifice extra stability for speed.

>>> 2) Is the price difference (~200) worth the duel P3-1ghz over the AMD?

Intel's greatest downfall. They only ever reduce prices when they are stopping support and something new is one the way.


2a) How much faster would the P3 be?

I think the question should probably be: How much faster would the Athlon be. But then again get yourself a P3 that has a hefty cache and you'll notice the difference. In my eyes the P3 Xeon 1MB cache is the best value for money.
There are reports of Athlons with 512KB of cache. I've seen adds on the Cnet auctions site, but I wonder how hard these are to come buy, as u don't here much about them in this forum.



I think it's down to a throw-up between two systems if you are really serious.
A dual P3 Xeon 1MB cache (if you want one right now), or
A dual Atlon ~1GHz with the AMD 76xMP series chipset, when it becomes available. (Which should be soon given Tom's report today)

I would also consider an ATI graphics card as the way to go for Amateur Video editing. You get some nice tools with the cards and they have the best video quality of the mainstream cards. Look at the Radeon All-In-Wonder 64MB. Unless of course u are going for something a bit more professional.

<font color=red>Why don't you ever see the headline "Psychic Wins Lottery"?</font color=red>
May 11, 2001 5:42:14 PM

Quote:
I don't know how your machine is configured but when I render I never get below 95% utilisation on both cpu's.

The other 5% of the time only accounts for the time when a CPU is waiting only for a device to raise an IRQ. If a CPU is waiting on the memory bus (or something else that doesn't raise an IRQ), the CPU still gets marked as busy, even though it's not getting anything done.

Work-done-per-unit-time (a.k.a. Benchmarks) is the only real measure of how well your CPUs are being utilized.

Kelledin

bash-2.04$ kill -9 1
init: Just what do you think you're doing, Dave?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 12, 2001 4:29:57 PM

hehehehe.....aaah you got to laugh, some poor guy wants to come here and ask about which computer he should buy. He is interested in video and tells us the cost difference to him is about $200. And look at the responses....we've got one slut running around the net gathering benchmarks and another who wants to blow money on a couple of xeons and then go buy an Ati card. Bwahahahahahahahaha........hehehehehehehehehehehe......ahahhahaha.......non of these bitches have ever cut video, wouldn't now the difference between cinepak or sorenson, a cross disolve or a page peel, ntsc or pal. Ahahahahahaha.....hehehehehehehe.....you can always spot the people who never use the software. Why does everyone think its all about render times? Do you really believe that a quicker render is more important to this guy than the ability to see his affects and transitions in real time? If he made a film that that lasted an hour (about 108000 frames) it would probably take him 20 times as long to decide on how he wants to cut it than the time it takes to render it. The only time you will ever sit motionless and wait for anything to render is if you can afford a render box. And if he has $20-$40k to spend he wouldn't be asking anyone questions in here. Dual xeons mated to an Ati card? God freakin help us all.
Let me tell you mules something. This guys hardrive and raid setup and his video card are alot more important to video than than his cpu dilema.
What I'd like to know is why companies keep producing multi-threaded software when they know that most of their users will be single Amd/Pentium or dual Pentium users? If the pentiums don't scale up so well why would they bother? Maybe you should mail your buullshiit to microsoft,kinetix, alias wavefront or Adobe? Show them your post and tell them your alot smarter than all their engineers and all their software developers, then try and convince the end users their stopwatches are all wrong and their cpu graphs are inverted. When they pick themselves up off the floor and give their faces a chance to stop acheing after laughing so hard they might scan in their butts and email them to you with a big "kiss this" sign on it as well.
Have you ever edited video ERGEORGE you silly bitch? Then fuuck off before the guy wastes his money just to find out he still can't get the job done. The funniest thing is I don't think gfisher even gives a crap, he hasn't bothered to reply to anything.

"Cock-a-doodle-do" is what I say to my girl when I wake her UP in the morning!!
May 12, 2001 5:00:23 PM

I've been following this post and you seem to make sense. I will not try to pretend I know anything about this at all for I have never used this type of software before. My interest lies in the fact my younger brother is currently taking classes at college to do this exact type of thing. So I am trying to gather as much information as possible to build him the best machine possible for this type of task for the least amount of money. What you say about raid setups and video cards makes a great deal of sense, as that is what I have already gathered up to this point. It appears that while Engeorge is comparing Rendering times you are saying that the viewport window is the app that one should pay more attention to. This makes sense as well, but what if both are of importance? Please forgive my ignorance in this matter, but one has to start somewhere. What would you suggest to a college student on a budget as the best cost effective solution for doing this type of work?

Finally, and at the risk of getting laughed off this thread, you mention render farms. My question is there any software out there that would allow you to render using distrubitive computing? Is this not feasable? for instance, say I have 6 computers all greater than 1 gig ( all single cpu macnines ) all tied together on a 10/100 lan. would there be anyway to utilize them all to do a rendering project? Or is this just not possible with the software that is available?

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 12, 2001 5:43:56 PM

Well hello Ncogneto. Thank god someone is actually interested in the real issue!! When gfisher talks about video I am assuming he means video shot with a camera, not animation. Its important to know what your brothers specialty is. If its animation then firewire in/out might suffice on a budget, just for overlays or blue screen for his animations. If he is cutting alot of footage and applying special affects he will want a capture card that will give him real time visuals. As most of the footage is already rendered by the camera (be it mini Dv, Hi-8 etc) you don't need to worry about render boxes or render farms (particularly if he's still a student). There aren't even too many professionals out there who would cut a feature length film everyday, most have the script writers or director in their ear so sometimes it can take days to cut it and less than 2 hours to render it. However animation is VERY different. The greatest thing about transitions and affects in real time is the fact that you dont have to render the movie to see the affects, thats why these cards sell and its a very very important feature if you want to create gripping video. If its animation then Cpu, graphics card and ram will be the major issues. If its footage then capture card and drive space/speed will be your biggest issues. We use to create 30-40 minute training video's for work on a Pentium 2 500Mhz. Our biggest concern was having analogue and digital inputs and outputs....hehehe. In Adobe Premier you have a slider in the timeline that will allow you to render as much or as little footage as you like even if you don't have a real time card. Its a bit of a pain with affects and transitions but it still served our purposes. Let me know more about your brothers situation and we'll come up with something. If its footage he's rendering do some research into the capture cards as the rest of your budget might revolve around this. Good luck.

"Cock-a-doodle-do" is what I say to my girl when I wake her UP in the morning!!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 12, 2001 5:53:38 PM

He asked whether he should go with a 1.33 GHz AMD or a dual PIII. My posts address that. And no, I've never "cut video". Look at my first post. I told him to find benchmarks for the software he wants to run. Anything after that is speculation & discussion.

And why do they still produce multithreaded software? Because, until recently, a dual PIII was definitly, no questions asked, the way to go for this stuff. It may not be now. And almost certainly won't be with the next clock step on the AMD side. Or the P4 even. And when dual Athlons & P4's come out multithreading will be important again.

And there is more to SMP then 2 CPUs. If you're really serious, then you go out and get a 4-way or better box. Even with the PIII's crappy scaling, a 4-way box will do very well, although you'd have to question the utility compared to the cost of a small render farm.

So, to question why software houses produce multithreaded apps is pretty ignorant in my view.

And if you think this guy should be more concerned with his harddrive & videocard, fine. I addressed the question asked. As you say, I've never "cut video", so I can't really speak to that.

And finally, can't you say anything without profanity and name calling. Maybe you should go back to playing with you imaginary friends.


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 12, 2001 6:12:12 PM

Yea, I guess I am a silly slut for gathering & posting benchmarks. After alll, nobody here is interested in objective facts. We should all just listen to tonestar. He is the man.

Oh wait, that's right. tonestar is a demonstrated liar & fraud. Maybe I'll be looking at those benchmarks anyway...


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 12, 2001 6:30:28 PM

Hello ergeorge!! Wakey wakey, hand off snakey!!
On page 1 I said:
"Basicaly the Dual Intel configuration is the only way to go for video. Especially if you are using Premiere or After Affects.."

On page 2 you said:
"And why do they still produce multithreaded software? Because, until recently, a dual PIII was definitly, no questions asked, the way to go for this stuff. It may not be now. And almost certainly won't be with the next clock step on the AMD side. Or the P4 even. And when dual Athlons & P4's come out multithreading will be important again."

Gkfisher price range extends to a single Amd or dual P3 setup. So I guess you agree with me then. So what on earth are you argueing about now? Nice to see you admit you don't know anything about video. You have grown as person today, even if it is only a little bit.

"Cock-a-doodle-do" is what I say to my girl when I wake her UP in the morning!!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 12, 2001 6:40:05 PM

You can't read your own post, can you?

I repeat, <i>until recently</i> there was no question that the dual PIII was the way to go. And again I quote <i>"It may not be now."</i>

Now, I see it as pretty much neck & neck. It comes down to specific applications & benchmarks. But the PIII is at the end of its line, He'll have a choice to upgrade to an even faster AMD chip in the future.

You need to work on your reading comprehension. Or are you deliberately mis-interpreting my post?

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 12, 2001 10:33:42 PM

ergeorge, thanks for saving me some typing.

On a side note.
It seems that there must be a problem with the theroy of natural selection. Shouldn't tonestar and spunk monger have stepped in front of busses by now?
Maybe they are in "assisted living" situations, you know where there mittens are pinned to there coats.

Anim88tor
May 12, 2001 10:35:25 PM

No he is not into shooting movies with a vcr he is learning 3d studio max and a few others ( they escape know but he will be over sometime today). So far he has a Gforce2 pro ( he does gaming as well) and two maxtor 7200's ( 2 meg cache) in a raid O array. Firewire may still be a bit faster but this is not to shabby. The raid array is using a modded promise 66 controller ( add one 100 ohm resitor and whalla) which performs really well. Doing a little research into doing somethig simular with his video card but still not sure on that. He currently has a one cpu setup ( AMD 1.2 gig) but duals maybe in his future. Dual p4's will certainly be out of his price range any time in the near future ( even with me doing it at cost) Dual p3's is a possibility but stuck at 1 gig for now. Dual athlons maybe a possibility also but from what I here at first the motherboards will be very high and geared more towards the server market. But, others are supposedly on the way. A dual athlon my give him a little more room to grow, not getting stuck at 1 gig, but agian he will be navigating uncharted waters here. So i take it there is no such program that would allow rendering to be distrubited across a network? this seems, in theory, to be something that could be done ( I think the whloe idea of distrubited computeing should be exploited much more) but does it exist?

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 12, 2001 10:43:01 PM

>It seems that there must be a problem with the theroy of natural selection.

Well, we don't know that they've reproduced (god forbid)! That's the only thing evolution is concerned with :-)

>Maybe they are in "assisted living situations

You mean like <A HREF="http://www.satirewire.com/features/siliconpines/acf.sht..." target="_new">Silicon Pines</A>? :smile:

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 12, 2001 10:43:27 PM

The price is looking more like $400. There have been a few prices leaked, like the U1 rack mount dual AMD for $2500 and the Boxx R1 starting at $3200. All very much in line with the Intell Duals. Maybe a little higher priced but also much newer.
I cant comprehend why the dual Athalon board cost nearly $1000 in Japan, maybe exchange rate and some novelty charges.

Also I am not shure if the increased band width of the P4 would be worth the extra cost, in terms of video editing.

Anim88tor
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 12, 2001 10:47:28 PM

Yes, there are programs that can distribute rendering over a cluster. I'm not familiar with them though, as I don't do that sort of thing.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 12, 2001 10:50:31 PM

Exactly...
May 12, 2001 11:08:09 PM

Now this is something that to me wouold seem to make sense.
distributing the rendering over a cluster of 6 computers should make rendering times quite a deal faster, even if they are only single cpu machines. Perhaps with one dual cpu machine to use the window in and it would be the best of both worlds correct?

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 13, 2001 4:14:46 AM

Hello Ncogeto!! Ok so if he doesn't deal to much with footage shot with a video camera don't bother spending money on a capture card. In fact the most he may ever need would be a simple firewire Input/Output card. Your hard drive situation sounds more than adequate and I assume he has 512Mb ram or more? For me personally stability is a huge issue, I run dual PIII 733Mhz and a 3Dlabs Vx1. Although this card is quite old now and I myself am looking at updating I still love it because even when I'm dealing with 80-150K polygons it is still is very quick. And other than the wildcat I have at work no other card I've had has been as stable. There's alot of information around that allows you to resolder a couple of resistors on a Geforce2 pro to turn it into a Quadro Pro.
See:http://www.geocities.com/tnaw_xtennis/G-Quadro-2.htm
I suggest however you keep searching for feedback regarding firmware and drivers on the modified card. Drivers are almost everything in 3D so don't take this situation too lightly.
Ok to render farms. Basically I have 2 duallies (2x PII 450 Mhz and 2x PIII 733Mhz). I run W2k and all the software is already contained in max: See the following for more information:
Four separate programs interact to accomplish network rendering. The following descriptions identify these programs and provide an overview of their use.

3dsmax.exe: This Job launcher is a 3DS MAX program. You launch a network rendering job in the Rendering or Video Post dialog.
manager.exe: When run, this application sets up one computer as a network manager. The Manager program manages communication with the rendering servers during a network rendering job. This can be set up on any machine in the network. In almost all network rendering scenarios you will only have a single manager running on the entire network.
server.exe: When run, this application sets up each computer to be used as a rendering server. The Server program sends its local IP address to the Manager which in turn registers the Server so it will be available for network rendering job assignment. When the Server receives a job from the network manager, it launches a local copy of 3DS MAX to perform the rendering. The Server then sends the completed frame to a target directory and begins rendering the next frame sent to it by the manager. The server shuts down the 3DS MAX process when it is no longer needed.
queueman.exe: This stand-alone program provides a Windows interface that lets you monitor and schedule network rendering. Since the Queue Manager is stand-alone, you can start it at any time from any computer in your network. The only requirement is that you establish a TCP/IP connection with the computer running manager.exe.
You can load Queue Manager on each rendering server and use it to monitor rendering progress locally. You can also connect with Queue Manager remotely using Windows NT Remote Access.
Even though the above addresses the rendering issue his number on concern will be viewport speed. In fact most professional animators spend all their money on the quickest single workstation. Viewport speed is what gets the work done. You can always render overnight when you don't require the immediate use of your pc. Also once your happy you can construct whats known as an edit list and give the job to a proffesional render house with a large farm of top end machines. They are sooo cheap these days too. See: http://www.3dlinks.com/services_rendering.cfm

Scripting and story boarding save lots and lots of time and effort. If he is at that level he may only infact be rendering small scenes and compositing them later. I don't know what level your brothers at but as time goes on he'll need a dual monitor setup as well (for manipulating objects in the Max hierachy and working in video post). When your looking for a graphics card/s think about this too. If you can get your hands on a cheap professional dual monitor card, grab it. Good luck.



"Cock-a-doodle-do" is what I say to my girl when I wake her UP in the morning!!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 13, 2001 4:46:13 AM

um, guys, quit being morons and Belittling each other and help him out he had a question, stick to the topic, and keep your dainty little emotions out of it, we dont care if what someone said rubbed you the wrong way,just stick to the topic and quit ranting about how you think your right and someone is wrong
May 13, 2001 4:54:22 AM

Thanks a bunch for the info it is exactly what I was looking for. He can render at colledge ( a small local colledge) but the schedule is tight having to sign up for time and all. This makes it a bit rough as he has a job as well. I am going to check into the quatro conversion and your points are one's that I was concerned about as far as the drivers go. However, these cards are geting down right cheap so what have I got to lose. Should make a decent card until something better comes along. So, correct me if I am wrong but from what I gather, a good solution in this case would be one machine ( his ) with the quatro ( mod) and a dual setup ( be it intel or AMD we will have to see). From this machine he can plug into my 10/100 network which has at any one time 5-6 (plus his machine) pc's all at or above 1 gig. With these he can use the programs you suggest and cut his render time down quite a bit. The important piece in the puzzle is his machine in which he will use the viewport. Is this correct?

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 13, 2001 8:22:13 AM

Yep!! That's pretty much it!! If he ever has problems moving or roating objects or entire scenes (with a high polygon count) then its time to either turn off objects in the scene (not always possible) or move up to a pro card.
If you can check the net auctions for a high end 3Dlabs/Elsa/Fire gl card. Often top animation houses get supplied these free for testing and promotion so they sell them off dirt cheap. If the budget stretches, two monitors make life alot easier too. Most people who use timelines and palletes spend approx. 30% of their time zooming around, opening and closing and moving palletes. It's nice that your brother has all this to work with however I strongly recommend he utilise all the smart methods for working, modelling, maping and animating. With all this rendering power at hand he may form some bad working habits. Anyhow best of luck to both of you.

"Cock-a-doodle-do" is what I say to my girl when I wake her UP in the morning!!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 13, 2001 10:51:16 AM

The amd is more stable than intel, and athlon's processor have a better floiting point, but in video editing intel is faster than amd.
The dual intel processor is faster all the times than the single amd processor.(you're talking about 2ghz of a p3 architechture).
But why don't you wait for the dual amd motherboard with ddr sdram?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 6:28:06 AM

To Ncogneto: Theres actually a post in the graphics card forum about the Geforce conversion. Worth checking out. These days alot of people are using renderers outside of max, I think a couple of them are called mental rays and renderman. You may want to check these out too. The 3D ring can be a superb way of tracking information. Or perhaps www.discreet.com may have something.

To anima88tor: You haven't contributed a thing to this post have you? You know why that is? Because you can't. Your login is anim88tor but you don't know shiit about it do you MF? At least you posted no usefull information, which is alot more credible than posting tons of garbage and propaganda like m_kelder. Maybe you should pop into his house one day when he's pumping his mum and join in?

To Gkfisher: Why in freakin hell establish a post if your never gonna come back to check it out?

"Cock-a-doodle-do" is what I say to my girl when I wake her UP in the morning!!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 7:32:43 AM

"posting tons of garbage and propaganda like m_kelder"

lol, not! If you remember the stance I took it was about a single computer to use for animation, with out rendering farms or computers at work to use, so I was right and I showed the many benchmarks to prove it. Everyone agreed and showed their personal results too. You need to stop being so quick to jump to conclusions my friend. And stop spreading your nastyness :) 

In this case you are right that a dual P3 1ghz setup would be the best to work on as I said in the other thread if someone was in this situation.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 8:34:44 AM

Last time you made a post you pretended to be an animator. Once exposed you admitted to being an "amateur". You have been quick to respond to this post which means you must have viewed this thread a few times. Why didn't you post something that might of helped Gkfisher or Ncogneto?

Because you couldn't. Because you don't know anything about animation. I still see your posts around maskerading as an animator. You freakin lying waanker.

If I ever get sick of mechanical engineering I might give animating ago. With fools and pretenders like you and anim88tor around I'd really kick aaassss. Make sure you stay good at shovelling cow manure, cos you'll never have any other kind of income. Does your mum make you wear a condom? You wouldn't want the dual role of being dad/brother now would you. Dem cows aints gonnas makes yous nuf money to bees feedin alyas eh?

"Cock-a-doodle-do" is what I say to my girl when I wake her UP in the morning!!
May 14, 2001 8:59:51 AM

Interesting how you immediately try to defame somebody as a fraud the moment they point out that you primarily post garbage.

I imagine you will now claim that I'm not the *NIX specialist that I claim to be, that I know nothing of UNIX, Linux, et al, that I'm a mere poseur.

You're not making yourself look good at all...

Kelledin

bash-2.04$ kill -9 1
init: Just what do you think you're doing, Dave?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 3:17:35 PM

LoL
It always cracks me up to see tonestar call somebody else a fraud. As if he had a leg to stand on.

As soon as somebody calls him on something he has to drop back to profanity & name calling. Reminds me of elementary school. It must be frustrating to go through life with sucha limited set of tools.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 15, 2001 1:07:44 AM

To kelledin: Both of your posts have been useless. Then again I don't have to tell you about the word "useless", I'm sure your boss does enough of that.

To ergeorge: You don't know crap about video or 3D. You tried to stick your butt in once again where it wasn't required and it got scorched...ooowww!!! . Your single greatest priorty seems to be advertising AMD but in this case you didn't get very far did you? Don't you ever feel sorry for the mules that might waste their money by listening to you? By the way hows your 486?...ahahaha......heheheheheheheh......bwahahahaha....you freakin moron!

"Cock-a-doodle-do" is what I say to my girl when I wake her UP in the morning!!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 15, 2001 2:39:49 AM

I would like to say something realy nasty, but your ignorance on any subject is much more voluminous and telling than any thing I could possibly come up with. The worst that I, or any one else could do to you is let you continue in your pathetic existance, where reality is just beyond your grasp.
Have a nice life and keep up the good work.
Anim88tor
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 15, 2001 2:45:21 AM

Um I think you need to chill, kelledin didn't say anything.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 15, 2001 3:43:23 AM

First off, I never made a post you pretended to be a professional animator, never. That is just more of your bullshit lies. I read this post when it was first made when it was about video editing. Yeah, I read this thread and waited for updates every 10 minutes so I could say something, dumbass. Only you would do something like that.

"If I ever get sick of mechanical engineering I might give animating ago. With fools and pretenders like you and anim88tor around I'd really kick aaassss. "

God that made me laugh. You need to know 0 about hardware to be an animator. You have no clue at all what it means f you think that way. It is an entirely different mind set from what you have. Anybody can read an article about good hardware for animation and then rant on forums like this to try and look good. You've already proven time and time again that your just an angry boy that thinks he the best in the world. Get off your high horse my friend, you've already fallen of it many times here but are too ignorant to admit that you have.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 15, 2001 4:50:18 AM

>You don't know crap about video or 3D.

Absolutely right. I think I've made that perfectly clear.

>You tried to stick your butt in once again where it wasn't
>required and it got scorched...ooowww!!!

Did it really? I hadn't noticed actually. Nobody but you has actually disputed my posts. And I'm not sure what you dispute, seems your more interested in making noise then making a point.

>Your single greatest priorty seems to be advertising AMD

My reccomendations were pretty balanced, hardly "advertising" either solution. In fact, my original, highly innacurate guestimate favored <i>your</i> preferred solution by about 11% I honestly don't know which is the better solution for this guy, I think the phrase I used was "neck and neck". He needs to find specific benchmarks for his situation. Can you point him to some?

>but in this case you didn't get very far did you?

Actually, the original poster suggested he was leaning towards AMD. But I don't take credit for that since I didn't make any reccomendation. And frankly, I don't care what he chooses. I just presented some ideas & facts for people to consider. He must have made up his own mind based on whatever evidence he's found.

So, let's get back to the facts tonestar.
What facts do you dispute about my posts?
Do you dispute the benchmarks? Why?
I'll toss out one reason for you. They are not benchmarks of the apps he is likely to be running (although POV-Ray is a ray-tracer). That's why I suggested he find more specific benchmarks.

What else?
And try to do it without shooting your mouth off.

And while you're at it, please explain why anyone should believe anything you say given your well documented record of outright lying & fraud on this forum and your incredibly immature behavior and language.


And BTW, since you asked:
My 486s are doing fine, although I haven't booted them up lately. Not much reason to since I have a bigger cluster to play with @ work. I may set one up as a firewall soon to keep out the riff-raff. Or maybe experiment with mosix.



In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
May 15, 2001 6:13:06 AM

tonestar you sure do like to prove you are first class a$$hole. Nice job.

I can speak from some experience here. I own a T-Bird 1.2 gig system (KT7-RAID 2 IBM 30 gig RAID-0), and a Dual CPU PIII 600 system (SCSI based). The SCSI system trounces the RAID hard drives hands down, even though the benchmarks say otherwise. No contest, video editing is better on the Dual CPU rig due to the SCSI's superior ability to handle many data requests at once.

Using Adobe Premiere 6.0 on both systems, the actual rendering of preview effects, and the encoding process itself is actually faster overall on the T-Bird setup. In theory, if the dual PIII rig scaled to 200% of it's single cpu potential it would feel about the same as the T-Bird, but no this is not the case. Especially when using plug-ins such as Hollywood FX, the T-Bird system renders the preview faster. Seems to me the Intel rig should be doing a better job, but nope.

I am neither pro AMD or pro Intel really, I do however think AMD is moving technology along faster than Intel at the moment.

Bottom line, for my money the T-Bird is the best buy. A dual T-Bird (or Athlon 4 as the case may be) will be a real screamer.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 15, 2001 1:10:13 PM

Wow...

Thanks for all the advice and interesting commentary :) . Based on the discussion and some additional research I've managed. I've decided to stay away from the P3's mostly because the price is too high (at least $550 w/ mobo) for a setup that may only draw 75-80% from each CPU. I'm going to wait (IT'S NOT EASY) until the fall and see what the duel AMD rig will cost Vs. the next P4. If the duel AMD mobo is around $400, I will pickup one CPU at first and add a second later. My budget for this project isn't as large as I would hope, but certainly excludes any possibility of duel p4's.

Anyway, the main purpose of my new flagship PC will be for your average tech savvy home user. A few games, a lot of VB/ASP coding, and then video encoding (Adobe Premiere 6.0, Misc. Digital video tools) for home video's, DVD mastering, etc.... no, not that kind of home video :) . Many times I'll be burning a CD in the background and waiting anxiously for my Render to complete, while catching up on my coding projects and surfing the web. I do have 2 monitors tied to a RADEON duel display. Thus I thought two CPU's would be nice (b/c of the multiple apps & Video stuff).

So... to get back to my original post (of which I'm sorry I havn't been more active in this thread, though I assure you I've been reading every post)...

Having rejected the P3 setup... the AMD 1.33 was the next best alternative. Compatibility. From what I've found it's not an issue of AMD being less compatible, it's an issue with the VIA southbridge chipset having a few minor exposures. I've done the hardware that's 99% compatible before and it seems like that 1% can really bite you. My wife needs a new PC as well (we don't share PC's well), and for her I will definitely go with an AMD or DURON solution. For web surfing, Hearts, and Hallmark she'll be fine. For my techie interests I may be doing enough data intensive stuff that would cause hiccups... who knows, but I don't want to find out. So, thanks to many of you, I'll be waiting a few months to see if I have any better options. I have hopes that the new AMD 760MP Mobo's will be absent from the VIA southbridge, if so this is looking really nice. Otherwise, I'll look at the most affordable Intel solution.

So, I've got a few months to kill and money that's burning a hole in my pocket. I think I'll head over to E*trade and pickup some AMD stock. Why? Two years ago I would have never considered AMD, now (Athlon 4) I just might.

Any other thoughts?!

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by gkfisher1 on 05/15/01 09:20 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 15, 2001 2:21:10 PM

>The SCSI system trounces the RAID hard drives hands down,
>even though the benchmarks say otherwise.

I'm not suprised.

The built-in software based raid is a relatively poor performer.

You can get hardware based IDE RAID (3ware) and get a nice performance boost wrt the software based onboard stuff. It still probably won't be as good as SCSI at random accesses, but the throughput gets up there. storagereview.com has some recent benchmarks.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 15, 2001 2:36:50 PM

>Any other thoughts?!

If you've decided to go with AMD, and you really can't wait to spend that money....

You might consider getting an AMD system now. From what I've heard (but check yourself) the current TBirds will work in the 760MP. So you would only have to replace the motherboard, a loss of about $130. You might make some of that back on eBay.

Bear in mind that the early 760MP boards may not come with IDE controllers. So you might want to go SCSI now, or be aware that you may need to get an IDE controller card(s)when you upgrade.

Also, the 760MP will be a DDR board. So you'll need to go with that now if you want to preserve your RAM investment. Although, considering the price premium for DDR memory & MB right now, that could be a wash by the time the 760MP is out for a few months.



In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 15, 2001 2:59:42 PM

That's interesting... I was pretty certain that current tbirds would NOT work in the 760MP mobo's. If in fact they will work I think you suggestion makes a lot of sense. I can drop the old mobo in the system I build my wife down the road.

Does anybody know for certain on this issue? I will indeed check this out.

I have a highpoint IDE controller that I can use and while I would love to go SCSI, I don't know if it's worth the $$. 90% of the time it's either CPU or Graphics Card that I'm waiting on.

As far as the DDRAM goes, $89.99 for 256mb on the CRUCIAL web site (this is pretty good ram from what I read). So, not the end of the world.

Thanks again!
!