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[S] drain resistance assistance please

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Anonymous
March 23, 2005 2:00:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

My Slashem characters that survive for some time run into great trouble
with level-draining monsters. Level-draining seems to be a much greater
issue in Slashem than in vanilla Nethack. I would be most thankful for
some general tips on how you handle this.

My most recent decent character was a monk, so I was not going to wield
the available Excalibur, which I would otherwise think a good solution
for early lawful characters.

I know there are amulets of drain resistance, but I've very seldom
seen+identified one until I need it.

/Kristoffer

--
This cookie has a scrap of paper inside. It reads:
Gurl fnl gung gur ArgUnpx tbqf trarenyyl jrypbzr lbhe fnpevsvprf.
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 2:00:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack,misc.misc (More info?)

Andrew D. Hilton wrote:

> An no, eating an amulet of drain resistance doesnt do anything
useful.

Piffle.

At a minimum, it should make it safe for you to levitate over sinks.

xanthian.
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 5:09:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 2005-03-23, Kristoffer Björkman <kristoffer.bjorkman@frontnet.org> wrote:
>
> My Slashem characters that survive for some time run into great trouble
> with level-draining monsters. Level-draining seems to be a much greater
> issue in Slashem than in vanilla Nethack. I would be most thankful for
> some general tips on how you handle this.
>
> My most recent decent character was a monk, so I was not going to wield
> the available Excalibur, which I would otherwise think a good solution
> for early lawful characters.
>
> I know there are amulets of drain resistance, but I've very seldom
> seen+identified one until I need it.


You can go with deep dragon scale mail-- i.e. DDSM, CoMR and "oR as your
'important gear'..

Other solutions might include
- choosing vampire or lycanthrope as your race
- getting infected with lycanthropy (if you have poly ctl, including
lvl 9+ doppelgangers, you can decline the change-- if you are
a doppelganger and arent 9+, you can change back with #youpoly)
- If its happening from things other than a wand of drain levels (ie vampire
bites), you might try to make sure you have MC3 armor..

those are about all the ideas I have..
--
Andrew D. Hilton
UPenn Phd Student
Related resources
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 6:41:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Andrew D. Hilton wrote:

> On 2005-03-23, Kristoffer Björkman <kristoffer.bjorkman@frontnet.org> wrote:
> >
> > My Slashem characters that survive for some time run into great trouble
> > with level-draining monsters. Level-draining seems to be a much greater
> > issue in Slashem than in vanilla Nethack. I would be most thankful for
> > some general tips on how you handle this.
> >
> > My most recent decent character was a monk, so I was not going to wield
> > the available Excalibur, which I would otherwise think a good solution
> > for early lawful characters.
> >
> > I know there are amulets of drain resistance, but I've very seldom
> > seen+identified one until I need it.
>
>
> You can go with deep dragon scale mail-- i.e. DDSM, CoMR and "oR as your
> 'important gear'.. ^
|
Bad idea for slash'em monks
(well, not necessarly bad but far worst than for nethack monks)

> Other solutions might include

> - getting infected with lycanthropy (if you have poly ctl, including
> lvl 9+ doppelgangers, you can decline the change-- if you are
> a doppelganger and arent 9+, you can change back with #youpoly)

That's how I always gain level drain resistance ! That seems to work with
any kind of werecreature, by the way (lycanthropy is, I would say,
specific to werewolfs).

> - If its happening from things other than a wand of drain levels (ie vampire
> bites), you might try to make sure you have MC3 armor..
>
> those are about all the ideas I have..

Some artefacts provide drain resistance also (and not only the Staff).
Are amulet of drain resistance eatable ? (I mean, do they provide the
intrinsic when eaten ?)

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 6:41:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 2005-03-23, Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
>> You can go with deep dragon scale mail-- i.e. DDSM, CoMR and "oR as your
>> 'important gear'.. ^
> |
> Bad idea for slash'em monks
> (well, not necessarly bad but far worst than for nethack monks)
>

In general yes, but people can make those decisions- for example,
if I had a monk and were faced with some monster who had a wand of drain
levels with many others between us (say guild of disgruntled adventurers),
Id go with DDSM long enough to deal with that problem, then go back to
monkable armor..

>> Other solutions might include
>
>> - getting infected with lycanthropy (if you have poly ctl, including
>> lvl 9+ doppelgangers, you can decline the change-- if you are
>> a doppelganger and arent 9+, you can change back with #youpoly)
>
> That's how I always gain level drain resistance ! That seems to work with
> any kind of werecreature, by the way (lycanthropy is, I would say,
> specific to werewolfs).
>

Quoth AD&D Monster Manual (I know, nethack isnt AD&D...):
The lycanthrope takes on the characteristics of some type of carnivorous
animal (referred to hereafter as the "animal"). This can be any predator
between the size of a small dog and a large bear.

Also note that the slashem source code makes reference to lycanthropes
in comments and code in ways that suggest the term covers all were things.


While the word may have origins in werewolfism, Im pretty sure that
it can generally be applied to any were creature.

>
> Some artefacts provide drain resistance also (and not only the Staff).
> Are amulet of drain resistance eatable ? (I mean, do they provide the
> intrinsic when eaten ?)

Common misconception- the Staff does NOT confer drain resistance.

Stormbringer and Excalibur, OTOH do.
An no, eating an amulet of drain resistance doesnt do anything useful.

--
Andrew D. Hilton
UPenn Phd Student
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 6:41:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Andrew D. Hilton" <adhilton@seas.upenn.edu> writes:
> On 2005-03-23, Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
> >
> > Some artefacts provide drain resistance also (and not only the Staff).
>
> Common misconception- the Staff does NOT confer drain resistance.

Which is a point of difference from vanilla, presumably the source of
the misconception.

> Stormbringer and Excalibur, OTOH do.

As does the Hand of Vecna, but wielding that makes rather less sense.

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "Nothing matters very much, and few things matter at all." :
: -- A.J. Balfour :
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 7:29:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In news:<Pine.LNX.4.51.0503231537550.23975@hagen.loria.fr>, Jym
<moyen@loria.fr> says...
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Andrew D. Hilton wrote:
> > On 2005-03-23, Kristoffer Björkman <kristoffer.bjorkman@frontnet.org> wrote:
> > > My Slashem characters that survive for some time run into great trouble
> > > with level-draining monsters. Level-draining seems to be a much greater
> > > issue in Slashem than in vanilla Nethack. I would be most thankful for
> > > some general tips on how you handle this.
> > > My most recent decent character was a monk, so I was not going to wield
> > > the available Excalibur, which I would otherwise think a good solution
> > > for early lawful characters.
> > > I know there are amulets of drain resistance, but I've very seldom
> > > seen+identified one until I need it.
[...]
> > - getting infected with lycanthropy (if you have poly ctl, including
> > lvl 9+ doppelgangers, you can decline the change-- if you are
> > a doppelganger and arent 9+, you can change back with #youpoly)
> That's how I always gain level drain resistance ! That seems to work with
> any kind of werecreature, by the way
[...]

Hmm. So it seems this is something people do? Would never have occurred
to me if you had not told me. Lycanthropy without polymorph control (for
all non-dopplegangers) seems very hasslesome, so I guess I'll have to
get polymorph control first (another not-automatic thing for a
vegetarian monk (unless Slashem gives this intrinsic for monks after a
certain level?)). Isn't there a great probability of your god curing
your lycanthropy when you pray?

> > - If its happening from things other than a wand of drain levels
> > (ie vampire bites), you might try to make sure you have MC3 armor..

Another good point, though the wands are the major problem. MC3 armour
acquiring is an automatic reflex even since vanilla Nethack.

> Some artefacts provide drain resistance also (and not only the Staff).
> Are amulet of drain resistance eatable ? (I mean, do they provide the
> intrinsic when eaten ?)

I was hoping to find a more 'general' solution than depending on certain
artifacts that might not have appeared at the necessary stage of the
game.

/Kristoffer

--
This cookie has a scrap of paper inside. It reads:
N evat bs pbasyvpg vf n onq guvat vs gurer vf n ahefr va gur ebbz.
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 8:05:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Andrew D. Hilton wrote:

> On 2005-03-23, Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
> >> You can go with deep dragon scale mail-- i.e. DDSM, CoMR and "oR as your
> >> 'important gear'.. ^
> > |
> > Bad idea for slash'em monks
> > (well, not necessarly bad but far worst than for nethack monks)
> >
>
> In general yes, but people can make those decisions- for example,
> if I had a monk and were faced with some monster who had a wand of drain
> levels with many others between us (say guild of disgruntled adventurers),
> Id go with DDSM long enough to deal with that problem, then go back to
> monkable armor..

Yes, it's locally doable if you know you'll be facing a bunch of draining
monsters (eg Chaotic quest). It's far less doable as a long term issue if
wandering in the dungeon and bumping into draining monsters from time to
time.
Well, I guess that have to be put under "preparation for the encounter"...

> >> Other solutions might include
> >
> >> - getting infected with lycanthropy (if you have poly ctl, including
> >> lvl 9+ doppelgangers, you can decline the change-- if you are
> >> a doppelganger and arent 9+, you can change back with #youpoly)
> >
> > That's how I always gain level drain resistance ! That seems to work with
> > any kind of werecreature, by the way (lycanthropy is, I would say,
> > specific to werewolfs).
> >
>
> Quoth AD&D Monster Manual (I know, nethack isnt AD&D...):
> The lycanthrope takes on the characteristics of some type of carnivorous
> animal (referred to hereafter as the "animal"). This can be any predator
> between the size of a small dog and a large bear.
>
> While the word may have origins in werewolfism, Im pretty sure that
> it can generally be applied to any were creature.

Well, I was rather thinking about the more or less medical term. After
double checking my (french) dictionnary, it appears that lycanthropy apply
for any kind of creature.

> > Some artefacts provide drain resistance also (and not only the Staff).
> > Are amulet of drain resistance eatable ? (I mean, do they provide the
> > intrinsic when eaten ?)
>
> Common misconception- the Staff does NOT confer drain resistance.

Woops. Right. Didn't have the spoilers at hand when writing that
message...
What I was meaning is that there is slash'em only artefact that does
provide drain resistance.
And it is (almost) garanteed to be generated (hand of Vecna). But you may
need level drain resistance before getting to it...

> An no, eating an amulet of drain resistance doesnt do anything useful.

Thanks.

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 8:27:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In news:<Pine.LNX.4.51.0503231659270.28792@hagen.loria.fr>, Jym
<moyen@loria.fr> says...
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Andrew D. Hilton wrote:
> > On 2005-03-23, Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
[...]
> > > That's how I always gain level drain resistance ! That seems to work with
> > > any kind of werecreature, by the way (lycanthropy is, I would say,
> > > specific to werewolfs).
> > Quoth AD&D Monster Manual (I know, nethack isnt AD&D...):
> > The lycanthrope takes on the characteristics of some type of carnivorous
> > animal (referred to hereafter as the "animal"). This can be any predator
> > between the size of a small dog and a large bear.
> > While the word may have origins in werewolfism, Im pretty sure that
> > it can generally be applied to any were creature.
> Well, I was rather thinking about the more or less medical term. After
> double checking my (french) dictionnary, it appears that lycanthropy apply
> for any kind of creature.

The 'lycan' part comes from the (old?) greek word for wolf.

But get the full story from wikipedia, and you'll both feel right:
"[...] Lycanthropy is the ability or power of a human being to undergo
transformation into a wolf. The term comes from ancient Greek
lykanthropos: lykos ("wolf") + anthropos ("man"). The word lycanthropy
is often used generically for any transformation of a human into animal
form, though the precise term for that is technically therianthropy."

So basically..
* If you want to snob around or educate your fellow beings, use
'therianthropy' (for general human-animal form changing)
* If you want to be understood by most people but perhaps not as
technically correct, use 'lycanthropy' (even for non-wolf changing)

I'm so happy that I learnt a new word so I'll be using therianthropy
from now on. Unless I specifically want to indicate the wolf-variety of
course.

Wikipedia references for your convenience:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycanthropy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therianthropy

(obligatory note to state that there doesn't have to be a single
definitive objective 'right' about anything in any language and that
wikipedia is only as good as the people who write the texts there)

/Kristoffer

--
This cookie has a scrap of paper inside. It reads:
Or pnershy! Gur Jvmneq znl cyna na nzohfu!
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 9:33:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kristoffer Björkman wrote:

> The 'lycan' part comes from the (old?) greek word for wolf.

Almost, but not really, correct. The "lyc" part comes form the Greek
word for wolf. The "anthrope" part comes from the Greek for human. See
your own explanation below...

> But get the full story from wikipedia, and you'll both feel right:
> "[...] Lycanthropy is the ability or power of a human being to undergo
> transformation into a wolf. The term comes from ancient Greek
> lykanthropos: lykos ("wolf") + anthropos ("man"). The word lycanthropy
> is often used generically for any transformation of a human into
> animal form, though the precise term for that is technically
> therianthropy."

:-)

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 10:51:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kristoffer Björkman wrote:
> In news:<Pine.LNX.4.51.0503231537550.23975@hagen.loria.fr>, Jym
> <moyen@loria.fr> says...

>>> - getting infected with lycanthropy (if you have poly ctl, including
>>> lvl 9+ doppelgangers, you can decline the change-- if you are
>>> a doppelganger and arent 9+, you can change back with #youpoly)
>>
>>That's how I always gain level drain resistance ! That seems to work with
>>any kind of werecreature, by the way
>
> [...]
>
> Hmm. So it seems this is something people do? Would never have occurred
> to me if you had not told me. Lycanthropy without polymorph control (for
> all non-dopplegangers) seems very hasslesome, so I guess I'll have to
> get polymorph control first (another not-automatic thing for a
> vegetarian monk (unless Slashem gives this intrinsic for monks after a
> certain level?)). Isn't there a great probability of your god curing
> your lycanthropy when you pray?

Sure. You just shouldn't pray during that period. Being lycanthropic
for a long time is not useful anyway, because of the limited carrying
capacity of werecreatures in wereform.

If you can polymorph and have not genocided L, this is a good choice to
make yourself level-drain resistant. They have only slightly smaller
carrying capacity than a character at strength 18+.

>>> - If its happening from things other than a wand of drain levels
>>> (ie vampire bites), you might try to make sure you have MC3 armor..
>
>
> Another good point, though the wands are the major problem. MC3 armour
> acquiring is an automatic reflex even since vanilla Nethack.
>
>
>>Some artefacts provide drain resistance also (and not only the Staff).
>>Are amulet of drain resistance eatable ? (I mean, do they provide the
>>intrinsic when eaten ?)
>
>
> I was hoping to find a more 'general' solution than depending on certain
> artifacts that might not have appeared at the necessary stage of the
> game.

The general solution is deep dragon scale mail or an amulet of drain
resistance. For a lawful monk, a good solution is to get Excalibur,
which can be wielded in one move, this way avoiding major damage from
draining - you can always easily get back the first level drained. Of
course, Excalibur should be enchanted to +7 to allow decent damage while
your monk is not bare-handed. For a neutral monk, this is less
agreeable, first because he needs a wish to get Excalibur, second
because he will get blasted each time he wields it. Here my recipe
would be to have both an amulet of reflection and one of draining and to
have the hand of Vecna, to wear the amulet of reflection most of the
time, to wield the hand (uncurse it before) once you get zapped by a
wand of draining, and to retreat until you can safely switch to the
amulet of draining. This is not a good strategy for the guild of
disgruntled adventurers level, because without reflection, you will be
hit by all ray wands, including lightning which may explode your stuff.
I have not experimented with this, but I would probably wield the hand
of Vecna, wear the amulet of reflection and try to kick monsters - in
the real world, a Shaolin monk should be able to do as much damage (more
in fact) in martial arts with his feet as with his hands. I don't
however know whether this works in slashem...

--
Klaus Kassner
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 1:28:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 23 Mar 2005 15:35:21 +0000, psmithnews@spod-central.org (Dylan
O'Donnell) wrote:

>"Andrew D. Hilton" <adhilton@seas.upenn.edu> writes:
>> On 2005-03-23, Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
>> >
>> > Some artefacts provide drain resistance also (and not only the Staff).
>>
>> Common misconception- the Staff does NOT confer drain resistance.
>
>Which is a point of difference from vanilla, presumably the source of
>the misconception.
>
The other possible source is the description of the Staff in Slash'Em,
which still mentions drain resistance, unless this has been fixed in
the past few months.
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 1:51:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:09:30 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew D. Hilton"
<adhilton@seas.upenn.edu> wrote:

>On 2005-03-23, Kristoffer Björkman <kristoffer.bjorkman@frontnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> My Slashem characters that survive for some time run into great trouble
>> with level-draining monsters. Level-draining seems to be a much greater
>> issue in Slashem than in vanilla Nethack. I would be most thankful for
>> some general tips on how you handle this.
>
>You can go with deep dragon scale mail-- i.e. DDSM, CoMR and "oR as your
>'important gear'..
>
>Other solutions might include
> - choosing vampire or lycanthrope as your race
> - getting infected with lycanthropy (if you have poly ctl, including
> lvl 9+ doppelgangers, you can decline the change-- if you are
> a doppelganger and arent 9+, you can change back with #youpoly)
> - If its happening from things other than a wand of drain levels (ie vampire
> bites), you might try to make sure you have MC3 armor..
>
>those are about all the ideas I have..

I haven't played huge amounts of Slashem, but I did ascend a healer
recently. Vampire-type draining was never a problem, but monsters
with wands of draining were terribly annoying. On the other hand,
levels in Slashem are relatively easy to gain, and by the time you're
powerful enough to have a choice of drain-resistance methods, even
four or five lost levels are very unlikely to get you killed.

It's not as foolproof as some of the other proposed solutions, but
maybe 70-80% of the time a wand of death is an effective counter to a
wand of draining, and using this method frees up an amulet or armor
slot for something like flying, displacement, or (in my case) life
saving.

Chris
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 4:14:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Klaus Kassner wrote:
> [fighting when wielding a non-weapon object]
> in the real world, a Shaolin monk should be able to do as much damage
> (more in fact) in martial arts with his feet as with his hands. I
> don't however know whether this works in slashem...

<rant>
"In the real world"...
Well, while martial arts gives you an _enormous_ advantage in a fist
fight, and if you're skilled you can stand against an unskilled thug
with a knife, you have about _zero_ chances if you face someone who's
wielding a real weapon and knows something about it.

I've always been annoyed by movies where the "good" guy has a helicopter
gun in each hand and a truck full of grossly oversized weapons, but
still decides to fight the bad guy with fists.
</rant>

Having but a 7 Kyu in Shotokan Karate (it goes _downwards_: unranked, 9
kyu, 8kyu, ..., so I'm a beginner. It also happened when I was 12-13
years old and I wouldn't be able to do the simplest technique right
today.), I can tell you that while leg techniques look great, they are
too slow to be of much use. Also, even though they give you more force,
they target parts of human body which are much more resistant to damage.

It takes very little force to do damage when punching someone in the
solar plexus or the throat. On the other hand, the hip is the body part
you put forward when you're about to be hit by a car you can't avoid.
Going for the genitals is pointless as the opponent can do a minute
movement to take your blow on the hip.

Some of the leg techniques are:
* the Hollywood flying kick. Useless. I haven't even been taught it,
but I was told to _never_ use such things unless I want the opponent to
grab my leg and throw me to the ground.
* a face-level kick. It's a purely intimidating thing, as the energy
needed to put your leg high enough will take all the strength away from
the blow. It's also very slow.
* a hip-level kick, going slightly downwards. It's the basic leg
technique. It's strong, albeit slow.
* a crouching sweep. Pretty good for throwing your opponent off balance
and/or forcing him to move away. It doesn't do any real damage per se.
* stomping the foot. No recreational trainer will teach you such a
technique, but the common sense tells me it would be effective at close
range, especially when done followed by an elbow blow.

Now, let's see which of those techniques are effective when your hands
are full:
* flying kick: only for bad movies.
* face-level kick: intimidation-only.
* hip-level kick: good, but takes some time for you to recover. If you
can't use hands, you'll be defenseless during that time.
* low sweep: doesn't do much damage.
* crushing the foot: limits the enemy's mobility, but can't kill him.
Unless you're fighting Achilles, that is.

Thus, leg techniques are good only when coupled with your hands.
Kicking-only just won't work in a normal fight.

Of course, the above applies only to a human-vs-human combat. If you
have ten skinheads (they're _not_ human beings) vs a lying target or a
creature (punching a dog, yeah right), the rules are different.

1KB
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 5:41:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Adam Borowski wrote:
> Klaus Kassner wrote:
> > [fighting when wielding a non-weapon object]
>
>> in the real world, a Shaolin monk should be able to do as much damage
>> (more in fact) in martial arts with his feet as with his hands. I
>> don't however know whether this works in slashem...
>
>
> <rant>
> "In the real world"...
> Well, while martial arts gives you an _enormous_ advantage in a fist
> fight, and if you're skilled you can stand against an unskilled thug
> with a knife, you have about _zero_ chances if you face someone who's
> wielding a real weapon and knows something about it.

> Some of the leg techniques are:

> * a face-level kick. It's a purely intimidating thing, as the energy
> needed to put your leg high enough will take all the strength away from
> the blow. It's also very slow.

I don't agree with this. In my Taekwondo course, we did this regularly,
and our trainers were able to crack thick wooden boards this way.
Depending on your ability, this technique can be fast *and* strong. A
grand-master (1st Dan or better) should be able to do *a lot* of damage
even with his feet only.

This said, I really don't know whether and how this has been implemented
in nethack or slashem. Probably, a monk wielding Vecna's hand cannot do
much damage just by kicking, even if he is grand master at martial arts.
--
Klaus Kassner
!