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PrCs - please critique (Was: Best way to model extra damag..

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Anonymous
March 3, 2005 9:36:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Azure Dragon Knight.

The Azure Dragon Knights ride mercury dragons and dive out of the sky
upon the goblinoid and giant hordes, surgically taking out the most
powerful individuals like obvious leaders or spellcasters. They also
act as scouts and spotters for the larger units of Azure Dragon Goblin
Hunters.

Azure Dragon Knights are most often light fighters, rangers, or
paladins. Rogues find it easy to join the ranks, but chafe under the
almost military discipline and hierarchy. Bards prefer to spend time
with the art loving dragons rather than ride them into battle.
Barbarians like to swing big weapons at their enemies. Full
spellcasters prefer blasting enemies from a distance, rather than the
strange aerial dance of dive and recover that the knights use in
combat.

Hit die:D 8
BAB: good (like the fighter)
Saves: Good Fort, good Reflex, poor Will.
Class skills: Fighter + Bluff, Intimidate, Spot, Listen, Knowledge
(nature) and Wilderness Lore.
Skill points at each level: 4+int modifier

Requirements:
Alignment: any non-evil
BAB: +7
Skills: Ride 10 ranks, Bluff or Intimidate 5 ranks
Feats: Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Weapon Focus any bow, crossbow
or javelin.

Class features:

1 Shot on the Fly, Favored enemy (goblinoid) +1
2 Stinging dive
3 Drive them before you, Switch target
4 Power throw, Favored enemy (goblinoid) +2
5 Piercing dive, Evasion

Many class features of the Azure Dragon knight depend on familiarity
between Knight and Dragon. These class features only work with a
mercury dragon, and only a dragon that the Knight knows and had the
opportunity to train with.

Shot on the Fly (Ex) When riding a dragon, the Azure Dragon Knight may
make ranged attacks at any point during the move.

Favored enemy (Ex.) The Knight gets one point of favored enemy
(goblinoids) or (giants) bonus which works just like the ranger's
favored enemy bonus. This bonus increases to +2 at level 4. If the
character already has favored enemy points, the bonuses stack.

Drive them before you (Ex) When flying on a dragon over a group (more
than one) of goblinoids, as a standard action, the Knight can make an
Intimidate Check opposed by the average Sense Motive check of the group
(e.g. +1 for goblin warriors.) Only opponents within 30ft are affected.
Advanced individual opponents may get separate checks at the DM's
discretion. If the check is successful, the Knight can make the
intimidated group jog (take double move actions) away from her position
for one round.
This ability cannot be used to drive the goblinoids into any obviously
deadly situation such as over a cliff or into a pool of acid. Most
often, the Knight will drive the goblinoids away from unprotected
targets or into a Hunter ambush.
The favored enemy bonus applies to the Intimidate check.

Switch Target (Ex) When flying on a dragon over a group (more than one)
of goblinoids, the Knight may feint one goblinoid within 30ft as per
the feinting rules. If the feint is successful, the target loses its
Dexterity bonus against the Knight's next attack. The favored enemy
bonus applies to the Bluff check to feint.

Stinging dive (Ex) When riding a dragon, the Knight may execute a dive
or charge that ends with a a javelin throw rather than a melee attack.
With Stinging dive, the Knight's javelin throw functions like a melee
attack (+2 to hit.) The throw must be executed from within 30ft of the
target. If the Knight has the Spirited Charge feat, the attack does
double damage as per the feat description.

Power throw (Ex) When riding a dragon and attacking with a thrown
javelin from less than 30ft away, the Knight may choose to deduct a
number up to her BAB from her attack roll and add the same number to
her damage roll.

Piercing dive (Ex) When riding a dragon and attacking from less than
30ft away, the Knight's javelins do double damage on a successful
dive/charge. If the Knight has the Spirited Charge feat, the attack
does triple damage.

Evasion (Ex) The Knight gains Evasion when riding a dragon.

Azure Dragon Goblin Hunter

The Goblin Hunters are auxiliary troops for the Dragon Knights. Their
job is to follow the Knights on the ground and mop up the scattered
goblinoids after a Knight attack. Because of the nature of their
primary targets, the Goblin Hunters have to be fast and able to deal
with several targets at once. They tend to work in small grousp and use
wolfpack tactics and ambushes.

Rangers and Fighter/Rogues make perfect Goblin Hunters. Monks find the
intensive and specialized training highly rewarding.

Hit die:D 8
BAB: good (like the fighter)
Saves: Good Fort, good Reflex, poor Will.
Class skills: Ranger-like
Skill points at each level: 4+int modifier

Requirements:
Alignment: any non-evil
BAB: +4
Skills: Wilderness Lore 4 ranks, Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks.
Feats: Weapon focus (any light weapon,) Two weapon fighting, Track

Class features:

Note: All of the Goblin Hunter's abilities work only when fighting
favored enemies and wielding paired light weapons with which the Hunter
has Weapon Focus.

1 Favored enemy +1, Power Attack, Increased Speed
2 Sneak attack (+1d6,)
3 Cleave
4 Favored enemy +2, Pounce
5 Sneak attack (+2d6,) Great cleave

Favored enemy (Ex.) The Hunter gets one point of favored enemy
(goblinoids) or (giants) bonus which works just like the ranger's
favored enemy bonus. This bonus increases to +2 at level 4. If the
character already has favored enemy points, the bonuses stack.

Power Attack (Ex) The Goblin Hunter gains the feat Power Attack even if
she does not meet the strength 13+ requirement and is allowed to use
Power Attack with light weapons. (See Note)

Increased Speed (Ex) The Goblin Hunter's speed is increased by 10ft
when wearing light armor or no armor and not carrying a heavy load.

Sneak attack (Ex) Functions just like the Rogue's sneak attack. (See
Note)

Cleave (Ex) The Goblin Hunter gains the feat Cleave. (See Note)

Pounce (Ex) the Goblin Hunter may full attack at the end of a charge.
(See Note)

Great Cleave (Ex.) The Goblin Hunter gains the feat Great Cleave. (See
Note.)

Silveraxe
March 3, 2005 10:54:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Silveraxe wrote:
> Azure Dragon Knight.

No problems with this one. My only question is where the dragons,
specifically, come in. Otherwise this could be any group of aerial
mounted warriors. No?

Maybe a few ranks of relevant knowledge? Or "must befriend a mercury
dragon"?


> Azure Dragon Goblin Hunter

Hum. Some questions here.

If you want to make a career of fighting goblinoids, it seems like
Power Attack and Cleave would be pretty high priorities. Likely you'd
already have them by 5th level, especially if you're a fighter.

ISTM there are two paradigms here. You have the high Str tank with
Power Attack and Cleave who charges into the mass of goblinoids, powers
up for extra damage against low AC foes, then gets bonus attacks by
Cleave. Then you have the sneaky rogue or light fighter who uses
stealth and sneak attacks and light or missile weapons.

Giving the tank Pounce and increased speed is very good, but sneak
attacks are less useful. A fighter type in (say) medium armor is going
to have trouble getting the SA in the first place; and if he does, then
it's a rather modest increase (relatively speaking) to his damage.

(Why paired light weapons?)

These class abilities are fine, but again it seems a bit generic. With
a search-and-replace, this could be a "Magical Beast Hunter". Might it
perhaps be more interesting to have abilities tailored to fighting
goblinoids? Skill focus (Move Silently), maybe, to offset the enemy's
racial alertness? Or maybe "must have defeated /n/ number of
goblinoids in combat"?

-- These are quibbles. These guys look fine.


Doug M.
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 11:15:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

So, these PrCs are tied to a group of Goblinoid Hunters who use Mercury
Dragons...

Can the bonus vs Goblinoids or Giants be split
+1/+1 for an Azure Dragon Knight(4,5) so as to cover both favored foes
of the group? How long does it take to get Knight & Dragon familiar
with each other?

Couldn't you have Favored Foes(Goblinoid & Giant) at +1 & +2 without
blowing the balance of the PrC?
(Yes, I mean both, and expect comments...)
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Anonymous
March 3, 2005 12:30:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Dragonkat wrote:
> So, these PrCs are tied to a group of Goblinoid Hunters who use
Mercury
> Dragons...
>
> Can the bonus vs Goblinoids or Giants be split
> +1/+1 for an Azure Dragon Knight(4,5) so as to cover both favored
foes
> of the group? How long does it take to get Knight & Dragon familiar
> with each other?
>
> Couldn't you have Favored Foes(Goblinoid & Giant) at +1 & +2 without
> blowing the balance of the PrC?
> (Yes, I mean both, and expect comments...)

I was going to say that same thing.

though my initial reaction was that using a knight mounted on a dragon
to slay goblins is overkill . . .
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 12:43:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

avidroleplayer@yahoo.com wrote:

Overall, I like them. Only commenting the things I'd change.

> Favored enemy (Ex.)

I'd make it work more similar to ranger's favoured enemy. +2 and +4,
(because ranger favoured enemies come in multiples of 2): +2 vs. either
goblinoids or giants at 1st, then at 4th +2 against the other and
increase one of the two by +2 (for +4).

> Drive them before you (Ex)

I'd simply make this some sort of fear effect. Cleaner, uses the
existing rules, and achieves a similar effect (goblins run away from the
knight).

> Favored enemy (Ex.)

Same as above.

> Power Attack (Ex) The Goblin Hunter gains the feat Power Attack even if
> she does not meet the strength 13+ requirement and is allowed to use
> Power Attack with light weapons. (See Note)

I don't think Power Attack is needed. Cleave and Great Cleave are bonus
feats and usable only vs. goblinoids, and even if you allow it for light
weapons, PA is rarely useful without a two-handed weapon.

Also, perhaps shuffle around the abilities a bit so that Pounce is
gained last? It's a better ability than Great Cleave, especially nice
for a TWF-er, and so a fitting culmination for the PrC.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 1:36:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <1109865262.635882.280290@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
Waldo <peggoliathy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Silveraxe wrote:
>> Azure Dragon Goblin Hunter
>These class abilities are fine, but again it seems a bit generic. With
>a search-and-replace, this could be a "Magical Beast Hunter". Might it
>perhaps be more interesting to have abilities tailored to fighting
>goblinoids? Skill focus (Move Silently), maybe, to offset the enemy's
>racial alertness? Or maybe "must have defeated /n/ number of
>goblinoids in combat"?

Some of the recent books have "Adaptation" sections which
discuss how to adapt material to alternative contexts. So you could add some
goblin-specific features, but point out how to change to, e.g., Magical Beast
Hunter.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 2:08:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> avidroleplayer@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Overall, I like them. Only commenting the things I'd change.
>
> > Favored enemy (Ex.)
>
> I'd make it work more similar to ranger's favoured enemy. +2 and +4,
> (because ranger favoured enemies come in multiples of 2): +2 vs.
either
> goblinoids or giants at 1st, then at 4th +2 against the other and
> increase one of the two by +2 (for +4).

I knew I made a mess of this. :( 
That's EXACTLY how it's supposed to work.
Problem is I use a freely distributed points system for favored enemies
IMC and something got lost in the transition back to the standard
rules.

> > Drive them before you (Ex)
>
> I'd simply make this some sort of fear effect. Cleaner, uses the
> existing rules, and achieves a similar effect (goblins run away from
the
> knight).

Not sure what you mean here.
Just put "this is a mind affecting, fear effect" on it?
It would eliminate the need for the "cannot be driven over the cliff"
part, true.

> > Power Attack (Ex) The Goblin Hunter gains the feat Power Attack
even if
> > she does not meet the strength 13+ requirement and is allowed to
use
> > Power Attack with light weapons. (See Note)
>
> I don't think Power Attack is needed. Cleave and Great Cleave are
bonus
> feats and usable only vs. goblinoids, and even if you allow it for
light
> weapons, PA is rarely useful without a two-handed weapon.

They also fight giants.
Power attacking for a lot with keen kukris can be scary.

> Also, perhaps shuffle around the abilities a bit so that Pounce is
> gained last?

You think so?
Pounce would only be used once per combat. Great Cleave could see many
uses.

Silveraxe.
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 7:47:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> avidroleplayer@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > > Drive them before you (Ex)
> > >
> > > I'd simply make this some sort of fear effect.
> >
> > Just put "this is a mind affecting, fear effect" on it?
>
> No, instead of describing exactly how it works (intimidate checks,
they
> run away for one round &c.), just make it a fear effect and use
existing
> rules.
>
> For example: standard action to activate, 30 ft. cone, Will DC 10 +
half
> character level + Cha modifier,

I'd like Intimidate to come into it because I want more variation than
just Cha +1 vs Cha +2 and because I want the Favored Enemy bonus to be
factored in.

> > > Also, perhaps shuffle around the abilities a bit so that Pounce
is
> > > gained last?
> >
> > Pounce would only be used once per combat. Great Cleave could see
many
> > uses.
>
> Ah. I assumend pounce could be used at the end of any charge.

It can be used at the end of any charge.
I just don't see any character charging to full attack here, then
charging again across the battlefield, to full attack over there.
Not that Dodge and Mobility would not be useful ANYWAY for this class,
but still.
IYE with the mounted paladin, does he charge, move away, charge again?

Silveraxe.
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 4:07:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

avidroleplayer@yahoo.com wrote:

> > > Drive them before you (Ex)
> >
> > I'd simply make this some sort of fear effect. Cleaner, uses the
> > existing rules, and achieves a similar effect (goblins run away from
> > the knight).
>
> Not sure what you mean here.
> Just put "this is a mind affecting, fear effect" on it?

No, instead of describing exactly how it works (intimidate checks, they
run away for one round &c.), just make it a fear effect and use existing
rules.

For example: standard action to activate, 30 ft. cone, Will DC 10 + half
character level + Cha modifier, goblins with less HD than the knight are
frightened/shaken for 1 round if save is failed/successful, goblins with
HD equal or more to the knight are shaken/nothing if save is failed
successful.

Adjust to taste: duration, HD limit, whether the targets are panicked,
frightened, shaken...

Alternately, if you really really want to use intimidate, you might let
the intimidate check set the Will DC, but that makes for extremely tough
DCs, so you might want to limit the ability more in other ways (a lower
HD limit, for example).

> > > Power Attack (Ex) The Goblin Hunter gains the feat Power Attack
> > > even if she does not meet the strength 13+ requirement and is allowed to
> > > use Power Attack with light weapons. (See Note)
> >
> > I don't think Power Attack is needed. Cleave and Great Cleave are
> > bonus
> > feats and usable only vs. goblinoids, and even if you allow it for
> > light
> > weapons, PA is rarely useful without a two-handed weapon.
>
> They also fight giants.
> Power attacking for a lot with keen kukris can be scary.

Not scarier than just attacking without Power Attcak with keen kukris, I
think. I haven't really run the numbers, so do as you think is best, but
I think that's it's very rarely worth it to Power Attack for -1/+1.
Especially if you already have -2/-2 to attacks from TWF...

> > Also, perhaps shuffle around the abilities a bit so that Pounce is
> > gained last?
>
> You think so?
> Pounce would only be used once per combat. Great Cleave could see many
> uses.

Ah. I assumend pounce could be used at the end of any charge. Aren't
there creatures that have pounce that works like that?


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 11:59:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

avidroleplayer@yahoo.com wrote:

> > > > > Drive them before you (Ex)
> > > >
> > > > I'd simply make this some sort of fear effect.
> > >
> > > Just put "this is a mind affecting, fear effect" on it?
> >
> > No, instead of describing exactly how it works (intimidate checks, they
> > run away for one round &c.), just make it a fear effect and use existing
> > rules.
> >
> > For example: standard action to activate, 30 ft. cone, Will DC 10 +
> > half character level + Cha modifier,
>
> I'd like Intimidate to come into it because I want more variation than
> just Cha +1 vs Cha +2 and because I want the Favored Enemy bonus to be
> factored in.

I suggest an intimidate check opposed by the goblins' Will saves, but I
don't expect much variation to occur... you'll just have all knights max
their intimidate.

Also, favoured enemy doesn't add to intimidate. You could stipulate that
it does for the purposes of Drive them before you, of course, but
normally it doesn't.

> > > > Also, perhaps shuffle around the abilities a bit so that Pounce
> > > > is gained last?
> > >
> > > Pounce would only be used once per combat. Great Cleave could see
> > > many uses.
> >
> > Ah. I assumend pounce could be used at the end of any charge.
>
> It can be used at the end of any charge.
> I just don't see any character charging to full attack here, then
> charging again across the battlefield, to full attack over there.

When the enemy drops, you often have to move 10+ ft. to attacking the
next one. For a TWF-er, it's pretty nice to be able to attack that next
one with up to seven attacks, instead of one.

BTW, I remembered another reason against Power Attack: the class gives
sneak attack and favoured enemy and you mention Ftr/Rogs as typical
hunters. Anything that gives mega-bonuses to damage (like, oh, sneak
attack and favoured enemy) makes PA less useful: if you already do
heaps-o-damage, you don't want to be decreasing your chances to hit for
some extra damage.

I mean, it's a freebie, so it's no big deal, really, but as a player I'd
be annoyed at getting an ability which I'm better off not using most of
the time anyway.

> IYE with the mounted paladin, does he charge, move away, charge again?

He has Ride-By Attack so it's charge and move away, charge and move away
again. He does as much damage as if he were full attacking, plus he
routinely forces massive damage saves, plus he doesn't end his turn next
to a badass monster.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
!