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Athlon 4... post your thoughts

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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 5:40:04 AM

Reviews are out and it looks like there’s nothing great in Palomino that Intel hasn’t already implemented into their CPU’s. It appears that AMD is still following Intel’s lead.

<b>Improved Data prefetch </b> (AMD is copying Intel)
<b>Increased number of TLB entries </b> (Intel had this too)
<b>SSE </b> (Of course Intel has this)
<b>Thermal Protection </b> (bout time AMD implemented this)



Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!

More about : athlon post thoughts

Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 5:45:10 AM

your weird

who cares what you think

--call it what you wish, with this machine I can make mercury flow in 3 directions at once--
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 5:56:41 AM

ooh.. are you upset today? I would be too if I were an big AMD dork like you.


Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!
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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 6:53:18 AM

Post deleted by Fredi
May 14, 2001 6:58:48 AM

There is one thing that AMD does that INTEL doesn't. They price their processors competitively!

Hell Yeah!

Why start another flame war? They both rock! I'm just curious how AMD will pull ahead. I'm surprised that Intel hasn't squashed them yet. You'd think that they could destroy anything with their large capital. Is it not liquid or what? I refuse to believe that the P4 commercials are all that intel has got.

Regardless, as we've all said a million times. It's Palamino vs Northwood. The battle begins soon and then we'll see 200 posts a day min in the CPU section :) 

<font color=red>Did you ever wonder WHY aliens only abduct idiots?</font color=red>
May 14, 2001 7:18:03 AM

hey now, Raystonn isn't the ONLY smart guy here, he's just one of the few of us that post.

Everett6
yea, AMD is following Intel's lead, so what? GM and Ford have been playing follow the leader for nearly 100 years, tell me which company is better?
if you want to get picky, it comes down to the individual product, not the company.
sounds like AMD was cutting corners, so to speak, using cheaper transistors until they could get enough of a market share to absorb some of the cost to use the higher quality transistors. thermal protection is definately good, especially in laptops, which is the portion of the market where heat actually worries me.
Honestly tho, I don't think this version of the Athlon is worth a name upgrade, it hardly changes anything, just a few tweaks here and there...
I wonder how long it will be before someone makes a program that can change the multiplier on the Palaminos like there is for the K6 2+'s...

I think the mobile A4s are going to be another overclocking badass, probably will require a bios update to run on desktops tho...
1ghz @ 1.4v, up it to 1.75 and see how far it will go...

----------------------
why, oh WHY, is the world run by morons?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 7:36:41 AM

Athlon 4 is kinda like catchup to intel with thermal protection while having a nice decrese in heat and a small increase in speed. When I heard about it way back when my only thought was how well that 20% less heat would translate in overclocking.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 8:47:24 AM

"The only one here who even sounds remotley intelligent is Raystonn. Until then why don't all you psuedo "computer geniuses" give it a break. Jesus H Christ. By the way Raystonn what campus are you at?"

Looks like hack is looking for a date. Your in the wrong forum 'genius'.

Ohhh!! next time you curse, please get some balls you wimp, and write it properly - JESUS CHRIST!!!! GOD DAMN IT!!!

As for the A4, I am happy that they designed it with an on-die thermal diode. Now I won't have to read countless stupid posts (usually authored by intel supporters that know nothing of what they are saying) about how athlons burn up.
May 14, 2001 9:03:21 AM

I'm now 100% certain you've turned into a troll. A pity that...I really expected better when I first saw your posts...

Kelledin

bash-2.04$ kill -9 1
init: Just what do you think you're doing, Dave?
May 14, 2001 9:24:23 AM

Supporting and being fanatic about sports teams is one thing, but a processor manufacturer?


<font color=red>"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"</font color=red>
May 14, 2001 10:06:48 AM

and is copying this bad? after all both Athlon and P3 are workalike processors and they are bound to have things in common.

I wonder if everrett would have been a Ford fanatic and General Motors had brought in a new car, he would have cried, <b>look, GM has copied Ford, they too have round wheels!</b>

btw both the football teams use the same ball to play with...

girish

<font color=blue>die-hard fans don't have heat-sinks!</font color=blue>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 10:54:24 AM

i am sort of disapointed by the Palomino specs. I'd hoped for more; however, thermal protection is good.. Im glad they finally implement it.

The best part I read, however, was the socket A compatibility ! I had hoped my board would support Palomino, but I had never dreamed it would allow me to upgrade to Thoroughbred... let alone Barton !!!

Thank you AMD..
May 14, 2001 11:51:24 AM

It even has a Steering wheel and seats. Why couldn't they have been innovative and used a Joystick to steer the car and a stool to sit on!

Oh My God! They even copied the concept of brakes! ;-)

The thing is there is no point re-inventing the wheel. AMD are smart enough to know that.


<font color=red>"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"</font color=red>
May 14, 2001 2:14:08 PM

If you were anything more than an ignorant Intel troll you'd know data prefetch and TLB registries are integral parts of any modern CPU and are nothing new to Intel, AMD, IBM, Motorola, or any CPU manufacturer. You should also think about the performance AMD has been able to offer with fewer TLB entries and a less optimized data prefetch before making any statements as to who's might be superior.

-= This is our wading pool.
Stop pissing in it. =-
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 2:24:52 PM

I was expecting... err.. hoping for more performance from Palomino but that didnt happen. The performance increase isnt that great, but the enhancements to the core is a step forward for AMD and every imporvement they make is a good thing. I do believe AMD is going to need Thoroughbred to compete with Northwood.


Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 2:34:11 PM

Post deleted by Fredi
May 14, 2001 2:41:04 PM

Your not putting on a very good first impression yourself. Why not try calming down a bit and talking normally? There are some very intelligent people here from both sides that would be glad to start a conversation. But I usually ignore the ones with pointless ranting.
May 14, 2001 2:50:25 PM

I dont think I'll be upgrading my computer until very late this year or early next year. Now, Unless intel bring their prices down enough to actually compete with Amd for MY custom, It looks like its gonna be another AMD for me.

Maybe It will be a Thoroughbred on an nVidia platform. That would be cool.


<font color=red>"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"</font color=red>
May 14, 2001 3:29:49 PM

everett, and how much of a performance DECREASE does the P4 offer at a theoretical same clock speed as the P3? I think a 16% increase is pretty damn good.

I don't have the time to procrastinate.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 4:03:11 PM

Well, the P4 would theoretically be slower under certain apps but keep in mind that the P4 is a radically new architecture with a 21 stage pipeline.. Which I think is double that of the PIII core. A pipeline that long will cause the cpu do be slower in some apps compared to an Athlon or PIII. The benefit of the longer pipeline is the ability to scale the CPU to MUCH higher clock speeds, Intel claims 10GHz is very likely. Since AMD is not using a deep-pipeline architecture the Athlon core will max out long before the P4 core does. Sure, SOI technology will allow AMD to push the K7 core even further but SOI is only a short-term solution. Eventually AMD will have to design a new core with a deeper pipeline much the same as Intel has done and like the P4 that processor will sacrifice some performance in exchange for greater MHz scalability.


Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!
May 14, 2001 5:48:40 PM

Haven't we already had a debate on the merits of a longer pipeline? I think that the ideas that came out of it was that the days of measuring a CPU's speed based on the M/GHz was outdated and no longer indicative of the processor's true performance. So what if the pipeline is deeper, how fast can the P4 push those instructions through the pipeline without it getting fouled up (i.e. misprediction).

-SammyBoy

Without Evil, there can be no Good. Therefore, without an Intel, there can be no AMD.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 5:53:34 PM

well yeah. this has been discussed before. but i was only responding to Antipop's post. Seems he has forgotten why the P4 is slower in certain situations then the Athlon and PIII.


Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!
May 14, 2001 6:04:59 PM

"I was expecting... err.. hoping for more performance from Palomino but that didnt happen."

Well now... this reminds me somewhat of the P4!! Intel opted for a redisigned architecture to allow it to scale to very high clock speeds, even though it crippled the Processor to less-than top-notch speeds. AMD has done the same thing here, but to a lesser extent. The difference is, the Athlon 4 is actually faster than the T-bird, though like the P4, the reduced power consumption and heat should allow it to scale to higher clock speeds. However, the P4 actually *decreased* in overall performance clock-for-clock, but will scale much higher than the Palamino. I didn't hear you complaining about the little advantage the P4 had when it came out...

--Fltsimbuff
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 7:26:47 PM

Quote:
I didn't hear you complaining about the little advantage the P4 had when it came out...

I don’t think I was posting on this board when the P4 was introduced. And for the record... I think I’ve said this before, I recommend everyone to avoid the P4 platform until we get a better look at what Northwood has to offer. I think most people will be pleased with its new 'enhancements'.

Although I hoped Palomino had more performance to offer any performance increase is better then nothing, and if 7.5% avg performance increase over the T-Bird is all it can muster then so be it. Good for AMD.



Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 7:31:46 PM

hmmm.... Looks ok but P4's SSE2 is still better then Athlon 4's SSE+

I only steal the princess cause she is hot ;*)
May 14, 2001 7:35:23 PM

AMD may be following Intel, but they always seem to do it better than Intel. Especially in pricing and overclocking. Without AMD, Intel's choke-hold on the PC market would be even worse. As soon as AMD wakes up and takes chipset design seriously, they will pry Intel's finger's away from the consumers' throats.

Are we there yet?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 7:37:33 PM

"like the P4 that processor will sacrifice some performance in exchange for greater MHz scalability." (Everett6)

Is faster Mhz the goal? Is all the worldwide consumer wants is bigger Mhz? The uneducated consumer may look only at Mhz, but the bigger picture is performance.
Intel and AMD would be stupid only to look at clockspeed and sacrifice performance for now superificial clockspeed. Yes, clockspeed plays a part in the performance, and it also is a good selling point, but Intel made a bad decision when they traded all these new architectures for the real performance. It is truly sad that a 1.33 Gigahertz CPU is nipping at the heals of a 1.7 Gigahertz, and their only excuse is, "the software isn't optimized." Macintosh could make the same excuse. Oh, we would be the leader if all the software was made for Mac. Oh well, maybe some cars would be faster if they would use 1000 octane fuel. Shoddy performance in the "real world" is inexcuseable.
If you are making a CPU base on the x86 architecture, make it work well on current software, and don't try to make your own standard. Companies that try that fail. Car makers make cars that work well on 87 octane fuel. You can "tweak" the cars to take advantages of their strengths, but they have fine performance on regular fuel. Chip makers should make CPUs that perform well on todays software. A cpu that will only run fast on optimized software is as bad as saying that the latest mustang has bad performance because you need racing fuel. REAL WORLD PERFORMANCE is what counts.

Aklein



Life is hard...Live with it.
May 14, 2001 7:40:44 PM

"I was expecting... err.. hoping for more performance from Palomino but that didnt happen."

No-one should have expected to much from Palomino, it has new features not a new design. Adding air conditioning to a car does not make it go faster, but it sure makes the ride more enjoyable.

Palomino was not made to compete with Northwood, that is what Thoroughbred is for (both on 0.13u). Palomino will allow AMD to stay competitive with Intel for the six months until T-bred comes out to level the playing field on the new manufacturing process.

<font color=blue> The Revolution starts here... as soon as I finish my coffee </font color=blue> :eek: 
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 8:04:42 PM

Quote:
As soon as AMD wakes up and takes chipset design seriously, they will pry Intel's finger's away from the consumers' throats.

Yes, someday AMD will realize that VIA's sub-par chipsets is only hurting them in the long run.


Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!
May 14, 2001 8:12:42 PM

Quote:
The benefit of the longer pipeline is the ability to scale the CPU to MUCH higher clock speeds, Intel claims 10GHz is very likely. Since AMD is not using a deep-pipeline architecture the Athlon core will max out long before the P4 core does.

Dude, you need to pay more attention to the articles you regurgitate and to reality. Deepening the pipeline is one way to help a CPU scale. So is a die shrink. So is SOI. No one can say for certain which will prove the most beneficial, as SOI is a fairly new technology, but you should pay attention to the fact that despite the P4's pipeline 'advantage', it currently isn't scaling any faster than the Athlon. Only time will tell whether Intel can outpace AMD.

Also, whatever your feelings about it, you have argued several times in defense of the P4, saying that sacrificing IPC for scalability is a necessary evil. That AMD has managed to not only improve scalability, but increase performance and reduce power consumption as well, should have you singing praises, not belittling their success.

-= This is our wading pool.
Stop pissing in it. =-
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 8:16:12 PM

Quote:
Is faster Mhz the goal? Is all the worldwide consumer wants is bigger Mhz? The uneducated consumer may look only at Mhz, but the bigger picture is performance.

No, but it is pretty difficult to get major performance with out increasing Mhz. I see your point though... AMD has no reason to drop the Athlon core when it still has some life left in it. But the situation was different for Intel. Intel was using the PIII which maxed out at 1GHz Intel needed a new core that could handle higher Mhz..thus the P4 was designed. Right now the P4 is a bit of a dog.. but over time with enhancements to the CPU it will be better. Look at how the Pentium started through the years it got better and better. The P4 core will be the same way.



Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 8:20:53 PM

Quote:
No-one should have expected to much from Palomino, it has new features not a new design. Adding air conditioning to a car does not make it go faster, but it sure makes the ride more enjoyable.

Truth is, very few ppl outside AMD new for sure what enhancements were going to be in the Palomino core. But there sure was plenty of hype form AMD supporters and AMD themselves claiming that it would be substantially faster then the T-Bird.. Even your beloved Jerry Sanders said this.. I will try to find the article were he says this and i will show you.


Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 8:30:16 PM

> Although I hoped Palomino had more performance to offer
> any performance increase is better then nothing, and if
> 7.5% avg performance increase over the T-Bird is all it
> can muster then so be it. Good for AMD.

With all this talk about new features and performance gains, you people forget something. Now, it's not as much about how faster is the new Athlon versus the old Athlon, or versus all kinds of Pentiums. The situation has changed.

Note how Palomino is being released for notebooks first, then for workstations, and only then for desktop. AMD's marketing punch has shifted dramatically. It appears to me that now they want to take mobile computer and workstation markets away from Intel, while paying much less attention to what's happening in the desktop market. Considering this, we should be comparing other factors.

Leo
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 8:32:12 PM

Quote:
Deepening the pipeline is one way to help a CPU scale. So is a die shrink. So is SOI. No one can say for certain which will prove the most beneficial, as SOI is a fairly new technology, but you should pay attention to the fact that despite the P4's pipeline 'advantage', it currently isn't scaling any faster than the Athlon. Only time will tell whether Intel can outpace AMD.

SOI is only a temporary solution for AMD to obtain higher Mhz. I agree that SOI is a good thing.. It will allow AMD to get more mileage from the K7 core. But SOI will not take the K7 core to 10Ghz and beyond. Many industry sources confirm this. In the long run AMD will have to deepen their pipeline much like Intel has done in order to keep up with the scalability of the P4 or surpass it.. mhz wise.



Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!
May 14, 2001 8:38:51 PM

AMD shouldn't be working on notebooks or workstation's. Desktop market is AMD's bread & butter. Northwood P4 is a killer processor. Northwood FPU is built up (double pumped ALU + L2 512kb) Also SSE2 will have more support by Q3 2001. P4 Xeon's are coming soon also 64-bit Itanium's "finally" and 0.13micron p3 for the low end and notebook.

The only nice Intel guy.
May 14, 2001 10:11:27 PM

"AMD shouldn't be working on notebooks or workstation's. Desktop market is AMD's bread & butter."

Why shouldn't they? The desktop market is Amd's bread and butter right now but why not move into the mobile/workstation/server market as well? Just curious.. thats all..
May 14, 2001 10:22:37 PM

well AMD has always aimed at the value and desktop market. It weird that they would aim at the workstation and note market bad business i believe. Northwood p4 is coming and AMD should be trying to win more support. Northwood is aim directly at the desktop market. Remember northwoods fpu isn't crippled as the willy p4.

The only nice Intel guy.
May 14, 2001 10:39:01 PM

You forgot to mention that an AMD CPU pops Intel's Cherry at eqaul speeds for both:

PERFORMANCE
AND
PRICE




It worked yesterday! :lol: 
May 14, 2001 10:54:45 PM

Just trying to understand your post... you start off saying it would be bad business for Amd to be in the workstation/notebook market, but then lead off about Northwood being aimed at the desktop market. What are you trying to say?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 10:58:13 PM

Yes, at equal clock speeds AMD boinks Intel in performance and price. But with the introduction of the P4 clock-to-clock comparisons no longer apply.


Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!
May 14, 2001 11:01:14 PM

yawn....

Nothing against you Everett but I dont get excited everytime a new CPU debuts. My take on the new Athlon4 is I think its a good for notebook users for the fact that it consumes less power.

Maybe one day I'll actually need a moble. :smile:

:tongue: <font color=green> I LOVE INTEL. It tastes like chicken </font color=green>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2001 11:09:09 PM

Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep that in mind. :D 
lol


Relax, its only ONES and ZEROS!
May 14, 2001 11:17:06 PM

Actually, according to THG and AMD itself, the reason why AMD is aiming at the mobile market, followed soon after by the workstation market, is that they see where their weaknesses lie. It's no question that AMD and Intel battle over the desktop market, and the P4 or A4 won't change things much. The real battles to be won are on the mobile and workstation markets. The margins aren't much different in the mobile market than the desktop market, but it is easy to say that AMD, by offering a chip that is cheaper and faster (real-world and MHz wise), will corner the mobile market, kicking the Celeron out completely, as well as the PIII, which is a good chip in its own right, but it is slower, more sluggish, and much more expensive. I really think that the Palomino was AMD's solution to the K6-2 and III that worked a few years back, but lost as that line stagnated and the Celerons and PIIIs kept going. And then AMD decided that since they are going to go after the mobile market with gusto, why not the workstation market as well. The workstation market is small, but the profit margins are enormous compared to mobile and desktop. Plus, AMD wishes to get the brand loyalty, or at least some kind of competition going, so that the Hammer line doesn't have to be some kind of unknown variable to IT managers out there. They will know what AMD is, and hopefully, if the Palomino works out well, they'll be more likely to give the Hammer a try.

Again, AMD already knows it can, and will, succeed in the desktop market, they are going to try things out elsewhere. AMD said that they don't expect to gain much, if any market share in the desktop world, but they expect to climb to around a 50% share in the mobile world.

-SammyBoy

Without Evil, there can be no Good. Therefore, without an Intel, there can be no AMD.
May 14, 2001 11:29:36 PM

SammyBoy im trying to say. That northwood FPU is built up, I'm talking about faster then the Athlon 4. SSE2 will have more support by Q3 2001. Most mobo makers are waiting for the Northwood P4. The "willy" P4 sucked cause of a Poor FPU. Did intel do this on purpose "Most likely". Northwood is a Killer processor able to go up to 6ghz. Where the Athlon MAX is 3ghz.

The only nice Intel guy.
May 15, 2001 12:20:12 AM

Really sad aint it? *chuckle*
i can just see them at a party trying desperately to pick up girls by telling them "Im a strong Intel/AMD supporter" lol

me, i prefer to keep as much money to myself when buying a gaming beast, so im really enjoying the competition!
gone are the bad old days of just intel intel or maybe intel.



"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you have created"~Darth Vader, Star wars
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 15, 2001 12:51:55 AM

It is perfectly reasonable for AMD to aim at the notebook market. That's where Intel is most vulnerable right now. There is no mobile Pentium 4 in sight, and with only Pentium III to compete against, little can stop Palomino from gaining a good share of the market. The only concern I see is stability issues. Perhaps, that's why only ALi MAGIK and KT133A chipsets were chosen.

Leo
May 15, 2001 1:02:24 AM

Well i guess notebook market. Most likely the ALi magik 1 is being used. Well the workstation market. Intel has the P4 xeon and Itanium coming out at the end of MAY. Weird i think to aim at the high end workstation market.

The only nice Intel guy.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
May 15, 2001 1:15:07 AM

Well, let's see how they stack up against each other in the workstation market. :) 

Leo

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by LeoKor on 05/15/01 10:36 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
May 15, 2001 4:07:31 AM

I think a large part of the core issue is being missed here. The Athlon 4 mobile is here now. You can actually buy it now. Same goes for the P4, the PIII mobile etc. We can talk all day about every up and coming product, which is great, but in my view the Athlon4 mobile is a very very important step for AMD.

Basically it is now possible to pick a notebook system with near P4 speeds (read performance) for a very reasonable price. That is stunning! I think AMD is in a very comfortable spot right now. They have Intel on the run, no one can argue otherwise. I honestly believe that P4 would have never been released last year if it was not for AMD. It was simply not complete. They rushed the thing out the door and in the process made some crippling compromises.

The next P4, or should I say the real P4, will be a much better CPU. The problem is, by that time AMD will be about to chrisen their new baby. These are not good times for Intel, they need to pull up their boot straps and start making some hay, SOON.
May 15, 2001 4:48:46 AM

Amen!

It worked yesterday! :lol: 
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