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My first conduct assencion (3rd assencion overall), though arguably one
of the easiest (if not the easiest) conduct assencion, a vegan monk
(ok, vegetarian would be marginally easier, but not much difference),
once I found the ring of slow digestion, keeping the conduct was easy!

Nothing too unusual happened, found a magic lamp in the mines, used it
as a light source, found mojo early (just after I had gotten my unarmed
combat skill to grand master!), then got frost brand via sacrificing in
a dungeon alter (very luck two find 2 very good weapons), played mainly
combat wombat, with the odd sleep or magic missile spell, had no magic
resistance or reflection, and just before the quest had two very close
calls within 2 Dlvs.

First was a nymph attack, normally pretty harmless, but she stole my
wand of death, and then a couple of turns later "You hear a zap. A
death ray narrowly misses you". I very hastaly cast sleep on her then
beat her to a pulp, but then the next level had a similar insance with
a black dragon disintigration ray, so that was enough to make me wish
for SDSM (yes, with a monk, by that stage I had found gauntlet of
strength, and had my main weapon at +3, so I found I was still hitting
75% of the time) - dislike amulet of reflection, as I much rather
amulet of life saving, wanted to keep my robe for spells, and knew I
would get magic resistance from the eyes of the overworld.

With my new armour I tackled the quest, and although magic resistance
would have made it a lot easier for the quest nemisis, it was still
straight forward, though I went through 2 potions of full healing (when
he hits he hits hard!).

After that everything was straight forward, pretty much had whole
assencion kit before kit, used the 3 wands there for scrolls of
genocide (never found any in the game), amulet of life saving, and...
after running out of other ideas, master key of theivery for half
physical damage (only decent chaotic artifact I could wish for!). I
later charged and used other 3 wishes on dilithium crystals to boost my
score a little (and of course had one wish left).

The rest was straight forward, went through a plethora of pets, had two
archons at one stage, but both got eaten by purple worms! Before the
assencion run I jumped on a poly trap and ate a few rings, including
poly and poly control, so after that I played half the game as a vamp
lord (the other half as human), hence why my stats arent maxed out (as
they were halfway into the game).

Wizard of Yendor was a piece of cake, wand of death helped, the plane
with the alters was a little harder, but my magic harp was very usefull
in making all the insects a barrier between me and the rest, and thats
it!

Not sure how or why, but I managed to get my god very angry, so I lost
12 points of protection that I paid through the roof to get, but still
ended with an ok AC.

Monkey, chaotic male human Monk




-------
.....
..... -----
._. |.4..... 1
... ------ --.5---------
| ..... | -- --...|aaaa@aA|
|. ----.---- .| ---....|aaaaaa&|
|.............| ....@Daaaa@aaa|
---....%....--- ---....|.aaaqaa|
-- -----|----- -- -- --..5|aaaaaaa|4
--- - ----|---- --..---------4
------- $ -------- % | |... ... 5
| | | -----
----%% -- -- -------
| -- -- |
--- ----|---- ---
| % |
----------------

Monkey the Student of Winds St:25 Dx:13 Co:15 In:21 Wi:23 Ch:16
Chaotic
Astral Plane $:45 HP:266(479) Pw:140(200) AC:-37 Xp:25/57050157 T:78170
Burdened


Your inventory
Amulets
w - a blessed amulet of life saving (being worn)
Weapons
d - 10 +4 daggers (in quiver)
e - the blessed rustproof +1 Demonbane
q - the blessed rustproof +7 Frost Brand (weapon in hand)
t - the blessed rustproof +7 Mjollnir (alternate weapon; not wielded)
Armor
g - a blessed fireproof +5 robe (being worn)
h - a blessed fireproof +5 pair of speed boots (being worn)
k - a blessed +4 T-shirt (being worn)
v - a blessed rustproof +4 pair of gauntlets of power (being worn)
x - an uncursed +2 cloak of magic resistance (BACKUP SOURCE OF MR)
F - a blessed fireproof +5 small shield (being worn)
L - a blessed rustproof +5 helm of brilliance (being worn)
W - a blessed +4 silver dragon scale mail (being worn)
Comestibles
i - 2 uncursed cockatrice eggs
R - an uncursed partly eaten food ration
Rings
s - a cursed ring of slow digestion (on right hand)
S - a blessed ring of levitation
Wands
Various wands, 1 death, many teleport
Tools (part)
y - the blessed rusty Master Key of Thievery
I - a magic harp (0:4) - VERY USEFULL
N - the blessed Eyes of the Overworld (being worn)
-Magic markers, and the other usual tools (bag, unicorn horn, etc)

Contents of the bag of holding (part):
120778 gold pieces (Very heavy, why I was burdened)
an uncursed amulet of life saving
the fireproof +0 Sting
15 potions of holy water
4 potions of unholy water
And other items, mainly a few wands and tools, and many gems

Final attributes (Not a bad list for a vegan?)
You were piously aligned
Your alignment was 400
You were fire resistant
You were cold resistant
You were sleep resistant
You were shock resistant
You were poison resistant
You were magic-protected
You were blinded
You saw invisible
You were telepathic
You were warned
You had automatic searching
You were invisible to others
You were stealthy
You had teleport control
You had slower digestion
You were protected
You were protected from shape changers
You were polymorphing
You had polymorph control
You were very fast
You had reflection
Your life would have been saved
You were lucky (2)
Huan Ti was very angry with you (No idea why)
You survived

Spells known in the end
Name Level Category Fail
a - protection 1 clerical 0%
b - light 1 divination 0%
c - sleep 1 enchantment 0%
d - healing 1 healing 0%
e - fireball 4 attack 0%
f - force bolt 1 attack 0%
g - magic missile 2 attack 0%
h - cure blindness 2* healing 0%
i - wizard lock 2 matter 0%
j - haste self 3 escape 0%
k - detect food 2 divination 0%
l - levitation 4* escape 0%
m - cure sickness 3* healing 0%
n - remove curse 3 clerical 0%
o - slow monster 2 enchantment 0%
p - jumping 1 escape 0%
q - create familiar 6 clerical 0%
r - stone to flesh 3 healing 0%
s - detect monsters 1* divination 0%
t - invisibility 4* escape 0%
u - confuse monster 2* enchantment 0%
v - turn undead 6 clerical 0%
w - detect treasure 4 divination 0%
x - charm monster 3 enchantment 0%
y - dig 5 matter 40%

Vanquished creatures
Asmodeus
Baalzebub
Orcus
The Wizard of Yendor (5 times)
Pestilence
Famine (twice)
2 high priests
Master Kaen
4 mastodons
Medusa
...
9 newts
3276 creatures vanquished.

Voluntary challenges
You were a vegan
You genocided 13 types of monsters
You never polymorphed an object (never found wand of poly)
You changed form 28 times
You used 7 wishes

Your skills at the end
Fighting Skills
martial arts [Grand Master]
Weapon Skills
dagger [Basic]
long sword [Basic]
crossbow [Basic]
Spellcasting Skills
attack spells [Basic]
healing spells [Basic]
divination spells [Basic]
enchantment spells [Basic]
clerical spells [Skilled]
escape spells [Basic]

Goodbye Monkey the Demigod...
You and the giant beetle and the soldier ant and the soldier ant and
the wumpus and the killer bee and the giant ant and the giant ant and
the giant beetle
went to your reward with 5061164 points,
Demonbane (worth 2500 zorkmids and 6250 points)
Frost Brand (worth 3000 zorkmids and 7500 points)
Mjollnir (worth 4000 zorkmids and 10000 points)
The Master Key of Thievery (worth 3500 zorkmids and 8750 points)
Sting (worth 800 zorkmids and 2000 points)
The Eyes of the Overworld (worth 2500 zorkmids and 6250 points)
The Bell of Opening (worth 5000 zorkmids and 12500 points)
10 amber stones (worth 10000 zorkmids),
10 opals (worth 8000 zorkmids),
9 dilithium crystals (worth 40500 zorkmids),
7 jacinth stones (worth 22750 zorkmids),
6 amethyst stones (worth 3600 zorkmids),
6 fluorite stones (worth 2400 zorkmids),
5 black opals (worth 12500 zorkmids),
4 diamonds (worth 16000 zorkmids),
4 rubies (worth 14000 zorkmids),
4 emeralds (worth 10000 zorkmids),
4 chrysoberyl stones (worth 2800 zorkmids),
4 garnet stones (worth 2800 zorkmids),
3 jasper stones (worth 1500 zorkmids),
2 turquoise stones (worth 4000 zorkmids),
2 jet stones (worth 1700 zorkmids),
2 agate stones (worth 400 zorkmids),
2 amulets of life saving (worth 300 zorkmids),
and 120823 pieces of gold, after 78170 moves.
Killer: ascended
You were level 25 with a maximum of 479 hit points when you ascended.

5061164 Monkey-Mon-Hum-Mal-Cha ascended to demigod-hood. 266 [479]
 
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On the topic of conduct assencions, I asked earlier whether this is the
easiest 'real' conduct assencion (I dont count not wishing for
artifacts, not poly-ing items or self real conducts), seeing as monks
gain a heap of atributes, thus there isnt as much need to eat meat.

What would you guys say the next easiest conduct is? Wishless (prob
could have done this game, only thing I wished for that I needed for
ascention kit was reflection, and theres other ways around that)?
Illiterate (obviously only for combat wombat)?

I feel like more of a chalange, but nothing too imposible (ie fasting)
 

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Jakob Creutzig wrote:

> Illiterate is *hard*. People disagree on whether wishless or
> genoless is harder, but I think most would agree that illiterate
> is harder. IMHO it's not hard to go polyless, and after that,
> one can aim at wishgenopolyless.

I have 5 ascencions, all polyless. That's not even something I
think about. One of my ascensions was also genoless, and that was
a genuine challenge for me. On the other hand, I *fear* wishless,
and I can't even contemplate an illiterate ascension.
 
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Marky Mark wrote:
> My first conduct assencion (3rd assencion overall), though arguably
one
> of the easiest (if not the easiest) conduct assencion, a vegan monk
> (ok, vegetarian would be marginally easier, but not much difference),
> once I found the ring of slow digestion, keeping the conduct was
easy!

Congratulations!

> knew I
> would get magic resistance from the eyes of the overworld.

Dude, that's dangerous! I figured the same thing when I ascended a
monk. Then on the ascension run, double-trouble Rodneys on DL 12
stole the Amulet and the Eyes, then vaporized my entire armor kit
except my speed boots before killing me.

After my "oLS kicked in, I retreated back to my stash at the castle,
used my last wish on a [CoMR, and scavenged some basic armor from
the soldiers. I finished the game with about a -8 AC. Happily, the
first altar I tried on Astral was correct, because I figured my odds
were about 50/50 of making it to the second, and very slim indeed if
I had to try all 3.

> the plane
> with the alters was a little harder, but my magic harp was very
usefull
> in making all the insects a barrier between me and the rest

Magic harps are cool. But the insects make a nice buffer anyway,
even when hostile. Their damage is pretty negligible (except if you
have a -8 AC).

> 5061164 Monkey-Mon-Hum-Mal-Cha ascended to demigod-hood. 266 [479]

Congrats again!
 
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Nathan wrote:
> Jakob Creutzig wrote:
>
>
>>Illiterate is *hard*. People disagree on whether wishless or
>>genoless is harder, but I think most would agree that illiterate
>>is harder. IMHO it's not hard to go polyless, and after that,
>>one can aim at wishgenopolyless.
>
>
> I have 5 ascencions, all polyless. That's not even something I
> think about. One of my ascensions was also genoless, and that was
> a genuine challenge for me. On the other hand, I *fear* wishless,
> and I can't even contemplate an illiterate ascension.
>

It's easy enough to see how you might go wishless though, if you didn't
get any wishes before the castle, and if you'd hit some bones files or
otherwise got extremely lucky and ended up with tons of nice equipment
by that point.
 
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"Marky Mark" <mdmota@yahoo.com.au> writes:

> What would you guys say the next easiest conduct is? Wishless (prob
> could have done this game, only thing I wished for that I needed for
> ascention kit was reflection, and theres other ways around that)?
> Illiterate (obviously only for combat wombat)?

Illiterate is *hard*. People disagree on whether wishless or
genoless is harder, but I think most would agree that illiterate
is harder. IMHO it's not hard to go polyless, and after that,
one can aim at wishgenopolyless.

Best,
Jakob
 
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Quoting Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>:
>Illiterate is *hard*. People disagree on whether wishless or
>genoless is harder, but I think most would agree that illiterate
>is harder.

Illiterate almost subsumes genocideless (yes, yes, thrones) and a bunch of
other stuff, so it's pretty obvious that it is harder.

I've done genocideless a few times involuntarily without feeling serious
pain, but I never reached the Castle wand and thought "I don't really need
this", so...
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Friday, April.
 
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"Marky Mark" <mdmota@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1113574120.190278.225540@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> On the topic of conduct assencions, I asked earlier whether this is the
> easiest 'real' conduct assencion (I dont count not wishing for
> artifacts, not poly-ing items or self real conducts), seeing as monks
> gain a heap of atributes, thus there isnt as much need to eat meat.
>
> What would you guys say the next easiest conduct is? Wishless (prob
> could have done this game, only thing I wished for that I needed for
> ascention kit was reflection, and theres other ways around that)?
> Illiterate (obviously only for combat wombat)?
>
> I feel like more of a chalange, but nothing too imposible (ie fasting)
>
Take my word for it, illiterate is a major pain. Do a few genoless before
trying that, because you will find it diffucult to genocide 13 types of
monsters one type at a time from thrones. And anyway it's fun to be
confident enough to type "nothing" at that prompt.

Danny
Ascended every class but H
Conducts done: Polyless(10+), Genoless(10+), Wishless(1),
Illiterate/genoless/athiest/polyless/polyselfless (yes, one game)
 
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StymieG wrote:

> > knew I
> > would get magic resistance from the eyes of the overworld.
>
> Dude, that's dangerous! I figured the same thing when I ascended a
> monk. Then on the ascension run, double-trouble Rodneys on DL 12
> stole the Amulet and the Eyes, then vaporized my entire armor kit
> except my speed boots before killing me.

Yes, I was aware of that (although I the wizard never did take it off
me, even though he double troubled me a couple of times), thats why I
had a +2 cloak of magic resistance in my main inventory at all times
(as well as an " of LS).
 
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Daniel Morris wrote:
> "Marky Mark" <mdmota@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > I feel like more of a chalange, but nothing too imposible (ie
fasting)
> >
> Take my word for it, illiterate is a major pain. Do a few genoless
before
> trying that, because you will find it diffucult to genocide 13 types
of
> monsters one type at a time from thrones. And anyway it's fun to be
> confident enough to type "nothing" at that prompt.

Thanks for your advice... but having just completed my first conduct
assencion, and feeling pretty good, Ive gone for an illiterate, athiest
character, and figured since I wont be able to enchant armour, the only
character Id have a chance with is a priest, as I'll be able to try on
most of the armour I see and still try and get a half decent AC.

Luckily, I started with identify and healing spells, so Ive been able
to identify a lot of rings and wands (as well as a heap of scrolls and
spellbooks, but thats rather useless), and have managed to get down to
Dlv 21 with a pet master linch without too many problems, except from
encountering Yeenoghu at around Dlv 10.
I zapped him with sleep and ran, but was wondering if he have any
special attacks I should be wary of when I decide to try and take him
out (prob after castle and wishes)?

At Dlv 21 Ive encountered my first problem, fighting a trice, and got
the 'you feel yourself slowing down' message. Im not too worried, as I
have a ring of poly control on and wand of poly in main inventory, and
also poition of acid in bag of holding. Just wondering if I have enough
time to get a potion of acid out of my bag and drink it (am fast and
burdended), or should I just polymorph myself?

Also, what is the priest quest like? Do I NEED magic resistance /
reflection? (I know it is always recommended)
 
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Marky Mark wrote:
> Thanks for your advice... but having just completed my first conduct
> assencion, and feeling pretty good, Ive gone for an illiterate, athiest
> character, and figured since I wont be able to enchant armour, the only
> character Id have a chance with is a priest, as I'll be able to try on
> most of the armour I see and still try and get a half decent AC.

I've always thought illiterate athiest looks like about the hardest
possible conduct. You have no way of getting (un)holy water and no way
of IDing things.
>
> Luckily, I started with identify and healing spells,

Identify is insanely lucky, but you'll run out eventually. If I were
you, I'd start with just trying for an athiest ascension. That seems
like it'd be hard enough.


> At Dlv 21 Ive encountered my first problem, fighting a trice, and got
> the 'you feel yourself slowing down' message. Im not too worried, as I
> have a ring of poly control on and wand of poly in main inventory, and
> also poition of acid in bag of holding. Just wondering if I have enough
> time to get a potion of acid out of my bag and drink it (am fast and
> burdended), or should I just polymorph myself?
>
Poly yourself, if you've already got the ring on. If you don't have the
ring on, you may be screwed. I don't think you have time to get the
potion out. If I were you, I'd zap myself with the wand, whether the
ring is on or not. That way you only have the 1/15 chance of system
shock killing you, vs the much higher chance that you don't get an extra
turn in there.
 

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Andy Johnson <swervy.a@take-this.out.gmail.com> wrote in
news:d3rdqp$h1u$1@joe.rice.edu:

> Marky Mark wrote:
>> Thanks for your advice... but having just completed my first
>> conduct assencion, and feeling pretty good, Ive gone for an
>> illiterate, athiest character, and figured since I wont be able to
>> enchant armour, the only character Id have a chance with is a
>> priest, as I'll be able to try on most of the armour I see and
>> still try and get a half decent AC.
>
> I've always thought illiterate athiest looks like about the hardest
> possible conduct. You have no way of getting (un)holy water and no
> way of IDing things.

You can find (un)holy water.
You can make unholy water if you get your inventory cursed. For example
"This water's no good!" from a fountain will curse 1/5th of your
inventory, just have lots of named water potions in your inventory.

You can find if something is cursed by using your pet(s).

You can price-id anything you want to.
You can still engrave if you only engrave 'x'. So you can id wands, and
partially ID (hard vs. soft) gems. There isn't much point in IDing
scrolls or books. Rings can be IDed by droping them in a sink, or
possibly by wearing it. Armor may be IDed as soon as you wear it, or by
elimination. Some potions can be IDed via diping (Sickness, Polymorph,
(Extra/Full) Healing, Oil, Fruit Juice, Acid), some potions may be used
by monsters incudling most (all?) of the really bad ones.
Amulets, rings and armor may be IDed with potions of enlightenment.
 
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Andy Johnson wrote:
> Marky Mark wrote:
> > Thanks for your advice... but having just completed my first
conduct
> > assencion, and feeling pretty good, Ive gone for an illiterate,
athiest
> > character, and figured since I wont be able to enchant armour, the
only
> > character Id have a chance with is a priest, as I'll be able to try
on
> > most of the armour I see and still try and get a half decent AC.
>
> I've always thought illiterate athiest looks like about the hardest
> possible conduct. You have no way of getting (un)holy water and no
way
> of IDing things.
> >
> > Luckily, I started with identify and healing spells,
>
> Identify is insanely lucky, but you'll run out eventually. If I were
> you, I'd start with just trying for an athiest ascension. That seems
> like it'd be hard enough.

Very true, after my 20,000 of identify spell casting, I found it
impossible to identify anything!

> > At Dlv 21 Ive encountered my first problem, fighting a trice, and
got
> > the 'you feel yourself slowing down' message. Im not too worried,
as I
> > have a ring of poly control on and wand of poly in main inventory,
and
> > also poition of acid in bag of holding. Just wondering if I have
enough
> > time to get a potion of acid out of my bag and drink it (am fast
and
> > burdended), or should I just polymorph myself?
> >
> Poly yourself, if you've already got the ring on. If you don't have
the
> ring on, you may be screwed. I don't think you have time to get the
> potion out. If I were you, I'd zap myself with the wand, whether the
> ring is on or not. That way you only have the 1/15 chance of system
> shock killing you, vs the much higher chance that you don't get an
extra
> turn in there.

No worried, the ring was cursed and on, so I polyed into a gargoyle,
that was fine... however as soon as I managed to uncurse it and get the
ring off, I managed to encounter a titan (on medusa level), and whilst
running from his summoning storm, run into a poly trap, turn into an
ooze of sorts, break my +1 cloak and +2 dwarven mithril coat, and be
completely surrounded by monsters.

That and the fact it was no teleport, needless to say I didnt last too
much longer. But to get to medusa (DLV 23), not too bad for my first
illiterate athiest attempt? Think I'll try again!
 
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"Nathan" <ntspam2@netscape.net> writes:

> Jakob Creutzig wrote:
>
> > Illiterate is *hard*. People disagree on whether wishless or
> > genoless is harder, but I think most would agree that illiterate
> > is harder. IMHO it's not hard to go polyless, and after that,
> > one can aim at wishgenopolyless.
>
> I have 5 ascencions, all polyless. That's not even something I
> think about. One of my ascensions was also genoless, and that was
> a genuine challenge for me. On the other hand, I *fear* wishless,
> and I can't even contemplate an illiterate ascension.

I think that wishless alone is quite easy, as long as you polypile.
Wishpolyless is a bit tricky since you might lack some gear; however,
with patience, nurses, foocubi and alchemy you can readily achieve
a considerable amount of HPs. [Pudding--farming for gear even makes
wishpolyless atheists easy, btw, unless you quit of boredom or despise
such methods.]

For genoless, I'd say it's making the game much more random.
I had ascensions with barely more than the minimum of liches
and almost no other summoning monsters, which were quite easy.
In other games, these arch-liches kept summoning each other and
filling up the level with tough nasties, and it was uphill all
the way. Here, it all seems to depend on whether the first
storm hits you when you're well-prepared or before.

Illiterate is really hard not only because you lack quite some
very useful gear (scroll/spell of id, enchant, magic mapping etc),
suffer heavily in the AC department (protection-praying is even
more braindamagingly boring than puddingfarming alone), and
the severe lack of slashing power (those +7 damage is really
missing), but, for me, because I never made it further than
to the castle without eating a fortune cookie, then quitting
in disgust ;-).


Best,
Jakob
 
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james wrote:

> Andy Johnson <swervy.a@take-this.out.gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's easy enough to see how you might go wishless though, if you didn't
>> get any wishes before the castle, and if you'd hit some bones files or
>> otherwise got extremely lucky and ended up with tons of nice equipment
>> by that point.
>
> That's one way, but what about the players who decide to do wishless
> before they even generate the character? And those who remain wishless
> despite finding a WoW 0:3 in the first store?

Well, they'll probably get more wishless ascensions and fewer non-wishless
ascensions on average. Apart from that, I don't really see the distinction
as meaningful. The fact that a character finds a WoW and elects not to use
it doesn't make the game any harder than if it had not been found,
neglecting the minor complication that some other useful item could have
been generated instead.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Evelyn the dog, having undergone further modification, pondered the
significance of short-person behavior in pedal-depressed panchromatic
resonance and other highly ambient domains... "Arf", she said.
 
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Quoting Daniel Morris <puterdan@optonline.net>:
>Take my word for it, illiterate is a major pain. Do a few genoless before
>trying that, because you will find it diffucult to genocide 13 types of
>monsters one type at a time from thrones. And anyway it's fun to be
>confident enough to type "nothing" at that prompt.

13? Master lich, arch-lich, mind flayer, master mind flayer, disenchanter,
green slime. Beyond those six, I can't see that anything is vital [1]. In
particular, the junior liches are only typically genocided because a
blessed scrolls gets them all.

I'm guessing this '13' is all L, h, and R; but of course you don't need
that.

[1] Vital is a stretch; I often end up going genoless...
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damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk wrote:
>Quoting Daniel Morris <puterdan@optonline.net>:
>>Take my word for it, illiterate is a major pain. Do a few genoless before
>>trying that, because you will find it diffucult to genocide 13 types of
>>monsters one type at a time from thrones. And anyway it's fun to be
>>confident enough to type "nothing" at that prompt.
>
>13? Master lich, arch-lich, mind flayer, master mind flayer, disenchanter,
>green slime. Beyond those six, I can't see that anything is vital [1].

Even disenchanter is pushing it for "vital"; I usually meet about two
all game.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
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Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk wrote:
> >Quoting Daniel Morris <puterdan@optonline.net>:
> >>Take my word for it, illiterate is a major pain. Do a few genoless before
> >>trying that, because you will find it diffucult to genocide 13 types of
> >>monsters one type at a time from thrones. And anyway it's fun to be
> >>confident enough to type "nothing" at that prompt.
> >
> >13? Master lich, arch-lich, mind flayer, master mind flayer, disenchanter,
> >green slime. Beyond those six, I can't see that anything is vital [1].
>
> Even disenchanter is pushing it for "vital"; I usually meet about two
> all game.

IMHO, disenchanters aren't a serious problem anyway. To disenchant
armour, they must get past your magic cancellation, and artifact
weapons will resist being disenchanted 90% of the time.

Green slimes aren't a threat either - again, they are affected by your
MC, and if you do get slimed, just zap yourself with a wand of fire.
Eva.

--
Eva Myers, Computer Officer, Statistical Laboratory, University of Cambridge
Email: erm1001@cam.ac.uk WWW: http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~eva/
Ignorance and deception can't save anybody. *Knowing* saves them.
 
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Eva Myers <erm1001@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>IMHO, disenchanters aren't a serious problem anyway. To disenchant
>armour, they must get past your magic cancellation, and artifact
>weapons will resist being disenchanted 90% of the time.
>
>Green slimes aren't a threat either - again, they are affected by your
>MC, and if you do get slimed, just zap yourself with a wand of fire.

Additionally, both monsters are slower than a late-game player and so
can often be evaded.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
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David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> Quoting Daniel Morris <puterdan@optonline.net>:
> >Take my word for it, illiterate is a major pain. Do a few genoless before
> >trying that, because you will find it diffucult to genocide 13 types of
> >monsters one type at a time from thrones. And anyway it's fun to be
> >confident enough to type "nothing" at that prompt.
>
> 13? Master lich, arch-lich, mind flayer, master mind flayer, disenchanter,
> green slime. Beyond those six, I can't see that anything is vital [1].

I don't think one should waste a geno on disenchanters. They only
disenchant weapons that hit them, and for an illiterate char, this
is a minor issue anyway.

Best,
Jakob
 

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In article <apu0m8w2n4.fsf@fb04349.mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>,
Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>
>
>"Marky Mark" <mdmota@yahoo.com.au> writes:
>
>> What would you guys say the next easiest conduct is? Wishless (prob
>> could have done this game, only thing I wished for that I needed for
>> ascention kit was reflection, and theres other ways around that)?
>> Illiterate (obviously only for combat wombat)?
>
>Illiterate is *hard*. People disagree on whether wishless or
>genoless is harder

I've decided that genoless may have some benefits that make the game no
more difficult on balance.

Think about what you would genocide. If you genocide too many things,
it just means you'll be facing more powerful monsters later.

So what do people genocide? Mind flayers? Okay, that's reasonable,
since MMF's are very annoying. Liches? Sure, I guess. But neither of
these monsters is all that scary. Flayers and Liches respect Elbereth.
Liches can't touch you if you have MR.

Okay so what else? Cockatrices? Green Slimes?

I go through the list of things I could genocide, and I get to the end
and realize that nothing is really worth it.

Maybe I could make the case for genociding Mimics, provided the scroll
comes early enough (e.g., a blessed ?oG before I've reached any shops,
certainly before minetown.)

I'm serious.

So when I get to the end of the list of monsters that are sensible to
genocide, and come up empty, except maybe Mimics, I suddenly find it
quite easy to play genocideless.

Wishless is a little tougher, but only because of the need for speed,
reflection, and magic resistance. Each of these that you manage to
acquire (or start with), makes it 33% easier to go wishless. And if you
have no objection to polypiling and/or farming, wishless isn't such an
incredible handicap either.

I agree with you completely that Foodless, Pacifist, and Atheist are all
much more difficult challenges than genoless or wishless, and Illiteracy
is up there on that list, maybe even on top of it.
 

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In article <d3ol85$5hu$1@joe.rice.edu>,
Andy Johnson <swervy.a@take-this.out.gmail.com> wrote:

>It's easy enough to see how you might go wishless though, if you didn't
>get any wishes before the castle, and if you'd hit some bones files or
>otherwise got extremely lucky and ended up with tons of nice equipment
>by that point.

That's one way, but what about the players who decide to do wishless
before they even generate the character? And those who remain wishless
despite finding a WoW 0:3 in the first store?
 

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In article <qUF*I1oMq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>>13? Master lich, arch-lich, mind flayer, master mind flayer, disenchanter,
>>green slime. Beyond those six, I can't see that anything is vital [1].
>
>Even disenchanter is pushing it for "vital"; I usually meet about two
>all game.

The only genocide target that is entirely beneficial, is "m" (all
mimics), and that only if you get the genocide before reaching any
significant number of shops.

Liches and Flayers can be dealt with pretty easily; MMF's are annoying
but not dangerous, and Liches can be quite a boon to the game, with
their summoning ability and the great loot that the summoned monsters
drop. They can't touch you with MR, and they all respect Elbereth, so
they are hardly the problem that justifies a Genocide.

I'll come close to agreeing about Green Slimes, but not enough to say
that they are "vital", and Disenchanters are sometimes the only thing
that allows you to have +7 weapons and armor instead of +6.

The problem with all these genocides, is it merely increases the
population of non-genocidable monsters later. If that's a good trade
in your book, then do it, but I find it amusing that "Genoless" is
regarded as some kind of exceptional challenge, when the fact is, it
makes the game easier in some respects, to my mind, enough to make it a
balance.

But I'm serious about doing "m's", and if pudding farming is eliminated
it will seem an even more appropriate strategy.
 
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Quoting james <fishbowl@conservatory.com>:
>So what do people genocide? Mind flayers? Okay, that's reasonable,
>since MMF's are very annoying. Liches? Sure, I guess. But neither of
>these monsters is all that scary. Flayers and Liches respect Elbereth.
>Liches can't touch you if you have MR.

Summoning?
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David Damerell wrote:

> Quoting james <fishbowl@conservatory.com>:
>>So what do people genocide? Mind flayers? Okay, that's reasonable,
>>since MMF's are very annoying. Liches? Sure, I guess. But neither
>>of
>>these monsters is all that scary. Flayers and Liches respect
>>Elbereth. Liches can't touch you if you have MR.
>
> Summoning?

Don't forget cursing.(yes with elbereth this isn't much of a problem
but i have been jumped by two or three Arch and master liches on some
levels so getting stuff cursed can still happen.)

One Genocides Liches not just because they can harm the player, but
because they slow your game down with summoning. Since they port next
to you all the damn time their summoning tends to surround you with
monsters instead of creating an army which you can detour around or
run away from.

Jorge