Keeping your level low, and weapon selection

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Just a couple questions, things that strike me as strange

My priestess just died a horrible death at the hands of the Quest
Nemesis. I felt like I could handle him (I had about 180 HP and 599
pwr with which to cast extra healing as often as I wanted; -17 AC if I
wore a +3 ring of protection). I still think I could have handled him.
But he just kept summoning more and more enemies...dragons, vampire
lords, a master mind flayer, it never stopped. I could cast charm
monster at a 100% success rate, but the big immune ones just started to
pile up. I tried escaping upstairs, but he just came with me and
filled the level ABOVE me with enemies, until I had to dig back down to
escape.

Anyway, I'm fairly sure that fight wouldn't have been bad if I had been
level 16 or so, but I was at level 30 due to several incubi, wraiths,
and polymorphing into a new self with level drain resistance. I wasn't
gaining many HP; after a point, the level gains just seemed to be
useless. Meanwhile, I was still having trouble fighting giant zombies,
while the levels filled up with higher and higher level monsters.

What's the consensus on this? All the advice I've heard is "level
gains are good," with the minor exception of the protection racket.
This is my first good priest; other classes do seem to benefit more
from the level gains, so maybe it depends on that. Is there a point in
your games where you would pass up three wraith corpses if you couldn't
tin them for later? Or is the "polymorphing to a new self" + level
drain resistance a surefire recipe for level gains whenever I want
them, so no harm in passing up those wraiths? Are there certain
experience levels you consider "too high" for certain parts of the
game?

--------

The other problem I had was an inability to find a decent weapon as a
chaotic elven priest(ess). I got Stormbringer and Fire Brand by
sacrificing, and I maxed both of their skills out at "basic".
Meanwhile my blessed rusty corroded +2 mace was little better.

I knew the spell "create monster," so I could have sacrificed for more
artifacts, but what would I do with them? It just seems there's no
decent artifact weapon a chaotic Priest can use. Stormbringer was good
except against demons, because of the level drain, but at basic it just
felt too weak otherwise, even with +5 enchantment. Greyswandir might
be better for demons, if we overlook that I'd have to wish for it
(likely multiple attempts; at that stage in the game I'd have a 50/50
chance each time), would still be restricted to "unskilled," AND I'd
get blasted by its power. Or maybe I should just stick with a unicorn
horn at "skilled," the next best choice I could find.

Is there something I'm missing? Granted, most of my best characters
have been samurai, valkyries, hard-hitting melee characters; maybe my
feeling of weakness was just my not being used to playing a priest.
But I couldn't shake the feeling that at this stage in the game, as a
level 30 character with a -17 AC, and a full ascension kit sans a bag
of holding (still unburdened), every fight was harder than it ought to
be. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

rmcneive@andrew.cmu.edu wrote:

> Anyway, I'm fairly sure that fight wouldn't have been bad if I had been
> level 16 or so, but I was at level 30 due to several incubi, wraiths,
> and polymorphing into a new self with level drain resistance. I wasn't
> gaining many HP; after a point, the level gains just seemed to be
> useless. Meanwhile, I was still having trouble fighting giant zombies,
> while the levels filled up with higher and higher level monsters.
>
> What's the consensus on this? All the advice I've heard is "level
> gains are good," with the minor exception of the protection racket.

I haven't seen this advice here much. Over my last 11 ascensions or so the
average level of my characters is 18. There are limited reasons to
increasing your experience level: class specific abilities (this probably
won't be an issue above level 17), skill slots, leveling up for the quest
(14 is good enough), and hit point gains (but there are other usually
better ways of getting hit points). Oh yeah, also spell damage is greater
at higher level.

> This is my first good priest; other classes do seem to benefit more
> from the level gains, so maybe it depends on that. Is there a point in
> your games where you would pass up three wraith corpses if you couldn't
> tin them for later?

If I'm not looking for the extra skill slots I usually quit eating wraiths
somewhere around level 15-18.

I almost always do the quest at exactly level 14.

> The other problem I had was an inability to find a decent weapon as a
> chaotic elven priest(ess). I got Stormbringer and Fire Brand by
> sacrificing, and I maxed both of their skills out at "basic".
> Meanwhile my blessed rusty corroded +2 mace was little better.

I've ascended two priests. One used his original mace, enchanted to +7,
right up to the finish. The other finished with Frost Brand and Magicbane.

A unicorn horn might be fun to try sometime; priests can get to skilled
with these. They're two handed, though, so the usual caution is required.

I think it's a good thing that priests are only mediocre in melee.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

wrote on 11 May 2005 17:19:26 -0700:
> My priestess just died a horrible death at the hands of the Quest
> Nemesis. I felt like I could handle him (I had about 180 HP and 599
> pwr with which to cast extra healing as often as I wanted; -17 AC if I
> wore a +3 ring of protection). I still think I could have handled him.
> But he just kept summoning more and more enemies...dragons, vampire
> lords, a master mind flayer, it never stopped. I could cast charm
> monster at a 100% success rate, but the big immune ones just started to
> pile up. I tried escaping upstairs, but he just came with me and
> filled the level ABOVE me with enemies, until I had to dig back down to
> escape.

I would have worn a ring of conflict. That tends to reduce the need for
healing. More AC would have been nice, but not essential.

Then I would have spent some of those 599 power points casting 16d6
damage magic missiles. I think you would run out of monsters before
running out of mana...


--
"Sometimes I stand by the door and look into the darkness. Then I
am reminded how dearly I cherish my boredom, and what a precious
commodity is so much misery." -- Jack Vance

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

<rmcneive@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:1115857166.931284.200570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Just a couple questions, things that strike me as strange
>
> My priestess just died a horrible death at the hands of the Quest
> Nemesis. I felt like I could handle him (I had about 180 HP and 599
> pwr with which to cast extra healing as often as I wanted; -17 AC if I
> wore a +3 ring of protection). I still think I could have handled him.
> But he just kept summoning more and more enemies...dragons, vampire
> lords, a master mind flayer, it never stopped. I could cast charm
> monster at a 100% success rate, but the big immune ones just started to
> pile up. I tried escaping upstairs, but he just came with me and
> filled the level ABOVE me with enemies, until I had to dig back down to
> escape.
>
> Anyway, I'm fairly sure that fight wouldn't have been bad if I had been
> level 16 or so, but I was at level 30 due to several incubi, wraiths,
> and polymorphing into a new self with level drain resistance. I wasn't
> gaining many HP; after a point, the level gains just seemed to be
> useless. Meanwhile, I was still having trouble fighting giant zombies,
> while the levels filled up with higher and higher level monsters.
>
> What's the consensus on this? All the advice I've heard is "level
> gains are good," with the minor exception of the protection racket.
> This is my first good priest; other classes do seem to benefit more
> from the level gains, so maybe it depends on that. Is there a point in
> your games where you would pass up three wraith corpses if you couldn't
> tin them for later? Or is the "polymorphing to a new self" + level
> drain resistance a surefire recipe for level gains whenever I want
> them, so no harm in passing up those wraiths? Are there certain
> experience levels you consider "too high" for certain parts of the
> game?
<Snip the rest>

Ok, the 'Level gains are ok' advice is bad in most cases, (A wizard may have
need for those extra levels to boost spell damage) Alchemy and creative
scroll use will gave you much better returns for HP or PW than level gains.
Altar camping can also provide HP's and Protection (max your naked AC by
donating gold first if possible, there's no limit to divine protection other
than having it revoked)

As for weapon selection, Hammer is one of the classes that priests can
become expert in, so Mojo is the best meele artifact for a P. Morning stars
and flails work well for non artifact weapons (better base damage by a point
or so) A chaotic might have to wish for Mojo, but it's worth it. Just use
something else (rubber chicken?) on Orcus if you really want his wand.

Hope this helps
Danny
Tuck-P Ascended Geno/poly/polyselfless

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:
<snip>
>
> Even a +0 Fire Brand at basic is enormously better than a +2 mace at
> expert except against resistant targets. Same goes for Stormbringer.
Don't
> obsess over weapon skills; before they came in, Basic was all we got.

Er, that's not exactly true. +0 firebrand@ basic is pretty even to +2
-1 damaged mace at expert. Consider Fire Brand +0 at basic against
non-large target w/o fire resistance:

(D8)*2 + 0 skill bonus + other damage bonus that doesn't double except
skill bonus

= 2-16 + other damage bonus

+2 damaged mace at expert:

D6+1 + 2 from enchantment + 2 skill bonus + other bonus

= 5-10 + other damage bonus

The difference is only 1.5 point per hit. It's pretty negligible
considering the fire resistant monsters.

However, Stormbringer probably is greatly better because of other perks
Stormy has.


>
> You should have used one of these good weapons. Also, when the
summoning
> storm started, you should have used one of your means of emergency
retreat
> (if you weren't carrying some, there's an error) to go and look for a
> means to deal with it; either conflict or attack spells (as a level
30
> with 599 mana, you can cast a lot of attack spells) will thin out a
storm
> in no time.

As a priest at lvl 30, I'd forget about the weapons, and go with magic
missle (and conflict if he's got it). Only use the Stormy if I really
have to (Silver dragons and such with reflection comes to mind).

-K

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting Kremti <kremti@gmail.com>:
> >David Damerell wrote:
> ><snip>
> >>Even a +0 Fire Brand at basic is enormously better than a +2 mace
at
> >>expert except against resistant targets. Same goes for
Stormbringer. Don't
> >>obsess over weapon skills; before they came in, Basic was all we
got.
> >Er, that's not exactly true. +0 firebrand@ basic is pretty even to
+2
> >-1 damaged mace at expert. Consider Fire Brand +0 at basic against
> >non-large target w/o fire resistance:
>
> Many of the named targets are large, but yes, I withdraw the
"enormously".

Yes, and that makes different of somewhere around 5 points instead of
1.5, and then, many of the named targets are fire resistant as well.

>
> ... of course, "enchanting the Fire Brand" might be another approach
to
> the situation.

Which will definitely swing the advantage towards Fire Brand. I just
don't think he'll be satisfied with the melee fighting power of the
priest in any case. At lvl 30 w/ the humongo amount of power, using
Magic Missle liberally in the tight sport is probably the way to go
backed up with whichever the melee weapon he feels like using ATM.

-K

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Daniel Morris <puterdan@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> <rmcneive@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
> news:1115857166.931284.200570@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> Just a couple questions, things that strike me as strange
>>

>> What's the consensus on this? All the advice I've heard is "level
>> gains are good," with the minor exception of the protection racket.
>> This is my first good priest; other classes do seem to benefit more
>> from the level gains, so maybe it depends on that. Is there a point in
>> your games where you would pass up three wraith corpses if you couldn't
>> tin them for later? Or is the "polymorphing to a new self" + level
>> drain resistance a surefire recipe for level gains whenever I want
>> them, so no harm in passing up those wraiths? Are there certain
>> experience levels you consider "too high" for certain parts of the
>> game?
> <Snip the rest>
>
> Ok, the 'Level gains are ok' advice is bad in most cases, (A wizard may have
> need for those extra levels to boost spell damage) Alchemy and creative
> scroll use will gave you much better returns for HP or PW than level gains.
> Altar camping can also provide HP's and Protection (max your naked AC by
> donating gold first if possible, there's no limit to divine protection other
> than having it revoked)

Nitpick: -128

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting <rmcneive@andrew.cmu.edu>:
>My priestess just died a horrible death at the hands of the Quest
>Nemesis.
[To a summoning storm]
>The other problem I had was an inability to find a decent weapon as a
>chaotic elven priest(ess). I got Stormbringer and Fire Brand by
>sacrificing, and I maxed both of their skills out at "basic".
>Meanwhile my blessed rusty corroded +2 mace was little better.

Even a +0 Fire Brand at basic is enormously better than a +2 mace at
expert except against resistant targets. Same goes for Stormbringer. Don't
obsess over weapon skills; before they came in, Basic was all we got.

You should have used one of these good weapons. Also, when the summoning
storm started, you should have used one of your means of emergency retreat
(if you weren't carrying some, there's an error) to go and look for a
means to deal with it; either conflict or attack spells (as a level 30
with 599 mana, you can cast a lot of attack spells) will thin out a storm
in no time.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Second Thursday, May.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

rmcneive@andrew.cmu.edu writes:

> What's the consensus on this? All the advice I've heard is "level
> gains are good," with the minor exception of the protection racket.

It seems to me that most experienced players in this newsgroup do NOT
think so. As you have seen, higher explevel means more dangerous enemies.
True, you gain better score killing harder monsters, but they are also
more likely to kill you or generally causing trouble.

> from the level gains, so maybe it depends on that. Is there a point in
> your games where you would pass up three wraith corpses if you couldn't
> tin them for later? Or is the "polymorphing to a new self" + level

I generally do NOT eat wraith corpses. In the early game the explevels can
be gained fast enough by just killing monsters, and by the time level
gaining seems to take wraiths or potions of gain level, you normally don't
need more explevels unless you need more skill slots. The exception is
when you already feel ready to do the Quest and have all the equipment and
intrinsics you think you need, and have other attributes good enough, but
not enough exp.
BTW, you CAN'T tin wraith corpses.

--
Jukka Lahtinen

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Kremti <kremti@gmail.com>:
>David Damerell wrote:
><snip>
>>Even a +0 Fire Brand at basic is enormously better than a +2 mace at
>>expert except against resistant targets. Same goes for Stormbringer. Don't
>>obsess over weapon skills; before they came in, Basic was all we got.
>Er, that's not exactly true. +0 firebrand@ basic is pretty even to +2
>-1 damaged mace at expert. Consider Fire Brand +0 at basic against
>non-large target w/o fire resistance:

Many of the named targets are large, but yes, I withdraw the "enormously".

.... of course, "enchanting the Fire Brand" might be another approach to
the situation.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Second Thursday, May.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

<rmcneive@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:

> My priestess just died a horrible death at the hands of the Quest
> Nemesis. I felt like I could handle him (I had about 180 HP and 599
> pwr with which to cast extra healing as often as I wanted; -17 AC if I
> wore a +3 ring of protection). I still think I could have handled him.
> But he just kept summoning more and more enemies...dragons, vampire
> lords, a master mind flayer, it never stopped.
>
> Anyway, I'm fairly sure that fight wouldn't have been bad if I had been
> level 16 or so, but I was at level 30 due to several incubi, wraiths,
> and polymorphing into a new self with level drain resistance. I wasn't
> gaining many HP; after a point, the level gains just seemed to be
> useless. Meanwhile, I was still having trouble fighting giant zombies,
> while the levels filled up with higher and higher level monsters.
>
> [...]
>
> The other problem I had was an inability to find a decent weapon as a
> chaotic elven priest(ess). I got Stormbringer and Fire Brand by
> sacrificing, and I maxed both of their skills out at "basic".
> Meanwhile my blessed rusty corroded +2 mace was little better.

Chaotic priestesses are my favorite characters: I just finished
ascending one at experience level 30 two days ago. Here are a few
observations, some of which reinforce what others have noted in this
thread:

* Compared to many other classes, priestesses are weak melee fighters.
What kills my low-level priestesses more than anything else: fighting
two or more monsters at once, especially when the priestesses aren't
fast. You should adopt a play style to avoid such combat situations, by
running away more than you are used to or (perhaps) more than you think
you should. Play priestesses more defensively than offensively.

* Your character's AC was far too weak for level 30, and too weak (in
my opinion) for the Quest regardless of character level. My priestess
crested at AC -44 before she ever hit XL 30. She was probably ca. AC
-30 before the Quest. This is part of the defensive mindset: go for AC
stronger than you would for a more offensively potent character. If my
priestess starts with "healing" then I'll typically have her forgo
armor that reduces the spell's chance, so that she can repair HP. But
if she doesn't start with "healing," then I'll have her load up on
metal armor and helmets to get the AC stronger. (In the latter case
I'll also have her store the robe and wear some other cloak, mostly to
avoid robe destruction via polymorph.)

* One symptom of being non-offensive characters: Priestesses can't
advance weapon skill in any bladed weapon, excepting the one-level
advancement for weapons granted through offering. This is a *serious*
handicap for low-level priestesses; but in a higher-level character
with sufficient AC, I find this to be a minor problem. My priestesses
usually just keep the starting mace, enchant it up, and advance to
"expert" skill. Even then they whack off at most 20ish points from an
enemy. But as long as the priestesses have strong AC, they can
withstand blows with little effect. Net result: they still kill as
surely as a barbarian would -- they just take a few extra moves to do
so.

* Priestesses can't advance their spell skill in what you'd normally
think of as attack or defense spells. Fortunately, with higher level
and higher personal stats the characters can learn the core spells you
really need. By that point, the lack of a strong melee weapon is far
less critical; indeed, a level 30 priestess shouldn't be relying on
just her in-hand weapon to save her from or in melee.

* If my priestesses do sacrifice, the only artifact I really care about
is Stormbringer. And I want that mostly because it feels so thoroughly
chaotic and just fits my image of the character type. It's also helpful
when fighting trolls, since they then reanimate with lower HP. (In this
most recent ascension, the priestess did not sacrifice at all --
sacrificing is not a big part of my game play.)

* I've found one chaotic artifact worth wishing (not sacrificing) for:
the Master Key of Thievery. It (effectively) increases your character's
AC by halving the physical damage she takes. And once the priestess
reaches level 12, she can teleport away from bad situations like the
one that killed yours; with the Master Key, she can control that
teleport -- a quite handy defensive tactic. The Key also gives warning,
another handy (but not indispensible) defensive device.

* In the early game, you want your priestess to know "healing," then
"extra healing" for HP recovery, especially as her magic power
increases so much more quickly than does HP. The spells are a way to
convert power points to hit points. But as the character levels up she
recovers HP more quickly. When my priestess reached level 20 or so, she
stopped casting "extra healing" because her HP recovered so well. So
that is an advantage to higher level: faster regeneration.

* Once your character has sufficient ability, have her learn "magic
missile." (I've spent Castle wishes on this spellbook.) I don't know if
this is literally true, but it seems this way to me: as your character
gains level, her magic-missile zaps do more damage. My level 30
priestess was vaporizing medium-strength monsters in one zap, and
krakens (e.g.) in two zaps; and she was firing with 100% success rate.
If you can line monsters up near a wall, you can take out multiple
monsters with one zap. This is the one offensive/attack spell a
priestess should have.

* And finally, get her a ring of conflict. Conflict has the beauty of
being simultaneously an offensive and defensive tactic: the monsters
are attacked and killed (offensive) while leaving you mostly alone
(defensive). When you are wearing conflict, every monster becomes a
temporary quasi-pet fighting all the other quasi-pets on your behalf.
("I fight for Zev!")

I've played this game not quite a year yet, and thus consider myself
far from expert. But these are things that I've discovered while
playing mostly priestesses. I hope at least some of them can help you.

--
Bobby Schmidt

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Bobby Schmidt wrote:

> * One symptom of being non-offensive characters: Priestesses can't
> advance weapon skill in any bladed weapon, excepting the one-level
> advancement for weapons granted through offering.

I'd call most polearms "bladed weapons", not that this helps much.

They can also become skilled in unicorn horns, which are actually a pretty
good, although two-handed, weapon. This is probably also moot for
low-level priest(esse)s

> * Once your character has sufficient ability, have her learn "magic
> missile." (I've spent Castle wishes on this spellbook.)

I did this with my recent Wizard, right before someone pointed out that a
magic marker would have been a better wish (not that it was a big deal in
this game; I had wishes coming out my ears). You can write a spellbook of
MM with 30 marker charges or less.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:

> Bobby Schmidt wrote:
>
> > * One symptom of being non-offensive characters: Priestesses can't
> > advance weapon skill in any bladed weapon, excepting the one-level
> > advancement for weapons granted through offering.
>
> I'd call most polearms "bladed weapons", not that this helps much.
>
> They can also become skilled in unicorn horns, which are actually a pretty
> good, although two-handed, weapon. This is probably also moot for
> low-level priest(esse)s

Hmm, yeah, I guess you are technically right about bladed weapons. I
was thinking of the various sword and mini-sword types, the sorts of
things one usually gets through offering.

As for the unicorn horn: A low-level Priest(ess) has to survive and
become strong enough to kill a unicorn first. Unicorns are fast and
strike multiple times per round. And they are difficult to line up for
even a remote hit, unless your character is fast, or corners them in a
confined no-teleport zone such as Sokoban.

The usual caveat around two-handed weapons -- the fear of them becoming
cursed -- is somewhat less severe for Priest(ess)es, as "remove curse"
is their special spell.

>
> > * Once your character has sufficient ability, have her learn "magic
> > missile." (I've spent Castle wishes on this spellbook.)
>
> I did this with my recent Wizard, right before someone pointed out that a
> magic marker would have been a better wish (not that it was a big deal in
> this game; I had wishes coming out my ears). You can write a spellbook of
> MM with 30 marker charges or less.

The magic marker works for Wizards, who can credibly try writing spells
they don't yet know. Priest(ess)es have almost zero chance of
successfully doing so.

--
Bobby Schmidt

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Bobby Schmidt wrote:
> Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>Bobby Schmidt wrote:
>>
>>
>>>* One symptom of being non-offensive characters: Priestesses can't
>>>advance weapon skill in any bladed weapon, excepting the one-level
>>>advancement for weapons granted through offering.
>>
>>I'd call most polearms "bladed weapons", not that this helps much.
>>
>>They can also become skilled in unicorn horns, which are actually a pretty
>>good, although two-handed, weapon. This is probably also moot for
>>low-level priest(esse)s
>
>
> Hmm, yeah, I guess you are technically right about bladed weapons. I
> was thinking of the various sword and mini-sword types, the sorts of
> things one usually gets through offering.
>
> As for the unicorn horn: A low-level Priest(ess) has to survive and
> become strong enough to kill a unicorn first. Unicorns are fast and
> strike multiple times per round. And they are difficult to line up for
> even a remote hit, unless your character is fast, or corners them in a
> confined no-teleport zone such as Sokoban.
>
> The usual caveat around two-handed weapons -- the fear of them becoming
> cursed -- is somewhat less severe for Priest(ess)es, as "remove curse"
> is their special spell.
>

Famous last words: "I think I'll just wield this two-handed weapon so I
can cast remove curse on it."

If you've been lurking in this newsgroup, you'll remember a certain post
a while ago. Someone got their unicorn horn cursed on his ascension run.
He wielded it, since the remove curse spell only works on weapons and
armor unless it's at Expert. Then he tried casting remove curse.

"You cannot cast spells if both your hands are welded to a weapon."

And you know the survivability of someone with Unskilled in whatever
skill class unihorns are, wielding a cursed +0 unihorn, and having no
other unihorn or useful item in inventory, unable to open his bag of
holding because his hands are welded to a unihorn, despite the bag
containing many items that could've saved him, on a level in Gehenomm
that's no-teleport, during a summoning storm with Double-Trouble Rodneys
and your friendly neighborhood horde from Summon Nasties, during an
ascension run.

Think about it.

Prayer? Gehennom. Remove curse spell? Hands welded. Scroll of remove
curse? In BoH. Holy water? In BoH. BoH? Hands welded. Wands? Hands
welded. Unihorn? Cursed and welded to hands. Nearest upstairs? Blocked
by "Summon Nasties" horde. Kill horde? Hands welded to bad weapon,
spells unusable. Teleport? In BoH. Level teleport? In BoH. Any possible
item to be used at last minute? In BoH.

Hey, look, a disenchanter. Now your unihorn is -1. Hey, look, a
mindflayer. There goes your remove curse spell, as well as making your
trip up ten times longer since you have to remap. Oh, and you forgot
which scroll was remove curse. Hey, look, a Demilich. Now your BoH is
cursed. Good luck getting the holy water, if you can. Hey, look, a green
slime. Potion of acid? BoH. Scroll of fire? BoH. Prayer? Gehennom.

DYWYPI?

--
____ (__)
/ \ (oo) -Shadow
|Moo. > \/
\____/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Bobby Schmidt wrote:

> The usual caveat around two-handed weapons -- the fear of them becoming
> cursed -- is somewhat less severe for Priest(ess)es, as "remove curse"
> is their special spell.

Which they can't cast when wielding a cursed unihorn

>>> * Once your character has sufficient ability, have her learn "magic
>>> missile." (I've spent Castle wishes on this spellbook.)
>>
>> I did this with my recent Wizard, right before someone pointed out that
>> a magic marker would have been a better wish (not that it was a big deal
>> in this game; I had wishes coming out my ears). You can write a
>> spellbook of MM with 30 marker charges or less.
>
> The magic marker works for Wizards, who can credibly try writing spells
> they don't yet know. Priest(ess)es have almost zero chance of
> successfully doing so.

Right, good point. The chance will actually be significantly better than
zero if they have maxed luck (approximately 32%), but this is still pretty
risky.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Richard Bos wrote:

> Shadow <shadow@shadowedlogic.uni.cc> wrote:
>> Bobby Schmidt wrote:
>>> Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:
>>>> Bobby Schmidt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> * One symptom of being non-offensive characters: Priestesses can't
>>>>> advance weapon skill in any bladed weapon, excepting the one-level
>>>>> advancement for weapons granted through offering.
>>>>
>>>> I'd call most polearms "bladed weapons", not that this helps much.
>>>
>>> Hmm, yeah, I guess you are technically right about bladed weapons. I
>>> was thinking of the various sword and mini-sword types, the sorts of
>>> things one usually gets through offering.
>
> Mind you, Priests _should_ be restricted in any bladed weapon, and this
> should include pole-arms. The restriction of legend is against drawing
> blood, not against using swords specifically.

What legend is this, out of curiosity? I know it's a D&D restriction, but
I never realized it had other sources. (And the fact that it's a D&D
restriction should in no way dictate the NetHack behaviour).

What freakin' religion says it's okay to bash in someone's skull with a
ridged hunk of metal on a stick, but blanches at a little cut?

--
Benjamin Lewis

Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Shadow <shadow@shadowedlogic.uni.cc> wrote:

> Bobby Schmidt wrote:
> > Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:
> >
> >>Bobby Schmidt wrote:
> >>
> >>>* One symptom of being non-offensive characters: Priestesses can't
> >>>advance weapon skill in any bladed weapon, excepting the one-level
> >>>advancement for weapons granted through offering.
> >>
> >>I'd call most polearms "bladed weapons", not that this helps much.
> >
> > Hmm, yeah, I guess you are technically right about bladed weapons. I
> > was thinking of the various sword and mini-sword types, the sorts of
> > things one usually gets through offering.

Mind you, Priests _should_ be restricted in any bladed weapon, and this
should include pole-arms. The restriction of legend is against drawing
blood, not against using swords specifically. Strictly speaking, they
should not be allowed to use spear-like weapons or pointed missile
weapons, either, and should probably be stronger than Basic in slings.
And anyone who has read the Canterbury Tales knows that they should also
be allowed to ride.

> > The usual caveat around two-handed weapons -- the fear of them becoming
> > cursed -- is somewhat less severe for Priest(ess)es, as "remove curse"
> > is their special spell.
>
> Famous last words: "I think I'll just wield this two-handed weapon so I
> can cast remove curse on it."
>
> If you've been lurking in this newsgroup, you'll remember a certain post
> a while ago. Someone got their unicorn horn cursed on his ascension run.
> He wielded it, since the remove curse spell only works on weapons and
> armor unless it's at Expert. Then he tried casting remove curse.

Stupid question, perhaps (and admittely irrelevant to your main point,
with which I agree at least somewhat), but what was that Priest doing in
Gehennom _without_ Clerical spell (including RC) at Expert?

Richard

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Richard Bos wrote:
> Shadow <shadow@shadowedlogic.uni.cc> wrote:
>
>
>>Bobby Schmidt wrote:
>>
>>>Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bobby Schmidt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>* One symptom of being non-offensive characters: Priestesses can't
>>>>>advance weapon skill in any bladed weapon, excepting the one-level
>>>>>advancement for weapons granted through offering.
>>>>
>>>>I'd call most polearms "bladed weapons", not that this helps much.
>>>
>>>Hmm, yeah, I guess you are technically right about bladed weapons. I
>>>was thinking of the various sword and mini-sword types, the sorts of
>>>things one usually gets through offering.
>
>
> Mind you, Priests _should_ be restricted in any bladed weapon, and this
> should include pole-arms. The restriction of legend is against drawing
> blood, not against using swords specifically. Strictly speaking, they
> should not be allowed to use spear-like weapons or pointed missile
> weapons, either, and should probably be stronger than Basic in slings.
> And anyone who has read the Canterbury Tales knows that they should also
> be allowed to ride.
>
>
>>>The usual caveat around two-handed weapons -- the fear of them becoming
>>>cursed -- is somewhat less severe for Priest(ess)es, as "remove curse"
>>>is their special spell.
>>
>>Famous last words: "I think I'll just wield this two-handed weapon so I
>>can cast remove curse on it."
>>
>>If you've been lurking in this newsgroup, you'll remember a certain post
>>a while ago. Someone got their unicorn horn cursed on his ascension run.
>>He wielded it, since the remove curse spell only works on weapons and
>>armor unless it's at Expert. Then he tried casting remove curse.
>
>
> Stupid question, perhaps (and admittely irrelevant to your main point,
> with which I agree at least somewhat), but what was that Priest doing in
> Gehennom _without_ Clerical spell (including RC) at Expert?
>
> Richard

You'll notice that I only said "someone," not neccesarily a Priest. If
his Clerical was either Basic or Unskilled as I remember, he probably
wasn't.

You probably know this, but even if he wasn't a Priest, a Priest getting
a wielded unihorn cursed is going to have the exact same problem.

--
____ (__)
/ \ (oo) -Shadow
|Moo. > \/
\____/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Tue, 17 May 2005 21:23:49 GMT, rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl (Richard Bos)
wrote:

>Shadow <shadow@shadowedlogic.uni.cc> wrote:
>
>> Bobby Schmidt wrote:
>> > Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Bobby Schmidt wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>* One symptom of being non-offensive characters: Priestesses can't
>> >>>advance weapon skill in any bladed weapon, excepting the one-level
>> >>>advancement for weapons granted through offering.
>> >>
>> >>I'd call most polearms "bladed weapons", not that this helps much.
>> >
>> > Hmm, yeah, I guess you are technically right about bladed weapons. I
>> > was thinking of the various sword and mini-sword types, the sorts of
>> > things one usually gets through offering.
>
>Mind you, Priests _should_ be restricted in any bladed weapon, and this
>should include pole-arms. The restriction of legend is against drawing
>blood, not against using swords specifically.

The restriction isn't really valid in all cases. For example, some
religions involve human or blood sacrifice and have no problem with any
drawn blood.

While it can apply to generic priests in a generic D&D/Nethack setting, it
should not be a global restriction. (In fact, one of the Gazetters for D&D
classic lifted the restriction for Nordic priests.) It's best to leave
it as is - Priests get no training for bladed weapons.

>
>>
>> Famous last words: "I think I'll just wield this two-handed weapon so I
>> can cast remove curse on it."
>>
>> If you've been lurking in this newsgroup, you'll remember a certain post
>> a while ago. Someone got their unicorn horn cursed on his ascension run.
>> He wielded it, since the remove curse spell only works on weapons and
>> armor unless it's at Expert. Then he tried casting remove curse.
>
>Stupid question, perhaps (and admittely irrelevant to your main point,
>with which I agree at least somewhat), but what was that Priest doing in
>Gehennom _without_ Clerical spell (including RC) at Expert?

Lack of use.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Benjamin Lewis wrote:

> Bobby Schmidt wrote:
>
> > The usual caveat around two-handed weapons -- the fear of them becoming
> > cursed -- is somewhat less severe for Priest(ess)es, as "remove curse"
> > is their special spell.
>
> Which they can't cast when wielding a cursed unihorn

I was thinking of casting "remove curse" at high enough skill level
that the entire inventory is uncursed. Sorry about not making that
assumption explicit. (I long ago acquired the habit of not wielding
two-handed weapons unless I could safely uncurse them.)

> > The magic marker works for Wizards, who can credibly try writing spells
> > they don't yet know. Priest(ess)es have almost zero chance of
> > successfully doing so.
>
> Right, good point. The chance will actually be significantly better than
> zero if they have maxed luck (approximately 32%), but this is still pretty
> risky.

Huh, somewhere I forgot about the luck factor. The things we
(re)learn...

--
Bobby Schmidt

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Bobby Schmidt wrote:
> Benjamin Lewis wrote:
>> Bobby Schmidt wrote:

>>> The usual caveat around two-handed weapons -- the fear of them
>>> becoming cursed -- is somewhat less severe for Priest(ess)es, as
>>> "remove curse" is their special spell.

>> Which they can't cast when wielding a cursed unihorn

> I was thinking of casting "remove curse" at high enough skill level
> that the entire inventory is uncursed. Sorry about not making that
> assumption explicit.

It makes no difference whatsoever at what level you can cast "remove
curse". That's only the *effect* when you cast it.

What does make a difference is that you won't be able to cast it (or any
other spell) *at all* if you're wielding a cursed twohander, no matter
if you can cast it at expert or not.

To uncurse a wielded twohander, you really need a scroll of remove curse
or some holy water (in your main inventory, since you won't be able to
open a bag either).

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> writes:

> To uncurse a wielded twohander, you really need a scroll of remove curse
> or some holy water (in your main inventory, since you won't be able to
> open a bag either).

Marvin showed us a clever alternate way in the last tournament, IIRC.

Best,
Jakob

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jakob Creutzig wrote:
> "Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> writes:

>> To uncurse a wielded twohander, you really need a scroll of remove
>> curse or some holy water (in your main inventory, since you won't be
>> able to open a bag either).

> Marvin showed us a clever alternate way in the last tournament, IIRC.

*Marvin* got stuck with a cursed twohander?

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:
>Jakob Creutzig wrote:
>> Marvin showed us a clever alternate way in the last tournament, IIRC.
>
>*Marvin* got stuck with a cursed twohander?

Isn't he on record as saying that he thinks that most of his losses in
his 70% success tournament run were due to operator error?
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
bounce. bounce. bounce. bounce bounce bounce bounce.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

The Prophet Richard Bos known to the wise as rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl, opened the Book of Words, and read unto the people:
>Mind you, Priests _should_ be restricted in any bladed weapon, and this
>should include pole-arms. The restriction of legend is against drawing
>blood, not against using swords specifically.

I could be wrong, but I think this "legend" is wholly the invention of TSR or one of their forbears.

It's possible some restriction along the lines exists in _some_
preisthood, somewhere, but in most ancient religions, priests were not
only permitted to wield bladed weapons and draw blood, they were in
fact required to be proficient in doing so. Animal sacrifice (which
was an aspect of a great many religions, somewhere along the line) was
generally a formalized affair with highly ritualized presentations. It
wasn't just a matter of setting a corpse on an altar and setting it on
fire; the organs, bones, and fat were frequently separated (the
detailed Judaic ritual, for instance, is explained at length in
Leviticus 1--4). It required not merely use of, but in fact skill
with, a knife.

The notion that this is an outgrowth of a prohibition on drawing blood
is especially odd, since being bludgeoned to death tends be at
least as messy and brutal as being stabbed.

--
D. Jacob (Jake) Wildstrom, Math monkey and freelance thinker

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
-Alfred Renyi

The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily endorsed by the
University of California or math department thereof.