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Israeli Army: Dungeons and Dragons Players Are Losers

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Anonymous
March 7, 2005 8:50:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
covld a D&D player become a svicide bomber?


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...

Army frowns on Dvngeons and Dragons


IDF says players are detached from reality and avtomatically given a
low secvrity clearance


By Hanan Greenberg

Does the Israel Defense Forces believe incoming recrvits and soldiers
who play Dvngeons and Dragons are vnfit for elite vnits? Ynetnews has
learned that 18-year-olds who tell recrviters they play the popvlar
fantasy game are avtomatically given low secvrity clearance.

"They're detached from reality and svscepitble to inflvence," the army
says.

Fans of the popvlar role-playing game had spoken of rvmors of this
strange policy by the IDF, bvt now the army has confirmed that it has
a negative image of teens who play the game and labels them as
problematic in regard to their draft statvs.

So if yov like fantasy games, go see the military psychologist.

Dvngeons and Dragons (also known as "D and D") has been a popvlar
role-playing game for decades and is based on a fantasy world.

One player assvmes the role of "Dvngeon Master" which entails
directing the game and controlling the labyrinth, while the others
select from a large selection of characters that inclvdes warriors,
magicians, dwarfs and thieves.

The game focvses on the resvlts of decisions made by the players as
determined by the roll of the dice.

In a more "active" version of the game, players leave the table and go
ovt, dressed as the characters they assvme for the game, along with
the reqvisite eqvipment of swords (not real) to play ovtside, vsvally
in the forest or woods.

'Simply detached from reality'

Thovsands of yovth and teens in Israel play "D and D", fighting
dragons and demons vsing their rich imaginations. The game has also
increased in popvlarity dve to the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy.

However the IDF does not approve of this vnvsval hobby and prevents "D
and D" players from being considered for sensitive army positions by
labeling them with low secvrity clearance.

"We have discovered that some of them are simply detached from
reality," a secvrity sovrce told Ynetnews.

Game enthvsiasts are aware of their problematic image in the army and
prefer to maintain their anonymity. Many of them are from the former
Soviet Union where the game is very popvlar.

In Israel there are thovsands of players, between the ages 16 to 35,
and inclvde lawyers, high-tech workers and bvsinessmen. Matan, 22, and
Igor, a 21-year-old IDF soldier, organize activities for grovps of
players. Soon hvndreds of fans are expected to meet in a forest in the
sovthern part of Israel for a two-day game of pvre fantasy.

"It's not a game of winners and losers," Matan says,
"bvt rather entry into another world with stories and plot changes."

He is aware of the game's problematic repvtation, especially in the
IDF. The army is not indifferent to the vniqve hobby and is trying to
locate soldiers who in their free time dress vp as witches and play in
forests.

'The game indicates a weak personality'

A secvrity official tells Ynetnews there are specific criteria for
deciding the level of a soldier's secvrity clearance.

"One of the tests we do, either by asking soldiers directly or throvgh
information provided vs, is to ask whether they take part in the
game," he says. "If a soldier answers in the affirmative, he is sent
to a professional for an evalvation, vsvally a psychologist."

More than half of the soldiers sent for evalvation receive low
secvrity clearances, thvs preventing them from serving in sensitive
IDF positions, he says.

Igor says exposing soldiers who play the game covld resvlt in the
soldiers being sent to a military psychologist or even being kicked
ovt of the army.

"Exposing them covld also harm their chances at being accepted to
other military covrses," he says.

Matan says he has personally met soldiers whose military career was
harmed dve to their connection to the game. Most soldiers who play
Dvngeons and Dragons simply do not admit to it while they are in teh
army, he says.

Why does the IDF believe the game is so dangerovs?

"These people have a tendency to be inflvenced by external factors
which covld clovd their jvdgment, a military official says. "They may
be detached from reality or have a weak personality – elements
which lower a person's secvrity clearance, allowing them to serve in
the army, bvt not in sensitive positions."

Unsvrprisingly, Igor, Matan and thier friends do not approve of this
IDF policy. They say the game is only a colorfvl, non-violent hobby.

"Many people who play served in the most classified vnits," David
says. "They are intelligent and any attempt to label them as 'weird'
is incorrect and vnfair."

Bvt in the strvggle between the Lord of the Rings and the Minister of
Defense, the latter wins, or at least this is the case in the real
world of the IDF.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 8:14:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Zot ! wrote:
> Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
> could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
>
>
> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...
>
> Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
>

Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal d&d,
that the IDF has a problem with.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 10:41:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Michael Grosberg wrote:
> Zot ! wrote:
> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
> >
> >
> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...
> >
> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
> >
>
> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal d&d,
> that the IDF has a problem with.

And what's the diff?
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 10:48:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Michael Grosberg wrote:
> Zot ! wrote:
> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
> >
> >
> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...
> >
> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
> >
>
> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal d&d,
> that the IDF has a problem with.

RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?

bd4u
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 11:16:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Lorenz Lang wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
>
> >
> > Michael Grosberg wrote:
> >> Zot ! wrote:
> >> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side
-
> >> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...
> >> >
> >> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
> >> >
> >>
> >> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal
d&d,
> >> that the IDF has a problem with.
> >
> > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
> >
> > bd4u
>
> They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
roleplaying games
> like, say, monopoly).

I don't like the way people become obsessed with the game.
As if life doesn't matter to them, just the game.
I used to play the game, and then I grew up. IDF
rightfully lowers their security clasification
IMHO in order to match their level of maturity.
That of a 10 year old..

bd4u
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 12:57:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

<gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1110298599.069991.95360@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> I don't like the way people become obsessed with the game.

I don't like the way people get obsessed with sports. Or partying. Or
getting laid.

> As if life doesn't matter to them, just the game.

Some people have that problem, no matter what their obsession is. For
example, look at drug addicts who become "clean & sober" religious fanatics.

> I used to play the game, and then I grew up.

Same here. Of course, I still play.

> IDF rightfully lowers their security clasification

That may or may not be true.

> IMHO in order to match their level of maturity.
> That of a 10 year old..

Let me guess: no one wants to play with you.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 1:19:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Clangador wrote:
> Michael Grosberg wrote:
> > Zot ! wrote:
> > > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side
-
> > > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...
> > >
> > > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
> > >
> >
> > Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal
d&d,
> > that the IDF has a problem with.
>
> And what's the diff?

Rd&d is the version where you play outside, in costume, using foam
covered weapons.
So these are people who are into strategy and decision making, like to
spend time outside, and enjoy physical efort that includes running
around in rugged terrain while lugging weapons.

Why on earth would the IDF want such people? They are clearly unfit for
the military lifestyle.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 2:00:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Zot ! wrote:
> In a more "active" version of the game, players leave the table and
go
> out, dressed as the characters they assume for the game, along with
> the requisite equipment of swords (not real) to play outside, usually
> in the forest or woods.
>

What the hell this has to do with D&D I don't know. Sounds more like a
sport *spit*.

- Justisaur.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 6:23:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Hehh, I figured I would incur the wrath of a bunch of
mental midgets, who play Roleplaying games.

Listen to them jabber and talk. It sounds
like a Star Trek convention all the sudden.

Oh well..
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 6:51:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

R?ain - øéòéï wrote:
> You are forgetting that we are talking about 18-year-olds right out
of
> high school, who face the high probability of being killed before
they
> turn 21.

Precisely the point of arguement with the IDF. I got nothing
against D&D, it can be alot of fun escaping reality. That's
what daydreams are made of. But unfortunately bullets and
warfare are for *real*, and I wouldn't want a *kid* handling
classified information. I don't think the IDF does either.

>
> And most D&D players I know are 18 or older.
>

Yeah i know, some are even 40 and over. Most are single,
and many more have NO serious obligations.

>
>
>
> <gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:1110298599.069991.95360@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> :
> : Lorenz Lang wrote:
> : > On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
> : >
> : > >
> : > > Michael Grosberg wrote:
> : > >> Zot ! wrote:
> : > >> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others
> side
> : -
> : > >> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
> : > >> >
> : > >> >
> : > >> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...
> : > >> >
> : > >> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
> : > >> >
> : > >>
> : > >> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not
normal
> : d&d,
> : > >> that the IDF has a problem with.
> : > >
> : > > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
> : > >
> : > > bd4u
> : >
> : > They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not
normal
> : roleplaying games
> : > like, say, monopoly).
> :
> : I don't like the way people become obsessed with the game.
> : As if life doesn't matter to them, just the game.
> : I used to play the game, and then I grew up. IDF
> : rightfully lowers their security clasification
> : IMHO in order to match their level of maturity.
> : That of a 10 year old..
> :
> : bd4u
> :
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 6:57:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Lorenz Lang wrote:
> >>
> >> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal
d&d,
> >> that the IDF has a problem with.
> >
> > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
> >
> > bd4u
>
> They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
roleplaying games
> like, say, monopoly).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Gerald Katz
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 7:00:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Eudaemonic Plague wrote:
> "Lorenz Lang" <lang@netlife.invalid> wrote in message
> news:p an.2005.03.08.15.58.57.824119@netlife.invalid...
> : On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
> [snip]
> : > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
> : >
> : > bd4u
> :
> : They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
> roleplaying games
> : like, say, monopoly).
>
> Lorenz, you really need help...did you realize that "role-playing"
and
> "roll-playing" are not equivilent? Monopoly is a _boardgame_, not a
> role-playing game.

You missed the joke.

Gerald Katz
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 7:45:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

"Zot !" <zottiezot23@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5e3c8206.0503071750.5ad6fba7@posting.google.com...
> Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
> could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
>
>
> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...
>
> Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
>
>
> IDF says players are detached from reality and automatically given a
> low security clearance
>
snip

I think that the IDF's policy tells us more about the IDF than it does about
D&D players.

One of the strengths of D&D is that it teaches players to look at a wide
range of options when solving the problems that arise in the game. That
particularly applies when running a character of any complexity.

I guess that would teach people to think for themselves, and not blindly
accept whatever their superiors tell them.

That could be what the IDF is really concerned about.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 7:45:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In news:422d816f$1@clear.net.nz,
Rivercat <uce@ftc.com> typed:
> And finally, on the limits of how much regular soldiers 'should'
> think for themselves - I would point out that soldiers are most
> dangerous when they stop thinking for themselves - obeying orders is
> not a defence for war crimes. The last bunch to try that defence
> wound up being tried at Nuremburg.

You're talking about what the soldiers should do since they're human beings.
The others are talking about what an army wants its soldiers to do and (not)
think...

--
T. Koivula
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 7:58:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:

>
> Michael Grosberg wrote:
>> Zot ! wrote:
>> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
>> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
>> >
>> >
>> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...
>> >
>> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
>> >
>>
>> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal d&d,
>> that the IDF has a problem with.
>
> RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
>
> bd4u

They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal roleplaying games
like, say, monopoly).
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 7:59:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

"Lorenz Lang" <lang@netlife.invalid> wrote in message
news:p an.2005.03.08.15.58.57.824119@netlife.invalid...
: On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
[snip]
: > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
: >
: > bd4u
:
: They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
roleplaying games
: like, say, monopoly).

Lorenz, you really need help...did you realize that "role-playing" and
"roll-playing" are not equivilent? Monopoly is a _boardgame_, not a
role-playing game.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 8:39:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:16:39 -0800, gigo44 wrote:

>
> Lorenz Lang wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Michael Grosberg wrote:
>> >> Zot ! wrote:
>> >> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side
> -
>> >> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...
>> >> >
>> >> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal
> d&d,
>> >> that the IDF has a problem with.
>> >
>> > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
>> >
>> > bd4u
>>
>> They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
> roleplaying games
>> like, say, monopoly).
>
> I don't like the way people become obsessed with the game.
> As if life doesn't matter to them, just the game.

Life, what's that?
My wizard enspelled this post with Explosive Runes.
*Now*, you're blasted.

> I used to play the game, and then I grew up. IDF
> rightfully lowers their security clasification
> IMHO in order to match their level of maturity.

Yes, it's their club, they can put the bar as high as they want.

> That of a 10 year old..

Must go back to my homework, mommy's calling.

LL
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 10:41:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
> gigo448@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > R?ain - øéòéï wrote:
> >
> >>You are forgetting that we are talking about 18-year-olds right out
> >
> > of
> >
> >>high school, who face the high probability of being killed before
> >
> > they
> >
> >>turn 21.
> >
> >
> > Precisely the point of arguement with the IDF. I got nothing
> > against D&D, it can be alot of fun escaping reality. That's
> > what daydreams are made of. But unfortunately bullets and
> > warfare are for *real*, and I wouldn't want a *kid* handling
> > classified information. I don't think the IDF does either.
>
> So... Anyone interested in anything involving a temporary escape
from
> reality should be restricted from handling classified information?
You
> mean people who read narrative fiction, and people who dress up for
> Halloween, and people who go to the theatre? That's an...
interesting
> viewpoint.

You are stretching the point and proping up strawmen. Nothing
new really for somebody with a wild imagination.

>
> I'm not at all surprised by any of this, really -- most militaries
are
> very much SJ organizations, and as such have little ability or desire
to
> incorporate more flexible and intuitive types. Nothing new there.

They can't afford to, live at at risk believe it or not.


>
> Anyway, the US basically owns Israel, and when we tell them to jump
> they'd damn well better ask "how high?". If we felt like changing
their
> internal policies all we'd have to do is make the demand. Personally
I
> don't really care. let them forbid Palestinian-blooded folks from
> entering their military too, or whatever it is they do in that
backward,
> desert, camel-kissing region of the world. Give it a few more
decades
> and the oil will run out and then they can all blow each other to
> Kingdom Come for all the US is going to care -- we'll cluck our
tongues
> "tsk tsk tsk" and shake our heads like we do every time some ignorant

> dirt-eating African tribe butchers some other ignorant dirt-eating
> African tribe, and then go back to watching the Superbowl. Way it
is.
>
> - Ron ^*^

More strawmen. In the meantime I wouldn't want any "dope puffing
socialist" determining who is gonna live or die in the end, any
more than I would want a D&D player thinking he was King Arthur
commanding the troops in Battle, on Bunker Hill no less.

Leave the toys at home.. ..you want R&R, have a beer, and hit
the showers. Read a book or somethin.. ..they might call it
"wargames", but war ain't no game.

bd4u
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 11:03:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Okay. Good to know. I know and have played D&D, but had no idea what
RD&D was.
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 11:28:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

"Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1110326404.116418.267260@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > : They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
> > roleplaying games
> > : like, say, monopoly).
> >
> > Lorenz, you really need help...did you realize that "role-playing"
> and
> > "roll-playing" are not equivilent? Monopoly is a _boardgame_, not a
> > role-playing game.
>
> You missed the joke.

Yeah, that's kind of a rgfd insider thing. Being the cause of it, I
appreciated the joke! ;) 

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 11:40:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
>
>
>
> <SNIP>
>
> Anyway, the US basically owns Israel, and when we tell them to jump
> they'd damn well better ask "how high?". If we felt like changing
their
> internal policies all we'd have to do is make the demand. Personally
I
> don't really care. let them forbid Palestinian-blooded folks from
> entering their military too, or whatever it is they do in that
backward,
> desert, camel-kissing region of the world. Give it a few more
decades
> and the oil will run out and then they can all blow each other to
> Kingdom Come for all the US is going to care -- we'll cluck our
tongues
> "tsk tsk tsk" and shake our heads like we do every time some ignorant

> dirt-eating African tribe butchers some other ignorant dirt-eating
> African tribe, and then go back to watching the Superbowl. Way it
is.
>
> - Ron ^*^



LOL -- I agree...except that that's precisely GWB's attitude at first,
and now look where we are....

Hate to say it, but all these cavemen make themselves our problem....

And I don't think America owns Israel so much as Israel owns the US.
Didn't Sharon himself boast so of AIPAC?
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 12:03:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

In article <d0kt8n$ai$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu>,
Eudaemonic Plague <ghod@ameritech.net> wrote:
>"Lorenz Lang" <lang@netlife.invalid> wrote in message
>news:p an.2005.03.08.15.58.57.824119@netlife.invalid...
>: On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
>[snip]
>: > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
>: >
>: > bd4u
>:
>: They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
>roleplaying games
>: like, say, monopoly).
>
>Lorenz, you really need help...did you realize that "role-playing" and
>"roll-playing" are not equivilent? Monopoly is a _boardgame_, not a
>role-playing game.

Lorenz knows all that. rec.games.frp.dnd had a recent flamewar about "real
roleplaying" to which he is alluding.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 12:31:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

You are forgetting that we are talking about 18-year-olds right out of
high school, who face the high probability of being killed before they
turn 21.

And most D&D players I know are 18 or older.




<gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1110298599.069991.95360@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
:
: Lorenz Lang wrote:
: > On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
: >
: > >
: > > Michael Grosberg wrote:
: > >> Zot ! wrote:
: > >> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others
side
: -
: > >> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
: > >> >
: > >> >
: > >> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...
: > >> >
: > >> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
: > >> >
: > >>
: > >> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal
: d&d,
: > >> that the IDF has a problem with.
: > >
: > > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
: > >
: > > bd4u
: >
: > They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
: roleplaying games
: > like, say, monopoly).
:
: I don't like the way people become obsessed with the game.
: As if life doesn't matter to them, just the game.
: I used to play the game, and then I grew up. IDF
: rightfully lowers their security clasification
: IMHO in order to match their level of maturity.
: That of a 10 year old..
:
: bd4u
:
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 1:08:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

gigo448@netscape.net wrote:
> Hehh, I figured I would incur the wrath of a bunch of
> mental midgets, who play Roleplaying games.

Oh, but that's where you're wrong! Why, Michael Scott Brown alone knows
more about anything than just about anyone! Just ask him!


> Listen to them jabber and talk. It sounds
> like a Star Trek convention all the sudden.

"Listen to them jabber and talk"?

I think the "and talk" there is a bit superfluous, at best. At worst it
overshadows the derogatory thrust of your missive.


> Oh well..

And what, precisely, is your great contribution to society, Mr. Dicky Bird?

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 1:18:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Susan Cohen wrote:
> <gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:1110339679.885412.154140@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I wouldn't want any "dope puffing
> socialist" determining who is gonna live or die in the end, any
> more than I would want a D&D player thinking he was King Arthur
> commanding the troops in Battle, on Bunker Hill no less.
>
> None of us gamers is like that, thank you.
>
> Susan

Are you saying you play *roleplaying* games, like
Dungeons and Dragons? I'm inclined to ask how old
you are, and whether or not -you- have Children.
Where do -you- find the time for it, and why
would -you-?

bd4u



>
> Leave the toys at home.. ..you want R&R, have a beer, and hit
> the showers. Read a book or somethin.. ..they might call it
> "wargames", but war ain't no game.
>
> bd4u
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 1:20:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

gigo448@netscape.net wrote:

> R?ain - øéòéï wrote:
>
>>You are forgetting that we are talking about 18-year-olds right out
>
> of
>
>>high school, who face the high probability of being killed before
>
> they
>
>>turn 21.
>
>
> Precisely the point of arguement with the IDF. I got nothing
> against D&D, it can be alot of fun escaping reality. That's
> what daydreams are made of. But unfortunately bullets and
> warfare are for *real*, and I wouldn't want a *kid* handling
> classified information. I don't think the IDF does either.

So... Anyone interested in anything involving a temporary escape from
reality should be restricted from handling classified information? You
mean people who read narrative fiction, and people who dress up for
Halloween, and people who go to the theatre? That's an... interesting
viewpoint.

I'm not at all surprised by any of this, really -- most militaries are
very much SJ organizations, and as such have little ability or desire to
incorporate more flexible and intuitive types. Nothing new there.

Anyway, the US basically owns Israel, and when we tell them to jump
they'd damn well better ask "how high?". If we felt like changing their
internal policies all we'd have to do is make the demand. Personally I
don't really care. let them forbid Palestinian-blooded folks from
entering their military too, or whatever it is they do in that backward,
desert, camel-kissing region of the world. Give it a few more decades
and the oil will run out and then they can all blow each other to
Kingdom Come for all the US is going to care -- we'll cluck our tongues
"tsk tsk tsk" and shake our heads like we do every time some ignorant
dirt-eating African tribe butchers some other ignorant dirt-eating
African tribe, and then go back to watching the Superbowl. Way it is.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 1:34:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

R?ain - øéòéï wrote:
> You are forgetting that we are talking about 18-year-olds right out of
> high school, who face the high probability of being killed before they
> turn 21.
>
> And most D&D players I know are 18 or older.

Then I assume most _people_ you know are 18 or older.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 1:39:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

gigo448@netscape.net wrote:
>
> Precisely the point of arguement with the IDF. I got nothing
> against D&D, it can be alot of fun escaping reality. That's
> what daydreams are made of. But unfortunately bullets and
> warfare are for *real*, and I wouldn't want a *kid* handling
> classified information. I don't think the IDF does either.

Then raise the recruitment age to 25.
Anything below that IS a kid to us over 30.
(Yeah, I know I felt otherwise when I was under 30...)

>>And most D&D players I know are 18 or older.
>
> Yeah i know, some are even 40 and over.

Gasp!

> Most are single,

Most _people_ are single these days.

> and many more have NO serious obligations.

And many do.
That's a wash.

But watch this:

"... most golfers I know are 18 or older."
"Yeah i know, some are even 40 and over.
Most are single,
and many more have NO serious obligations."
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 1:43:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Eudaemonic Plague wrote:

> "Lorenz Lang" <lang@netlife.invalid> wrote in message
> news:p an.2005.03.08.15.58.57.824119@netlife.invalid...
> : On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
> [snip]
> : > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
> : >
> : > bd4u
> :
> : They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
> roleplaying games
> : like, say, monopoly).
>
> Lorenz, you really need help...did you realize that "role-playing" and
> "roll-playing" are not equivilent? Monopoly is a _boardgame_, not a
> role-playing game.

Lorenz just got all the help he needed!

Lorenz IS Ron!
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 1:45:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Yeah, I remember my days in SCA, and the
Renesaince fairs and all. I also remember
my days in the Military, and those that
had the most difficulty getting with the program.

It was all a *game* to them.

bd4u
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 3:22:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"T. Koivula" <plistat@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:D 0k1b0$lss$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> In news:422d816f$1@clear.net.nz,
> Rivercat <uce@ftc.com> typed:
>> And finally, on the limits of how much regular soldiers 'should'
>> think for themselves - I would point out that soldiers are most
>> dangerous when they stop thinking for themselves - obeying orders is
>> not a defence for war crimes. The last bunch to try that defence
>> wound up being tried at Nuremburg.
>
> You're talking about what the soldiers should do since they're human
> beings.
> The others are talking about what an army wants its soldiers to do and
> (not)
> think...
>
> --
> T. Koivula
>

Yes, that's right.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 3:25:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

<gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1110324233.080805.47500@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hehh, I figured I would incur the wrath of a bunch of
> mental midgets,

Wrath?!? Bitch, you almost made me laugh.

> who play Roleplaying games.

Ooooh. Scary.

> Listen to them jabber and talk.

Take your meds, mate.

> It sounds like a Star Trek convention all the sudden.

I have met some of the folks from Warp 11. Kiki Stockhammer is pretty hot
in real life too.

> Oh well..

Are you going to cry now?

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 3:44:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

John Phillips wrote:
> <gigo448 wrote
> > Yeah, I remember my days in SCA, and the
> > Renesaince fairs and all. I also remember
> > my days in the Military, and those that
> > had the most difficulty getting with the program.
> >
> > It was all a *game* to them.
>
> Ren faires and the SCA?
> Ok, that explains a lot then..

Only in relationship to the other poster.
Otherwise it means little in the discussion
of RD&D. *roleplaying*, is fantasy, and fantasy
I'm afraid just ain't *reality*, and anybody who
thinks otherwise, aughta jump into a *live*
firefight some time.

>
>
> John


End of discussion..
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 3:46:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

<gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1110349095.838768.259730@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> Are you saying you play *roleplaying* games, like
> Dungeons and Dragons? I'm inclined to ask how old
> you are, and whether or not -you- have Children.

Tons of gamers have children, dumbass.

> Where do -you- find the time for it,

I find time for it because I barely work. I make enough money not to have
to as often as most folks. The majority of the free time goes to the kids,
of course, but D&D, Esperanto, piano, the occasional computer game, and
other pursuits have their time.

> and why would -you-?

Interactive entertainment, simpleton.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 3:48:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

<gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1110350746.012520.131470@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Yeah, I remember my days in SCA, and the
> Renesaince fairs and all.

So, you are a bitter ex-geek. That explains a few things.

> I also remember
> my days in the Military, and those that
> had the most difficulty getting with the program.
>
> It was all a *game* to them.

Some people can get the job done, others cannot hack it. Their choice of
hobby is no clear indicator.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 4:00:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> <gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:1110350746.012520.131470@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > Yeah, I remember my days in SCA, and the
> > Renesaince fairs and all.
>
> So, you are a bitter ex-geek. That explains a few things.

Hehh, me Bitter? You just see my web side sarcasm.
You don't even know me. An from your previous statement
it looks like *you* are the one that NEVER got through Puberty.

>
> > I also remember
> > my days in the Military, and those that
> > had the most difficulty getting with the program.
> >
> > It was all a *game* to them.
>
> Some people can get the job done, others cannot hack it. Their
choice of
> hobby is no clear indicator.

While others live in a fantasy land, and can't seem to
connect with reality. Obviously NOT everybody that plays D&D
are *lifers* at it. Some people got better things to do with
their time, when it boils down to it.

>
> --
> ^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^
>
> It matters not how strait the gate,
> How charged with punishment the scroll,
> I am the Master of my fate:
> I am the Captain of my soul.
>
> from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 6:36:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:

>
>
>gigo448@netscape.net wrote:
>
>> R?ain - øéòéï wrote:
>>
>>>You are forgetting that we are talking about 18-year-olds right out
>>
>> of
>>
>>>high school, who face the high probability of being killed before
>>
>> they
>>
>>>turn 21.
>>
>>
>> Precisely the point of arguement with the IDF. I got nothing
>> against D&D, it can be alot of fun escaping reality. That's
>> what daydreams are made of. But unfortunately bullets and
>> warfare are for *real*, and I wouldn't want a *kid* handling
>> classified information. I don't think the IDF does either.
>
>So... Anyone interested in anything involving a temporary escape from
>reality should be restricted from handling classified information? You
>mean people who read narrative fiction, and people who dress up for
>Halloween, and people who go to the theatre? That's an... interesting
>viewpoint.
>
>I'm not at all surprised by any of this, really -- most militaries are
>very much SJ organizations, and as such have little ability or desire to
>incorporate more flexible and intuitive types. Nothing new there.
>
>Anyway, the US basically owns Israel, and when we tell them to jump
>they'd damn well better ask "how high?". If we felt like changing their
>internal policies all we'd have to do is make the demand. Personally I
>don't really care. let them forbid Palestinian-blooded folks from
>entering their military too, or whatever it is they do in that backward,
>desert, camel-kissing region of the world.
Eh, WHAT?
my city:
http://www.haifa.muni.il
and some photos from its tourist board:
http://www.tour-haifa.co.il/heb/gallery/index.phtml

desert? camels? where?

I guess everything else you KNOW is just as accurate.


> Give it a few more decades
>and the oil will run out and then they can all blow each other to
>Kingdom Come for all the US is going to care -- we'll cluck our tongues
>"tsk tsk tsk" and shake our heads like we do every time some ignorant
>dirt-eating African tribe butchers some other ignorant dirt-eating
>African tribe, and then go back to watching the Superbowl. Way it is.
>
> - Ron ^*^
>
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 6:40:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Zot! wrote:

> Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
> could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?

Islam at least frowns on D&D, at least for practicing muslims. I
would say no, offhand.

> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...
>
> Israeli Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
>
> IDF says players are detached from reality and automatically given a
> low security clearance
>
> By Hanan Greenberg...
>
> Does the Israel Defense Forces believe incoming recruits and soldiers
> who play Dungeons and Dragons are unfit for elite units? Ynetnews has
> learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular
> fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.
>
> "They're detached from reality and susceptible to influence," the army
> says.

Most D&D players are highly resistant to common brainwashing
techniques, and other obsolete peer pressure techniques [insert
your favorite political organization, or religious fanatical
organization, cult, or agenda here] in favor of objectively
examining all the facets of any given dispute or simulation to
better understand (...and therefore master..) the dispute or
simulation.

The Israeli army simply doesn't like D&D players becuase they are
too independent and unpredictable to suit the all too often
morally questionable or highly demanding mission requirements of
the IDF, that's all.

You can also check out an old movie about an Israeli soldier. It's
called "The Sword of Gideon.", and will bring to light a family
(and soldier) that is not detached from the reality of what life
is like and the requirements for those folks in the minority that
live in the middle east.

As for D&D players being detached from reality, witch hunts like
these are what keeps the tards in the IDF, you know, the stupid
folk that insist on committing atrocities under Miers old
"Eye-for-an-eye" policy, A policy that keeps fanning the flames of
hatred against Israel. Fortunately, there are more moderate folks
also in charge there, to balance things a bit, unfortunately, it
seems not to be the case for the IDF.

The following quote is from "Monty Python & The Holy Grail" and is
applicable...

CROWD: A witch! A witch! A witch! We've got a witch! A witch!
VILLAGER #1: We have found a witch, might we burn her?
CROWD: Burn her! Burn!
BEDEVERE: How do you know she is a witch?
VILLAGER #2: She looks like one.
BEDEVERE: Bring her forward.
WITCH: I'm not a witch. I'm not a witch.
BEDEVERE: But you are dressed as one.
WITCH: They dressed me up like this.
CROWD: No, we didn't -- no.
WITCH: And this isn't my nose, it's a false one.
BEDEVERE: Well?
VILLAGER #1: Well, we did do the nose.
BEDEVERE: The nose?
VILLAGER #1: And the hat -- but she is a witch!
CROWD: Burn her! Witch! Witch! Burn her!
BEDEVERE: Did you dress her up like this?
CROWD: No, no... no ... yes. Yes, yes, a bit, a bit.
VILLAGER #1: She has got a wart.
BEDEVERE: What makes you think she is a witch?
VILLAGER #3: Well, she turned me into a newt.
BEDEVERE: A newt?
VILLAGER #3: I got better.
VILLAGER #2: Burn her anyway!
CROWD: Burn! Burn her!
BEDEVERE: Quiet, quiet. Quiet! There are ways of telling whether
she is a witch.
CROWD: Are there? What are they?
BEDEVERE: Tell me, what do you do with witches?
VILLAGER #2: Burn!
CROWD: Burn, burn them up!
BEDEVERE: And what do you burn apart from witches?
VILLAGER #1: More witches!
VILLAGER #2: Wood!
BEDEVERE: So, why do witches burn?
[pause]
VILLAGER #3: B--... 'cause they're made of wood...?
BEDEVERE: Good!
CROWD: Oh yeah, yeah...
BEDEVERE: So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood?
VILLAGER #1: Build a bridge out of her.
BEDEVERE: Aah, but can you not also build bridges out of stone?
VILLAGER #2: Oh, yeah.
BEDEVERE: Does wood sink in water?
VILLAGER #1: No, no.
VILLAGER #2: It floats! It floats!
VILLAGER #1: Throw her into the pond!
CROWD: The pond!
BEDEVERE: What also floats in water?
VILLAGER #1: Bread!
VILLAGER #2: Apples!
VILLAGER #3: Very small rocks!
VILLAGER #1: Cider!
VILLAGER #2: Great gravy!
VILLAGER #1: Cherries!
VILLAGER #2: Mud!
VILLAGER #3: Churches -- churches!
VILLAGER #2: Lead -- lead!
ARTHUR: A duck.
CROWD: Oooh.
BEDEVERE: Exactly! So, logically...,
VILLAGER #1: If... she.. weighs the same as a duck, she's made of
wood.
BEDEVERE: And therefore--?
VILLAGER #1: A witch!
CROWD: A witch!
BEDEVERE: We shall use my largest scales!
[yelling]
BEDEVERE: Right, remove the supports!
[whop]
[creak]
CROWD: A witch! A witch!
WITCH: It's a fair cop.
CROWD: Burn her! Burn!
[yelling]
BEDEVERE: Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?
ARTHUR: I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
BEDEVERE: My liege!
ARTHUR: Good Sir knight, will you come with me to Camelot,
and join us at the Round Table?
BEDEVERE: My liege! I would be honored.
ARTHUR: What is your name?
BEDEVERE: Bedevere, my leige.
ARTHUR: Then I dub you Sir Bedevere, Knight of the Round Table.
[Narrative Interlude]
NARRATOR: The wise Sir Bedevere was the first to join King
Arthur's knights, but other illustrious names were soon to follow:
Sir Launcelot the Brave; Sir Galahad the Pure; and Sir Robin the
Not-quite-so-brave-as-Sir-Launcelot who had nearly fought the
Dragon of Agnor, who had nearly stood up to the vicious Chicken of
Bristol and who had personally wet himself at the Battle of Badon
Hill; and the aptly named Sir Not-appearing-in-this-film. Together
they formed a band whose names and deeds were to be retold
throughout the centuries, the Knights of the Round Table.

Re,
Dirk
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 6:42:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rivercat wrote:

> "Zot !" <zottiezot23@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5e3c8206.0503071750.5ad6fba7@posting.google.com...
>
>>Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
>>could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
>>
>>
>>http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...
>>
>>Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
>>
>>
>>IDF says players are detached from reality and automatically given a
>>low security clearance
>>
>
> snip
>
> I think that the IDF's policy tells us more about the IDF than it does about
> D&D players.
>
> One of the strengths of D&D is that it teaches players to look at a wide
> range of options when solving the problems that arise in the game. That
> particularly applies when running a character of any complexity.
>
> I guess that would teach people to think for themselves, and not blindly
> accept whatever their superiors tell them.
>
> That could be what the IDF is really concerned about.

Agreed.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 7:08:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Clangador wrote:

> Michael Grosberg wrote:
>
>>Zot ! wrote:
>>
>>>Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
>>>could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.ht...
>>>
>>>Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
>>>
>>
>>Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal d&d,
>>that the IDF has a problem with.
>
>
> And what's the diff?

I hope you have enjoyed crossposting to a good chunk of the
Internet, for the conclusion of this thread, I have omitted the
other newsgroups this troll message was intended for.

RD&D is where the folks dress up in costume and go out on Mt.
Sinai and roleplay in person. We here in the U.S. have the SCA and
LARPS for that. In the middle east, they take their religion
seriously, and find such activities slightly profane.

Re,
Dirk
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 7:11:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

justisaur@gmail.com wrote:

> Zot ! wrote:
>
>>In a more "active" version of the game, players leave the table and
>
> go
>
>>out, dressed as the characters they assume for the game, along with
>>the requisite equipment of swords (not real) to play outside, usually
>>in the forest or woods.
>>
>
>
> What the hell this has to do with D&D I don't know. Sounds more like a
> sport *spit*.

It is, it's called Trolling. Got a rise out of a few
troll-o-meters this did...
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 7:27:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

R?ain - øéòéï wrote:
> Is that what they told you, when they rejected you?
>
Alas, they insisted on me serving a full term (with a high security
clearance) and ocasionally call on me for reserve duty.
I have never played d&d in my life, due to the fact that I didn't find
it particularly interesting.

Oh, and one more thing...


Troll O Meter

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
___________________________________________________
| | | | | | | | | | |
---------------------------------------------------
^
|

Don't quit your dayjob.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 7:34:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Werebat wrote:
> gigo448@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > Werebat wrote:
> >
> >>gigo448@netscape.net wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>R?ain - øéòéï wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>You are forgetting that we are talking about 18-year-olds right
out
> >>>
> >>>of
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>high school, who face the high probability of being killed before
> >>>
> >>>they
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>turn 21.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Precisely the point of arguement with the IDF. I got nothing
> >>>against D&D, it can be alot of fun escaping reality. That's
> >>>what daydreams are made of. But unfortunately bullets and
> >>>warfare are for *real*, and I wouldn't want a *kid* handling
> >>>classified information. I don't think the IDF does either.
> >>
> >>So... Anyone interested in anything involving a temporary escape
> >
> > from
> >
> >>reality should be restricted from handling classified information?
> >
> > You
> >
> >>mean people who read narrative fiction, and people who dress up for
> >>Halloween, and people who go to the theatre? That's an...
> >
> > interesting
> >
> >>viewpoint.
> >
> >
> > You are stretching the point and proping up strawmen. Nothing
> > new really for somebody with a wild imagination.
>
> I'm not really "proping" up strawmen or anything else. I'm just
> following your argument to its logical conclusion.
>
> If you don't like where it goes, you tell me -- where is the line
where
> you think recreational escape from reality is "OK"? Why?

LOL, man if -you- can't figure it out. Do you think I could tell you?!?

>
> If you can't answer these questions, I'm afraid my statements are
going
> to have to stand.
>

They can stand all -you- want, on solid ground that is.

>
> >>I'm not at all surprised by any of this, really -- most militaries
> >
> > are
> >
> >>very much SJ organizations, and as such have little ability or
desire
> >
> > to
> >
> >>incorporate more flexible and intuitive types. Nothing new there.
> >
> >
> > They can't afford to, live at at risk believe it or not.
>
> <Shrug> SJs (do you know what I am talking about?) are the most
> organization-minded of people, but organizations comprised solely of
SJs
> have some rather gaping flaws that expose them to many threats. Not
the
> least of which is that the SJs typically can't see those flaws until
> they have been exploited.
>

Any good chess player can play chess.

>
> >>Anyway, the US basically owns Israel, and when we tell them to jump
> >>they'd damn well better ask "how high?". If we felt like changing
> >
> > their
> >
> >>internal policies all we'd have to do is make the demand.
Personally
> >
> > I
> >
> >>don't really care. let them forbid Palestinian-blooded folks from
> >>entering their military too, or whatever it is they do in that
> >
> > backward,
> >
> >>desert, camel-kissing region of the world. Give it a few more
> >
> > decades
> >
> >>and the oil will run out and then they can all blow each other to
> >>Kingdom Come for all the US is going to care -- we'll cluck our
> >
> > tongues
> >
> >>"tsk tsk tsk" and shake our heads like we do every time some
ignorant
> >
> >
> >>dirt-eating African tribe butchers some other ignorant dirt-eating
> >>African tribe, and then go back to watching the Superbowl. Way it
> >
> > is.
> >
> >> - Ron ^*^
> >
> >
> > More strawmen.
>
> How was anything I said an argument I "set up" so I could "knock it
> down"? I don't think you know what a strawman IS.
>
>
> > In the meantime I wouldn't want any "dope puffing
> > socialist" determining who is gonna live or die in the end, any
> > more than I would want a D&D player thinking he was King Arthur
> > commanding the troops in Battle, on Bunker Hill no less.
>
> You know, I was about to point out that you have a very warped view
of
> D&D players in general, but I just realized that you live in Isreal.
It
> might be that your average Isreali really *IS* the kind of mentally
> deranged sot that shouldn't be let near the game. After all, some of

> you people still think you're something other than a tool of the USA,
a
> tool that will be discarded as it loses its utility. Heh. Imagine
that.
>
>
> > Leave the toys at home.. ..you want R&R, have a beer, and hit
> > the showers. Read a book or somethin.. ..they might call it
> > "wargames", but war ain't no game.
>
> Neither is blowing up Palestinian kids, you sadistic Nazi bastard.
>
> I have a 40th level Warlock who will summon a Pit Fiend on your ass.
>
> - Ron ^*^
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 8:18:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish (More info?)

Hong Ooi wrote:
> On 9 Mar 2005 04:54:25 -0800, gigo448@netscape.net wrote:
>
> >
> >Werebat wrote:
> >> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >>
> >> > "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:1110343207.837453.323490@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>LOL -- I agree...except that that's precisely GWB's attitude at
> >first,
> >> >>and now look where we are....
> >> >>
> >> >>Hate to say it, but all these cavemen make themselves our
> >problem....
> >> >>
> >> >>And I don't think America owns Israel so much as Israel owns the
> >US.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Oh, good grief - one is even more ignorant than the other.
> >>
> >> I agree that both Israel and the USA are ignorant.
> >>
> >> However, Israel is the tool of the US, and not the other way
'round.
> >
> >Israel ain't ANYbodies fool. It's an Independant State.
> >An has been since i believe 1948.
>
> Sorry, you're out by one year. It was in 1949 that the Communists
marched
> into Tel Aviv, proclaiming the modern-day People's Republic of
Israel, NOT
> 1948. In the same year the Palestinians fled to Taiwan, and Palestine
and
> Israel have both claimed sovereignty over the other since.
>
> >It ain't anybodies mouthpiece
> >however it does co-operate with the other Nations, it's NOT
> >out to "get anybody" if that's what -you- are meaning.
>
> Explain Taiwan, then.
>
>
> --
> Hong Ooi | "COUNTERSRTIKE IS AN
REAL-TIME
> hong@zipworld.com.au | STRATEGY GAME!!!"
> http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | -- RR
> Sydney, Australia |


Don't know, never played it. Are -you- basing reality on
some computer game? Well it looks like -you- came to the *right*
place!

bd4u
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 8:47:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Susan Cohen wrote:
> <gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:1110365058.867181.224580@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >I used to do Civil War re-enactments at one time
> > as well. Nothing quite like having a REAL Navy Colt
> > in your hands. I'll tell ya one thing, it ain't NO *toy*.
>
> I had to give it up because most of the people doing it back then
were pigs.
> And yes, I had an1851 Sheriff's Colt (repro).

Cool..

Was that a .44 or a .45, the Navy is a .44 colt. An -you- could often
tell
which side the fella was on because of it.

> I suppose I should get rid of my clothes from then, because after 25
years,
> they no longer fit.
>

It's an expensive hobby to get into to begin with. I couldn't
afford the pieces that I had *borrowed*. I was too busy seeing
the world.


> Susan
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 9:04:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

"Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in message
news:bYtXd.56194$7z6.24149@lakeread04...
>
> Anyway, the US basically owns Israel, and when we tell them to jump they'd
> damn well better ask "how high?".

Oh, please.

If we felt like changing their
> internal policies all we'd have to do is make the demand.

You really need to get some facts, here.
We give a whopping 2% to their national budget.
If we "cut off aid" to Israel, we'd lose valuable clients for our military
wares (yes, most of the "aid" we give them is in the form of "vouchers" for
American goods), to say nothing of invaluable intelligence - even if we
disregard it.

Susan
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 9:05:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

<gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1110339679.885412.154140@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> I wouldn't want any "dope puffing
socialist" determining who is gonna live or die in the end, any
more than I would want a D&D player thinking he was King Arthur
commanding the troops in Battle, on Bunker Hill no less.

None of us gamers is like that, thank you.

Susan

Leave the toys at home.. ..you want R&R, have a beer, and hit
the showers. Read a book or somethin.. ..they might call it
"wargames", but war ain't no game.

bd4u
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 9:06:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish (More info?)

"NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110343207.837453.323490@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> LOL -- I agree...except that that's precisely GWB's attitude at first,
> and now look where we are....
>
> Hate to say it, but all these cavemen make themselves our problem....
>
> And I don't think America owns Israel so much as Israel owns the US.

Oh, good grief - one is even more ignorant than the other.

> Didn't Sharon himself boast so of AIPAC?

Stop reading PLO propaganda.

Susan
>
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 10:14:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

Uri Bruck wrote:
> Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>gigo448@netscape.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>>R?ain - øéòéï wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>You are forgetting that we are talking about 18-year-olds right out
>>>
>>>of
>>>
>>>
>>>>high school, who face the high probability of being killed before
>>>
>>>they
>>>
>>>
>>>>turn 21.
>>>
>>>
>>>Precisely the point of arguement with the IDF. I got nothing
>>>against D&D, it can be alot of fun escaping reality. That's
>>>what daydreams are made of. But unfortunately bullets and
>>>warfare are for *real*, and I wouldn't want a *kid* handling
>>>classified information. I don't think the IDF does either.
>>
>>So... Anyone interested in anything involving a temporary escape from
>>reality should be restricted from handling classified information? You
>>mean people who read narrative fiction, and people who dress up for
>>Halloween, and people who go to the theatre? That's an... interesting
>>viewpoint.
>>
>>I'm not at all surprised by any of this, really -- most militaries are
>>very much SJ organizations, and as such have little ability or desire to
>>incorporate more flexible and intuitive types. Nothing new there.
>>
>>Anyway, the US basically owns Israel, and when we tell them to jump
>>they'd damn well better ask "how high?". If we felt like changing their
>>internal policies all we'd have to do is make the demand. Personally I
>>don't really care. let them forbid Palestinian-blooded folks from
>>entering their military too, or whatever it is they do in that backward,
>>desert, camel-kissing region of the world.
>
> Eh, WHAT?
> my city:
> http://www.haifa.muni.il
> and some photos from its tourist board:
> http://www.tour-haifa.co.il/heb/gallery/index.phtml
>
> desert? camels? where?
>
> I guess everything else you KNOW is just as accurate.

You forgot to say, "Thank you, American Citizen -- Thank you, a thousand
times thank you!

I pay taxes so you get to live, ingrate.

- Ron ^*^
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 10:26:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.fan.noam-chomsky,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.arts.sf.written,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.russian (More info?)

gigo448@netscape.net wrote:

> Werebat wrote:
>
>>gigo448@netscape.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>>R?ain - øéòéï wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>You are forgetting that we are talking about 18-year-olds right out
>>>
>>>of
>>>
>>>
>>>>high school, who face the high probability of being killed before
>>>
>>>they
>>>
>>>
>>>>turn 21.
>>>
>>>
>>>Precisely the point of arguement with the IDF. I got nothing
>>>against D&D, it can be alot of fun escaping reality. That's
>>>what daydreams are made of. But unfortunately bullets and
>>>warfare are for *real*, and I wouldn't want a *kid* handling
>>>classified information. I don't think the IDF does either.
>>
>>So... Anyone interested in anything involving a temporary escape
>
> from
>
>>reality should be restricted from handling classified information?
>
> You
>
>>mean people who read narrative fiction, and people who dress up for
>>Halloween, and people who go to the theatre? That's an...
>
> interesting
>
>>viewpoint.
>
>
> You are stretching the point and proping up strawmen. Nothing
> new really for somebody with a wild imagination.

I'm not really "proping" up strawmen or anything else. I'm just
following your argument to its logical conclusion.

If you don't like where it goes, you tell me -- where is the line where
you think recreational escape from reality is "OK"? Why?

If you can't answer these questions, I'm afraid my statements are going
to have to stand.


>>I'm not at all surprised by any of this, really -- most militaries
>
> are
>
>>very much SJ organizations, and as such have little ability or desire
>
> to
>
>>incorporate more flexible and intuitive types. Nothing new there.
>
>
> They can't afford to, live at at risk believe it or not.

<Shrug> SJs (do you know what I am talking about?) are the most
organization-minded of people, but organizations comprised solely of SJs
have some rather gaping flaws that expose them to many threats. Not the
least of which is that the SJs typically can't see those flaws until
they have been exploited.


>>Anyway, the US basically owns Israel, and when we tell them to jump
>>they'd damn well better ask "how high?". If we felt like changing
>
> their
>
>>internal policies all we'd have to do is make the demand. Personally
>
> I
>
>>don't really care. let them forbid Palestinian-blooded folks from
>>entering their military too, or whatever it is they do in that
>
> backward,
>
>>desert, camel-kissing region of the world. Give it a few more
>
> decades
>
>>and the oil will run out and then they can all blow each other to
>>Kingdom Come for all the US is going to care -- we'll cluck our
>
> tongues
>
>>"tsk tsk tsk" and shake our heads like we do every time some ignorant
>
>
>>dirt-eating African tribe butchers some other ignorant dirt-eating
>>African tribe, and then go back to watching the Superbowl. Way it
>
> is.
>
>> - Ron ^*^
>
>
> More strawmen.

How was anything I said an argument I "set up" so I could "knock it
down"? I don't think you know what a strawman IS.


> In the meantime I wouldn't want any "dope puffing
> socialist" determining who is gonna live or die in the end, any
> more than I would want a D&D player thinking he was King Arthur
> commanding the troops in Battle, on Bunker Hill no less.

You know, I was about to point out that you have a very warped view of
D&D players in general, but I just realized that you live in Isreal. It
might be that your average Isreali really *IS* the kind of mentally
deranged sot that shouldn't be let near the game. After all, some of
you people still think you're something other than a tool of the USA, a
tool that will be discarded as it loses its utility. Heh. Imagine that.


> Leave the toys at home.. ..you want R&R, have a beer, and hit
> the showers. Read a book or somethin.. ..they might call it
> "wargames", but war ain't no game.

Neither is blowing up Palestinian kids, you sadistic Nazi bastard.

I have a 40th level Warlock who will summon a Pit Fiend on your ass.

- Ron ^*^
!