Israeli Army: Dungeons and Dragons Players Are Losers

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Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
covld a D&D player become a svicide bomber?


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html

Army frowns on Dvngeons and Dragons


IDF says players are detached from reality and avtomatically given a
low secvrity clearance


By Hanan Greenberg

Does the Israel Defense Forces believe incoming recrvits and soldiers
who play Dvngeons and Dragons are vnfit for elite vnits? Ynetnews has
learned that 18-year-olds who tell recrviters they play the popvlar
fantasy game are avtomatically given low secvrity clearance.

"They're detached from reality and svscepitble to inflvence," the army
says.

Fans of the popvlar role-playing game had spoken of rvmors of this
strange policy by the IDF, bvt now the army has confirmed that it has
a negative image of teens who play the game and labels them as
problematic in regard to their draft statvs.

So if yov like fantasy games, go see the military psychologist.

Dvngeons and Dragons (also known as "D and D") has been a popvlar
role-playing game for decades and is based on a fantasy world.

One player assvmes the role of "Dvngeon Master" which entails
directing the game and controlling the labyrinth, while the others
select from a large selection of characters that inclvdes warriors,
magicians, dwarfs and thieves.

The game focvses on the resvlts of decisions made by the players as
determined by the roll of the dice.

In a more "active" version of the game, players leave the table and go
ovt, dressed as the characters they assvme for the game, along with
the reqvisite eqvipment of swords (not real) to play ovtside, vsvally
in the forest or woods.

'Simply detached from reality'

Thovsands of yovth and teens in Israel play "D and D", fighting
dragons and demons vsing their rich imaginations. The game has also
increased in popvlarity dve to the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy.

However the IDF does not approve of this vnvsval hobby and prevents "D
and D" players from being considered for sensitive army positions by
labeling them with low secvrity clearance.

"We have discovered that some of them are simply detached from
reality," a secvrity sovrce told Ynetnews.

Game enthvsiasts are aware of their problematic image in the army and
prefer to maintain their anonymity. Many of them are from the former
Soviet Union where the game is very popvlar.

In Israel there are thovsands of players, between the ages 16 to 35,
and inclvde lawyers, high-tech workers and bvsinessmen. Matan, 22, and
Igor, a 21-year-old IDF soldier, organize activities for grovps of
players. Soon hvndreds of fans are expected to meet in a forest in the
sovthern part of Israel for a two-day game of pvre fantasy.

"It's not a game of winners and losers," Matan says,
"bvt rather entry into another world with stories and plot changes."

He is aware of the game's problematic repvtation, especially in the
IDF. The army is not indifferent to the vniqve hobby and is trying to
locate soldiers who in their free time dress vp as witches and play in
forests.

'The game indicates a weak personality'

A secvrity official tells Ynetnews there are specific criteria for
deciding the level of a soldier's secvrity clearance.

"One of the tests we do, either by asking soldiers directly or throvgh
information provided vs, is to ask whether they take part in the
game," he says. "If a soldier answers in the affirmative, he is sent
to a professional for an evalvation, vsvally a psychologist."

More than half of the soldiers sent for evalvation receive low
secvrity clearances, thvs preventing them from serving in sensitive
IDF positions, he says.

Igor says exposing soldiers who play the game covld resvlt in the
soldiers being sent to a military psychologist or even being kicked
ovt of the army.

"Exposing them covld also harm their chances at being accepted to
other military covrses," he says.

Matan says he has personally met soldiers whose military career was
harmed dve to their connection to the game. Most soldiers who play
Dvngeons and Dragons simply do not admit to it while they are in teh
army, he says.

Why does the IDF believe the game is so dangerovs?

"These people have a tendency to be inflvenced by external factors
which covld clovd their jvdgment, a military official says. "They may
be detached from reality or have a weak personality – elements
which lower a person's secvrity clearance, allowing them to serve in
the army, bvt not in sensitive positions."

Unsvrprisingly, Igor, Matan and thier friends do not approve of this
IDF policy. They say the game is only a colorfvl, non-violent hobby.

"Many people who play served in the most classified vnits," David
says. "They are intelligent and any attempt to label them as 'weird'
is incorrect and vnfair."

Bvt in the strvggle between the Lord of the Rings and the Minister of
Defense, the latter wins, or at least this is the case in the real
world of the IDF.
 
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Zot ! wrote:
> Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
> could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
>
>
> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html
>
> Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
>

Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal d&d,
that the IDF has a problem with.
 
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Michael Grosberg wrote:
> Zot ! wrote:
> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
> >
> >
> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html
> >
> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
> >
>
> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal d&d,
> that the IDF has a problem with.

And what's the diff?
 
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Michael Grosberg wrote:
> Zot ! wrote:
> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
> >
> >
> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html
> >
> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
> >
>
> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal d&d,
> that the IDF has a problem with.

RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?

bd4u
 
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Lorenz Lang wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
>
> >
> > Michael Grosberg wrote:
> >> Zot ! wrote:
> >> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side
-
> >> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html
> >> >
> >> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
> >> >
> >>
> >> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal
d&d,
> >> that the IDF has a problem with.
> >
> > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
> >
> > bd4u
>
> They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
roleplaying games
> like, say, monopoly).

I don't like the way people become obsessed with the game.
As if life doesn't matter to them, just the game.
I used to play the game, and then I grew up. IDF
rightfully lowers their security clasification
IMHO in order to match their level of maturity.
That of a 10 year old..

bd4u
 
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<gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1110298599.069991.95360@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> I don't like the way people become obsessed with the game.

I don't like the way people get obsessed with sports. Or partying. Or
getting laid.

> As if life doesn't matter to them, just the game.

Some people have that problem, no matter what their obsession is. For
example, look at drug addicts who become "clean & sober" religious fanatics.

> I used to play the game, and then I grew up.

Same here. Of course, I still play.

> IDF rightfully lowers their security clasification

That may or may not be true.

> IMHO in order to match their level of maturity.
> That of a 10 year old..

Let me guess: no one wants to play with you.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
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Clangador wrote:
> Michael Grosberg wrote:
> > Zot ! wrote:
> > > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side
-
> > > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html
> > >
> > > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
> > >
> >
> > Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal
d&d,
> > that the IDF has a problem with.
>
> And what's the diff?

Rd&d is the version where you play outside, in costume, using foam
covered weapons.
So these are people who are into strategy and decision making, like to
spend time outside, and enjoy physical efort that includes running
around in rugged terrain while lugging weapons.

Why on earth would the IDF want such people? They are clearly unfit for
the military lifestyle.
 
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Zot ! wrote:
> In a more "active" version of the game, players leave the table and
go
> out, dressed as the characters they assume for the game, along with
> the requisite equipment of swords (not real) to play outside, usually
> in the forest or woods.
>

What the hell this has to do with D&D I don't know. Sounds more like a
sport *spit*.

- Justisaur.
 
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Hehh, I figured I would incur the wrath of a bunch of
mental midgets, who play Roleplaying games.

Listen to them jabber and talk. It sounds
like a Star Trek convention all the sudden.

Oh well..
 
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R?ain - øéòéï wrote:
> You are forgetting that we are talking about 18-year-olds right out
of
> high school, who face the high probability of being killed before
they
> turn 21.

Precisely the point of arguement with the IDF. I got nothing
against D&D, it can be alot of fun escaping reality. That's
what daydreams are made of. But unfortunately bullets and
warfare are for *real*, and I wouldn't want a *kid* handling
classified information. I don't think the IDF does either.

>
> And most D&D players I know are 18 or older.
>

Yeah i know, some are even 40 and over. Most are single,
and many more have NO serious obligations.

>
>
>
> <gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:1110298599.069991.95360@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> :
> : Lorenz Lang wrote:
> : > On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
> : >
> : > >
> : > > Michael Grosberg wrote:
> : > >> Zot ! wrote:
> : > >> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others
> side
> : -
> : > >> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
> : > >> >
> : > >> >
> : > >> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html
> : > >> >
> : > >> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
> : > >> >
> : > >>
> : > >> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not
normal
> : d&d,
> : > >> that the IDF has a problem with.
> : > >
> : > > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
> : > >
> : > > bd4u
> : >
> : > They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not
normal
> : roleplaying games
> : > like, say, monopoly).
> :
> : I don't like the way people become obsessed with the game.
> : As if life doesn't matter to them, just the game.
> : I used to play the game, and then I grew up. IDF
> : rightfully lowers their security clasification
> : IMHO in order to match their level of maturity.
> : That of a 10 year old..
> :
> : bd4u
> :
 
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Lorenz Lang wrote:
> >>
> >> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal
d&d,
> >> that the IDF has a problem with.
> >
> > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
> >
> > bd4u
>
> They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
roleplaying games
> like, say, monopoly).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Gerald Katz
 
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Eudaemonic Plague wrote:
> "Lorenz Lang" <lang@netlife.invalid> wrote in message
> news:pan.2005.03.08.15.58.57.824119@netlife.invalid...
> : On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
> [snip]
> : > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
> : >
> : > bd4u
> :
> : They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
> roleplaying games
> : like, say, monopoly).
>
> Lorenz, you really need help...did you realize that "role-playing"
and
> "roll-playing" are not equivilent? Monopoly is a _boardgame_, not a
> role-playing game.

You missed the joke.

Gerald Katz
 
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"Zot !" <zottiezot23@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5e3c8206.0503071750.5ad6fba7@posting.google.com...
> Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
> could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
>
>
> http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html
>
> Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
>
>
> IDF says players are detached from reality and automatically given a
> low security clearance
>
snip

I think that the IDF's policy tells us more about the IDF than it does about
D&D players.

One of the strengths of D&D is that it teaches players to look at a wide
range of options when solving the problems that arise in the game. That
particularly applies when running a character of any complexity.

I guess that would teach people to think for themselves, and not blindly
accept whatever their superiors tell them.

That could be what the IDF is really concerned about.
 
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In news:422d816f$1@clear.net.nz,
Rivercat <uce@ftc.com> typed:
> And finally, on the limits of how much regular soldiers 'should'
> think for themselves - I would point out that soldiers are most
> dangerous when they stop thinking for themselves - obeying orders is
> not a defence for war crimes. The last bunch to try that defence
> wound up being tried at Nuremburg.

You're talking about what the soldiers should do since they're human beings.
The others are talking about what an army wants its soldiers to do and (not)
think...

--
T. Koivula
 
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On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:

>
> Michael Grosberg wrote:
>> Zot ! wrote:
>> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side -
>> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
>> >
>> >
>> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html
>> >
>> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
>> >
>>
>> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal d&d,
>> that the IDF has a problem with.
>
> RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
>
> bd4u

They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal roleplaying games
like, say, monopoly).
 
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"Lorenz Lang" <lang@netlife.invalid> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.03.08.15.58.57.824119@netlife.invalid...
: On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
[snip]
: > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
: >
: > bd4u
:
: They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
roleplaying games
: like, say, monopoly).

Lorenz, you really need help...did you realize that "role-playing" and
"roll-playing" are not equivilent? Monopoly is a _boardgame_, not a
role-playing game.
 
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On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:16:39 -0800, gigo44 wrote:

>
> Lorenz Lang wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Michael Grosberg wrote:
>> >> Zot ! wrote:
>> >> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others side
> -
>> >> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html
>> >> >
>> >> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal
> d&d,
>> >> that the IDF has a problem with.
>> >
>> > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
>> >
>> > bd4u
>>
>> They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
> roleplaying games
>> like, say, monopoly).
>
> I don't like the way people become obsessed with the game.
> As if life doesn't matter to them, just the game.

Life, what's that?
My wizard enspelled this post with Explosive Runes.
*Now*, you're blasted.

> I used to play the game, and then I grew up. IDF
> rightfully lowers their security clasification
> IMHO in order to match their level of maturity.

Yes, it's their club, they can put the bar as high as they want.

> That of a 10 year old..

Must go back to my homework, mommy's calling.

LL
 
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Werebat wrote:
> gigo448@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > R?ain - øéòéï wrote:
> >
> >>You are forgetting that we are talking about 18-year-olds right out
> >
> > of
> >
> >>high school, who face the high probability of being killed before
> >
> > they
> >
> >>turn 21.
> >
> >
> > Precisely the point of arguement with the IDF. I got nothing
> > against D&D, it can be alot of fun escaping reality. That's
> > what daydreams are made of. But unfortunately bullets and
> > warfare are for *real*, and I wouldn't want a *kid* handling
> > classified information. I don't think the IDF does either.
>
> So... Anyone interested in anything involving a temporary escape
from
> reality should be restricted from handling classified information?
You
> mean people who read narrative fiction, and people who dress up for
> Halloween, and people who go to the theatre? That's an...
interesting
> viewpoint.

You are stretching the point and proping up strawmen. Nothing
new really for somebody with a wild imagination.

>
> I'm not at all surprised by any of this, really -- most militaries
are
> very much SJ organizations, and as such have little ability or desire
to
> incorporate more flexible and intuitive types. Nothing new there.

They can't afford to, live at at risk believe it or not.


>
> Anyway, the US basically owns Israel, and when we tell them to jump
> they'd damn well better ask "how high?". If we felt like changing
their
> internal policies all we'd have to do is make the demand. Personally
I
> don't really care. let them forbid Palestinian-blooded folks from
> entering their military too, or whatever it is they do in that
backward,
> desert, camel-kissing region of the world. Give it a few more
decades
> and the oil will run out and then they can all blow each other to
> Kingdom Come for all the US is going to care -- we'll cluck our
tongues
> "tsk tsk tsk" and shake our heads like we do every time some ignorant

> dirt-eating African tribe butchers some other ignorant dirt-eating
> African tribe, and then go back to watching the Superbowl. Way it
is.
>
> - Ron ^*^

More strawmen. In the meantime I wouldn't want any "dope puffing
socialist" determining who is gonna live or die in the end, any
more than I would want a D&D player thinking he was King Arthur
commanding the troops in Battle, on Bunker Hill no less.

Leave the toys at home.. ..you want R&R, have a beer, and hit
the showers. Read a book or somethin.. ..they might call it
"wargames", but war ain't no game.

bd4u
 
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Okay. Good to know. I know and have played D&D, but had no idea what
RD&D was.
 
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"Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1110326404.116418.267260@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > : They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
> > roleplaying games
> > : like, say, monopoly).
> >
> > Lorenz, you really need help...did you realize that "role-playing"
> and
> > "roll-playing" are not equivilent? Monopoly is a _boardgame_, not a
> > role-playing game.
>
> You missed the joke.

Yeah, that's kind of a rgfd insider thing. Being the cause of it, I
appreciated the joke! ;)

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
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Werebat wrote:
>
>
>
> <SNIP>
>
> Anyway, the US basically owns Israel, and when we tell them to jump
> they'd damn well better ask "how high?". If we felt like changing
their
> internal policies all we'd have to do is make the demand. Personally
I
> don't really care. let them forbid Palestinian-blooded folks from
> entering their military too, or whatever it is they do in that
backward,
> desert, camel-kissing region of the world. Give it a few more
decades
> and the oil will run out and then they can all blow each other to
> Kingdom Come for all the US is going to care -- we'll cluck our
tongues
> "tsk tsk tsk" and shake our heads like we do every time some ignorant

> dirt-eating African tribe butchers some other ignorant dirt-eating
> African tribe, and then go back to watching the Superbowl. Way it
is.
>
> - Ron ^*^



LOL -- I agree...except that that's precisely GWB's attitude at first,
and now look where we are....

Hate to say it, but all these cavemen make themselves our problem....

And I don't think America owns Israel so much as Israel owns the US.
Didn't Sharon himself boast so of AIPAC?
 
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In article <d0kt8n$ai$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu>,
Eudaemonic Plague <ghod@ameritech.net> wrote:
>"Lorenz Lang" <lang@netlife.invalid> wrote in message
>news:pan.2005.03.08.15.58.57.824119@netlife.invalid...
>: On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
>[snip]
>: > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
>: >
>: > bd4u
>:
>: They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
>roleplaying games
>: like, say, monopoly).
>
>Lorenz, you really need help...did you realize that "role-playing" and
>"roll-playing" are not equivilent? Monopoly is a _boardgame_, not a
>role-playing game.

Lorenz knows all that. rec.games.frp.dnd had a recent flamewar about "real
roleplaying" to which he is alluding.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
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You are forgetting that we are talking about 18-year-olds right out of
high school, who face the high probability of being killed before they
turn 21.

And most D&D players I know are 18 or older.




<gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1110298599.069991.95360@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
:
: Lorenz Lang wrote:
: > On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 07:48:50 -0800, gigo44 wrote:
: >
: > >
: > > Michael Grosberg wrote:
: > >> Zot ! wrote:
: > >> > Interesting. Does anyone knows what is policy of the others
side
: -
: > >> > could a D&D player become a suicide bomber?
: > >> >
: > >> >
: > >> > http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html
: > >> >
: > >> > Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
: > >> >
: > >>
: > >> Actually, the article is a bit misleading. It's Rd&d, not normal
: d&d,
: > >> that the IDF has a problem with.
: > >
: > > RD&D, AD&D, D&D which one do -you- consider "normal"?
: > >
: > > bd4u
: >
: > They are all pretty unnormal, absurd roll-playing games (not normal
: roleplaying games
: > like, say, monopoly).
:
: I don't like the way people become obsessed with the game.
: As if life doesn't matter to them, just the game.
: I used to play the game, and then I grew up. IDF
: rightfully lowers their security clasification
: IMHO in order to match their level of maturity.
: That of a 10 year old..
:
: bd4u
:
 
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gigo448@netscape.net wrote:
> Hehh, I figured I would incur the wrath of a bunch of
> mental midgets, who play Roleplaying games.

Oh, but that's where you're wrong! Why, Michael Scott Brown alone knows
more about anything than just about anyone! Just ask him!


> Listen to them jabber and talk. It sounds
> like a Star Trek convention all the sudden.

"Listen to them jabber and talk"?

I think the "and talk" there is a bit superfluous, at best. At worst it
overshadows the derogatory thrust of your missive.


> Oh well..

And what, precisely, is your great contribution to society, Mr. Dicky Bird?

- Ron ^*^
 
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Susan Cohen wrote:
> <gigo448@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:1110339679.885412.154140@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I wouldn't want any "dope puffing
> socialist" determining who is gonna live or die in the end, any
> more than I would want a D&D player thinking he was King Arthur
> commanding the troops in Battle, on Bunker Hill no less.
>
> None of us gamers is like that, thank you.
>
> Susan

Are you saying you play *roleplaying* games, like
Dungeons and Dragons? I'm inclined to ask how old
you are, and whether or not -you- have Children.
Where do -you- find the time for it, and why
would -you-?

bd4u



>
> Leave the toys at home.. ..you want R&R, have a beer, and hit
> the showers. Read a book or somethin.. ..they might call it
> "wargames", but war ain't no game.
>
> bd4u