Getting back to NetHack and Caveman question

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Hi all,

After a long pause, I'm becoming a NetHack addict again. Some of
the old timers might remember I used to post here, from 2001 to 2003 or
so Google says. So remember, there is no such thing as an ex-NH player!

The RNG obviously sensed that I'd need a bit of incouragement to get
back to the game. So the very first character I started, a Caveman,
somehow survived the early game, cleared the Castle @ lvl 13 and is now
trying to level up for the quest. This without any remarkable luck early
on, such as wishes from lamps, or loot from bonefiles, or whatever. He
just survived the journey to the Castle, found a grey dragon, made a
GDSM from scales and wished the essential pieces of equipment with the
castle wand. This game is so simple, isn't it? I just can't bear to
think what incredible YASD awaits me...

The level with the Quest portal had an altar and a throne room. I dug up
the whole level with a wand of digging, so that I could easily lure
monsters from the throne room to the altar. So i sacrificed almost every
single monster from that room, plus some more. This way I got: Werebane,
Ogresmasher, Dragonslayer (The Cleaver I already had). Duh. The Castle
however, randomly generated Mjollnir somewhere among the soldiers.
Double duh.

Now, what's the best weapon to use from the Quest on - Mjollnir or the
Sceptre of Might? Provided I fully enchant and get to maximum skill
possible, of course. This should be a simple question, but the YAAP
posts don't seem to agree on a single best weapon for a Caveman. I've
never ascended a Caveman, but I remember I had a couple of really
promising ones.

--
Kamen K.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kamen wrote:

> Now, what's the best weapon to use from the Quest on - Mjollnir or the
> Sceptre of Might? Provided I fully enchant and get to maximum skill
> possible, of course. This should be a simple question, but the YAAP
> posts don't seem to agree on a single best weapon for a Caveman. I've
> never ascended a Caveman, but I remember I had a couple of really
> promising ones.

I'd probably wield Mjollnir most of the time, but carry the
Sceptre as alternate weapon, and switch to it when the situation seemed
to call for it (against shock resistant but not co-aligned critters, for
example, or against critters carrying wands or rings that I wanted to
plunder). Average damage against vulnerable critters is close enough
between the two to make no difference, but more critters are vulnerable
to Mjollnir than to the Sceptre... shock resistance is fairly rare,
while roughly a third of all critters will be co-aligned (of course,
some of those will be peaceful anyway...). The Sceptre provides magic
resistance and conflict, but doesn't need to actually be wielded for
either of those effects. Also, Rodney might steal the Sceptre... it's
nice if you've still got a weapon when that happens (and it's not a good
idea to use it as your sole source of magic resistance, for the same
reason).

My caveman ascended wielding Excalibur, but he was lawful and
illiterate, so the situation was somewhat different.

--
John Campbell
jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kamen wrote:
> The table in the artifact spoiler lists damage assuming +7 enchantment
> and Expert skill. I can get to Expert with the Sceptre, but only to
> Skilled with Mojo. So I guess damage against chaotic and neutral
> monsters will be slightly better witht the Scepter. But for now, I'll
> have to kill the Chromatic Dragon with the +0 Mjollnir.

Not a good idea. The Chromatic Dragon's shock-resistant. You'll only be
doing the regular damage of a hammer, which is d4 (plus bonuses).

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kamen <kirilov@abv.bg> writes:

> After a long pause, I'm becoming a NetHack addict again. Some of
> the old timers might remember I used to post here, from 2001 to 2003 or

Yeah, I remember you. Welcome back.
I, on the other hand, have recently become less active than I used to be..
because of some RL changes (pleasant ones) I just don't spend as much of
my free time with the computer as before, so that means less writing to
the newsgroups.

And now I have a valkyrie going on that I started on the last day of
January. I have done the Quest and finished all DoD, Mines and Gehennom
levels down to the vibrating square. On my way down, Orcus summoned
Demogorgon and Yeenoghu, so after killing the big D I don't feel like
having much left to be afraid of. It'll be either YAA or YA(very)SD.

> so Google says. So remember, there is no such thing as an ex-NH player!

Right. There are some who have been taking a pause in playing, and some
who play less than before..

--
Jukka Lahtinen

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kamen wrote:
> But then I am neutral, and most of the Gehennom inhabitants are chaotic
> IIRC, and the end game enemies such as angels are lawful.

Gehennom's skewed towards chaotic, but there are still plenty of
lawful and neutral critters there. Tough neutral nasties that show up in
Gehennom include minotaurs, jabberwocks, purple worms, umber hulks,
xorns, elementals, golems, and most "natural" critters, including some
fairly tough ones like mastodons and titanotheres. On the other hand,
arch-liches, blue dragons, storm giants, and iron golems are basically
the only shock resistant critters worth worrying about (the big As are,
too, but don't spawn in Gehennom).

Using the Sceptre on the Astral is probably a good idea...
angels are shock resistant. Unfortunately, most of the inhabitants of
the Elemental Planes are neutral, including those frickin' air
elementals. And the Riders are both neutral *and* shock resistant, so
you're kinda screwed either way against them.

Of course, given an AC in excess of -40, you'd probably do just
fine against anything short of the Riders with nothing but a thoroughly
burnt -3 toothpick.

> The table in the artifact spoiler lists damage assuming +7 enchantment
> and Expert skill. I can get to Expert with the Sceptre, but only to
> Skilled with Mojo. So I guess damage against chaotic and neutral
> monsters will be slightly better witht the Scepter.

Chaotic and lawful, you mean. But, yeah, a couple points. But
there are more neutrals than there are shock resistant critters.

> But for now, I'll
> have to kill the Chromatic Dragon with the +0 Mjollnir.

Unfortunately, she's one of the shock resistant ones.

--
John Campbell
jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kamen wrote:

> David Corbett <dcorbett42@yahoo.co.nz> wrote:
>> Not a good idea. The Chromatic Dragon's shock-resistant. You'll only
>> be doing the regular damage of a hammer, which is d4 (plus bonuses).
>
> Ah, should have remembered that. Then the +5 Cleaver will have to do,
> but my AC will go from -42 to -36 when I take off the shield of
> reflection.

Sounds to me like you're way overprepared for the quest. An AC of -36
should be more than enough; I'm usually closer to -10 when I do the quest,
whereas -36 is adequate for ascension.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kamen <kirilov@abv.bg> wrote:

>After a long pause, I'm becoming a NetHack addict again. Some of
>the old timers might remember I used to post here, from 2001 to 2003 or
>so Google says.

Of course. Welcome back!

--
Philipp Lucas
phlucas@online-club.de

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jukka Lahtinen <jukkal@despammed.com> wrote in
news:yrju0l5aieo.fsf@despammed.com:

> Kamen <kirilov@abv.bg> writes:
>> Jukka Lahtinen <jukkal@despammed.com> wrote in
>
[snip]
>
> Hmm.. I said I feel like there's not MUCH left. I just have a feeling
> that I have probably forgot something.
> So far I have not genocided anything, and the wand from the Castle is
> still unused. My wishless conduct, however, is no longer intact
> because I have got two wishes from thrones (used them for gray dragon
> scale mail and speed boots). Polyselfless conduct was blown in a trap
> before I got the GDSM and polyobjectless was blown when identifying a
> potion.. I *could* try an extinctionist, but I want to finish this
> game before the next version gets released, and it has already been
> going on for three and a half months..
>

Another way is to use as many wishes as possible, equip the character
with the best equipment and to hell with conducts. Or save all the wishes
for the Astral plane, then wish for fun things like cockatrice corpses,
Archon figurines, blessed scrolls of taming, etc.

--
Kamen K.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"JC" <no@spam.please> wrote:

> "Benjamin Lewis" <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote in message
> news:yy7oll6hfuuv.fsf@css.css.sfu.ca...
>
> > > Ah, should have remembered that. Then the +5 Cleaver will have to do,
> > > but my AC will go from -42 to -36 when I take off the shield of
> > > reflection.
> >
> > Sounds to me like you're way overprepared for the quest. An AC of -36
> > should be more than enough; I'm usually closer to -10 when I do the quest
>
> While -10 is fine for some quests, I would not go anywhere near the
> Chromatic Dragon with anything less than -20. She's one of the few quest
> nemeses that has taken my character out.

Odd. I've recently got my first Caveman to the quest, and IME she was a
pushover. It may have helped that I already had a good weapon
(Grayswandir, IIRC) and decent armour, but not -20; -15, probably. I
stepped from the stairs, zapped Tiamat with something, stepped back, and
started whacking her. She didn't last long, and never got me in trouble.
Of course, with a monster with that many breath attacks, reflection is
your friend.

Richard

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kamen <kirilov.ihatespam@removethis.abv.bg> writes:

> The table in the artifact spoiler lists damage assuming +7 enchantment
> and Expert skill. I can get to Expert with the Sceptre, but only to
> Skilled with Mojo. So I guess damage against chaotic and neutral
> monsters will be slightly better witht the Scepter. But for now, I'll
> have to kill the Chromatic Dragon with the +0 Mjollnir.

The table lists damage assuming maximum skill for your class, not
necessarily expert; that is why the best weapon varies by class.

--
David Grabiner, grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu, http://remarque.org/~grabiner
Baseball labor negotiations FAQ: http://remarque.org/~grabiner/laborfaq.html
Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
Klein Glassworks, Torus Coffee and Donuts, Projective Airlines, etc.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kamen <kirilov@abv.bg> writes:

> grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu (David J. Grabiner) wrote in
> news:u4qd1qpsz.fsf@alumni.princeton.edu:
>
> > Kamen <kirilov.ihatespam@removethis.abv.bg> writes:
> >
> >> The table in the artifact spoiler lists damage assuming +7
> >> enchantment and Expert skill. I can get to Expert with the Sceptre,
> >> but only to Skilled with Mojo. So I guess damage against chaotic and
> >> neutral monsters will be slightly better witht the Scepter. But for
> >> now, I'll have to kill the Chromatic Dragon with the +0 Mjollnir.
> >
> > The table lists damage assuming maximum skill for your class, not
> > necessarily expert; that is why the best weapon varies by class.
> >
>
> Quote from http://www.steelypips.org/nethack/341/art2-341.html
>
> "The table also indicates the damage range of each artifact against
> typical SMALL creatures, LARGE creatures, and major DEMONs. The damage
> calculations assume that the artifact is enchanted as shown, you have
> expert skill, and that the artifact's special attacks apply to the
> monster;..."
>
> I understand this means exactly expert skill.

That quote is correct, and if you use the table to estimate damage, you
need to adjust for skill.

The following table lists the best weapon by class, adjusting for the
skill levels. The Sceptre of Might is missing from that table; it's a
bit better than Mjollnir when both bonuses apply.

--
David Grabiner, grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu, http://remarque.org/~grabiner
Baseball labor negotiations FAQ: http://remarque.org/~grabiner/laborfaq.html
Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
Klein Glassworks, Torus Coffee and Donuts, Projective Airlines, etc.