subtle questions

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OK. two not so related questions - although the effects I'm asking about in both
are/would be subtle. Both of these came to mind from some of the recent posts.

1. If a HOA allows you to ascend at different altars, fool your god, pickup
unaligned, intelligent, artifacts, etc., does it cause all/any of the other
effects of being the 'new' alignment. For example, could a lawful wearing a HOA
(so they 'look' chaotic) kill fleeing monsters without penalty? Can a chaotic
w/ HOA dip for Excalibur?

2. If you dip a unihorn or amethyst (or HW, too, I guess) into an unpurchased
potion in a shop and it changes to a potion with a different value, does your
credit status with the shopkeeper change accordingly? Will you owe money or
gain credit (if that is possible)?

If I'm just being (extra) lazy because this is all covered somewhere else, I
apologize in advance.

S-
 
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schmultzburger <schmultzSPAMburger@yahoo.com> writes:

> OK. two not so related questions - although the effects I'm asking
> about in both are/would be subtle. Both of these came to mind from
> some of the recent posts.
>
> 1. If a HOA allows you to ascend at different altars, fool your god,
> pickup unaligned, intelligent, artifacts, etc., does it cause all/any
> of the other effects of being the 'new' alignment. For example, could
> a lawful wearing a HOA (so they 'look' chaotic) kill fleeing monsters
> without penalty? Can a chaotic w/ HOA dip for Excalibur?

IIRC, your alignment is really the new one -- with one exception:
The Quest leader will not accept your alignment, if its 'correctness'
is due to the HoOA (i.e., if you converted, then put on the helm for
'being lawful again'). But CMIIW.

> 2. If you dip a unihorn or amethyst (or HW, too, I guess) into an
> unpurchased potion in a shop and it changes to a potion with a
> different value, does your credit status with the shopkeeper change
> accordingly?

IIRC, you're charged for having used up the potion while the new
potion is your own. But it's better to wiz-test my memory.

Best,
Jakob
 
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Jakob Creutzig wrote:
> schmultzburger <schmultzSPAMburger@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
>>OK. two not so related questions - although the effects I'm asking
>>about in both are/would be subtle. Both of these came to mind from
>>some of the recent posts.
>>
>>1. If a HOA allows you to ascend at different altars, fool your god,
>>pickup unaligned, intelligent, artifacts, etc., does it cause all/any
>>of the other effects of being the 'new' alignment. For example, could
>>a lawful wearing a HOA (so they 'look' chaotic) kill fleeing monsters
>>without penalty? Can a chaotic w/ HOA dip for Excalibur?
>
>
> IIRC, your alignment is really the new one -- with one exception:
> The Quest leader will not accept your alignment, if its 'correctness'
> is due to the HoOA (i.e., if you converted, then put on the helm for
> 'being lawful again'). But CMIIW.

I've known this was true for a long time, but does anyone know why? I
don't mean some RP reason, I just mean why would the Devs leave in this
*single* situation making the game unwinnable?
 
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On 5/20/05 12:48 PM, Andy Johnson wrote:
> Jakob Creutzig wrote:
>
>> IIRC, your alignment [when wearing a HoOA] is really the new one --
>> with one exception:
>> The Quest leader will not accept your alignment, if its
>> 'correctness' is due to the HoOA (i.e., if you converted, then put
>> on the helm for 'being lawful again'). But CMIIW.
>
> I've known this was true for a long time, but does anyone know why? I
> don't mean some RP reason, I just mean why would the Devs leave in this
> *single* situation making the game unwinnable?

*Sigh*

The HoOA only prevents you from entering the Quest as long as you have
it on. Remove it, you'll reconvert, and your Quest leader will let you in.

The only way for the game to become unwinnable is if you've actually
converted yourself before entering the Quest.

I don't know why *that* single situation is left in, other than that
it's a pretty unusual situation, and that a player who has the ability
to ascend is unlikely to have gotten himself into it. But then, I don't
see why there shouldn't be other situations that make the game unwinnable.

--
Kevin Wayne

"Art is a tremendous means by which painfully guarded individuals bare
their souls." --Steve Hindalong
 
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Kevin Wayne wrote:
> On 5/20/05 12:48 PM, Andy Johnson wrote:
>
>> Jakob Creutzig wrote:
>>
>>> IIRC, your alignment [when wearing a HoOA] is really the new one --
>>> with one exception:
>>> The Quest leader will not accept your alignment, if its
>>> 'correctness' is due to the HoOA (i.e., if you converted, then put
>>> on the helm for 'being lawful again'). But CMIIW.
>>
>>
>> I've known this was true for a long time, but does anyone know why? I
>> don't mean some RP reason, I just mean why would the Devs leave in
>> this *single* situation making the game unwinnable?
>
>
> *Sigh*

Why the sigh? I have not seen the question answered before.

> The HoOA only prevents you from entering the Quest as long as you have
> it on. Remove it, you'll reconvert, and your Quest leader will let you in.
>
> The only way for the game to become unwinnable is if you've actually
> converted yourself before entering the Quest.
>
> I don't know why *that* single situation is left in, other than that
> it's a pretty unusual situation, and that a player who has the ability
> to ascend is unlikely to have gotten himself into it. But then, I don't
> see why there shouldn't be other situations that make the game unwinnable.

This is exactly what I was asking - It seems inconsistent to have this
single situation. The HoOA acts in every way like you are the new
alignment, *except* for with the quest leader. And it's inconsistent on
two points: it also is the only unwinnable situation. It seems like
together there's a pretty strong case to just let the quest leader
recognize it.
 
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Andy Johnson wrote:

*snip*

> This is exactly what I was asking - It seems inconsistent to have this
> single situation. The HoOA acts in every way like you are the new
> alignment, *except* for with the quest leader. And it's inconsistent on
> two points: it also is the only unwinnable situation. It seems like
> together there's a pretty strong case to just let the quest leader
> recognize it.

Actually, you may be missing a subtle point. Having changed alignment
due only to wearing the HoOA does not make it impossible to do your
quest. What makes it impossible to do your quest is getting converted
through other means. When that happens, the HoOA cannot fix your mess,
even if you went from lawful to chaotic and the helm will make you
lawful again. If you're arguing that the HoOA should be a band-aid to
this, what should a neutral character that changes alignment do?

-Ken
 
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Ken Cuvelier wrote:
> Andy Johnson wrote:
>
> *snip*
>
>
>>This is exactly what I was asking - It seems inconsistent to have this
>>single situation. The HoOA acts in every way like you are the new
>>alignment, *except* for with the quest leader. And it's inconsistent on
>>two points: it also is the only unwinnable situation. It seems like
>>together there's a pretty strong case to just let the quest leader
>>recognize it.
>
>
> Actually, you may be missing a subtle point. Having changed alignment
> due only to wearing the HoOA does not make it impossible to do your
> quest. What makes it impossible to do your quest is getting converted
> through other means. When that happens, the HoOA cannot fix your mess,
> even if you went from lawful to chaotic and the helm will make you
> lawful again. If you're arguing that the HoOA should be a band-aid to
> this, what should a neutral character that changes alignment do?
>
> -Ken

There is no subtle point here to be missed. Maybe I just haven't
explained my question well enough:

Suppose I am lawful, and I haven't entered the quest yet. I try to
convert a chaotic altar while my alignment is negative, so now I am
chaotic. If I put on a helm of opposite alignment, then for all intents
and purposes, as long as the helm is on, I am lawful again EXCEPT in the
case of the quest leader. Why does the helm behave inconsistently here?

On a related note, the situation I describe above is the ONLY situation
that results in an unwinnable game. Again, this is inconsistent. I would
expect there either to be many unwinnable situations ("Hey, it's a hard
game!") or no unwinnable situations ("Hey, no matter how hard it is, you
still can win!").

For the first point you might just say "The quest leader is smart enough
to see through it," or some such explination, but I feel like that's
just molding our thoughts to fit the game. These two inconsistencies
stem from a single action (the quest leader not recognizing the helm)
and as far as I can tell, there's not really a good reason it should be
that way.

My question was all along, Is there a reason for this behavior? Can
someone explain the logic behind it?
 
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Andy Johnson wrote:

*snip*

> There is no subtle point here to be missed. Maybe I just haven't
> explained my question well enough:
>
> Suppose I am lawful, and I haven't entered the quest yet. I try to
> convert a chaotic altar while my alignment is negative, so now I am
> chaotic. If I put on a helm of opposite alignment, then for all intents
> and purposes, as long as the helm is on, I am lawful again EXCEPT in the
> case of the quest leader. Why does the helm behave inconsistently here?
>

Well what of the neutral character that becomes either lawful or
chaotic? The HoOA will not change align to neutral, ever, so if
escaping the consequences of switching alignments through other means or
misfortune is possible for the lawful or chaotic character, this makes
the game unwinnable only for neutral characters who become lawful or
chaotic.

> On a related note, the situation I describe above is the ONLY situation
> that results in an unwinnable game. Again, this is inconsistent. I would
> expect there either to be many unwinnable situations ("Hey, it's a hard
> game!") or no unwinnable situations ("Hey, no matter how hard it is, you
> still can win!").
>

Well, it *is* a hard game! ;) There are several things that *must* be
done in order to ascend, and completing your quest before you do
something silly that makes it undoable should be high on the list of
priorities. I sort of like the idea of having penalties for changing
deities that includes getting into an unwinnable scenario; I also
cherish the notion that no matter how bad things look, as long as you
have done the _required_ things you always have a chance to ascend. I
just put completing the quest before risking changing my character's
align (through some means other than accidentally wearing a HoOA) on
that list of required things. ;)

> For the first point you might just say "The quest leader is smart enough
> to see through it," or some such explination, but I feel like that's
> just molding our thoughts to fit the game. These two inconsistencies
> stem from a single action (the quest leader not recognizing the helm)
> and as far as I can tell, there's not really a good reason it should be
> that way.
>
> My question was all along, Is there a reason for this behavior? Can
> someone explain the logic behind it?

As for the reasoning behind the quest leader not being fooled, I would
say that the leader has a channel to the player's deity through which to
be informed of the offense causing permanent alignment change (HoOA is
not permanent, so causes no such event by itself). When you show up
having had your allegiance changed (through your own fault, to boot), it
only makes sense to me that the leader permanently shuns you.

-Ken
 
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schmultzburger wrote:

> 1. If a HOA allows you to ascend at different altars, fool your god,
> pickup unaligned, intelligent, artifacts, etc., does it cause all/any
> of the other effects of being the 'new' alignment. For example,
> could a lawful wearing a HOA (so they 'look' chaotic) kill fleeing
> monsters without penalty? Can a chaotic w/ HOA dip for Excalibur?

All of gthe above are possible, IIRC. The only thing *not* fooled by a
helmet of opposite alignment is your Quest leader, I believe.

> 2. If you dip a unihorn or amethyst (or HW, too, I guess) into an
> unpurchased potion in a shop and it changes to a potion with a
> different value, does your credit status with the shopkeeper change
> accordingly? Will you owe money or gain credit (if that is possible)?

I don't really know this one, although I expect you will owe money.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
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Ken Cuvelier wrote:

> As for the reasoning behind the quest leader not being fooled, I would
> say that the leader has a channel to the player's deity through which
> to be informed of the offense causing permanent alignment change
> (HoOA is not permanent, so causes no such event by itself). When you
> show up having had your allegiance changed (through your own fault,
> to boot), it only makes sense to me that the leader permanently shuns
> you.

As you can deduct from what he or she tells you, your Quest leader
already knew you *before* you started your adventure.

Hence, he or she knows your starting alignment, and cannot be fooled by
a mere piece of armour.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
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On Fri, 20 May 2005, Ken Cuvelier wrote:

> Well, it *is* a hard game! ;) There are several things that *must* be
> done in order to ascend, and completing your quest before you do
> something silly that makes it undoable should be high on the list of
> priorities. I sort of like the idea of having penalties for changing
> deities that includes getting into an unwinnable scenario; I also
> cherish the notion that no matter how bad things look, as long as you
> have done the _required_ things you always have a chance to ascend. I
> just put completing the quest before risking changing my character's
> align (through some means other than accidentally wearing a HoOA) on
> that list of required things. ;)

Well, I usually put "having a co-aligned altar" on a higher priority than
finishing the quest because it's often easier (if you find an altar (not
in temple) before the quest and holy water is a nice thing to have.

OTOH, I usually don't have negative alignement or angry my god (except by
stupid sacing chameleon/werecreatures... but after the second time I did
not did that again...) so I never happened to be converted while trying to
convert.

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
 
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Andy Johnson wrote:
> This is exactly what I was asking - It seems inconsistent to have this
> single situation [ that causes the game to be unwinnable ].

It's not only having alignment problems that can make the game
unwinnable - there are lots of other ways! For example, killing you
quest leader before going on the quest. But by far and away the easiest
way to make the game unwinnable is to die. That happens to me all the
time...

--LWM
 
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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> Ken Cuvelier wrote:
>
>
>>As for the reasoning behind the quest leader not being fooled, I would
>>say that the leader has a channel to the player's deity through which
>>to be informed of the offense causing permanent alignment change
>>(HoOA is not permanent, so causes no such event by itself). When you
>>show up having had your allegiance changed (through your own fault,
>>to boot), it only makes sense to me that the leader permanently shuns
>>you.
>
>
> As you can deduct from what he or she tells you, your Quest leader
> already knew you *before* you started your adventure.
>
> Hence, he or she knows your starting alignment, and cannot be fooled by
> a mere piece of armour.
>

But your god can be fooled by a mere piece of armor, while yor Quest
leader can only be fooled in certain cases?

If my starting alignment is chaotic, I accidentally turn lawful but
become chaotic again from a helm of opposite alignment, how does the
Quest Leader know it's the helm that's doing it? Even my god doesn't know!

--
____ (__)
/ \ (oo) -Shadow
|Moo. > \/
\____/
 
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Shadow wrote:
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>

*snip*

>> As you can deduct from what he or she tells you, your Quest leader
>> already knew you *before* you started your adventure.
>>
>> Hence, he or she knows your starting alignment, and cannot be fooled by
>> a mere piece of armour.
>>
>
> But your god can be fooled by a mere piece of armor, while yor Quest
> leader can only be fooled in certain cases?
>
> If my starting alignment is chaotic, I accidentally turn lawful but
> become chaotic again from a helm of opposite alignment, how does the
> Quest Leader know it's the helm that's doing it? Even my god doesn't know!
>

Your god simply ceases to care when you put on the HoOA; meanwhile, as
long as you are wearing it your new god calls the shots. "Accidentally"
turning lawful through means other than wearing this helm is the signal
to your god that you don't care enough to prevent such happenings, and
thus your Quest Leader is immediately informed. No deities are fooled
by this piece of armor; rather, they simply demand, as appropriate to
whatever align you end up with while wearing it, that you obey them.

Just my $0.02 ;)

-Ken
 
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On 5/20/05 6:03 PM, Andy Johnson wrote:
> Kevin Wayne wrote:
>
>>On 5/20/05 12:48 PM, Andy Johnson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Jakob Creutzig wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>IIRC, your alignment [when wearing a HoOA] is really the new one --
>>>>with one exception:
>>>>The Quest leader will not accept your alignment, if its
>>>>'correctness' is due to the HoOA (i.e., if you converted, then put
>>>>on the helm for 'being lawful again'). But CMIIW.
>>>
>>>
>>>I've known this was true for a long time, but does anyone know why? I
>>>don't mean some RP reason, I just mean why would the Devs leave in
>>>this *single* situation making the game unwinnable?
>>
>>
>>*Sigh*
>
>
> Why the sigh? I have not seen the question answered before.

Sorry. I hadn't read Jakob Creutzig's post closely enough, and I thought
that you were referring to the frequent misconception that putting on a
HoOA before the quest automatically makes the game unwinnable.

As I see downthread that you already know, the situation that makes the
game unwinnable has nothing to do with the HoOA at all. What we're
talking about here is a subset of that.
>
> This is exactly what I was asking - It seems inconsistent to have this
> single situation. The HoOA acts in every way like you are the new
> alignment, *except* for with the quest leader. And it's inconsistent on
> two points: it also is the only unwinnable situation. It seems like
> together there's a pretty strong case to just let the quest leader
> recognize it.

I think I agree with you. If your current alignment == your starting
alignment (which will automatically agree with the alignment of your
Quest Leader), then I think you should be let in. This would give an
"out" to the unwinnable situation, but one that is not immediately obvious.

Of course, as is noted by Ken Culvier, that would exclude neutrals from
this "fix." I'd therefore propose a change in the HoOA itself: it
randomly gives you one of the two remaining alignments (as it already
does for neutrals). Thus, there is always a *possibility* of converting
to the alignment you want, without the *certainty* of doing so.

--
Kevin Wayne

"Art is a tremendous means by which painfully guarded individuals bare
their souls." --Steve Hindalong
 
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Kevin Wayne <killedbyafoo@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Of course, as is noted by Ken Culvier, that would exclude neutrals from
> this "fix." I'd therefore propose a change in the HoOA itself: it
> randomly gives you one of the two remaining alignments (as it already
> does for neutrals). Thus, there is always a *possibility* of converting
> to the alignment you want, without the *certainty* of doing so.

The helm's name should then change to "helm of other alignment" or
maybe even "helm of random alignment," so that you could end up with a
cursed helm that randomly changes back to your previous alignment.

When I first ran into an opposite-alignment helm, my character was
neutral, and I was baffled as to what was "opposite" of neutral. As the
helm currently works, I see it creating an arbitrary bifurcation
between lawful/chaotic nature and neutral nature.

--
Bobby Schmidt
 
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On 5/21/05 8:05 PM, Shadow wrote:
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>
>> [Your Quest Leader] knows your starting alignment, and cannot be
>> fooled by a mere piece of armour.
>
> But your god can be fooled by a mere piece of armor, while yor Quest
> leader can only be fooled in certain cases?

Who says your god doesn't know? The god whose alignment you are with the
helmet on is *controlling* you through the helmet. Of course he's going
to be pleased with you if you're sacrificing to him and killing his
enemies. And the god whose alignment you were, just before putting the
helmet on, knows you're now playing for the other team and will no
longer listen to your prayers, even if you're on his altar (just wizmode
checked). In other words, the gods are only interested in who you happen
to be serving *now*. (Well, mostly. They won't let you reconvert if
you've permanently converted yourself.)

> If my starting alignment is chaotic, I accidentally turn lawful but
> become chaotic again from a helm of opposite alignment, how does the
> Quest Leader know it's the helm that's doing it? Even my god doesn't know!

Everyone in the dungeon knows what the HoOA looks like and what it does,
which is why they never use it. Only naive dungeon explorers don't know.

--
Kevin Wayne

"Art is a tremendous means by which painfully guarded individuals bare
their souls." --Steve Hindalong
 
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Andy Johnson wrote:
> Ken Cuvelier wrote:
>
> > ... What makes it impossible to do your quest is getting converted
> > through other means. When that happens, the HoOA cannot fix your
mess,
>
> There is no subtle point here to be missed. Maybe I just haven't
> explained my question well enough:
>
> Suppose I am lawful, and I haven't entered the quest yet. I try to
> convert a chaotic altar while my alignment is negative, so now I am
> chaotic. If I put on a helm of opposite alignment, then for all
intents
> and purposes, as long as the helm is on, I am lawful again EXCEPT in
the
> case of the quest leader. Why does the helm behave inconsistently
here?

Because the DevTeam decided that conversion before the
Quest makes the game unwinnable. We could get into why
the Quest leader is smarter than a diety, but that's only
a side effect of the DevTeam's decision.

> On a related note, the situation I describe above is the ONLY
situation
> that results in an unwinnable game. Again, this is inconsistent. I
would
> expect there either to be many unwinnable situations ("Hey, it's a
hard
> game!") or no unwinnable situations ("Hey, no matter how hard it is,
you
> still can win!").

There are other ways to make the game unwinnable. Dying
for example.

> For the first point you might just say "The quest leader is smart
enough
> to see through it," or some such explination, but I feel like that's
> just molding our thoughts to fit the game. These two inconsistencies
> stem from a single action (the quest leader not recognizing the helm)

> and as far as I can tell, there's not really a good reason it should
be
> that way.
>
> My question was all along, Is there a reason for this behavior? Can
> someone explain the logic behind it?

Most uses of the HoOA *after the Quest* are matters of
making the game easier once you've already gotten so
far towards ascension you could win anyways. Being
chaotic makes climbing out of hell less tedious but
characters who've already gotten the Amulet shouldn't
*need* that ease. Being able to offer at a different
altar in the final level doesn't change the fact that
most characters who made it to one altar can get to
another altar.

So I think it is consistant. The question is whether
I agree with the DevTeam's decision that converting
before the Quest should make the game unwinnable.
That includes making conversion permanent. I don't
have an opinion on that decision beyond the fact that
I have learned that the decision was made.
 
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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> Ken Cuvelier wrote:
>
>
>>As for the reasoning behind the quest leader not being fooled, I would
>>say that the leader has a channel to the player's deity through which
>>to be informed of the offense causing permanent alignment change
>>(HoOA is not permanent, so causes no such event by itself). When you
>>show up having had your allegiance changed (through your own fault,
>>to boot), it only makes sense to me that the leader permanently shuns
>>you.
>
>
> As you can deduct from what he or she tells you, your Quest leader
> already knew you *before* you started your adventure.
>
> Hence, he or she knows your starting alignment, and cannot be fooled by
> a mere piece of armour.

But the point under discussion was precisely that you use the helm to
get *back* to your original alignment after having converted. So why
should the quest leader feel you are attempting to fool him if you have
exactly the alignment that he knows about?

I agree that there is an inconsistency here. If your alignment by helm
is not as good as an alignment change by conversion, there should be
other situations where this shows up. Not on the astral plane, of
course. The fact that a *wrong* god accepts taking the amulet from your
hands has nothing to do with him not being able to see through your
move. He just wants the amulet and rewards you for trying to get as
close as possible to his alignment in addition (he would also take the
amulet if you were a different alignment but would not reward you).
 
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On 5/21/05 11:51 PM, Bobby Schmidt wrote:
> Kevin Wayne <killedbyafoo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>I'd propose a change in the HoOA itself: it
>>randomly gives you one of the two remaining alignments (as it already
>>does for neutrals). Thus, there is always a *possibility* of converting
>>to the alignment you want, without the *certainty* of doing so.
>
> The helm's name should then change to "helm of other alignment" or
> maybe even "helm of random alignment," so that you could end up with a
> cursed helm that randomly changes back to your previous alignment.

Yes. "Helm of Other Alignment" is what I thought of at first, probably
just to keep the initials the same. I like "Helm of Disalignment" even
better.
>
> When I first ran into an opposite-alignment helm, my character was
> neutral, and I was baffled as to what was "opposite" of neutral. As the
> helm currently works, I see it creating an arbitrary bifurcation
> between lawful/chaotic nature and neutral nature.
>
Yes.

--
Kevin Wayne

"Art is a tremendous means by which painfully guarded individuals bare
their souls." --Steve Hindalong
 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Klaus Kassner wrote:

>> As you can deduct from what he or she tells you, your Quest leader
>> already knew you *before* you started your adventure.
>>
>> Hence, he or she knows your starting alignment, and cannot be fooled by
>> a mere piece of armour.
>
> But the point under discussion was precisely that you use the helm to
> get *back* to your original alignment after having converted. So why
> should the quest leader feel you are attempting to fool him if you have
> exactly the alignment that he knows about?
>
> I agree that there is an inconsistency here. If your alignment by helm
> is not as good as an alignment change by conversion, there should be
> other situations where this shows up. Not on the astral plane, of
> course. The fact that a *wrong* god accepts taking the amulet from your
> hands has nothing to do with him not being able to see through your
> move. He just wants the amulet and rewards you for trying to get as
> close as possible to his alignment in addition (he would also take the
> amulet if you were a different alignment but would not reward you).

I can just see the scenario in the demigods' bar:
"Hey, baby. Why don't you take that helmet off, make yourself comfortable?"
"Okay sureOH GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE?!"
 
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Klaus Kassner <Klaus.Kassner@physik.uni-magdeburg.de> wrote:

> I agree that there is an inconsistency here. If your alignment by helm
> is not as good as an alignment change by conversion, there should be
> other situations where this shows up. Not on the astral plane, of
> course. The fact that a *wrong* god accepts taking the amulet from your
> hands has nothing to do with him not being able to see through your
> move.

Possibly, but where then? It has to be more important than merely
talking to a priest or even the Gehennom Force, or the HoOA would be
completely useless; but it has to be less important than Astral, for the
reasons you mention. The only thing I can think of it talking to major
demons, which seems rather pointless.

Richard
 
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Kevin Wayne wrote:
> On 5/21/05 11:51 PM, Bobby Schmidt wrote:
> > Kevin Wayne <killedbyafoo@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > The helm's name should then change to "helm of other alignment" or
> > maybe even "helm of random alignment," so that you could end up with a
> > cursed helm that randomly changes back to your previous alignment.
>
> Yes. "Helm of Other Alignment" is what I thought of at first, probably
> just to keep the initials the same. I like "Helm of Disalignment" even
> better.

Helm of Realignment? Once you wear it, it changes (randomly and
permanently) into a "helm of choas", "helm of law" or "helm of
neutrality". Wishing or polypiling for a helm of any particular
alignment just gets you a plain old helm of realignment, so there's no
sure way to get exactly what you want- you just have to keep acquiring
and wearing (and uncursing) helms of realignment until one fo them
becomes the alignment you want.

Also, how about a helm of unalignment? It would be cool if you could
*really* awitch sides, and win the game for Moloch=-)
 
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In article <1117526973.119871.32000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
dogscoff@eudoramail.com wrote:

> Also, how about a helm of unalignment? It would be cool if you could
> *really* awitch sides, and win the game for Moloch=-)

Moloch already has the amulet. Or atleast his high priest has.

--
Panu
"You haven't really been anywhere until you've got back home",
Twoflower in "The Light Fantastic"
 
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Panu Lahtinen wrote:

> Moloch already has the amulet. Or atleast his high priest has.

He's on an altar to Moloch.

Why doesn't he offer it?

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.