[s] Altar conversion puzzle

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The short version of the question:

I just killed my pet (system shock with a wand of poly) and need to
convert an altar asap. i do not have other co-aligned altar at hand for
molifying (if needed). What would be the best things to do ?

Now for the long story (if some more details are needed):

I'm playing a chaotic vampire barbare. I find a huge bone file at the mall
and got a lot of cursed stuff to put in my BoH (found in a shop earlier).
Since there are two different 80$ scrolls, cursedness should no be a
problem once I have holy water.
So, I went to the mine, hopping that the altar would be co-aligned. Going
straight to minetown and found out that the altar is cross-aligned
(neutral).
A machiavelous plan formed in my mind: kill the priest and then sacrifice
him (human) to auto-convert the altar to chaotic without any risk (I
thought that vampire 'base race' would be human since they leave human
corpses when killed).
So, in order to avoid blood on my hands (I only like it in my mouth), I
decide to use that wand of poly and get a pet capable of dealing with the
priest (and the guards, and, with luck, the shopkeepers).

But, my dog died of systme shock before being turn in anything powerfull
enough :-( Got a message about my god not liking that.

I managed to get another pet and turn him into a jabberwock :-) enough fot
the priest and the guard, not for the shopkeepers.

He killed the priestlike a charm, I sacced the corpse... with no effect !
(usual failder altar conversion message). I assume vampire are not
considered to be human as base race.

Well, now I would really like to get that altar converted and be able to
pray for holy water... What would be the safer course for that ?
(I think I have an uncursed luckstone on me, so probably positive luck.
Trun is a bit more than 4000 and I've killed a lot of things, so probably
quite good alignment too.)


Subsidiary question: if one of the numerous potions I've found in that
bone file turn out to be restore ability, would hitting my rand new
jabberwock with it be a good idea (to prevent him from unpolymorphing) ?

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

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On Wed, 25 May 2005, Phlimm wrote:

> Jym babbled on for HOURS on 25 May 2005:
>
> > Well, now I would really like to get that altar converted and be able
> > to pray for holy water... What would be the safer course for that ?
> > (I think I have an uncursed luckstone on me, so probably positive
> > luck. Trun is a bit more than 4000 and I've killed a lot of things, so
> > probably quite good alignment too.)
>
> Not really sure if any of the stories apply...why not just sac dead
> monsters on it until it converts? The rinse and repeat to get to a safe
> prayer place.

Because killing my pet as I just did give a *huge* penalty (to alignment
and maybe also to luck, can't remeber) and I would *really* hate being
converted instead of converting the altar (especially before the quest...)
Since I'm no professionnal spoiler/code diver, I don't know if it's
perfectly safe, midly safe or completly unsafe to go for a sac-fest
conversion right now... (eg, if killing pet had angered my god, saccing on
a cross aligned altar would be a really bad idea...)

> > Subsidiary question: if one of the numerous potions I've found in that
> > bone file turn out to be restore ability, would hitting my rand new
> > jabberwock with it be a good idea (to prevent him from unpolymorphing)
> > ?
>
> You do get some sort of message when you hit a polyed pet with a !oRA, but
> the best it does (if it does ANYTHING) is delay the inevitable. AFAICT The
> pet always morphs back. Bummer, eh?

Damn :-( So maybe my first priority right now would be to go back to the
mall and let my jabberwock take care of the guards here...

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

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In news:<MPG.1d001cafd8b7377c9896ce@130.133.1.4>, Kristoffer Björkman
<kristoffer.bjorkman@frontnet.org> says...
> OK, you forgot to tell us how many turns into the game you are, and if
> there is any reason for us to think that you should not be close to your
> maximum alignment.

Erm, make that "have been (before your pet splattering accident)" of
course.

/Kristoffer

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In news:<Pine.LNX.4.51.0505262131460.18553@hagen.loria.fr>, Jym
<moyen@loria.fr> says...
> On Thu, 26 May 2005, Kristoffer Björkman wrote:
> > In news:<Pine.LNX.4.51.0505260209530.723@hagen.loria.fr>, Jym
> > <moyen@loria.fr> says...
> > > On Wed, 25 May 2005, Phlimm wrote:
> > > > Jym babbled on for HOURS on 25 May 2005:
[...]
> > > > > luck. Trun is a bit more than 4000 and I've killed a lot of things, so
> !!!!
[...]
> > OK, you forgot to tell us how many turns into the game you are, and if
> around 4000 (and I didn't forgot to tell :-P).

Oops! Sorry for sloppy reading, and doubly sorry for the accusation!

Good luck with the conversion and mollifying..!

/Kristoffer

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Phlimm wrote:
> Jym wrote:
>
> > Well, now I would really like to get that altar converted and be able
> > to pray for holy water... What would be the safer course for that ?
> > (I think I have an uncursed luckstone on me, so probably positive
> > luck. Trun is a bit more than 4000 and I've killed a lot of things, so
> > probably quite good alignment too.)
>
> Not really sure if any of the stories apply...why not just sac dead
> monsters on it until it converts? The rinse and repeat to get to a safe
> prayer place.

Failing to convert an altar decreases your luck. Lower luck
decreases the chance of converting the next try. You could
end up with your diety angry and getting converted if you do
it wrong.

Keys to conversion: Level- the higher the better but should
be at least XP 5. Good- the higher the better but should
absolutely be at least zero. Check the spoilers to see if
killing a pet effects luck or just alignment. Use the
unconverted altar to check that the stone is at least
uncursed, do something to figure out if it's a luckstone.

I'll never try to convert an altar until I am XP 5 and if I
fail I only try again every 1000 turns just in case.

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Your client seems to remove the [S] in the subject line. I put it back.
I hope it wasn't removed on purpose, to mark this as no longer a
Slash'EM specific discussion, but I thought it was just due to the known
bug in Google Groups.

In news:<1117233098.727434.45630@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Doug
Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo.com> says...
> Phlimm wrote:
> > Jym wrote:
> > > Well, now I would really like to get that altar converted and be able
> > > to pray for holy water... What would be the safer course for that ?
> > > (I think I have an uncursed luckstone on me, so probably positive
> > > luck. Trun is a bit more than 4000 and I've killed a lot of things, so
> > > probably quite good alignment too.)
> > Not really sure if any of the stories apply...why not just sac dead
> > monsters on it until it converts? The rinse and repeat to get to a safe
> > prayer place.
> Failing to convert an altar decreases your luck. Lower luck
> decreases the chance of converting the next try. You could
> end up with your diety angry and getting converted if you do
> it wrong.

Yes there is a -3 luck penalty on failing, but AFAIK the altar
conversion chance is always "( XPlvl + 2 ) / ( XPlvl + 8 )". And getting
converted oneself doesn't have anything to do with luck AFAIK - it isn't
possible unless you have a negative alignment.
Eventual luck penalty can soon be restored after conversion, since you
get a luck bonus from sacrificing already from difficulty level 5
monsters.
Unless there is some Slash'EM difference here?

> Keys to conversion: Level- the higher the better but should
> be at least XP 5.

(That gives you a 7/13 chance.)

> Good- the higher the better but should
> absolutely be at least zero.

Hmm, are you referring to alignment here? As long as it is above zero
everything should be OK.

> Check the spoilers to see if killing a pet effects luck or just
> alignment. Use the unconverted altar to check that the stone is
> at least uncursed, do something to figure out if it's a luckstone.

The (vanilla) spoilers say that alignment is the important thing. I
can't find anything about luck affecting the chances of conveting an
altar.
Praying is often affected by luck and often affects luck.
Sacrificing is not affected by luck but often affects luck.
http://www.steelypips.org/nethack/pray.html#p7
http://www.helsinki.fi/~vviitane/spoilers/altars (some errors here)

> I'll never try to convert an altar until I am XP 5 and if I
> fail I only try again every 1000 turns just in case.

I can agree that there are usually better things to do if you are under
XPlvl 5.
The waiting time will perhaps be a good precaution against quickly
lowering your luck, but since converting the altar isn't affected by
luck, perhaps you could be better off finishing the conversion and then
doing some sacrifices to get your luck back to where you want it. As
long as you can get a supply of monsters of at least difficulty level 5.

Furthermore, there is a reason to convert altars before you reach XPlvl
7, since that is the lower limit for a minion of tha altar's original
god to be summoned (no matter if the conversion succeeded).

/Kristoffer

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In news:<d7994f$ntb$1@services.kq.no>, Sidsel Horvei <sidsel@ii.uib.no>
says...
> JH wrote:
> > Jym wrote:
> >> speed boots, cloak of protection, amulet versus stone (probably one
> >> of the best for vampires), 2 scrolls of geno (c will probably go soon
> >> just to avoid a bitting YASD...), potions of speed (smoky), gain
> >> ability, and a few other things.
> > From what I remember when I played [s], the vampire player race is smart
> > enough to not bite certain creatures (a player polyselfed into a vampire
> > lord or such will not). You may want to confirm this in wizard mode, as
> > it has been a while, but I'm fairly certain that when I played vamps in
> > [s] I could safely attack anything and bites would only happen on
> > non-leathal things
> I thought so too, and it worked fine until I had been infested with
> lycanthropy, purified, and then tried fighting a c. Oops, bit into it! Is
> this a bug? Shouldn't the vampire remember what to do, even after a stint
> as a werecreature?

Check if this is in the bug list, otherwise I think it should be
reported.

/Kristoffer

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Jym wrote:
>
> The priest was killed by my pet, so I don't think I got the bonus. For the
> 'own race' part, I'm not sure it was considered so (praying spoiler speaks
> about immediate conversion to chaotic when sacrificing own race), which
> seems strange but I'm not [s] source diver to tell what is the base race
> of vampire characters...
>

That reminds me, no one has said anything about this yet.

The base race of vampire characters are... vampires. I know, strange.
This means the only way you can get a corpse of your own race is from
fire vampires, star vampires, and possibly one other thing but I forget...

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Jym wrote:
>
> When you sacrifice your own race, the altar is immediatly converted to
> chaotic and a demon lord is summoned.
> Will that demon lord still be at home whenyou'll cross his level ? Will he
> teleport to that spot ? Or will he stay upstairs ?
>
> And if he stays upstairs, will he still be peacfull during the ascencion
> run ?

I play vanilla so this may be wrong on Slashem.

The demon lord will stay upstairs and stay peacefull.
It is a good way in the early/middle game to reduce
risk in the late game. It is also a way to get extra
points early if you decide to kill him.

> Is that a way to take care of Demogorgon (for chaotic characters) by
> summoning him peacfull and then going down ?

Demogorgon is a demon *prince* in vanilla not a demon
*lord". Only two of them are lords.

> Or will this just makes a way to deal with Demogorgon at the moment you
> choose (summon him, max out that pet solar, watch them play) ?

Demon lords can gate in other demons including demon
princes. In the middle game it is probably not a good
idea to fight Y..., decline to kill him, and let him
gate in other demons. That's a late game strategy for
extremely high characters.

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On Sun, 29 May 2005, Doug Freyburger wrote:

> Jym wrote:
> >
> > When you sacrifice your own race, the altar is immediatly converted to
> > chaotic and a demon lord is summoned.
> > Will that demon lord still be at home whenyou'll cross his level ? Will he
> > teleport to that spot ? Or will he stay upstairs ?
> >
> > And if he stays upstairs, will he still be peacfull during the ascencion
> > run ?
>
> I play vanilla so this may be wrong on Slashem.
>
> The demon lord will stay upstairs and stay peacefull.
> It is a good way in the early/middle game to reduce
> risk in the late game. It is also a way to get extra
> points early if you decide to kill him.
>
> > Is that a way to take care of Demogorgon (for chaotic characters) by
> > summoning him peacfull and then going down ?
>
> Demogorgon is a demon *prince* in vanilla not a demon
> *lord". Only two of them are lords.

Right. So this won't work :-(

> > Or will this just makes a way to deal with Demogorgon at the moment you
> > choose (summon him, max out that pet solar, watch them play) ?
>
> Demon lords can gate in other demons including demon
> princes. In the middle game it is probably not a good
> idea to fight Y..., decline to kill him, and let him
> gate in other demons. That's a late game strategy for
> extremely high characters.

Yes, if all of this can be taken care of with pets (is [s], Solar have
high enough level to attack Demogorgon I think), this would be alright...
If you have to battle a randomly summoned Demogorgon, well, then you can
(almost) as well do that on his own level.

[Since slash'em has a special level for Demogorgon, the whole point of the
stuff would have been to summon him early in order to kill him at the time
of your choice, not his. Doing that for Y. or J. is not really interesting
since they're not so hard to kill.]

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.