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Monk LVL 11 = death

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Anonymous
June 10, 2005 3:02:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Dear group,

as all of you i run my small nethack-lab here and keep experimenting to
reach that legendary "ascension" everybody is talking about. My
greatest achievement so far has been a scummed wizard who bit the dust
in the Astral Plane. Scumming is boring and not worth the effort, but
seeing for the first time the evil DEATH bringing my hitpoints down to
lousy 20 was an experience. I subsequently deleted the efforts of this
scumwizard from the logs.

Normally i play the monk. He doesn't need to care too much about
weapons, he gets his intrinsic by leveling up, can safely go first to
Minetown, because he is strong and fast.

And that is the problem. A monk is too easy in the beginning and makes
me careless. Here is my record of my past 3 better monks

a) Monk (11) self-genocided by throne-genocide (the guy wanted to
genocide "master mind flayer", the game decided i wanted to genocide
Monks), i wrote about that recently

b) Next Monk (10), equipped with WoW and PYEC went to Minetown with
some $$ to buy protection, bought protection giving all his money, went
to Izchak, tried if a lamp worked, USAGE FEE 16 $, tell that some monk
who does not have any $$, instead of thinking i wanted to escape fast
and bit the dust in Minetown

c) Next Monk(11) met a wumpus on the last lvl of Sokoban, Wumpus to the
left, trap door to the right, Wumpus hit me hard, bringing my HP down
to 12, hm let's pray, Deitiy is pleased and decides to uncurse my
armor, well thank you very much. In the next turn wumpus makes deadmeat
out of me

The thing is: b) and c) could have been saved

b) could wish for some $$ with his bloody WoW, paying off Izchak and
buying more protection
c) could have easily jumped into the trapdoor

But with a supermonk whacking his way through the dungeons, not having
any real enemy until late in the game you just think "Come on, i can
handle this easily, just one more hit and the critter is dead" .......
Sooner or later any character is on auto-pilot (normally later in the
game). The monk starts in auto-pilot-mode.

So he is overpowered and easy to start with but he is hard like any
other character.

Playing tourists and rogues for a change now

Regards

Uli

More about : monk lvl death

Anonymous
June 10, 2005 6:51:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Lars Kecke wrote:
> uli2003wien@lycos.at wrote:

> > b) could wish for some $$ with his bloody WoW, paying off Izchak and
> > buying more protection

> a wasted wish IMHO, wands of death are re-usable.

On Izchak? Shame on you...
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 7:37:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Ohle Claussen wrote:
> I always thought that people who reached
> Gehennom (or even just completed the quest) are bound to ascend within
> the next few tries.

Hell no. I must have seen the quest over a dozen times now (vanilla and
slashem) and completed it most of those. Despite that I've only been to
the castle twice, and only been beyond that once (where I died on the
first demon prince level).

I only ever play wizards though, and I find getting to the quest a real
chore. I'll play a hundred games without getting beyond the oracle, and
then suddenly everything falls into place and I'm storming through the
game, swatting monsters left and right.

The pattern seems to be with altars. If I can survive to level 6 or 7,
find an altar there and set up a nice little camp with a sturdy chest
and some food from soko, then I'm sorted. Sac for magicbane and after
that it all gets a *lot* easier.
Related resources
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Anonymous
June 10, 2005 1:00:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

uli2003wien@lycos.at wrote:

> as all of you i run my small nethack-lab here and keep experimenting
> to reach that legendary "ascension" everybody is talking about. My
> greatest achievement so far has been a scummed wizard who bit the dust
> in the Astral Plane.

> Normally i play the monk. He doesn't need to care too much about
> weapons, he gets his intrinsic by leveling up, can safely go first to
> Minetown, because he is strong and fast.

You do realise that monks are considered among the most difficult
classes, do you?

> And that is the problem. A monk is too easy in the beginning and makes
> me careless. Here is my record of my past 3 better monks

It's not just the carelessness. Even without, mid-level monks are
difficult to play. The weaponlessness doesn't hurt in the beginning, but
after a while, a weapon becomes better, even for monks.

> Sooner or later any character is on auto-pilot (normally later in the
> game). The monk starts in auto-pilot-mode.

That is indeed where you went wrong. No character should ever go in
auto-pilot mode.

> Playing tourists and rogues for a change now

Why pick a difficult class *again*? If you notice that you're still very
much a beginner, I'd suggest you play one of the easier classes
(valkyrie, barbarian, samurai), just to be able to play without thinking
too much.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 2:24:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 2005-06-10, uli2003wien@lycos.at wrote:
> Thanks to all for advice on my playing style so far :-)
>
> Here's my best chars do far
> Valk - died in gehennom
> Wiz - died on ascension run
> Ranger - died in Gehennom
> Samurai - died in Gehennom
> Rogue - died on the quest
> Healer - died on the quest
> Monk - died in Gehennom
>
That seems unusual to me. I always thought that people who reached
Gehennom (or even just completed the quest) are bound to ascend within
the next few tries. You did get to Gehennom (more than) five times without
ascending once? My first and only ascension (Valk) was the first time I
made the quest. I thought that was rather common. Maybe you're switching
classes too often?

greetings,
Ohle
--
Jann Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
http://www.stud.uni-goettingen.de/~s251251
BOFH Excuse #289:
Interference between the keyboard and the chair.
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 2:52:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In news:<d8bdqn$g9c$1@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>, Boudewijn Waijers
<kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> says...
> uli2003wien@lycos.at wrote:
> > Normally i play the monk. He doesn't need to care too much about
> > weapons, he gets his intrinsic by leveling up, can safely go first to
> > Minetown, because he is strong and fast.
> You do realise that monks are considered among the most difficult
> classes, do you?

I think that the reason to why a lot of beginners (including myself many
years ago) like playing monks is because the player has not yet grasped
the whole weapon/armor/intrinsicgaining systems well. Playing a monk
then seems to make the players task much more fun and less fumbling
around with the trial/YASD method.

> > And that is the problem. A monk is too easy in the beginning and makes
> > me careless. Here is my record of my past 3 better monks
> It's not just the carelessness. Even without, mid-level monks are
> difficult to play. The weaponlessness doesn't hurt in the beginning, but
> after a while, a weapon becomes better, even for monks.

Agreed for vanilla.
But a Slash'EM monk can hold his own with marial arts pretty well. :) 

> > Sooner or later any character is on auto-pilot (normally later in the
> > game). The monk starts in auto-pilot-mode.
> That is indeed where you went wrong. No character should ever go in
> auto-pilot mode.

True, but I think I understand what the OP means, and this is much
related to my first paragraph. By playing a monk, you can work around
the rather tedious 'getting aquainted with different weapons' thing, and
do more straight 'dungeon exploring'

> > Playing tourists and rogues for a change now

Ouch.

> Why pick a difficult class *again*? If you notice that you're still very
> much a beginner, I'd suggest you play one of the easier classes
> (valkyrie, barbarian, samurai), just to be able to play without thinking
> too much.

The OP certainly seems to have a knack for difficult classes - try
following Boudewijn's advice if you want an easier Nethack life.

/Kristoffer

--
This cookie has a scrap of paper inside. It reads:
Gurl fnl gung jung tbrf qbja gur qenva zvtug pbzr onpx hc.
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 3:11:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Ohle Claussen wrote:

> On 2005-06-10, uli2003wien@lycos.at wrote:
>> Thanks to all for advice on my playing style so far :-)
>>
>> Here's my best chars do far
>> Valk - died in gehennom
>> Wiz - died on ascension run
>> Ranger - died in Gehennom
>> Samurai - died in Gehennom
>> Rogue - died on the quest
>> Healer - died on the quest
>> Monk - died in Gehennom
>>
> That seems unusual to me. I always thought that people who reached
> Gehennom (or even just completed the quest) are bound to ascend within
> the next few tries.

I think there's some truth to this for players who are spoiled/experienced
enough to prepare properly, but probably not for others. I made it to
Gehennom more than once before I ascended when I was completely unspoiled,
but in retrospect those characters were not well prepared, didn't know how
to make the most of a wand of wishing, didn't prepare any holy water, etc.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 3:24:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Kristoffer Björkman wrote:

>
> In news:<d8bdqn$g9c$1@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>, Boudewijn Waijers
> <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> says...
> > uli2003wien@lycos.at wrote:
> > > Normally i play the monk. He doesn't need to care too much about
> > > weapons, he gets his intrinsic by leveling up, can safely go first to
> > > Minetown, because he is strong and fast.
> > You do realise that monks are considered among the most difficult
> > classes, do you?
>
> I think that the reason to why a lot of beginners (including myself many
> years ago) like playing monks is because the player has not yet grasped
> the whole weapon/armor/intrinsicgaining systems well. Playing a monk
> then seems to make the players task much more fun and less fumbling
> around with the trial/YASD method.

Agree. Being able to forgo almost completly weapons and armor in the eraly
game make things easier. And I did play monk a lot (until I ascend one,
actually).
Plus monks start with lot of food which is not to be neglected for
beginners (you don't have to try every corpses with the bad consequence we
all know, you don't have to remember you can pray for food,...)
Gaining good intrisics frequently is also nice since you don't have to use
rings in the eraly game (warning, searching). And poison resistance allows
a drinking fountain strategy which is often shared by beginners. And being
fast is nice even if beginners do not always realize that (I didn't until
quite late).

And yes, early monks do enough damage to kill a gnome at first blow,
making mine-first a good strategy to quickly gain a few levels (which is
not an overall good strategy but often used by beginners... leading to
soldier ants YASSD, of course). I usually hang around the first mine
level, even with my XL1 monks, just to kill 2 gnomes and get poison
resistance.

> > > And that is the problem. A monk is too easy in the beginning and makes
> > > me careless. Here is my record of my past 3 better monks
> > It's not just the carelessness. Even without, mid-level monks are
> > difficult to play. The weaponlessness doesn't hurt in the beginning, but
> > after a while, a weapon becomes better, even for monks.
>
> Agreed for vanilla.
> But a Slash'EM monk can hold his own with marial arts pretty well. :) 

Agree. Plus slash'em monk have such a nice AC, making them really easier
to play (even if I still had no ascencion with them, my closest end up
with my first (and only) encounter with the big D.)

> > > Sooner or later any character is on auto-pilot (normally later in the
> > > game). The monk starts in auto-pilot-mode.
> > That is indeed where you went wrong. No character should ever go in
> > auto-pilot mode.
>
> True, but I think I understand what the OP means, and this is much
> related to my first paragraph. By playing a monk, you can work around
> the rather tedious 'getting aquainted with different weapons' thing, and
> do more straight 'dungeon exploring'

Right. For monks, any weapon (except a few daggers/shuriken/darts/...) and
body armor go straigth to shops to make money. Less thinking.

> > > Playing tourists and rogues for a change now
>
> Ouch.
>
> > Why pick a difficult class *again*? If you notice that you're still very
> > much a beginner, I'd suggest you play one of the easier classes
> > (valkyrie, barbarian, samurai), just to be able to play without thinking
> > too much.
>
> The OP certainly seems to have a knack for difficult classes - try
> following Boudewijn's advice if you want an easier Nethack life.

Playing tourists teached me a lot about pet usage... Protection run with a
gnomish healer too. Now I'm able to reach minetown with a XL3/4 characters
while at teh beginning (inlcuding my only ascencion), I wasn't there
before XL7 and usually could not buy protection before XL8-10...

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 3:35:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

uli2003wien@lycos.at wrote:
> Dear group,
>
> as all of you i run my small nethack-lab here and keep experimenting to
> reach that legendary "ascension" everybody is talking about. My
> greatest achievement so far has been a scummed wizard who bit the dust
> in the Astral Plane.

Which kind of scumming was that? save scumming or rerolling for
uber-equipment?

> Scumming is boring and not worth the effort, but
> seeing for the first time the evil DEATH bringing my hitpoints down to
> lousy 20 was an experience.

MR helps a bit here. Anyway, you'd better try eXplore mode, just like
save scumming, but without the logs.

> And that is the problem. A monk is too easy in the beginning and makes
> me careless.

But after that he needs extra care (ring of damage, lots of divine
protection, artifacts for MR, etc.

> Here is my record of my past 3 better monks
>
> a) Monk (11) self-genocided by throne-genocide (the guy wanted to
> genocide "master mind flayer", the game decided i wanted to genocide
> Monks), i wrote about that recently

Condolences.

> b) Next Monk (10), equipped with WoW and PYEC went to Minetown with
> some $$ to buy protection, bought protection giving all his money, went
> to Izchak, tried if a lamp worked, USAGE FEE 16 $, tell that some monk
> who does not have any $$, instead of thinking i wanted to escape fast
> and bit the dust in Minetown

Here the old levitate-and-break-wand-of-digging trick (or any form of
teleportation) should work, simply digging down is not recommended since
the shopkeeper will grab your backpack.

> c) Next Monk(11) met a wumpus on the last lvl of Sokoban, Wumpus to the
> left, trap door to the right, Wumpus hit me hard, bringing my HP down
> to 12, hm let's pray, Deitiy is pleased and decides to uncurse my
> armor, well thank you very much. In the next turn wumpus makes deadmeat
> out of me

Praying for HP only works when below 5 or 1/7 max.

> The thing is: b) and c) could have been saved
>
> b) could wish for some $$ with his bloody WoW, paying off Izchak and
> buying more protection

a wasted wish IMHO, wands of death are re-usable.

> Sooner or later any character is on auto-pilot (normally later in the
> game). The monk starts in auto-pilot-mode.

but should witch to manual after minetown.

> So he is overpowered and easy to start with but he is hard like any
> other character.
>
> Playing tourists and rogues for a change now

No Barbs or Valks?
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 3:59:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jakob Creutzig wrote:

> psmithnews@spod-central.org (Dylan O'Donnell) writes:
>
>> samwid@gmail.com writes:
>>> I'm not sure if Izchak only buys light sources or tools in general,
>>> though.
>>
>> Izchak will only buy candles, lanterns, or lamps. In general, a shop
>> will only buy what it could have sold;
>
> s/could/usually could/.
>
> Tool shops can sell items which they don't buy back.

All shops can sell items they won't buy back. Are you talking about the
original stock of the shop?

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 4:43:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Ohle Claussen wrote:

> I always thought that people who reached Gehennom (or even just
> completed the quest) are bound to ascend within the next few tries.

I reached Gehennom several times before my first ascension; I don't have
the statistics at hand, but certainly more than five times, with two
deaths on the Elemental Planes. And a few other characters before that
completed the quest but died on the way down.

--
Philipp Lucas
phlucas@online-club.de
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 7:26:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

samwid@gmail.com writes:
> I'm not sure if Izchak only buys light sources or tools in general,
> though.

Izchak will only buy candles, lanterns, or lamps. In general, a shop
will only buy what it could have sold; however, if a shop sells random
items of a given type, it will buy items of that type even if they
have a random generation probability of 0.

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "At the sushi counter of life, you must use the chopsticks of ambition :
: to grab the sashimi of accomplishment or you will be left with the :
: wasabi of disappointment." -- Dan Shiovitz :
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 12:33:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

psmithnews@spod-central.org (Dylan O'Donnell) writes:

> samwid@gmail.com writes:
> > I'm not sure if Izchak only buys light sources or tools in general,
> > though.
>
> Izchak will only buy candles, lanterns, or lamps. In general, a shop
> will only buy what it could have sold;

s/could/usually could/.

Tool shops can sell items which they don't buy back.

Best,
Jakob
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 1:17:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005, Benjamin Lewis wrote:

> Jakob Creutzig wrote:
>
> > psmithnews@spod-central.org (Dylan O'Donnell) writes:
> >
> >> samwid@gmail.com writes:
> >>> I'm not sure if Izchak only buys light sources or tools in general,
> >>> though.
> >>
> >> Izchak will only buy candles, lanterns, or lamps. In general, a shop
> >> will only buy what it could have sold;
> >
> > s/could/usually could/.
> >
> > Tool shops can sell items which they don't buy back.
>
> All shops can sell items they won't buy back. Are you talking about the
> original stock of the shop?

Even the original stock of most shop can contain items they won't buy
back. Rocks, flintstone or glasses (after ided) come into mind.

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 2:45:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

dogscoff@eudoramail.com wrote:
>
> Lars Kecke wrote:
>
>>uli2003wien@lycos.at wrote:
>
>>>b) could wish for some $$ with his bloody WoW, paying off Izchak and
>>>buying more protection
>
>>a wasted wish IMHO, wands of death are re-usable.
>
> On Izchak? Shame on you...

Well, I wouldn't kill him for his money, and I even lock him in to
prevent my pet from doing so, but when he's between me and the exit I
wouldn't go out of my way (and wishing for money is far out) to spare him.

Lars
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 6:11:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Benjamin Lewis wrote:
> Jakob Creutzig wrote:
>
>>Tool shops can sell items which they don't buy back.
>
>
> All shops can sell items they won't buy back. Are you talking about the
> original stock of the shop?

Tool shops' original stock can include containers that contain
non-tools. They'll sell those non-tools, but won't buy them back.

Do mimics count as original stock?

--
John Campbell
jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 12:21:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

John Campbell wrote:
> Benjamin Lewis wrote:
> > Jakob Creutzig wrote:
>
> > > Tool shops can sell items which they don't buy back.
>
> > All shops can sell items they won't buy back.
>
> Tool shops' original stock can include containers that contain
> non-tools. They'll sell those non-tools, but won't buy them back.

Shopkeepers take ownership of items on monsters killed
inside their shop. I'm running chaotic wizards lately.
I watched my pet kill a watchman since I wasn't strong
enough to do so myself yet. The shopkeeper quoted
prices on the watchman's weapon and armor.

> Do mimics count as original stock?

The message for eating a corpse is something like "You
ate it you bought it". I have no idea if the monster is
original stock but monsters don't carry prices. Also
monsters can't be picked up while alive.
Anonymous
June 14, 2005 12:26:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:21:40 -0700, Doug Freyburger wrote:

> Shopkeepers take ownership of items on monsters killed inside their shop.

as well as any missile weapons used to kill said monster.

> I'm running chaotic wizards lately. I watched my pet kill a watchman
> since I wasn't strong enough to do so myself yet. The shopkeeper quoted
> prices on the watchman's weapon and armor.
>
>> Do mimics count as original stock?
>
> The message for eating a corpse is something like "You ate it you bought
> it". I have no idea if the monster is original stock but monsters don't
> carry prices. Also monsters can't be picked up while alive.

If you teleport a mimic out of the shop or polymorph it, the shopkeeper
doesn't care (unless there was something else underneath it), so I'd say
they're not stock.

--
"We are setting a standard for the rest of the world in the treatment
of people who may have loyalties to an enemy nation. We are protecting
ourselves without violating the principles of Christian decency."
Milton S. Eisenhower, "Japanese Relocation" (1943 propaganda film)