Knights and Speed

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Hi RGRN,

After ascending a Valk and a Wizard, I'm moving on to a Knight - they
seem like they have a lot of interesting possiblities. But I'm a little
unclear on how speed works for them and haven't found a definitive
answer in searching.

I know that they get "fast" Speed at XL 7, but I'm not clear on how
the mount plays into things. From what I understand, the mount needs a
speed of 24 to be "very fast". Two questions, then... 1) Does the
mount's speed supersede any other effects (namely Boots of Speed and/or
Haste Self)? 2) Will a wand of Speed Monster max out at "fast" (=15?),
or is it possible to boost a monster higher?

Finally, any favorite steeds out there? Dragons are easy to find, but
their speed seems like a liability. Can they even hit "fast" with
a wand blast or are they stuck at normal? Ki-rin look pretty excellent,
given their decent speed and non-eating diet, but they're hard to find
and hard to tame. Maybe a jabberwock? They should be able to hit fast
speed, can fly, and have some killer attacks to boot.

All advice is much appreciated.

--
Todd Pytel

 

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"Todd Pytel" <tppytel@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:20050617144130.6459ae88.tppytel@nospam.org...
> Hi RGRN,
>
> After ascending a Valk and a Wizard, I'm moving on to a Knight - they
> seem like they have a lot of interesting possiblities. But I'm a little
> unclear on how speed works for them and haven't found a definitive
> answer in searching.
>
> I know that they get "fast" Speed at XL 7, but I'm not clear on how
> the mount plays into things. From what I understand, the mount needs a
> speed of 24 to be "very fast". Two questions, then... 1) Does the
> mount's speed supersede any other effects (namely Boots of Speed and/or
> Haste Self)? 2) Will a wand of Speed Monster max out at "fast" (=15?),
> or is it possible to boost a monster higher?
>
> Finally, any favorite steeds out there? Dragons are easy to find, but
> their speed seems like a liability. Can they even hit "fast" with
> a wand blast or are they stuck at normal? Ki-rin look pretty excellent,
> given their decent speed and non-eating diet, but they're hard to find
> and hard to tame. Maybe a jabberwock? They should be able to hit fast
> speed, can fly, and have some killer attacks to boot.
I don't know the numbers, but Ki-Rin are the best steeds. They can die, and
i've lost one to a black dragon. (the saddle too!) Jabberwocks are decent
pets, but not sturdy enough for the planes... and they eat. Riding a steed
that eats is an issue, shapeshifter corpses must be avoided at all cost.

May the most holy RNG smile upon thine enterprise.
Danny

 

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Daniel Morris wrote:
> "Todd Pytel" <tppytel@nospam.org> wrote in message
> news:20050617144130.6459ae88.tppytel@nospam.org...
>
>>Hi RGRN,
>>
>>After ascending a Valk and a Wizard, I'm moving on to a Knight - they
>>seem like they have a lot of interesting possiblities. But I'm a little
>>unclear on how speed works for them and haven't found a definitive
>>answer in searching.
>>
>>I know that they get "fast" Speed at XL 7, but I'm not clear on how
>>the mount plays into things. From what I understand, the mount needs a
>>speed of 24 to be "very fast". Two questions, then... 1) Does the
>>mount's speed supersede any other effects (namely Boots of Speed and/or
>>Haste Self)? 2) Will a wand of Speed Monster max out at "fast" (=15?),
>>or is it possible to boost a monster higher?
>>
The mount's speed does replace your own; speed boots wouldn't help much
when you're not walking around. If the mount's speed is 24 (pretty much
just unicorns/warhorses) then you'll get 2 moves per turn, better than
Very Fast for a player. I believe Speed Monster will add 3 to the speed
of a creature, up to 18.

Monsters use a fixed speed, but players have a chance of getting extra
turns, so it does not quite line up. Very Fast is approxitametly 18, and
Fast is approximately 15. A speed of 12 is one move per turn.

>>Finally, any favorite steeds out there? Dragons are easy to find, but
>>their speed seems like a liability. Can they even hit "fast" with
>>a wand blast or are they stuck at normal? Ki-rin look pretty excellent,
>>given their decent speed and non-eating diet, but they're hard to find
>>and hard to tame. Maybe a jabberwock? They should be able to hit fast
>>speed, can fly, and have some killer attacks to boot.
>
> I don't know the numbers, but Ki-Rin are the best steeds. They can die, and
> i've lost one to a black dragon. (the saddle too!) Jabberwocks are decent
> pets, but not sturdy enough for the planes... and they eat. Riding a steed
> that eats is an issue, shapeshifter corpses must be avoided at all cost.
>
Eating can be a good thing too; your jabberwock won't go untame ever.
Jabberwocks are also easier to get than Ki-Rin.

Things to look for in a steed are speed, flying, eating, and toughness.
I believe eating is a good thing; it'll keep your pet tame, and you
don't really need the food. For speed, anything 15 and up is enough for
me; going with a 24 speed warhorse sacrifices too much. Flying is a huge
benefit of steeds but if you don't need it you have more options.
Several things are important for toughness: consider in particular
resistances. If you're fire resistant, it is nice to have a fire
resistant steed so you don't need to worry about fire traps killing it
from under you.

 

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> Finally, any favorite steeds out there? Dragons are easy to find, but
> their speed seems like a liability. Can they even hit "fast" with
> a wand blast or are they stuck at normal? Ki-rin look pretty excellent,
> given their decent speed and non-eating diet, but they're hard to find
> and hard to tame. Maybe a jabberwock? They should be able to hit fast
> speed, can fly, and have some killer attacks to boot.

I usually prefer Dragons, but their speed only matters for things like
attacks. I usually play Chaotic Wizards, and have a tendancy to tame
and ride Dragons whenever I can, and they often have very powerful
attacks, plus since they're meateaters, you can just have them eat
whatever corpses you want.

However, one problem (sort of) I've found with Dragons is that they
have a tendancy to become very attached to their owner if you treat
them right. This attachment can end up going through shopkeepers, too,
if you catch my drift. Is this true of -all- animals, or just more
aggressive ones?

Also, on the subject of zapping wands of haste monster...is using haste
monster permanent, or just a temporary boost of speed? It's probably
the latter, but I'm just curious.

 

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On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Magus Zeal wrote:

> > Finally, any favorite steeds out there? Dragons are easy to find, but
> > their speed seems like a liability. Can they even hit "fast" with
> > a wand blast or are they stuck at normal? Ki-rin look pretty excellent,
> > given their decent speed and non-eating diet, but they're hard to find
> > and hard to tame. Maybe a jabberwock? They should be able to hit fast
> > speed, can fly, and have some killer attacks to boot.
>
> I usually prefer Dragons, but their speed only matters for things like
> attacks. I usually play Chaotic Wizards, and have a tendancy to tame
> and ride Dragons whenever I can, and they often have very powerful
> attacks, plus since they're meateaters, you can just have them eat
> whatever corpses you want.
>
> However, one problem (sort of) I've found with Dragons is that they
> have a tendancy to become very attached to their owner if you treat
> them right. This attachment can end up going through shopkeepers, too,
> if you catch my drift. Is this true of -all- animals, or just more
> aggressive ones?

Pets will attack monsters up to 2 levels higher than they are themselves.
Since dragon are rather high level (15-20, iirc) and shopkeeper not so
high (~10 iirc), dragons will attack shopkeepers. But usual pets (dogs,
cats, horses) have level just low enough not to attack shopkeeper (I guees
a wraith-feed dog will). Any high-level pet will attack shopkeeper (I once
had a pet pit fiend ravaging through minetown).

In slash'em, shopkeeper have much higher level (23) and so are not
attacked by most pets.

> Also, on the subject of zapping wands of haste monster...is using haste
> monster permanent, or just a temporary boost of speed? It's probably
> the latter, but I'm just curious.

The wand make it permanent.

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

 

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Todd Pytel wrote:
> Thanks all for the helpful responses. Some of my thoughts along with
> some more questions...
>
> My starting horse got killed early on and I ended up going steedless up
> to Medusa, mainly out of laziness but also because I lacked a
> stethoscope, magic whistle, or healing spell. In retrospect, I think
> that was probably a bad idea - it seems to me that the early to mid-game
> is where the lance should really shine. I had held off using it because

Yes. However, I run some numbers and they are not that bad late game.
That extra jousting bonus does push it up to 'only a bit weaker than
good artifacts' status.

> I didn't want it to break on me (this depends somewhat on Luck from what
> I've read?), but that's really kind of pointless - by the time you hit
> Medusa, you should have a decent artifact weapon and maybe enough armor
> to twoweapon, and then you'd drop the lance anyway. I also didn't

Not necesarrily. Off-hand lance on two-weapon is kinda nifty. You can
play around with Greyswandir + Lance and see how you like it.

You might get annoyed with knocking monster off one square. Or you
might like doing that. I kinda like it. I'm in fact two-weaponing two
lances *laugh*

<snipping about steed selection>

I've been blowing my wishes on Blessed figurines of ki-rin. I think
it's silly use of wishes. But what the hell. I'm playing the knight
mainly to play around with the riding and steed...

>
> 1) If you levitate on a non-flying steed, will the steed levitate with
> you? It works fine on the flyers, which surprised me, but I haven't
> thought about non-flyers until just now.

I *think* you levitate off of your non-flying steed and you become
unmounted.

-K

 

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On 20 Jun 2005 09:17:16 -0700
"Kremti" <kremti@gmail.com> wrote:

> Not necesarrily. Off-hand lance on two-weapon is kinda nifty. You
> can play around with Greyswandir + Lance and see how you like it.

Interesting. I hadn't really run the numbers before. Let's make
sure I've got this right. Here's the relevant section from the Weapons
spoiler:

"2d10 for a successful joust (2d2 if with a secondary weapon). This
bonus can't be doubled. To joust successfully, you need to hit with a
lance in melee while riding (and not fumbling or stunned), and the
chance is dependent on your skill in lance (or, if two-weaponing, the
lower of your skill in two-weapon combat and in lance): 20% at
unskilled, 40% at basic, 60% at skilled, 80% at expert."

Now, if I'm understanding things correctly, that means you'll be doing
the 2d2 bonus (can't wield an artifact as secondary) 60% of the time
(based on Skilled two-weapon). On the average, that's 1.8 bonus
damage on top of the base lance's 3.5/4.5, so a total average of
5.3/6.3. A long sword is 4.5/6.5. So you take a small loss in LDAM for a
more significant gain in SDAM. Indeed, not bad by the numbers. And
the lance damage should be more consistent as well. Then there's the
question of stun, knockback, and possible breakage. The last is what I'm
most concerned about, because I'd hate to write a bunch of ?oEW's and
then break the frickin thing. But maybe that's really uncommon, and I
just had bad luck with an early knight or two. Do you feel it's
strategically worth it, or are you just doing it for the sake of being
knightly?

> I've been blowing my wishes on Blessed figurines of ki-rin. I think
> it's silly use of wishes. But what the hell. I'm playing the knight
> mainly to play around with the riding and steed...

Yeah, steeds seem like the whole purpose of the knight. Have you gotten
a pumped-up ki-rin into the Planes to gauge its effectiveness there? Or
have they been dying even before then? (And if so, how?)

> > 1) If you levitate on a non-flying steed, will the steed levitate
> > with you? It works fine on the flyers, which surprised me, but I
> > haven't thought about non-flyers until just now.
>
> I *think* you levitate off of your non-flying steed and you become
> unmounted.

See, that's what I was originally expecting with any steed. But I guess
it makes sense that the flying ones will rise up along with you.

--Todd

 

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Quoting Todd Pytel <tppytel@nospam.org>:
>I know that they get "fast" Speed at XL 7, but I'm not clear on how
>the mount plays into things. From what I understand, the mount needs a
>speed of 24 to be "very fast". Two questions, then... 1) Does the
>mount's speed supersede any other effects (namely Boots of Speed and/or
>Haste Self)? 2) Will a wand of Speed Monster max out at "fast" (=15?),
>or is it possible to boost a monster higher?

The mount's speed is all that counts.

[Mount speeds would be less significant if NH decoupled movement and
action speeds, which would also have mitigated the problems with air
elementals, mumakil, Jubilex...]

A wand of speed monster boosts a mount's speed once irrespective of it's
starting value. Bring it along if you plan to ride through Orcus, where
the shades will slow your mount. Also bring wands of undead turning to
resurrect slain steeds.

>Finally, any favorite steeds out there? Dragons are easy to find, but
>their speed seems like a liability.

I rode dragons for most of my 2004 Tournament K ascension. Early on they
are an asset; the player does not have speed boots anyway, and the
dragon's impressive attacks and thick meatshield (some attacks are on the
mount) more than compensate for the loss of speed. I stuck it out until
the Sanctum, but realistically it had become a liability by Gehennom.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Teleute, Presuary.

 

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Quoting Daniel Morris <puterdan@optonline.net>:
>I don't know the numbers, but Ki-Rin are the best steeds. They can die, and
>i've lost one to a black dragon. (the saddle too!) Jabberwocks are decent
>pets, but not sturdy enough for the planes... and they eat. Riding a steed
>that eats is an issue, shapeshifter corpses must be avoided at all cost.

Another downside to a meat-eating pet is that it tends to hoover up every
corpse you find, needing some neat dismounting tricks to both get good
intrinsics and to eat large corpses to keep hunger away.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Teleute, Presuary.

 

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On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:24:08 -0500
Todd Pytel <tppytel@nospam.org> wrote:

> 2) Are Ki-rin "intelligent"? That is, would they wear an "oR or drink
> !oGL if I provided them to it?

Well, having just had the extreme good fortune of finding my first ever
non-Castle /oW (0:3 no less!), I can answer the above question in the
positive - my shiny new Ki-rin Nobunaga picked up the "oR I left for
him, and I assume that he'll do the same with !oGL. I also didn't
realize that Ki-rin will automatically haste, invisible, and heal
themselves for you. This is looking pretty outstanding - it's time for
something terrible to happen. And with h, L, ;, and purple worms already
genocided, it will most likely be my fault.

--Todd

 

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Well, you wouldn't think that a blessed rustproof +6 lance would be a
POS, but sure enough it snapped on me in the room before Rodney. I
think I got maybe 15000 turns out of it. Bah...

Lesson #1: Don't waste valuable resources enchanting a lance.

Lesson #2: Always carry a backup weapon. (I had been twoweaponing, so I
still had Grayswandir, but I went back to the base to get a sword to be
safe.)

Lesson #3: Cursed ?oTele are plentiful and lightweight. Take more than
you expect to need so that you don't have to hike back 25 levels on foot
when your lance breaks.

The Ki-rin, on the other hand, is magnificent. I'd sing its praises some
more, but I think that would tempt the RNG too much. Maybe later...

--Todd

 

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Todd Pytel wrote:
> Well, you wouldn't think that a blessed rustproof +6 lance would be a
> POS, but sure enough it snapped on me in the room before Rodney. I
> think I got maybe 15000 turns out of it. Bah...

Hm, is your luck maxed out? IIRC, the chance of breakage depends on
your luck, and I've been two weaponing two-lances for last...long time
and haven't broke either of them yet. (enchanted up to +6 and +3, and
probably up to +6-7 as soon as I get around to it )

<snip>

> The Ki-rin, on the other hand, is magnificent. I'd sing its praises some
> more, but I think that would tempt the RNG too much. Maybe later...

I didn't know they use the "oR. That'll help a lot against beam/ray
attacks. Since ki-rin doesn't have any resistance whatsoever,
death/disintegrate rays are a real problem...

-K