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how bad is the Tungsten T5 really?

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Anonymous
February 22, 2005 7:08:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Hi!

I recently came across some reviews
(http://www.palmblvd.com/articles/2004/10/2004-10-13-Rev...)
almost all of which were very critical about the Tungsten T5.
As I have to replace my broken Palm and was thinking about getting a
T5 I would be interested in finding out if that is really an accurate
picture of the T5.

So: How good or bad is it really?

Many thanks!

More about : bad tungsten

Anonymous
February 23, 2005 1:38:03 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Markus" <MHasenoehrl@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:D 3091c17.0502221608.3c680d56@posting.google.com...
> Hi!
>
> I recently came across some reviews
> (http://www.palmblvd.com/articles/2004/10/2004-10-13-Rev...)
> almost all of which were very critical about the Tungsten T5.
> As I have to replace my broken Palm and was thinking about getting a
> T5 I would be interested in finding out if that is really an accurate
> picture of the T5.
>
> So: How good or bad is it really?
>
> Many thanks!

Someone pointed out one time that people who are upset are the ones most
likely to write any kind of review at all. At least, in popular posting
areas. As for good or bad, I feel that it depends on what the user's
expectations are.
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 5:27:12 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Disturbing Element <scurvy@elephant.com> wrote:
>
> Someone pointed out one time that people who are upset are the ones
> most likely to write any kind of review at all. At least, in popular
> posting areas.

If that was true, you'd generally see a lot more negative reviews than
positive ones, but that's not the case. I find more positive reviews than
negative ones, and at least a dozen "kick ass" or "editor's choice" for
every slaughter. When there's a scale from 1-10, the average seems to be
around 7.5, and not 5.5 as would be natural.
Also, when something is really expensive, people tend to want to justify
their purchase, and not be seen as a fool for wasting good money. That
means they're likely to write more favourably about it than an independent
reviewer who have a device on loan.

So I claim that the opposite of what "someone" said is true -- if you find a
product for which there are more bad reviews than good ones, it must be a
real stinker.

> As for good or bad, I feel that it depends on what the
> user's expectations are.

There's a few common expectations, like reliability and value for money.
From what I can tell, the T5 doesn't score above average for either.
I'm sure there's plenty of people who love their T5, but it doesn't appear
to have become a success.

Now that Sony has jumped ship completely too (no more Clies even in Japan),
I can't see how PalmSource will survive for long, unless PalmOne can get
their act together and produce a new killer device, with high quality,
classy design, and features that people really want (like WiFi). The Palm
companies need another success like the V/Vx -- badly. The T5 ain't it,
even if it has some good features that users like.

--
*Art
Related resources
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 9:26:11 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On 22 Feb 2005 16:08:22 -0800, MHasenoehrl@gmx.net (Markus) spewed forth these
words of wisdom:

>Hi!
>
>I recently came across some reviews
>(http://www.palmblvd.com/articles/2004/10/2004-10-13-Rev...)
>almost all of which were very critical about the Tungsten T5.
>As I have to replace my broken Palm and was thinking about getting a
>T5 I would be interested in finding out if that is really an accurate
>picture of the T5.
>
>So: How good or bad is it really?
>
>Many thanks!

I love mine, although I wish it had an LED for alarms, and a front-mounted
speaker.

--
"I'm not a cool person in real life, but I play one on the Internet"
Galley
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 1:05:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Hi Markus,

> So: How good or bad is it really?
Read the thorough review
"Saturday, February 19, 2005
PalmOne Tungsten T5 Review "
at http://www.writingonyourpalm.net/

The author discusses the pros and cons.

--
Regards
HaPe
We are rich only through what we give,
and poor only through what we refuse.
Anne Swetchine (1782-1857)
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 5:31:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In article news:<d3091c17.0502221608.3c680d56@posting.google.com>, Markus wrote:
> I recently came across some reviews
> (http://www.palmblvd.com/articles/2004/10/2004-10-13-Rev...)
> almost all of which were very critical about the Tungsten T5.

It's easy to criticize ...

I think the real answer is that it's not so much that the T5 is bad -- it seems to
me to be a great improvement over earlier Tungstens -- as that people had been
hoping for something more.

People were expecting PalmOS 6, but the T5 has 5.4.something; people were expecting
a unit with built-in WiFi, but
the T5 does not have it; people were expecting that the T5 would come with a
cradle, but it comes with only a cable; people were expecting that the T5 would
have the slider and the voice recorder and the universal connector of earlier
Tungstens, but it doesn't.

The only one of those things that I would miss is the UC (and that only because I
have a couple of UC cradles and a sync/charge cable for my current Tungsten -- I
could live with the new cable, though) -- and I'll be glad to see the end of the
slider. PalmOS 6 might have been nice, but I'll pass judgement on that when I see
it -- it depends how good the compatibility with PalmOS 3/4/5 databses and apps is.

There has been some discussion of the fact that databases typically occupy more
memory on the T5 than on earlier Tungstens, because on the T5 all records are
aligned on 512-byte boundaries -- so large databases with many small records may
occupy much more space than before. That may be a show-stopper for people who use
databases of that nature, but the T5 has more memory than any other Palm and can
afford a little bloat in the name of efficiency.

Some people were also hoping that the T5 would have proper Graffiti -- or at least
allow Graffiti 2 to use the original Graffiti glyphs -- now that the Xerox lawsuit
has been thrown out. Unfortunately it does not.

> As I have to replace my broken Palm and was thinking about getting a
> T5 I would be interested in finding out if that is really an accurate
> picture of the T5.

If my T1 broke today I'd get a T5. No question.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Anonymous
February 23, 2005 10:04:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Markus wrote:

> I recently came across some reviews
> (http://www.palmblvd.com/articles/2004/10/2004-10-13-Rev...)
> almost all of which were very critical about the Tungsten T5.

I can give you a software developer's perspective:

* I have had to create a work-around for a T5-only bug.
* I have heard of a couple more T5-only bugs.
* Because all permanently-stored data is on flash, there can
be dramatic space wastage in very specific cases, and
access can be slow. However, you can run the batteries
bone dry and leave it sitting there for a month afterwards
and still not lose your data, which is nice.
* Many (even most) Palm devices have a bug that affects
ARM-optimized applications and cause intermittent crashes.
However, the T5 does not appear to have this bug.

If palmOne issues a software update to fix the bugs with it
and can find a way to improve the performance of the DBCache
(the system that makes it possible to store all your data in
flash instead of in RAM like on other Palms), then it could
be a pretty decent device. In fact, palmOne may already be
working on this or may have even already issued an update,
but I haven't kept track.

- Logan
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 9:12:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Arthur Hagen" <art@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:cvhb8g$4rl$1@cauldron.broomstick.com...
> Disturbing Element <scurvy@elephant.com> wrote:
>>
>> Someone pointed out one time that people who are upset are the ones
>> most likely to write any kind of review at all. At least, in popular
>> posting areas.
>
> If that was true, you'd generally see a lot more negative reviews than
> positive ones, but that's not the case.

I've seen reviews that are mostly negative for products.

> I find more positive reviews than
> negative ones, and at least a dozen "kick ass" or "editor's choice" for
> every slaughter. When there's a scale from 1-10, the average seems to be
> around 7.5, and not 5.5 as would be natural.

"Editor's choice" indicates a forum different that what I was indicating. If
there is a structure and a sort of point system, along with reviewers trying
to be objective, then yes, you're more likely to find something that's not
emotionally biased.

> Also, when something is really expensive, people tend to want to justify
> their purchase, and not be seen as a fool for wasting good money. That
> means they're likely to write more favourably about it than an independent
> reviewer who have a device on loan.
>
> So I claim that the opposite of what "someone" said is true -- if you find
> a
> product for which there are more bad reviews than good ones, it must be a
> real stinker.
>
>> As for good or bad, I feel that it depends on what the
>> user's expectations are.
>
> There's a few common expectations, like reliability and value for money.
> From what I can tell, the T5 doesn't score above average for either.
> I'm sure there's plenty of people who love their T5, but it doesn't appear
> to have become a success.

And some people get upset because they have demands beyond those and those
demands are not met. "Hey, my Whatzit Q7 won't open the garage door and walk
the dog. I give it a one out of ten."

>
> Now that Sony has jumped ship completely too (no more Clies even in
> Japan),
> I can't see how PalmSource will survive for long, unless PalmOne can get
> their act together and produce a new killer device, with high quality,
> classy design, and features that people really want (like WiFi). The Palm
> companies need another success like the V/Vx -- badly. The T5 ain't it,
> even if it has some good features that users like.

Any chance the upper levels of Palm check out forums and usenet? They seem
out of touch with the public, and do indeed need to make, as you say, a new
killer device.

>
> --
> *Art
>
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 12:14:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Disturbing Element <scurvy@elephant.com> wrote:
> "Arthur Hagen" <art@broomstick.com> wrote in message
> news:cvhb8g$4rl$1@cauldron.broomstick.com...
>> Disturbing Element <scurvy@elephant.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Someone pointed out one time that people who are upset are the ones
>>> most likely to write any kind of review at all. At least, in popular
>>> posting areas.
>>
>> If that was true, you'd generally see a lot more negative reviews
>> than positive ones, but that's not the case.
>
> I've seen reviews that are mostly negative for products.

I think you missed my word "generally", meaning that if you *don't* look at
a specific product, but reviews as a whole, reviews tend to be positive more
often than negative.

If a product receives even 50/50 positive/negative reviews, that puts it on
the lower end of that scale.

>> Now that Sony has jumped ship completely too (no more Clies even in
>> Japan),
>> I can't see how PalmSource will survive for long, unless PalmOne can
>> get their act together and produce a new killer device, with high
>> quality, classy design, and features that people really want (like
>> WiFi). The Palm companies need another success like the V/Vx --
>> badly. The T5 ain't it, even if it has some good features that
>> users like.
>
> Any chance the upper levels of Palm check out forums and usenet?

Hah. You're funny. Pinstripe suits reading Usenet?

> They seem out of touch with the public, and do indeed need to make,
> as you say, a new killer device.

They'll survive for a while on the popularity of the Treo 600/650, but that
won't last forever. They're already behind the competition, and have lost
so much market share over the last few years that someone's head *should*
roll. Instead, I suppose they'll get bonuses for their cost cutting
measures...

Regards,
--
*Art
Anonymous
February 24, 2005 12:22:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Marek Staněk <marekdotstanek@dont.bother.to.spam> wrote:
> Arthur Hagen napsal(a):
>> Disturbing Element <scurvy@elephant.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Someone pointed out one time that people who are upset are the ones
>>> most likely to write any kind of review at all. At least, in popular
>>> posting areas.
>
>> If that was true, you'd generally see a lot more negative reviews
>> than positive ones, but that's not the case. I find more positive
>> reviews than negative ones, and at least a dozen "kick ass" or
>> "editor's choice" for every slaughter. When there's a scale from
>> 1-10, the average seems to be around 7.5, and not 5.5 as would be
>> natural.
>
> I'm afraid you miss one important point. The negative reviews are
> written by people, who paid the purchase with THEIR OWN money and
> ended
> up dissatisfied.

Indeed, and that was *not* missed. My observations were meant to lead
people to the conclusion that when lots of people who have bought their
device, and thus would be more inclined to write favourable interviews,
would still bash the device, it has to be a truly awful device.

> For me, free Cobalt upgrade for T3/T5 and completely redesigned PIM
> apps would be enough at the moment.
> But if they want to hold this line of approach, and it looks they
> insist
> on it, in several years they'll vanish. And having said the above,
> IMHO such suppliers surely should.

In this, I believe Sony isn't just a bellwether, but a rat leaving a sinking
ship. It may be too late for Palm, but hopefully not too late for PDAs. I
see innovation from unexpected directions, and believe there's still room
for true user-friendly PDAs. (PocketPC ain't it, and they can't fill that
part of the market unless they redesign the OS from scratch.)

Regards,
--
*Art
Anonymous
February 25, 2005 9:26:32 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Arthur Hagen" <art@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:cvknh0$db0$1@cauldron.broomstick.com...
> Disturbing Element <scurvy@elephant.com> wrote:
>> "Arthur Hagen" <art@broomstick.com> wrote in message
>> news:cvhb8g$4rl$1@cauldron.broomstick.com...
>>> Disturbing Element <scurvy@elephant.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Someone pointed out one time that people who are upset are the ones
>>>> most likely to write any kind of review at all. At least, in popular
>>>> posting areas.
>>>
>>> If that was true, you'd generally see a lot more negative reviews
>>> than positive ones, but that's not the case.
>>
>> I've seen reviews that are mostly negative for products.
>
> I think you missed my word "generally", meaning that if you *don't* look
> at
> a specific product, but reviews as a whole, reviews tend to be positive
> more
> often than negative.
>
> If a product receives even 50/50 positive/negative reviews, that puts it
> on
> the lower end of that scale.
>
>>> Now that Sony has jumped ship completely too (no more Clies even in
>>> Japan),
>>> I can't see how PalmSource will survive for long, unless PalmOne can
>>> get their act together and produce a new killer device, with high
>>> quality, classy design, and features that people really want (like
>>> WiFi). The Palm companies need another success like the V/Vx --
>>> badly. The T5 ain't it, even if it has some good features that
>>> users like.
>>
>> Any chance the upper levels of Palm check out forums and usenet?
>
> Hah. You're funny. Pinstripe suits reading Usenet?

It happens. We've had responses in...never mind, getting too far OT.

>
>> They seem out of touch with the public, and do indeed need to make,
>> as you say, a new killer device.
>
> They'll survive for a while on the popularity of the Treo 600/650, but
> that
> won't last forever. They're already behind the competition, and have lost
> so much market share over the last few years that someone's head *should*
> roll. Instead, I suppose they'll get bonuses for their cost cutting
> measures...

<snicker>
I'm resisting the urge to go OT again about my own company's misplaced
ideals...

>
> Regards,
> --
> *Art
>
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 5:35:02 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org aszonygya:
:In short: I think the T5 is a good device if you judge it against the
:manufacturer's claims, but that the manufacturers misjudged the
:market badly if they thought people were going to hail it as in any
:way new and exciting.

Well, there is at least one great thing about the T5. Namely, the slider is
history. Now, if the T5 had WiFi and a thumbboard a la the TC, then I'd be a
T5 user. Since it doesn't, I stick to my TC. /PaulN
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 3:40:05 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On 26 Feb 2005 02:35:02 GMT, Paul Nevai wrote:

> Well, there is at least one great thing about the T5. Namely, the slider is
> history. Now, if the T5 had WiFi and a thumbboard a la the TC, then I'd be a
> T5 user. Since it doesn't, I stick to my TC. /PaulN

If the T5 had all of the features of the T3 with the exception of the
slider, even without the non-volatile memory.

--
Derek

"What an absurd thing it is to pass over all the valuable parts of a
man, and fix our attention on his infirmities." -- Joseph Addison
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 5:27:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:40:05 -0600, Derek wrote:

> On 26 Feb 2005 02:35:02 GMT, Paul Nevai wrote:
>
>> Well, there is at least one great thing about the T5. Namely, the slider is
>> history. Now, if the T5 had WiFi and a thumbboard a la the TC, then I'd be a
>> T5 user. Since it doesn't, I stick to my TC. /PaulN
>
> If the T5 had all of the features of the T3 with the exception of the
> slider, even without the non-volatile memory.

Sorry. I edited what I was writing and just realized that I failed to
express a complete thought.

If the T5 had all of the features of the T3 with the exception of the
slider, even without the volatile memory, then I'd be a T5 user today.

--
Derek

"Tolstoy? Tolstoy not cookie. Tollhouse - dat cookie." -- Cookie
Monster
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 6:19:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:27:25 -0600, Derek wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:40:05 -0600, Derek wrote:

[snip]

>> If the T5 had all of the features of the T3 with the exception of the
>> slider, even without the non-volatile memory.
>
> Sorry. I edited what I was writing and just realized that I failed to
> express a complete thought.
>
> If the T5 had all of the features of the T3 with the exception of the
> slider, even without the volatile memory, then I'd be a T5 user today.

Oh, bother. This is embarrassing. That's supposed to be "without the
NON-volatile memory."

--
Derek

"Love truth, and pardon error." -- Voltaire
Anonymous
February 26, 2005 7:03:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In article news:<cvon8m$def$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
Paul Nevai wrote:
> Well, there is at least one great thing about the T5. Namely,
> the slider is history.

Amen to that!

... though some people liked the slider.


> Now, if the T5 had WiFi and a thumbboard a la the TC, then I'd
> be a T5 user.

Well, it has the ability to use a WiFi SD card ... and enough
internal memory that you're not going to need the slot for a flash
card all the time. I don't think there's room for a thumb-board
and a 320x480 display, though ... and I don't even want to *think*
about a virtual thumb-board!

Cheers,
Daniel.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 6:43:15 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Derek napsal(a):
> On 26 Feb 2005 02:35:02 GMT, Paul Nevai wrote:
>
>
>>Well, there is at least one great thing about the T5. Namely, the slider is
>>history. Now, if the T5 had WiFi and a thumbboard a la the TC, then I'd be a
>>T5 user. Since it doesn't, I stick to my TC. /PaulN
>
>
> If the T5 had all of the features of the T3 with the exception of the
> slider, even without the non-volatile memory.

Well, you can always insert a piece of plastic inside the T3 to keep the
slider open :-) But it won't replace the battery for a bigger one :-(
Mark
--
The last easy day was yesterday.
Anonymous
February 27, 2005 8:10:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:43:15 +0100, Marek Stanìk wrote:

> Derek napsal(a):
>> On 26 Feb 2005 02:35:02 GMT, Paul Nevai wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Well, there is at least one great thing about the T5. Namely, the slider is
>>>history. Now, if the T5 had WiFi and a thumbboard a la the TC, then I'd be a
>>>T5 user. Since it doesn't, I stick to my TC. /PaulN
>>
>>
>> If the T5 had all of the features of the T3 with the exception of the
>> slider, even without the non-volatile memory.
>
> Well, you can always insert a piece of plastic inside the T3 to keep the
> slider open :-) But it won't replace the battery for a bigger one :-(
> Mark

Very true. I'd thought about inserting a piece of plastic. But then,
not a single case on the market would fit the "expanded T5."

Battery life is a-whole-nother issue.

--
Derek

Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.
!