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What would you wish for?

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Anonymous
June 23, 2005 1:59:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Same character as my previous "What to do with a wand of polymorph?"
post, only now, I have completed the quest and found a wand of wishing
with one charge in the last quest level. I used the wish, recharged it,
and now I have two wishes left. I can't decide whether to wish for an
amulet of reflection (how important is reflection anyway?), wish for
magic markers to write scrolls of enchant armor, or just save the wishes
in case I do something stupid later on and dust a piece of my armor, for
instance. Here is all the relevant info:

CydeWeys, Human Female Valkyrie
St:18/96 Dx:18 Co:18 In:16 Wi:22 Ch:11 Neutral S:910833
Dlvl:5 $:0 HP:186(186) Pw:51(79) AC:-21 Xp:18/1302644 T:56889 Satiated

So far I have genocided h;Lc

Main inventory:

Amulets
p - a blessed amulet of ESP (being worn)
Weapons
l - a +1 elven broadsword (wielded in other hand)
C - the blessed rustproof +7 Mjollnir (weapon in hand)
J - a blessed -3 orcish dagger named Teh Dullness
W - 4 +0 elven daggers (in quiver)
Armor
k - a blessed rustproof +4 helm of brilliance (being worn)
q - a blessed fireproof +5 pair of speed boots (being worn)
y - a blessed +4 gray dragon scale mail (being worn)
z - a blessed rustproof +5 pair of gauntlets of power
M - a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of protection (being worn)
Z - a blessed +1 T-shirt (being worn)
Comestibles
H - 2 uncursed lizard corpses
Rings
c - an uncursed ring of searching (on left hand)
g - an uncursed ring of regeneration (on right hand)
w - an uncursed ring of invisibility
Wands
m - a wand of polymorph (0:2)
u - a wand of polymorph (0:3)
K - a wand of wishing (1:1)
Tools
e - the Bell of Opening (0:3)
i - an uncursed towel
n - an uncursed pair of lenses (being worn)
v - a blessed +0 unicorn horn
x - an uncursed bag of holding
A - a blessed bag of holding
G - a blessed bag of holding
Gems
a - a blessed luckstone
E - 2 uncursed topaz stones

What do I do with three bags of holding, anyway?
Contents of the first Bag of Holding (other two are empty):

Coins
a - 21179 gold pieces
Weapons
b - a blessed +0 elven dagger
c - 8 +0 elven daggers
d - the +5 Frost Brand
Armor
e - a blessed +0 cloak of displacement
f - a blessed fireproof +4 pair of gauntlets of dexterity
g - a blessed +2 cloak of invisibility
h - an uncursed +0 oilskin cloak
i - an uncursed +0 pair of levitation boots
Comestibles
j - a C-ration
k - an uncursed lembas wafer
l - an uncursed cram ration
m - 2 uncursed K-rations
n - 13 uncursed food rations
o - 5 uncursed C-rations
p - 2 uncursed tripe rations
q - an uncursed orange
a - 4 uncursed carrots
Scrolls
b - an uncursed scroll of enchant armor
c - a scroll of blank paper
d - 5 uncursed scrolls of blank paper
e - a blessed scroll of magic mapping
f - an uncursed scroll of gold detection
g - a cursed scroll of identify
h - a blessed scroll of gold detection
i - 2 uncursed scrolls of scare monster
j - 2 uncursed scrolls of magic mapping
k - 5 uncursed scrolls of remove curse
Spellbooks
l - a cursed spellbook of charm monster
Potions
m - an uncursed potion of polymorph
n - a potion of holy water
o - an uncursed potion of gain ability
p - an uncursed potion of gain energy
q - a blessed potion of levitation
r - an uncursed potion of paralysis
s - an uncursed potion of blindness
t - a cursed potion of paralysis
a - 6 uncursed potions of water
Rings
b - a cursed -1 ring of adornment
c - an uncursed ring of levitation
d - an uncursed ring of teleport control
e - an uncursed ring of polymorph
f - an uncursed ring of polymorph control
g - an uncursed ring of conflict
Wands
h - a wand of undead turning (0:5)
i - a wand of teleportation (0:6)
j - a wand of probing (1:5)
k - an uncursed wand of teleportation
l - a wand of striking (0:2)
m - a blessed wand of undead turning (0:1)
n - a wand of magic missile (0:3)
o - a wand of fire (0:3)
p - a wand of cold (0:2)
Tools
q - a blessed magic marker (1:1)
r - a +0 pick-axe
s - an uncursed whistle called magic
t - a blessed glass orb named The Orb of Fate
a - a blessed magic marker (1:5)
b - an uncursed oilskin sack
Gems
c - a blessed touchstone
d - 11 uncursed jasper stones
e - 5 uncursed black opals
f - 7 uncursed citrine stones
g - 8 uncursed obsidian stones
h - 7 uncursed chrysoberyl stones
i - 14 uncursed jacinth stones
j - 4 uncursed dilithium crystals
k - 7 uncursed sapphires
l - a cursed dilithium crystal
m - 10 uncursed topaz stones
n - 4 uncursed fluorite stones
o - 7 uncursed garnet stones
p - 6 uncursed agate stones
q - 7 uncursed emeralds
r - 5 uncursed amethyst stones
s - 2 uncursed rubies
t - 9 uncursed amber stones
u - 4 uncursed aquamarine stones
v - 8 uncursed jade stones
a - 20 uncursed opals
b - 3 uncursed diamonds
c - 13 uncursed turquoise stones
d - 5 uncursed jet stones

Contents of stash:

Weapons
a - an uncursed elven broadsword named Orcrist
b - a blessed rustproof long sword named Vorpal Blade
c - a blessed athame named Magicbane
d - an uncursed silver saber named Werebane
e - an uncursed broadsword named Dragonbane
f - an uncursed war hammer named Ogresmasher
Spellbooks
g - an uncursed spellbook of haste self
h - an uncursed spellbook of haste self
i - a spellbook of identify
j - an uncursed spellbook of force bolt
k - a blessed spellbook of blank paper
l - an uncursed spellbook of cure sickness
m - a blessed spellbook of protection
n - an uncursed spellbook of cause fear
o - a blessed spellbook of sleep

There are many spellbooks spread across many levels before I got
rigorous about my stash. Why did my God give me so many artifact
weapons, anyway?! I have Mjollnir, Frost Brand, Orcrist, Vorpal Blade,
Magicbane, Werebane, Dragonbane, and Ogresmasher. Right now I'm using
Mjollnir but I'll switch if for some reason another weapon is better.

While I went to visit my stash a troll with a lightning wand dusted one
of my two wands of polymorph. Damn. Can I put them in my bag of
holding? I know you can't put other bags of holding or wands of
cancellation into a bag of holding, but I didn't want to risk it with
the wand of polymorph (sounds like it might polymorph the bag or
something, hehehe).

Spells I know:

Name Level Category Fail
a - detect unseen 3* divination 65%
b - haste self 3* escape 65%
c - fireball 4* attack 30%
d - detect monsters 1* divination 30%
e - restore ability 4* healing 76%
f - clairvoyance 3* divination 65%
g - healing 1 healing 12%
h - invisibility 4 escape 83%
i - levitation 4 escape 83%
j - magic missile 2 attack 30%
k - remove curse 3 clerical 54%
l - cone of cold 4 attack 0%
m - cure blindness 2 healing 12%
n - polymorph 6 matter 100%
o - knock 1 matter 30%
p - drain life 2 attack 30%
q - teleport away 6 escape 100%
r - light 1 divination 30%
s - slow monster 2 enchantment 30%
t - force bolt 1 attack 30%
u - detect treasure 4 divination 83%
v - detect food 2 divination 30%
w - create monster 2 clerical 30%
x - jumping 1 escape 30%
y - sleep 1 enchantment 30%
z - cause fear 3 enchantment 65%
A - identify 3 divination 65%
B - protection 1 clerical 30%
C - cure sickness 3 healing 54%

Output of Wand of Probing on .

Status of CydeWeys (piously neutral): Level 18 HP 186(186) AC -21,
very fast.

I don't seem to have any enlightenment potions around or else I'd tell
you about my intrinsics. I have all of the usual ones
(fire/poison/sleep/cold/etc.), but not, to my knowledge, disintegration.

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris

More about : question

Anonymous
June 23, 2005 1:59:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> I can't decide whether to wish for an amulet of reflection (how
> important is reflection anyway?),

You answered your own question much later in your post:

> While I went to visit my stash a troll with a lightning wand dusted one
> of my two wands of polymorph. Damn.

If you had been wearing an amulet of reflection, this result would not
have happened.

> Can I put them in my bag of holding? I know you can't put other bags
> of holding or wands of cancellation into a bag of holding, but I
> didn't want to risk it with the wand of polymorph (sounds like it
> might polymorph the bag or something, hehehe).

Wands of polymorph do not interact with containers. You can safely put
any wand other than a charged wand of cancellation directly into a bag
of holding.

-Ken
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 1:59:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Cyde Weys wrote:


>
> Amulets
> p - a blessed amulet of ESP (being worn)

I'd ditch this for an amulet of reflection or "oLS, myself. Leaning for
reflection.

> Weapons
> J - a blessed -3 orcish dagger named Teh Dullness

Haha, awesome name for a pudding farming weapon.

> Armor
> k - a blessed rustproof +4 helm of brilliance (being worn)
> q - a blessed fireproof +5 pair of speed boots (being worn)
> y - a blessed +4 gray dragon scale mail (being worn)
> z - a blessed rustproof +5 pair of gauntlets of power
> M - a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of protection (being worn)
> Z - a blessed +1 T-shirt (being worn)

I like your ascension kit. Definitely need an "oR for this set up. I'd
use the wishes for a blessed "oR and a magic marker. Misc comments below.
:) 


> What do I do with three bags of holding, anyway?

I'm not sure, but I can tell you what *not* to do...

> Contents of the first Bag of Holding (other two are empty):
>
> Coins
> a - 21179 gold pieces

Unless you're saving up for protection from a priest or going for a high
score, I'd ditch this, or store it in a box at least. You can always come
back for it.

> Scrolls
> b - an uncursed scroll of enchant armor
> c - a scroll of blank paper
> d - 5 uncursed scrolls of blank paper

Definitely need a magic marker for this Valk. You could blessed enchant
your armor up a bit, geno anything you find particularly annoying that you
haven't gotten to yet.

> Potions
> n - a potion of holy water
> a - 6 uncursed potions of water

Hmm. :) 

> q - a blessed magic marker (1:1)

Wow, that's got to be irritating.

> s - an uncursed whistle called magic

These don't self identify?

>
> There are many spellbooks spread across many levels before I got
> rigorous about my stash. Why did my God give me so many artifact
> weapons, anyway?! I have Mjollnir, Frost Brand, Orcrist, Vorpal Blade,
> Magicbane, Werebane, Dragonbane, and Ogresmasher. Right now I'm using
> Mjollnir but I'll switch if for some reason another weapon is better.

Pudding farming. I had more than I thought you could get. All I wanted was
a freaking magic marker, too, or wand of polymorph, or some way to make
useless junk useful.

>
> While I went to visit my stash a troll with a lightning wand dusted one
> of my two wands of polymorph. Damn. Can I put them in my bag of
> holding?

Yes. There are only three items you can't. You named two. The other is a
ont bs gevpxf

> I don't seem to have any enlightenment potions around or else I'd tell
> you about my intrinsics. I have all of the usual ones
> (fire/poison/sleep/cold/etc.), but not, to my knowledge, disintegration.

I wouldn't burn a wish on disintegration. Just get your AC down, get
reflection, and you should be okay. You could always just genocide
black dragons. If you do encounter one, get up close so it won't breath
you, kill it, tin it if possible, and eat it.
Related resources
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 1:59:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, james wrote:

> I have a somewhat
> spoily, exploity technique for getting divine protection on the
> fasttrack, but I won't tell unless you ask.
>

Heck man, tell me. Rot13 if you want to protect innocent eyes. I spent
forever trying to get protection and got like two points off (no priests,
so it was sacfest and pray, sacfest and pray).
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 1:59:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Jym wrote:

>
> Reflection will protect you from blask dragon's breath.
>

Is this an always thing, or is there a chance it'll get through 1/XX of
the time?
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 1:59:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Adam Lawson wrote:

>> Reflection will protect you from blask dragon's breath.
>
> Is this an always thing, or is there a chance it'll get through 1/XX of
> the time?

Always. I believe it won't protect you from the wide angle disintegration
beams that can be fired at you if you really piss of a god, though.

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening
June 23, 2005 2:18:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <Xns967DB705534862galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11>,
Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu> wrote:

>and now I have two wishes left. I can't decide whether to wish for an
>amulet of reflection (how important is reflection anyway?), wish for

It's important enough to be on the short list of things that most
players consider absolutely essential to complete the game. It's one of
those things that you can do without, but doing so means embarking on a
seriously risky special challenge game.

However, there are several potential sources of reflection, (not many,
but more than there are for magic resistance), so MR generally wins the
toss if you're choosing what to wish for.

I exclusively play a class that has an artifact that confers reflection,
but even so, it's really only a backup plan.

Given a choice, I'd rather have SDSM and a COMR, than an amulet.


>magic markers to write scrolls of enchant armor, or just save the wishes
>in case I do something stupid later on and dust a piece of my armor, for
>instance. Here is all the relevant info:

Your armor is pretty good now. Since you have GDSM, yeah, if I were
you, I'd be tempted to wish for that amulet myself. As for armor class,
I'd be going for protection through sacrifice. I have a somewhat
spoily, exploity technique for getting divine protection on the
fasttrack, but I won't tell unless you ask.
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 4:24:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Cyde Weys wrote:

> Same character as my previous "What to do with a wand of polymorph?"
> post, only now, I have completed the quest and found a wand of wishing
> with one charge in the last quest level. I used the wish, recharged it,
> and now I have two wishes left. I can't decide whether to wish for an
> amulet of reflection (how important is reflection anyway?), wish for
> magic markers to write scrolls of enchant armor, or just save the wishes
> in case I do something stupid later on and dust a piece of my armor, for
> instance. Here is all the relevant info:

You will *really* enjoy reflection. Reflection can theoretically be
forgottent, but it's one of the best thing you can have (together with
MR).

You may alos want to swap the GDSM/AoR combo for a SDSM/cloak of MR in
order to free the amulet slot for AoLS. Since youhave two wishes + the
castle wand, this is completely doable.
Your armor seems good enough, but top-enchanting it before going into
Gehennom (that is wish for markers with the Castle wand) is a very good
idea.

Of course, you'll probably want to blessed geno L and h before going in
hell (or even the Castle, or even Medusa in case of Titan).

> There are many spellbooks spread across many levels before I got
> rigorous about my stash. Why did my God give me so many artifact
> weapons, anyway?! I have Mjollnir, Frost Brand, Orcrist, Vorpal Blade,
> Magicbane, Werebane, Dragonbane, and Ogresmasher. Right now I'm using
> Mjollnir but I'll switch if for some reason another weapon is better.

Mojo is nice but break wands (Orcus has a wand of death) and rings. Frost
brand is also useful since few monsters have cold resistance. And freezing
potions is no such a big issue in the late game (you should have plenty of
all the needed potions, though alchemy if needed). For secondary weapon,
choose a silver saber in hell (seers Vampires and demons).

Other artefact weapon are much less useful for you. You may want to keep
Vorpy in case you meet a Jabberwock (but you should ba able toface it
"normally"). Magicbane is nice for its abilities but rather for classes
that do not count on theur weapon to kill everything in sight... And if L
are wiped out, that should be alright.

> While I went to visit my stash a troll with a lightning wand dusted one
> of my two wands of polymorph. Damn. Can I put them in my bag of
> holding? I know you can't put other bags of holding or wands of
> cancellation into a bag of holding, but I didn't want to risk it with
> the wand of polymorph (sounds like it might polymorph the bag or
> something, hehehe).

No problem with BoH and wand of poly.
Only with other BoH, bags of tricks and wands of cancelation.

> Spells I know:

Do you have a robe somewhere ? It could be usefull to have some
"spellcasting outfit" and swap to it when needed (typically for identify
and magic mapping).

> I don't seem to have any enlightenment potions around or else I'd tell
> you about my intrinsics. I have all of the usual ones
> (fire/poison/sleep/cold/etc.), but not, to my knowledge, disintegration.

Reflection will protect you from blask dragon's breath.


You're not too high on HPs (~ 200). It could be nice to alchemise some
full healing and/or nurse dance (you have enough to end the game, but if
you take a bit of time to raise to 300 or 400 HPs vefore therun, it will
certainly not hurt...)

On the artefact side: since you have more than enough artefact, you may
stop offering for artefacts (with Valks, I usually stop once I have Mojo
since it's a really good weapon). Instead, pray asap on altars, this will
lead for lower AC and more HPs, which you will never complain about :-)

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 4:46:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

fishbowl@conservatory.com (james) wrote in news:Sslue.46$8o.13@fed1read03:


> Your armor is pretty good now. Since you have GDSM, yeah, if I were
> you, I'd be tempted to wish for that amulet myself. As for armor class,
> I'd be going for protection through sacrifice. I have a somewhat
> spoily, exploity technique for getting divine protection on the
> fasttrack, but I won't tell unless you ask.

Tell me - I already lost 8 points of protection due to #praying when I
should have #offered. There really should be a patch that makes you type
out "yes" in the "confirm prayer" dialog. And nethack.alt.org should run
that patch.

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 4:48:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Cyde Weys wrote:

> Thanks for the advice everyone, I think I'll tough it out without
> reflection until I kill Medusa and check the statue for a shield of
> reflection. I don't mind equipping a shield instead of an off-hand weapon.
> If that doesn't pan out I'll blow my two wishes on CoMR and SDSM and dust
> my RoP and GDSM. Otherwise I'll wait until the castle and more wishes and
> then I'll optimize myself to get reflection and 2-weapon combat.
>

Why spend two wishes when you just need one thing? You have MR and MC from
the GDSM and cloak of protection. And a CoP gives more AC than a CoMR. You
could go for a shield or an "oMR and only use one wish.

Use extras for magic markers or "I really need (x) now..." situations.
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 5:26:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Thanks for the advice everyone, I think I'll tough it out without
reflection until I kill Medusa and check the statue for a shield of
reflection. I don't mind equipping a shield instead of an off-hand weapon.
If that doesn't pan out I'll blow my two wishes on CoMR and SDSM and dust
my RoP and GDSM. Otherwise I'll wait until the castle and more wishes and
then I'll optimize myself to get reflection and 2-weapon combat.

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 6:33:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu> wrote in
news:Xns967DDA20CDD892galopagosterrapincy@199.45.49.11:

> Thanks for the advice everyone, I think I'll tough it out without
> reflection until I kill Medusa and check the statue for a shield of
> reflection. I don't mind equipping a shield instead of an off-hand
> weapon. If that doesn't pan out I'll blow my two wishes on CoMR and
> SDSM and dust my RoP and GDSM. Otherwise I'll wait until the castle
> and more wishes and then I'll optimize myself to get reflection and
> 2-weapon combat.
>

Ahhh, there we are. Whew.

k - a blessed rustproof +4 helm of brilliance (being worn)
q - a blessed fireproof +5 pair of speed boots (being worn)
y - a blessed +4 gray dragon scale mail (being worn)
z - a blessed rustproof +5 pair of gauntlets of power (being worn)
F - an uncursed +0 shield of reflection (being worn)
M - a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of protection (being worn)
Z - a blessed +1 T-shirt (being worn)

I'll use my current wishes for magic markers and get all of my armor up to
+5. Once I get the Minetown WoW I'll wish for a CoMR and SDSM for dual-
wielding goodness.

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 7:31:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Alrighty then, check it out, equipped equipment:

Amulets
P - a blessed amulet of life saving (being worn)

Weapons
l - a +1 elven broadsword (alternate weapon; not wielded)
C - the blessed rustproof +7 Mjollnir (weapon in hand)
J - a blessed -3 orcish dagger named Teh Dullness
W - 4 +0 elven daggers (in quiver)

Armor
k - a blessed rustproof +4 helm of brilliance (being worn)
q - a blessed fireproof +5 pair of speed boots (being worn)
w - a blessed +4 silver dragon scale mail (being worn)
z - a blessed rustproof +5 pair of gauntlets of power (being worn)
G - a blessed greased fireproof +4 cloak of magic resistance (being worn)
Z - a blessed +4 T-shirt (being worn)

Rings
c - an uncursed ring of searching (on left hand)
g - an uncursed ring of regeneration
D - an uncursed ring of levitation
O - an uncursed ring of teleport control


And I still have three wishes left (just cleared out the castle). At this
point is it worth it to play the disenchant/enchant game to get all of my
equipment up to +5? Or should I save the three wishes for something more
useful?


--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 12:45:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> There really should be a patch that makes you type out "yes" in
> the "confirm prayer" dialog. And nethack.alt.org should run that
> patch.

I don't think that would help at all.

There's already the "prayconfirm" option to protect you, and there's no
confirmation question to #offering. The only way to consciously #pray
when you actually wanted to #offer is when you've got the #pENTERy keys
securely memorised as a sequence.

If this sequence were changed to #pENTERyesENTER, you would *also*
memorise it, and enter it just as easily, I think.

--
Boudewijn.

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 12:50:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jym wrote:

>> While I went to visit my stash a troll with a lightning wand dusted
>> one of my two wands of polymorph. Damn. Can I put them in my bag of
>> holding? I know you can't put other bags of holding or wands of
>> cancellation into a bag of holding, but I didn't want to risk it with
>> the wand of polymorph (...).

> No problem with BoH and wand of poly.
> Only with other BoH, bags of tricks and wands of cancelation.

And even then, a BoT and WoC are safe when they're out of charges.

--
Boudewijn.

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 12:50:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jym wrote:

>> While I went to visit my stash a troll with a lightning wand dusted
>> one of my two wands of polymorph. Damn. Can I put them in my bag of
>> holding? I know you can't put other bags of holding or wands of
>> cancellation into a bag of holding, but I didn't want to risk it with
>> the wand of polymorph (...).

> No problem with BoH and wand of poly.
> Only with other BoH, bags of tricks and wands of cancelation.

And even then, a BoT and WoC are safe when they're out of charges.

--
Boudewijn.

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 12:58:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Adam Lawson wrote:

>> s - an uncursed whistle called magic

> These don't self identify?

Only when you use them while you have a pet. I guess the original poster
found this one after he's already found lots of tin whistles and had
already lost his pet.

>> I have Mjollnir, Frost Brand, Orcrist, Vorpal
>> Blade, Magicbane, Werebane, Dragonbane, and Ogresmasher.

I'd normally use Frost Brand (it's better than Mjollnir), but you may
consider switching to the Vorpal Blade when you've encountered a
creature that teleports to the stairs to heal, since it may kill
monsters in one blow. You may also carry the Magicbane to wield it when
some cursing monster is near. Note, however, that when you wield it, you
cannot wield something else, so killing that creature will take longer.

--
Boudewijn.

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 1:02:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:
> Alrighty then, check it out, equipped equipment:

> Amulets
> P - a blessed amulet of life saving (being worn)
>
> Weapons
> l - a +1 elven broadsword (alternate weapon; not wielded)
> C - the blessed rustproof +7 Mjollnir (weapon in hand)
> J - a blessed -3 orcish dagger named Teh Dullness
> W - 4 +0 elven daggers (in quiver)

Put the weapons you're not using in your bag.

> Armor
> k - a blessed rustproof +4 helm of brilliance (being worn)
> q - a blessed fireproof +5 pair of speed boots (being worn)
> w - a blessed +4 silver dragon scale mail (being worn)
> z - a blessed rustproof +5 pair of gauntlets of power (being worn)
> G - a blessed greased fireproof +4 cloak of magic resistance (being
> worn)
> Z - a blessed +4 T-shirt (being worn)

Now where's that shield?

> Rings
> c - an uncursed ring of searching (on left hand)
> g - an uncursed ring of regeneration
> D - an uncursed ring of levitation
> O - an uncursed ring of teleport control

> And I still have three wishes left (just cleared out the castle). At
> this point is it worth it to play the disenchant/enchant game to get
> all of my equipment up to +5? Or should I save the three wishes for
> something more useful?

I'd suggest a ring of free action, or even a ring of conflict.

--
Boudewijn.

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 1:24:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> Armor
> k - a blessed rustproof +4 helm of brilliance (being worn)
> q - a blessed fireproof +5 pair of speed boots (being worn)
> w - a blessed +4 silver dragon scale mail (being worn)
> z - a blessed rustproof +5 pair of gauntlets of power (being worn)
> G - a blessed greased fireproof +4 cloak of magic resistance (being worn)
> Z - a blessed +4 T-shirt (being worn)
>
> And I still have three wishes left (just cleared out the castle). At
> this point is it worth it to play the disenchant/enchant game to get all
> of my equipment up to +5?

For another 4 points of AC? I usually don't bother doing this any more
even if I have extra ?oEA. Perhaps it would be a different story if one
didn't do much alchemizing for MaxHP; I usually have somewhere in the range
of 300-500 HP at endgame, and I very rarely come remotely close to dying
via HP loss (and, thanks to ?oFH, I've never felt at all worried about
dying this way).

> Or should I save the three wishes for something more useful?

I would.

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 2:30:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> I'd normally use Frost Brand (it's better than Mjollnir), but you may
> consider switching to the Vorpal Blade when you've encountered a
> creature that teleports to the stairs to heal, since it may kill
> monsters in one blow. You may also carry the Magicbane to wield it when
> some cursing monster is near. Note, however, that when you wield it, you
> cannot wield something else, so killing that creature will take longer.

My recent tourist found #twoweaponing Magicbane and an enchanted silver
saber to be a pretty effective combination. It even had the added bonus of
not offending my sensibilities for "realism" too much, unlike walking
around swinging two longswords.

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 4:37:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Seraphim wrote:

> Water in general is still a threat after genociding eels IIRC there are
> non-eel monsters that will drown you. The plane of water however goes
> from increadibly annoying to increadibly trivial, which is nice when your
> at the endgame levels.

I find it trivial anyway, and not annoying at all. Even though I walk
right up to the eels and whack away, it's extremely rare that one will get
as far as "swinging itself around me" (I don't remember if this has ever
happened to me there), and in this case a single zap from a /oT suffices.

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 5:35:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu> writes:

> CydeWeys, Human Female Valkyrie
> St:18/96 Dx:18 Co:18 In:16 Wi:22 Ch:11 Neutral S:910833
> Dlvl:5 $:0 HP:186(186) Pw:51(79) AC:-21 Xp:18/1302644 T:56889 Satiated
>
> So far I have genocided h;Lc

Huh? Genociding c seems a bit odd to me. With care, they
make for extremely efficient weapons.

> J - a blessed -3 orcish dagger named Teh Dullness

You can rust it, too. Don't know if it will decrease the
damage further.

> k - a blessed rustproof +4 helm of brilliance (being worn)
> q - a blessed fireproof +5 pair of speed boots (being worn)
> y - a blessed +4 gray dragon scale mail (being worn)
> z - a blessed rustproof +5 pair of gauntlets of power
> M - a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of protection (being worn)
> Z - a blessed +1 T-shirt (being worn)
[..]
> I don't seem to have any enlightenment potions around or else I'd tell
> you about my intrinsics. I have all of the usual ones
> (fire/poison/sleep/cold/etc.), but not, to my knowledge, disintegration.

Hmhh.. If you had disint resistance, I'd say scratch reflection,
but in a better safe than sorry mode I have to say that an "oR
is useful. I'd also try for a telepathy artifact, like the PYEC.

Best,
Jakob
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 5:37:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> writes:

> Adam Lawson wrote:
>
> >> Reflection will protect you from blask dragon's breath.
> >
> > Is this an always thing, or is there a chance it'll get through 1/XX of
> > the time?
>
> Always. I believe it won't protect you from the wide angle disintegration
> beams that can be fired at you if you really piss of a god, though.

Also, Yenooghu summons missiles upon you which IIRC aren't
influenced by reflection.

Best,
Jakob
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 6:01:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>:
>Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu> writes:
>>So far I have genocided h;Lc
>Huh? Genociding c seems a bit odd to me. With care, they
>make for extremely efficient weapons.

And, not to grind an old axe, genoing ; is a complete waste.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Aponoia, Presuary.
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 6:01:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>:
>
>>Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu> writes:
>>
>>>So far I have genocided h;Lc
>>
>>Huh? Genociding c seems a bit odd to me. With care, they
>>make for extremely efficient weapons.
>
>
> And, not to grind an old axe, genoing ; is a complete waste.

Your viewpoint on this is pretty well-known with the regulars, but your
delivery here might benefit from stating this as an opinion you hold
rather than a fact. Just a thought. And leading in with "not to grind an
old axe" while proceeding to grind an old axe is irritating, too ;-)

-Ken
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 7:09:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> Quoting Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>:
> >Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu> writes:
> >>So far I have genocided h;Lc
> >Huh? Genociding c seems a bit odd to me. With care, they
> >make for extremely efficient weapons.
>
> And, not to grind an old axe, genoing ; is a complete waste.

Assuming a perfect player, yes. Assuming somebody more like
me, no. If it's raising the player's survival statistics,
it's not a /complete/ waste, and if the only benefit were that
one could drop the care about water, it would still not be.

Best,
Jakob
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 7:58:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>:
>David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>>Quoting Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>:
>>>Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu> writes:
>>>>So far I have genocided h;Lc
>>>Huh? Genociding c seems a bit odd to me. With care, they
>>>make for extremely efficient weapons.
>>And, not to grind an old axe, genoing ; is a complete waste.
>Assuming a perfect player, yes. Assuming somebody more like me, no.

I really don't understand this.

Sure, it takes a perfect player not to _ever_ make any typos, and none of
us can say that.

But with eels, we're not talking about never making any typos; we're
talking about a very specific set of circumstances that come up quite
infrequently. Surely anyone can summon the focus not to move next to water
(or dig out a WoTele, or whatever) for the few minutes they are on a level
which still has a live sea monster on?
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Aponoia, Presuary.
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 9:57:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> Quoting Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>:
> >David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
> >>Quoting Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>:
> >>>Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu> writes:
> >>>>So far I have genocided h;Lc
> >>>Huh? Genociding c seems a bit odd to me. With care, they
> >>>make for extremely efficient weapons.
> >>And, not to grind an old axe, genoing ; is a complete waste.
> >Assuming a perfect player, yes. Assuming somebody more like me, no.
>
> I really don't understand this.

It's simple. If I look at my survival statistics

(a) if I don't genocide ;

(b) if I genocide ;

then (b) has significantly higher ascension ratio (about 10%[1]
relatively more, I'd say). Hence, I conclude that genociding ;
is beneficial for my ascension ratio, all other side conditions
being equal.

[Of course, since I like conduct ascensions, I do not usually
try to maximize the ratio per se.]

The rationalization is that although I know not to step near
water, I sometimes simply forget it.

Best,
Jakob

[1] Admittedly, the database is a little small for such
bold claims. Not really thousands of ascensions ;-).
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 9:57:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>:
>David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>>Quoting Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>:
>>>David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>>>>And, not to grind an old axe, genoing ; is a complete waste.
>>>Assuming a perfect player, yes. Assuming somebody more like me, no.
>>I really don't understand this.
>It's simple. If I look at my survival statistics
>(a) if I don't genocide ;
>(b) if I genocide ;

I believe this as a fact, but I just cannot comprehend why.

Unless it's correlation but not causation. Maybe you genocide ; in the
games where you have lots of stuff, and it's the lots of stuff that makes
you likely to ascend. For example, assuming you do L first, some
proportion of the games where you don't do ; are ones where you also don't
do L or are compelled to burn a wish from the Castle wand rather than
finding the scroll.

.... or your sample is not statistically significant.

>The rationalization is that although I know not to step near
>water, I sometimes simply forget it.

*How*?

I mean, when you arrive near water, isn't your first order of business to
find and kill the eels? Because once they're gone, the water is not a
threat any more. That's part of why I don't believe it; sure, I spend a
fair bit of time on Medusa, but only a very few moves with eels on the
level.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Aponoia, Presuary.
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 9:57:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:

*snip*

> Quoting Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>:
>>The rationalization is that although I know not to step near
>>water, I sometimes simply forget it.
>
>
> *How*?
>
> I mean, when you arrive near water, isn't your first order of business to
> find and kill the eels? Because once they're gone, the water is not a
> threat any more. That's part of why I don't believe it; sure, I spend a
> fair bit of time on Medusa, but only a very few moves with eels on the
> level.

And this brings us around to player preferences. Perhaps there are some
players who would rather not have to monkey around with eels or krakens
when they arrive at a level that has them. To say that genociding ; is a
complete waste is to say that players who want to do other things than
worry about ; in moats or Medusa's Lair or even the Plane of Water are
not worthy of consideration.

You seem to enjoy the challenge of dealing with ; directly. Others may
not. Can we simply agree to disagree and drop it?

-Ken
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 9:57:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> "Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:
>> Cyde Weys wrote:
>>
>>> There really should be a patch that makes you type out "yes" in
>>> the "confirm prayer" dialog. And nethack.alt.org should run that
>>> patch.
>>
>> I don't think that would help at all.
>>
>> There's already the "prayconfirm" option to protect you, and there's no
>> confirmation question to #offering.
>
> Yes there is - "There are 4 brown pudding corpses here, do you wish to
> sacrifice one? [yN]"

Anyone engaging in pudding farming deserves to be bit on the ass by this
one :) 

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening
June 23, 2005 11:17:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in
news:U-l*rIRRq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk:

>>The rationalization is that although I know not to step near
>>water, I sometimes simply forget it.
>
> *How*?

Well, I can tell you how I did it once:
Walk into a room
Read "You smell marsh gas!"
Wonder what the heck that means
Walk one space farther into a room
Get attacked by an electric eel
Die

> I mean, when you arrive near water, isn't your first order of
> business to find and kill the eels? Because once they're gone, the
> water is not a threat any more. That's part of why I don't believe
> it; sure, I spend a fair bit of time on Medusa, but only a very few
> moves with eels on the level.

Water in general is still a threat after genociding eels IIRC there are
non-eel monsters that will drown you. The plane of water however goes
from increadibly annoying to increadibly trivial, which is nice when your
at the endgame levels.
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 2:17:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote in news:D 9dlr6
$nvj$1@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl:

> Cyde Weys wrote:
>
>> There really should be a patch that makes you type out "yes" in
>> the "confirm prayer" dialog. And nethack.alt.org should run that
>> patch.
>
> I don't think that would help at all.
>
> There's already the "prayconfirm" option to protect you, and there's no
> confirmation question to #offering.

Yes there is - "There are 4 brown pudding corpses here, do you wish to
sacrifice one? [yN]"

> The only way to consciously #pray
> when you actually wanted to #offer is when you've got the #pENTERy keys
> securely memorised as a sequence.

The sequence of characters to #pray and #offer is only one character apart:

# o [autocomplete] y
# p [autocomplete] y

It doesn't help that o and p are right next to each other on the keyboard
and it's easy to hit the wrong one. Thus, something else should be done to
break up the sequence besides that single key difference, such as requiring
you to type "yes" for prayer.

I've made this mistake a few times now ... hell, pudding farming gets
boring fast, and you tend to rush through sacrificing whole stacks of
corpses. I also know I'm not the only one suffering from this problem, as
I recall others doing the same thing on this newsgroup.

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 2:19:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Ken Cuvelier <kvcflameNO@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote in
news:11blnudsti5s4aa@corp.supernews.com:

> David Damerell wrote:
>> Quoting Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>:
>>
>>>Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu> writes:
>>>
>>>>So far I have genocided h;Lc
>>>
>>>Huh? Genociding c seems a bit odd to me. With care, they
>>>make for extremely efficient weapons.
>>
>>
>> And, not to grind an old axe, genoing ; is a complete waste.
>
> Your viewpoint on this is pretty well-known with the regulars, but your
> delivery here might benefit from stating this as an opinion you hold
> rather than a fact. Just a thought. And leading in with "not to grind an
> old axe" while proceeding to grind an old axe is irritating, too ;-)

Stupid deaths infuriate me the most. I've already had my really
embarrassing cockatrice and kraken deaths. I know how to handle them now,
but I really just don't want to make that stupid mistake. So I start with
genociding the usuals, h and L, and then if I come across more genocides
(or extra charges on a magic marker, really), I go for ; and then c. I
play this game to Ascend, not die to something really stupid. If I'm down
2 AC because I genocided ; instead of writing two scrolls of enchant armor,
I'm fine with that. I can deal with 2 less AC; there's nothing to prevent
a stupid drowning death besides genociding ; though.

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 4:06:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:

> Quoting Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu>:
>> play this game to Ascend, not die to something really stupid. If I'm
>> down 2 AC because I genocided ; instead of writing two scrolls of
>> enchant armor, I'm fine with that.
>
> How much might you be down because you didn't wipe disenchanters? How
> dead can green slime make you? Unlike eels, slime's allowed to come and
> get you. Even doing c first would make more sense - c can come and get
> you as well.

I completely agree with you in regard to the usefulness of genociding eels,
but they *can* come and get you on the Plane of Water, no?

You're not advocating genociding green slimes (is that the plural?), are you?

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 4:10:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Benjamin Lewis wrote:


> Anyone engaging in pudding farming deserves to be bit on the ass by this
> one :) 
>

I've pudding farmed once.

It's punishment enough. I spent around 15,000 turns doing it, and got
nothing but a bunch of freaking spellbooks, artifacts, and crowned (and I
didn't want that!).
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 4:47:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:
> "Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote in news:D 9dlr6
> $nvj$1@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl:
>>The only way to consciously #pray
>>when you actually wanted to #offer is when you've got the #pENTERy keys
>>securely memorised as a sequence.
>
>
> The sequence of characters to #pray and #offer is only one character apart:
>
> # o [autocomplete] y
> # p [autocomplete] y
>
> It doesn't help that o and p are right next to each other on the keyboard
> and it's easy to hit the wrong one. Thus, something else should be done to
> break up the sequence besides that single key difference, such as requiring
> you to type "yes" for prayer.

An option to disable autocomplete?
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 8:14:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

BManx2000 <bmanx2000@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:JKIue.72758$HI.35577@edtnps84:

> Cyde Weys wrote:
>> "Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote in
>> news:D 9dlr6 $nvj$1@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl:
>>>The only way to consciously #pray
>>>when you actually wanted to #offer is when you've got the #pENTERy
>>>keys securely memorised as a sequence.
>>
>>
>> The sequence of characters to #pray and #offer is only one character
>> apart:
>>
>> # o [autocomplete] y
>> # p [autocomplete] y
>>
>> It doesn't help that o and p are right next to each other on the
>> keyboard and it's easy to hit the wrong one. Thus, something else
>> should be done to break up the sequence besides that single key
>> difference, such as requiring you to type "yes" for prayer.
>
> An option to disable autocomplete?

Heh, but I like autocomplete. Who wants to type out #offer each time for
stacks of dozens of pudding corpses?

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 8:26:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote in news:D 9dnv0
$10v$2@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl:

> Adam Lawson wrote:
>
>>> s - an uncursed whistle called magic
>
>> These don't self identify?
>
> Only when you use them while you have a pet. I guess the original poster
> found this one after he's already found lots of tin whistles and had
> already lost his pet.

It's a bit simpler than that ...

tin whistles make a high-pitched whistling noise, and magic whistles make a
strange whistling noise. No pets or collecting a large number of whistles
needed.



--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 10:56:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Benjamin Lewis wrote:
<snip>
> My recent tourist found #twoweaponing Magicbane and an enchanted silver
> saber to be a pretty effective combination. It even had the added bonus of
> not offending my sensibilities for "realism" too much, unlike walking
> around swinging two longswords.

Ha! Try two lances. I'm enjoying my knight way too much.

Maybe there's something Freudian about this.

-K
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 11:08:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu>:
>Ken Cuvelier <kvcflameNO@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote in
>>David Damerell wrote:
>>>And, not to grind an old axe, genoing ; is a complete waste.
>>Your viewpoint on this is pretty well-known with the regulars, but your
>>delivery here might benefit from stating this as an opinion you hold
>>rather than a fact.

Well, no, it's a fact, at least with the implicit "with the most
elementary levels of caution" appended.

>play this game to Ascend, not die to something really stupid. If I'm down
>2 AC because I genocided ; instead of writing two scrolls of enchant armor,
>I'm fine with that.

How much might you be down because you didn't wipe disenchanters? How dead
can green slime make you? Unlike eels, slime's allowed to come and get
you. Even doing c first would make more sense - c can come and get you as
well.

[Personally, I think the offensive benefit of leaving c alive is greater -
but that's fair enough either way.]

>I can deal with 2 less AC; there's nothing to prevent
>a stupid drowning death besides genociding ; though.

Elementary caution. If you really cannot summon the self-control not to
make one-space moves at random at very specific times, don't stand within
2 spaces of the water before you've killed the eels.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Epithumia, Presuary - a weekend.
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 12:02:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca>:
>Cyde Weys wrote:
>>And I still have three wishes left (just cleared out the castle). At
>>this point is it worth it to play the disenchant/enchant game to get all
>>of my equipment up to +5?
>For another 4 points of AC? I usually don't bother doing this any more
>even if I have extra ?oEA.

I don't even bother for primary attack weapons - never have. Certainly I
would not burn any wishes on it when they could provide valuable emergency
options.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Epithumia, Presuary - a weekend.
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 12:06:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Ken Cuvelier <kvcflameNO@SPAMyahoo.com>:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>I mean, when you arrive near water, isn't your first order of business to
>>find and kill the eels? Because once they're gone, the water is not a
>>threat any more. That's part of why I don't believe it; sure, I spend a
>>fair bit of time on Medusa, but only a very few moves with eels on the
>> level.
>And this brings us around to player preferences. Perhaps there are some
>players who would rather not have to monkey around with eels or krakens
>when they arrive at a level that has them.

But this has moved the genocide from a lifesaver to a minor nuisance, and
there are plenty of other monsters that potentially provide minor
annoyances, so why this one?

Frankly, I don't see Jakob or Cyde saying "the genocide eliminates some
minor annoyance"; I see them saying it's a lifesaver.

If you want to chop terminology, fine, I assert only that genociding ; is
a complete waste except inasmuch as it may eliminate some minor annoyance.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Epithumia, Presuary - a weekend.
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 12:06:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 2005-06-24, David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting Ken Cuvelier <kvcflameNO@SPAMyahoo.com>:
>
> But this has moved the genocide from a lifesaver to a minor nuisance, and
> there are plenty of other monsters that potentially provide minor
> annoyances, so why this one?
>
I guess it's a question of what happens when a player who is too annoyed
to bother approaches these ungenocided "minor nuisances" without care.
When you stomp into a disenchanter, your gear gets disenchanted.
Stomp into an eel and you might die.

Certainly we're talking about YASDs here, but that sort of thing is what all
_my_ mid-game characters die of.

Ohle
--
Jann Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
http://www.stud.uni-goettingen.de/~s251251
"I will have a foreign-handed foreign policy."
--dubya
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 12:39:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca>:
>My recent tourist found #twoweaponing Magicbane and an enchanted silver
>saber to be a pretty effective combination.

I missed that out of my grand unified proposal; cap the weight of the
offhand weapon based on skill (so an expert Samurai can just manage two
katana) and the onhand weapon full stop (so you can't twoweapon with a
lance or polearm).

And throw away 9/10 of the polearms. Sheesh.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Epithumia, Presuary - a weekend.
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 12:59:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca>:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>How much might you be down because you didn't wipe disenchanters? How
>>dead can green slime make you? Unlike eels, slime's allowed to come and
>>get you. Even doing c first would make more sense - c can come and get
>>you as well.
>I completely agree with you in regard to the usefulness of genociding eels,
>but they *can* come and get you on the Plane of Water, no?

By then one will almost always have plenty of other effective defense -
and even then a determined dance keeps out of melee range. I admit it's a
bit trickier if you really haven't found any of the defensive items - but,
hell, if you saved the genocide you can always pop it then.

>You're not advocating genociding green slimes (is that the plural?), are you?

No - but if you put a gun to my head and told me to do them or eels, I'd
do them. At least they can (normally) come and get you rather than wait
for you to be sporting enough to close the range.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Epithumia, Presuary - a weekend.
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 2:01:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 24 Jun 2005 08:39:58 +0100 (BST)
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> I missed that out of my grand unified proposal; cap the weight of the
> offhand weapon based on skill (so an expert Samurai can just manage
> two katana) and the onhand weapon full stop (so you can't twoweapon
> with a lance or polearm).

Actually, that in itself would a massive improvement over the current
system and would be simple to implement. If the off-hand weapon were
limited to small weapons (knife, dagger, short sword basically),
twoweaponing would be much less a no-brainer. Obviously, the damage
would be less, but you would also have to deal with developing a weapon
skill that you may not have bothered with before.

> And throw away 9/10 of the polearms. Sheesh.

Obviously.


While we're at it, what about reducing or eliminating the Luck bonus on
to-hit? Maybe something like +1-5 Luck -> +1 To-Hit and so forth. It's
pretty silly how, at the moment, once you get the Luckstone and a couple
sacrifices or uni gems you never miss again. Furthermore, this would
create a nice XL pressure - keeping your XL low would come at the cost
of a lower To-Hit.

--
Todd Pytel
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 2:42:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> Frankly, I don't see Jakob or Cyde saying "the genocide eliminates some
> minor annoyance"; I see them saying it's a lifesaver.

Let me just put it that way: It helps me to avoid YASD.
Whether the death could have been avoidable or not does
not matter much to the fallen character anymore ;-).

Best,
Jakob
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 2:56:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Ohle Claussen <claussen@dpi.physik.uni-goettingen.de>:
>On 2005-06-24, David Damerell wrote:
>>But this has moved the genocide from a lifesaver to a minor nuisance, and
>>there are plenty of other monsters that potentially provide minor
>>annoyances, so why this one?
>I guess it's a question of what happens when a player who is too annoyed
>to bother approaches these ungenocided "minor nuisances" without care.

That's just a matter of lacking elementary caution, since unlike other
nuisances eels are only encountered under very specific circumstances.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Epithumia, Presuary - a weekend.
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 2:57:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>:
>David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>>Frankly, I don't see Jakob or Cyde saying "the genocide eliminates some
>>minor annoyance"; I see them saying it's a lifesaver.
>Let me just put it that way: It helps me to avoid YASD.

I believe that. I just don't see how anyone can ascend can be incapable of
the mental discipline not to run up to the water at these very specific
short intervals in the game.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Epithumia, Presuary - a weekend.
!