Proposed Meta-Metamagic Feats

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Improved Heighten Spell (General)

Prerequisites: Caster Level 7, Heighten Spell, one other metamagic feat.

Benefit: Whenever you cast a spell, its effective level is equal to the
level of the spell slot you spent casting it. If the spell has
not been enhanced by any metamagic, the effective level
is one level higher than that.

-----

Improved Spontaneous Metamagic (General)

Prerequisites: Combat Casting

Benefit: Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell doesn't increase
that spell's casting time. This can benefit a cleric's Cure/
Inflict spells, a Druid's Summon Nature's Ally spells, and
of course Sorcerer and Bard spells.



What do y'all think? Too powerful? Is Caster Level 7 too restrictive
for IHS? Note that, as written, Wizards can't take these as bonus
feats, since they're General... should they be able to?

--
Donald

 

[Matthias]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:25:23 +0000 (UTC), tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (Donald
Tsang) wrote:

>Improved Heighten Spell (General)
>
>Prerequisites: Caster Level 7, Heighten Spell, one other metamagic feat.
>
>Benefit: Whenever you cast a spell, its effective level is equal to the
> level of the spell slot you spent casting it. If the spell has
> not been enhanced by any metamagic, the effective level
> is one level higher than that.

Someone would more than likely would take this feat and then Quicken a spell
just so they could get 4 extra levels out of it instead of just the 1 with
Heighten Spell.

I could see an Improved Heighten adding an additional effective level on top of
Heighten, though. A metamagic feat that /doesn't/ do that, shouldn't be called
Improved Heighten IMO.

As written, IHS should be Epic level.


>Improved Spontaneous Metamagic (General)
>
>Prerequisites: Combat Casting
>
>Benefit: Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell doesn't increase
> that spell's casting time. This can benefit a cleric's Cure/
> Inflict spells, a Druid's Summon Nature's Ally spells, and
> of course Sorcerer and Bard spells.

This meta-metamagic should have Quicken Spell as a prereq.

It would be a bad idea IMO to have Sorcerers running around with this feat.
Having metamagicked spontaneous spells take more time discourages a caster from
doing it with every spell they can, willy-nilly. (They can still do it, but it
consumes all their effort in an encounter). I'd probably limit this feat to work
with individual spells like Spell Mastery.

But as written, ISM should be Epic level.


>What do y'all think? Too powerful? Is Caster Level 7 too restrictive
>for IHS?

Not restrictive enough IMO.


>Note that, as written, Wizards can't take these as bonus
>feats, since they're General... should they be able to?

No.

--

Matthias (matthias_mls@yahoo.com)

"Scientists tend to do philosophy about as well as you'd expect philosophers to
do science, the difference being that at least the philosophers usually *know*
when they're out of their depth."
-Jeff Heikkinen

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matthias <matthias_mls@yahoo.com> wrote:
>tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (Donald Tsang) wrote:
>>Improved Heighten Spell (General)
>>
>>Prerequisites: Caster Level 7, Heighten Spell, one other metamagic feat.
>>
>>Benefit: Whenever you cast a spell, its effective level is equal to the
>> level of the spell slot you spent casting it. If the spell has
>> not been enhanced by any metamagic, the effective level
>> is one level higher than that.
>
>Someone would more than likely would take this feat and then Quicken a spell
>just so they could get 4 extra levels out of it instead of just the 1 with
>Heighten Spell.

You're still spending an Nth level slot to cast an (N-4)th level spell,
at its base. The improvement in save DC is really nice, but... I dunno.
Is it that powerful?


>I could see an Improved Heighten adding an additional effective
>level on top of Heighten, though. A metamagic feat that /doesn't/
>do that, shouldn't be called Improved Heighten IMO.
>
>As written, IHS should be Epic level.

Does it make sense as an Epic feat, though? How would you "fix" it for
use by non-epic characters?


>>Improved Spontaneous Metamagic (General)
>>
>>Prerequisites: Combat Casting
>>
>>Benefit: Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell doesn't increase
>> that spell's casting time. This can benefit a cleric's Cure/
>> Inflict spells, a Druid's Summon Nature's Ally spells, and
>> of course Sorcerer and Bard spells.
>
>This meta-metamagic should have Quicken Spell as a prereq.

That's a useless feat for a Bard or Sorcerer. Combat Casting is already
a lame enough feat, IMO. Oh, I forgot to include "you still can't use
Quicken Spell on spontaneously metamagic'd spells".


>It would be a bad idea IMO to have Sorcerers running around with
>this feat. Having metamagicked spontaneous spells take more time
>discourages a caster from doing it with every spell they can,
>willy-nilly. (They can still do it, but it consumes all their effort
>in an encounter). I'd probably limit this feat to work with individual
>spells like Spell Mastery.

It costs one more feat than "Arcane Preparation", which has a somewhat-
similar effect. I really don't see why it's so dangerous.


>But as written, ISM should be Epic level.

Why? Would it be "more balanced" as Epic?

Donald

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (Donald Tsang) wrote in
news:d11phj$244f$1@agate.berkeley.edu:

> Improved Heighten Spell (General)
>
> Prerequisites: Caster Level 7, Heighten Spell, one other
> metamagic feat.
>
> Benefit: Whenever you cast a spell, its effective level is equal
> to the level of the spell slot you spent casting it. If the
> spell has
> not been enhanced by any metamagic, the effective level
> is one level higher than that.

Isn't the first part the same as Heighten Spell?



> -----
>
> Improved Spontaneous Metamagic (General)
>
> Prerequisites: Combat Casting
>
> Benefit: Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell
> doesn't increase that spell's casting time. This can
> benefit a cleric's Cure/ Inflict spells, a Druid's Summon
> Nature's Ally spells, and of course Sorcerer and Bard spells.

Far too good. This is effectively Automatic Quicken [+3] Spell and
Automatic Still or Silent [+1] Spell is an Epic Feat. Every single
sorceror would go for this as soon as they could. It's far too
good as written even for an Epic Feat. If you want to keep it,
make it an Epic Feat with Quicken Spell as a prerequisite, only
affecting 3 levels of spells (qv Automatic Still & Silent) and add
some major drawback - losing an additional spell slot of the same
level.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Quentin Stephens <stq@stq.gro.ku.invalid> wrote:
> tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (Donald Tsang) wrote in
> news:d11phj$244f$1@agate.berkeley.edu:
>
>> Improved Heighten Spell (General)
>>
>> Prerequisites: Caster Level 7, Heighten Spell, one other
>> metamagic feat.
>>
>> Benefit: Whenever you cast a spell, its effective level is equal
>> to the level of the spell slot you spent casting it. If the
>> spell has
>> not been enhanced by any metamagic, the effective level
>> is one level higher than that.
>
> Isn't the first part the same as Heighten Spell?

No, because it converts the higher spell slot needed by other metamagics
to actual higher spell level. That is, your quickened fireball is
cast with a seventh-level slot, but is still considered only a third-level
spell for save DC/globe of invulnerability purposes. This actually
jacks it up to a seventh-level spell -- +4 to save DC, blows through
globe of invulnerability.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:53:54 +0000, Matthias wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:25:23 +0000 (UTC), tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (Donald
> Tsang) wrote:
>
>>Improved Heighten Spell (General)
>>
>>Prerequisites: Caster Level 7, Heighten Spell, one other metamagic feat.
>>
>>Benefit: Whenever you cast a spell, its effective level is equal to the
>> level of the spell slot you spent casting it. If the spell has
>> not been enhanced by any metamagic, the effective level
>> is one level higher than that.
>
> Someone would more than likely would take this feat and then Quicken a spell
> just so they could get 4 extra levels out of it instead of just the 1 with
> Heighten Spell.

Because you can already use any slot you want. For example, with a 1st
level spell:

Quickened, with IHS: Uses 5th level slot, counts as 5th level spell.

Just IHS, using 5th level slot: Counts as 6th level spell.


--
Phoenix

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Quentin Stephens <stq@stq.gro.ku.invalid> wrote:
>tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu (Donald Tsang) wrote in
>> Improved Spontaneous Metamagic (General)
>>
>> Prerequisites: Combat Casting
>>
>> Benefit: Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell
>> doesn't increase that spell's casting time. This can
>> benefit a cleric's Cure/ Inflict spells, a Druid's Summon
>> Nature's Ally spells, and of course Sorcerer and Bard spells.
>
>Far too good. This is effectively Automatic Quicken [+3] Spell and
>Automatic Still or Silent [+1] Spell is an Epic Feat. Every single
>sorceror would go for this as soon as they could. It's far too
>good as written even for an Epic Feat. If you want to keep it,
>make it an Epic Feat with Quicken Spell as a prerequisite, only
>affecting 3 levels of spells (qv Automatic Still & Silent) and add
>some major drawback - losing an additional spell slot of the same
>level.

Any suggestions on how to make it a non-Epic-level feat?

I'm not sure I understand why it's "far too good". I did mean to
write that this feat wouldn't allow Quicken Spell to be spontaneously
applied, if that changes your mind at all... Complete Arcane has a
feat for that, though.

It's not like Sorcerers get a lot of feats (7, or 8 as a human, at
20th level); since Combat Casting is so lame, I'm not sure how many
players would be willing to give up two feat slots in order to have
access to metamagic flexibility at higher levels.

Also, remember that Sorcerers can always take Arcane Preparation as a
single feat, and effectively have the *power* of this feat, though
not the flexibility.

How about making it only work on spell schools for which the caster
has Spell Focus?

Donald

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Quentin Stephens wrote:
> Hong Ooi <hong@zipworld.com.au> wrote in
> news:bdta3198u671hunmnffmscfvgc8jgcgdsj@4ax.com:
>
> > On 13 Mar 2005 21:13:23 GMT, Quentin Stephens
> > <stq@stq.gro.ku.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >>> Improved Spontaneous Metamagic (General)
> >>>
> >>> Prerequisites: Combat Casting
> >>>
> >>> Benefit: Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell
> >>> doesn't increase that spell's casting time. This can
> >>> benefit a cleric's Cure/ Inflict spells, a Druid's Summon
> >>> Nature's Ally spells, and of course Sorcerer and Bard spells.
> >>
> >>Far too good. This is effectively Automatic Quicken [+3] Spell
> >>and Automatic Still or Silent [+1] Spell is an Epic Feat. Every
> >>single sorceror would go for this as soon as they could. It's
> >>far too good as written even for an Epic Feat. If you want to
> >>keep it, make it an Epic Feat with Quicken Spell as a
> >>prerequisite, only affecting 3 levels of spells (qv Automatic
> >>Still & Silent) and add some major drawback - losing an
> >>additional spell slot of the same level.
> >
> > Eh. That's more a function of how epic metamagic feats are
> > generally useless.
>
> Take Automatic Still Spell three times (not so difficult if you're
> using a Prestige Class) and you can wear whatever armour you
> desire.

Take Automatic Quicken spell three times and you can throw any
standard casting time spell you have up to level 9 (inclusive)
as a free action.

Automatic Quicken spell three times roughly doubles the character
effectiveness in combat.

DougL

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Donald Tsang wrote:
> DougL <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote:
> >> >>> Improved Spontaneous Metamagic (General)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Prerequisites: Combat Casting
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Benefit: Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell
> >> >>> doesn't increase that spell's casting time. This can
> >> >>> benefit a cleric's Cure/ Inflict spells, a Druid's Summon
> >> >>> Nature's Ally spells, and of course Sorcerer and Bard spells.
> >> >>
> >> >>Far too good. This is effectively Automatic Quicken [+3] Spell
> >> >>and Automatic Still or Silent [+1] Spell is an Epic Feat. Every
> >> >>single sorceror would go for this as soon as they could. It's
> >> >>far too good as written even for an Epic Feat. If you want to
> >> >>keep it, make it an Epic Feat with Quicken Spell as a
> >> >>prerequisite, only affecting 3 levels of spells (qv Automatic
> >> >>Still & Silent) and add some major drawback - losing an
> >> >>additional spell slot of the same level.
> >> >
> >> > Eh. That's more a function of how epic metamagic feats are
> >> > generally useless.
> >>
> >> Take Automatic Still Spell three times (not so difficult if you're
> >> using a Prestige Class) and you can wear whatever armour you
> >> desire.
> >
> >Take Automatic Quicken spell three times and you can throw any
> >standard casting time spell you have up to level 9 (inclusive)
> >as a free action.
> >
> >Automatic Quicken spell three times roughly doubles the character
> >effectiveness in combat.
>
> Jog my memory: does Automatic X apply the X metamagic for free
> (i.e., without increasing the slot level requirement on the spell)?
> If so, my proposed feat is *way* weaker than that -- it only cuts
> out the extra casting time.

Yep Automatic X once applies it to all spells up to level 3,
automatic X twice goes to level 6, automatic X three times
takes it to level 9.

Automatic Still and Silent are IMAO, not a problem and if
anything badly underpowered (yeh, your wizard can wear armor,
yawn).

Automatic Quicken is, again IMAO, horribly unballanced. But
then the Epic level handbook was so badly designed (at least
for 3.0) that I quite simply refused to use it and wrote
my own rules. Some things were too good, others far too weak,
others still broken.

DougL

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 13 Mar 2005 21:13:23 GMT, Quentin Stephens <stq@stq.gro.ku.invalid>
wrote:

>> Improved Spontaneous Metamagic (General)
>>
>> Prerequisites: Combat Casting
>>
>> Benefit: Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell
>> doesn't increase that spell's casting time. This can
>> benefit a cleric's Cure/ Inflict spells, a Druid's Summon
>> Nature's Ally spells, and of course Sorcerer and Bard spells.
>
>Far too good. This is effectively Automatic Quicken [+3] Spell and
>Automatic Still or Silent [+1] Spell is an Epic Feat. Every single
>sorceror would go for this as soon as they could. It's far too
>good as written even for an Epic Feat. If you want to keep it,
>make it an Epic Feat with Quicken Spell as a prerequisite, only
>affecting 3 levels of spells (qv Automatic Still & Silent) and add
>some major drawback - losing an additional spell slot of the same
>level.

Eh. That's more a function of how epic metamagic feats are generally
useless.


--
Hong Ooi | "COUNTERSRTIKE IS AN REAL-TIME
hong@zipworld.com.au | STRATEGY GAME!!!"
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | -- RR
Sydney, Australia |

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Hong Ooi <hong@zipworld.com.au> wrote in
news:bdta3198u671hunmnffmscfvgc8jgcgdsj@4ax.com:

> On 13 Mar 2005 21:13:23 GMT, Quentin Stephens
> <stq@stq.gro.ku.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Improved Spontaneous Metamagic (General)
>>>
>>> Prerequisites: Combat Casting
>>>
>>> Benefit: Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell
>>> doesn't increase that spell's casting time. This can
>>> benefit a cleric's Cure/ Inflict spells, a Druid's Summon
>>> Nature's Ally spells, and of course Sorcerer and Bard spells.
>>
>>Far too good. This is effectively Automatic Quicken [+3] Spell
>>and Automatic Still or Silent [+1] Spell is an Epic Feat. Every
>>single sorceror would go for this as soon as they could. It's
>>far too good as written even for an Epic Feat. If you want to
>>keep it, make it an Epic Feat with Quicken Spell as a
>>prerequisite, only affecting 3 levels of spells (qv Automatic
>>Still & Silent) and add some major drawback - losing an
>>additional spell slot of the same level.
>
> Eh. That's more a function of how epic metamagic feats are
> generally useless.

Take Automatic Still Spell three times (not so difficult if you're
using a Prestige Class) and you can wear whatever armour you
desire.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

DougL <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote:
>> >>> Improved Spontaneous Metamagic (General)
>> >>>
>> >>> Prerequisites: Combat Casting
>> >>>
>> >>> Benefit: Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell
>> >>> doesn't increase that spell's casting time. This can
>> >>> benefit a cleric's Cure/ Inflict spells, a Druid's Summon
>> >>> Nature's Ally spells, and of course Sorcerer and Bard spells.
>> >>
>> >>Far too good. This is effectively Automatic Quicken [+3] Spell
>> >>and Automatic Still or Silent [+1] Spell is an Epic Feat. Every
>> >>single sorceror would go for this as soon as they could. It's
>> >>far too good as written even for an Epic Feat. If you want to
>> >>keep it, make it an Epic Feat with Quicken Spell as a
>> >>prerequisite, only affecting 3 levels of spells (qv Automatic
>> >>Still & Silent) and add some major drawback - losing an
>> >>additional spell slot of the same level.
>> >
>> > Eh. That's more a function of how epic metamagic feats are
>> > generally useless.
>>
>> Take Automatic Still Spell three times (not so difficult if you're
>> using a Prestige Class) and you can wear whatever armour you
>> desire.
>
>Take Automatic Quicken spell three times and you can throw any
>standard casting time spell you have up to level 9 (inclusive)
>as a free action.
>
>Automatic Quicken spell three times roughly doubles the character
>effectiveness in combat.

Jog my memory: does Automatic X apply the X metamagic for free
(i.e., without increasing the slot level requirement on the spell)?
If so, my proposed feat is *way* weaker than that -- it only cuts
out the extra casting time.

Donald

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

DougL <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote:
>Donald Tsang wrote:
>> >> >>> Improved Spontaneous Metamagic (General)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Prerequisites: Combat Casting
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Benefit: Applying metamagic to a spontaneously-cast spell
>> >> >>> doesn't increase that spell's casting time. This can
>> >> >>> benefit a cleric's Cure/ Inflict spells, a Druid's Summon
>> >> >>> Nature's Ally spells, and of course Sorcerer and Bard spells.
>>
>> Jog my memory: does Automatic X apply the X metamagic for free
>> (i.e., without increasing the slot level requirement on the spell)?
>> If so, my proposed feat is *way* weaker than that -- it only cuts
>> out the extra casting time.
>
>Yep Automatic X once applies it to all spells up to level 3,
>automatic X twice goes to level 6, automatic X three times
>takes it to level 9.

So, umm, what's your opinion on the proposed feat?

Donald