Continual Flame - Permanent?

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Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
least. With a permanent duration most characters would carry around
something with this cast on it, completely avoiding the need for any other
light source (torches, lanterns, ect.) Could be used for street lights in
cities as well...

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Andrew James Alan Welty wrote:
> Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
> when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
> Light used up the material it was cast on,

No it didn't. Maybe in 2nd ed they did that, but not in 1e or the
original.




--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/

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On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:06:41 -0800, Andrew James Alan Welty
<andrew@cci-29palms.com> scribed into the ether:

>Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
>when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
>Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
>least.

No it didn't. It's the exact same spell just with a changed name.

> Could be used for street lights in cities as well...

And should be.

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"Andrew James Alan Welty" <andrew@cci-29palms.com> wrote in message
newsan.2005.03.13.21.06.40.918644@cci-29palms.com...
> Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
> when most require Permanency to be cast?

Because it's a highly, highly specialised 0-level spell, essentially. It's
a single-purpose zero-level effect with a huge duration. Where would you
place it?

- David Prokopetz.

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Andrew James Alan Welty wrote:
> Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
> when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
> Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
> least. With a permanent duration most characters would carry around
> something with this cast on it, completely avoiding the need for any other
> light source (torches, lanterns, ect.) Could be used for street lights in
> cities as well...

I don't see how it completely avoids the need for any other light
source. Our group of 10-13 level characters and our group of 6-8 level
characters both have continual flame light sources, but we only use them
in absolute emergencies. Normally we have daylight or sunrods. Take a
look...continual flame only has a 10' radius, while most encounters
happen more than 10' away. If you start out 10' from that fomorian
giant, you're screwed! Even against orcs, you won't be too happy with
10' of vision (as they skewer you with javelins from 60' away and you
can't even tell where they are to fight back).

Alex
--
My words are my own. They represent no other; they belong to no other.
Don't read anything into them or you may be required to compensate me
for violation of copyright. (I do not speak for my employer.)

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<alordofchaos@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110819905.809316.194850@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> No, no, no. Your rogue or other stealth specialist has a pouch full of
> rocks with continual flame on it. He throws the first one 80' in front
> of him down the dark corridor, moves forward 20' throws another one 80'
> in front of him (20' in front of the first stone), etc. When he gets
> to the first stone, he picks it up and throws it forward. When you get
> to caverns/rooms, "seed" the area with the rocks by scattering
> handfuls.
>
> (alternatively, have your Unseen Servant carry them, or put it on a
> Floating Disc in front of you; at 10th level, both spells last 10 hours
> and have a range of 50'.)
>

Or just replace the light source in a Bullseye lantern with the spell.

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Marshall wrote:

> <alordofchaos@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1110819905.809316.194850@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>>No, no, no. Your rogue or other stealth specialist has a pouch full of
>>rocks with continual flame on it. He throws the first one 80' in front
>>of him down the dark corridor, moves forward 20' throws another one 80'
>>in front of him (20' in front of the first stone), etc. When he gets
>>to the first stone, he picks it up and throws it forward. When you get
>>to caverns/rooms, "seed" the area with the rocks by scattering
>>handfuls.
>>
>>(alternatively, have your Unseen Servant carry them, or put it on a
>>Floating Disc in front of you; at 10th level, both spells last 10 hours
>>and have a range of 50'.)
>
> Or just replace the light source in a Bullseye lantern with the spell.

I've always wondered if that should actually work with magical light.
Does the torch create "light" in the area of effect, or emanate
light from its origin point. I'd assume the latter considering how it
interacts with the "dim lighting" and "low-light vision" rules.

On that note, anyone remember how far away a torch can be seen
(_not_ seen by) in various light conditions?

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firelock_ny@hotmail.com wrote:
> alordofchaos@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>No, no, no. Your rogue or other stealth specialist has a pouch full
>
> of
>
>>rocks with continual flame on it. He throws the first one 80' in
>
> front
>
>>of him down the dark corridor, moves forward 20' throws another one
>
> 80'
>
>>in front of him (20' in front of the first stone), etc. When he gets
>>to the first stone, he picks it up and throws it forward. When you
>
> get
>
>>to caverns/rooms, "seed" the area with the rocks by scattering
>>handfuls.
>
>
> Heh - reminds me of Electroflares in the old X-Com
> computer game. Really annoying to police those
> up every time, but otherwise you had to keep
> buying them.
>
> Walt Smith
> Firelock on DALNet
>

Electroflares? That what I used incendiary rounds for. Burn, baby, burn.

CH

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~consul <consul@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote:
> firelock_ny@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Heh - reminds me of Electroflares in the old X-Com
>> computer game. Really annoying to police those
>> up every time, but otherwise you had to keep
>> buying them.
>
> I did something similiar when I played Warlords. With the Fog of War on,
> we'd leave scouts peppered all over so that we could see the enemy from the
> map.

That one makes sense. That's (part of) what scouts are *for*.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13

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> In Eberron, it is. There are members of the Magewright NPC class who work as
> travelling lamplighters, going from town to town and making permanent lamps
> for the residents, and major cities are illuminated by Everbright Lanterns,
> essentially Continual Flame items but produced as Wondrous Items so that
> they can't be permanently dispelled. As for all adventurers carrying them,
> it's right there in the standard equipment list in the PHB - Everburning
> Torch, 110 gp.

Didn't say it wasn't easily available. Just think it shouldn't be
permanent.

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On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:34:11 +0000, Matt Frisch wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:06:41 -0800, Andrew James Alan Welty
> <andrew@cci-29palms.com> scribed into the ether:
>
>>Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
>>when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
>>Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
>>least.
>
> No it didn't. It's the exact same spell just with a changed name.

Nope. AD&D 2nd edition version used up the materials, AD&D version
didn't. Didn't have any material component in the AD&D version, also
range was different.

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"Andrew James Alan Welty" <andrew@cci-29palms.com> wrote in message
newsan.2005.03.15.21.45.51.727127@cci-29palms.com...
>> I personally wouldn't be opposed to a house rule that limits the
>> duration (say, to one month + <some amount per level> ) but only if the
>> material component (50 gp ruby) is dropped to something lower. It's
>> not exactly an overpowered spell; I just don't want parties leaving
>> trails of Continual Flame in the woods (which some people would do,
>> even at 50 gp per spell)
>
> That's all I was getting at, a limited duration for the spell. For
> myself, I think darkness should play more of a roll, this spell takes a
> lot of that away.

How so? It does not exactly illuminate a great distance.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

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On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:43:18 -0800, Andrew James Alan Welty
<andrew@cci-29palms.com> scribed into the ether:

>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:34:11 +0000, Matt Frisch wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:06:41 -0800, Andrew James Alan Welty
>> <andrew@cci-29palms.com> scribed into the ether:
>>
>>>Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
>>>when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
>>>Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
>>>least.
>>
>> No it didn't. It's the exact same spell just with a changed name.
>
>Nope. AD&D 2nd edition version used up the materials,

That's not quite the "old" version, however. It would be the "last"
version.

The "old" version is 1E, where nothing of the sort happened.

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Senator Blutarsky wrote:
> Alex Johnson wrote:
>
>>Andrew James Alan Welty wrote:
>>
>>>Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
>>>when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
>>>Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
>>>least. With a permanent duration most characters would carry around
>>>something with this cast on it, completely avoiding the need for any other
>>>light source (torches, lanterns, ect.) Could be used for street lights in
>>>cities as well...
>>
>>I don't see how it completely avoids the need for any other light
>>source. Our group of 10-13 level characters and our group of 6-8 level
>>characters both have continual flame light sources, but we only use them
>>in absolute emergencies. Normally we have daylight or sunrods. Take a
>>look...continual flame only has a 10' radius, while most encounters
>>happen more than 10' away. If you start out 10' from that fomorian
>>giant, you're screwed! Even against orcs, you won't be too happy with
>>10' of vision (as they skewer you with javelins from 60' away and you
>>can't even tell where they are to fight back).
>
>
> Nit: continual flame has a radius of 20 feet, and
> provides shadowy illumination to 40 feet.
>
> -Bluto

Hmmm. So it does. Our stinkin' DM is cheating us again. Our continual
flames only illuminate 10'.

Alex

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Andrew James Alan Welty wrote:
> Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is
permanent,
> when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old
Continual
> Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years
at
> least. With a permanent duration most characters would carry around
> something with this cast on it, completely avoiding the need for any
other
> light source (torches, lanterns, ect.) Could be used for street
lights in
> cities as well...

There is of course a big problem with using them to illuminate cities.

A quite skilled professional in D&D3.x land makes about [(+3 ability
+5 ranks + 2 synergy + 2 other synergy + 2 masterwork tools + 3 skill
focus + 10.5 die roll)/2]GP per week, or about 715 GP/year.

The average is closer to 377 GP/year (assuming no slack time or
vacations). Unskilled is 30 or so GP if they are stupid enough to use
the rate in the book (which I assume to be for unreliable vagrants,
aka adventurers or drug adicts), or 260 GP/year if they notice that
craft is usable untrained, and assistants get paid half their check
result per week.

Multiply those numbers by about $100 and you have reasonable pay rates
for the current USA (within a factor of 2 or so, and the errors are
in different directions).

Now imagine that the world was full of places you could sell a stolen
street light for ~$5,500, no questions asked.... (Does anyone ask where
your characters got all those second hand magic items and other loot?)

Imagine that policing was haphazard at best, that some people live
on the edge of starvation, and that you can live like a fairly rich
doctor or successful drug smuggler by stealing a streetlight a week
or less....

Imagine that some cities actually have thieves' guilds (OK my
imagination won't streach that far, mafias and organized fences yes,
but the classic fantasy theives' guild is nonsensical).

How long do YOU think the city will stay illuminated?

Streetlight: 50 GP material component, 60 GP level 2 spell, 60 GP
having a really heavy rock draged into town to cast it on, so the
whole assemblage won't "mysteriously" get up and walk away on its
own some foggy night.

DougL

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On 16 Mar 2005 09:25:53 -0800, "DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> The average is closer to 377 GP/year (assuming no slack time or
> vacations). Unskilled is 30 or so GP if they are stupid enough to use
> the rate in the book (which I assume to be for unreliable vagrants,
> aka adventurers or drug adicts), or 260 GP/year if they notice that
> craft is usable untrained, and assistants get paid half their check
> result per week.

I'd not use an untrained assistant - too unreliable, as they can't
take 10, and they'll fail quite often. A proper assistant has +9 in
the craft, probably from something like: 4 ranks + 3 skill focus + 2
MW tools = +9. If MW tools are too rich for you, find someone with
decent Int.

> Streetlight: 50 GP material component, 60 GP level 2 spell, 60 GP
> having a really heavy rock draged into town to cast it on, so the
> whole assemblage won't "mysteriously" get up and walk away on its
> own some foggy night.

Why do you imagine it will take three months' pay for a labourer to
move a rock?


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

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"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> you up next, work it out
now.

>
>"DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote in message
>news:1110993953.591469.204190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> Now imagine that the world was full of places you could sell a stolen
>> street light for ~$5,500, no questions asked.... (Does anyone ask where
>> your characters got all those second hand magic items and other loot?)
>>
>> Imagine that policing was haphazard at best, that some people live
>> on the edge of starvation, and that you can live like a fairly rich
>> doctor or successful drug smuggler by stealing a streetlight a week
>> or less....
>>
>You don't think they'll cast the spell on something distinctive, that would
>make it obvious where it came from?

You don't think that thieves guilds wouldn't commission and sell
identical, non-enchanted items in their cover storefronts to confuse
the issue?

Plausible deniability is everything... "No sir, that wasn't stolen.
I bought it from Guido's Lights and had Bruno, the mage on staff
enchant it. They'll back me up and here's my invoice."

>Would there really be a market for stolen streetlights?

Of course. There are markets for ANYTHING that can be stolen, and
since it was a relatively common item like a streetlight with a
relatively low GP cost to create new, the asking price for stolen
versions would probably be lower than creating a new light from
scratch.

The up front cost of each such item would be far cheaper in the long
run than continually purchasing new oil and/or candles and would cause
no work stoppages (or security risks if servants were allowed into
normally locked areas) for replacing burned down candles or refilling
lamps.

Bill
--
By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may eventually
get to be boss and work twelve hours a day. - Robert Frost

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Wildwood" <wildwood72@pipeline.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:ioui31ps8foboumrspcfvse4u5v0u9fqcq@4ax.com...
> "Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> you up next, work it out
> now.
>
> >
> >"DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote in message
> >news:1110993953.591469.204190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >>
> >> Now imagine that the world was full of places you could sell a stolen
> >> street light for ~$5,500, no questions asked.... (Does anyone ask where
> >> your characters got all those second hand magic items and other loot?)
> >>
> >> Imagine that policing was haphazard at best, that some people live
> >> on the edge of starvation, and that you can live like a fairly rich
> >> doctor or successful drug smuggler by stealing a streetlight a week
> >> or less....
> >>
> >You don't think they'll cast the spell on something distinctive, that
would
> >make it obvious where it came from?
>
> You don't think that thieves guilds wouldn't commission and sell
> identical, non-enchanted items in their cover storefronts to confuse
> the issue?
>
So they sell fake/stolen streetlights openly?

Geoff.

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"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> you up next, work it out
now.

>
>"Wildwood" <wildwood72@pipeline.com.invalid> wrote in message
>news:ioui31ps8foboumrspcfvse4u5v0u9fqcq@4ax.com...
>> "Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> you up next, work it out
>> now.
>>
>> >
>> >"DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote in message
>> >news:1110993953.591469.204190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Now imagine that the world was full of places you could sell a stolen
>> >> street light for ~$5,500, no questions asked.... (Does anyone ask where
>> >> your characters got all those second hand magic items and other loot?)
>> >>
>> >> Imagine that policing was haphazard at best, that some people live
>> >> on the edge of starvation, and that you can live like a fairly rich
>> >> doctor or successful drug smuggler by stealing a streetlight a week
>> >> or less....
>> >>
>> >You don't think they'll cast the spell on something distinctive, that
>would
>> >make it obvious where it came from?
>>
>> You don't think that thieves guilds wouldn't commission and sell
>> identical, non-enchanted items in their cover storefronts to confuse
>> the issue?
>>
>So they sell fake/stolen streetlights openly?
>

Probably, sold as "reproductions." Of course that also probably
depends on the local laws allowing questioning by magic and/or mind
reading, which would screw the whole thing up.

Bill
--
By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may eventually
get to be boss and work twelve hours a day. - Robert Frost

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Senator Blutarsky wrote:
> DougL wrote:
> >
> > Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > >
> > > I'd not use an untrained assistant - too unreliable, as they
can't
> > > take 10, and they'll fail quite often. A proper assistant has +9
in
> > > the craft, probably from something like: 4 ranks + 3 skill focus
+ 2
> > > MW tools = +9. If MW tools are too rich for you, find someone
with
> > > decent Int.
> >
> > Irrelevant, the rules for Craft say you can get paid half your
> > check result for assisting and that it can be used untrained.
>
> Learn to read and interpret rules correctly before
> posting such nonsense.

The rules are quite clear. The skill is usable untrained and
"You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about
half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work."

There is no real ambiguity. You can roll a check with no ranks in
the skill, you earn about half your check result per week.

There is NOTHING that says you need to actually have the skill.

Usable untrained means that anyone can do it WITHOUT training!

DougL

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

DougL wrote:
>
> Senator Blutarsky wrote:
> > DougL wrote:
> > >
> > > Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'd not use an untrained assistant - too unreliable, as they
> can't
> > > > take 10, and they'll fail quite often. A proper assistant has +9
> in
> > > > the craft, probably from something like: 4 ranks + 3 skill focus
> + 2
> > > > MW tools = +9. If MW tools are too rich for you, find someone
> with
> > > > decent Int.
> > >
> > > Irrelevant, the rules for Craft say you can get paid half your
> > > check result for assisting and that it can be used untrained.
> >
> > Learn to read and interpret rules correctly before
> > posting such nonsense.
>
> The rules are quite clear.

Yes, they are. Too bad you still don't UNDERSTAND
them.

> The skill is usable untrained and
> "You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about
> half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work."

That's the *general* rule, yes. Now, keep reading:

"(Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of
1 silver piece per day.)"

That's the *specific* rule.

Thus, if you are an untrained assistant, you earn an
average of 1 silver piece per day, just like any other
untrained laborer (see DMG p.105).

> There is no real ambiguity. You can roll a check with no ranks in
> the skill, you earn about half your check result per week.

I agree there is no ambiguity. You can roll a check
with no ranks in the skill. Also, *if* you are trained
in the skill, you can earn about half your check result
per week; otherwise, 1 sp per day.

-Bluto

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In article <roam315ivfs83vfulvibqf317l26d3elsb@4ax.com>,
Jim Davies <jim@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org> wrote:
>"Geoff Watson" <geoffwatson@pacific.net.au> typed:
>
>>You don't think they'll cast the spell on something distinctive, that would
>>make it obvious where it came from?
>
>The thief could just take an axe and chop the glowing bit off the
>distinctive bit, then bolt it onto something else and add a bit of
>paint.
>
>This raises the question of how much of the original item you need to
>retain the magic. If you were to cast the spell on a house, would you
>need to steal the whole house, the brick or just a fragment of the
>brick?

Casting the spell on a delecate glass focus then putting it in a tamper
resistant housing cemented into a wall could go a long way making it
hard to steal.
--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.