AMD approved power supplies

Guest · Jun 25, 2001

I'm fairly new to PC hardware (mostly a Mac person), and am curious as to the importance of AMD approval of power supplies. Currently the type of compuer I'm looking at isn't going to have more than 4 IDE devices, FDD, Duron 800, 2 PCI cards. I'm pretty sure that a 300w PS would do the trick - I'm just not sure of the necessity of an AMD approved PS.
Any help is appreciated.

khha4113 · Jun 25, 2001

<A HREF="http://www.cluboc.net/reviews/cpu/amd/thunderbird_1400/page3.htm" target="_new">http://www.cluboc.net/reviews/cpu/amd/thunderbird_1400/page3.htm</A>

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FatBurger · Jun 25, 2001

Any brand of 300w PSU should be ok.

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Apple? Macintosh? What are these strange words you speak?

jlbigguy · Jun 25, 2001

There is a little more to it then just the supplied wattage.

Current TBirds generate a lot of heat (this may change with Palomino), and this heat will "gather" between the power supply and the CPU. An AMD approved supply will have air vents on the bottom of the supply (directly above the CPU) to exhaust this hot air. Can't cool the CPU with hot air!

This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.

Arrow · Jun 25, 2001

I would absolutely make sure that it's on their list before I use it.

Rob
Please visit <A HREF="http://www.ncix.com/canada/index.cfm?affiliateid=319048" target="_new">http://www.ncix.com/canada/index.cfm?affiliateid=319048</A>

FatBurger · Jun 25, 2001

I agree, but his computer isn't going to be using very much power.

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Apple? Macintosh? What are these strange words you speak?

jlbigguy · Jun 25, 2001

Doesn't matter how much power the system uses. The heat generated by the processor will be trapped by the power supply if it does not have vents on the bottom. Add to this heat the heat from the video card (just below the processor), and the heat from the motherboard voltage regulators (in the vicinity of the CPU in most MB's), and you have a lot of heat that must be removed from the box. If not, it just sits around the processor, and can raise CPU temperatures considerably.

Even with a front intake fan, and a rear exhaust fan (at the CPU height), with an AMD approved supply, if I remove the side panel of my case, I can feel the heat that is "pooled" around the processor.

This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.

FatBurger · Jun 26, 2001

Oops, you're right. I didn't read your post thoroughly enough. I thought you were talking about CPU power consumption, not heat.
Heat off the CPU would change with the HSF too, which would give you more freedom when choosing a PSU.

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Apple? Macintosh? What are these strange words you speak?

Toejam31 · Jun 26, 2001

I would recommend a dual-fan PSU like a Leadman or an Enermax. That will help keep your system cool.

300 watts might sound like a lot ... but you might end up wishing that you had gotten something more powerful if later on you wish to add additional components. There's just not a big difference in price between 300, 350, and 400 watt PSU's ... so why not plan ahead? It's always a good rule of thunb to add up the needed wattage for all your components, and then to buy a PSU that comfortably handles the power requirements at 70% or below the rated capacity. That way you'll get good, clean power, with a minimum of heat, and you'll never have to worry about power-related issues. It never hurts to have a little redundancy.

IMHO ... AVOID Antec. Their quality control has been slipping, as of late.

Toejam31

P.S. And FatBurger, for your information ... all makes and models of PSU's are not the same. There are some 200 watt PSU's that due to their construction, will out-perform a 300 watt PSU.

My Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847</A>

kanute · Jun 26, 2001

I would have to agree with Toejam and reccomend a dual fan PSU. They help out in cooling your CPU alot. The enermax PSU are great. They are quiet, and of very high quality. I have the 431 watt flavor, but I think they make a 350 as well. Plus, always remember just since you don't need the power doesn't need you won't want it down the line.

That oughta void your warrenty!

Guest · Jun 26, 2001

I like the dual fan ATX power supplies too. I have been trying to find out what makes a power supply "AMD Approved" and it appears that one of the requirements for the 1.4 GHz CPU is a minimum combined power rating of at least 180watts between the 3.3 and 5 VDC rails. I don't know what the ratio would be for this, I wish I did, I mean, how much percent of that 180W is for the 5 VDC, and how much for the 3.3 VDC? I don't think that I can assume 50/50.

It seems that the case is some 250W power supplies will meet this just fine, even some 200W supplies as long as the current capability is mostly in the 3.3 and 5 VDC rails with very little in the 12 VDC outputs.

I don't know how power supplies are rated, for total input power or total output power? If it is input wattage then efficiency plays a part in this. I am sure that a lower wattage power supply that is lightly loaded would probably be ok for an average gamer with just one HD and a power capability of 250 watts. However, you start running a fast CPU and adding more stuff, it becomes more criticle due to the increased current requirements. Adding a GeForce video card really sucks down the current some too.

I have a HiVision 300W power supply that came with one of the cases I am using for my Athlon 1.33 and Geforce video card with one ordinary CDROM and I am getting occasional alarms that my 3.3 VDC source is sagging down to 2.8 VDC! I am replacing that power supply with a rather expensive Enermax 550W power supply that will probably never become obsolete, well, not for many years I hope. I posted this fact over on www.arstechnica.com and someone was sick over the idea of my doing this believing that I thought I needed that much. I DONT, I JUST LIKE IT!

Guest · Jun 26, 2001

So, in summary, from what I understand, the 300W PS would be more than enough for what I intend to start the computer off with (duron 800, one HD, CD, FDD, NIC, Geforce2MX), but if I were to add a burner, second HD, and push the K7VZA to its limit of (I believe) Athlon 1.4 ghz, then the PS and its quality would become more crucial.
I am looking at some of the peripherals I already have, and they only read things like "12V 0.29A" instead of the number of watts - is it accurate that amps times volts equal watts, or did I mislearn that?
Thanks for your guys' help so far.

khha4113 · Jun 26, 2001

I have an Antec PP-303X 300W and it works great with my A7V133 and TB 1000@1200MHz (Dualboot Win200Pro & Win98).
Components including IBM 60GXP ATA100 40G, Quantum Fireball+ ATA66 27G. I also have 2 SCSI HDs ( Quantum Atlas III LVD U2W HD 18.3G and IBM Ultrastar LVD U2W HD 4.3G) although I put them in HD enclosure (no space in my Enlight 7237 case).
Pioneer DVD-116, Yamaha burner CRW8424S Ultra SCSI CDRW and Iomega ATAPI Zip250 drive.
256MB Crucial Clk2 PC-133.
Adaptec AHA-2940U2W SCSI controller.
Leadtek Winfast Geforce2 Pro GTS video card.
Linksys 10/100TX NIC.
Creative Soundblaster Live! value sound card
Creative Flash56 PCI Winmodem.

Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.

CALV · Jun 26, 2001

as to weather or not the heat from the CPU will be trapped between the PSU has more to do with the case design than anything, mine for example, has 2 fans imediatly above the CPU, adn the power supply is above them. A lot of cases DO have the psu immediatly above the cpu which can cause probs, but remember- the PSU fan(s) is/are for cooling the PSU, and for cooling the PSU only, adequate air circulation through the case is essential.

Next time you wave - use all your fingers

Toejam31 · Jun 26, 2001

This is a typical response from someone on this board. If an attempt is made to give a new PC user some good advice, along will come someone who will make an effort to cloud the issue ... and state, "But it works great on my system!"

I'm getting a little tired of comments like this. For some reason, some folks that come to this forum like to run their computers overclocked to amazing speeds, and take pride that they do so with PSU's that are barely adequate. "I've got a Duron 700MHz overclocked to 1.9GHz, a water block made from the radiator of a '79 Pinto feeding into a 50 gallon drum of water in the corner, 14 peripherals, and a fifty watt PSU ... the whole thing running at -20C. And it's great!".

Hmmm ... if you say so.

I think that there's "good" advice ... and on the other side of the coin, someone just talking to hear their lips flap. Or in this case, typing to watch your fingers dexterously dart across the keys.

khha4113. Sir. Consider yourself lucky that your Antec 300watt PSU works well for you. But don't hold your breath, assuming that it is sufficient for your needs, and that it works "great". You've got a ton of stuff in that system.

Have you ever taken the time to add up the power requirements for all those peripherals, and see how often that Antec is running at full load? How about when the computer first boots, which is a critical time for a PSU, due to the initial heavy demand?

You might be surprised to discover that what many people think are software-related issues, such as blue screens and crashes, are nothing more than an overloaded PSU responding to demands that regularly exceed the rated specifications.

Is there something I'm missing? Is it particularly macho to try and run a system with an inadequate PSU? Is it an unwritten rule by hardcore overclocker's to attempt to run a computer off three AAA batteries? Wondering minds want to know. Mine does, anyway.

As a normal matter-of-course, I regularly install heavy-duty PSU's in any machine I build, generally, at 400watts or better. The power requirements for newer machines are going up and up, and installing a PSU that handles the system requirements with a safe margin of error doesn't seem like overkill to me ... but a good business practice. I want the machines I assemble to be as trouble-free as possible, and that saves my friends and customers money in the long run. I want them to have a good experience with their computer(s) ... not spend time screaming and cussing when the computer locks up in the middle of a game.

While the Antec 300watt seems to be slightly more stable than it's larger cousin, the 400watt (which I have discovered often has great difficulty with SCSI controllers) ... I think that you are running on borrowed time. And that's not great ... nor a good basis for advice to someone who is attempting to learn something.

I wish you luck ... but don't come crying in this direction when that Antec gives out and damages some of your expensive components in the process.

I just don't get it. If you are willing to put cash into building a computer with top-notch components that will run like a bat-out-of-hell ... why insist on running the whole thing with a PSU that has an above-average failure rate? Why not cool off the system with a dual-fan PSU, with enough power to avoid any future problems? That just seems like common sense to me. Or like I said, am I missing something when it comes to the overclocker's mentality? Enlighten me, dude.

There's a reason that many OEM systems come pre-installed with Antec PSU's. They are cheap pieces of crap ... and not meant to last. After all, there's no compelling reason to upgrade if your current machine can run the majority of the software on the market, and runs like a dream for years on end. You catch my drift?

It's obvious that you are a real computer enthusiast. Why not get up to speed about PSU's with the same persistence that you learned about how to overclock that processor? Face it ... you wouldn't turn up your nose at a $150.00 GeForce3 ... and if you had one, it's likely that you would push it to the limit, looking for extra performance. So why insist on advising people to use a cheap $40.00 PSU that is anything but performance-oriented? That just makes no sense to me.

A high-performance 550watt Enermax with dual ball-bearing fans will run you about $160.00. It will increase the air flow in your case, and will provide adequate power for almost any occasion. What's wrong with that, exactly?

Toejam31

My Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847</A>

jlbigguy · Jun 26, 2001

"but remember- the PSU fan(s) is/are for cooling the PSU, and for cooling the PSU only, adequate air circulation through the case is essential."

Not in an AMD system. The power supply is also tasked with removing the heat produced by the CPU. See the link to AMD's system cooling specifications.

<A HREF="http://www.amd.com/products/cpg/athlon/pdf/cooling_guide.pdf" target="_new">http://www.amd.com/products/cpg/athlon/pdf/cooling_guide.pdf</A>

This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.

CALV · Jun 26, 2001

Thanks for that, maybe I should keep myself more up to date, I suppose thats where the "AMD APPROVED" bit comes from,back to the original post, if your PSU ISNT like the ones in the picture, with the vents situated by the CPU (I dont think mine is but Im at work so cant check), as long as you have adequate case ventilation I shouldnt have thought there would be a problem, however now I have looked at the link that jlbgguy kindly posted, I would be tempted to look for this type of PSU design if possible.

Next time you wave - use all your fingers

FatBurger · Jun 26, 2001

And FatBurger, for your information ... all makes and models of PSU's are not the same

Obviously, I know that. But with what he has, any 300w PSU should suffice. That's exactly what I said.

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Apple? Macintosh? What are these strange words you speak?

FatBurger · Jun 26, 2001

BTW, where can I find a list of how much power my components use?

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Apple? Macintosh? What are these strange words you speak?

khha4113 · Jun 26, 2001

This is a typical response from someone on this board. If an attempt is made to give a new PC user some good advice, along will come someone who will make an effort to cloud the issue ... and state, "But it works great on my system!"

I speak from my own experiences and I don't try to "cloud the issue". I had 2 of them and they have never given any problem related to power supply. I don't know if you have problem with Antec power supplies but the fact is even AMD approves Antec PS from its list. Read it for yourself (Antec PP-303X and PP-403X).
<A HREF="http://www1.amd.com/athlon/power" target="_new">AMD Athlon™ Processor Recommended Power Supplies</A>
PP-303X up to 900MHz and PP-403X is up to 1400MHz.

Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.

khha4113 · Jun 26, 2001

Have you ever taken the time to add up the power requirements for all those peripherals, and see how often that Antec is running at full load? How about when the computer first boots, which is a critical time for a PSU, due to the initial heavy demand?

Believe me I do.

You might be surprised to discover that what many people think are software-related issues, such as blue screens and crashes, are nothing more than an overloaded PSU responding to demands that regularly exceed the rated specifications.

I haven't experienced those.

While the Antec 300watt seems to be slightly more stable than it's larger cousin, the 400watt (which I have discovered often has great difficulty with SCSI controllers) ... I think that you are running on borrowed time. And that's not great ... nor a good basis for advice to someone who is attempting to learn something.

I haven't experienced them. I don't advice him to buy Antec PS, I just spoke with my own experience.

I just don't get it. If you are willing to put cash into building a computer with top-notch components that will run like a bat-out-of-hell ... why insist on running the whole thing with a PSU that has an above-average failure rate? Why not cool off the system with a dual-fan PSU, with enough power to avoid any future problems? That just seems like common sense to me. Or like I said, am I missing something when it comes to the overclocker's mentality? Enlighten me, dude.

I didn't come here to argue with you. My Antec 300W was from when I start with TB 700MHz a year ago, and for your question if I ever run at full load is YES, several times.
On a side note if you ever noticed that Enermax is not on AMD approved PS list?

Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.

khha4113 · Jun 26, 2001

While the Antec 300watt seems to be slightly more stable than it's larger cousin, the 400watt (which I have discovered often has great difficulty with SCSI controllers) ... I think that you are running on borrowed time. And that's not great ... nor a good basis for advice to someone who is attempting to learn something.

My point is if he wants to run Duron 800 with as much as 2 HDs, Geforce2, CD (or DVD) and CD Burner, 300W is more than enough.

I wish you luck ... but don't come crying in this direction when that Antec gives out and damages some of your expensive components in the process.

I've been running them for almost a year (7/2000), and although I'm not knowledgeable but I believe I can manage that and thanks.

Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.

Toejam31 · Jun 27, 2001

Alright, Sir ... here's my response.

First, I don't want an argument, either. But it looked like you were starting one to me. That's what happens when thoughts don't translate well on the screen.

Secondly, it's obvious that I put you on the defensive. My profound apologies. I should know better.

With that said, I would like to make a couple of comments. Nothing is intended but to offer educational information. If you wish to disagree with me, go ahead ... you won't get flamed again by me for having an opinion. But I'd like you to listen to what I have to say, first ... if you don't mind.

I build and repair systems for a living. I've seen a lot of PSU's. Antec PSU's have the highest failure rate of any that I've installed in my shop. I mentioned the 400watt, specifically, because these are the ones that fail most often. I've come to believe that the efficiency level pasted on the side must be a misprint.

I'm aware that Antec PSU's are on the AMD-recommended list. But I think that list is just a general rule-of thumb, and I have found that the real-world requirements of newer systems often exceeds the recommended specifications. Try to look at it this way. If you buy a software program, and the minimum requirements are a 300Mhz processor, and 32MB of RAM ... and this happens to be the exact specifications of your system, then the program might run ... but usually not very well. And sometimes, not at all.

That's exactly how I view the AMD-recommended list. Most of the PSU's listed are the bare minimum. They will work, most of the time, but not necessarily at an optimal level. I really don't think that anything was taken in account beyond getting the computer booted up with a minimum of peripherals, such as one hard drive, a single stick of memory, a low-end video card, and the processor. Heck, when the list came out ... GeForce256 cards were just beginning to hit the market. In fact, unless my memory is incorrect, I believe the list might have preceded that video card. (And the GF256 needed a lot of juice.)

Yes ... I've noticed in the past that Enermax PSU's are not on the list. Why? Good question. They are considered by some to be the best on the market. Neither are Leadman PSU's, which are generally excellent in quality, and competitive in price.

All this really tells me is that the list is sadly incomplete. And so, I rely on my own judgement ... which I consider to be a better use of my experience than trusting an outdated web page.

You mentioned that you had taken the time to add up the power requirements for your system. Pardon me, (and again, I don't mean to get into an argument) ... but it is kinda obvious that you have not done this. Or that you don't really understand how a PSU is designed, or how the PSU delivers current to the different peripherals. Or that your math is wrong.

Part of the reason I am sure of this is because you also mentioned running your PSU at full load, and said that it happened several times.

Um ... that's not good. Your PSU should not be running at full load, and definitely not on a regular basis.

In case there was some confusion by what I meant ... I didn't mean running your system at full load. I was talking about the PSU. Just the PSU. And any PSU that regularly hits a full load will eventually crap out on you. Unfortunately, some PSU's that fail have a tendency to send a high level of current through the system at the moment of "death" ... and that can do some damage; especially to a video card, the memory, a hard drive, and a SCSI controller. And the Antec PSU's are bad for doing just that.

I won't get into it any more than that ... but I highly suggest that you do some research on the subject and become better informed. I'm not saying this to be insulting. That is not my intent. I'm saying it because I think it would be a good idea.

To get you started, here is a link that will help:

<A HREF="http://www.gamepc.com/reviews/hardware_review.asp?review=psroundup&page=1&mscssid=&tp=" target="_new">http://www.gamepc.com/reviews/hardware_review.asp?review=psroundup&page=1&mscssid=&tp=</A>

Feel free to respond again, and good luck with your computer.

Toejam31

My Rig: <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847</A>

lhgpoobaa · Jun 27, 2001

lol mr toejam!
>> "...79' Pinto feeding into a 50 gallon drum..."

i think the same goes for FANS
some overclocking nuts gloat about having a 6700rmp VolcanoII with 4 supa-large case fans.
That may indeed be cool & well ventilated, but i doubt i would want to sit in the same room with that noisy monster beside me!
They kinda forget that having a system that DOESNT sound like a turbojet is ALSO a desirable outcome.

me personally, my case sits beside the screen on my desk. im getting my fop32-1 reseated minus the thermal pad, ONE case fan installed then getting one or both side pannels covered with sound absorbing foam.

ditto to the PSU. i said no to the generic 300 watter and shelled out a few or bucks for something a bit better and more reliable.
i could tell u the type & brand, but my Hamster has hidden my pocket flashlight!

Hamsterman

My Hamster doesnt like sarcasm. He may very well bite you in your hard to reach places!

khha4113 · Jun 27, 2001

Thanks for your link. I found it's very interesting and educated. On my previous post, you might overlook when you saw I had a lot stuff in my system, but actually, 2 of my SCSI HDs are stored in seperate case (Data Enclosure which has it own Power supply, mine is 80W). So my Antec PS only supplies for my mobo and CPU, 2 of my IDE HD, DVD and CD Burner and my PCIs that I think it'd be well-capable. On other hand, I'd been considered upgrading to a 400W PS in furure. Thanks. BTW, here is my Antec specs.
<A HREF="http://www.antec-inc.com/product/powers/p303x_spe.html" target="_new">http://www.antec-inc.com/product/powers/p303x_spe.html</A>

Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.

AMD approved power supplies

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