Barbarian weapon suggestions?

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:

> So now I have:
>
> +0 Cleaver
> +0 Stormbringer
> +? Mjollnir, cursed
> +? Excalibur, cursed
> +0 Dragonsbane
>
> Truly an embarrasment of riches. But I am at a loss as to which weapon
> I should use. Cleaver seems to do some nice damage. Stormbringer
> doesn't do so much damage, but is more fun. :-) Dragonsbane not so
> great, but two-weaponable. Mojo does kick-butt damage, but is cursed
> and I'm not sure of the enchantment.
>
> My gut feeling is to go with Mojo, since barbarians can get war hammer
> up to Expert level. I *think* that's a two-handed skill so no
> two-weaponing with Stormy or DB. Another option is to two-weapon Stormy
> and some other non-artifact weapon which I don't yet have. Or to stick
> with Cleaver.

I'm kind of partial to Excalibur, especially if I don't already have
automatic searching. It does decent damage, too, and a helping of
level-drain resistance on the side.

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking <eaolson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ooog the chaotic Barbarian currently has a plethora of artifact weapons.
> This is after finding a mamby-pamby lawful priest in the Mines,
> working up the courage and the HP to take him on, doing so, sacrificing
> an entire mountain of corpses to Set, using up an entire bag of tricks,
> accidentally ticking off the Minestown guards, sacrificing *them* to
> Set, summoning Jubilex, summoning Yeenoghu, and getting exactly
> diddly-point-squat from Set.

> I gave up on that temple, then found one to Set on level 12 and started
> sacrificing away. First corpse, BAM, Cleaver. Next, BAM, Stormbringer.
> Popping down to the next level only to find a bones level with
> Mjollnir *and* Excalibur (thank you Missy25, whoever you are). Popped
> back up to discover them both cursed (naturally) and to accidentally
> sacrifice and get Dragonsbane. So now I have:

> +0 Cleaver
> +0 Stormbringer
> +? Mjollnir, cursed
> +? Excalibur, cursed
> +0 Dragonsbane

> Truly an embarrasment of riches. But I am at a loss as to which weapon
> I should use. Cleaver seems to do some nice damage. Stormbringer
> doesn't do so much damage, but is more fun. :-) Dragonsbane not so
> great, but two-weaponable. Mojo does kick-butt damage, but is cursed
> and I'm not sure of the enchantment.

> My gut feeling is to go with Mojo, since barbarians can get war hammer
> up to Expert level. I *think* that's a two-handed skill so no
> two-weaponing with Stormy or DB. Another option is to two-weapon Stormy
> and some other non-artifact weapon which I don't yet have. Or to stick
> with Cleaver.

> Any suggestions?

Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
like level drain and silver damage.

Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM

Unfortunately, I don't think you can use Mojo because it's not aligned.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:
> So now I have:
>
> +0 Cleaver
> +0 Stormbringer
> +? Mjollnir, cursed
> +? Excalibur, cursed
> +0 Dragonsbane
>
> Truly an embarrasment of riches. But I am at a loss as to which weapon
> I should use. Cleaver seems to do some nice damage. Stormbringer
> doesn't do so much damage, but is more fun. :-) Dragonsbane not so
> great, but two-weaponable. Mojo does kick-butt damage, but is cursed
> and I'm not sure of the enchantment.

In a current game I got Cleaver (now +6 and expert) and then Frostbrand.
At this stage Cleaver is very effective, so I abstained from enchanting
Frostbrand (currently +1) and use Cleaver, also for roleplaying reason.

With both of the other interesting swords, Stormbringer and Excalibur
(both having nice properties!)

, you can only get to skilled. You may
want to first identify the enchantment of Excalibur and decide then.

Mjollnir is also nice, of course. All the first four weapons are basically
a choice to go with. Do you plan to use a shield (for reflection)?

> My gut feeling is to go with Mojo, since barbarians can get war hammer
> up to Expert level. I *think* that's a two-handed skill so no

???

> two-weaponing with Stormy or DB. Another option is to two-weapon Stormy
> and some other non-artifact weapon which I don't yet have. Or to stick
> with Cleaver.

With the exception of Cleaver none of these artifact weapons are two-handed.

> Any suggestions?

I'd take all the four with me, and switch if necessary. Enchant Cleaver
_or_ Mjollnir first and enhance your weapon proficiency in it to become
expert, then enchant and enhance one of the other swords (IMO Excalibur,
then Stormy).

Yours is the final decision.

Janis

In my current game the level drain occurred to me quite often but was
never a problem since the critter died quite fast and restored my level.
So the level drain protection is currently not relevant (for me). Neither
is the searching property since I have a ring.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

anon wrote:
> Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
> sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
> like level drain and silver damage.
>
> Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
> Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM
>
> Unfortunately, I don't think you can use Mojo because it's not aligned.

Unfortunately, silver sabers are fairly rare. I often don't find one
even by the time I get to the castle, and often wind up wishing for one.

Cleaver actually does some pretty good damage for a single weapon. Mojo
beats it a bit, and using it is no problem, if you don't mind getting
blasted when you pick it up, or switch to it as a primary weapon.

Ooog the Barbarian, however, met his maker at the pointy end of a
captain's voulge in Fort Ludios.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:
<snip>
>
> +0 Cleaver
> +0 Stormbringer
> +? Mjollnir, cursed
> +? Excalibur, cursed
> +0 Dragonsbane
<snip>

My pick would have been either Excalibur or Stormy with an off hand
weapon (Prefarably silver saber, but it doesn't really have to
be...silver dagger does almost as well once you enchant it up to
+6-7ish and get your strength to max, or plain old longsword will do).


-K

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:23:16 GMT
Eric the Viking <eaolson@gmail.com> wrote:
>Unfortunately, silver sabers are fairly rare. I often don't find one
>even by the time I get to the castle, and often wind up wishing for one.

I usually polypile for them. you can also get (S) silver long swords, which IMHO are better.

>Cleaver actually does some pretty good damage for a single weapon. Mojo
>beats it a bit, and using it is no problem, if you don't mind getting
>blasted when you pick it up, or switch to it as a primary weapon.

Mojo is nice... but stormbringer is better.

>Ooog the Barbarian, however, met his maker at the pointy end of a
>captain's voulge in Fort Ludios.

I have died there (TM)*




(not really trademarked, but would make a nice shirt:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| | |
| | ------------ |
-------+-- | | |
| }}}}}}} }}}}}}} | | |
| }-----} }-----} --|--|-- | |
--- }| |}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}| |} | | |
| }--------------------------------} | | |
| }}}|^ ^^ ^ ^^^ ^| |}}} - | |
------- }| ^ ^^ ^ | |} | | |
| | }| ^ ^^ ^^ | \ |} | | |
| + }}}|^ ^ ^ ^ | |}}} - | |
| | }--------------------------------} | | |
| | }| |}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}| |} | | |
| ------ }-----} }-----} --+--+-- | |
| | ...| }}}}}}} }}}}}}} | | |
| | .^.| | | |
----------- ------------ |
| |
----------------------------------------------------------------
I have died there...

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

noah bedford wrote:
> On 11 Jul 2005 07:23:13 -0700
> "Kremti" <kremti@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >My pick would have been either Excalibur or Stormy with an off hand
> >weapon (Prefarably silver saber, but it doesn't really have to
> >be...silver dagger does almost as well once you enchant it up to
> >+6-7ish and get your strength to max, or plain old longsword will do).
>
> Or a silver longsword (S)

Except that in you can two-weapon two artifact weapons. In that
case I might as well go both Excalibur AND Stormy.

-K

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:
> anon wrote:
>
> > Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
> > sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
> > like level drain and silver damage.

Cleaver's bonus isn't doubled but it is large. So it
is junk only when compared to a highly enchanted
artifact that does double it's damage.

> > Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
> > Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM

Do not underestimate the level draining feature of Stormy.
It gives fewer insta-kills but in a knock-down drag-out
fight with a large powerfull monster level drain makes a
huge difference.

> > Unfortunately, I don't think you can use Mojo because it's not aligned.

Not an issue once it has been uncursed.

> Unfortunately, silver sabers are fairly rare. I often don't find one
> even by the time I get to the castle, and often wind up wishing for one.

Where's your chaotic spirit? ;^) The watch captain and
soldier captains have 50-50 long sword or silver saber.
If you don't get one in the mines, by the time you've
completed the Castle you should have been left one in the
will of an unexpecting but cooperative captain.

> Ooog the Barbarian, however, met his maker at the pointy end of a
> captain's voulge in Fort Ludios.

I often leave Ludios several times before it empties.
It is also very important to get to the space near the
main door before the horde of soldiers arrive. Like
the movie "300 Spartans", find a narrow point and it is
possible to defeat a huge army one soldier at a time.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> [...] imperial cubic libraries of congress?
^^^^^^^^
Have the British finally re-conquered Washington?

Or should that be "New Liverpool"?

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 11 Jul 2005 07:23:13 -0700
"Kremti" <kremti@gmail.com> wrote:

>My pick would have been either Excalibur or Stormy with an off hand
>weapon (Prefarably silver saber, but it doesn't really have to
>be...silver dagger does almost as well once you enchant it up to
>+6-7ish and get your strength to max, or plain old longsword will do).

Or a silver longsword (S)

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 11 Jul 2005 09:37:35 -0700
"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Do not underestimate the level draining feature of Stormy.
>It gives fewer insta-kills but in a knock-down drag-out
>fight with a large powerfull monster level drain makes a
>huge difference.

But as said in an earlier thread, most biggys are level drain resistant.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

>Cyde Weys wrote:
>
>
>
>>[...] imperial cubic libraries of congress?
>>
>>
> ^^^^^^^^
>Have the British finally re-conquered Washington?
>
>Or should that be "New Liverpool"?
>
>
Lately, you'd be hard pressed to find a difference between them.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

noah bedford wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> >Do not underestimate the level draining feature of Stormy.
> >It gives fewer insta-kills but in a knock-down drag-out
> >fight with a large powerfull monster level drain makes a
> >huge difference.
>
> But as said in an earlier thread, most biggys are level drain resistant.

Numerous nasties are not resistant to level drain.

For those that are resistant most are suseptible to
silver. That's why I also gave suggestions on how
to get non-artifact silver sabers. Doing twoweapon
with Stormy and a silver saber handles most of the
issues. Making them both +5 or better, maxing out
your skill level in both and also in twoweapon is
important as well.

There are further problems with two handed weapons
that haven't been discussed in this thread so far.
Once you regularly face magic users and even more so
once you have the Amulet, wielding a cursed two handed
weapon is a serious problem. Having both hands
welded to your weapon means there are a lot of
activities that you can't do.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:
> Ooog the Barbarian, however, met his maker at the pointy end of a
> captain's voulge in Fort Ludios.

The victim of a thrown potion of paralyis, perhaps?

I don't usually get into HP trouble with guards, especially as a
barbarian.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 13 Jul 2005 09:54:18 -0700
"Zwanth" <zwanth@sunflower.com> wrote:

>The victim of a thrown potion of paralyis, perhaps?

And I never get in trouble with potions, because I spend most of my time as part of the wall.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Zwanth wrote:
> The victim of a thrown potion of paralyis, perhaps?
>
> I don't usually get into HP trouble with guards, especially as a
> barbarian.

The guards were no problem. The captain, I think, had sped himself up
somehow (wand, potion) and seemed very fast.

I think after killing about a battalion of soldiers, I got a bit cocky
and just kept slashing at him, rather than taking more drastic measures.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

anon wrote:
> Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
> sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
> like level drain and silver damage.
>
> Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
> Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM

After looking at some of the numbers in the various spoilers, I think
it's a bit more complicated than that. Looking only at the average damage:

SAVG LAVG
Cleaver: 10.5 12
Stormy/sabre combo: 11 10.5

This ignores Stormy's level drain and additional silver damage. If I
understand level drain correctly, that would add an additional 4.5
damage to the above. Does that happen every hit?

But it's a bit more complicated. In Ooog's next incarnation, I was
two-weaponing Stormy and some other sword, and noticed that I wasn't
doing so well in combat. I would still plow through pretty much
everything, but it seemed to take longer than with Cleaver.

When using the two-weapon skill, the to-hit probablity takes the lower
of your primary weapon skill and your two-weapon skill as a modifier.
Since barbarians can only get to basic in 2weap, that means they start
out at a whopping -7 penalty, raised to an average -4 because of
Stormy's +d5 to hit. Cleaver gives an average +2 to hit on top of an
expert's +3. So even though the damage in the combo meal is
comparable's, or slightly better than, Cleaver's, it's hard to hit with
the two weapons.

So from now on, I'm sticking with Cleaver until I have the resources to
up the enchantments on the weapons.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:
> anon wrote:
> > Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
> > sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
> > like level drain and silver damage.
>
> > Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
> > Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM
>
> After looking at some of the numbers in the various spoilers, I think
> it's a bit more complicated than that. Looking only at the average damage:
>
> SAVG LAVG
> Cleaver: 10.5 12
> Stormy/sabre combo: 11 10.5
>
> This ignores Stormy's level drain and additional silver damage. If I
> understand level drain correctly, that would add an additional 4.5
> damage to the above. Does that happen every hit?

Every hit with Stormy drains a level from any monster not
resistant to level drain. A few of the most powerfull
monsters are the few that are immune. The 4.5 is an
average itself. The damage is draining a level and for
a monster whose max-HP to XP-level ratio is more than
4.5 they lose more than 4.5, lower ratios lose less.

> But it's a bit more complicated. In Ooog's next incarnation, I was
> two-weaponing Stormy and some other sword, and noticed that I wasn't
> doing so well in combat. I would still plow through pretty much
> everything, but it seemed to take longer than with Cleaver.

Maxed luck combined with maxxed skill means never
missing. How do you manage to get your weapons up
to +5 without maxxed luck and skill? Maxxed luck
should happen on the way up from mines end. For a
combat wombat maxxed skill the same.

> When using the two-weapon skill, the to-hit probablity takes the lower
> of your primary weapon skill and your two-weapon skill as a modifier.
> Since barbarians can only get to basic in 2weap, that means they start
> out at a whopping -7 penalty, raised to an average -4 because of
> Stormy's +d5 to hit. Cleaver gives an average +2 to hit on top of an
> expert's +3. So even though the damage in the combo meal is
> comparable's, or slightly better than, Cleaver's, it's hard to hit with
> the two weapons.
>
> So from now on, I'm sticking with Cleaver until I have the resources to
> up the enchantments on the weapons.

Oh, right. At this point you only have your luck
maxxed out.

Cleaver is not a bad early game approach. It is a
bad late game approach. When to switch strategies in
the mid-game is a judgement issue.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> Doesn't Stormbringer also heal the wielder a little when
> it level-drains a monster? Seems there was a big long hairy
> thread about this awhile back.

Stormy protects against level drain, but it does not heal
in vanilla. I do not know about Slash'em.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > Cleaver is not a bad early game approach. It is a
> > bad late game approach.
>
> When does late game start in your opinion? And what means "bad" for you?
> (I assume something like "not the utmost possible effect"? Otherwise it
> would make no sense to me.)

The beauty of Nethack is everything is a judgement
call and everyone can make different judgement
calls.

In my opinion, the late game starts when have a kit of
items good enough to go below the Castle and start
searching for the vibratign square. Maybe I'll
encounter enough dragons in Ludios to get the right
DSM, maybe I'll need a wish. Maybe I'll exit the
mines with weapons I'll use the rest of the game,
maybe I'll do more altar camping later. And so on.
If I arrive on the Medusa level and I have enough
equipment that it is a cake-walk, I may as well
consider that I am in th elate game.

The one time I'm positive it is late game is when
I've gotten the amulet. The bad effects of having
both of your hands welded to a two-handed weapon
are the bad effects. Yes, it can be fixed with a
holy water in your main inventory. But once you
have the amulet the stock of holy water starts to
decrease.

> A current character is now around level 40 (or so) without any weapon
> problems; he carries the +6 Cleaver at expert level.
>
> > When to switch strategies in the mid-game is a judgement issue.
>
> Not sure whether to switch weapon for Moloch or the Planes. Yet it's ok.

At least when you have the amulet. I would switch
earlier to get max skill at twoweapon. Maybe stay
with two weapons from then on, maybe go back to
Cleaver once max skill at twoweapon, but at least
be ready for the curses from the Amulet.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 14 Jul 2005 08:44:42 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
<dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Eric the Viking wrote:
>> anon wrote:
>> > Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
>> > sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
>> > like level drain and silver damage.
>>
>> > Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
>> > Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM
>>
>> After looking at some of the numbers in the various spoilers, I think
>> it's a bit more complicated than that. Looking only at the average damage:
>>
>> SAVG LAVG
>> Cleaver: 10.5 12
>> Stormy/sabre combo: 11 10.5
>>
>> This ignores Stormy's level drain and additional silver damage. If I
>> understand level drain correctly, that would add an additional 4.5
>> damage to the above. Does that happen every hit?
>
>Every hit with Stormy drains a level from any monster not
>resistant to level drain. A few of the most powerfull
>monsters are the few that are immune. The 4.5 is an
>average itself. The damage is draining a level and for
>a monster whose max-HP to XP-level ratio is more than
>4.5 they lose more than 4.5, lower ratios lose less.


Doesn't Stormbringer also heal the wielder a little when
it level-drains a monster? Seems there was a big long hairy
thread about this awhile back.


>
>> But it's a bit more complicated. In Ooog's next incarnation, I was
>> two-weaponing Stormy and some other sword, and noticed that I wasn't
>> doing so well in combat. I would still plow through pretty much
>> everything, but it seemed to take longer than with Cleaver.
>
>Maxed luck combined with maxxed skill means never
>missing. How do you manage to get your weapons up
>to +5 without maxxed luck and skill? Maxxed luck
>should happen on the way up from mines end. For a
>combat wombat maxxed skill the same.

"...I wasn't doing so well in combat..." may mean he
didn't think monsters were dying quickly enough.

(i.e. I agree with your assessment and am looking for an
alternate explanation.)

I check my wielded weapon when monsters last longer than
feels right. Usually it's the right one and it's just luck.


Jove

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> Cleaver is not a bad early game approach. It is a
> bad late game approach.

When does late game start in your opinion? And what means "bad" for you?
(I assume something like "not the utmost possible effect"? Otherwise it
would make no sense to me.)

A current character is now around level 40 (or so) without any weapon
problems; he carries the +6 Cleaver at expert level.

> When to switch strategies in the mid-game is a judgement issue.

Not sure whether to switch weapon for Moloch or the Planes. Yet it's ok.

Janis

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking <eaolson@gmail.com> wrote:

> So from now on, I'm sticking with Cleaver until I have the resources to
> up the enchantments on the weapons.

Or maybe you should consider not playing chaotics, so you won't get
Stormbringer anymore, and avoid this dilemma altogether.

But of course what you really need to maximize damage are gauntlets of
power; with these, your damage bonus simply becomes insane, regardless
of what weapon you use.

BTW, does the damage bonus also apply to thrown daggers? If so, I think
that would make barbarians pretty much invincible, since their only real
weakness is in range attack. Though they can only advance dagger to
basic, this would be more than compensated for by their numerous damage
and speed bonuses.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

anon wrote:

> BTW, does the damage bonus also apply to thrown daggers?

Yes.

> If so, I
> think that would make barbarians pretty much invincible, since their
> only real weakness is in range attack. Though they can only advance
> dagger to basic, this would be more than compensated for by their
> numerous damage and speed bonuses.

The real problem being that you won't get three or four hits per round.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

anon <anon@anon.com> writes:

> Eric the Viking <eaolson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So from now on, I'm sticking with Cleaver until I have the resources to
> > up the enchantments on the weapons.
>
> Or maybe you should consider not playing chaotics, so you won't get
> Stormbringer anymore, and avoid this dilemma altogether.
>
> But of course what you really need to maximize damage are gauntlets of
> power; with these, your damage bonus simply becomes insane, regardless
> of what weapon you use.

And that makes the double-damage weapons more valuable, because the +6
to damage from the gauntlets also gets doubled. Grayswandir, Frost
Brand, and Fire Brand are thus the best weapons once you get a big
damage bonus. (An early weapon wish for a barbarian is best used on
Mjollnir, since barbarians can get to expert.)

--
David Grabiner, grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu, http://remarque.org/~grabiner
Baseball labor negotiations FAQ: http://remarque.org/~grabiner/laborfaq.html
Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
Klein Glassworks, Torus Coffee and Donuts, Projective Airlines, etc.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@removethisword.home.nl> wrote:

> The real problem being that you won't get three or four hits per round.

Indeed, and after some calculations, I've come to the conclusion that
spear is actually the most effective throwing weapon for barbarians,
based on damage-to-weight ratio, and accounting for the barbarian's
one-attack-per-round limitation:

SDAM LDAM WGT WGT/SDAM WGT/LDAM
elven dagger 1-5 1-3 10 3.33 5
dagger 1-4 1-3 10 4 5
elven spear 2-8 2-9 30 6 5.45
spear 2-7 2-9 30 6.67 5.45
axe 3-8 3-6 60 10.91 13.33

So a spear is basically equivalent to 3 daggers. I was surprised that an
axe was so poor as a throwing weapon; you'd think it would a little more
damage at least, considering its weight alone.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

anon <anon@anon.com> writes:

> Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@removethisword.home.nl> wrote:
>
> > The real problem being that you won't get three or four hits per round.
>
> Indeed, and after some calculations, I've come to the conclusion that
> spear is actually the most effective throwing weapon for barbarians,
> based on damage-to-weight ratio, and accounting for the barbarian's
> one-attack-per-round limitation:
>
> SDAM LDAM WGT WGT/SDAM WGT/LDAM
> elven dagger 1-5 1-3 10 3.33 5
> dagger 1-4 1-3 10 4 5
> elven spear 2-8 2-9 30 6 5.45
> spear 2-7 2-9 30 6.67 5.45
> axe 3-8 3-6 60 10.91 13.33
>
> So a spear is basically equivalent to 3 daggers. I was surprised that an
> axe was so poor as a throwing weapon; you'd think it would a little more
> damage at least, considering its weight alone.

But then you need to add your damage bonus, which a barbarian will have
from his strength if nothing else. A dagger with a +3 strength damage
bonus average 5.5, while a spear with a +3 bonus averages 7.5.

--
David Grabiner, grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu, http://remarque.org/~grabiner
Baseball labor negotiations FAQ: http://remarque.org/~grabiner/laborfaq.html
Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
Klein Glassworks, Torus Coffee and Donuts, Projective Airlines, etc.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

anon wrote:
> Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@removethisword.home.nl> wrote:
>
>>The real problem being that you won't get three or four hits per round.
>
> Indeed, and after some calculations, I've come to the conclusion that
> spear is actually the most effective throwing weapon for barbarians,

(The last DiamondRobin barbarian had 2 silver spears, not even used once.)

> based on damage-to-weight ratio, and accounting for the barbarian's
> one-attack-per-round limitation:
>
> SDAM LDAM WGT WGT/SDAM WGT/LDAM
> elven dagger 1-5 1-3 10 3.33 5
> dagger 1-4 1-3 10 4 5
> elven spear 2-8 2-9 30 6 5.45
> spear 2-7 2-9 30 6.67 5.45
> axe 3-8 3-6 60 10.91 13.33
>
> So a spear is basically equivalent to 3 daggers. I was surprised that an
> axe was so poor as a throwing weapon; you'd think it would a little more
> damage at least, considering its weight alone.

Would you please explain that?

I'd read your data differently; the more interesting value seems to me to
be DAM/WGT (as opposed to WGT/DAM). Then spears would be slightly worse
than daggers. E.g., average large damage of 3 daggers (weight 30) is 6,
and the spear (weight 30) is at 5.5 large damage.

Did I miss anything?

Janis

Ignoring the probability distribution, and ignoring possible monster
regeneration effects during the 2 additional turns you need for the daggers.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David J. Grabiner <grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:

> But then you need to add your damage bonus, which a barbarian will have
> from his strength if nothing else. A dagger with a +3 strength damage
> bonus average 5.5, while a spear with a +3 bonus averages 7.5.

I considered only the weapon skill bonus, because that's the only
non-constant variable in calculating the total damage. My point was that
because a barbarian's rate of fire is limited to one per round for any
weapon, even though dagger and bow have nominally better
damage-to-weight, the spear does much more damage in the same time, with
comparable damage-to-weight.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

anon wrote:
> David J. Grabiner <grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
>
> > But then you need to add your damage bonus, which a barbarian will have
> > from his strength if nothing else. A dagger with a +3 strength damage
> > bonus average 5.5, while a spear with a +3 bonus averages 7.5.
>
> I considered only the weapon skill bonus, because that's the only
> non-constant variable in calculating the total damage. My point was that
> because a barbarian's rate of fire is limited to one per round for any
> weapon, even though dagger and bow have nominally better
> damage-to-weight, the spear does much more damage in the same time, with
> comparable damage-to-weight.

Except, er, daggers can stack. Which means it's much easier for you to
get a nice stack of 10 +6 daggers, and also it takes up only 1 slot in
your inventory. At that point, convenience outweighs, I think.

Although I probably start looking for other sources of range attacks
for barbarians. Like running head straight into the monsters.

-K

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

anon wrote:
>
> ... I've come to the conclusion that spear is actually
> the most effective throwing weapon for barbarians ...

Tale from a college anthropology course. There was once
a categorization of cultures into 3 levels (long since
obsolete). Savagery was typified by stone tools and
spears. Barbarism was typified by hand made metal tools
and bow. Civilization was typified by writing. By this
old system, spear would be great for cavemen, bows for
barbarians, spells for the civilized folks. As someone
who has played spellcasting Valks, this strikes me now
as even funny than when I first heard it in class lo these
many years ago.

> SDAM LDAM WGT WGT/SDAM WGT/LDAM
> elven dagger 1-5 1-3 10 3.33 5
> dagger 1-4 1-3 10 4 5
> elven spear 2-8 2-9 30 6 5.45
> spear 2-7 2-9 30 6.67 5.45
> axe 3-8 3-6 60 10.91 13.33

The table should have damage-to-weight not weight-to-damage.
You want how much damage can be caused by the same weight
carried.

> So a spear is basically equivalent to 3 daggers.

1 spear, 30 weight, 6.67/5.45 damage. 3 daggers, 30
weight, 9.99/15 damage. Per weight daggers win. That's
not the issue. your interesting point is if only one
is thrown you want the most damage consistant with being
able to carry a bunch.

> I was surprised that an axe was so poor as a throwing
> weapon; you'd think it would a little more
> damage at least, considering its weight alone.

One of the things I do outside of work and Nethack is
play in occasional "Viking games". They started as a
spoof on Scottish/Highland games but they were so much fun
I know of groups that now do them during annual campouts.
The games include axe throwing for accuracy, throwing for
accuracy, boat rowing for speed (at camp grounds on water)
and so on* Getting an axe to stick into a wooden target
is a feat of serious skill. A thrown axe should do damage
that is greatly effected by skill.

* My favorite Viking games contest is mead brewing. Home
brewed mead can beat any commercial wine I've tried. So
far I tried it once. A year later I had a gallon of
"5 blessed potions of confusion". A year, I don't have
the patience ...

Kremti wrote:
>
> Except, er, daggers can stack. Which means it's much
> easier for you to get a nice stack of 10 +6 daggers ...

Spears stack as well. Each type will stack together.
After finishing a sacfest in minetown that used create
monster spells, my characters have seen stacks of elven
spears that contain several. Use cancellation, and you'll
be able to stack every regular/elven/dwarvish/silver spear
in the game into 4 stacks.

Daggers are a LOT more common than spears, though. If
I waited until I had 10 spears of any one type before
bringing them up to +6, I do it on the way back up with
the Amulet. If I waited until I have 10 daggers of any
one type before +6, I'd need to do it with orcish, then
again with regular, then again with elven daggers and all
those before reaching Medusa.

David J. Grabiner wrote:
>
> And that makes the double-damage weapons more valuable,
> because the +6 to damage from the gauntlets also gets
> doubled. Grayswandir, Frost Brand, and Fire Brand are
> thus the best weapons once you get a big damage bonus.

None of those are on my list to throw. Monsters tend to
pick up thrown weapons. The last thing I want is to throw
Greyswandir at a line of advancing orcs and have each one
pick it up and wield it as the line advances. If I don't
kill them all remotely I'm facing a battle with Greyswandir
on the wrong side.

Long ago I used to play "Sting pong". Throw Sting at a
line of advancing orcs. The next one would pick up Sting
and throw it at me. Back and forth with Sting doing
double damage to them not to me. Somewhere along the line
orcs stopped picking up elven weapons and vice versa and
that system dissappeared from the game.

The principle applies, though. Do you really want to
throw weapons that do the maximum damage possible? How
good an idea is it to thrown a blessed +6 silver spear
at a row of monsters likely to throw it back at you? I
do thrown daggers constantly, but missiles do carry risk.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

anon@anon.com wrote:

> Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@removethisword.home.nl> wrote:
>
>> The real problem being that you won't get three or four hits per round.
>
> Indeed, and after some calculations, I've come to the conclusion that
> spear is actually the most effective throwing weapon for barbarians,
> based on damage-to-weight ratio, and accounting for the barbarian's
> one-attack-per-round limitation:
>
> SDAM LDAM WGT WGT/SDAM WGT/LDAM
> elven dagger 1-5 1-3 10 3.33 5
> dagger 1-4 1-3 10 4 5
> elven spear 2-8 2-9 30 6 5.45
> spear 2-7 2-9 30 6.67 5.45
> axe 3-8 3-6 60 10.91 13.33
>
> So a spear is basically equivalent to 3 daggers.

.... if both are +0. The real power to thrown daggers for classes that can
become skilled in them is when the character enchants a stack of them.
(I'm not disagreeing with your analysis, mind).

--
Benjamin Lewis

All what we got here is American made.
It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed. -- FZ

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kremti wrote:
> anon wrote:
>
>>I considered only the weapon skill bonus, because that's the only
>>non-constant variable in calculating the total damage. My point was that
>>because a barbarian's rate of fire is limited to one per round for any
>>weapon, even though dagger and bow have nominally better
>>damage-to-weight, the spear does much more damage in the same time, with
>>comparable damage-to-weight.
>
> Except, er, daggers can stack.

As do spears.

> Which means it's much easier for you to
> get a nice stack of 10 +6 daggers, and also it takes up only 1 slot in
> your inventory. At that point, convenience outweighs, I think.
>
> Although I probably start looking for other sources of range attacks
> for barbarians. Like running head straight into the monsters.

Janis

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> The principle applies, though. Do you really want to
> throw weapons that do the maximum damage possible? How
> good an idea is it to thrown a blessed +6 silver spear
> at a row of monsters likely to throw it back at you? I
> do thrown daggers constantly, but missiles do carry risk.

I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...

"The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
/* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */


Janis

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
> one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
>
> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */

Especially considering that barbarians are unskilled in sling, and so
have -2 to damage. Depending on how that's calculated it seems to me to be:
(d3 - 2) x 2 = 2 max
(d3 x 2) - 2 = 4 max
I'm not sure where the double-damage is incorporated.

It seems rather silly to me for the Heart to convey stealth when
carried, too. You have to be level 14 to go on the Quest, but
barbarians get stealth at level 15 anyway.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
> I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
> one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
>
> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
>
Well, it's not like it's good for anything else.

--
John Campbell
jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Doug Freyburger wrote:
<snip>
> Kremti wrote:
> >
> > Except, er, daggers can stack. Which means it's much
> > easier for you to get a nice stack of 10 +6 daggers ...
>
> Spears stack as well. Each type will stack together.
> After finishing a sacfest in minetown that used create
> monster spells, my characters have seen stacks of elven
> spears that contain several. Use cancellation, and you'll
> be able to stack every regular/elven/dwarvish/silver spear
> in the game into 4 stacks.

Eh, you know, I never actually collected spears so I never knew they
stacked...Maybe I should play with a spear character next.

>
> Daggers are a LOT more common than spears, though. If
> I waited until I had 10 spears of any one type before
> bringing them up to +6, I do it on the way back up with
> the Amulet. If I waited until I have 10 daggers of any
> one type before +6, I'd need to do it with orcish, then
> again with regular, then again with elven daggers and all
> those before reaching Medusa.

Which is definitely is an advantage. What I do with 100's of daggers
(with the dagger oriented characters like rogues) is that I start to
attempt to over-enchant above +7, since, well, they are dime a dozen.
Enchant all of them up to +7, and split the stack and see them
vaporized (and hope some survive...).

Of course, that's when you have abundance of daggers and
scrolls/markers to blow. But with characters who can machinegun the
daggers it's kinda cool after you cover all the basics with your
resources.

-K

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

John Campbell wrote:

> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> John Campbell wrote:
>>
>>> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
>>>> one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
>>>>
>>>> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
>>>> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
>>>>
>>> Well, it's not like it's good for anything else.
>> DiamonRobin #invoked it often to levitate (especially across Juiblex'
>> swamp where he had been thrown back a couple of times on his way up).
>
> I've used it for levitation, too, but even there it's debatable
> whether it's an improvement over a ring. It's more convenient than
> swapping rings around, and it doesn't take up a finger, but rings don't
> sulk and refuse to work if you use them too often.
>
> And, yeah, that's a bit of a step up from "not good for anything
> else", but, really, "maybe as useful as a ring of levitation" isn't
> quite what I'm looking for in a Quest Artifact.

Indeed; I think that if that artifact is not completely modified, at the
very least an exception should be made and the "... is ignoring you" should
be eliminated for it. I don't think this would even come close to making
it overpowered.

--
Benjamin Lewis

All what we got here is American made.
It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed. -- FZ

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting anon <anon@anon.com>:
>But of course what you really need to maximize damage are gauntlets of
>power; with these, your damage bonus simply becomes insane, regardless
>of what weapon you use.

Really? So, tell us, how much more is it than with Str 18/** ?
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is First Teleute, July.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Richard Bos wrote:

> Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Eric the Viking wrote:
>>> It seems rather silly to me for the Heart to convey stealth when
>>> carried, too. You have to be level 14 to go on the Quest, but
>>> barbarians get stealth at level 15 anyway.
>>
>> It's getting more and more strange, indeed.
>>
>> <low voice> Could it be that in this case the Devteam exceptionally
>> did *not* think of everything? </low voice>
>
> No, I think they did. Barbarians do not need a powerful artifact, since
> they're such hard-hitters by nature, and they shouldn't rely on magical
> help such as the Valk's Orb of Fate.

Yeah, but c'mon... let's enumerate the Heart's "powers":

- acts as a luckstone. If a barbarian can complete the quest, he/she can
complete the mines, where a luckstone is guaranteed.
- confers "stealth". As noted, this is moot after the barbarian gets to
level 15, a mere stone's throw (rimshot) away from where he/she must be
for the quest in the first place.
- +d5 to hit if thrown/slung, *2 damage if slung at a monster. What's the
freakin' point?
- can toggle levitation. This is the *only* marginally useful feature, and
it can't even be relied on.

Now let's compare to a Valkyrie. You claim these are not as "hard
hitters"; however, they can become expert in longswords, where barbarians
can only become skilled, and they can become skilled in #twoweapon, where
barbarians can only get to basic. Already, I'd consider that a *huge*
advantage for Valkyries, especially considering all the nice artifact
longswords.

Now lets look at the Valk quest artifact:

- acts as a luckstone
- confers "warning" (which I prefer to stealth)
- confers half spell damage and half physical damage (nothing even remotely
equivalent in B artifact)
- instead of levitation when invoked, allows level teleport. I'd rank this
at least an order of magnitude above levitation.

--
Benjamin Lewis

All what we got here is American made.
It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed. -- FZ

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

John Campbell wrote:
> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>
>> I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
>> one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
>>
>> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
>> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
>>
> Well, it's not like it's good for anything else.

DiamonRobin #invoked it often to levitate (especially across Juiblex'
swamp where he had been thrown back a couple of times on his way up).

Janis

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:
> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>> I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
>> one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
>>
>> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
>> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
>
> Especially considering that barbarians are unskilled in sling, and so
> have -2 to damage.

Wow, and I haven't even considered that this could be the case. 8-o

> It seems rather silly to me for the Heart to convey stealth when
> carried, too. You have to be level 14 to go on the Quest, but
> barbarians get stealth at level 15 anyway.

It's getting more and more strange, indeed.

<low voice> Could it be that in this case the Devteam exceptionally
did *not* think of everything? </low voice>

Janis

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

After going to <http://tinyurl.com/2tnqw&gt;
Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote

>Eric the Viking wrote:
>> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>
>>> I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
>>> one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
>>>
>>> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
>>> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
>>
>> Especially considering that barbarians are unskilled in sling, and so
>> have -2 to damage.
>
>Wow, and I haven't even considered that this could be the case. 8-o
>
>> It seems rather silly to me for the Heart to convey stealth when
>> carried, too. You have to be level 14 to go on the Quest, but
>> barbarians get stealth at level 15 anyway.
>
>It's getting more and more strange, indeed.
>
><low voice> Could it be that in this case the Devteam exceptionally
>did *not* think of everything? </low voice>

What about non-barbarians wishing for The Heart of Ahriman?
--
no, i didn't forget the 'F's
http://www.geocities.com/jerk_o2002
http://www.geocities.com/nameless_mod
-My Diablo 2 Mod
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bunny.php
-My theme song

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> John Campbell wrote:
>
>> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
>>> one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
>>>
>>> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
>>> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
>>>
>> Well, it's not like it's good for anything else.
>
>
> DiamonRobin #invoked it often to levitate (especially across Juiblex'
> swamp where he had been thrown back a couple of times on his way up).

I've used it for levitation, too, but even there it's debatable
whether it's an improvement over a ring. It's more convenient than
swapping rings around, and it doesn't take up a finger, but rings don't
sulk and refuse to work if you use them too often.

And, yeah, that's a bit of a step up from "not good for anything
else", but, really, "maybe as useful as a ring of levitation" isn't
quite what I'm looking for in a Quest Artifact.

--
John Campbell
jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Eric the Viking wrote:
> > It seems rather silly to me for the Heart to convey stealth when
> > carried, too. You have to be level 14 to go on the Quest, but
> > barbarians get stealth at level 15 anyway.
>
> It's getting more and more strange, indeed.
>
> <low voice> Could it be that in this case the Devteam exceptionally
> did *not* think of everything? </low voice>

No, I think they did. Barbarians do not need a powerful artifact, since
they're such hard-hitters by nature, and they shouldn't rely on magical
help such as the Valk's Orb of Fate.

Richard

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting anon anon@anon.com:

>> But of course what you really need to maximize damage are gauntlets
>> of power; with these, your damage bonus simply becomes insane,
>> regardless of what weapon you use.

> Really? So, tell us, how much more is it than with Str 18/** ?

A chaotic barbarian named Oogh would have me suspect to be an orc.

In that case, gauntlets of power would certainly help:

18/50: +1 to hit, +3 to damage
18/00: +3 to hit, +6 to damage

Note that gauntlets of *dexterity* do make a difference between 18 (+4
to hit bonus) and 25 (+11 bonus).

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

jerk-o wrote:
> After going to <http://tinyurl.com/2tnqw&gt;
> Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote
>>Eric the Viking wrote:
>>>Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>>
>>>>I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
>>>>one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
>>>>
>>>> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
>>>> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
>>>
>>>Especially considering that barbarians are unskilled in sling, and so
>>>have -2 to damage.
>>
>>Wow, and I haven't even considered that this could be the case. 8-o
>>
>>>It seems rather silly to me for the Heart to convey stealth when
>>>carried, too. You have to be level 14 to go on the Quest, but
>>>barbarians get stealth at level 15 anyway.
>>
>>It's getting more and more strange, indeed.
>>
>><low voice> Could it be that in this case the Devteam exceptionally
>>did *not* think of everything? </low voice>
>
> What about non-barbarians wishing for The Heart of Ahriman?

I don't do that, but would anyone wishing for artifacts wish for that one?

Janis

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Benjamin Lewis wrote:
> John Campbell wrote:
>>Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>>John Campbell wrote:
>>>>Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
>>>>>one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
>>>>>
>>>>>"The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
>>>>>/* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
>>>>
>>>>Well, it's not like it's good for anything else.
>>>
>>>DiamonRobin #invoked it often to levitate (especially across Juiblex'
>>>swamp where he had been thrown back a couple of times on his way up).
>>
>> I've used it for levitation, too, but even there it's debatable
>>whether it's an improvement over a ring. It's more convenient than
>>swapping rings around, and it doesn't take up a finger, but rings don't
>>sulk and refuse to work if you use them too often.
>>
>> And, yeah, that's a bit of a step up from "not good for anything
>>else", but, really, "maybe as useful as a ring of levitation" isn't
>>quite what I'm looking for in a Quest Artifact.

It was really of some use to keep the fingers free, but basically I agree
of course.

I was just surprised by the wording, since I consider the damage thing
completely unimportant, and the levitation - though not *necessary* in
this form

- at least had been of some use.

> Indeed; I think that if that artifact is not completely modified, at the
> very least an exception should be made and the "... is ignoring you" should
> be eliminated for it. I don't think this would even come close to making
> it overpowered.

Though interestingly, as I've written, I was thrown back beyond Juiblex'
level a couple of times, I had to pass the swamp in quite short time
intervals. The artifact did not once refused to do its jobs; so maybe
the timeout[**] is enough for the purpose.

Janis

A separae ring of levitation (and stealth, and a luckstone) does not
mean any significant increase of weight, just a slight inconvenience.

[**] During that game I even thought that the timeout might be disabled
for this artifact, because of the actual short-term reactivation.
But I haven't checked that in the source and at that moment - with
The Amulet - it was of minor interest to me. ;-)

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Richard Bos wrote:

> Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:
>
>> Now let's compare to a Valkyrie. You claim these are not as "hard
>> hitters";
>
> No, I don't. I claim that Barbs have a mythological reason to shun
> magical help, which Valks don't. Yes, this makes Valks even easier than
> Barbs. Life is not fair.

Oh, I didn't realize you were speaking from a "role-playing" rather than
"game-balance" perspective. In that case, I entirely agree with you, and
it makes a good case for the Heart's levitation only sometimes working as
well -- it reflects the barbarian stereotype of relying on magic as little
as possible.

Now that I think of it, I also *like* the fact that the "game-balance"
between classes is not "fair" -- it gives NetHack some sort of
correspondence to games with "skill levels"; but it is even more
interesting because in NetHack's case, the class->skill mapping is not the
same over various individuals.

--
Benjamin Lewis

All what we got here is American made.
It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed. -- FZ