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Barbarian weapon suggestions?

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Anonymous
a b α HP
July 10, 2005 11:02:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Ooog the chaotic Barbarian currently has a plethora of artifact weapons.
This is after finding a mamby-pamby lawful priest in the Mines,
working up the courage and the HP to take him on, doing so, sacrificing
an entire mountain of corpses to Set, using up an entire bag of tricks,
accidentally ticking off the Minestown guards, sacrificing *them* to
Set, summoning Jubilex, summoning Yeenoghu, and getting exactly
diddly-point-squat from Set.

I gave up on that temple, then found one to Set on level 12 and started
sacrificing away. First corpse, BAM, Cleaver. Next, BAM, Stormbringer.
Popping down to the next level only to find a bones level with
Mjollnir *and* Excalibur (thank you Missy25, whoever you are). Popped
back up to discover them both cursed (naturally) and to accidentally
sacrifice and get Dragonsbane. So now I have:

+0 Cleaver
+0 Stormbringer
+? Mjollnir, cursed
+? Excalibur, cursed
+0 Dragonsbane

Truly an embarrasment of riches. But I am at a loss as to which weapon
I should use. Cleaver seems to do some nice damage. Stormbringer
doesn't do so much damage, but is more fun. :-) Dragonsbane not so
great, but two-weaponable. Mojo does kick-butt damage, but is cursed
and I'm not sure of the enchantment.

My gut feeling is to go with Mojo, since barbarians can get war hammer
up to Expert level. I *think* that's a two-handed skill so no
two-weaponing with Stormy or DB. Another option is to two-weapon Stormy
and some other non-artifact weapon which I don't yet have. Or to stick
with Cleaver.

Any suggestions?
Anonymous
a b α HP
July 10, 2005 11:02:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:

> So now I have:
>
> +0 Cleaver
> +0 Stormbringer
> +? Mjollnir, cursed
> +? Excalibur, cursed
> +0 Dragonsbane
>
> Truly an embarrasment of riches. But I am at a loss as to which weapon
> I should use. Cleaver seems to do some nice damage. Stormbringer
> doesn't do so much damage, but is more fun. :-) Dragonsbane not so
> great, but two-weaponable. Mojo does kick-butt damage, but is cursed
> and I'm not sure of the enchantment.
>
> My gut feeling is to go with Mojo, since barbarians can get war hammer
> up to Expert level. I *think* that's a two-handed skill so no
> two-weaponing with Stormy or DB. Another option is to two-weapon Stormy
> and some other non-artifact weapon which I don't yet have. Or to stick
> with Cleaver.

I'm kind of partial to Excalibur, especially if I don't already have
automatic searching. It does decent damage, too, and a helping of
level-drain resistance on the side.

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening
July 11, 2005 5:14:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking <eaolson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ooog the chaotic Barbarian currently has a plethora of artifact weapons.
> This is after finding a mamby-pamby lawful priest in the Mines,
> working up the courage and the HP to take him on, doing so, sacrificing
> an entire mountain of corpses to Set, using up an entire bag of tricks,
> accidentally ticking off the Minestown guards, sacrificing *them* to
> Set, summoning Jubilex, summoning Yeenoghu, and getting exactly
> diddly-point-squat from Set.

> I gave up on that temple, then found one to Set on level 12 and started
> sacrificing away. First corpse, BAM, Cleaver. Next, BAM, Stormbringer.
> Popping down to the next level only to find a bones level with
> Mjollnir *and* Excalibur (thank you Missy25, whoever you are). Popped
> back up to discover them both cursed (naturally) and to accidentally
> sacrifice and get Dragonsbane. So now I have:

> +0 Cleaver
> +0 Stormbringer
> +? Mjollnir, cursed
> +? Excalibur, cursed
> +0 Dragonsbane

> Truly an embarrasment of riches. But I am at a loss as to which weapon
> I should use. Cleaver seems to do some nice damage. Stormbringer
> doesn't do so much damage, but is more fun. :-) Dragonsbane not so
> great, but two-weaponable. Mojo does kick-butt damage, but is cursed
> and I'm not sure of the enchantment.

> My gut feeling is to go with Mojo, since barbarians can get war hammer
> up to Expert level. I *think* that's a two-handed skill so no
> two-weaponing with Stormy or DB. Another option is to two-weapon Stormy
> and some other non-artifact weapon which I don't yet have. Or to stick
> with Cleaver.

> Any suggestions?

Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
like level drain and silver damage.

Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM

Unfortunately, I don't think you can use Mojo because it's not aligned.
Related resources
Anonymous
a b α HP
July 11, 2005 5:37:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:
> So now I have:
>
> +0 Cleaver
> +0 Stormbringer
> +? Mjollnir, cursed
> +? Excalibur, cursed
> +0 Dragonsbane
>
> Truly an embarrasment of riches. But I am at a loss as to which weapon
> I should use. Cleaver seems to do some nice damage. Stormbringer
> doesn't do so much damage, but is more fun. :-) Dragonsbane not so
> great, but two-weaponable. Mojo does kick-butt damage, but is cursed
> and I'm not sure of the enchantment.

In a current game I got Cleaver (now +6 and expert) and then Frostbrand.
At this stage Cleaver is very effective, so I abstained from enchanting
Frostbrand (currently +1) and use Cleaver, also for roleplaying reason.

With both of the other interesting swords, Stormbringer and Excalibur
(both having nice properties!)
  • , you can only get to skilled. You may
    want to first identify the enchantment of Excalibur and decide then.

    Mjollnir is also nice, of course. All the first four weapons are basically
    a choice to go with. Do you plan to use a shield (for reflection)?

    > My gut feeling is to go with Mojo, since barbarians can get war hammer
    > up to Expert level. I *think* that's a two-handed skill so no

    ???

    > two-weaponing with Stormy or DB. Another option is to two-weapon Stormy
    > and some other non-artifact weapon which I don't yet have. Or to stick
    > with Cleaver.

    With the exception of Cleaver none of these artifact weapons are two-handed.

    > Any suggestions?

    I'd take all the four with me, and switch if necessary. Enchant Cleaver
    _or_ Mjollnir first and enhance your weapon proficiency in it to become
    expert, then enchant and enhance one of the other swords (IMO Excalibur,
    then Stormy).

    Yours is the final decision.

    Janis

  • In my current game the level drain occurred to me quite often but was
    never a problem since the critter died quite fast and restored my level.
    So the level drain protection is currently not relevant (for me). Neither
    is the searching property since I have a ring.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 11, 2005 8:23:16 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    anon wrote:
    > Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
    > sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
    > like level drain and silver damage.
    >
    > Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
    > Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM
    >
    > Unfortunately, I don't think you can use Mojo because it's not aligned.

    Unfortunately, silver sabers are fairly rare. I often don't find one
    even by the time I get to the castle, and often wind up wishing for one.

    Cleaver actually does some pretty good damage for a single weapon. Mojo
    beats it a bit, and using it is no problem, if you don't mind getting
    blasted when you pick it up, or switch to it as a primary weapon.

    Ooog the Barbarian, however, met his maker at the pointy end of a
    captain's voulge in Fort Ludios.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 11, 2005 11:23:13 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Eric the Viking wrote:
    <snip>
    >
    > +0 Cleaver
    > +0 Stormbringer
    > +? Mjollnir, cursed
    > +? Excalibur, cursed
    > +0 Dragonsbane
    <snip>

    My pick would have been either Excalibur or Stormy with an off hand
    weapon (Prefarably silver saber, but it doesn't really have to
    be...silver dagger does almost as well once you enchant it up to
    +6-7ish and get your strength to max, or plain old longsword will do).


    -K
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 11, 2005 1:22:42 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:23:16 GMT
    Eric the Viking <eaolson@gmail.com> wrote:
    >Unfortunately, silver sabers are fairly rare. I often don't find one
    >even by the time I get to the castle, and often wind up wishing for one.

    I usually polypile for them. you can also get (S) silver long swords, which IMHO are better.

    >Cleaver actually does some pretty good damage for a single weapon. Mojo
    >beats it a bit, and using it is no problem, if you don't mind getting
    >blasted when you pick it up, or switch to it as a primary weapon.

    Mojo is nice... but stormbringer is better.

    >Ooog the Barbarian, however, met his maker at the pointy end of a
    >captain's voulge in Fort Ludios.

    I have died there (TM)*




    (not really trademarked, but would make a nice shirt:



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    | | |
    | | ------------ |
    -------+-- | | |
    | }}}}}}} }}}}}}} | | |
    | }-----} }-----} --|--|-- | |
    --- }| |}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}| |} | | |
    | }--------------------------------} | | |
    | }}}|^ ^^ ^ ^^^ ^| |}}} - | |
    ------- }| ^ ^^ ^ | |} | | |
    | | }| ^ ^^ ^^ | \ |} | | |
    | + }}}|^ ^ ^ ^ | |}}} - | |
    | | }--------------------------------} | | |
    | | }| |}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}| |} | | |
    | ------ }-----} }-----} --+--+-- | |
    | | ...| }}}}}}} }}}}}}} | | |
    | | .^.| | | |
    ----------- ------------ |
    | |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    I have died there...
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 11, 2005 1:33:14 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    noah bedford wrote:
    > On 11 Jul 2005 07:23:13 -0700
    > "Kremti" <kremti@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > >My pick would have been either Excalibur or Stormy with an off hand
    > >weapon (Prefarably silver saber, but it doesn't really have to
    > >be...silver dagger does almost as well once you enchant it up to
    > >+6-7ish and get your strength to max, or plain old longsword will do).
    >
    > Or a silver longsword (S)

    Except that in you can two-weapon two artifact weapons. In that
    case I might as well go both Excalibur AND Stormy.

    -K
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 11, 2005 1:37:35 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Eric the Viking wrote:
    > anon wrote:
    >
    > > Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
    > > sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
    > > like level drain and silver damage.

    Cleaver's bonus isn't doubled but it is large. So it
    is junk only when compared to a highly enchanted
    artifact that does double it's damage.

    > > Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
    > > Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM

    Do not underestimate the level draining feature of Stormy.
    It gives fewer insta-kills but in a knock-down drag-out
    fight with a large powerfull monster level drain makes a
    huge difference.

    > > Unfortunately, I don't think you can use Mojo because it's not aligned.

    Not an issue once it has been uncursed.

    > Unfortunately, silver sabers are fairly rare. I often don't find one
    > even by the time I get to the castle, and often wind up wishing for one.

    Where's your chaotic spirit? ;^) The watch captain and
    soldier captains have 50-50 long sword or silver saber.
    If you don't get one in the mines, by the time you've
    completed the Castle you should have been left one in the
    will of an unexpecting but cooperative captain.

    > Ooog the Barbarian, however, met his maker at the pointy end of a
    > captain's voulge in Fort Ludios.

    I often leave Ludios several times before it empties.
    It is also very important to get to the space near the
    main door before the horde of soldiers arrive. Like
    the movie "300 Spartans", find a narrow point and it is
    possible to defeat a huge army one soldier at a time.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 11, 2005 1:37:55 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Cyde Weys wrote:

    > [...] imperial cubic libraries of congress?
    ^^^^^^^^
    Have the British finally re-conquered Washington?

    Or should that be "New Liverpool"?

    --
    Boudewijn.

    --
    "I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
    as my signature..." - Me
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 11, 2005 3:12:40 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 11 Jul 2005 07:23:13 -0700
    "Kremti" <kremti@gmail.com> wrote:

    >My pick would have been either Excalibur or Stormy with an off hand
    >weapon (Prefarably silver saber, but it doesn't really have to
    >be...silver dagger does almost as well once you enchant it up to
    >+6-7ish and get your strength to max, or plain old longsword will do).

    Or a silver longsword (S)
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 11, 2005 9:54:52 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 11 Jul 2005 09:37:35 -0700
    "Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >Do not underestimate the level draining feature of Stormy.
    >It gives fewer insta-kills but in a knock-down drag-out
    >fight with a large powerfull monster level drain makes a
    >huge difference.

    But as said in an earlier thread, most biggys are level drain resistant.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 11, 2005 11:57:29 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

    >Cyde Weys wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >>[...] imperial cubic libraries of congress?
    >>
    >>
    > ^^^^^^^^
    >Have the British finally re-conquered Washington?
    >
    >Or should that be "New Liverpool"?
    >
    >
    Lately, you'd be hard pressed to find a difference between them.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 12, 2005 12:45:11 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    noah bedford wrote:
    > Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >
    > >Do not underestimate the level draining feature of Stormy.
    > >It gives fewer insta-kills but in a knock-down drag-out
    > >fight with a large powerfull monster level drain makes a
    > >huge difference.
    >
    > But as said in an earlier thread, most biggys are level drain resistant.

    Numerous nasties are not resistant to level drain.

    For those that are resistant most are suseptible to
    silver. That's why I also gave suggestions on how
    to get non-artifact silver sabers. Doing twoweapon
    with Stormy and a silver saber handles most of the
    issues. Making them both +5 or better, maxing out
    your skill level in both and also in twoweapon is
    important as well.

    There are further problems with two handed weapons
    that haven't been discussed in this thread so far.
    Once you regularly face magic users and even more so
    once you have the Amulet, wielding a cursed two handed
    weapon is a serious problem. Having both hands
    welded to your weapon means there are a lot of
    activities that you can't do.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 13, 2005 1:54:18 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Eric the Viking wrote:
    > Ooog the Barbarian, however, met his maker at the pointy end of a
    > captain's voulge in Fort Ludios.

    The victim of a thrown potion of paralyis, perhaps?

    I don't usually get into HP trouble with guards, especially as a
    barbarian.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 13, 2005 7:50:12 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 13 Jul 2005 09:54:18 -0700
    "Zwanth" <zwanth@sunflower.com> wrote:

    >The victim of a thrown potion of paralyis, perhaps?

    And I never get in trouble with potions, because I spend most of my time as part of the wall.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 14, 2005 3:40:11 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Zwanth wrote:
    > The victim of a thrown potion of paralyis, perhaps?
    >
    > I don't usually get into HP trouble with guards, especially as a
    > barbarian.

    The guards were no problem. The captain, I think, had sped himself up
    somehow (wand, potion) and seemed very fast.

    I think after killing about a battalion of soldiers, I got a bit cocky
    and just kept slashing at him, rather than taking more drastic measures.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 14, 2005 3:50:52 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    anon wrote:
    > Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
    > sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
    > like level drain and silver damage.
    >
    > Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
    > Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM

    After looking at some of the numbers in the various spoilers, I think
    it's a bit more complicated than that. Looking only at the average damage:

    SAVG LAVG
    Cleaver: 10.5 12
    Stormy/sabre combo: 11 10.5

    This ignores Stormy's level drain and additional silver damage. If I
    understand level drain correctly, that would add an additional 4.5
    damage to the above. Does that happen every hit?

    But it's a bit more complicated. In Ooog's next incarnation, I was
    two-weaponing Stormy and some other sword, and noticed that I wasn't
    doing so well in combat. I would still plow through pretty much
    everything, but it seemed to take longer than with Cleaver.

    When using the two-weapon skill, the to-hit probablity takes the lower
    of your primary weapon skill and your two-weapon skill as a modifier.
    Since barbarians can only get to basic in 2weap, that means they start
    out at a whopping -7 penalty, raised to an average -4 because of
    Stormy's +d5 to hit. Cleaver gives an average +2 to hit on top of an
    expert's +3. So even though the damage in the combo meal is
    comparable's, or slightly better than, Cleaver's, it's hard to hit with
    the two weapons.

    So from now on, I'm sticking with Cleaver until I have the resources to
    up the enchantments on the weapons.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 14, 2005 12:44:42 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Eric the Viking wrote:
    > anon wrote:
    > > Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
    > > sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
    > > like level drain and silver damage.
    >
    > > Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
    > > Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM
    >
    > After looking at some of the numbers in the various spoilers, I think
    > it's a bit more complicated than that. Looking only at the average damage:
    >
    > SAVG LAVG
    > Cleaver: 10.5 12
    > Stormy/sabre combo: 11 10.5
    >
    > This ignores Stormy's level drain and additional silver damage. If I
    > understand level drain correctly, that would add an additional 4.5
    > damage to the above. Does that happen every hit?

    Every hit with Stormy drains a level from any monster not
    resistant to level drain. A few of the most powerfull
    monsters are the few that are immune. The 4.5 is an
    average itself. The damage is draining a level and for
    a monster whose max-HP to XP-level ratio is more than
    4.5 they lose more than 4.5, lower ratios lose less.

    > But it's a bit more complicated. In Ooog's next incarnation, I was
    > two-weaponing Stormy and some other sword, and noticed that I wasn't
    > doing so well in combat. I would still plow through pretty much
    > everything, but it seemed to take longer than with Cleaver.

    Maxed luck combined with maxxed skill means never
    missing. How do you manage to get your weapons up
    to +5 without maxxed luck and skill? Maxxed luck
    should happen on the way up from mines end. For a
    combat wombat maxxed skill the same.

    > When using the two-weapon skill, the to-hit probablity takes the lower
    > of your primary weapon skill and your two-weapon skill as a modifier.
    > Since barbarians can only get to basic in 2weap, that means they start
    > out at a whopping -7 penalty, raised to an average -4 because of
    > Stormy's +d5 to hit. Cleaver gives an average +2 to hit on top of an
    > expert's +3. So even though the damage in the combo meal is
    > comparable's, or slightly better than, Cleaver's, it's hard to hit with
    > the two weapons.
    >
    > So from now on, I'm sticking with Cleaver until I have the resources to
    > up the enchantments on the weapons.

    Oh, right. At this point you only have your luck
    maxxed out.

    Cleaver is not a bad early game approach. It is a
    bad late game approach. When to switch strategies in
    the mid-game is a judgement issue.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 14, 2005 1:40:06 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove wrote:
    > Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >
    > Doesn't Stormbringer also heal the wielder a little when
    > it level-drains a monster? Seems there was a big long hairy
    > thread about this awhile back.

    Stormy protects against level drain, but it does not heal
    in vanilla. I do not know about Slash'em.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 14, 2005 2:29:30 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    > Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >
    > > Cleaver is not a bad early game approach. It is a
    > > bad late game approach.
    >
    > When does late game start in your opinion? And what means "bad" for you?
    > (I assume something like "not the utmost possible effect"? Otherwise it
    > would make no sense to me.)

    The beauty of Nethack is everything is a judgement
    call and everyone can make different judgement
    calls.

    In my opinion, the late game starts when have a kit of
    items good enough to go below the Castle and start
    searching for the vibratign square. Maybe I'll
    encounter enough dragons in Ludios to get the right
    DSM, maybe I'll need a wish. Maybe I'll exit the
    mines with weapons I'll use the rest of the game,
    maybe I'll do more altar camping later. And so on.
    If I arrive on the Medusa level and I have enough
    equipment that it is a cake-walk, I may as well
    consider that I am in th elate game.

    The one time I'm positive it is late game is when
    I've gotten the amulet. The bad effects of having
    both of your hands welded to a two-handed weapon
    are the bad effects. Yes, it can be fixed with a
    holy water in your main inventory. But once you
    have the amulet the stock of holy water starts to
    decrease.

    > A current character is now around level 40 (or so) without any weapon
    > problems; he carries the +6 Cleaver at expert level.
    >
    > > When to switch strategies in the mid-game is a judgement issue.
    >
    > Not sure whether to switch weapon for Moloch or the Planes. Yet it's ok.

    At least when you have the amulet. I would switch
    earlier to get max skill at twoweapon. Maybe stay
    with two weapons from then on, maybe go back to
    Cleaver once max skill at twoweapon, but at least
    be ready for the curses from the Amulet.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 14, 2005 3:06:11 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 14 Jul 2005 08:44:42 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
    <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >Eric the Viking wrote:
    >> anon wrote:
    >> > Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
    >> > sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
    >> > like level drain and silver damage.
    >>
    >> > Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
    >> > Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM
    >>
    >> After looking at some of the numbers in the various spoilers, I think
    >> it's a bit more complicated than that. Looking only at the average damage:
    >>
    >> SAVG LAVG
    >> Cleaver: 10.5 12
    >> Stormy/sabre combo: 11 10.5
    >>
    >> This ignores Stormy's level drain and additional silver damage. If I
    >> understand level drain correctly, that would add an additional 4.5
    >> damage to the above. Does that happen every hit?
    >
    >Every hit with Stormy drains a level from any monster not
    >resistant to level drain. A few of the most powerfull
    >monsters are the few that are immune. The 4.5 is an
    >average itself. The damage is draining a level and for
    >a monster whose max-HP to XP-level ratio is more than
    >4.5 they lose more than 4.5, lower ratios lose less.


    Doesn't Stormbringer also heal the wielder a little when
    it level-drains a monster? Seems there was a big long hairy
    thread about this awhile back.


    >
    >> But it's a bit more complicated. In Ooog's next incarnation, I was
    >> two-weaponing Stormy and some other sword, and noticed that I wasn't
    >> doing so well in combat. I would still plow through pretty much
    >> everything, but it seemed to take longer than with Cleaver.
    >
    >Maxed luck combined with maxxed skill means never
    >missing. How do you manage to get your weapons up
    >to +5 without maxxed luck and skill? Maxxed luck
    >should happen on the way up from mines end. For a
    >combat wombat maxxed skill the same.

    "...I wasn't doing so well in combat..." may mean he
    didn't think monsters were dying quickly enough.

    (i.e. I agree with your assessment and am looking for an
    alternate explanation.)

    I check my wielded weapon when monsters last longer than
    feels right. Usually it's the right one and it's just luck.


    Jove
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 14, 2005 11:04:17 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >
    > Cleaver is not a bad early game approach. It is a
    > bad late game approach.

    When does late game start in your opinion? And what means "bad" for you?
    (I assume something like "not the utmost possible effect"? Otherwise it
    would make no sense to me.)

    A current character is now around level 40 (or so) without any weapon
    problems; he carries the +6 Cleaver at expert level.

    > When to switch strategies in the mid-game is a judgement issue.

    Not sure whether to switch weapon for Moloch or the Planes. Yet it's ok.

    Janis
    July 17, 2005 9:14:42 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Eric the Viking <eaolson@gmail.com> wrote:

    > So from now on, I'm sticking with Cleaver until I have the resources to
    > up the enchantments on the weapons.

    Or maybe you should consider not playing chaotics, so you won't get
    Stormbringer anymore, and avoid this dilemma altogether.

    But of course what you really need to maximize damage are gauntlets of
    power; with these, your damage bonus simply becomes insane, regardless
    of what weapon you use.

    BTW, does the damage bonus also apply to thrown daggers? If so, I think
    that would make barbarians pretty much invincible, since their only real
    weakness is in range attack. Though they can only advance dagger to
    basic, this would be more than compensated for by their numerous damage
    and speed bonuses.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 17, 2005 1:19:21 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    anon wrote:

    > BTW, does the damage bonus also apply to thrown daggers?

    Yes.

    > If so, I
    > think that would make barbarians pretty much invincible, since their
    > only real weakness is in range attack. Though they can only advance
    > dagger to basic, this would be more than compensated for by their
    > numerous damage and speed bonuses.

    The real problem being that you won't get three or four hits per round.

    --
    Boudewijn.

    --
    "I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
    as my signature..." - Me
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 17, 2005 4:47:18 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    anon <anon@anon.com> writes:

    > Eric the Viking <eaolson@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > > So from now on, I'm sticking with Cleaver until I have the resources to
    > > up the enchantments on the weapons.
    >
    > Or maybe you should consider not playing chaotics, so you won't get
    > Stormbringer anymore, and avoid this dilemma altogether.
    >
    > But of course what you really need to maximize damage are gauntlets of
    > power; with these, your damage bonus simply becomes insane, regardless
    > of what weapon you use.

    And that makes the double-damage weapons more valuable, because the +6
    to damage from the gauntlets also gets doubled. Grayswandir, Frost
    Brand, and Fire Brand are thus the best weapons once you get a big
    damage bonus. (An early weapon wish for a barbarian is best used on
    Mjollnir, since barbarians can get to expert.)

    --
    David Grabiner, grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu, http://remarque.org/~grabiner
    Baseball labor negotiations FAQ: http://remarque.org/~grabiner/laborfaq.html
    Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
    Klein Glassworks, Torus Coffee and Donuts, Projective Airlines, etc.
    July 17, 2005 10:29:58 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@removethisword.home.nl> wrote:

    > The real problem being that you won't get three or four hits per round.

    Indeed, and after some calculations, I've come to the conclusion that
    spear is actually the most effective throwing weapon for barbarians,
    based on damage-to-weight ratio, and accounting for the barbarian's
    one-attack-per-round limitation:

    SDAM LDAM WGT WGT/SDAM WGT/LDAM
    elven dagger 1-5 1-3 10 3.33 5
    dagger 1-4 1-3 10 4 5
    elven spear 2-8 2-9 30 6 5.45
    spear 2-7 2-9 30 6.67 5.45
    axe 3-8 3-6 60 10.91 13.33

    So a spear is basically equivalent to 3 daggers. I was surprised that an
    axe was so poor as a throwing weapon; you'd think it would a little more
    damage at least, considering its weight alone.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 17, 2005 10:29:59 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    anon <anon@anon.com> writes:

    > Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@removethisword.home.nl> wrote:
    >
    > > The real problem being that you won't get three or four hits per round.
    >
    > Indeed, and after some calculations, I've come to the conclusion that
    > spear is actually the most effective throwing weapon for barbarians,
    > based on damage-to-weight ratio, and accounting for the barbarian's
    > one-attack-per-round limitation:
    >
    > SDAM LDAM WGT WGT/SDAM WGT/LDAM
    > elven dagger 1-5 1-3 10 3.33 5
    > dagger 1-4 1-3 10 4 5
    > elven spear 2-8 2-9 30 6 5.45
    > spear 2-7 2-9 30 6.67 5.45
    > axe 3-8 3-6 60 10.91 13.33
    >
    > So a spear is basically equivalent to 3 daggers. I was surprised that an
    > axe was so poor as a throwing weapon; you'd think it would a little more
    > damage at least, considering its weight alone.

    But then you need to add your damage bonus, which a barbarian will have
    from his strength if nothing else. A dagger with a +3 strength damage
    bonus average 5.5, while a spear with a +3 bonus averages 7.5.

    --
    David Grabiner, grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu, http://remarque.org/~grabiner
    Baseball labor negotiations FAQ: http://remarque.org/~grabiner/laborfaq.html
    Shop at the Mobius Strip Mall: Always on the same side of the street!
    Klein Glassworks, Torus Coffee and Donuts, Projective Airlines, etc.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 18, 2005 1:11:33 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    anon wrote:
    > Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@removethisword.home.nl> wrote:
    >
    >>The real problem being that you won't get three or four hits per round.
    >
    > Indeed, and after some calculations, I've come to the conclusion that
    > spear is actually the most effective throwing weapon for barbarians,

    (The last DiamondRobin barbarian had 2 silver spears, not even used once.)

    > based on damage-to-weight ratio, and accounting for the barbarian's
    > one-attack-per-round limitation:
    >
    > SDAM LDAM WGT WGT/SDAM WGT/LDAM
    > elven dagger 1-5 1-3 10 3.33 5
    > dagger 1-4 1-3 10 4 5
    > elven spear 2-8 2-9 30 6 5.45
    > spear 2-7 2-9 30 6.67 5.45
    > axe 3-8 3-6 60 10.91 13.33
    >
    > So a spear is basically equivalent to 3 daggers. I was surprised that an
    > axe was so poor as a throwing weapon; you'd think it would a little more
    > damage at least, considering its weight alone.

    Would you please explain that?

    I'd read your data differently; the more interesting value seems to me to
    be DAM/WGT (as opposed to WGT/DAM). Then spears would be slightly worse
    than daggers. E.g., average large damage of 3 daggers (weight 30) is 6,
    and the spear (weight 30) is at 5.5 large damage.
  • Did I miss anything?

    Janis

  • Ignoring the probability distribution, and ignoring possible monster
    regeneration effects during the 2 additional turns you need for the daggers.
    July 18, 2005 6:17:48 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    David J. Grabiner <grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:

    > But then you need to add your damage bonus, which a barbarian will have
    > from his strength if nothing else. A dagger with a +3 strength damage
    > bonus average 5.5, while a spear with a +3 bonus averages 7.5.

    I considered only the weapon skill bonus, because that's the only
    non-constant variable in calculating the total damage. My point was that
    because a barbarian's rate of fire is limited to one per round for any
    weapon, even though dagger and bow have nominally better
    damage-to-weight, the spear does much more damage in the same time, with
    comparable damage-to-weight.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 18, 2005 10:33:39 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    anon wrote:
    > David J. Grabiner <grabiner@alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:
    >
    > > But then you need to add your damage bonus, which a barbarian will have
    > > from his strength if nothing else. A dagger with a +3 strength damage
    > > bonus average 5.5, while a spear with a +3 bonus averages 7.5.
    >
    > I considered only the weapon skill bonus, because that's the only
    > non-constant variable in calculating the total damage. My point was that
    > because a barbarian's rate of fire is limited to one per round for any
    > weapon, even though dagger and bow have nominally better
    > damage-to-weight, the spear does much more damage in the same time, with
    > comparable damage-to-weight.

    Except, er, daggers can stack. Which means it's much easier for you to
    get a nice stack of 10 +6 daggers, and also it takes up only 1 slot in
    your inventory. At that point, convenience outweighs, I think.

    Although I probably start looking for other sources of range attacks
    for barbarians. Like running head straight into the monsters.

    -K
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 18, 2005 12:26:13 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    anon wrote:
    >
    > ... I've come to the conclusion that spear is actually
    > the most effective throwing weapon for barbarians ...

    Tale from a college anthropology course. There was once
    a categorization of cultures into 3 levels (long since
    obsolete). Savagery was typified by stone tools and
    spears. Barbarism was typified by hand made metal tools
    and bow. Civilization was typified by writing. By this
    old system, spear would be great for cavemen, bows for
    barbarians, spells for the civilized folks. As someone
    who has played spellcasting Valks, this strikes me now
    as even funny than when I first heard it in class lo these
    many years ago.

    > SDAM LDAM WGT WGT/SDAM WGT/LDAM
    > elven dagger 1-5 1-3 10 3.33 5
    > dagger 1-4 1-3 10 4 5
    > elven spear 2-8 2-9 30 6 5.45
    > spear 2-7 2-9 30 6.67 5.45
    > axe 3-8 3-6 60 10.91 13.33

    The table should have damage-to-weight not weight-to-damage.
    You want how much damage can be caused by the same weight
    carried.

    > So a spear is basically equivalent to 3 daggers.

    1 spear, 30 weight, 6.67/5.45 damage. 3 daggers, 30
    weight, 9.99/15 damage. Per weight daggers win. That's
    not the issue. your interesting point is if only one
    is thrown you want the most damage consistant with being
    able to carry a bunch.

    > I was surprised that an axe was so poor as a throwing
    > weapon; you'd think it would a little more
    > damage at least, considering its weight alone.

    One of the things I do outside of work and Nethack is
    play in occasional "Viking games". They started as a
    spoof on Scottish/Highland games but they were so much fun
    I know of groups that now do them during annual campouts.
    The games include axe throwing for accuracy, throwing for
    accuracy, boat rowing for speed (at camp grounds on water)
    and so on* Getting an axe to stick into a wooden target
    is a feat of serious skill. A thrown axe should do damage
    that is greatly effected by skill.

    * My favorite Viking games contest is mead brewing. Home
    brewed mead can beat any commercial wine I've tried. So
    far I tried it once. A year later I had a gallon of
    "5 blessed potions of confusion". A year, I don't have
    the patience ...

    Kremti wrote:
    >
    > Except, er, daggers can stack. Which means it's much
    > easier for you to get a nice stack of 10 +6 daggers ...

    Spears stack as well. Each type will stack together.
    After finishing a sacfest in minetown that used create
    monster spells, my characters have seen stacks of elven
    spears that contain several. Use cancellation, and you'll
    be able to stack every regular/elven/dwarvish/silver spear
    in the game into 4 stacks.

    Daggers are a LOT more common than spears, though. If
    I waited until I had 10 spears of any one type before
    bringing them up to +6, I do it on the way back up with
    the Amulet. If I waited until I have 10 daggers of any
    one type before +6, I'd need to do it with orcish, then
    again with regular, then again with elven daggers and all
    those before reaching Medusa.

    David J. Grabiner wrote:
    >
    > And that makes the double-damage weapons more valuable,
    > because the +6 to damage from the gauntlets also gets
    > doubled. Grayswandir, Frost Brand, and Fire Brand are
    > thus the best weapons once you get a big damage bonus.

    None of those are on my list to throw. Monsters tend to
    pick up thrown weapons. The last thing I want is to throw
    Greyswandir at a line of advancing orcs and have each one
    pick it up and wield it as the line advances. If I don't
    kill them all remotely I'm facing a battle with Greyswandir
    on the wrong side.

    Long ago I used to play "Sting pong". Throw Sting at a
    line of advancing orcs. The next one would pick up Sting
    and throw it at me. Back and forth with Sting doing
    double damage to them not to me. Somewhere along the line
    orcs stopped picking up elven weapons and vice versa and
    that system dissappeared from the game.

    The principle applies, though. Do you really want to
    throw weapons that do the maximum damage possible? How
    good an idea is it to thrown a blessed +6 silver spear
    at a row of monsters likely to throw it back at you? I
    do thrown daggers constantly, but missiles do carry risk.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 18, 2005 4:17:51 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    anon@anon.com wrote:

    > Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@removethisword.home.nl> wrote:
    >
    >> The real problem being that you won't get three or four hits per round.
    >
    > Indeed, and after some calculations, I've come to the conclusion that
    > spear is actually the most effective throwing weapon for barbarians,
    > based on damage-to-weight ratio, and accounting for the barbarian's
    > one-attack-per-round limitation:
    >
    > SDAM LDAM WGT WGT/SDAM WGT/LDAM
    > elven dagger 1-5 1-3 10 3.33 5
    > dagger 1-4 1-3 10 4 5
    > elven spear 2-8 2-9 30 6 5.45
    > spear 2-7 2-9 30 6.67 5.45
    > axe 3-8 3-6 60 10.91 13.33
    >
    > So a spear is basically equivalent to 3 daggers.

    .... if both are +0. The real power to thrown daggers for classes that can
    become skilled in them is when the character enchants a stack of them.
    (I'm not disagreeing with your analysis, mind).

    --
    Benjamin Lewis

    All what we got here is American made.
    It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed. -- FZ
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 18, 2005 11:27:00 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Kremti wrote:
    > anon wrote:
    >
    >>I considered only the weapon skill bonus, because that's the only
    >>non-constant variable in calculating the total damage. My point was that
    >>because a barbarian's rate of fire is limited to one per round for any
    >>weapon, even though dagger and bow have nominally better
    >>damage-to-weight, the spear does much more damage in the same time, with
    >>comparable damage-to-weight.
    >
    > Except, er, daggers can stack.

    As do spears.

    > Which means it's much easier for you to
    > get a nice stack of 10 +6 daggers, and also it takes up only 1 slot in
    > your inventory. At that point, convenience outweighs, I think.
    >
    > Although I probably start looking for other sources of range attacks
    > for barbarians. Like running head straight into the monsters.

    Janis
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 19, 2005 6:21:47 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >
    > The principle applies, though. Do you really want to
    > throw weapons that do the maximum damage possible? How
    > good an idea is it to thrown a blessed +6 silver spear
    > at a row of monsters likely to throw it back at you? I
    > do thrown daggers constantly, but missiles do carry risk.

    I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
    one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...

    "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
    /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */


    Janis
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 19, 2005 6:21:48 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    > I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
    > one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
    >
    > "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
    > /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */

    Especially considering that barbarians are unskilled in sling, and so
    have -2 to damage. Depending on how that's calculated it seems to me to be:
    (d3 - 2) x 2 = 2 max
    (d3 x 2) - 2 = 4 max
    I'm not sure where the double-damage is incorporated.

    It seems rather silly to me for the Heart to convey stealth when
    carried, too. You have to be level 14 to go on the Quest, but
    barbarians get stealth at level 15 anyway.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 19, 2005 7:45:15 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    >
    > I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
    > one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
    >
    > "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
    > /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
    >
    Well, it's not like it's good for anything else.

    --
    John Campbell
    jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 19, 2005 10:36:46 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Doug Freyburger wrote:
    <snip>
    > Kremti wrote:
    > >
    > > Except, er, daggers can stack. Which means it's much
    > > easier for you to get a nice stack of 10 +6 daggers ...
    >
    > Spears stack as well. Each type will stack together.
    > After finishing a sacfest in minetown that used create
    > monster spells, my characters have seen stacks of elven
    > spears that contain several. Use cancellation, and you'll
    > be able to stack every regular/elven/dwarvish/silver spear
    > in the game into 4 stacks.

    Eh, you know, I never actually collected spears so I never knew they
    stacked...Maybe I should play with a spear character next.

    >
    > Daggers are a LOT more common than spears, though. If
    > I waited until I had 10 spears of any one type before
    > bringing them up to +6, I do it on the way back up with
    > the Amulet. If I waited until I have 10 daggers of any
    > one type before +6, I'd need to do it with orcish, then
    > again with regular, then again with elven daggers and all
    > those before reaching Medusa.

    Which is definitely is an advantage. What I do with 100's of daggers
    (with the dagger oriented characters like rogues) is that I start to
    attempt to over-enchant above +7, since, well, they are dime a dozen.
    Enchant all of them up to +7, and split the stack and see them
    vaporized (and hope some survive...).

    Of course, that's when you have abundance of daggers and
    scrolls/markers to blow. But with characters who can machinegun the
    daggers it's kinda cool after you cover all the basics with your
    resources.

    -K
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 19, 2005 5:31:04 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    John Campbell wrote:

    > Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    >> John Campbell wrote:
    >>
    >>> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
    >>>> one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
    >>>>
    >>>> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
    >>>> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
    >>>>
    >>> Well, it's not like it's good for anything else.
    >> DiamonRobin #invoked it often to levitate (especially across Juiblex'
    >> swamp where he had been thrown back a couple of times on his way up).
    >
    > I've used it for levitation, too, but even there it's debatable
    > whether it's an improvement over a ring. It's more convenient than
    > swapping rings around, and it doesn't take up a finger, but rings don't
    > sulk and refuse to work if you use them too often.
    >
    > And, yeah, that's a bit of a step up from "not good for anything
    > else", but, really, "maybe as useful as a ring of levitation" isn't
    > quite what I'm looking for in a Quest Artifact.

    Indeed; I think that if that artifact is not completely modified, at the
    very least an exception should be made and the "... is ignoring you" should
    be eliminated for it. I don't think this would even come close to making
    it overpowered.

    --
    Benjamin Lewis

    All what we got here is American made.
    It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed. -- FZ
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 19, 2005 5:31:48 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Quoting anon <anon@anon.com>:
    >But of course what you really need to maximize damage are gauntlets of
    >power; with these, your damage bonus simply becomes insane, regardless
    >of what weapon you use.

    Really? So, tell us, how much more is it than with Str 18/** ?
    --
    David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
    Today is First Teleute, July.
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 19, 2005 6:26:32 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Richard Bos wrote:

    > Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >> Eric the Viking wrote:
    >>> It seems rather silly to me for the Heart to convey stealth when
    >>> carried, too. You have to be level 14 to go on the Quest, but
    >>> barbarians get stealth at level 15 anyway.
    >>
    >> It's getting more and more strange, indeed.
    >>
    >> <low voice> Could it be that in this case the Devteam exceptionally
    >> did *not* think of everything? </low voice>
    >
    > No, I think they did. Barbarians do not need a powerful artifact, since
    > they're such hard-hitters by nature, and they shouldn't rely on magical
    > help such as the Valk's Orb of Fate.

    Yeah, but c'mon... let's enumerate the Heart's "powers":

    - acts as a luckstone. If a barbarian can complete the quest, he/she can
    complete the mines, where a luckstone is guaranteed.
    - confers "stealth". As noted, this is moot after the barbarian gets to
    level 15, a mere stone's throw (rimshot) away from where he/she must be
    for the quest in the first place.
    - +d5 to hit if thrown/slung, *2 damage if slung at a monster. What's the
    freakin' point?
    - can toggle levitation. This is the *only* marginally useful feature, and
    it can't even be relied on.

    Now let's compare to a Valkyrie. You claim these are not as "hard
    hitters"; however, they can become expert in longswords, where barbarians
    can only become skilled, and they can become skilled in #twoweapon, where
    barbarians can only get to basic. Already, I'd consider that a *huge*
    advantage for Valkyries, especially considering all the nice artifact
    longswords.

    Now lets look at the Valk quest artifact:

    - acts as a luckstone
    - confers "warning" (which I prefer to stealth)
    - confers half spell damage and half physical damage (nothing even remotely
    equivalent in B artifact)
    - instead of levitation when invoked, allows level teleport. I'd rank this
    at least an order of magnitude above levitation.

    --
    Benjamin Lewis

    All what we got here is American made.
    It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed. -- FZ
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 19, 2005 11:57:32 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    John Campbell wrote:
    > Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    >>
    >> I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
    >> one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
    >>
    >> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
    >> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
    >>
    > Well, it's not like it's good for anything else.

    DiamonRobin #invoked it often to levitate (especially across Juiblex'
    swamp where he had been thrown back a couple of times on his way up).

    Janis
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 20, 2005 12:02:58 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Eric the Viking wrote:
    > Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    >
    >> I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
    >> one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
    >>
    >> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
    >> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
    >
    > Especially considering that barbarians are unskilled in sling, and so
    > have -2 to damage.

    Wow, and I haven't even considered that this could be the case. 8-o

    > It seems rather silly to me for the Heart to convey stealth when
    > carried, too. You have to be level 14 to go on the Quest, but
    > barbarians get stealth at level 15 anyway.

    It's getting more and more strange, indeed.

    <low voice> Could it be that in this case the Devteam exceptionally
    did *not* think of everything? </low voice>

    Janis
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 20, 2005 12:02:59 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    After going to <http://tinyurl.com/2tnqw&gt;
    Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote

    >Eric the Viking wrote:
    >> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    >>
    >>> I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
    >>> one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
    >>>
    >>> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
    >>> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
    >>
    >> Especially considering that barbarians are unskilled in sling, and so
    >> have -2 to damage.
    >
    >Wow, and I haven't even considered that this could be the case. 8-o
    >
    >> It seems rather silly to me for the Heart to convey stealth when
    >> carried, too. You have to be level 14 to go on the Quest, but
    >> barbarians get stealth at level 15 anyway.
    >
    >It's getting more and more strange, indeed.
    >
    ><low voice> Could it be that in this case the Devteam exceptionally
    >did *not* think of everything? </low voice>

    What about non-barbarians wishing for The Heart of Ahriman?
    --
    no, i didn't forget the 'F's
    http://www.geocities.com/jerk_o2002
    http://www.geocities.com/nameless_mod
    -My Diablo 2 Mod
    http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bunny.php
    -My theme song
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 20, 2005 12:04:05 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    > John Campbell wrote:
    >
    >> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
    >>> one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
    >>>
    >>> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
    >>> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
    >>>
    >> Well, it's not like it's good for anything else.
    >
    >
    > DiamonRobin #invoked it often to levitate (especially across Juiblex'
    > swamp where he had been thrown back a couple of times on his way up).

    I've used it for levitation, too, but even there it's debatable
    whether it's an improvement over a ring. It's more convenient than
    swapping rings around, and it doesn't take up a finger, but rings don't
    sulk and refuse to work if you use them too often.

    And, yeah, that's a bit of a step up from "not good for anything
    else", but, really, "maybe as useful as a ring of levitation" isn't
    quite what I'm looking for in a Quest Artifact.

    --
    John Campbell
    jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 20, 2005 1:05:24 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > Eric the Viking wrote:
    > > It seems rather silly to me for the Heart to convey stealth when
    > > carried, too. You have to be level 14 to go on the Quest, but
    > > barbarians get stealth at level 15 anyway.
    >
    > It's getting more and more strange, indeed.
    >
    > <low voice> Could it be that in this case the Devteam exceptionally
    > did *not* think of everything? </low voice>

    No, I think they did. Barbarians do not need a powerful artifact, since
    they're such hard-hitters by nature, and they shouldn't rely on magical
    help such as the Valk's Orb of Fate.

    Richard
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 20, 2005 1:23:12 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    David Damerell wrote:
    > Quoting anon anon@anon.com:

    >> But of course what you really need to maximize damage are gauntlets
    >> of power; with these, your damage bonus simply becomes insane,
    >> regardless of what weapon you use.

    > Really? So, tell us, how much more is it than with Str 18/** ?

    A chaotic barbarian named Oogh would have me suspect to be an orc.

    In that case, gauntlets of power would certainly help:

    18/50: +1 to hit, +3 to damage
    18/00: +3 to hit, +6 to damage

    Note that gauntlets of *dexterity* do make a difference between 18 (+4
    to hit bonus) and 25 (+11 bonus).

    --
    Boudewijn.

    --
    "I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
    as my signature..." - Me
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 20, 2005 1:44:31 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    jerk-o wrote:
    > After going to <http://tinyurl.com/2tnqw&gt;
    > Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote
    >>Eric the Viking wrote:
    >>>Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
    >>>>one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
    >>>>
    >>>> "The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
    >>>> /* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
    >>>
    >>>Especially considering that barbarians are unskilled in sling, and so
    >>>have -2 to damage.
    >>
    >>Wow, and I haven't even considered that this could be the case. 8-o
    >>
    >>>It seems rather silly to me for the Heart to convey stealth when
    >>>carried, too. You have to be level 14 to go on the Quest, but
    >>>barbarians get stealth at level 15 anyway.
    >>
    >>It's getting more and more strange, indeed.
    >>
    >><low voice> Could it be that in this case the Devteam exceptionally
    >>did *not* think of everything? </low voice>
    >
    > What about non-barbarians wishing for The Heart of Ahriman?

    I don't do that, but would anyone wishing for artifacts wish for that one?

    Janis
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 20, 2005 5:30:15 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Benjamin Lewis wrote:
    > John Campbell wrote:
    >>Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    >>>John Campbell wrote:
    >>>>Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>I dare to take over the thread to extend your question; why would
    >>>>>one do the following which is documented in the source as follows...
    >>>>>
    >>>>>"The Heart of Ahriman", LUCKSTONE
    >>>>>/* this stone does double damage if used as a projectile weapon */
    >>>>
    >>>>Well, it's not like it's good for anything else.
    >>>
    >>>DiamonRobin #invoked it often to levitate (especially across Juiblex'
    >>>swamp where he had been thrown back a couple of times on his way up).
    >>
    >> I've used it for levitation, too, but even there it's debatable
    >>whether it's an improvement over a ring. It's more convenient than
    >>swapping rings around, and it doesn't take up a finger, but rings don't
    >>sulk and refuse to work if you use them too often.
    >>
    >> And, yeah, that's a bit of a step up from "not good for anything
    >>else", but, really, "maybe as useful as a ring of levitation" isn't
    >>quite what I'm looking for in a Quest Artifact.

    It was really of some use to keep the fingers free, but basically I agree
    of course.

    I was just surprised by the wording, since I consider the damage thing
    completely unimportant, and the levitation - though not *necessary* in
    this form
  • - at least had been of some use.

    > Indeed; I think that if that artifact is not completely modified, at the
    > very least an exception should be made and the "... is ignoring you" should
    > be eliminated for it. I don't think this would even come close to making
    > it overpowered.

    Though interestingly, as I've written, I was thrown back beyond Juiblex'
    level a couple of times, I had to pass the swamp in quite short time
    intervals. The artifact did not once refused to do its jobs; so maybe
    the timeout[**] is enough for the purpose.

    Janis

  • A separae ring of levitation (and stealth, and a luckstone) does not
    mean any significant increase of weight, just a slight inconvenience.

    [**] During that game I even thought that the timeout might be disabled
    for this artifact, because of the actual short-term reactivation.
    But I haven't checked that in the source and at that moment - with
    The Amulet - it was of minor interest to me. ;-)
    Anonymous
    a b α HP
    July 20, 2005 1:37:21 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Richard Bos wrote:

    > Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:
    >
    >> Now let's compare to a Valkyrie. You claim these are not as "hard
    >> hitters";
    >
    > No, I don't. I claim that Barbs have a mythological reason to shun
    > magical help, which Valks don't. Yes, this makes Valks even easier than
    > Barbs. Life is not fair.

    Oh, I didn't realize you were speaking from a "role-playing" rather than
    "game-balance" perspective. In that case, I entirely agree with you, and
    it makes a good case for the Heart's levitation only sometimes working as
    well -- it reflects the barbarian stereotype of relying on magic as little
    as possible.

    Now that I think of it, I also *like* the fact that the "game-balance"
    between classes is not "fair" -- it gives NetHack some sort of
    correspondence to games with "skill levels"; but it is even more
    interesting because in NetHack's case, the class->skill mapping is not the
    same over various individuals.

    --
    Benjamin Lewis

    All what we got here is American made.
    It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed. -- FZ
    !