Barbarian weapon suggestions?

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Ooog the chaotic Barbarian currently has a plethora of artifact weapons.
This is after finding a mamby-pamby lawful priest in the Mines,
working up the courage and the HP to take him on, doing so, sacrificing
an entire mountain of corpses to Set, using up an entire bag of tricks,
accidentally ticking off the Minestown guards, sacrificing *them* to
Set, summoning Jubilex, summoning Yeenoghu, and getting exactly
diddly-point-squat from Set.

I gave up on that temple, then found one to Set on level 12 and started
sacrificing away. First corpse, BAM, Cleaver. Next, BAM, Stormbringer.
Popping down to the next level only to find a bones level with
Mjollnir *and* Excalibur (thank you Missy25, whoever you are). Popped
back up to discover them both cursed (naturally) and to accidentally
sacrifice and get Dragonsbane. So now I have:

+0 Cleaver
+0 Stormbringer
+? Mjollnir, cursed
+? Excalibur, cursed
+0 Dragonsbane

Truly an embarrasment of riches. But I am at a loss as to which weapon
I should use. Cleaver seems to do some nice damage. Stormbringer
doesn't do so much damage, but is more fun. Dragonsbane not so
great, but two-weaponable. Mojo does kick-butt damage, but is cursed
and I'm not sure of the enchantment.

My gut feeling is to go with Mojo, since barbarians can get war hammer
up to Expert level. I *think* that's a two-handed skill so no
two-weaponing with Stormy or DB. Another option is to two-weapon Stormy
and some other non-artifact weapon which I don't yet have. Or to stick
with Cleaver.

Any suggestions?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:

> So now I have:
>
> +0 Cleaver
> +0 Stormbringer
> +? Mjollnir, cursed
> +? Excalibur, cursed
> +0 Dragonsbane
>
> Truly an embarrasment of riches. But I am at a loss as to which weapon
> I should use. Cleaver seems to do some nice damage. Stormbringer
> doesn't do so much damage, but is more fun. Dragonsbane not so
> great, but two-weaponable. Mojo does kick-butt damage, but is cursed
> and I'm not sure of the enchantment.
>
> My gut feeling is to go with Mojo, since barbarians can get war hammer
> up to Expert level. I *think* that's a two-handed skill so no
> two-weaponing with Stormy or DB. Another option is to two-weapon Stormy
> and some other non-artifact weapon which I don't yet have. Or to stick
> with Cleaver.

I'm kind of partial to Excalibur, especially if I don't already have
automatic searching. It does decent damage, too, and a helping of
level-drain resistance on the side.

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening

 

[ANON]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking <eaolson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ooog the chaotic Barbarian currently has a plethora of artifact weapons.
> This is after finding a mamby-pamby lawful priest in the Mines,
> working up the courage and the HP to take him on, doing so, sacrificing
> an entire mountain of corpses to Set, using up an entire bag of tricks,
> accidentally ticking off the Minestown guards, sacrificing *them* to
> Set, summoning Jubilex, summoning Yeenoghu, and getting exactly
> diddly-point-squat from Set.

> I gave up on that temple, then found one to Set on level 12 and started
> sacrificing away. First corpse, BAM, Cleaver. Next, BAM, Stormbringer.
> Popping down to the next level only to find a bones level with
> Mjollnir *and* Excalibur (thank you Missy25, whoever you are). Popped
> back up to discover them both cursed (naturally) and to accidentally
> sacrifice and get Dragonsbane. So now I have:

> +0 Cleaver
> +0 Stormbringer
> +? Mjollnir, cursed
> +? Excalibur, cursed
> +0 Dragonsbane

> Truly an embarrasment of riches. But I am at a loss as to which weapon
> I should use. Cleaver seems to do some nice damage. Stormbringer
> doesn't do so much damage, but is more fun. Dragonsbane not so
> great, but two-weaponable. Mojo does kick-butt damage, but is cursed
> and I'm not sure of the enchantment.

> My gut feeling is to go with Mojo, since barbarians can get war hammer
> up to Expert level. I *think* that's a two-handed skill so no
> two-weaponing with Stormy or DB. Another option is to two-weapon Stormy
> and some other non-artifact weapon which I don't yet have. Or to stick
> with Cleaver.

> Any suggestions?

Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
like level drain and silver damage.

Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM

Unfortunately, I don't think you can use Mojo because it's not aligned.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:
> So now I have:
>
> +0 Cleaver
> +0 Stormbringer
> +? Mjollnir, cursed
> +? Excalibur, cursed
> +0 Dragonsbane
>
> Truly an embarrasment of riches. But I am at a loss as to which weapon
> I should use. Cleaver seems to do some nice damage. Stormbringer
> doesn't do so much damage, but is more fun. Dragonsbane not so
> great, but two-weaponable. Mojo does kick-butt damage, but is cursed
> and I'm not sure of the enchantment.

In a current game I got Cleaver (now +6 and expert) and then Frostbrand.
At this stage Cleaver is very effective, so I abstained from enchanting
Frostbrand (currently +1) and use Cleaver, also for roleplaying reason.

With both of the other interesting swords, Stormbringer and Excalibur
(both having nice properties!)■, you can only get to skilled. You may
want to first identify the enchantment of Excalibur and decide then.

Mjollnir is also nice, of course. All the first four weapons are basically
a choice to go with. Do you plan to use a shield (for reflection)?

> My gut feeling is to go with Mojo, since barbarians can get war hammer
> up to Expert level. I *think* that's a two-handed skill so no

???

> two-weaponing with Stormy or DB. Another option is to two-weapon Stormy
> and some other non-artifact weapon which I don't yet have. Or to stick
> with Cleaver.

With the exception of Cleaver none of these artifact weapons are two-handed.

> Any suggestions?

I'd take all the four with me, and switch if necessary. Enchant Cleaver
_or_ Mjollnir first and enhance your weapon proficiency in it to become
expert, then enchant and enhance one of the other swords (IMO Excalibur,
then Stormy).

Yours is the final decision.

Janis

■ In my current game the level drain occurred to me quite often but was
never a problem since the critter died quite fast and restored my level.
So the level drain protection is currently not relevant (for me). Neither
is the searching property since I have a ring.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

anon wrote:
> Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
> sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
> like level drain and silver damage.
>
> Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
> Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM
>
> Unfortunately, I don't think you can use Mojo because it's not aligned.

Unfortunately, silver sabers are fairly rare. I often don't find one
even by the time I get to the castle, and often wind up wishing for one.

Cleaver actually does some pretty good damage for a single weapon. Mojo
beats it a bit, and using it is no problem, if you don't mind getting
blasted when you pick it up, or switch to it as a primary weapon.

Ooog the Barbarian, however, met his maker at the pointy end of a
captain's voulge in Fort Ludios.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:
<snip>
>
> +0 Cleaver
> +0 Stormbringer
> +? Mjollnir, cursed
> +? Excalibur, cursed
> +0 Dragonsbane
<snip>

My pick would have been either Excalibur or Stormy with an off hand
weapon (Prefarably silver saber, but it doesn't really have to
be...silver dagger does almost as well once you enchant it up to
+6-7ish and get your strength to max, or plain old longsword will do).


-K

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:23:16 GMT
Eric the Viking <eaolson@gmail.com> wrote:
>Unfortunately, silver sabers are fairly rare. I often don't find one
>even by the time I get to the castle, and often wind up wishing for one.

I usually polypile for them. you can also get (S) silver long swords, which IMHO are better.

>Cleaver actually does some pretty good damage for a single weapon. Mojo
>beats it a bit, and using it is no problem, if you don't mind getting
>blasted when you pick it up, or switch to it as a primary weapon.

Mojo is nice... but stormbringer is better.

>Ooog the Barbarian, however, met his maker at the pointy end of a
>captain's voulge in Fort Ludios.

I have died there (TM)*




(not really trademarked, but would make a nice shirt:



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| }-----} }-----} --|--|-- | |
--- }| |}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}| |} | | |
| }--------------------------------} | | |
| }}}|^ ^^ ^ ^^^ ^| |}}} - | |
------- }| ^ ^^ ^ | |} | | |
| | }| ^ ^^ ^^ | \ |} | | |
| + }}}|^ ^ ^ ^ | |}}} - | |
| | }--------------------------------} | | |
| | }| |}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}| |} | | |
| ------ }-----} }-----} --+--+-- | |
| | ...| }}}}}}} }}}}}}} | | |
| | .^.| | | |
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I have died there...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

noah bedford wrote:
> On 11 Jul 2005 07:23:13 -0700
> "Kremti" <kremti@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >My pick would have been either Excalibur or Stormy with an off hand
> >weapon (Prefarably silver saber, but it doesn't really have to
> >be...silver dagger does almost as well once you enchant it up to
> >+6-7ish and get your strength to max, or plain old longsword will do).
>
> Or a silver longsword (S)

Except that in you can two-weapon two artifact weapons. In that
case I might as well go both Excalibur AND Stormy.

-K

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:
> anon wrote:
>
> > Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
> > sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
> > like level drain and silver damage.

Cleaver's bonus isn't doubled but it is large. So it
is junk only when compared to a highly enchanted
artifact that does double it's damage.

> > Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
> > Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM

Do not underestimate the level draining feature of Stormy.
It gives fewer insta-kills but in a knock-down drag-out
fight with a large powerfull monster level drain makes a
huge difference.

> > Unfortunately, I don't think you can use Mojo because it's not aligned.

Not an issue once it has been uncursed.

> Unfortunately, silver sabers are fairly rare. I often don't find one
> even by the time I get to the castle, and often wind up wishing for one.

Where's your chaotic spirit? ;^) The watch captain and
soldier captains have 50-50 long sword or silver saber.
If you don't get one in the mines, by the time you've
completed the Castle you should have been left one in the
will of an unexpecting but cooperative captain.

> Ooog the Barbarian, however, met his maker at the pointy end of a
> captain's voulge in Fort Ludios.

I often leave Ludios several times before it empties.
It is also very important to get to the space near the
main door before the horde of soldiers arrive. Like
the movie "300 Spartans", find a narrow point and it is
possible to defeat a huge army one soldier at a time.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> [...] imperial cubic libraries of congress?
^^^^^^^^
Have the British finally re-conquered Washington?

Or should that be "New Liverpool"?

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 11 Jul 2005 07:23:13 -0700
"Kremti" <kremti@gmail.com> wrote:

>My pick would have been either Excalibur or Stormy with an off hand
>weapon (Prefarably silver saber, but it doesn't really have to
>be...silver dagger does almost as well once you enchant it up to
>+6-7ish and get your strength to max, or plain old longsword will do).

Or a silver longsword (S)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 11 Jul 2005 09:37:35 -0700
"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Do not underestimate the level draining feature of Stormy.
>It gives fewer insta-kills but in a knock-down drag-out
>fight with a large powerfull monster level drain makes a
>huge difference.

But as said in an earlier thread, most biggys are level drain resistant.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

>Cyde Weys wrote:
>
>
>
>>[...] imperial cubic libraries of congress?
>>
>>
> ^^^^^^^^
>Have the British finally re-conquered Washington?
>
>Or should that be "New Liverpool"?
>
>
Lately, you'd be hard pressed to find a difference between them.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

noah bedford wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> >Do not underestimate the level draining feature of Stormy.
> >It gives fewer insta-kills but in a knock-down drag-out
> >fight with a large powerfull monster level drain makes a
> >huge difference.
>
> But as said in an earlier thread, most biggys are level drain resistant.

Numerous nasties are not resistant to level drain.

For those that are resistant most are suseptible to
silver. That's why I also gave suggestions on how
to get non-artifact silver sabers. Doing twoweapon
with Stormy and a silver saber handles most of the
issues. Making them both +5 or better, maxing out
your skill level in both and also in twoweapon is
important as well.

There are further problems with two handed weapons
that haven't been discussed in this thread so far.
Once you regularly face magic users and even more so
once you have the Amulet, wielding a cursed two handed
weapon is a serious problem. Having both hands
welded to your weapon means there are a lot of
activities that you can't do.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:
> Ooog the Barbarian, however, met his maker at the pointy end of a
> captain's voulge in Fort Ludios.

The victim of a thrown potion of paralyis, perhaps?

I don't usually get into HP trouble with guards, especially as a
barbarian.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 13 Jul 2005 09:54:18 -0700
"Zwanth" <zwanth@sunflower.com> wrote:

>The victim of a thrown potion of paralyis, perhaps?

And I never get in trouble with potions, because I spend most of my time as part of the wall.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Zwanth wrote:
> The victim of a thrown potion of paralyis, perhaps?
>
> I don't usually get into HP trouble with guards, especially as a
> barbarian.

The guards were no problem. The captain, I think, had sped himself up
somehow (wand, potion) and seemed very fast.

I think after killing about a battalion of soldiers, I got a bit cocky
and just kept slashing at him, rather than taking more drastic measures.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

anon wrote:
> Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
> sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
> like level drain and silver damage.
>
> Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
> Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM

After looking at some of the numbers in the various spoilers, I think
it's a bit more complicated than that. Looking only at the average damage:

SAVG LAVG
Cleaver: 10.5 12
Stormy/sabre combo: 11 10.5

This ignores Stormy's level drain and additional silver damage. If I
understand level drain correctly, that would add an additional 4.5
damage to the above. Does that happen every hit?

But it's a bit more complicated. In Ooog's next incarnation, I was
two-weaponing Stormy and some other sword, and noticed that I wasn't
doing so well in combat. I would still plow through pretty much
everything, but it seemed to take longer than with Cleaver.

When using the two-weapon skill, the to-hit probablity takes the lower
of your primary weapon skill and your two-weapon skill as a modifier.
Since barbarians can only get to basic in 2weap, that means they start
out at a whopping -7 penalty, raised to an average -4 because of
Stormy's +d5 to hit. Cleaver gives an average +2 to hit on top of an
expert's +3. So even though the damage in the combo meal is
comparable's, or slightly better than, Cleaver's, it's hard to hit with
the two weapons.

So from now on, I'm sticking with Cleaver until I have the resources to
up the enchantments on the weapons.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking wrote:
> anon wrote:
> > Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
> > sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
> > like level drain and silver damage.
>
> > Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
> > Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM
>
> After looking at some of the numbers in the various spoilers, I think
> it's a bit more complicated than that. Looking only at the average damage:
>
> SAVG LAVG
> Cleaver: 10.5 12
> Stormy/sabre combo: 11 10.5
>
> This ignores Stormy's level drain and additional silver damage. If I
> understand level drain correctly, that would add an additional 4.5
> damage to the above. Does that happen every hit?

Every hit with Stormy drains a level from any monster not
resistant to level drain. A few of the most powerfull
monsters are the few that are immune. The 4.5 is an
average itself. The damage is draining a level and for
a monster whose max-HP to XP-level ratio is more than
4.5 they lose more than 4.5, lower ratios lose less.

> But it's a bit more complicated. In Ooog's next incarnation, I was
> two-weaponing Stormy and some other sword, and noticed that I wasn't
> doing so well in combat. I would still plow through pretty much
> everything, but it seemed to take longer than with Cleaver.

Maxed luck combined with maxxed skill means never
missing. How do you manage to get your weapons up
to +5 without maxxed luck and skill? Maxxed luck
should happen on the way up from mines end. For a
combat wombat maxxed skill the same.

> When using the two-weapon skill, the to-hit probablity takes the lower
> of your primary weapon skill and your two-weapon skill as a modifier.
> Since barbarians can only get to basic in 2weap, that means they start
> out at a whopping -7 penalty, raised to an average -4 because of
> Stormy's +d5 to hit. Cleaver gives an average +2 to hit on top of an
> expert's +3. So even though the damage in the combo meal is
> comparable's, or slightly better than, Cleaver's, it's hard to hit with
> the two weapons.
>
> So from now on, I'm sticking with Cleaver until I have the resources to
> up the enchantments on the weapons.

Oh, right. At this point you only have your luck
maxxed out.

Cleaver is not a bad early game approach. It is a
bad late game approach. When to switch strategies in
the mid-game is a judgement issue.

 

[Guest]

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Jove wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> Doesn't Stormbringer also heal the wielder a little when
> it level-drains a monster? Seems there was a big long hairy
> thread about this awhile back.

Stormy protects against level drain, but it does not heal
in vanilla. I do not know about Slash'em.

 

[Guest]

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Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > Cleaver is not a bad early game approach. It is a
> > bad late game approach.
>
> When does late game start in your opinion? And what means "bad" for you?
> (I assume something like "not the utmost possible effect"? Otherwise it
> would make no sense to me.)

The beauty of Nethack is everything is a judgement
call and everyone can make different judgement
calls.

In my opinion, the late game starts when have a kit of
items good enough to go below the Castle and start
searching for the vibratign square. Maybe I'll
encounter enough dragons in Ludios to get the right
DSM, maybe I'll need a wish. Maybe I'll exit the
mines with weapons I'll use the rest of the game,
maybe I'll do more altar camping later. And so on.
If I arrive on the Medusa level and I have enough
equipment that it is a cake-walk, I may as well
consider that I am in th elate game.

The one time I'm positive it is late game is when
I've gotten the amulet. The bad effects of having
both of your hands welded to a two-handed weapon
are the bad effects. Yes, it can be fixed with a
holy water in your main inventory. But once you
have the amulet the stock of holy water starts to
decrease.

> A current character is now around level 40 (or so) without any weapon
> problems; he carries the +6 Cleaver at expert level.
>
> > When to switch strategies in the mid-game is a judgement issue.
>
> Not sure whether to switch weapon for Moloch or the Planes. Yet it's ok.

At least when you have the amulet. I would switch
earlier to get max skill at twoweapon. Maybe stay
with two weapons from then on, maybe go back to
Cleaver once max skill at twoweapon, but at least
be ready for the curses from the Amulet.

 

[Guest]

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On 14 Jul 2005 08:44:42 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
<dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Eric the Viking wrote:
>> anon wrote:
>> > Cleaver is junk (i.e. +d6 damage only). Even Stormbringer and a silver
>> > sabre will do comparable damage, in addition to all the other good stuff
>> > like level drain and silver damage.
>>
>> > Cleaver: 3-18 SDAM and 4-20 LDAM
>> > Stormbringer + silver sabre: 4-18 SDAM and 4-17 LDAM
>>
>> After looking at some of the numbers in the various spoilers, I think
>> it's a bit more complicated than that. Looking only at the average damage:
>>
>> SAVG LAVG
>> Cleaver: 10.5 12
>> Stormy/sabre combo: 11 10.5
>>
>> This ignores Stormy's level drain and additional silver damage. If I
>> understand level drain correctly, that would add an additional 4.5
>> damage to the above. Does that happen every hit?
>
>Every hit with Stormy drains a level from any monster not
>resistant to level drain. A few of the most powerfull
>monsters are the few that are immune. The 4.5 is an
>average itself. The damage is draining a level and for
>a monster whose max-HP to XP-level ratio is more than
>4.5 they lose more than 4.5, lower ratios lose less.


Doesn't Stormbringer also heal the wielder a little when
it level-drains a monster? Seems there was a big long hairy
thread about this awhile back.


>
>> But it's a bit more complicated. In Ooog's next incarnation, I was
>> two-weaponing Stormy and some other sword, and noticed that I wasn't
>> doing so well in combat. I would still plow through pretty much
>> everything, but it seemed to take longer than with Cleaver.
>
>Maxed luck combined with maxxed skill means never
>missing. How do you manage to get your weapons up
>to +5 without maxxed luck and skill? Maxxed luck
>should happen on the way up from mines end. For a
>combat wombat maxxed skill the same.

"...I wasn't doing so well in combat..." may mean he
didn't think monsters were dying quickly enough.

(i.e. I agree with your assessment and am looking for an
alternate explanation.)

I check my wielded weapon when monsters last longer than
feels right. Usually it's the right one and it's just luck.


Jove

 

[Guest]

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Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> Cleaver is not a bad early game approach. It is a
> bad late game approach.

When does late game start in your opinion? And what means "bad" for you?
(I assume something like "not the utmost possible effect"? Otherwise it
would make no sense to me.)

A current character is now around level 40 (or so) without any weapon
problems; he carries the +6 Cleaver at expert level.

> When to switch strategies in the mid-game is a judgement issue.

Not sure whether to switch weapon for Moloch or the Planes. Yet it's ok.

Janis

 

[ANON]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Eric the Viking <eaolson@gmail.com> wrote:

> So from now on, I'm sticking with Cleaver until I have the resources to
> up the enchantments on the weapons.

Or maybe you should consider not playing chaotics, so you won't get
Stormbringer anymore, and avoid this dilemma altogether.

But of course what you really need to maximize damage are gauntlets of
power; with these, your damage bonus simply becomes insane, regardless
of what weapon you use.

BTW, does the damage bonus also apply to thrown daggers? If so, I think
that would make barbarians pretty much invincible, since their only real
weakness is in range attack. Though they can only advance dagger to
basic, this would be more than compensated for by their numerous damage
and speed bonuses.

 

[Guest]

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anon wrote:

> BTW, does the damage bonus also apply to thrown daggers?

Yes.

> If so, I
> think that would make barbarians pretty much invincible, since their
> only real weakness is in range attack. Though they can only advance
> dagger to basic, this would be more than compensated for by their
> numerous damage and speed bonuses.

The real problem being that you won't get three or four hits per round.

--
Boudewijn.

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"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me