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Endgame hints?

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July 14, 2005 1:59:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

I'm standing at the level one of the dungeon with the AOY just about to
climb the stairs to start the endgame.
Trouble is, I've got this far a couple of times and always get killed.
My major trouble I always get battered by Archons spawning constantly
and summoning monsters. Are there any tips for getting around them?
I'm a Valk level 30 with about 350hp, AC -43 and wielding FB. I've got
some cursed SOGD to find the teleports and some potions of full
healing.
Any hints?

More about : endgame hints

July 14, 2005 5:57:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cheers, I'll remember that for the future but maybe not for this
game......
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 7:05:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Spud wrote on 13 Jul 2005 21:59:42 -0700:
> I'm standing at the level one of the dungeon with the AOY just about to
> climb the stairs to start the endgame.

> Any hints?

Wear a ring of conflict.

--
"Sometimes I stand by the door and look into the darkness. Then I
am reminded how dearly I cherish my boredom, and what a precious
commodity is so much misery." -- Jack Vance
Related resources
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 8:16:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 13 Jul 2005 21:59:42 -0700, "Spud"
<colin_fuidge@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I'm standing at the level one of the dungeon with the AOY just about to
>climb the stairs to start the endgame.
>Trouble is, I've got this far a couple of times and always get killed.
>My major trouble I always get battered by Archons spawning constantly
>and summoning monsters. Are there any tips for getting around them?
>I'm a Valk level 30 with about 350hp, AC -43 and wielding FB. I've got
>some cursed SOGD to find the teleports and some potions of full
>healing.
>Any hints?

Would a cursed scroll of light help? IIRC Archons only
summon if they can see you.

I regularly blow through the astral planes as a level 30
wizard with no Archon troubles. Here is what I actually do.
Some of it may not be important.

- Do *not* fight unless absolutely necessary. If you're
not surrounded, it's not necessary. (This is why
MagicBane is a good ascension weapon.)

- Be "very fast" from pumped up spell of haste self.
Alternatives: speed boots, blessed potions of speed

(You *do* have all but one of the speed potions
you've found, haven't you? You're allowed to use
one for alchemy.) If using potions of speed or have
limited mana for spell of haste self, use them just
before Plane of Air. Or when you get into Archon
trouble.

(Does anyone anyone ever die on the Plane of Earth?)

- #jump with jumping boots on planes of earth/fire *and*
the astral plane. (I've #jumped past Pestilence
without being touched coming or going.)
- requires light source, usually a magic lamp, but
oil lamp, brass lantern, spell/wand of light,
or Sunsword will do.
(NB. Sunsword has been lit the last few times
I've inherited it from a dead Angel. It provided
light even though it wasn't wielded. I suspect
it would have gone out if wielded then unwielded.
- You must be able to see your landing point. (Hence
the light.) Can be a problem with Archon stunning
you, so try the cursed scroll of light above to
stop that. Then jump to lit square after using
Wand/spell of teleport.

- Pumped up spell of detect monsters at "skilled" skill
level -> Always know where every monster on the level
is. Very useful for avoiding the worst monsters.

- Permanently invisible (alternative: displaced).

- Wear a ring of conflict. Very important.

- Using wand/spell of teleport to clear a lane when
necessary. Very important. (Wand/spell of death
may work as well.)

- Confused scrolls of gold detection on all four planes
before astral.
- Specials for Plane of Air:
- Magic map to find where clouds are thinnest.
- When engulfed by air elemental get out immediately.
Time spent fighting is better spent travelling.
Use:
- Wand/spell of teleport
- Wand/spell of polymorph
- Wand/spell of death

- Specials for Plane of fire:
- Wands/spell of cold to make a path *when necessary*.
Also for freezing any lava I might end up in.
- Wands of digging for any lava I might be stuck in.
- Means of controlled levitation for when picked up by
vortices, etc. They can drop you in lava.

- I tend to jump towards the edge of the map -> stay
out of Archon range. In the middle of the map
there are more places an Archon can cause trouble
from.

- Specials for Plane of Water
- Controlled means of levitation so can go directly to
the portal.
- Extra scrolls of gold detection to help track down
the portal.
- Wands of secret door detection - may be useless.
- Blessed genocide ";". (A comfort in times of worry
and confusion.)

- Specials for the Astral Plane:
- Don't be wearing a ring of conflict when you enter.
- Close ("C", spell/wand of locking) doors & break
(wand/spell of force bolt, kick) them so you can
jump through at an angle. Remember, you may be
coming back this way.
- Start #jumping towards the nearest altar asap.
Don't let the level fill up with monsters and it
will be easier to #jump past any Rider.
- A ring of free action along with every potion of
paralysis you've collected will let you carve up
any Rider standing in a doorway. Wield the potion
of paralysis & hit the rider with it. Then re-wield
your weapon & commence surgery.


I've never engraved Elbereth or used a scroll of scare
monster on the astral planes because it's never been
necessary. YMMV so bring wands of lightning/fire just
in case.

Other things I rarely use but may come in handy:
- spell/scroll of charm monster
- pumped up spell of confuse monster
- spell of cause fear



IMAO it's better to be fast & #jumping than just very
fast because you can travel faster that way. (Only valid
on the planes of earth/fire and the Astral Plane.)




Jove
July 14, 2005 8:43:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cheers for the replies, especially Jove. I did get to the final level
but Pestillence killed me.
I think the only reason I got there was the ring of conflict and
unbelievably the second trap on the fire plane was the portal.....
I've been playing the game a bit better recently and been close to
ascending a few times and hopefully I'll make it soon.

Cheers
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 1:36:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1121317182.719150.234680@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, Spud
wrote:

> My major trouble I always get battered by Archons spawning constantly
> and summoning monsters. Are there any tips for getting around them?
> I'm a Valk level 30 with about 350hp, AC -43 and wielding FB. I've got
> some cursed SOGD to find the teleports and some potions of full
> healing.
> Any hints?

Don't get to XP 30. Archons are much less frequent if your level is lower.

--
Panu
"You haven't really been anywhere until you've got back home",
Twoflower in "The Light Fantastic"
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 3:47:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Panu Lahtinen <pnuu@iki.fi> writes:
> Don't get to XP 30. Archons are much less frequent if your level is lower.

Even in the best case of a Sanctum at DL 45, you'd need to be XL 4 or
below to entirely prevent Archons (difficulty 26) appearing in the
Planes; I don't recommend this as an endgame strategy. Since the
distribution of random monsters is flat (after adjustment for
non-level-related factors), the only practical difference would be the
lower bound: the difference between XL 5 and XL 30 in this example is
that monsters with difficulties between 7 and 9 inclusive would have
dropped off the bottom end of the valid range. (For a Sanctum at DL 53,
9 and 10.) This doesn't seem to be sufficient to make Archons
"much less frequent".

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "Hello. Well, that was the sound of Roger's Wah-Wah Rabbits, you heard :
: them eating endives there, that's very cheap at this time of the year. :
: [...] But now we're going to talk about shirts." -- Bonzo Dog Band :
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 5:39:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Spud" <colin_fuidge@hotmail.com> writes:

> I'm standing at the level one of the dungeon with the AOY just about to
> climb the stairs to start the endgame.
> Trouble is, I've got this far a couple of times and always get killed.
> My major trouble I always get battered by Archons spawning constantly
> and summoning monsters. Are there any tips for getting around them?
> I'm a Valk level 30 with about 350hp, AC -43 and wielding FB. I've got
^^^^^^^^
> some cursed SOGD to find the teleports and some potions of full
> healing.

I indicated what I believe to be one of the main problems.
If you're just ~level 14, my experience is that few, if any,
archons will pester you.

> Any hints?

You could get some nice level drain if that is not interfering
with your skills. Second, if you have the free reserves, carry
some cursed scrolls of genocide. Once on astral, reverse-genocide
purple worms and use conflict. With a little luck, some archons
will be swallowed. Another way is to make a lot of friends;
reading confused scrolls of taming is a good start and might help
you to develop a 'soft barriere' between you and the archons.
And of course, wearing a blindfold ist not too bad an idea, in
particular if you are warned.

Best,
Jakob
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 8:28:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1121341408.264059.196110@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
colin_fuidge@hotmail.com says...
> Cheers for the replies, especially Jove. I did get to the final level
> but Pestillence killed me.

If Pestilence got you you'll ascend next time. Curious, why did
Pestilence get you? Out of healing stuff, (blessed) unicorn horns,
useful spells? All of them probably but still curious ;-)


Eskimo

--
//------------------------------
//Remove tämä all the way to and including soomee to mail directly.
//Ascended:W,V (genopolywish),P(ill ath), T,K,H,S,B,C,P,W
(naked),Ro,Ra,A,W,almost pacifist A
//In progress:p AIN
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 9:12:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 7/14/05 6:47 AM, Dylan O'Donnell wrote:
> Panu Lahtinen <pnuu@iki.fi> writes:
>
>>Don't get to XP 30. Archons are much less frequent if your level is lower.
>
>
> Even in the best case of a Sanctum at DL 45, you'd need to be XL 4 or
> below to entirely prevent Archons (difficulty 26) appearing in the
> Planes; I don't recommend this as an endgame strategy. Since the
> distribution of random monsters is flat (after adjustment for
> non-level-related factors), the only practical difference would be the
> lower bound: the difference between XL 5 and XL 30 in this example is
> that monsters with difficulties between 7 and 9 inclusive would have
> dropped off the bottom end of the valid range. (For a Sanctum at DL 53,
> 9 and 10.) This doesn't seem to be sufficient to make Archons
> "much less frequent".
>
I've forwarded this post on to Eva with a suggestion that there be an
inclusion on the "myths and facts" page. It comes up often enough to be
considered a significant "myth."

--
Kevin Wayne

"Art is a tremendous means by which painfully guarded individuals bare
their souls." --Steve Hindalong
Anonymous
July 14, 2005 11:43:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 14 Jul 2005 04:43:28 -0700, "Spud"
<colin_fuidge@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Cheers for the replies, especially Jove.

You're most welcome. Sorry it didn't help you ascend.
Commiserations on your death.

Further hints (hope they're more useful than the last.):

- You can pray on the Astral Planes (all of them).

- You can wear a ring of conflict on the Astral Plane.
Just don't wear it when you enter the Astral Plane.

- A helm of opposite alignment makes at least one of the
wrong altars more useful on Astral. (If your god won't
help you when you've got the amulet to the Astral Plane
(You did try #praying, right?), then forget him/her.)

- Knights have #jumping built-in!
- How fast would a knight #jumping on a hasted war-horse
move?
- A level 30 knight with the Magic Mirror of Merlin
casts magic missile for:
- an average of 96 points of damage. AVERAGE.
- Max damage is 192!
- Trapping a monster against a wall may double damage
- Doing this without reflection or magic resistance
is suicidal!
- But it may treble if you have reflection!
- Or hit a line of monsters.

- Items to save for the Ascension run:
- All but one of the potions of speed you find.
- Bless these & use them on the Plane of Air or when
in trouble.
- Every wand of teleport with charges remaining:
- Every potion of paralysis:
- Bless them.
- If you have a ring of free action, wield against
the riders.
- If no ring of free action - #adjust them to
"t" throw them from a distance with "tt"
- Spell of cure sickness at 0% failure is worth trying
for. (Robe, practice, spellcasting armor, etc.)
- Higher character levels do NOT significantly increase
chances of Archon creation.



- If you have MagicBane
- wield it when not in melee
- Do NOT melee if you can RUN.
- You can engrave in one turn semi-permanently with it
if MagicBane is not cursed.
- If you're wielding MagicBane, it resists 95% of curses
thrown at you.
- ENCHANT MAGICBANE TO +6/7!
- <http://www.steelypips.org/nethack/341/art2-341.html&gt;
shows that MagicBane does 4 more points of damage per
hit at +6 than at +2.
- If you hit 100 times, that's +400 points of damage.
- 1000 +4000
- +7 is more difficult to get. Almost requires
hitting a disenchanter or cursing MagicBane to
dull it to +5 from +6.
- If you prefer scared/confused/cancelled/probed
monsters to dead monsters then -
- Engrave Elbereth (scares monsters)
- Cast spell of confuse monster
- Lasts until you hit a monster
- Can be pumped up
- Cast spell of cause fear
- Zap wand of probing to probe the monster you want,
when you want.
- Spell/wand of cancellation to cancel the monsters
you want, when you want.
- You can #twoweapon (silver saber/dagger?)
- If not #twoweaponing then -
- You can wear a shield.
- like a [SoR so you can wear an "oLS
- or a +7 Elven shield
- Set MagicBane as your secondary weapon,
- Switch ('x') when not meleeing,
- Do NOT melee if you can RUN.

(Could someone get the bit about enchanting MagicBane onto
the Nethack Myths page?)

>I did get to the final level
>but Pestillence killed me.

Damn.

>I think the only reason I got there was the ring of conflict and
>unbelievably the second trap on the fire plane was the portal.....

The Real Nethack God giveth, the RNG taketh away.

>I've been playing the game a bit better recently and been close to
>ascending a few times and hopefully I'll make it soon.
>
>Cheers

This is controversial, but you may want to make a backup
copy of your save file right after you exit the dungeon.
If you die, restore it. When you play it, enter eXplore
('X') mode RIGHT AWAY.

This will NOT get you an ascension. It will let you
practice the Astral Planes with a "real" character.
Which can't be done otherwise short of being a wizard
with wizard mode.

Unless some kind wizard mode expert makes up some
sample wizmode setup files for practicing the Astral Planes.
YANI: utility to create a wizmode setup file from a save
file. Builtin to Nethack would be better yet.

If you do this, you will only get out of it what you
put into it.



One last hint. If you get to the right altar on the
Astral Plane, save your game and copy the save file.
(I don't even have a screen shot of my 1st ascension.)

Then restore and offer the amulet before YASD.


Jove
Anonymous
July 15, 2005 8:11:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:
[ ...many good suggestions... ]
>
> - Items to save for the Ascension run:
> - All but one of the potions of speed you find.
> - Bless these & use them on the Plane of Air or when
> in trouble.

Preferable use speed boots. Potions of speed are good for alchemy to
increase your HP's.

> - Every wand of teleport with charges remaining:

But beware; *not* for the Riders!

> - If you have MagicBane
> - ENCHANT MAGICBANE TO +6/7!
> - <http://www.steelypips.org/nethack/341/art2-341.html&gt;

We read, the good special effects will decrease noticable if enchanted.

> shows that MagicBane does 4 more points of damage per
> hit at +6 than at +2.

Not much compared to the decrease in special attacks, IMO. YMMV.

Especially in the endgame, confusing, stunning, scaring, cancelling, is
of much worth since you want to be fast, and not to engage extensively
with every high level critter; run, teleport them away, whatever... but
don't engage in a fight to death in melee - you don't need the 4 pts.
more of _melee_ damage here.

Regardless of this point, generally having a second artifact for damage
(as you suggested) is indeed good, just in case.

> - If you hit 100 times, that's +400 points of damage.
> - 1000 +4000

You won't have the opportunity to hit 100 (or even 1000) times; even
the toughest creatures need no more than 10 (or so) hits - make it 15
to take the fewer damage into account, but consider the magic effects,
then. (A note aside: for the summoned insects this calculation is anyway
irrelevant, since any artifact will do.)

> - If you prefer scared/confused/cancelled/probed
> monsters to dead monsters then -
> - Engrave Elbereth (scares monsters)
> - Cast spell of confuse monster
> - Lasts until you hit a monster
> - Can be pumped up
> - Cast spell of cause fear
> - Zap wand of probing to probe the monster you want,
> when you want.
> - Spell/wand of cancellation to cancel the monsters
> you want, when you want.

Generally possible, but she was a Valkyrie, no spellcaster.

> - Do NOT melee if you can RUN.

Most important advice!! (And especially in the endgame.)

> (Could someone get the bit about enchanting MagicBane onto
> the Nethack Myths page?)

Which part about it is a myth?

In the past decade the enchantment of Magicbane has been thouroughly
discussed; what's the new point?

Janis
Anonymous
July 15, 2005 8:30:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:
>
> IIRC Archons only summon if they can see you.

That would be interesting. Can anyone confirm this?

> - Do *not* fight unless absolutely necessary. If you're
> not surrounded, it's not necessary. (This is why
> MagicBane is a good ascension weapon.)

Aha. I read your other posting differently.

> (Does anyone anyone ever die on the Plane of Earth?)

Not that I recall. But I once died on Plane of Fire due to my stolen
MR confering artifact and a finger of death. That could as well have
happened on Plane of Earth.

> - #jump with jumping boots on planes of earth/fire *and*
> the astral plane. (I've #jumped past Pestilence
> without being touched coming or going.)

Heheheh. :-)

> - Specials for Plane of fire:
> - Wands/spell of cold to make a path *when necessary*.
> Also for freezing any lava I might end up in.

Yes, but why bother; you are already levitating from the level before
(i.e. the Plane of Air).

> - Wands of digging for any lava I might be stuck in.

You can dig through lava? (That's interesting; I wouldn't have though
to try that out.)

> - Specials for the Astral Plane:
> - Start #jumping towards the nearest altar asap.

Hmm.. For me, in practice, they are quite the same regarding distance.
I choose the one guarded by the least unsympathetic rider.

> Don't let the level fill up with monsters and it
> will be easier to #jump past any Rider.

If you don't have means to jump the summoned insects are quite a good
shield.

> IMAO it's better to be fast & #jumping than just very
> fast because you can travel faster that way.

Interesting point. May be worth a wish for the boots.

Janis
July 15, 2005 9:40:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:

> (Does anyone anyone ever die on the Plane of Earth?)

Choked to death on some flavour of troll once, yes. Most embarrassing
death ever.
Anonymous
July 16, 2005 1:57:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Sean wrote:

> Jove wrote:
>
>> (Does anyone anyone ever die on the Plane of Earth?)
>
> Choked to death on some flavour of troll once, yes. Most embarrassing
> death ever.

Rodney did me in on the Plane of Earth once. One of two times I was killed
by him-- the other time was when I was relearning my spells on the way to
the planes and read a cursed spellbook by mistake.

Raisse, killed by the Wizard of Yendor

--
irina@valdyas.org LegoHack: http://www.valdyas.org/irina/nethack/
Status of Raisse (piously neutral): Level 8 HP 63(67) AC -3, fast.
Anonymous
July 16, 2005 3:38:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:11:26 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
<Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Jove wrote:
>[ ...many good suggestions... ]

Thanks.

>>
>> - Items to save for the Ascension run:
>> - All but one of the potions of speed you find.
>> - Bless these & use them on the Plane of Air or when
>> in trouble.
>
>Preferable use speed boots. Potions of speed are good for alchemy to
>increase your HP's.

Note the "all but one". That "one" is for alchemy.
Alchemy is much more efficient that way as well.

Speed boots are better for fighting. Don't fight on the
Ascension run if you can help it.

Jumping while fast travels faster than speed boots.
Jumping while very fast travels over *twice as fast* as
speed boots.

- Plane of Earth plane, where it's unimportant.
- Plane of Fire, where it's very important for:
- Leaving the plane before Archons appear
- Escaping Archons
- Astral Plane where it's very important for:
- Getting to the first altar before the level
fills up with monsters (just like sneaking through
the graveyard in Moloch's Sanctum)
- Getting past the Riders without being touched.

Speed boots are better on the Plane of Air and the Plane
of Water *if* you're not:
- already very fast.
- using levitation boots

Remember, jump, don't fight. You can easily cut your
time on the planes of Fire and the Astral Plane in half
by jumping.


>
>> - Every wand of teleport with charges remaining:
>
>But beware; *not* for the Riders!

Excellent point. Not directly, no, but you could zap a
wand of teleport to make a path to go by the Rider, then
#jump.

>
>> - If you have MagicBane
>> - ENCHANT MAGICBANE TO +6/7!
>> - <http://www.steelypips.org/nethack/341/art2-341.html&gt;
>
>We read, the good special effects will decrease noticable if enchanted.

The only special attack that decreases is stunning.
From +2 to +7 probing increases from 5.5% to 25.5%
stunning decreases from 14.5% to 9.5%
scaring increases from 2.7% to 3.6%
confusion increases from 2.0% to 3.0%


I'd argue that the decrease in the stunning special effect
is *not* noticable, especially in light of the following:

In <86k86aqv76.fsf@strackenz.spod-central.org> on Date: 28
Feb 2001
22:49:49, Dylan O'Donnell states:

>It's not true to say that there's _no_ effect; the effect of stunning
>on monsters is just different. A stunned monster:
>
>gives you a +2 bonus to hit it;
>cannot "block your (clumsy) kick";
>has less chance of escaping death by drawbridge.
>
>It's true enough that this isn't all that much of an effect,
>however.

Looking at the source code makes my eyes bleed. However,
a quick check seems to support the above.

From <http://www.steelypips.org/nethack/341/art2-341.html&gt;:

>The STUN effect causes an
>additional d4 of damage; if none of the later effects have
>occurred and been successful, it stuns the monster (or you,
>for 3 (more) turns

MagicBane at +2 instead of +7 gives a 5% more (14.5% vs
9.5%) chance of 3 more turns of +2 bonus to hit, if not
resisted.


>
>> shows that MagicBane does 4 more points of damage per
>> hit at +6 than at +2.
>
>Not much compared to the decrease in special attacks, IMO. YMMV.

The chance of special attacks *increases* from +2 (21.4%)
to +6 (34.3%).
Probe from 5.5% to 22.3%
Scare from 2.7% to 3.2%

Stun does decrease slightly from 14.5% to 12.7%.


If these effects *are* that important, there are easy
and much more reliable ways to get them when you want on
the monster you want.


From my original post:

>> - If you prefer scared/confused/cancelled/probed
>> monsters to dead monsters then -
>> - Engrave Elbereth (scares monsters)
>> - Cast spell of confuse monster
>> - Lasts until you hit a monster
>> - Can be pumped up
>> - Cast spell of cause fear
>> - Zap wand of probing to probe the monster you want,
>> when you want.
>> - Spell/wand of cancellation to cancel the monsters
>> you want, when you want.

Let me repeat that these effects are available *on
demand*, on the monster you, when you want, reliably.
Instead of low random probability from MagicBane.
The big question though, is *if* you want.

And MagicBane's special melee effects are easily trumped
by MagicBane's ability to engrave Elbereth in one turn
guaranteed whenever you want.


>
>Especially in the endgame, confusing, stunning, scaring, cancelling, is
>of much worth since you want to be fast, and not to engage extensively
>with every high level critter; run, teleport them away, whatever... but
>don't engage in a fight to death in melee - you don't need the 4 pts.
>more of _melee_ damage here.

As noted above, the only special attack that decreases is
stunning.
From +2 to +7 probing increases from 5.5% to 25.5%
stunning decreases from 14.5% to 9.5%
scaring increases from 2.7% to 3.6%
confusion increases from 2.0% to 3.0%

And stunning won't help you in melee except by 3 turns
of a +2 chance to hit.

If you're not fighting in melee, then special effects you
don't get aren't worth more than damage points you don't
get. They *can't* be.

If you're blocked by a monster and want to evade (again,
from my original post):

>> - If you prefer scared/confused/cancelled/probed
>> monsters to dead monsters then -
>> - Engrave Elbereth (scares monsters)
>> - Cast spell of confuse monster
>> - Lasts until you hit a monster
>> - Can be pumped up
>> - Cast spell of cause fear

Note again that MagicBane engraves Elbereth in one turn
guaranteed. Much better than a 20% chance of a special
effect that can be resisted and may not help you anyway.

A wand of teleport works even better, except on the
Riders. And they're much more likely to resist the
special effects. So you want them dead, dead, dead.
Ten hits at +7 is 40 more points of damage over +2.

>
>Regardless of this point, generally having a second artifact for damage
>(as you suggested) is indeed good, just in case.

Thanks. Even #twoweaponing with better (#enhanced,
enchanted) non-artifact weapons in probably better in melee.
The biggest problem is the switching, which the nethack
interface makes difficult, just as it does with jumping.

>
>> - If you hit 100 times, that's +400 points of damage.
>> - 1000 +4000
>
>You won't have the opportunity to hit 100 (or even 1000) times; even
>the toughest creatures need no more than 10 (or so) hits - make it 15
>to take the fewer damage into account, but consider the magic effects,
>then. (A note aside: for the summoned insects this calculation is anyway
>irrelevant, since any artifact will do.)

Every time you hit with a +7 MagicBane you do 4 more
points of damage than if you hit with a +4 MagicBane.
What's the reasoning for limiting it to a single monster?

I'm not saying it's wrong to do so, just that the
justification is not evident.

>
>> - Do NOT melee if you can RUN.
>
>Most important advice!! (And especially in the endgame.)
>
>> (Could someone get the bit about enchanting MagicBane onto
>> the Nethack Myths page?)
>
>Which part about it is a myth?
>
>In the past decade the enchantment of Magicbane has been thouroughly
>discussed; what's the new point?
>

From my original post:

> - <http://www.steelypips.org/nethack/341/art2-341.html&gt;
> shows that MagicBane does 4 more points of damage per
> hit at +6 than at +2.
> - If you hit 100 times, that's +400 points of damage.
> - 1000 +4000
> - If you prefer scared/confused/cancelled/probed
> monsters to dead monsters then -
> - Engrave Elbereth (scares monsters)
> - Cast spell of confuse monster
> - Lasts until you hit a monster
> - Can be pumped up
> - Cast spell of cause fear
> - Zap wand of probing to probe the monster you want,
> when you want.
> - Spell/wand of cancellation to cancel the monsters
> you want, when you want.

Summary:

Four more points of damage on every hit for the rest
of the game. Should easily add up to thousands more damage
points.

There are much easier, more reliable, on-demand,
targetable methods of getting MagicBane's special effects.

(Even so most players, with or without MagicBane, don't
bother with them because they're not worth the minor effort.
In which case they're certainly not worth giving up
thousands of extra damage points.)

In this post I've added that the probability of a magical
effect *increases* with MagicBane's enchantment.
Particularly the best ones of scaring and confusion.
(Whether or not this is a "new" point is up to the
reader to decide.)


Jove
Anonymous
July 16, 2005 4:04:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:30:14 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
<Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Jove wrote:
>>
>> IIRC Archons only summon if they can see you.
>
>That would be interesting. Can anyone confirm this?
>
>> - Do *not* fight unless absolutely necessary. If you're
>> not surrounded, it's not necessary. (This is why
>> MagicBane is a good ascension weapon.)
>
>Aha. I read your other posting differently.

Oops, already responded to your other post. Apologies
if it seems heavy-handed.

>
>> - #jump with jumping boots on planes of earth/fire *and*
>> the astral plane. (I've #jumped past Pestilence
>> without being touched coming or going.)
>
>Heheheh. :-)

It's a treasured memory.

>
>> - Specials for Plane of fire:
>> - Wands/spell of cold to make a path *when necessary*.
>> Also for freezing any lava I might end up in.
>
>Yes, but why bother; you are already levitating from the level before
>(i.e. the Plane of Air).

#jumping! (spell, boots, or knight). Faster travel
means less time on the plane for Archons to appear.


Also easier to escape summoning storms: zap wand of
teleport and move three squares instead of one. Should even
save charges on your wands of teleport. This is also
useful on the Astral Plane.


>
>> - Wands of digging for any lava I might be stuck in.
>
>You can dig through lava? (That's interesting; I wouldn't have though
>to try that out.)

Freeze it first :-). I once stepped into lava on the
Plane of fire. After proudly freezing the lava with my
cone of cold spell I had to burn a wish for a wand of
digging to get myself out. Not a treasured memory.

>> IMAO it's better to be fast & #jumping than just very
>> fast because you can travel faster that way.
>
>Interesting point. May be worth a wish for the boots.
>

My work here is done.


Jove's Jumping Jive.
Anonymous
July 16, 2005 5:20:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:11:26 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
> <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Jove wrote:
>
>>> - If you hit 100 times, that's +400 points of damage.
>>> - 1000 +4000
>>
>>You won't have the opportunity to hit 100 (or even 1000) times; even
>>the toughest creatures need no more than 10 (or so) hits - make it 15
>>to take the fewer damage into account, but consider the magic effects,
>>then. (A note aside: for the summoned insects this calculation is anyway
>>irrelevant, since any artifact will do.)
>
> Every time you hit with a +7 MagicBane you do 4 more
> points of damage than if you hit with a +4 MagicBane.
> What's the reasoning for limiting it to a single monster?

In melee you attack _sequentially_, only a single monster at a time.

  • You need no more than 10 (or so) hits at most to bring down any creature,
    mostly much less hits with appropriately enchanted artifact weapons.

    (If you add 1000 times a 3% value of successful magic attack you get
    really high impressive values. If I haven't overseen anything you've
    just multiplied the value by some factor which makes the outcome look
    great, nothing more.)

    Don't forget you want to run, not engage in melee to long. Make attackers
    unable to attack you effectively, either by death, or by magical means.

    If, for example, you make 12 instead of 8 points damage, you'll engage,
    say 7 rounds instead of 10. Which is a good thing, of course. But if you
    manage to occasionally cancel a monsters special attack (which I value
    high) it's a very good bonus.

    I read the spoiler (that you referred to) that the less interesting magic
    effect (probing) dominates on the hight enchantments, and thus suppresses
    the better magical attacks (cancel, scare, and stun).

    For the suggested enchantments you'll get these values...

    enchantment normal/probe stun/scare/cancel
    +2 65.5% 34.5%
    +7 85.5% 14.5%

    Which is quite a significant difference!

    The drawback increases especially beyond an enchantment of +2 [**]; thus
    the recommendation for that limit.

    > I'm not saying it's wrong to do so, just that the
    > justification is not evident.

    Janis

  • As opposed to, say, breaking a wand.

    [**] From +2 to +3 there is more than 5% of decrease in efficiency, from
    +3 to +5 roughly another 5%, and from +5 to +7 another 10% descrease.
    Anonymous
    July 16, 2005 5:41:51 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove wrote:

    > - You can wear a ring of conflict on the Astral Plane.
    > Just don't wear it when you enter the Astral Plane.

    Er... of course I could be wrong about this, but what I remember is:
    - If you're wearing the ring upon entering the Astral Plane, you don't
    get your angel minion, and instead the game sends in four hostile
    angels adjacent to you. Considering you've got conflict, however, in
    my experience this still isn't that bad.
    - If you put on a ring of conflict while your minion angel is still
    alive, he'll vanish, and the game will send in the four hostile angels
    at that point.
    - If your minion angel is dead, putting on a ring of conflict produces
    no ill effects.

    > - A helm of opposite alignment makes at least one of the
    > wrong altars more useful on Astral. (If your god won't
    > help you when you've got the amulet to the Astral Plane
    > (You did try #praying, right?), then forget him/her.)

    This always feels like cheating to me, but I'm weird that way....


    > - Knights have #jumping built-in!
    <snip>

    This is very, very interesting information, I never thought about jump
    being useful as an ultra-fast means of escape.


    > - Items to save for the Ascension run:
    > - All but one of the potions of speed you find.
    > - Bless these & use them on the Plane of Air or when
    > in trouble.

    As others have said, if you're wearing speed boots these are not useful
    if drunk.

    Others have mentioned not using wands of teleportation against the
    Riders. It doesn't work? I know, and rely upon, the fact that wands
    of death work against Pestilence and Famine. I always hated that they
    made the demon lords immune to it (though I imagine it makes sense with
    Orcus).

    - John H.
    Anonymous
    July 16, 2005 6:46:06 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove wrote:
    > On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:11:26 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
    > <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >>Jove wrote:
    >
    >>>- If you have MagicBane
    >>> - ENCHANT MAGICBANE TO +6/7!
    >>> - <http://www.steelypips.org/nethack/341/art2-341.html&gt;
    >>
    >>We read, the good special effects will decrease noticable if enchanted.

    Just to emphasize the point you apparently missed...

    I wrote "the *good* special effects".

    > The only special attack that decreases is stunning.
    > From +2 to +7 probing increases from 5.5% to 25.5%

    This one is undesirable!

    > stunning decreases from 14.5% to 9.5%
    > scaring increases from 2.7% to 3.6%
    > confusion increases from 2.0% to 3.0%

    You have to take the _added_ percentages (they must sum up to 100%).

    enchantment normal/probe stun/scare/cancel
    +2 65.5% 34.5%
    +7 85.5% 14.5%

    That's roughly a 1-in-3 (at +2) compared to a 1-in-7 (at +7) probability.

    (Compare that to the average damage 9.5 at +2, and 13.4 at +7, that you
    give up in exchange.)

    > As noted above, the only special attack that decreases is
    > stunning.
    > [ the same table as above removed ]

    Dito; wrong summing.

    >>Which part about it is a myth?
    >>
    >>In the past decade the enchantment of Magicbane has been thouroughly
    >>discussed; what's the new point?
    >
    > Summary:
    >
    > [...]
    >
    > In this post I've added that the probability of a magical
    > effect *increases* with MagicBane's enchantment.

    Your caclulation was wrong, you have to add also the probabilities of
    the combined effects!

    > Particularly the best ones of scaring and confusion.

    You forgot stunning and cancellation.

    > (Whether or not this is a "new" point is up to the
    > reader to decide.)

    There's no new point. Your conclusions are based on two wrong points:
    - misinterpretation of the data (as far as I can judge), wrong summing.
    - overestimation of the probing "attack" which suppresses the desirable
    magic attacks (cancel, stun, scare) to a significant extent.

    Janis
    July 16, 2005 7:29:15 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    In article <1121317182.719150.234680@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
    Spud <colin_fuidge@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >Any hints?

    You've already been killed, so here goes:

    Don't wake up the wizard until you're overprepared for the planes.
    You can take forever to get ready, but once you wake up the wizard,
    that's the beginning of the end. There's no time to work on a
    collection of hundreds of scrolls and potions and no time for long
    sac fests. Whatever your level, AC, and HP's are when you wake up
    the wizard, that's probably going to be it for the game.

    Other than errors like falling in lava, AE's engulf attacks, and Pestilence,
    there's really nothing to be afraid of in the end game. Don't be
    surprised when Pesty kills you on Astral -- he's pretty much the only
    thing to be afraid of.
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 4:18:59 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
    > John H. wrote:
    > > Others have mentioned not using wands of teleportation against the
    > > Riders. It doesn't work?
    >
    > No. They have teleport control, and will always teleport next to you
    > instead of away, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Well I'm not *correcting* you per se, just mentioning that I seem to
    remember using wands of teleportation to get rid of Riders. My memory
    isn't clear on the issue, though. It may also have taken multiple
    zaps.

    - John H.
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 4:30:41 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    > John H. wrote:
    > > Others have mentioned not using wands of teleportation against the
    > > Riders. It doesn't work?
    >
    > Worse! It will even resurrect a dead rider corpse and put him adjacent
    > to you.

    Yeah, I think I remember hearing this, but I'm specifically referring
    to live (or whatever Death is) Riders.


    > I never thought that could be the case, and only used the wand of death
    > since I read about it. I would not be astonished and would also find it
    > ok if the wand of death wouldn't work against all the Riders. But ok...

    I'm of the opinion that wands, in Nethack, seem awfully underpowered
    even in the mid game. Wands of Death, being of the most dire type
    besides Wishing, seem like they should work on lots of things, but
    maybe it's enough that the Wizard is succeptable to them. (Forget your
    cloak this morning, Roddy?)


    > To me, an effective death to demons would make me wonder still more than
    > with the Riders. Also ok for me; the behaviour is what I'd expect.

    This is a matter I've wondered about before. What is it about demons
    that makes wands of death not make sense with them? Does Nethack take
    the stance that demons and angels are departed souls in a later form?
    I think that'd make them more like undead. If demons and angels are
    suposed to be something different (which I believe is the historical
    concept), then wands of death should work on them. (Unless they're
    something *really* different, enough so that the idea of "death"
    doesn't make sense with them....)

    I know, someone'll bop along with a comment like "If a demon dies,
    where does he go? He's already in hell!" But I don't think that's
    necessarily an answer.

    - John H.
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 5:33:54 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    John H. wrote:

    > Others have mentioned not using wands of teleportation against the
    > Riders. It doesn't work?

    No. They have teleport control, and will always teleport next to you
    instead of away, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    --
    Boudewijn.

    --
    "I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
    as my signature..." - Me
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 5:38:40 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    John H. wrote:
    >
    > Others have mentioned not using wands of teleportation against the
    > Riders. It doesn't work?

    Worse! It will even resurrect a dead rider corpse and put him adjacent
    to you.

    > I know, and rely upon, the fact that wands
    > of death work against Pestilence and Famine.

    I never thought that could be the case, and only used the wand of death
    since I read about it. I would not be astonished and would also find it
    ok if the wand of death wouldn't work against all the Riders. But ok...

    > I always hated that they
    > made the demon lords immune to it (though I imagine it makes sense with
    > Orcus).

    To me, an effective death to demons would make me wonder still more than
    with the Riders. Also ok for me; the behaviour is what I'd expect.

    Janis
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 3:16:41 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Sun, 17 Jul 2005, Jove wrote:

    > Thus the query "You did try #praying?" If your god won't
    > help you on Astral, your god is unworthy of worshippers.
    > (If roleplaying, roleplay all the way.)

    This brought a line from Conan the Barbarian to mind...

    Whilst talking to his god, Crom, "And if you do not listen, the HELL with
    you!"
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 6:17:31 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    "John H." <JohnWH@gmail.com> writes:
    > Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
    > > John H. wrote:
    > > > Others have mentioned not using wands of teleportation against the
    > > > Riders. It doesn't work?
    > > No. They have teleport control, and will always teleport next to you
    > > instead of away, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    > remember using wands of teleportation to get rid of Riders. My memory

    You may very well remember right.. maybe you used those wands in an
    EARLIER version BEFORE the riders got teleport control.

    > isn't clear on the issue, though. It may also have taken multiple
    > zaps.

    ...or just repeated zapping them long enough. But that's not the best
    strategy these days. When you fail to teleport a rider away, it gets a
    free hit and you didn't do any damage at all..

    --
    Jukka Lahtinen
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 7:24:59 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove wrote:
    > On 16 Jul 2005 13:41:51 -0700, "John H." <JohnWH@gmail.com>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>>- Knights have #jumping built-in!
    >>
    >>This is very, very interesting information, I never thought about jump
    >>being useful as an ultra-fast means of escape.
    >
    > Probably due to the general lack of appreciation of "the
    > joys of bravely running away."

    Wouldn't knights use jumping to quickly come closer to the battle?!
    ;-)

    > Yeah, knights are much more survivable than anyone realizes.
    > The problem is the interface makes jumping difficult for
    > everyone. Why not have ^J work for jumping with the spell,
    > boots, or knight like ^T works for teleporting with the spell,
    > ring or intrinsic?

    If you have numberpad on you may use the key j to jump, or Meta-j
    which is as good as Ctrl-j. I wonder why the Meta-j won't also work
    with numberpad off. OTOH, ^J seems to be yet undefined, and would
    give a better association with ^T, so I agree with your suggestion.

    > Not to mention its uses on Medusa, Juiblex, the Castle
    > and Fort Ludious jumping over water and trapdoors,
    > and holes, trapdoors and narrow water in general.
    >
    > I wonder if it works on land mines? or other traps?
    >
    > Now the downside to jumping:
    > - Clear path to landing point (really tough for knights
    > in a straight corridor).

    Given that knights have intrinsic (restricted) jumping from start
    on I'd liked to see them getting unrestricted jumping with some
    higher experience level.

    >>Others have mentioned not using wands of teleportation against the
    >>Riders. It doesn't work? I know, and rely upon, the fact that wands
    >>of death work against Pestilence and Famine. I always hated that they
    >>made the demon lords immune to it (though I imagine it makes sense with
    >>Orcus).
    >
    > AFAIR, teleporting the Riders gives a 9/10 chance of them
    > ending up next to you.

    A 12/13 chance to bring him close.

    Janis
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 8:23:09 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove wrote:
    > On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:11:26 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
    > <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >>>- Items to save for the Ascension run:
    >>> - All but one of the potions of speed you find.
    >>> - Bless these & use them on the Plane of Air or when
    >>> in trouble.
    >>
    >>Preferable use speed boots. Potions of speed are good for alchemy to
    >>increase your HP's.
    >
    >
    > Note the "all but one". That "one" is for alchemy.
    > Alchemy is much more efficient that way as well.
    >
    > Speed boots are better for fighting. Don't fight on the
    > Ascension run if you can help it.
    >
    > Jumping while fast travels faster than speed boots.
    > Jumping while very fast travels over *twice as fast* as
    > speed boots.
    >
    > - Plane of Earth plane, where it's unimportant.
    > - Plane of Fire, where it's very important for:
    > - Leaving the plane before Archons appear
    > - Escaping Archons
    > - Astral Plane where it's very important for:
    > - Getting to the first altar before the level
    > fills up with monsters (just like sneaking through
    > the graveyard in Moloch's Sanctum)
    > - Getting past the Riders without being touched.
    >
    > Speed boots are better on the Plane of Air and the Plane
    > of Water *if* you're not:
    > - already very fast.
    > - using levitation boots
    >
    > Remember, jump, don't fight. You can easily cut your
    > time on the planes of Fire and the Astral Plane in half
    > by jumping.
    >

    Erm... Speed boots make you Very Fast. So I don't understand what's
    wrong with speed boots. You're basically saying that jumping while
    wearing speed boots is over twice as fast as speed boots. Which is fine,
    but doesn't constitute an argument against speed boots. So it's
    basically wearing speed boots vs quaffing tons of blessed potions of
    speed. I think wearing speed boots is better, since then the potions of
    speed can be alched.

    Note that only Knights can jump like that, otherwise you need a spell of
    jumping or something like that.

    DISCLAIMER: I have not done extensive research into jumping, so don't
    trust me on that.

    --
    ____ (__)
    / \ (oo) -Zarel
    |Moo. > \/
    \____/
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 8:25:46 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    "John H." <JohnWH@gmail.com> writes:
    > - If you put on a ring of conflict while your minion angel is still
    > alive, he'll vanish, and the game will send in the four hostile angels
    > at that point.

    Only if he's in the area, and fails his (base 55%) saving throw
    against _being_ conflicted; it's not automatic. However, wearing
    conflict in his vicinity will cause this effect sooner or later.

    --
    : Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
    : "Hello. Well, that was the sound of Roger's Wah-Wah Rabbits, you heard :
    : them eating endives there, that's very cheap at this time of the year. :
    : [...] But now we're going to talk about shirts." -- Bonzo Dog Band :
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 8:28:23 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    "Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> writes:
    > John H. wrote:
    >
    > > Others have mentioned not using wands of teleportation against the
    > > Riders. It doesn't work?
    >
    > No. They have teleport control, and will always teleport next to you
    > instead of away, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    s/will always teleport/have a 12\/13 chance of teleporting/

    --
    : Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
    : "Hello. Well, that was the sound of Roger's Wah-Wah Rabbits, you heard :
    : them eating endives there, that's very cheap at this time of the year. :
    : [...] But now we're going to talk about shirts." -- Bonzo Dog Band :
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 8:31:07 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> writes:
    > John H. wrote:
    > > Others have mentioned not using wands of teleportation against the
    > > Riders. It doesn't work?
    >
    > Worse! It will even resurrect a dead rider corpse and put him adjacent
    > to you.

    Just revive; only live Riders do the teleport-to-you trick.

    --
    : Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
    : "Hello. Well, that was the sound of Roger's Wah-Wah Rabbits, you heard :
    : them eating endives there, that's very cheap at this time of the year. :
    : [...] But now we're going to talk about shirts." -- Bonzo Dog Band :
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 8:32:20 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Zarel wrote:
    > Jove wrote:
    >
    >> On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:11:26 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
    >> <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>>> - Items to save for the Ascension run:
    >>>> - All but one of the potions of speed you find.
    >>>> - Bless these & use them on the Plane of Air or when in
    >>>> trouble.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Preferable use speed boots. Potions of speed are good for alchemy to
    >>> increase your HP's.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Note the "all but one". That "one" is for alchemy. Alchemy is much
    >> more efficient that way as well.
    >>
    >> Speed boots are better for fighting. Don't fight on the
    >> Ascension run if you can help it.
    >> Jumping while fast travels faster than speed boots. Jumping while
    >> very fast travels over *twice as fast* as
    >> speed boots.
    >>
    >> - Plane of Earth plane, where it's unimportant.
    >> - Plane of Fire, where it's very important for: - Leaving the
    >> plane before Archons appear
    >> - Escaping Archons
    >> - Astral Plane where it's very important for: - Getting to the
    >> first altar before the level
    >> fills up with monsters (just like sneaking through
    >> the graveyard in Moloch's Sanctum)
    >> - Getting past the Riders without being touched.
    >>
    >> Speed boots are better on the Plane of Air and the Plane of Water
    >> *if* you're not:
    >> - already very fast.
    >> - using levitation boots
    >>
    >> Remember, jump, don't fight. You can easily cut your
    >> time on the planes of Fire and the Astral Plane in half by jumping.
    >>
    >
    > Erm... Speed boots make you Very Fast. So I don't understand what's
    > wrong with speed boots. You're basically saying that jumping while
    > wearing speed boots is over twice as fast as speed boots. Which is fine,
    > but doesn't constitute an argument against speed boots. So it's
    > basically wearing speed boots vs quaffing tons of blessed potions of
    > speed. I think wearing speed boots is better, since then the potions of
    > speed can be alched.
    >
    > Note that only Knights can jump like that, otherwise you need a spell of
    > jumping or something like that.
    >
    > DISCLAIMER: I have not done extensive research into jumping, so don't
    > trust me on that.
    >

    Nevermind. Took me long enough to realize you meant we were supposed to
    wear jumping boots...

    --
    ____ (__)
    / \ (oo) -Zarel
    |Moo. > \/
    \____/
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 8:41:12 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jakob Creutzig wrote:
    > "Spud" <colin_fuidge@hotmail.com> writes:
    >
    >
    >>I'm standing at the level one of the dungeon with the AOY just about to
    >>climb the stairs to start the endgame.
    >>Trouble is, I've got this far a couple of times and always get killed.
    >>My major trouble I always get battered by Archons spawning constantly
    >>and summoning monsters. Are there any tips for getting around them?
    >>I'm a Valk level 30 with about 350hp, AC -43 and wielding FB. I've got
    >
    > ^^^^^^^^
    >
    >>some cursed SOGD to find the teleports and some potions of full
    >>healing.
    >
    >
    > I indicated what I believe to be one of the main problems.
    > If you're just ~level 14, my experience is that few, if any,
    > archons will pester you.
    >

    Read other posts in this thread.

    >
    >>Any hints?
    >
    >
    > You could get some nice level drain if that is not interfering
    > with your skills. Second, if you have the free reserves, carry
    > some cursed scrolls of genocide. Once on astral, reverse-genocide
    > purple worms and use conflict. With a little luck, some archons
    > will be swallowed. Another way is to make a lot of friends;
    > reading confused scrolls of taming is a good start and might help
    > you to develop a 'soft barriere' between you and the archons.
    > And of course, wearing a blindfold ist not too bad an idea, in
    > particular if you are warned.

    Or cursed-geno purple worms, then confused-tame them. Like conflict, but
    better.

    --
    ____ (__)
    / \ (oo) -Zarel
    |Moo. > \/
    \____/
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 8:42:28 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> writes:
    > Jove wrote:
    > > Why not have ^J work for jumping with the spell, boots, or knight
    > > like ^T works for teleporting with the spell,
    > > ring or intrinsic?
    >
    > If you have numberpad on you may use the key j to jump, or Meta-j
    > which is as good as Ctrl-j. I wonder why the Meta-j won't also work
    > with numberpad off. OTOH, ^J seems to be yet undefined, and would
    > give a better association with ^T, so I agree with your suggestion.

    ^J is "run south". Changing j to ^J for number_padders would probably
    be possible, but I don't see any great advantage to doing so.

    (In general, there _is_ no undefined usable single-letter, shift-letter,
    or ctrl-letter combination; and dashed few non-letters, either. There's
    a reason new commands get put in the #extended interface.)

    --
    : Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
    : "Hello. Well, that was the sound of Roger's Wah-Wah Rabbits, you heard :
    : them eating endives there, that's very cheap at this time of the year. :
    : [...] But now we're going to talk about shirts." -- Bonzo Dog Band :
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 8:42:29 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 17 Jul 2005 16:42:28 +0100, psmithnews@spod-central.org (Dylan
    O'Donnell) wrote:

    >Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> writes:
    >> Jove wrote:
    >> > Why not have ^J work for jumping with the spell, boots, or knight
    >> > like ^T works for teleporting with the spell,
    >> > ring or intrinsic?
    >>
    >> If you have numberpad on you may use the key j to jump, or Meta-j
    >> which is as good as Ctrl-j. I wonder why the Meta-j won't also work
    >> with numberpad off. OTOH, ^J seems to be yet undefined, and would
    >> give a better association with ^T, so I agree with your suggestion.
    >
    >^J is "run south". Changing j to ^J for number_padders would probably
    >be possible, but I don't see any great advantage to doing so.
    >
    >(In general, there _is_ no undefined usable single-letter, shift-letter,
    >or ctrl-letter combination; and dashed few non-letters, either. There's
    >a reason new commands get put in the #extended interface.)

    Thanks for the explanation. Searching for "^J" didn't find
    anything in the NetHack GuideBook, while ^t did. So I thought
    ^J was free.


    Jove
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 9:03:37 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:20:14 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
    <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >Jove wrote:
    >> On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:11:26 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
    >> <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >>>Jove wrote:
    >>
    >>>> - If you hit 100 times, that's +400 points of damage.
    >>>> - 1000 +4000
    >>>
    >>>You won't have the opportunity to hit 100 (or even 1000) times; even
    >>>the toughest creatures need no more than 10 (or so) hits - make it 15
    >>>to take the fewer damage into account, but consider the magic effects,
    >>>then. (A note aside: for the summoned insects this calculation is anyway
    >>>irrelevant, since any artifact will do.)
    >>
    >> Every time you hit with a +7 MagicBane you do 4 more
    >> points of damage than if you hit with a +4 MagicBane.
    >> What's the reasoning for limiting it to a single monster?
    >
    >In melee you attack _sequentially_, only a single monster at a time.

  • >You need no more than 10 (or so) hits at most to bring down any creature,
    >mostly much less hits with appropriately enchanted artifact weapons.

    But you're still going to attack all the monsters. So that
    doesn't affect the extra damage total, does it?


    >
    >(If you add 1000 times a 3% value of successful magic attack you get
    >really high impressive values.

    Actually, you don't. 30 magic attacks doesn't look like much
    vs 4000 extra damage points. And some of the magic attacks don't
    accumulate (like probing and cancellation) on a monster. And you
    need to factor in monster saving throws.

    Plus the magic attacks themselves aren't very impressive:
    Probing and stunning are next to useless as far as I know. I'd
    love to hear differently, though.


    And *damage accumulates*. That's why it adds up. If it didn't
    you could never kill any monster you couldn't kill with one hit.

    Probing and cancellation don't accumulate. A canceled monster
    is canceled. Canceling it again is *completely useless*.

    Three more stunned turns, which the faq says you don't get
    anyway if another special attack succeeds (cf. infra) aren't
    really worth much, are they?

    There's nothing wrong with three more turns of fleeing that
    scaring gives you. It's just that it's much easier to get
    by MagicBane's guaranteed engraving on *all* the monsters
    around you, instead of just one every so often at random.
    Then you get the extra damage *and* fleeing.





    >If I haven't overseen anything you've
    >just multiplied the value by some factor which makes the outcome look
    >great, nothing more.)


    The number of hits is not just "some factor". Any other factor
    makes the equation invalid:

    total extra damage = extra damage points X number of hits

    Do you think the estimate of 1000 hits is too high?

    What other, more valid, factor would you suggest?


    The reason the outcome looks great is because it *is* great.

    Extra damage is what everybody wants (even pacifists. Except
    they want it for their pets.) This is why primary and secondary
    weapons are routinely enchanted as high as safely possible.


    >
    >Don't forget you want to run, not engage in melee to long.

    Exactly.

    >Make attackers
    >unable to attack you effectively, either by death, or by magical means.

    And MagicBane's best magical means for that is easily engraving
    Elbereth.

    Even the spoiler says:

    "Fortunately, your odds of magic-resistance, curse-resistance,
    and engraving do not depend upon the enchantment."

    >
    >If, for example, you make 12 instead of 8 points damage, you'll engage,
    >say 7 rounds instead of 10. Which is a good thing, of course.

    Oddly enough, I agree. :-)

    > But if you
    >manage to occasionally cancel a monsters special attack (which I value
    >high) it's a very good bonus.

    How so? I really want to know if I'm missing out on something
    here.



    Most monsters have nothing to cancel. Breath attacks can be
    canceled, but monsters don't use them at melee range anyway.

    Canceling a nymph would be useful, but taking a %10 chance of
    that at melee range is foolhardy when you have a 100% chance of
    engraving Elbereth.

    Are there any cancelable monsters that don't respect Elbereth?

    Don't get me wrong. There are times when I want to cancel a
    monster. At those times (disenchanters) it needs to be a)
    reliable b) immediate and c) at a distance.

    Magicbane fails on all counts when it comes to cancellation.
    Engraving would be guaranteed to save me from the threat,
    however.



    >
    >I read the spoiler (that you referred to) that the less interesting magic
    >effect (probing) dominates on the hight enchantments, and thus suppresses
    >the better magical attacks (cancel, scare, and stun).

    Is that not reflected in the probability table? I'm not
    saying it is. But if it isn't, the table is misleading to
    no good effect.


    I've since found:

    <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/art2-343.txt&gt;

    which is for 3.4.3 instead of 3.4.1. I apologize for
    using an outdated spoiler in my previous post. I don't
    know if there were changes between the two versions,
    but my references in this post are to the above spoiler.



    The spoiler's statement that:

    "However, if you want to maximize the best magical attacks
    of this artifact, it should be enchanted to +2"

    would have to include stunning in the "best magical attacks"
    which in my ignorance I do not understand at all.

    >For the suggested enchantments you'll get these values...
    >
    > enchantment normal/probe stun/scare/cancel
    > +2 65.5% 34.5%
    > +7 85.5% 14.5%


    >Which is quite a significant difference!

    In relative terms, yes. In absolute terms, no.
    That's a difference in the *probability* of something
    happening. It doesn't say anything about the worth
    of the effect.

    Also even 34.5% is very unreliable even if the
    special attacks were worthwhile.

    Also note that the probabilities given are *over* estimates.

    "depending on the monster's magic resistance saving throw"

    Possibly very highly over estimated for the late game and
    against those monsters where the effects (especially
    cancellation) would be most useful.




    >
    >The drawback increases especially beyond an enchantment of +2 [**]; thus
    >the recommendation for that limit.

    Actually, the spoiler says:

    "However, if you want to maximize the best magical attacks
    of this artifact, it should be enchanted to +2"

    Note that maximize and best are both relative terms, not
    absolute. It by no means says limiting to +2 is a good idea.


    It also states:

    "If you simply want to cause the most damage, then the table
    indicates that you should enchant it as high as possible
    (safely to +7)."

    Which is at least as strong a recommendation for +7.


    Your salesmanship has got me wondering what I'm missing
    out on (or somehow not noticing.) I've been scrutinizing
    the spoiler very carefully.


    Jove
    Anonymous
    July 17, 2005 10:33:17 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Dylan O'Donnell wrote:
    > Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> writes:
    >>John H. wrote:
    >>
    >>>Others have mentioned not using wands of teleportation against the
    >>>Riders. It doesn't work?
    >>
    >>Worse! It will even resurrect a dead rider corpse and put him adjacent
    >>to you.
    >
    > Just revive; only live Riders do the teleport-to-you trick.

    Well, at least that was the case when I teleported a Rider the first
    (and only) time I've done that (after it was changed in NH to behave
    like it does now); the rider immediately stood adjacent. I suppose
    it was the Riders turn that put him close at once. Is the difference
    in practice only that it would just not have happened in the 1/13
    chance?

    Janis
    Anonymous
    July 18, 2005 3:56:18 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    In article <nlkld1toujicrqe460d4cs64lhpnvf4447@4ax.com>,
    Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    >
    > But you're still going to attack all the monsters.

    a) Not once I've woken Rodney.
    b) Not necessarily if I have a pet.
    c) Not necessarily in melee if I have some decent attack spells.
    d) Not necessarily if I have conflict.

    Cheers,

    Phil

    --
    Philip Kendall <pak21@srcf.ucam.org>
    http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/
    Anonymous
    July 18, 2005 5:40:14 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove wrote:
    > On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 13:20:14 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
    > <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >>In melee you attack _sequentially_, only a single monster at a time.

  • >>You need no more than 10 (or so) hits at most to bring down any creature,
    >>mostly much less hits with appropriately enchanted artifact weapons.
    >
    > But you're still going to attack all the monsters. So that
    > doesn't affect the extra damage total, does it?

    No. As I understand, you do so. I am happy if in Endgame I have creatures
    scared or made less effective so that they won't bother me and I can get
    faster ahead.

    > And *damage accumulates*. That's why it adds up.

    The 9 points of damage done by Magicbane won't vanish in addition to its
    magic attacks.

    > Probing and cancellation don't accumulate. A canceled monster
    > is canceled. Canceling it again is *completely useless*.

    The magic effects work instantly and some even permanent. Its nonsense to
    talk about accumulation here. Regarding "useless" I disagree. YMMV.

    > Three more stunned turns, which the faq says you don't get
    > anyway if another special attack succeeds (cf. infra) aren't
    > really worth much, are they?

    They are. The creature is busy with his own. Remember, in endgame you are
    mostly surrounded.

    > There's nothing wrong with three more turns of fleeing that
    > scaring gives you. It's just that it's much easier to get
    > by MagicBane's guaranteed engraving on *all* the monsters
    > around you, instead of just one every so often at random.
    > Then you get the extra damage *and* fleeing.

    Regarding Elbereth I partly agree; for the non-Endgame. Though that's no
    strategy for me in Endgame; I need to build my way through the crowd and
    I need some combo of teleporting the creatures away, killing, or scaring
    them by any (magic) means. Magicbane is quite good at that (in addition
    to its other effects, like curse-protection).

    >>If I haven't overseen anything you've
    >>just multiplied the value by some factor which makes the outcome look
    >>great, nothing more.)
    >
    > The number of hits is not just "some factor". Any other factor
    > makes the equation invalid:
    >
    > total extra damage = extra damage points X number of hits
    >
    > Do you think the estimate of 1000 hits is too high?

    The factor is relevant only if you hack'n'slash in melee until there's
    quietness (simply speaking). Granted, that's one plan how to succeed in
    NH. There are other ways.

    >>But if you
    >>manage to occasionally cancel a monsters special attack (which I value
    >>high) it's a very good bonus.
    >
    > How so? I really want to know if I'm missing out on something
    > here.
    >
    > Most monsters have nothing to cancel. Breath attacks can be
    > canceled, but monsters don't use them at melee range anyway.

    There are a lot of monsters that have something to cancel.

    You can cancel the following special attacks: fire, cold, electricity,
    sleep, paralysis, drain life, drain constitution, drain energy, stick,
    were, teleport away, slow, slime, disenchant, and, magic spellcasting.

    Some of these are, especially in the endgame, of little interest, but
    there are quite a few that I won't like to miss.

    >>I read the spoiler (that you referred to) that the less interesting magic
    >>effect (probing) dominates on the hight enchantments, and thus suppresses
    >>the better magical attacks (cancel, scare, and stun).
    >
    > Is that not reflected in the probability table? I'm not
    > saying it is. But if it isn't, the table is misleading to
    > no good effect.

    It is reflected in the table, but you have not considered it upthread.
    There you claimed that probing would even increase and that it would
    be thus a good effect of enchanting Magicbane while the other effects
    would slightly decrease (because you disregarded the combined effects
    in your calculations). You read the table wrong.

    >>For the suggested enchantments you'll get these values...
    >>
    >> enchantment normal/probe stun/scare/cancel
    >> +2 65.5% 34.5%
    >> +7 85.5% 14.5%
    >
    >>Which is quite a significant difference!
    >
    > In relative terms, yes. In absolute terms, no.

    The effects are absolute, as said above; every third hit, on average,
    you'll get a positive magic attack. (Only every seventh attack at +7.)

    > That's a difference in the *probability* of something
    > happening. It doesn't say anything about the worth
    > of the effect.
    >
    > Also even 34.5% is very unreliable even if the
    > special attacks were worthwhile.

    I think 1/3 is really good. A higher probability would spoil the game,
    I'd say (as would some weapon with 100 pts of damage per hit).

    >>The drawback increases especially beyond an enchantment of +2 [**]; thus
    >>the recommendation for that limit.
    >
    > Actually, the spoiler says:
    >
    > "However, if you want to maximize the best magical attacks
    > of this artifact, it should be enchanted to +2"
    >
    > Note that maximize and best are both relative terms, not
    > absolute. It by no means says limiting to +2 is a good idea.

    No one claims so. But it's bad if you prefer the magic effects.

    > It also states:
    >
    > "If you simply want to cause the most damage, then the table
    > indicates that you should enchant it as high as possible
    > (safely to +7)."
    >
    > Which is at least as strong a recommendation for +7.

    Yes, for those who prefer the damage-approach and value 30% more damage
    as essential for their strategy.

    > Your salesmanship has got me wondering what I'm missing
    > out on (or somehow not noticing.) I've been scrutinizing
    > the spoiler very carefully.

    Ignoring your mis-interpretation of the table values, there's nothing
    wrong if you play your style and recommend it further.

    What I think is "wrong" or misleading is your comment elsethread:
    >>
    >> (Could someone get the bit about enchanting MagicBane onto
    >> the Nethack Myths page?)
    >>
    which seem to imply that a) there is any new knowledge, and/or b) that
    keeping Magicbane at +2 is bad. None of it is true. But I may as well
    have mis-interpreted this statement of yours.

    I think every fact has been thoroughly explained on both sides.

  • Differences in playing style will remain. So from my side I plan not
    to continue that debate that seems to enlighten us no further at this
    point.

    Happy hacking!

    Janis

  • You recognize it by the length of the postings and repetitions (on
    both sides). :-)

    PS:
    Though one point remain unclear for me; why would one enchant Magicbane
    if he goes for damage anyway, since there are artifacts doing much more
    damage. But I dispense with the answer to help terminate the thread.
    Anonymous
    July 18, 2005 1:05:25 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove wrote:
    >
    > I've since found:
    >
    > <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/art2-343.txt&gt;
    >
    > which is for 3.4.3 instead of 3.4.1. I apologize for
    > using an outdated spoiler in my previous post. I don't
    > know if there were changes between the two versions,
    > but my references in this post are to the above spoiler.
    >
    > The spoiler's statement that:
    >
    > "However, if you want to maximize the best magical attacks
    > of this artifact, it should be enchanted to +2"
    >
    > would have to include stunning in the "best magical attacks"
    > which in my ignorance I do not understand at all.

    Actually chance of stunning decreases from 36,4% (+0) to 19,1% (+2),
    cancelling stays the same 10%, probing increases from 1,8% (+0) to 5,5%
    (+2) and scaring stays the same 20%.

    So the statement is missleading. It should say: "However, if you want to
    maximize the damage without sacrificing the propabilities of the best
    magical attacks of this artifact, it should be enchanted to +2."

    Topi
    --
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
    always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
    - Bertrand Russell
    "How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
    Anonymous
    July 18, 2005 3:43:59 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    John H. wrote:

    > I'm of the opinion that wands, in Nethack, seem awfully underpowered
    > even in the mid game. Wands of Death, being of the most dire type
    > besides Wishing, seem like they should work on lots of things, but
    > maybe it's enough that the Wizard is succeptable to them. (Forget your
    > cloak this morning, Roddy?)

    Which wands in particular do you find underpowered? Some are incredibly
    useful, e.g.

    Emergencies:
    - fire,lightning for permanent E engraving
    - digging for crashing through the floor, or more temporary engraving
    - teleportation for self or monster zapping
    - polymorph for unexpectedly powerful monsters (works great from inside air
    elementals!)
    - death

    Other:
    - undead turning for restoring pets
    - polymorph for polypiling
    - striking can be useful for boulder smashing (I often use these in
    Gehennom when I don't feel like whipping out the pickaxe)
    - create monster for sacc fests
    - cancellation for potion/scroll blanking, BoH uncursing, neutralizing some
    monsters...
    - cold for water/lava freezing (also does decent damage in early/mid game)
    - speed monster before you have intrinsic speed, and for speeding pets
    (also good to have in Orcustown...)
    - enlightenment is great to have if you're like me and don't keep any
    notes, and occasionally forget if you have X intrinsic yet.

    .... and probably countless others. Actually, I'd love to see how other
    people make use of wands.

    --
    Benjamin Lewis

    All what we got here is American made.
    It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed. -- FZ
    Anonymous
    July 18, 2005 4:27:16 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Quoting Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
    [Of Magicbane]
    > The only special attack that decreases is stunning.
    > From +2 to +7 probing increases from 5.5% to 25.5%
    > stunning decreases from 14.5% to 9.5%
    > scaring increases from 2.7% to 3.6%
    > confusion increases from 2.0% to 3.0%

    Cancellation is at 10% up until +2 and 5% up until +5. I agree with the
    analysis that stunning is a junk effect; the +2 to hit is worthless in the
    middle and end game. However, this does provide a definite reason to stop
    at +2 or +5 depending on how much one values cancellation.
    --
    David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
    Today is First Potmos, July.
    Anonymous
    July 18, 2005 6:50:06 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
    > I've since found:
    >
    > <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/art2-343.txt&gt;
    >
    > which is for 3.4.3 instead of 3.4.1. I apologize for
    > using an outdated spoiler in my previous post. I don't
    > know if there were changes between the two versions,
    > but my references in this post are to the above spoiler.

    For the record, the differences in the Magicbane section are:

    * corrected a rounding error in the +5 enchantment line
    * made clearer the distinction between magical attacks and magical
    effects (the latter of which are possible consequences of the
    former)
    * made clearer which effects take precedence over other effects
    * changed "Pur" to "Can" in the relevant table (the nomenclature
    changed from "purge" to "cancel" in 3.4.1, I was just slow).

    > The spoiler's statement that:
    >
    > "However, if you want to maximize the best magical attacks
    > of this artifact, it should be enchanted to +2"
    >
    > would have to include stunning in the "best magical attacks"
    > which in my ignorance I do not understand at all.

    I haven't changed Kevin's wording there, except to change "effects" to
    "attacks". If there's a consensus that it's misleading, I'm willing to
    do so, but I don't see any such consensus emerging from this thread.

    --
    : Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
    : "Hello. Well, that was the sound of Roger's Wah-Wah Rabbits, you heard :
    : them eating endives there, that's very cheap at this time of the year. :
    : [...] But now we're going to talk about shirts." -- Bonzo Dog Band :
    July 19, 2005 3:47:08 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    In article <1121546511.244322.280770@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
    John H. <JohnWH@gmail.com> wrote:

    >> - A helm of opposite alignment makes at least one of the
    >> wrong altars more useful on Astral.
    >
    >This always feels like cheating to me, but I'm weird that way....

    I started a game with the express goal of ascending a Lawful elf.
    Succeeded! It's a bit weenie to do it "just to get it over with."
    Understandable as a last-ditch survival ploy. Mine was just an
    annoyance that nethack elves are supposed to be chaotic.
    July 19, 2005 3:49:08 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    In article <dbc5q0$cbg$1@online.de>,
    Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >Worse! It will even resurrect a dead rider corpse and put him adjacent
    >to you.

    Handy trick, when that's what you want. Not every character is
    desperate to dispatch the riders or flee from them at this point
    in the game. (Who was the death-farmer? Who was the rider-eater?)
    Anonymous
    July 19, 2005 3:52:29 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:05:25 +0300, Topi Linkala <nes@iki.fi>
    wrote:

    >Jove wrote:
    >>
    >> I've since found:
    >>
    >> <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/art2-343.txt&gt;
    >>
    >> which is for 3.4.3 instead of 3.4.1. I apologize for
    >> using an outdated spoiler in my previous post. I don't
    >> know if there were changes between the two versions,
    >> but my references in this post are to the above spoiler.
    >>
    >> The spoiler's statement that:
    >>
    >> "However, if you want to maximize the best magical attacks
    >> of this artifact, it should be enchanted to +2"
    >>
    >> would have to include stunning in the "best magical attacks"
    >> which in my ignorance I do not understand at all.
    >
    >Actually chance of stunning decreases from 36,4% (+0) to 19,1% (+2),
    >cancelling stays the same 10%, probing increases from 1,8% (+0) to 5,5%
    >(+2) and scaring stays the same 20%.
    >
    >So the statement is missleading. It should say: "However, if you want to
    >maximize the damage without sacrificing the propabilities of the best
    >magical attacks of this artifact, it should be enchanted to +2."
    >
    >Topi

    Including the phrase "maximize the damage" is more misleading,
    since a) it doesn't and b) the qualifying clause is emotionally
    loaded with the vague terms "sacrificing", "best", "magical", and
    "attacks".

    Since the extra effects (the spoiler makes this distinction)
    aren't good, especially magical, or even really attacks, losing
    them entirely would not be much of a sacrifice.

    And you don't lose them entirely. Their probability goes from
    low to very low. If the probabilities were test grades, they'd
    be F-- at *every* enchantment.

    The statement in the spoiler is misleading enough:
    "However, if you want to maximize the best magical attacks
    of this artifact, it should be enchanted to +2"

    "Maximize" is market-speak. Sounds great, means nothing.
    What's being maximized is what's important.

    "Best" means the same thing. A tin opener is the "best"
    way to open a tin. Does anyone carry one for very long?

    "Magical" is meaningless. Sting is magical. A silver
    saber isn't. A silver dagger is a better weapon.

    "Artifact" is more word inflation. Sting is an artifact.
    Who uses it for their primary weapon?

    An accurate (and more prcise) statement would be:

    "If you want a 30% chance of an effect with a low chance
    of affecting your target, enchant Magicbane to +2."


    There is one plain statement that's helpful:

    "If you simply want to cause the most damage, then the table
    indicates that you should enchant it as high as possible (safely
    to +7)"



    Enchanting other weapon in the games is judged on its effects,
    not market speak. (Discussions of the best artifact go on at
    length about their specific effects and conditions where they
    occur.)

    Why should judging MagicBane be any different?

    Jove
    Anonymous
    July 19, 2005 3:56:58 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 18 Jul 2005 14:50:06 +0100, psmithnews@spod-central.org (Dylan
    O'Donnell) wrote:

    >Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
    >> I've since found:
    >>
    >> <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/art2-343.txt&gt;
    >>
    >> which is for 3.4.3 instead of 3.4.1. I apologize for
    >> using an outdated spoiler in my previous post. I don't
    >> know if there were changes between the two versions,
    >> but my references in this post are to the above spoiler.
    >
    >For the record, the differences in the Magicbane section are:
    >
    >* corrected a rounding error in the +5 enchantment line
    >* made clearer the distinction between magical attacks and magical
    > effects (the latter of which are possible consequences of the
    > former)
    >* made clearer which effects take precedence over other effects
    >* changed "Pur" to "Can" in the relevant table (the nomenclature
    > changed from "purge" to "cancel" in 3.4.1, I was just slow).
    >
    >> The spoiler's statement that:
    >>
    >> "However, if you want to maximize the best magical attacks
    >> of this artifact, it should be enchanted to +2"
    >>
    >> would have to include stunning in the "best magical attacks"
    >> which in my ignorance I do not understand at all.
    >
    >I haven't changed Kevin's wording there, except to change "effects" to
    >"attacks". If there's a consensus that it's misleading, I'm willing to
    >do so, but I don't see any such consensus emerging from this thread.

    Is it possible to know if it's misleading without knowing the
    effect of stunning?

    (And are we voting on how the game works now?)

    Jove
    Anonymous
    July 19, 2005 4:36:48 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 18 Jul 2005 12:27:16 +0100 (BST), David Damerell
    <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

    >Quoting Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
    >[Of Magicbane]
    >> The only special attack that decreases is stunning.
    >> From +2 to +7 probing increases from 5.5% to 25.5%
    >> stunning decreases from 14.5% to 9.5%
    >> scaring increases from 2.7% to 3.6%
    >> confusion increases from 2.0% to 3.0%
    >
    >Cancellation is at 10% up until +2 and 5% up until +5.

    Thanks for a clear statement. The more I look at the
    table the more confused I get.

    Do you know why there's an unexplained extra d4 in every
    column to the right of PROBE?

    Is there an explanation for why CANCEL (unlike every other
    attack) does not have a column where it appears on its own.
    (It looks like CANCEL never happens by itself, but the
    spoiler doesn't say anything about it that I can find.)

    >I agree with the
    >analysis that stunning is a junk effect; the +2 to hit is worthless in the
    >middle and end game.

    Thanks.

    >However, this does provide a definite reason to stop
    >at +2 or +5 depending on how much one values cancellation.

    Shouldn't that be "values a %20 chance of cancellation,
    versus the other effects of Magicbane"? (Most of the time
    you really want cancellation, engraving Elbereth gives
    you a better effect, 100% of the time, unaffected by
    enchantment.)

    Don't we need to discuss the probability of the effect as
    well as the actual effect itself to judge whether to stop at +2
    or +5?

    And the effect is not just cancellation, it's cancellation
    at melee range. A very different thing.

    Canceling a breath attack at melee range doesn't mean much.
    They aren't used at melee range.

    Does cancellation do anything to most monsters? It doesn't
    keep trolls from re-spawning. I know that much.

    A 100% chance of canceling a rust monster, disenchanter,
    or nymph at melee distance would be worth keeping at +2 or
    +5. For any lower probability, Magicbane's ability to
    engrave Elbereth with 100% probability is better. And
    the engraving chance is not affected by enchantment.

    So you can have a 5 times better probability of a better
    effect (works on all adjacent monsters) with a higher
    enchantment.

    Actually, that last statement is misleading. Higher-level
    monsters, the ones most likely to be worth canceling,
    are more likely to resist, giving a less than 20% chance
    of canceling them.


    Jove
    Anonymous
    July 19, 2005 5:33:04 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 18 Jul 2005 14:50:06 +0100, psmithnews@spod-central.org (Dylan
    O'Donnell) wrote:

    >Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
    >> I've since found:
    >>
    >> <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/art2-343.txt&gt;
    >>
    >> which is for 3.4.3 instead of 3.4.1. I apologize for
    >> using an outdated spoiler in my previous post. I don't
    >> know if there were changes between the two versions,
    >> but my references in this post are to the above spoiler.
    >
    >For the record, the differences in the Magicbane section are:
    >
    >* corrected a rounding error in the +5 enchantment line
    >* made clearer the distinction between magical attacks and magical
    > effects (the latter of which are possible consequences of the
    > former)
    >* made clearer which effects take precedence over other effects
    >* changed "Pur" to "Can" in the relevant table (the nomenclature
    > changed from "purge" to "cancel" in 3.4.1, I was just slow).
    >
    >> The spoiler's statement that:
    >>
    >> "However, if you want to maximize the best magical attacks
    >> of this artifact, it should be enchanted to +2"
    >>
    >> would have to include stunning in the "best magical attacks"
    >> which in my ignorance I do not understand at all.
    >
    >I haven't changed Kevin's wording there, except to change "effects" to
    >"attacks". If there's a consensus that it's misleading, I'm willing to
    >do so, but I don't see any such consensus emerging from this thread.

    Then let's put it to a vote:


    Resolved: "Stunning is one of Magicbane's best magical
    attacks."

    Please vote for or against or abstain.


    Jove
    !