D20 Urban Arcana vs. GURPS for "Shadowrun"

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We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20 Modern,
Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was that gangers are
incredibly hard to put down. Quite frankly, this did not feel "right" for
this style of setting. I recall GURPS doing pretty well with
Cyberpunk-style games (and I imagine 4E is a bit better, given the changes I
have heard of, like ACC reduction and the elimination of PD), and, quite
frankly, *any* future treatment is better than D20 Future, which is a
steaming pile of shite. Opinions?

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20
Modern,
> Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was that gangers
are
> incredibly hard to put down. Quite frankly, this did not feel
"right" for
> this style of setting. I recall GURPS doing pretty well with
> Cyberpunk-style games (and I imagine 4E is a bit better, given the
changes I
> have heard of, like ACC reduction and the elimination of PD), and,
quite
> frankly, *any* future treatment is better than D20 Future, which is a

> steaming pile of shite. Opinions?

First question is why didn't you just use Shadowrun? are you opposed
to it? I mean, I know it's a daunting system at first, but it's very
nice once you know it.

Other than that. Cuberpunk i still a good system and GURPS will do a
good job with any setting (that's what it does). Though i'm wondering
how tough the gangers were to put down and why. it's not lke you don't
know this system really well. If you want them to go down easier then
lower level, lower stats, etc. And if hte party should be putting them
down without breaking a sweat then maybe they're just not advanced
enough for the flavor of game?

 

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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20
Modern,
> Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was that gangers
are
> incredibly hard to put down.

The gangers shouldn't be statted at a high level if you want them to be
quickly put down.

Or, alternatively, you can use my patented Cheapie Mook Rule for D20
games: Mooks, no matter their level, never gain hit points past first
level.

(1) For mooks you want to be completely ineffectual against skilled
characters, simply use 1st level characters.

(2) For mooks you want to be a minor threat while basically functioning
as cannon fodder, stat them out at 2 levels below the PCs.

(3) For mooks who have a pretty good chance of hitting the PCs but
still drop quickly, stat them up at the same level as the PCs.

For example, if I ever run a D20 Star Wars game (which would, in no
way, involve the STAR WARS game published by WotC) stormtroopers will
be statted up as approximately level 5 mooks with 4-6 hp each.

--
Justin Bacon
triad3204@aol.com

 

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On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:19:32 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:

>We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20 Modern,
>Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was that gangers are
>incredibly hard to put down. Quite frankly, this did not feel "right" for
>this style of setting. I recall GURPS doing pretty well with
>Cyberpunk-style games (and I imagine 4E is a bit better, given the changes I
>have heard of, like ACC reduction and the elimination of PD), and, quite
>frankly, *any* future treatment is better than D20 Future, which is a
>steaming pile of shite. Opinions?

Well, there are some obvious remedies for the gangers being hard to
put down. You can lower their level, or you can lower the critical
damage threshold, or you can institute a "mook" rule where unnamed
characters just naturally go down in a hurry. Not that using GURPS
won't work, of course.

 

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"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> writes:

> We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20
> Modern, Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was
> that gangers are incredibly hard to put down.

Interesting. How were you statting them up?

> Quite frankly, this did not feel "right" for this style of setting.
> I recall GURPS doing pretty well with Cyberpunk-style games (and I
> imagine 4E is a bit better, given the changes I have heard of, like
> ACC reduction and the elimination of PD), and, quite frankly, *any*
> future treatment is better than D20 Future, which is a steaming pile
> of shite. Opinions?

I always thought GURPS' first, best destiny was providing a system to
play Shadowrun with, so that's probably what I'd recommend. More
"power" advantages in the corebook, too, for whipping up cyberware.

--
Matt Pillsbury
pillsy[at]mac[dot]com

 

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"Matt Pillsbury" <mtp@seesig.com> wrote in message
news:m2oedmxbma.fsf@seesig.com...
> "Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20
>> Modern, Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was
>> that gangers are incredibly hard to put down.
>
> Interesting. How were you statting them up?

I talked to the GM, and they were 5th level Strong/Tough heroes. It seems
that most challenges you are likely to encounter randomly in a bad
neighborhood are going to be somewhere around there.

>> Quite frankly, this did not feel "right" for this style of setting.
>> I recall GURPS doing pretty well with Cyberpunk-style games (and I
>> imagine 4E is a bit better, given the changes I have heard of, like
>> ACC reduction and the elimination of PD), and, quite frankly, *any*
>> future treatment is better than D20 Future, which is a steaming pile
>> of shite. Opinions?
>
> I always thought GURPS' first, best destiny was providing a system to
> play Shadowrun with, so that's probably what I'd recommend.

I may be able to get the GM to convert over, eventually. However, I would
first have to run a *different* campaign with a similar setting, until he
became more comfortable with GURPS (he has played before, but has never GMed
*anything* before this Urban Arcana game).

> More "power" advantages in the corebook, too, for whipping up cyberware.

Indeed. Additionally, there is David Pulver at the helm for most of their
futuristic books, so they are well thought out. Fortunately, I have about
80 GURPS 3E books to play with. I think I am going to hit up the FLGS for
the 4E core stuff, Fantasy, and Magic.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Matt Pillsbury" <mtp@seesig.com> wrote in message
> news:m2oedmxbma.fsf@seesig.com...
> > "Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20
> >> Modern, Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was
> >> that gangers are incredibly hard to put down.
> >
> > Interesting. How were you statting them up?
>
> I talked to the GM, and they were 5th level Strong/Tough heroes. It
seems
> that most challenges you are likely to encounter randomly in a bad
> neighborhood are going to be somewhere around there.

Why so high? What do you need that sort of level for? Just how many
major
life and death challenges is your DM assuming for growing up/living in
a
bad neighborhood? Most people manage it without dieing young.

Skills certainly DON'T require such high levels in any other D20 system
game, is d20 future that much worse?

DougL

 

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"DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote in message
news:1110836145.016756.306790@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> "Matt Pillsbury" <mtp@seesig.com> wrote in message
>> news:m2oedmxbma.fsf@seesig.com...
>> > "Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> writes:
>> >
>> >> We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20
>> >> Modern, Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was
>> >> that gangers are incredibly hard to put down.
>> >
>> > Interesting. How were you statting them up?
>>
>> I talked to the GM, and they were 5th level Strong/Tough heroes. It
> seems
>> that most challenges you are likely to encounter randomly in a bad
>> neighborhood are going to be somewhere around there.
>
> Why so high?

I do not know. I believe he got it from suggested random encounters in the
book.

> What do you need that sort of level for?

I will have to ask.

> Just how many major life and death challenges is your DM assuming for
> growing up/living in
> a bad neighborhood? Most people manage it without dieing young.

With that many hit points, I am not surprised ;-)

> Skills certainly DON'T require such high levels in any other D20 system
> game, is d20 future that much worse?

In order to be a credible threat, they need to be able to hit. These guys
were even having trouble.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote in message
> news:1110836145.016756.306790@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

> > Why so high?
>
> I do not know. I believe he got it from suggested random encounters
in the
> book.

Not knowing your characters or the rules in use I may have reached the
limit of my useful knowledge. However:
[SNIP]

> > Skills certainly DON'T require such high levels in any other D20
system
> > game, is d20 future that much worse?
>
> In order to be a credible threat, they need to be able to hit. These
guys
> were even having trouble.

Should they be a threat? Cyberpunk genre frequently includes
unaugmented
people being more or less helpless in a straight fight with augmented
humans, and in a slum virtually everyone should be unaugmented.

I personally hate warping the setting in the name of challenge or of
making something a credible threat, some things really ARE cakewalks.

DougL

 

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DougL wrote:
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
> > "Matt Pillsbury" <mtp@seesig.com> wrote in message
> > news:m2oedmxbma.fsf@seesig.com...
> > > "Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> writes:
> > >
> > >> We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20
> > >> Modern, Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was
> > >> that gangers are incredibly hard to put down.
> > >
> > > Interesting. How were you statting them up?
> >
> > I talked to the GM, and they were 5th level Strong/Tough heroes.
It
> seems
> > that most challenges you are likely to encounter randomly in a bad
> > neighborhood are going to be somewhere around there.
>
> Why so high? What do you need that sort of level for? Just how many
> major
> life and death challenges is your DM assuming for growing up/living
in
> a
> bad neighborhood? Most people manage it without dieing young.
>

In 1st. ed. AD&D, a 5th level NPC would be the leader of a hundred
0-level cannon-fodder types, with maybe a couple of 1st-3rd level
characters thrown in.

Does d20 even *have* 0-level types anymore?

 

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On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:19:32 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> scribed into the ether:

>We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20 Modern,
>Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was that gangers are
>incredibly hard to put down. Quite frankly, this did not feel "right" for
>this style of setting. I recall GURPS doing pretty well with
>Cyberpunk-style games (and I imagine 4E is a bit better, given the changes I
>have heard of, like ACC reduction and the elimination of PD), and, quite
>frankly, *any* future treatment is better than D20 Future, which is a
>steaming pile of shite. Opinions?

Cyberpunk 2020...it was d10 before d20 was a mote in TSR's eye. Great
system, lots of material.

 

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"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:1tsb311ddv600gje4v8b9frn11ju31mrqd@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:19:32 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> scribed into the ether:
>
>>We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20 Modern,
>>Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was that gangers are
>>incredibly hard to put down. Quite frankly, this did not feel "right" for
>>this style of setting. I recall GURPS doing pretty well with
>>Cyberpunk-style games (and I imagine 4E is a bit better, given the changes
>>I
>>have heard of, like ACC reduction and the elimination of PD), and, quite
>>frankly, *any* future treatment is better than D20 Future, which is a
>>steaming pile of shite. Opinions?
>
> Cyberpunk 2020...it was d10 before d20 was a mote in TSR's eye. Great
> system, lots of material.

I have it, but I do not wish to cobble together a magic & fantasy race
system from scratch.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Malachias Invictus wrote:

> I have it, but I do not wish to cobble together a magic & fantasy race
> system from scratch.

Technically speaking, if you can track down a copy of Mekton Zeta and
Mekton Zeta Plus you've got almost everything you need for a magic
system and nonhuman races in an Interlock game, and Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0.
is also Interlock.

But Mekton Zeta Plus is hard to find. Which is a damn shame, because
aside from being a resource for magic in Cyberpunk, it's also the best
mecha creation and skirmish ruleset I've ever effin' seen. So this
isn't very helpful.

Um.

....

As regards to your original question, I can't really comment on d20
Urban Arcana Future, 'cause I haven't seen d20 Future, and I can't
really comment on GURPS either, because I just have 3e, Discworld, and
GURPS Mage: The Ascension... but have you considered taking a look at Ex
Machina? It's Guardians of Order's relatively new cyberpunk system,
based on their Tri-Stat system (aka Big Eyes, Small Mouth). Big Eyes,
Small Mouth has magic and other races out the wazoo, and Ex Machina is
supposed to be a solid product.

This post ended up a lot more useless than I'd originally intended it to
be. Sorry.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"You do your arguments no favor by insulting those you ought persuade."
-Greg Stolze, Rites of the Dragon

 

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<chaos_israel@antisocial.com> wrote in message
news:1110859881.243509.91630@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> DougL wrote:
>> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> > "Matt Pillsbury" <mtp@seesig.com> wrote in message
>> > news:m2oedmxbma.fsf@seesig.com...
>> > > "Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> writes:
>> > >
>> > >> We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20
>> > >> Modern, Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was
>> > >> that gangers are incredibly hard to put down.
>> > >
>> > > Interesting. How were you statting them up?
>> >
>> > I talked to the GM, and they were 5th level Strong/Tough heroes.
> It
>> seems
>> > that most challenges you are likely to encounter randomly in a bad
>> > neighborhood are going to be somewhere around there.
>>
>> Why so high? What do you need that sort of level for? Just how many
>> major
>> life and death challenges is your DM assuming for growing up/living
> in
>> a
>> bad neighborhood? Most people manage it without dieing young.
>>
>
> In 1st. ed. AD&D, a 5th level NPC would be the leader of a hundred
> 0-level cannon-fodder types, with maybe a couple of 1st-3rd level
> characters thrown in.
>
> Does d20 even *have* 0-level types anymore?

Nope, but a Level 1 Commoner is pretty much the same thing.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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"Nikolas Landauer" <dacileva.flea@hotmail.com.tick> wrote in message
news:smic31h564ku1sk07jobf9ojm4t0c2kig8@4ax.com...
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> Matt Pillsbury wrote:
>> > Malachias Invictus writes:
>> > >
>> > > We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using
>> > > D20 Modern, Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I
>> > > noticed was that gangers are incredibly hard to put down.
>> >
>> > Interesting. How were you statting them up?
>>
>> I talked to the GM, and they were 5th level Strong/Tough
>> heroes. It seems that most challenges you are likely to
>> encounter randomly in a bad neighborhood are going to be
>> somewhere around there.
>
> Remember: Urban Arcana is not intended to model Shadowrun-style
> settings. It's high fantasy with a very thin modern/cyberpunk veneer.

I am discovering that.

> (Abbreviations used below: StrO = Strong Ordinary; DedO = Dedicated
> Ordinary; ChaO = Charismatic Ordinary)
>
> Second, Hero classes should be reserved for major villains, not for
> the mooks you meet on the street; that's what Ordinaries are for. I
> would do low-level gangers as StrongO 1/ToughO 1 (most gangers you'd
> meet on the street), mid-level as StrongO 3/ToughO 3 (gang bosses),
> and high-level as StrongO 5/ToughO 5 (absolute elite gang bosses, or
> 'oyabun'-style ganger bosses). Never higher than these, and I'd only
> use hero classes for the intended villain of the adventure.

I just found out they were ordinaries.

> For instance, I've got a Dark-Matter game I'm running soon. (Warning:
> the following example and information is *really* long, and probably
> tedious, heh.)

<snip>

> So, anyway. After all that babbling, I hope I've conveyed at least
> some idea of how I think d20 Modern adversaries should be designed.

I will point him at your post and see what he thinks. He *is* a first-time
GM, and can use the advice.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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In article <IoCdnQajvqOp7qjfRVn-ow@comcast.com>, capt_malachias@hotmail.com
wrote:

>We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20 Modern,
>Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was that gangers are
>incredibly hard to put down. Quite frankly, this did not feel "right" for
>this style of setting. I recall GURPS doing pretty well with
>Cyberpunk-style games (and I imagine 4E is a bit better, given the changes I
>have heard of, like ACC reduction and the elimination of PD), and, quite
>frankly, *any* future treatment is better than D20 Future, which is a
>steaming pile of shite. Opinions?

Why not just play the real game?

 

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Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
> They were tough to put down because they had 42 or so hit
> points. That means they could be shot about five times
> each with a sawed-off shotgun at point blank range before
> falling unconscious (without armor).
and
> The "heroic damage reduction" hit point mechanic just
> feels "off" when applied to this genre.

If you're discovering that no one goes down until below 0 hp, just
adjust the Massive Damage Threshhold downward for everyone. "Con-2",
"Con-4", "Con/2", etc., and use the most common d20 Modern house rule
I know of: Saves vs. Massive Damage are adjusted by damage dealt (the
one I use in my Dark-Matter/d20 Modern game is Save DC = 5 + damage
dealt, with the MDT = Con, which comes up moderately often). IMO, in
most d20 Modern and d20 Future games, only low-hp mooks should be
going down because of hit point loss. Others should go down due to
crits and failing MDT saves.

That, and cover is (or should be) the paramount factor in firefights.

--
Nik
- remove vermin from email address to reply.

 

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About Cyberpunk 2020.
I have the original Mekton and I confirm the mecha design rules are
beautiful; as an alternative, smaller powered armour is covered in
Maximum Metal (reprinted and easily available).
Vampires, werewolves and other fancy stuff, including an adaptation of
Mekton Z psionics, are featured prominently in the impressive
supplements from Ianus Games (esp. Children of the Night).
In a minimalistic system like Interlock, a race can be defined as a
bunch of stat adjustments and skill bonuses; it should be an easy task
(on the other hand GURPS has a richer model).
For magic you can add to the psionic system from Mekton Z or Children
of the Night (disciplines are very expensive skills, different effects
of a discipline have varying difficulty levels) and/or transplant the
GURPS system (every spell is a rather cheap skill, less specific than
D&D spells).
The main advantage of the Interlock system over D20, apart from elegant
simplicity and sensible rules in general, is how it deals with hit
points: everybody has the same number of hit points because they are
all humans (cyborgs have more...) and damage received causes serious
penalties.
Physical toughness corresponds in D20 terms to moderate damage
reduction and also helps in saving throws (similar to AD&D system shock
rolls) against poison, passing out, death etc.; dexterity helps
dodging; armour provides a lot of damage reduction but impairs dodging
and fighting.
None of the above improves with experience: intrinsic combat
survivability can only be increased with technological (or in our case
magical) improvements of stats and by raising attack and defense combat
skills.
No hit points out of thin air applied to falling, drowning, explosions
etc., no exchanges of hits without dramatic effects until one party
drops dead, no huge superiority of high level characters.

Lorenzo Gatti

 

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On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:58:45 -0500, Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net>
wrote:

>In article <IoCdnQajvqOp7qjfRVn-ow@comcast.com>, capt_malachias@hotmail.com
>wrote:
>
>>We had our first "Shadowrun"-type game this weekend, using D20 Modern,
>>Future, and Urban Arcana. The first thing I noticed was that gangers are
>>incredibly hard to put down. Quite frankly, this did not feel "right" for
>>this style of setting. I recall GURPS doing pretty well with
>>Cyberpunk-style games (and I imagine 4E is a bit better, given the changes I
>>have heard of, like ACC reduction and the elimination of PD), and, quite
>>frankly, *any* future treatment is better than D20 Future, which is a
>>steaming pile of shite. Opinions?
>
>Why not just play the real game?

Shadowrun? I hated Shadowrun's mechanics. Reeealy, reeeealy hated
them.

 

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chaos_israel@antisocial.com writes:
[...]
> In 1st. ed. AD&D, a 5th level NPC would be the leader of a hundred
> 0-level cannon-fodder types, with maybe a couple of 1st-3rd level
> characters thrown in.

> Does d20 even *have* 0-level types anymore?

In D&D 3rd edition, the equivalent would either be a 1st level Warrior
(for combatants) or a 1st level Commoner (for non-combatants). They
would have one hit die that isn't maxed, and an "ordinary" stat array.

In d20 Modern, the equivalent would be a 3rd level Ordinary, who would
take levels in basic classes without the attendant feats and talents;
they have three hit dice, but the first isn't maxxed, and they have
the "ordinary" stat array, just like their D&D counterparts.

--
Matt Pillsbury
pillsy[at]mac[dot]com

 

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Robert Singers wrote:
> Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Anivair said
>
> >> ...until you start looking at the fact that extremely difficult
tasks
> >> make your skill level irrelevant.
> >
> > there are plenty of similar complaints to make against the d20
system,
> > though, esspecially regarding how irrelevant skill is for most
average
> > tasks.
>
> Can you remind me; are you one of the 2e players that keeps
commenting when
> 3e is assumed to be the ruleset being used in comparision?

No, i detest the 2ed rules, but there is still plenty of ammunition
against the 3E skill system, not all of it bad. Though I agree that
it's leaps and bounds and a couple extra feet better than 2ed.

 

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David Johnston wrote:

> Any such problems with d20 pale to insignificance by comparison with
> Shadowrun. (And actually with the current rules set, skill matters a
> lot for average tasks.)

I agree, but hte point has been raised a thousand times that for most
easy to average tasks skill is less important than your d20 roll, and
in fact the right roll for most skills (read anyhting under about a 22
if you have a decent attribute score) is all important. The point made
seems to be that the 1-20 variation is very large in comparison to the
DC's (that most often range from 10-20 for most tasks) and I don't
totally disagree, though I also don't care much. I'm just clarrifying
that d20 is not the best model of a really well thought out skill
system. There are plenty of games that have a better skill system.
They are just not appropriate for D&D. (most of them anyway)

 

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"Anivair" <anivair@gmail.com> wrote in news:1110897278.246682.113400
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

>
> David Johnston wrote:
>
>> Any such problems with d20 pale to insignificance by comparison with
>> Shadowrun. (And actually with the current rules set, skill matters a
>> lot for average tasks.)
>
> I agree, but hte point has been raised a thousand times that for most
> easy to average tasks skill is less important than your d20 roll, and
> in fact the right roll for most skills (read anyhting under about a 22
> if you have a decent attribute score) is all important. The point made
> seems to be that the 1-20 variation is very large in comparison to the
> DC's (that most often range from 10-20 for most tasks) and I don't
> totally disagree, though I also don't care much. I'm just clarrifying
> that d20 is not the best model of a really well thought out skill
> system. There are plenty of games that have a better skill system.
> They are just not appropriate for D&D. (most of them anyway)



I think that focusing too much on the variance of the d20 roll is
overlooking the importance of Take 10 and Take 20 to the 3e system. For
almost all skills, it is PURELY your skill and ability that determines
whether you can perform the task at all, purely your skill and ability
that determines if you can perform the task reliably by taking 10. The
die roll only comes up when it matters how quickly you perform a
difficult task under pressure.

d20 actually made an ingenious logical step from most rpgs in what a
skill roll represents. In most games, the skill roll determines if you
CAN do something. In d20, the roll is how QUICKLY you can do something.

Take picking locks as an example. In 2e, you have a, say, 50% chance to
unlock any particular door. If you fail, you can't do it until you go up
a level, but the identical door down the hall may be no bar. GURPS, if I
recall, works basically the same, although the number you're rolling for
makes more sense. In 3e, you either can or can not pick the lock on the
door. There's no die roll to determine this. If you're in no hurry, you
take 20 and automatically succeed if it's at all in your ability. If
there's a beholder chasing you, then you start rolling to see how QUICKLY
you get the door open.

 

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On 14 Mar 2005 10:34:24 -0800, "Anivair" <anivair@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
>> > I mean, I know it's a daunting system at first,
>>
>> No, it really isn't.
>
>I think it is. or at least the combat system is (esspecially once you
>factor in all the stupid weapon and damage rules).
>
>> > but it's very nice once you know it.
>>
>> ...until you start looking at the fact that extremely difficult tasks
>make
>> your skill level irrelevant.
>
>there are plenty of similar complaints to make against the d20 system,
>though, esspecially regarding how irrelevant skill is for most average
>tasks.

Any such problems with d20 pale to insignificance by comparison with
Shadowrun. (And actually with the current rules set, skill matters a
lot for average tasks.)

 

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On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 12:47:08 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Indeed. Additionally, there is David Pulver at the helm for most of their
> futuristic books, so they are well thought out. Fortunately, I have about
> 80 GURPS 3E books to play with. I think I am going to hit up the FLGS for
> the 4E core stuff, Fantasy, and Magic.

IMO the core stuff is really good. The one flaw is that the authors
and editors weren't as rigorous in their langauge as D&D is, so
there's some slight confusion in terminology. It's not bad, but D&D is
better here.

The new Magic is Magic + Grimoire, with some fixes (but not all spells
are 'fixed' - Earth to Stone when used to create iron from earth makes
iron at a cost that can be defined in "pounds per cent"), so you don't
really need it, but it looks nice beside the core rules, and is
cleaner than the 3e versions.

Fantasy I don't have yet (thanks to the effing useless distributors
the FLGS uses), but flipping through my friend's copy it looks really
useful. Discussions of magic levels and their effects on game worlds,
discussions of religions, and so on.

Apparently Infinite Worlds is good if you're into that stuff, and
Kenneth Hite wrote it, which is all good.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."