Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Sad news...Palomino!!!!!!!!

Last response: in CPUs
Share
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
June 29, 2001 1:28:52 PM

I just got a reply from guys in ASUS that THEIR A7V does NOT support Palomino CPU.....I AM ABOUT TO CRY!!!! BUT WHY?? WHY NOT??? PALOMINO FORGIVE ME!!!!!

More about : sad news palomino

June 29, 2001 1:30:51 PM

was it becuase of voltage that i wouldn't work

<font color=red>Gasoline + Fire</font color=red> Can be a lot of fun :smile: :smile: :smile:
June 29, 2001 1:45:45 PM

could be only a 133FSB

-* This Space For Rent *-
email for application details
Related resources
Can't find your answer ? Ask !
June 29, 2001 1:47:58 PM

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! you thought that all you had to do was get a palomino and slap it on an older type mb, hahahahaha, that's like putting on new clothes and without taking a shower first! hahahahaha! :-)

Asus is not stupid! they want your money too! hahahaha!
maybe some clever folk will hack that cpu so it can sit in your old dusty mobo, not! hahahahaha!

"AMD/VIA...you <i>still</i> are the weakest link, good bye!"
June 29, 2001 1:55:04 PM

Post deleted by xxsk8er101xx
June 29, 2001 2:20:50 PM

well the A7V with the Palamino would be a stupid combo. The A7V133 will work with it but there might be BIOS issues. I've seen site, I can't remember which, that did use the Palomino on the normal T-Bird boards with good results.

Your Signature Sucks
June 29, 2001 2:22:49 PM

Athlon 4 has the same pinout as the Athlon C. The problem could be the Athlon 4 needs an 266(133ddr) FSB and the A7v doesn't support that. The voltage issue is different. There are some durons already in use that use the same voltage as the Athlon 4. I suppose the Athlon 4 will work on those.

According to AMD, if the mobo is made to the full socket A spec, it will run an Athlon 4 and thoroughbred just fine.


<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
June 29, 2001 3:08:09 PM

Post deleted by xxsk8er101xx
June 29, 2001 3:32:18 PM

No dude you've got it wrong. The pinout for the Palomino is the same as the the Thunderbird. The SOLE reason why the A7V doesn't officially support the Palomino is because the A7V only has 100 mHz FSB support, while the Palomino needs a 133 mHz bus. Uhhh, I don't know where you came up with the idea that popping in an Athlon 4 will overclock the motherboard, as that's just not true. The motherboard is what controls the FSB, not the CPU, so putting an Athlon 4 into the A7V will underclock the CPU. A Palomino *might* work, but not at full speed, as it would underclock a 1600 mHz Athlon 4 to only 1200 mHz (12 x 133 = 1600, 12 x 100 = 1200). But, being that boards today might need BIOS upgrades to even work with Athlon 4s, there won't be a BIOS revision for the A7V to support Palominos because of the bus speed issue.

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
June 29, 2001 3:45:31 PM

You are correct.

I can put a Palomino into my Abit KT7-RAID, and it will work, proper voltages are supported. But, it will be underclocked as the KT133 chipset can only reach a FSB of maybe 110Mhz, a far cry from the 133mhz that the Palomino requires. So, while I can use Palomino with my existing MB, I will not be getting the full power that the chip offers.

However, if I had the Abit KT7a-RAID, which uses the KT133a chipset, then a Palomino could be used to its full potential.

I would expect any MB with the KT133a chipset to work with a Palomino.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
June 29, 2001 3:46:43 PM

God damn, Meltdown. I thought you would have learnt your lesson...... do you seriously think people like you for what you do? ROFLMAO!

"that's like putting on new clothes and without taking a shower first! "

Unfortunately for you, that <i>can</i> be done. :wink:

----------
I am, you know I am. I am Canadian.
June 29, 2001 4:13:09 PM

Post deleted by xxsk8er101xx
June 29, 2001 4:16:09 PM

There are two A7V's (plus some derivatives). One is the A7v with the 100 mhz bus and the other is the a7v133 with the 133 mhz bus. The Athlon C and the Palamino are both working with the 133(266) mhz bus. The a7v is for the Athlon-B.

For those of you mentioning voltage problems every 5 minutes, please provide a source since this entire thread could seriously be screwing with people's heads if they don't know any better. I'd love to get a real answer.

<font color=red>Yeah, I took a crap on your lawn. Whatcha gonna do about it?</font color=red>
June 29, 2001 4:20:01 PM

Apple's and Oranges. There are going to be a number of Palamino's released including the already released AthlonMP. We're talking about the desktop version. At least I am.

Don't have a fit.

<font color=red>Yeah, I took a crap on your lawn. Whatcha gonna do about it?</font color=red>
June 29, 2001 4:30:37 PM

Post deleted by xxsk8er101xx
June 29, 2001 4:48:02 PM

Ok, lets get something straight now then. Which palamino are you discussing? Cause if you're discussing the desktop version then you're wrong. The mobile version I don't know anything about so I can't say much, but the desktop version will have the same pin layout from everything that I've read. This voltage issue is pure speculation at this point since I have yet to see a single article addressing it. As far as the A7V is concerned, see my post above; it's like sticking a P2-333 (66 mhz bus) into a 100 mhz board or visa versa.

<font color=red>Yeah, I took a crap on your lawn. Whatcha gonna do about it?</font color=red>
June 29, 2001 4:57:08 PM

Post deleted by xxsk8er101xx
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
June 29, 2001 5:10:08 PM

His source? LOL

----------
I am, you know I am. I am Canadian.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
June 29, 2001 5:19:45 PM

HOLD ON HERE! I understand that A7V and Palomino - won't be fun, but what are those Athlon B and Athlon C pins you are talking about? IF they have different pins then why some people told I can put Athlon C on my mobo? about the technologies - when I was buying A7V it only came out and was out for a week, I just had no choice - I NEEDED pc not just for games (if I'd use for games I would probobly wait until now and buy super kick ass pc), but for school also.
I just wonder if AMD will make some more Athlon Bs with clocked up to 1.8Ghz or so. When Palomina will officially released and be on www.pricewatch.com TRUST ME prices on Athlon B will QUICKLY fall down VERY FAST and this will be a time for upgrade. Wen I got this A7V 1008 BIOS update the dude said it is for 1.4Ghz Athlon 200fsb but they have only 266fsb on pricewatch! why? and buying a new mobo will never be a problem, except do DDR mobos support SDRAM?
June 29, 2001 5:30:45 PM

I asked you what we are discussing first of all. As far as a source, there are several that say the palamino's are socket-a. Whether they change pin assaignments, per tom's article, who knows?! The voltage is going to be lower. Tom speculated that it would be around 1.5 volts.

Nonetheless there is nothing that says they shouldn't work. According to AMD they state that the current motherboards should support AMD processors until 2002. What that means I don't know yet. It might just meant they'll support the T-birds up to a speculative 1.5-1.6 Ghz. The processors haven't been released. I think you're lumping all the Athlon-4 processors into one big lump and that's probably not a good assumption.

There are several catagories: server/workstation, mobile, and desktop. I only care about the desktop version.

Either way I'm taking a wait and see attitude until products are released.

<font color=red>Yeah, I took a crap on your lawn. Whatcha gonna do about it?</font color=red>
June 29, 2001 5:35:35 PM

From what I know and have read all the Palamino's will be a socket-a form. What he was bringing up was something tom mentioned. There might be some pins that are being used on the Palamino that aren't being used for the t-bird. I don't know if this will affect anything other than a loss of some functionality though like a heat sensor. This might only be for the mobile version.

I don't think they're making any more Athlon-B's. You can underclock a Athlon-C in your motherboard I believe, and I think the new bios supports a higher multiplier.

<font color=red>Yeah, I took a crap on your lawn. Whatcha gonna do about it?</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by dhlucke on 06/29/01 10:40 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
June 29, 2001 5:43:49 PM

Post deleted by xxsk8er101xx
June 29, 2001 5:49:40 PM

It doesn't work because of the different FSB's. In the end it might actually work if they release a nice bios, but it would be a huge waste since you wouldn't be using the full potential of the CPU.

You've gotta realize that the A7V is pretty old now. I bought my A7V in December and put a Duron 800 in it. I wasn't expecting to put a Palamino in it and I don't think anybody should be expecting that. The fact that I can stick a 1.4 Ghz Athlon-B in it is good enough for me. I just hope that those people who have 266 FSB motherboards will be able to use the palamino.

<font color=red>Yeah, I took a crap on your lawn. Whatcha gonna do about it?</font color=red>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
June 29, 2001 6:10:28 PM

I'm happy with my 800Mhz t-bird 200fsb, where can I get 1.4Ghz Athlon B? with 200fsb? I don't need it though, I have 1.3Ghz that worked without ANY update on my A7V (I still remember those people that called me a moron becasue of that in my "Nobody, Just nobody can answer that question!" post), I don't even use it, don't need to, 800Mhz is enough for me! Can't we all just e-mail AMD tech support and ask? ("we" because I know they won't reply for most of us)
June 29, 2001 6:35:06 PM

Thanks for calling me an idiot, because you are the one who is wrong. You may have an AS in computer science, but so what? You seem to think that a CPU will overclock the motherboard (laughable). That is wrong, and shows that by you even thinking that, you don't know what you are talking about. Pin assignments are NOT different. Previously UNUSED pins are now being USED, for such things as the thermal diode, PowerNow!, and possibly the further SSE extensions. Even the quote you posted says it "might as well not be a problem." The fact remains that the Palomino works on pre-Palomino chipsets, like the KT133A, which is basically just the KT133 chipset that works at 133 mHz FSB. The only reason why the Palomino is not supported on the Asus A7V is because of the frontside bus issue. Calm down and try doing a little bit more research before insulting people.

Yes I know what bandwith is. You obviously do not though. Look at this quote of yours: "Since the athlon 4 is 133mhz -there is no room for the electrons to flow on the 100mhz bus - 33mhz short. By popping in the athlon 4 you would be essentially overclocking your motherboard 33mhz over to what it can do."

HAHA That is funny stuff man. The reason why a KT133 fails at 133 isn't because too many electrons are trying to squeeze themselves onto the traces, which is what you seem to think. It's because the northbridge can't operate at those high speed and fails. It's kind of like trying to run a CPU at too high a speed... eventually it will fail. You may have an AS in computer science, but it obviously didn't make you as smart as you think you are.

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
June 29, 2001 6:48:25 PM

Post deleted by xxsk8er101xx
June 29, 2001 7:09:35 PM

Post deleted by xxsk8er101xx
June 29, 2001 7:13:58 PM

Quote:
Autodetect my friend! the cpu's nowadays autodetects the cpu's FSB and multiplier to set the right speed.

And it still posts at default FSB which is 100MHz (at least to Asus mobo that I've been used) regardless which type of CPU is (100 or 133FSB). Mine is TB 1000C (7.5*133) posts as 750MHz (7.5*100) if I set it's <b>autodetected</b>.

:smile: Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.
June 29, 2001 7:51:01 PM

Post deleted by xxsk8er101xx
June 29, 2001 7:58:46 PM

"Configure Motherboard Correctly

Motherboards that support both a 266MHz and a 200MHz front-side bus (FSB) will typically have a factory-default FSB setting of 200MHz (100MHz system clock) to protect 200MHz FSB processors from accidently being overclocked. If an AMD Athlon™ processor that supports a 266MHz FSB is installed on a motherboard that is configured to operate the FSB at 200MHz, it will operate at a lower frequency. This is a result of the processor's multiplier. The function of the multiplier is to multiply the bus frequency to derive the processor frequency. An FSB that is set to operate at 200MHz is operating at a frequency lower than expected for an AMD Athlon processor that supports a 266MHz FSB. Consequently, a 266MHz FSB processor will operate at a lower frequency if the FSB is only running at 200MHz.

For example, a 1000MHz AMD Athlon processor that supports a 266MHz FSB requires a 133MHz system clock (266MHz FSB) and a 7.5x multiplier. This results in a processor frequency of 1000MHz (system clock x multiplier = processor frequency). However, if the motherboard's FSB is set to 200MHz (100MHz system clock), the processor will only operate at 750MHz (100MHz clock x 7.5 multiplier = 750MHz CPU speed)."

http://ask.amd.com/SRVS/CGI-BIN/WEBCGI.EXE/,/?St=46,E=0...(4493)


OK now this makes sense. I knew it had to be able to be downclocked. By the way i'm at work and this is making time fly pretty quick so thats why i'm insanely into this as there is nothing to do!

Basicly if you buy a 1000mhz palomino you are actually buying a 750mhz. fine by me! nice easy upgrade when you get a new mobo! :) 

*sigh* of relief!
June 29, 2001 7:59:56 PM

Quote:
By putting a 133mhz cpu on a 100mhz motherboard that autodetects; it might try and set the FSB to 133mhz causing your system to not even post.

Yes, it can. I had an old A7V (supports 100FSB only) and I put my TB1000C (133FSB) and it posted at 750MHz.

:smile: Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.
June 29, 2001 8:45:15 PM

I said that some of the pins are different, but that is not why the Palomino will not work on an Asus A7V. The Palomino probably would work on it with a BIOS upgrade, but it will NOT BE SUPPORTED because of the 200/266 mHz FSB issue. I know for a fact that the motherboard would not try to operate the bus at 133 mHz because that is the way it works. I don't need an engineer to know that. I have read tech specs on motherboards and read about how these things work. For instance, dude, if you put a Thunderbird Athlon-C (speced to run at 266 mHz FSB) into a 200 mHz FSB board, IT WILL RUN AT 200 mHz, and not try to run at 266 mHz. Duh.

The motherbaord will not always autodetect the FSB. It is JUMPERLESS, yes, but that means all the FSB and multiplier settings can be set in the BIOS without the need for jumpers or dipswitches. Dude, I am right, you are wrong.

Quote:
By putting a 133mhz cpu on a 100mhz motherboard that autodetects; it might try and set the FSB to 133mhz causing your system to not even post. Now even if you have a jumper motherboard that has a jumper set to 100mhz FSB and it doesn't autodetect. Your cpu is expecting a frequency of 133mhz and you are only giving it 100mhz, so it won't even turn on probably.

Dude, you are so wrong. You kinda know what you are talking about, but not really. In case of the Asus A7V, it has only 1 possible AUTODETECT FSB, which is 100 mHz. No matter what chip you put in there, it will try to run at 100 mHz FSB only. If you put a 133 mHz FSB chip in there, it will run at 100 mHz, and will post, but be slower because of the multiplier issue.

Quote:
The thing i don't get is why can't the 133mhz to be downclocked to 100mhz so the new athlon 4 would work on older boards?

Again, this shows you do not fully research the topics before you post. The Athlon 4 CAN run at a 200 mHz clock. In fact, all mobile Athlon 4s run at 200 mHz for power savings. In reality, a 200 mHz and 266 mHz Athlon is the same exact processor, only speced to run at different FSB speeds. You can get away, a lot of the time, with runnin a 200 mHz FSB processor at 266 mHz without any problems, because the processor doesn't know and doesn't care about the difference.

Like I've been saying all along, because the Athlon 4 is speced to run at 266 mHz FSB only for desktops, NO 100 mHz FSB ONLY MOTHERBOARD WILL OFFICIALLY SUPPORT IT, even though it would probably work! It has nothing to do with PIN assignments.

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
June 29, 2001 9:42:20 PM

well can you do me a favor and in personal message say EXACTLY what AMD guys told you, please! We gotta finish up with that, A7V will NOT support Palomino, there won't be any BIOS update for it either - another reply from ASUS, guys (why they never answered WHY?)
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
June 29, 2001 11:53:50 PM

Quote:

Basicly if you buy a 1000mhz palomino you are actually buying a 750mhz. fine by me! nice easy upgrade when you get a new mobo! :) 

Um no. You can raise the mult to 10x.

----------
I am, you know I am. I am Canadian.
June 29, 2001 11:54:59 PM

I don't believe this. I'd like to see EXACTLY what the AMD guys sent you. WORD FOR WORD! I don't want to see an interpretation, as I don't believe you are qualified to make one. From the posts you've made it seems to me you're convinced of the facts you're right, but well, to everyone else it seems otherwise. You've managed to spurt out some totally inacurate info and also managed to brand others that attempted to correct you. Not very impressive so far.

Putting a processor needing a 133(266)MHz FSB in a motherboard providing one with only 100(200)MHz, will not overclock the motherboard. The CPU these days only knows its multiplier. The motherboard has control of the FSB.

Electrons to flowing in the tracings with proportion to bandwidth? You have very little idea as to how "the electrons in a wire" thing works, don't you?

Then you go on to explain how the bus-multiplier model works. No doubt, all that were correcting you already know this at a much better level than you. I guess you were just convincing your self again.

I think you should apologise to ksoth. You did promise to make him look like an idiot. I don't think its happened yet, nor does it look like happening anytime in the distant future.

The socket the desktop version will go in is Socket A. Thus the pin out is exactly the same. What is different is the pin assignments of some of the previously reserved ones. Do you know why they are called reserved? It is because they are to have functions in the future. This ensures compatibility between the product of today, and the one of tomorrow.

The only thing not working by putting an Athlon 4 in a current Athlon mobo is the onchip thermal monitoring. This requires the mobo chipset to acknowledge certain data. And ofcourse if it is running with a 200MHz FSB, it will be underclocked (until it is pencil bridged and overclocked?).

The following extract is from <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.html?i=1469&p=9" target="_new">Anandtec</A> with info obtained from AMD.
Quote:

Now that the Athlon 4 is here, the big question everyone is asking is "will it work with current Socket-A motherboards?" AMD actually told us that as long as motherboard manufacturers adhere to the guidelines they set forth, a motherboard purchased today would work with not only the Athlon 4 but also the Thoroughbred and Barton cores. This means that the Thoroughbred and Barton cores will both be on Socket-A Athlons as well.

<A HREF="http://www.amd.com/news/prodpr/21025.html" target="_new">info on mobile athlon 4. read it. its good for you.</A> It even talks about 200MHz FSB.

Now lets see what the might AMD has told the allegedly mighty... you?


<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
June 29, 2001 11:55:59 PM

Quote:

Your cpu is expecting a frequency of 133mhz and you are only giving it 100mhz, so it won't even turn on probably.

ROFLMAO...... for a second you almost sounded like juin

Where was it you said you got your AS degree?

----------
I am, you know I am. I am Canadian.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
June 30, 2001 1:25:34 AM

and in conclusion I can state that:

1. KT133 chipset will not officially support AMD Athlon Palomino.
2. Palomino will probobly (50/50) work on KT133 chipset but not at a full speed.
3. Buying Palomino for KT133 would be a good thing if you are thinking about buying another mobo later or just won't make any sense if you are not.
4. Without any degree and not even being expert in CPU field I can say CPU DOES NOT CONTROL FSB, MOTHERBOARD DOES.

Settled?
June 30, 2001 1:34:28 AM

"Configure Motherboard Correctly

Motherboards that support both a 266MHz and a 200MHz front-side bus (FSB) will typically have a factory-default FSB setting of 200MHz (100MHz system clock) to protect 200MHz FSB processors from accidently being overclocked. If an AMD Athlon™ processor that supports a 266MHz FSB is installed on a motherboard that is configured to operate the FSB at 200MHz, it will operate at a lower frequency. This is a result of the processor's multiplier. The function of the multiplier is to multiply the bus frequency to derive the processor frequency. An FSB that is set to operate at 200MHz is operating at a frequency lower than expected for an AMD Athlon processor that supports a 266MHz FSB. Consequently, a 266MHz FSB processor will operate at a lower frequency if the FSB is only running at 200MHz.

For example, a 1000MHz AMD Athlon processor that supports a 266MHz FSB requires a 133MHz system clock (266MHz FSB) and a 7.5x multiplier. This results in a processor frequency of 1000MHz (system clock x multiplier = processor frequency). However, if the motherboard's FSB is set to 200MHz (100MHz system clock), the processor will only operate at 750MHz (100MHz clock x 7.5 multiplier = 750MHz CPU speed)."

THIS IS A QUOTE FROM AMD THEMSELVES AND THE SOURCE AND LINK IS BELOW!

http://ask.amd.com/SRVS/CGI-BIN/WEBCGI.EXE/,/?St=46,E=0...(4493)

did you read it? that is from AMD... would u like me to say it again? that was from AMD did you read it? that is from AMD... would u like me to say it again? that was from AMD did you read it? that is from AMD... would u like me to say it again? that was from AMD did you read it? that is from AMD... would u like me to say it again? that was from AMD did you read it? that is from AMD... would u like me to say it again? that was from AMD did you read it? that is from AMD... would u like me to say it again? that was from AMD did you read it? that is from AMD... would u like me to say it again? that was from AMD did you read it? that is from AMD... would u like me to say it again? that was from AMD did you read it? that is from AMD... would u like me to say it again? that was from AMD did you read it? that is from AMD... would u like me to say it again? that was from AMD did you read it? that is from AMD... would u like me to say it again? that was from AMD did you read it? that is from AMD... would u like me to say it again? that was from AMD did you read it? that is from AMD... would u like me to say it again? that was from AMD
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
June 30, 2001 1:40:01 AM

Is this from AMD? Can you write it again?
June 30, 2001 1:45:15 AM

omg ... do you know what speculation means? i did say i was speculating... and that it wouldn't make sense to not be able to downclock... amazing.. you are just like the media... take out a little line and leave out the important sentences that totally change the meaning of what you quote from me.. you are scum just like the media.

do you know how to read? prove it.. because so far i'm convinced that a majority of you skip school 9 out of 10 times through out the year and are stuck in your house playing video games.
June 30, 2001 1:46:36 AM

just go back and read it it's still there or look it up. <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by xxsk8er101xx on 06/29/01 10:16 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
June 30, 2001 1:48:31 AM

How if your chip is locked? and yes i've tried the pencil trick on my duron it doesn't work.
June 30, 2001 2:53:43 AM

Then you did it wrong. Do it again, just be sure none of the bridges touch each other.....

---------
Grass is a beautiful weed
June 30, 2001 3:03:07 AM

Use a automotive rear window defroster repair kit to close the bridges. It worked better for me.

=
<font color=green><i>Will code HTML for food.</i></font color=green>
June 30, 2001 3:20:52 AM

Hmmm... I have a Win globe on my duron... the sucker was a pain to get on... anyway.. what pencil would you recommend lol? i gotta invest in a pencil sharpener maybe thats why it didn't work.. it looked fine to me though i even used a magnifying glass... *shrugs* it wasn't completely dull wasn't sharp either...
June 30, 2001 3:43:15 AM

Just a normal HB pencil should do the trick.

---------
Grass is a beautiful weed
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
June 30, 2001 7:35:21 AM

quoted
__________________________________________________________________________________
There are two A7V's (plus some derivatives). One is the A7v with the 100 mhz bus and the other is the a7v133 with the 133 mhz bus. The Athlon C and the Palamino are both working with the 133(266) mhz
bus. The a7v is for the Athlon-B
___________________________________________________________________________________

I don't get it. You can change the A7V CPU external frequency from the default 100.0 Mhz to 133.3Mhz, right? Won't it enable the mobo to run 133Mhz cpu? What difference will it make (compare to A7V133)?
June 30, 2001 8:08:48 AM

a7v v.s a7v133

a7v uses via kt133 chipset rated to only 100FSB
a7v133 uses via kt133a chipset rated to 133FSB

the kt133 chipset does not work up to 133FSB. You can run memory asyncronously up to 133Mhz with an FSB of 100, and you can clock the FSB up to about 110-115Mhz before it will stop working. The KT133A chipset will do 150FSB+ on the chip natively.

-* This Space For Rent *-
email for application details
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
June 30, 2001 1:12:13 PM

I bought a conductive pen for that. It is cheap, look on www.pricewatch.com and buy the thin one, drops are big and 2 bridges almost touched on my CPU, so be VERY careful. Trick works.
!