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YAFNIs

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Anonymous
July 23, 2005 7:32:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Alrighty, here we go.

A better implementation of 'x' (switch weapons). It works if you're
switching weapons between, say, a one or two-handed weapon and a pick-axe,
but it won't work for switching between dual-wielded weapon sets and a
pick-axe. I guess the way it would work is if you're dual-wielding you can
have an (alternate weapon, not wielded), and pressing x will switch between
the dual-wields and the pick-axe (or whatever else it is, I'm just using a
pick-axe for example). If this might be unbalancing because it'd allow you
to do something quicker, make the action take two turns.

Fix the status line to expand to more than 80 characters when the window is
more than 80 characters. I just had a rather egregious death due to
statuses being pushed all the way off the right of the status line, and I
don't wish it upon anyone else. Also, status messages should be
prioritized in order of seriousness from left to right on the status line
so even if someone is playing with just 80 character columns they won't
have the unimportant status "Satiated" push off the very important status
"FoodPois" or whatever it is for deathly ill.

Some sort of autopickup option for spent ammunition. This would make
ranged weapons a bit less annoying. You'd have to add a single bit (or
there might already be room) to each struct for weapons and have it be set
to true when you throw the item. So when you step over the item later, a
check is made on the bit and it is automatically picked up. An alternative
would be to be able to set autopickup to work on specific items; this patch
has already been coded but it is not in vanilla.

A better method of "taking 20" or at least more than 1 on checking chests
for traps. Checking chests for traps is tedious; you have to type u, type
>, then it gives you a prompt "Do you want to check this chest for traps?",
and then you have to press y. All of this for a single check of a chest
and you need to check it multiple times to be sure. For the cautious
person who checks every chest they come across this is very tedious. How
about making something like n5u> work. Like n5s, but instead of searching
for hidden doors for five turns, you're searching for hidden traps on a
chest for five turns.

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris

More about : yafnis

Anonymous
July 23, 2005 7:32:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:
> Also, status
> messages should be prioritized in order of seriousness from left to
> right on the status line so even if someone is playing with just 80
> character columns they won't have the unimportant status "Satiated"
> push off the very important status "FoodPois" or whatever it is for
> deathly ill.

Not to pick on you or anything, but "Satiated" is NOT an unimportant status,
as anyone who has ever choked to death will tell you. My recommendation
would be to make sure the experience counter is not being displayed, and
maybe turn off the turn counter as well



--
-JH
Ascended V,A,W(x2),B,K,Ro,C,S,H,T,Ra,P
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 7:32:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:32:15 GMT, Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu> wrote:

>Alrighty, here we go.
>
>A better implementation of 'x' (switch weapons). It works if you're
>switching weapons between, say, a one or two-handed weapon and a pick-axe,
>but it won't work for switching between dual-wielded weapon sets and a
>pick-axe. I guess the way it would work is if you're dual-wielding you can
>have an (alternate weapon, not wielded), and pressing x will switch between
>the dual-wields and the pick-axe (or whatever else it is, I'm just using a
>pick-axe for example). If this might be unbalancing because it'd allow you
>to do something quicker, make the action take two turns.

Use 'X' and make #explore an extended command. You're only ever
going to enter explore mode once in a given game. Weapons will get
switched a lot more often.


Jove
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Anonymous
July 23, 2005 7:32:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

There's also the problem of casting the same spell multiple times.
"n10Za." is interpreted as "n10Z" and then each time it prompts you
what spell you want to cast and where.

Cyde Weys wrote:
> A better method of "taking 20" or at least more than 1 on checking chests
> for traps. Checking chests for traps is tedious; you have to type u, type
> >, then it gives you a prompt "Do you want to check this chest for traps?",
> and then you have to press y. All of this for a single check of a chest
> and you need to check it multiple times to be sure. For the cautious
> person who checks every chest they come across this is very tedious. How
> about making something like n5u> work. Like n5s, but instead of searching
> for hidden doors for five turns, you're searching for hidden traps on a
> chest for five turns.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 12:21:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

> Some sort of autopickup option for spent ammunition. This would make
> ranged weapons a bit less annoying. You'd have to add a single bit (or
> there might already be room) to each struct for weapons and have it be set
> to true when you throw the item. So when you step over the item later, a
> check is made on the bit and it is automatically picked up. An alternative
> would be to be able to set autopickup to work on specific items; this patch
> has already been coded but it is not in vanilla.

What you want is the pickup_thrown patch:
http://bilious.homelinux.org/index.php?act=show&id=98

Greetings,
Benjamin

--
Benjamin 'blindCoder' Schieder
Registered Linux User #289529: http://counter.li.org
finger blindcoder@scavenger.homeip.net | gpg --import
--
/lusr/bin/brain: received signal: SIGIDIOT
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 12:21:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:21:16 +0200, Benjamin Schieder <blindcoder@scavenger.homeip.net>
wrote:

>> Some sort of autopickup option for spent ammunition. This would make
>> ranged weapons a bit less annoying. You'd have to add a single bit (or
>> there might already be room) to each struct for weapons and have it be set
>> to true when you throw the item. So when you step over the item later, a
>> check is made on the bit and it is automatically picked up. An alternative
>> would be to be able to set autopickup to work on specific items; this patch
>> has already been coded but it is not in vanilla.

>
>What you want is the pickup_thrown patch:
>http://bilious.homelinux.org/index.php?act=show&id=98
>

I think that's what he meant by:

>> An alternative
>> would be to be able to set autopickup to work on specific items; this patch
>> has already been coded but it is not in vanilla.


Jove
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 1:49:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:32:15 GMT, Cyde Weys <cyde@umd.edu> wrote:

>>
>A better method of "taking 20" or at least more than 1 on checking chests
>for traps. Checking chests for traps is tedious; you have to type u, type
>>, then it gives you a prompt "Do you want to check this chest for traps?",
>and then you have to press y. All of this for a single check of a chest
>and you need to check it multiple times to be sure. For the cautious
>person who checks every chest they come across this is very tedious. How
>about making something like n5u> work. Like n5s, but instead of searching
>for hidden doors for five turns, you're searching for hidden traps on a
>chest for five turns.

Even a shortcut key for #untrap (say "S" or "C", they don't get used
ingame much and could stand being extended commands) wouldn't help because
the #untrap command needs a direction to decide between checking a door
and a chest/box.

Although if there's just one chest and no door there's not really much
of a decision. Ditto for just one adjacent door and no chests/boxes.

Jove
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 1:52:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

>>What you want is the pickup_thrown patch:
>>http://bilious.homelinux.org/index.php?act=show&id=98
> I think that's what he meant by:
>>> An alternative
>>>would be to be able to set autopickup to work on specific items; this patch
>>>has already been coded but it is not in vanilla.

I saw that in context with slashem, where this is implemented but thought that
there's nothing comparable in vanilla.

Greetings,
Benjamin

--
____ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _____ __ __
/ ___|| | / \ / ___|| | | ( ) ____| \/ |
\___ \| | / _ \ \___ \| |_| |/| _| | |\/| |
___) | |___ / ___ \ ___) | _ | | |___| | | |
|____/|_____/_/ \_\____/|_| |_| |_____|_| |_|
play online: telnet://slashem.crash-override.net
view scores: http://slashem.crash-override.net
watch deaths: irc://irc.freenode.net#slashem
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 2:49:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> "JH" <jwhams@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:H7qdnaEsP-nBQXzfRVn-2Q@comcast.com:
>
>> Cyde Weys wrote:
>>> Also, status
>>> messages should be prioritized in order of seriousness from left to
>>> right on the status line so even if someone is playing with just 80
>>> character columns they won't have the unimportant status "Satiated"
>>> push off the very important status "FoodPois" or whatever it is for
>>> deathly ill.
>>
>> Not to pick on you or anything, but "Satiated" is NOT an unimportant
>> status, as anyone who has ever choked to death will tell you. My
>> recommendation would be to make sure the experience counter is not
>> being displayed, and maybe turn off the turn counter as well
>
> It's not unimportant but it's not nearly as important as FoodPois or
> other ailments that will kill you without taking a specific action (such
> as eating more food). If you had the choice between seeing either
> deathly ill or satiated, which would it be? If you see just satiated you
> aren't going to do anything special; you won't eat more food, but other
> than that you'll consider on your merry way, and then die a horrible
> death. If you see the deathly ill part, you're going to use your
> unihorn, cast a spell, quaff a potion; whatever it takes to get rid of
> the illness. None of these involve eating by the way, so you're still
> safe from a choking death.

You forgot eucalyptus leaves. Now *that* would be an annoying death!

--
Benjamin Lewis

All what we got here is American made.
It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed. -- FZ
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 4:09:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> "Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:
>> Cyde Weys wrote:
>>
>>> I would argue that [showing percentage to next lev instead of absolute
>>> xp is] not spoiling anyone because experience levels are clearly listed
>>> in the guidebook.
>>
>> I would argue it *is* spoiling, because experience levels are not listed
>> in the Guidebook.
>
> Ohh, shows how much I read the guidebook :-P
>
> It's not spoiling at all for people who are already spoiled.

Well, that's true for everything, but I see no reason not to put this
information in the Guidebook or elsewhere. It's not something that's
particularly interesting to have to discover on ones own. I actually
prefer the idea of having the percentage to next level displayed instead of
absolute XP, which is less meaningful from the character's point of view.

The only potential annoyance I can see would be at low levels, for instance
with protection racketeers who are carefully monitoring their XP, and know
exactly how much each monster is worth -- and this wouldn't be an issue if
you made it an option you could toggle.

> It's just kind of a hassle to have to go look-up the experience levels
> each time to see whether quaffing a potion of gain level is worth it at
> the moment.

IMO, it's almost never worth it to quaff potions of gain level for XP,
except when trying to achieve minimum questing level. I think they're much
more useful for alchemy (plus the occasional use of the cursed version).

--
Benjamin Lewis

All what we got here is American made.
It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed. -- FZ
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 4:37:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote in
> news:yy7ou0ilqqym.fsf@marge.cs.sfu.ca:
>
>
>> The only potential annoyance I can see would be at low levels, for
>> instance with protection racketeers who are carefully monitoring their
>> XP, and know exactly how much each monster is worth -- and this
>> wouldn't be an issue if you made it an option you could toggle.
>
> Another potential option would be "combination". Limit it to three
> characters. So up until 999 XP you can see exactly how much you have;
> past that, it's in the XX% format. At the lower levels, especially when
> it's 20 EXP to gain a level, having 5%, 10%, 15% is kind of ridiculous.
> At the higher levels it makes more sense.

I'd even prefer it at the lower levels; I don't think it's ridiculous at
all.

From the point of view of the character, it can be viewed as essentially
"you need 100 XP to gain a level, but as you increase levels, you get less
experience from killing a particular monster", which makes more intuitive
sense to me. At experience level 1, even the lowliest monster is worth 5
XP.

--
Benjamin Lewis

All what we got here is American made.
It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed. -- FZ
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 5:05:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005, Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

(messages and the extremely awesome autopickup exceptions snipped)

> Permission granted to copy for your own use. :-)

....That's just awesome. Just out of curiousity, you have any other tricks
like this up your sleeve? Because I never would've thought of that on my
own.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 5:36:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005, Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> Adam Lawson wrote:
>
>> Because I never would've thought of that on my own.
>
> Well, it's just a question of reading the Guidebook and having some
> patience (just like NetHack!).

Ah, okay. I haven't read all of the Guidebook yet. I guess I should, I
just like figuring out (most) things on my own. I was unaware it had
things how to do that in it, and assumed it was basic playing and
interface/settings stuff; oops.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 5:38:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> [...] status messages should be prioritized in order of seriousness
> [...] so [...] they won't have the unimportant status "Satiated"
> push off the very important status "FoodPois" or whatever it is for
> deathly ill.

I reckon you've never been killed by eating too much? I know I have.
It's the most common reason for my "ascendable" characters to die.

I, for once, wouldn't like "satiated" getting less priority; it occurs
much more often, and is therefore, in my humble opinion, more important
than "ill" (or whatever :-) ).

When I'm fighting the big D, I watch the status line every turn
*anyway*, no matter what. That isn't the case when I'm about to eat
something, I must regrettably add...

> Some sort of autopickup option for spent ammunition. This would make
> ranged weapons a bit less annoying.

There is a patch somewhere that does this. Have a search at Google.

You'd have to add a single bit
> (or there might already be room) to each struct for weapons and have
> it be set to true when you throw the item. So when you step over the
> item later, a check is made on the bit and it is automatically picked
> up. An alternative would be to be able to set autopickup to work on
> specific items; this patch has already been coded but it is not in
> vanilla.

There *is* a workaround: with the autopickup_exceptions, you may set
strings that will cause you to pick up items that fit that string. I
usually #name my arrows/daggers/whatever "Quivered", and put that string
in my autopickup_exceptions option, so these are the only weapons I will
automatically pick up.

> A better method of "taking 20" or at least more than 1 on checking
> chests for traps. Checking chests for traps is tedious; you have to
> type u, type > , then it gives you a prompt "Do you want to check this
> chest for traps?", and then you have to press y.

I believe you can use the ^a command (repeat last command) for this.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 5:53:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

>>Some sort of autopickup option for spent ammunition. This would make
>>ranged weapons a bit less annoying.
> There is a patch somewhere that does this. Have a search at Google.
http://bilious.homelinux.org has it listed.

>>A better method of "taking 20" or at least more than 1 on checking
>>chests for traps. Checking chests for traps is tedious; you have to
>>type u, type > , then it gives you a prompt "Do you want to check this
>>chest for traps?", and then you have to press y.
> I believe you can use the ^a command (repeat last command) for this.

Not really, Nethack will then require a direction if it's a directional spell
but will *not* offer a prompt for it. Whatever the reason for this may be.


Greetings,
Benjamin

--
_ _ _ _ _
| \| |___| |_| |_ __ _ __| |__
| .` / -_) _| ' \/ _` / _| / /
|_|\_\___|\__|_||_\__,_\__|_\_\
| | (_)_ _ _ ___ __
| |__| | ' \ || \ \ /
|____|_|_||_\_,_/_\_\
Play Nethack anywhere with an x86 computer:
http://www.crash-override.net/?nethacklinux
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 5:58:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jym wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005, Benjamin Lewis wrote:
>>
>> IMO, it's almost never worth it to quaff potions of gain level for XP,
>> except when trying to achieve minimum questing level. I think they're
>> much more useful for alchemy (plus the occasional use of the cursed
>> version).
>
> Or for pets.
> The Olog-Ai picks up a potion of gain level.
> The Olog-Ai drinks a potion of gain level.
> The Olog-Ai seems more experienced.

I've always found that pets gain levels quickly enough anyway. Also, it
seems like the more work I put into keeping my pet alive and powerful, the
quicker they succumb to purple worms or other deaths/mysterious
disappearances.

--
Benjamin Lewis

All what we got here is American made.
It's a little bit cheesy, but it's nicely displayed. -- FZ
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 7:14:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:56:05 +0200
"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:

>I knew it as the "grape jelly trick". Funny it still works in NetHack.

I have heard of that from r.g.r.moria, but what does it have to do with grape jellies?
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 7:19:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:09:53 -0700
Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:

>IMO, it's almost never worth it to quaff potions of gain level for XP,
>except when trying to achieve minimum questing level. I think they're much
>more useful for alchemy (plus the occasional use of the cursed version).

And in SLASHEM, they are even more useful for:
<rot13>
Hctenqvat vgrzf. vgf sha gb ghea Qjneivfu veba uryzf vagb uryzf
bs oevyyvnapr, ryira pybnxf vagb ZE pybnxf, naq fb ba.
</rot13>
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 8:01:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"JH" <jwhams@comcast.net> wrote in
news:H7qdnaEsP-nBQXzfRVn-2Q@comcast.com:

> Cyde Weys wrote:
>> Also, status
>> messages should be prioritized in order of seriousness from left to
>> right on the status line so even if someone is playing with just 80
>> character columns they won't have the unimportant status "Satiated"
>> push off the very important status "FoodPois" or whatever it is for
>> deathly ill.
>
> Not to pick on you or anything, but "Satiated" is NOT an unimportant
> status, as anyone who has ever choked to death will tell you. My
> recommendation would be to make sure the experience counter is not
> being displayed, and maybe turn off the turn counter as well

It's not unimportant but it's not nearly as important as FoodPois or other
ailments that will kill you without taking a specific action (such as
eating more food). If you had the choice between seeing either deathly ill
or satiated, which would it be? If you see just satiated you aren't going
to do anything special; you won't eat more food, but other than that you'll
consider on your merry way, and then die a horrible death. If you see the
deathly ill part, you're going to use your unihorn, cast a spell, quaff a
potion; whatever it takes to get rid of the illness. None of these involve
eating by the way, so you're still safe from a choking death.

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 8:01:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:
> "JH" <jwhams@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:H7qdnaEsP-nBQXzfRVn-2Q@comcast.com:
>

[hunger status is less important than illness]

> It's not unimportant but it's not nearly as important as FoodPois or
> other ailments that will kill you without taking a specific action
> (such as eating more food). If you had the choice between seeing
> either deathly ill or satiated, which would it be?

still playing devil's advocate, if statiated is pushed off the status line,
wouldn't that mean that weak or fainting would be pushed off too?

Those can kill you (indirectly)

In any event, it would have to be interface dependant, I've never had this
problem, in fact, I installed a patch that adds "held" to the status line,
and I've never seen a message drop off


Also, there is always a message at the top of the screen associated with
statuses at the bottom of the screen. When fighting anything super
dangerous, it really pays to watch the messages carefully

just my $0.02


--
-JH
Ascended V,A,W(x2),B,K,Ro,C,S,H,T,Ra,P
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 8:04:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote in news:D bta7l
$1jg$1@news1.zwoll1.ov.home.nl:

> Cyde Weys wrote:
>
>> [...] status messages should be prioritized in order of seriousness
>> [...] so [...] they won't have the unimportant status "Satiated"
>> push off the very important status "FoodPois" or whatever it is for
>> deathly ill.
>
> I reckon you've never been killed by eating too much? I know I have.
> It's the most common reason for my "ascendable" characters to die.
>
> I, for once, wouldn't like "satiated" getting less priority; it occurs
> much more often, and is therefore, in my humble opinion, more important
> than "ill" (or whatever :-) ).

I don't understand your viewpoint. If you're not deathly ill satiated will
still be on the same point of the status bar as it always is. Only when
you are deathly ill will satiated be put off to the right behind deathly
ill. The point is that with status line options such as showEXP and
showturns you will often overflow the status line and you'll only be able
to see one or part of one status ("Satiate"). Which status would you
rather see: satiated until you die an ugly death from an illness you didn't
know about, or the illness, which you can cure, and then satiated will show
up on the status line again?

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 8:13:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

I have one more. You'd make showexp a combo option instead of just
true/false. Thus you'd have the choice of the following three ways of
displaying EXP:

Xp: 29
Xp: 29/90137318
Xp: 29/78%

The first one doesn't give enough information, the second one is very
precise but may overflow the status line ... I like the third option
though. It only adds four characters over the default behavior. I would
argue that it's not spoiling anyone because experience levels are clearly
listed in the guidebook. It's simply making things more handy; instead of
looking up the experience levels table each time you want to see how close
you are to the next level, bam, it's right there.


--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 9:07:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 7/22/05 11:32 PM, Cyde Weys wrote:
> An alternative would be to be able to set autopickup to work on
> specific items; this patch has already been coded but it is not in
> vanilla.

It *is* in vanilla. It's even implemented on the Windows binary. It's
not implemented on NAO.

--
Kevin Wayne

"Art is a tremendous means by which painfully guarded individuals bare
their souls." --Steve Hindalong
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 9:36:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kevin Wayne wrote:
> On 7/22/05 11:32 PM, Cyde Weys wrote:
>
>> An alternative would be to be able to set autopickup to work on
>> specific items; this patch has already been coded but it is not in
>> vanilla.
>
>
> It *is* in vanilla. It's even implemented on the Windows binary. It's
> not implemented on NAO.
>
Although it seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you have to set
pickup_types to pick up only iron chains, or else it will pick up
everything and your autopickup_exceptions will be useless.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 10:07:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On that special day, Boudewijn Waijers,
(kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl) said...

> I, for once, wouldn't like "satiated" getting less priority; it occurs
> much more often, and is therefore, in my humble opinion, more important
> than "ill"

This comment sparked another idea, which probably had been proposed
before - something like castor oil. You are afraid that you could
choke, and the dragon before is about to rot away, before you can eat
it completely?

quaff a potion of oil, that makes you vomit, and there is room in your
stomach. Is this already implemented?


Gabriele Neukam

Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam@t-online.de


--
Ah, Information. A property, too valuable these days, to give it away,
just so, at no cost.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 10:43:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"JH" <jwhams@comcast.net> wrote in
news:YeadnaU_zaOy43_fRVn-tA@comcast.com:

> Cyde Weys wrote:
>> "JH" <jwhams@comcast.net> wrote in
>> news:H7qdnaEsP-nBQXzfRVn-2Q@comcast.com:
>>
>
> [hunger status is less important than illness]
>
>> It's not unimportant but it's not nearly as important as FoodPois or
>> other ailments that will kill you without taking a specific action
>> (such as eating more food). If you had the choice between seeing
>> either deathly ill or satiated, which would it be?
>
> still playing devil's advocate, if statiated is pushed off the status
> line, wouldn't that mean that weak or fainting would be pushed off
> too?

No, hungry, weak and then fainting are progressively higher priority. The
only way fainting would be pushed off the status line is if you were
afflicted with deathly ill or food poisoning.

By the way "pushed off" is only in situations where you're using a bunch of
options to showexp, showscore, etc. on the status line. Otherwise it would
just alter the order of the ailments displayed.



--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 11:16:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote in
news:yy7ou0ilqqym.fsf@marge.cs.sfu.ca:


> The only potential annoyance I can see would be at low levels, for
> instance with protection racketeers who are carefully monitoring their
> XP, and know exactly how much each monster is worth -- and this
> wouldn't be an issue if you made it an option you could toggle.

Another potential option would be "combination". Limit it to three
characters. So up until 999 XP you can see exactly how much you have; past
that, it's in the XX% format. At the lower levels, especially when it's 20
EXP to gain a level, having 5%, 10%, 15% is kind of ridiculous. At the
higher levels it makes more sense.


--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 11:23:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> The point is that with status line
> options such as showEXP and showturns you will often overflow the
> status line and you'll only be able to see one or part of one status
> ("Satiate").

Don't do that, then!

(using showexp and/or time)

Time is somewhat useful, but you can always turn it on when you need it.
And showexp is completely useless, unless you want to put on that ring
of gain constitution when you expect to gain a level, for a larger
increase in HP (does that work, or am I fooling myself?).

> Which status would you rather see: satiated until you
> die an ugly death from an illness you didn't know about, or the
> illness, which you can cure, and then satiated will show up on the
> status line again?

I wouldn't mind not seeing the "ill" notification, since when I am
fighting a monster that may cause it, I watch the messages the game
gives me, so I already know that I'm ill.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 11:23:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote in news:D btuds
$uet$1@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl:

> Cyde Weys wrote:
>> Which status would you rather see: satiated until you
>> die an ugly death from an illness you didn't know about, or the
>> illness, which you can cure, and then satiated will show up on the
>> status line again?
>
> I wouldn't mind not seeing the "ill" notification, since when I am
> fighting a monster that may cause it, I watch the messages the game
> gives me, so I already know that I'm ill.

It was my fault for being somewhat hasty in combat, I admit, but after
killing him 15 times maybe I just got careless. After I killed him for the
sixteenth time I thought, hrrrmmm, am I still sick? So I looked at the
status line and nope ... just satiated. So I walked fifteen squares and
BOOM, dead.

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 11:25:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:22:04 +0200
Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:

>Actually, on the graphical version (at least the one I used (X11
>interface)), there is some reserved space for satiated/hungry/..., ill,
>foodpois, and other bad news. So you can be at the same time satiated,
>ill, foodpois, hallucinating, stuned and confused and see it all without
>problem (and fumble for your unihorn).

In fact, before you start a new game, Gnome-nethack shows all these. the first time I played it I
Thought I had started with extra illnesses/conditions.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 11:26:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:02:51 +0200
Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:

>"Sitting on a toilet cures your sickness if you are sick, and makes you
>less satiated by 200-599 nutrition points if you are satiated. Otherwise,
>you don't have to go, and there is no effect."
>(from Eva's page)
>
>And also :
>"Use of the #pray command at a toilet is deemed to be an attempt to ``pray
>to the Porcelain God''. This does not affect your prayer timeout, or
>require you to satisfy any of the conditions for praying successfully. It
>currently violates atheist conduct, but this is likely to change in the
>near future. If you are sick, stunned, or confused, ``He smiles upon you''
>and you are cured. Otherwise, ``He ignores your pleas''."

And its the easiest way in the game to poison a weapon.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 11:26:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Gabriele Neukam wrote:
> On that special day, Boudewijn Waijers,
> (kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl) said...

> quaff a potion of oil, that makes you vomit, and there is room in your
> stomach. Is this already implemented?

Not that I know of, but you could always eat a tripe ration.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 11:30:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> I would argue that it's not spoiling anyone because experience levels
> are clearly listed in the guidebook.

I would argue it *is* spoiling, because experience levels are not listed
in the Guidebook.

I nevertheless do like the idea, though.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 11:30:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote in news:D bturf
$ds6$1@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl:

> Cyde Weys wrote:
>
>> I would argue that it's not spoiling anyone because experience levels
>> are clearly listed in the guidebook.
>
> I would argue it *is* spoiling, because experience levels are not listed
> in the Guidebook.

Ohh, shows how much I read the guidebook :-P

It's not spoiling at all for people who are already spoiled. It's just
kind of a hassle to have to go look-up the experience levels each time to
see whether quaffing a potion of gain level is worth it at the moment.

--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 11:34:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

> Time is somewhat useful, but you can always turn it on when you need it.
> And showexp is completely useless, unless you want to put on that ring
> of gain constitution when you expect to gain a level, for a larger
> increase in HP (does that work, or am I fooling myself?).

Yes, that works. In combination with [+-]5 helm of brilliance and rings of gain
strength/constitution and the staff of misspelling or stormbringer it is called
the drain level scam on nao :-)


Greetings,
Benjamin

--
The Nethack IdleRPG! Idle to your favorite Nethack messages!
http://pallas.crash-override.net/nethackidle/
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 11:53:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

JH wrote:

> Also, there is always a message at the top of the screen associated
> with statuses at the bottom of the screen. When fighting anything
> super dangerous, it really pays to watch the messages carefully

Exactly why I think that the satiated message is more important.

I *do* pay attention to the status lines when I'm in a dangerous fight.
It's when I'm just idly strutting around that I don't pay attention to
it, and that's precisely when the satiated message is bound to appear.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 11:56:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Benjamin Schieder wrote:

>> Time is somewhat useful, but you can always turn it on when you need
>> it. And showexp is completely useless, unless you want to put on
>> that ring of gain constitution when you expect to gain a level, for
>> a larger increase in HP (does that work, or am I fooling myself?).

> Yes, that works. In combination with [+-]5 helm of brilliance and
> rings of gain strength/constitution and the staff of misspelling or
> stormbringer it is called the drain level scam on nao :-)

I knew it as the "grape jelly trick". Funny it still works in NetHack.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 11:59:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

BManx2000 wrote:
> Kevin Wayne wrote:
>> Cyde Weys wrote:

>>> An alternative would be to be able to set autopickup to work on
>>> specific items; this patch has already been coded but it is not in
>>> vanilla.

>> It *is* in vanilla. It's even implemented on the Windows binary. It's
>> not implemented on NAO.

> Although it seems (correct me if I'm wrong) that you have to set
> pickup_types to pick up only iron chains, or else it will pick up
> everything and your autopickup_exceptions will be useless.

From my options file ("<" means: pick up; ">" means: don't pick up):

# Autopickup everything but weapons, boulders, and chains:
OPTIONS=autopickup,pickup_types:$"=/!?+(*%[
# Pick up all tools except the heavy ones:
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*chest*"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*box*"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*orb"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*crystal ball"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*grease*"
# Pick up all stones except the following:
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*grey stone"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*gray stone"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*loadstone"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*rock"
# Pick up all food except corpses:
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*corpse"
# Pick up all armour that's not too heavy; you could opt to include
# shields here as well, or leave armour out of autopickup entirely
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*mail"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*armor"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*armour"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION=">*tanko"
# No autopickup for weapons, except for the "stackable" ones; the
# heavy stackables like lances are not mentioned here:
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*dagger"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*dart"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*spear"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*bolt"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*arrow"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*ya"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*scalpel"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*shuriken"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*throwing star"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*knife"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*shito"
# Just in case...
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*athame"
# Pick up named items in general
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<the *"
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<The *"
# Pick up known blessed items (priests may remove this line if they
# feel they're picking up too much):
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*blessed*"
# I name my ammo "Quiver", for autopickup, so even when I remove the
# above lines for stackable weapons, those are still picked up:
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION="<*Quiver*"

Permission granted to copy for your own use. :-)

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 12:22:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Adam Lawson wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005, Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> (messages and the extremely awesome autopickup exceptions snipped)

>> Permission granted to copy for your own use. :-)

> ...That's just awesome. Just out of curiousity, you have any other
> tricks like this up your sleeve?

Sorry, that's the whole of my autopickup section.

On NAO, I noticed someone who had redefined the MONSTERS option, turning
the symbol for ghosts and shades into a "7" instead of the default space
character. Handy if you don't want to confuse them with a dark empty
space or a wall.

> Because I never would've thought of that on my own.

Well, it's just a question of reading the Guidebook and having some
patience (just like NetHack!).

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 12:48:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> Gabriele Neukam wrote:
>
>>On that special day, Boudewijn Waijers,
>>(kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl) said...
>
>
>>quaff a potion of oil, that makes you vomit, and there is room in your
>>stomach. Is this already implemented?
>
>
> Not that I know of, but you could always eat a tripe ration.
>
YANI: The stomach pump ;) 
July 24, 2005 12:51:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

> By the way "pushed off" is only in situations where you're using a bunch of
> options to showexp, showscore, etc. on the status line. Otherwise it would
> just alter the order of the ailments displayed.
>
>
>

Are you people all playing the graphical version? I never get status messages
"pushed off" the end of the screen, they wordwrap to the second last line on
the screen (the line after the second status line). Granted I'm playing in
unix, but I would think that msdos full screen would have the same effect.
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 1:36:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

noah bedford wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:56:05 +0200
> "Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:

>> I knew it as the "grape jelly trick". Funny it still works in
>> NetHack.

> I have heard of that from r.g.r.moria, but what does it have to do
> with grape jellies?

The grape jelly is one of several kinds of jellies in moria; most of
them having some draining attack.

The grape jelly drains experience, but does not move. In moria, there is
a potion of restore life levels which restores drained levels (not sure
if it restores one or all levels). Let's say it restores all levels.

Find one or two rings of gain constitution. You may often find them in
the Town shops.

Stock up on these potions: try to carry as many of these with you as
possible. Go down to the first level where grape jellies are eligable to
appear. Clear that level; monsters are not generated in your vicinity.

Keep running around on that level until you find a grape jelly. Take off
your rings, stand next to the grape jelly, and let it drain your level.
Your HP will be decreased according to your lower constitution (say, 1d8
per level). When your level is getting dangerously low (read: 1), move
out of reach of the grape jelly, put on those rings, and quaff a potion
of restore life levels. Now, you'll regain your levels and HP according
to your new, higher, constitution (say, 1d8 + 4 per level).

Rinse and repeat, and your HP will get an enormous boost.

Not that this bug has been fixed in the last versions; your HP increase
and decrease is now dependent on your *real* constitution, not your
current.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 1:42:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> It's not spoiling at all for people who are already spoiled. It's
> just kind of a hassle to have to go look-up the experience levels
> each time to see whether quaffing a potion of gain level is worth it
> at the moment.

Reasoning like this, there are no spoilers. You might just as well put
all in-game values in the in-game help files (magic cancellation of
armour, damage of weapons, etc.), since everyone looks them up anyway...

You're ignoring the fact that not everyone reads the spoilers, so jou
cannot just add every bit of spoily information to the game.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 1:53:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> JH wrote:
>
>
>>Also, there is always a message at the top of the screen associated
>>with statuses at the bottom of the screen. When fighting anything
>>super dangerous, it really pays to watch the messages carefully
>
>
> Exactly why I think that the satiated message is more important.
>
> I *do* pay attention to the status lines when I'm in a dangerous fight.
> It's when I'm just idly strutting around that I don't pay attention to
> it, and that's precisely when the satiated message is bound to appear.
>

o_O

You get satiated by idly strutting around? Unfair! I actually have to
eat something to get satiated! (Or quaff, or engulf/swallow, or bite as
a vampire [Is that Slash'EM specific?], but those require not idly
strutting around)

--
____ (__)
/ \ (oo) -Zarel
|Moo. > \/
\____/
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 2:27:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005, Cyde Weys wrote:

> I have one more. You'd make showexp a combo option instead of just
> true/false. Thus you'd have the choice of the following three ways of
> displaying EXP:
>
> Xp: 29
> Xp: 29/90137318
> Xp: 29/78%
>
> The first one doesn't give enough information, the second one is very
> precise but may overflow the status line ... I like the third option
> though. It only adds four characters over the default behavior. I would
> argue that it's not spoiling anyone because experience levels are clearly
> listed in the guidebook.

A quick search (for words 'level' and 'experience' through the guidebook
was not succesful. Could you remind me in which section they are listed ?

> It's simply making things more handy; instead of
> looking up the experience levels table each time you want to see how close
> you are to the next level, bam, it's right there.

Except that you don't know if that last needed percent is a single XP or
thousands of XP and you start getting frustrated because you stay at 99%
even after several kills, thus giving not enough information (on when to
put your ring of gain constitution).

Plus, I really think that knowing precisely when you'll gain a level is
not often useful and almost always at low levels (typically a wizard
starting with a ring of gain constitution) at which values are easy enough
to both read and remember (2^n * 10).

--
Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

Adresse mail plus valide à partir de septembre 2005.
Utiliser l'adresse de redirection permanente :
Jean-Yves.Moyen `at` ens-lyon.org
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 2:50:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005, Benjamin Lewis wrote:

[percentage XP]

> The only potential annoyance I can see would be at low levels, for instance
> with protection racketeers who are carefully monitoring their XP, and know
> exactly how much each monster is worth -- and this wouldn't be an issue if
> you made it an option you could toggle.

OTOH, protection racketeers usually have sufficiently low level to need
less than 100XP to change level and thus percentage will be a sufficient
enough information (but requiring a bit more maths).

> > It's just kind of a hassle to have to go look-up the experience levels
> > each time to see whether quaffing a potion of gain level is worth it at
> > the moment.
>
> IMO, it's almost never worth it to quaff potions of gain level for XP,
> except when trying to achieve minimum questing level. I think they're much
> more useful for alchemy (plus the occasional use of the cursed version).

Or for pets.
The Olog-Ai picks up a potion of gain level.
The Olog-Ai drinks a potion of gain level.
The Olog-Ai seems more experienced.

--
Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

Adresse mail plus valide à partir de septembre 2005.
Utiliser l'adresse de redirection permanente :
Jean-Yves.Moyen `at` ens-lyon.org
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 3:02:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005, BManx2000 wrote:

> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> > Gabriele Neukam wrote:
> >
> >>On that special day, Boudewijn Waijers,
> >>(kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl) said...
> >
> >
> >>quaff a potion of oil, that makes you vomit, and there is room in your
> >>stomach. Is this already implemented?
> >
> >
> > Not that I know of, but you could always eat a tripe ration.
> >
> YANI: The stomach pump ;) 

Slash'em has toilets.

"Sitting on a toilet cures your sickness if you are sick, and makes you
less satiated by 200-599 nutrition points if you are satiated. Otherwise,
you don't have to go, and there is no effect."
(from Eva's page)

And also :
"Use of the #pray command at a toilet is deemed to be an attempt to ``pray
to the Porcelain God''. This does not affect your prayer timeout, or
require you to satisfy any of the conditions for praying successfully. It
currently violates atheist conduct, but this is likely to change in the
near future. If you are sick, stunned, or confused, ``He smiles upon you''
and you are cured. Otherwise, ``He ignores your pleas''."

--
Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

Adresse mail plus valide à partir de septembre 2005.
Utiliser l'adresse de redirection permanente :
Jean-Yves.Moyen `at` ens-lyon.org
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 3:03:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

>> Not that I know of, but you could always eat a tripe ration.
> YANI: The stomach pump ;) 

There's one in S. Called toilet.

Greetings,
Benjamin

--
The Nethack IdleRPG! Idle to your favorite Nethack messages!
http://pallas.crash-override.net/nethackidle/
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 3:19:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005, Benjamin Lewis wrote:

> Jym wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 23 Jul 2005, Benjamin Lewis wrote:
> >>
> >> IMO, it's almost never worth it to quaff potions of gain level for XP,
> >> except when trying to achieve minimum questing level. I think they're
> >> much more useful for alchemy (plus the occasional use of the cursed
> >> version).
> >
> > Or for pets.
> > The Olog-Ai picks up a potion of gain level.
> > The Olog-Ai drinks a potion of gain level.
> > The Olog-Ai seems more experienced.
>
> I've always found that pets gain levels quickly enough anyway. Also, it
> seems like the more work I put into keeping my pet alive and powerful, the
> quicker they succumb to purple worms or other deaths/mysterious
> disappearances.

IIRC, they can reach higher levels via potions of gain levels than via
plain combat. of course, you then need to give the potions to them when
they've already maxed their regular level.

Actually, the Olog-Ais (there was two of them) I gave those potions (there
was three of them) where abandonned a little later during the run because
they was eating while I want to climb up...
(Yeah, that's how I repay loyalty...)

--
Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

Adresse mail plus valide à partir de septembre 2005.
Utiliser l'adresse de redirection permanente :
Jean-Yves.Moyen `at` ens-lyon.org
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 3:22:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005, chuck wrote:

>
> > By the way "pushed off" is only in situations where you're using a bunch of
> > options to showexp, showscore, etc. on the status line. Otherwise it would
> > just alter the order of the ailments displayed.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Are you people all playing the graphical version? I never get status messages
> "pushed off" the end of the screen, they wordwrap to the second last line on
> the screen (the line after the second status line). Granted I'm playing in
> unix, but I would think that msdos full screen would have the same effect.

Actually, on the graphical version (at least the one I used (X11
interface)), there is some reserved space for satiated/hungry/..., ill,
foodpois, and other bad news. So you can be at the same time satiated,
ill, foodpois, hallucinating, stuned and confused and see it all without
problem (and fumble for your unihorn).

--
Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

Adresse mail plus valide à partir de septembre 2005.
Utiliser l'adresse de redirection permanente :
Jean-Yves.Moyen `at` ens-lyon.org
!