RFC: intrinsic polymorph control

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Hi,

I have an idea to change polymorph (control).

I'd suggest the rings that currently do this are both abolished, and
replaced by the following system:

- You can polymorph by
- eating a chameleon corpse;
- quaffing a potion of polymorph;
- zapping a wand of polymorph at yourself; or
- using any other currently available method excluding the ring.

A polymorph control counter is introduced. This polymorph control
counter indicates the percentage chance that when you next polymorph,
you may control what you'll polymorph into.

This counter starts at a value from 0 to 10, varying per class. Every
time you polymorph (by any means), the counter is increased by one, two
or three, again dependent on class. The maximum value that may be
reached is again dependent on class.

Here are some suggested values:

Arc Bar Cav Hea Kni Mon Pri Ran Rog Sam Tou Val Wiz
Starting value 3 1 0 5 2 4 6 4 8 0 2 0 10
Increase per PM 2 1 1 2 2 3 2 2 3 1 1 1 3
Maximum percentage 40 30 30 60 40 90 80 60 90 30 40 30 90

Any ideas, comments, opinions or flames?

Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
17 answers Last reply
More about intrinsic polymorph control
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    "Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote in news:dcaao9
    $st7$1@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl:

    > Hi,

    Howdy

    > I have an idea to change polymorph (control).
    >
    > I'd suggest the rings that currently do this are both abolished, and
    > replaced by the following system:
    >
    > - You can polymorph by
    > - eating a chameleon corpse;
    > - quaffing a potion of polymorph;
    > - zapping a wand of polymorph at yourself; or
    > - using any other currently available method excluding the ring.
    >
    > A polymorph control counter is introduced. This polymorph control
    > counter indicates the percentage chance that when you next polymorph,
    > you may control what you'll polymorph into.

    This seems reminiscent of the doppelganger race in Slash'Em.

    > This counter starts at a value from 0 to 10, varying per class. Every
    > time you polymorph (by any means), the counter is increased by one, two
    > or three, again dependent on class. The maximum value that may be
    > reached is again dependent on class.

    Why not have it vary according to someone's constitution than a random
    integer? There can be plenty of early polymorph attempts, and sometimes
    later ones, that end with the new form was too weak to live.

    Why not have polymorph control for an individual who has already observed
    or eaten or tamed a certain kind of monster? This would prevent someone
    from becoming a red dragon or master lich on DL1.

    Make polymorph control into an intrinsic acquired when one eats a
    doppelganger. Same chance of acquiring it as getting fire/cold resistance
    from eating red/brown mold corpses.

    Also I'd like to suggest a new class. Contortionist. Humans and elves can
    be contortionists. I can't see dwarves, gnomes or orcs being as supple.
    They start out with the intrinsic of free action, at XL7 they gain
    polymorph control and at XL18 they acquire petrification resistance
    because they are just that limber. Insert joke that they're more
    attractive to foocubi. I reckon their difficulty level would be around
    the tourist class.
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

    > I have an idea to change polymorph (control).


    Hmm.

    I like the idea of shaking up the poly control system, but I'm not sure
    how.

    I quite like the idea of "collecting" forms that you can assume.
    Perhpas by eating monsters, or maybe by some other action.

    I seem to recall a rather cool 'tattoo' YANI a while back where
    tattooing monsters onto your body forced you into that form when you
    poly (much like wearing dragon scales force you into the dragon form).

    That would be cool.
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    dogsc...@eudoramail.com wrote:
    > I quite like the idea of "collecting" forms that you can assume.
    > Perhpas by eating monsters, or maybe by some other action

    In a certain mulitplayer Roguelike (Tomenet) if playing the Mimic class
    you can morph at will into monsters after killing a certain number of
    them. Also taken into effect is your skill level at mimicry, and of
    course the higher level the monster, the more you needed to kill.

    Not sure if you actually want to do it this way, and introduce a
    Mimicry/polymorph skill that you need to enhance similar to magic and
    weaponry.
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    dogscoff@eudoramail.com wrote:
    > I quite like the idea of "collecting" forms that you can assume.
    > Perhpas by eating monsters, or maybe by some other action.
    >

    You could do it the Animorphs way and have it be touching (punching with
    gloves off I guess). You could take it even further by making it so that
    after a certain number of turns, if you didn't polymorph back, you would
    turn into the monster permanantly (also from Animorphs).
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 7/28/05 6:06 AM, Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have an idea to change polymorph (control).
    >
    > I'd suggest the rings that currently do this are both abolished, and
    > replaced by the following system:

    [snip some details]

    Just curious about what you think is wrong with the present system. The
    certainty of being able to poly without fail, given the right equipment?

    > This counter starts at a value from 0 to 10, varying per class. Every
    > time you polymorph (by any means), the counter is increased by one, two
    > or three, again dependent on class. The maximum value that may be
    > reached is again dependent on class.
    >
    > Here are some suggested values:
    >
    > Arc Bar Cav Hea Kni Mon Pri Ran Rog Sam Tou Val Wiz
    > Starting value 3 1 0 5 2 4 6 4 8 0 2 0 10
    > Increase per PM 2 1 1 2 2 3 2 2 3 1 1 1 3
    > Maximum percentage 40 30 30 60 40 90 80 60 90 30 40 30 90

    What is your rationale for basing it on class, and why this particular
    distribution? I might suggest basing it on race (which is even more in
    need of differentiation than class, IMO) and perhaps giving the highest
    possibility to humans, who tend to be inferior in most respects than
    most races.

    If polymorph-ability were based on class, I guess I understand some of
    your rationales. Most wombat classes are low, spellcasters are higher,
    reflecting (I presume) orientation toward magic (polymorph being one
    type). I'm not sure why Rogues should be so high--they might *want* to
    conceal their identities, but I'm not sure why that should translate
    into an *ability* to do so. I'm also not sure I like making the Wizard
    endgame even easier than it is.

    I'm also not sure that this wouldn't simply stifle polyself-based
    tactics altogether. Best-case scenario: a Wizard is going to take 26
    polymorphs to attain (nearly) dependable poly control. That's a lot of
    polymorphing, especially without having a ring to make it costless. To
    balance, maybe eating a chameleon corpse would confer polymorphitis,
    rather than a one-time poly.

    --
    Kevin Wayne

    "Art is a tremendous means by which painfully guarded individuals bare
    their souls." --Steve Hindalong
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:50:53 GMT
    BManx2000 <bmanx2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >touching (punching with
    >gloves off I guess).

    I guess you don't become a cockatrice then...
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:39:22 GMT
    Kevin Wayne <killedbyafoo@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >giving the highest
    >possibility to humans, who tend to be inferior in most respects than
    >most races.

    Go humans! (and if you choose to be a xorn, double that chance, because I like xorns.)
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Kevin Wayne wrote:

    > Just curious about what you think is wrong with the present system.
    > The certainty of being able to poly without fail, given the right
    > equipment?

    Indeed. I think there should always be a risk in polymorphing yourself,
    even with the best of characters.

    >> A B C H K M P Ra Ro S T V W
    >> Starting value 3 1 0 5 2 4 6 4 8 0 2 0 10
    >> Increase per PM 2 1 1 2 2 3 2 2 3 1 1 1 3
    >> Maximum percentage 40 30 30 60 40 90 80 60 90 30 40 30 90

    > What is your rationale for basing it on class, and why this particular
    > distribution? I might suggest basing it on race (which is even more in
    > need of differentiation than class, IMO) and perhaps giving the
    > highest possibility to humans, who tend to be inferior in most
    > respects than most races.

    Humans have already the enormous advantage that they may play any class,
    and their stats can all become 18 (or 18/00 for strength).

    My idea was first sparked by the rogue quest. I thought that rogues
    should have a better chance of being able to control their polymorph
    when they eat one of the chameleon corpses on the quest.

    Of course, given common myth, wizards should also be able to polymorph
    themselves quite controlled, and since monks use no weapons, I thought
    they should also be adept to polymorphing themselves into things that
    don't use weapons either.

    > If polymorph-ability were based on class, I guess I understand some of
    > your rationales. Most wombat classes are low, spellcasters are higher,
    > reflecting (I presume) orientation toward magic (polymorph being one
    > type). I'm not sure why Rogues should be so high--they might *want* to
    > conceal their identities, but I'm not sure why that should translate
    > into an *ability* to do so.

    See above. It's to make their quest somewhat more easy, if you prepare
    in advance by raising your polymorph control counter. This would be a
    matter of taste, of course, since it involves lots of uncontrolled
    polymorphs earlier, which would be quite dangerous.

    > I'm also not sure I like making the Wizard
    > endgame even easier than it is.

    What's so different about the wizard endgame? Not the, contrary to the
    current system, one can never be sure a polymorph will be controlled.
    The (unspoken) idea was that when a polymorph ends up uncontrolled, you
    will randomly polymorph. Not a gamble you'd want to take in the endgame.

    > I'm also not sure that this wouldn't simply stifle polyself-based
    > tactics altogether. Best-case scenario: a Wizard is going to take 26
    > polymorphs to attain (nearly) dependable poly control. That's a lot of
    > polymorphing, especially without having a ring to make it costless. To
    > balance, maybe eating a chameleon corpse would confer polymorphitis,
    > rather than a one-time poly.

    Well, the numbers may of course be tweaked, you could for example change
    the 1-2-3 row into 2-4-6's. Then it would take a wizard only 13
    polymorphs to reach maximum skill.

    --
    Boudewijn.

    --
    "I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
    as my signature..." - Me
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
    >
    > I have an idea to change polymorph (control).
    >
    > I'd suggest the rings that currently do this are both abolished, and
    > replaced by the following system:
    >
    > - You can polymorph by
    > - eating a chameleon corpse;
    > - quaffing a potion of polymorph;
    > - zapping a wand of polymorph at yourself; or
    > - using any other currently available method excluding the ring.
    >
    > A polymorph control counter is introduced. This polymorph control
    > counter indicates the percentage chance that when you next polymorph,
    > you may control what you'll polymorph into.

    Bare-handed combat and riding both use the skil system.
    Sounds like polyself could be treated the same and reuse
    much of the same code. So many polyself's and "You feel
    more confidence in your skills".
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    noah bedford wrote:

    > On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 00:50:53 GMT
    > BManx2000 <bmanx2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >
    >>touching (punching with
    >>gloves off I guess).
    >
    > I guess you don't become a cockatrice then...

    Unless you do it while already petrification-resistant (like a yellow
    dragon) or made of stone (like a stone golem).

    Raisse, petrified by a cockatrice

    --
    irina@valdyas.org LegoHack: http://www.valdyas.org/irina/nethack/
    Status of Raisse (piously neutral): Level 8 HP 63(67) AC -3, fast.
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:08:26 GMT
    Kevin Wayne <killedbyafoo@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >Of course, monks can also poly into things that *do* use weapons, or use
    >weapons in their natural form, for that matter.

    They still get the penalty it SLASHEM.
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:42:04 -0500
    noah bedford <noahbedford@gmail.com> wrote:

    >it
    ^^
    In.
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 7/29/05 4:25 AM, Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
    > Kevin Wayne wrote:
    >
    >> Humans tend to be inferior in most respects than most
    >> races.
    >
    > Humans have already the enormous advantage that they may play any class,

    That's a meaningless "advantage", given that a characters class is fixed
    within the scope of any single game. Since the *player* may already play
    any class, it reduces to "A player may choose to play any class as a
    human." No in-game advantage there.

    > and their stats can all become 18 (or 18/00 for strength).

    The stats for other races are limited in some respects and enhanced in
    some respects. For ease of reference in this discussion, here's the table:

    Player Race STR INT WIS DEX CON CHA
    ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
    dwarf 18/** 16 16 20 20 16
    elf 18 20 20 18 16 18
    gnome 18/50 19 18 18 18 18
    human 18/** 18 18 18 18 18
    orc 18/50 16 16 18 18 16

    The only race I see as being clearly inferior is the orc. (As it should
    be.) Some limitations are almost meaningless (e.g., CHA) and some can be
    overcome by GoP or HoB.

    Plus every other race receives infravision, as well as other benefits:

    elf - XL 4 : Sleep resistance

    gnome - Can use uncursed touchstones as blessed.

    orc - XL 1 : Poison resistance
    Exempt from penalties for cannibalism and eating domestic animals.

    All in all, I still hold that humans have fewer advantages than other
    classes (although I have a predilection for playing them anyway; I
    identify with the character better).

    > My idea was first sparked by the rogue quest. I thought that rogues
    > should have a better chance of being able to control their polymorph
    > when they eat one of the chameleon corpses on the quest.

    Is the rogue quest unreasonably hard? (Haven't done it yet.)
    >
    > Of course, given common myth, wizards should also be able to polymorph
    > themselves quite controlled, and since monks use no weapons, I thought
    > they should also be adept to polymorphing themselves into things that
    > don't use weapons either.

    Of course, monks can also poly into things that *do* use weapons, or use
    weapons in their natural form, for that matter.

    >> I'm also not sure I like making the Wizard endgame even easier than
    >> it is.
    >
    > What's so different about the wizard endgame? Not the, contrary to the
    > current system, one can never be sure a polymorph will be controlled.
    > The (unspoken) idea was that when a polymorph ends up uncontrolled, you
    > will randomly polymorph. Not a gamble you'd want to take in the endgame.

    I was using "endgame" pretty loosely. Wizards are thought by good
    players to be one of the easier classes; certainly this is not true of
    the early game. I was thinking of the advantages in spellcasting. And I
    do like the thought of polymorph always containing an element of risk.

    --
    Kevin Wayne

    "Art is a tremendous means by which painfully guarded individuals bare
    their souls." --Steve Hindalong
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Kevin Wayne wrote:
    > On 7/29/05 4:25 AM, Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
    >
    >> My idea was first sparked by the rogue quest. I thought that rogues
    >> should have a better chance of being able to control their polymorph
    >> when they eat one of the chameleon corpses on the quest.
    >
    > Is the rogue quest unreasonably hard? (Haven't done it yet.)

    You may land in an area where you won't reach the quest nemesis, and
    the level is undiggable. Polymorphing into a xorn is one possibility
    to solve the problem.

    Janis
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Kevin Wayne wrote:
    >
    > The stats for other races are limited in some respects and enhanced in
    > some respects. For ease of reference in this discussion, here's the table:
    >
    > Player Race STR INT WIS DEX CON CHA
    > ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
    > dwarf 18/** 16 16 20 20 16
    > elf 18 20 20 18 16 18
    > gnome 18/50 19 18 18 18 18
    > human 18/** 18 18 18 18 18
    > orc 18/50 16 16 18 18 16

    It's the first time that I see a neatly compiled table of these values.

    The data makes me wonder why orcs and gnomes have a relative high CHA,
    why dwarfs have a high DEX, and, though getting very old, have a low WIS.

    Janis
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 7/29/05 9:11 PM, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    > Kevin Wayne wrote:
    >
    >>The stats for other races are limited in some respects and enhanced in
    >>some respects. For ease of reference in this discussion, here's the table:
    >>
    >>Player Race STR INT WIS DEX CON CHA
    >>~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
    >>dwarf 18/** 16 16 20 20 16
    >>elf 18 20 20 18 16 18
    >>gnome 18/50 19 18 18 18 18
    >>human 18/** 18 18 18 18 18
    >>orc 18/50 16 16 18 18 16
    >
    >
    > It's the first time that I see a neatly compiled table of these values.

    The table is from STAT-343.txt on Dylan's site.

    --
    Kevin Wayne

    "Art is a tremendous means by which painfully guarded individuals bare
    their souls." --Steve Hindalong
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Kevin Wayne wrote:
    > On 7/29/05 9:11 PM, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    >>
    >> It's the first time that I see a neatly compiled table of these values.
    >
    > The table is from STAT-343.txt on Dylan's site.

    Aha, thank's for the info.

    I should have a closer look at all these spoilers. (Currently I dig up
    all the data I need from the source, which is a bit less comfortable.)

    Janis
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