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More biased BS, Tom is Full of [-peep-].

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July 3, 2001 6:40:39 PM

AMD lemmings must be having a field days with Toms recent article, whitch is BS from the first sentace.

Lets bench an "alpha" board against seasoned products, seems fair since the "alpha" board is not due for release for another 6 months. That always makes for good AMD sales.

"The average performance loss of i845/PC133 vs. i850/PC800 is almost 21% and therefore unacceptable. 3D gamers should rather go for the more attractive Athlon-solutions unless they want to spend the big bucks for Pentium 4 plus RDRAM"

On our i845 reference board, we are getting 15~25% increase across the board w/RDRAM over wilmette. no clue why Tom is slamming a "alpha" board must be sheer profesionalism. Tom doesnt want you to know that you can buy a P4 w/Geforce3 for under a grand now. seems $1000 is far beyond acceptable price for high end system that beats AMD in everything except office performance.

On all your tests it shows P4 beating the crap out of the AMD, except for office performance... now read what I just quoted and think to yourself "WTF would a gamer base his buying decision on AMD wining at office performance?"

WTG Tom, next time think about what your posting before you click the save button. but then again your a loser and we cannot expect anything non biased from you anyway.

This is Toms usual style to bash Intel in every sentance. you have to get to page 3 before he even gets done ranting, what a [-peep-] loser. Nice to see that you fear SSE2 when you mention that "hand coded" part. it owns you.

It is true that CPUIDZ does not report northwood correctly.

Too bad you lemmings live on what tom spews.

Good analogy, what was the first release date of 760MP? now go back 6 more months and imagine where the 760MP was at indevelopment. "white papers" or "actual product to be benched against seasoned technology?" truth is AMD 760MP was still on paper 6 months before first release date. now go take that piece of paper and bench it agaist cyrix or something intelligent.

More about : biased tom full peep

July 3, 2001 7:03:40 PM

LoL
Mayeb so, but still, without AMD where would the prices of the Intel CPU's be ? Facts are still facts, AMD isn't [-peep-], Intel isn't [-peep-], they both have there high's and low's.
Now Cyrix...thats just......let's not go there..


-MeTaL RoCkEr

Eat, Sleep, Compute!
July 3, 2001 7:08:09 PM

for once I'll agree with you. Tom got ahead of himself. Its not a final product, he should have made the "The average performance loss of i845/PC133 vs. i850/PC800 is almost 21% and therefore unacceptable. 3D gamers should rather go for the more attractive Athlon-solutions unless they want to spend the big bucks for Pentium 4 plus RDRAM" statement more to the effect of it doesn't perform now, lets wait and hope they fix it.
the 845 with PC133 doesn't perform well, I didn't really expect it to, by all rights, it should starve the P4 of data.
however, if the 760 was released 6 months before it was finished, it would have similar results. The early test boards didn't perform much worse than the real thing.
the SSE2 comment, it WAS hand coded, by Intel programmers. you have a short memory or you just don't read much...

----------------------
Independant thought is good.
It won't hurt for long.
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July 3, 2001 8:26:40 PM

So why don't you go to Anandtech or [H]ard|OCP and voice your opinions, Fugger?

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My Athlon can beat your Ferrari off the line.
July 3, 2001 8:58:28 PM

With all those sour grapes fugger's eating, I'd think he needs to the latrine first. =8-)

I'm not in touch with my feeings, and I like it that way!
July 3, 2001 9:10:26 PM

I think Tom is right on the money, PC133 on a PIV is not a good combination, why even produce it? DDR is what Intel should have delivered since now DDR ram is the same price as PC133. Do you think the shipping version is magically going to perform like the RDRAM 850 boards? I doubt it, I just hope the DDR PIV boards perform around RDRAM speeds and is available this year. I currently have no reason to spend extra money for a poor combination and a strangled memory technology around the very advance PIV chip. I don't see Intel doing anyone any favors with this combo, hey maybe people using PC100 ram on their celeron business machines can save money by using the same ram on their brand new PIVs. This as far as I see it is not a good move by Intel, another long line of poor decisions.

Good job Tom, at least someone tells the king that he is naked.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 07/03/01 06:23 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 3, 2001 9:14:10 PM

eh.. I'm more interested in this:

Quote:
you can buy a P4 w/Geforce3 for under a grand now

got linkage?

Intel Components, AMD Components... all made in Taiwan!
a b à CPUs
July 3, 2001 9:16:10 PM

Oh, thanks Fugger for your UNbiased opinion on TOM!

Cast not thine pearls before the swine
July 3, 2001 9:28:47 PM

I think he means just those two parts for under a grand, not the whole system for under a grand.

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My Athlon can beat your Ferrari off the line.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
July 3, 2001 10:13:22 PM

Speaking of being full of [-peep-]...

How are you doing on that <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&..." target="_new">list of AMD incompatibilities</A> we were discussing a few weeks back? I still don't know what's taking so long. It should be easy to choose 10 out of the <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&..." target="_new">hundreds you claim to have personally experienced</A>.

<i>Cognite Tute</i>
(Think for Yourself)
July 3, 2001 10:48:49 PM

Quote:

On our i845 reference board, we are getting 15~25% increase across the board w/RDRAM over wilmette. no clue why Tom is slamming a "alpha" board must be sheer profesionalism. Tom doesnt want you to know that you can buy a P4 w/Geforce3 for under a grand now. seems $1000 is far beyond acceptable price for high end system that beats AMD in everything except office performance.

On all your tests it shows P4 beating the crap out of the AMD, except for office performance... now read what I just quoted and think to yourself "WTF would a gamer base his buying decision on AMD wining at office performance?"

Did you even READ the article or just look at the pics? I dont even think you read the benchmarks. Go back and READ THE FUC|<ING BENCHMARKS!!!!!!!




Quote:

WTG Tom, next time think about what your posting before you click the save button. but then again your a loser and we cannot expect anything non biased from you anyway.

WTG FUGGER, next time think about what your posting before you click the submit button, but then again your roam this board looking for some Intel buddies to go to bed with, so we didn't expect anything intelligent from you anyways...




Quote:

This is Toms usual style to bash Intel in every sentance. you have to get to page 3 before he even gets done ranting, what a [-peep-] loser. Nice to see that you fear SSE2 when you mention that "hand coded" part. it owns you.

Hey, I didn't know he wrote sentances..... do you actually think he's reading your rant? ROFL




Quote:

Too bad you lemmings live on what tom spews.

Seems to me that is what you are doing.... :wink:




Quote:

Good analogy, what was the first release date of 760MP? now go back 6 more months and imagine where the 760MP was at indevelopment. "white papers" or "actual product to be benched against seasoned technology?" truth is AMD 760MP was still on paper 6 months before first release date. now go take that piece of paper and bench it agaist cyrix or something intelligent.

Gee that's why we were seeing pics and getting a lot of info on it 6 months ago right?... Yes.. that must be.

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Grass is a beautiful weed
July 3, 2001 11:06:53 PM

I agree. The first time I heard that Intel was going to pair the P4 with PC133, I thought it was a bad joke. It didn't make any sense, not when the obvious price/performance configuration for Intel is a P4 with DDR.

It seems to me that this pairing will only be good for middle-of-the road to low end OEM systems, or for business machines. And since the majority of those are already running perfectly serviceable PII's, Celerons, or PIII's ... I don't think the demand is going to be great.

Whoever makes these decisions for Intel needs to get his glass navel cleaned. This is not 1995, and John Q. Public is not as ignorant as he/she/it (?) once was.

I also don't see any reason for FUGGER to blast Tom for providing information about hardware that he recently acquired. I can understand his bias toward the P4, and especially RDRAM. Despite the P4 winning the majority of the benchmarks, there is this:

My machine is fast, yes. I think it runs very well. But I made a jump of <i>700MHz</i> when I went to this configuration, and I can tell you straight out that the system just is not <i>that</i> much faster than my old 1GHz Athlon. Not 700MHz worth. That should have been like making the jump from 300Mhz to 1GHz ... and yes, there is a dramatic difference in speed when making an upgrade like that (also because of the faster FSB and memory.) But not this time around.

This system is stable. That's my catch-phrase these days ... gimme stability, or haul the damn thing out in the yard and shoot it! It runs cool, and takes everything I throw at it. But again, not 700Mhz faster.

People like Tom <i>should</i> expose these bad business decisions, not only because it's a good thing to have some kind of advance knowledge before a purchase ... but because the company is capable of producing superior products, at competitive prices ... and that's not what is happening at this time. And as long as no one calls them to the mat on this kind of thing, the practice may continue.

Toejam31

<font color=purple>My Rig:</font color=purple> <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847&lt;/A>
July 3, 2001 11:14:45 PM

"But I made a jump of 700MHz when I went to this configuration, and I can tell you straight out that the system just is not that much faster than my old 1GHz Athlon. Not 700MHz worth. That should have been like making the jump from 300Mhz to 1GHz"

300 MHz to 1 GHz is ~200% increase in clock speed
1GHz to 1.7 GHz is ~70% increase in clock speed
July 3, 2001 11:26:40 PM

Point taken, stoner. Bad illustration. Gimme a break, I'm tired, it was a long day! Don't pick your neighbor's nose just because he doesn't have a hanky. ;-)

But the fact of the matter is ... there was <b>not</b> a 70% increase in speed. And at the rated speed, that's what we P4 owners should be getting. Of course, I knew that in advance ... so I'm not really complaining. But that doesn't mean I'm thrilled about the idea.

Toejam31

P.S I'm going to bed now ... you guys fight out the details. The whole P4 topic is old and overused, like a 50-year old crack whore. (YAWN)

<font color=purple>My Rig:</font color=purple> <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847&lt;/A>
July 3, 2001 11:39:22 PM

"Oh, thanks Fugger for your UNbiased opinion on TOM!"

Hehe, NP!

Once again, Griz. I scrolled right on passed. not worth reading what I wrote twice because your so lame you cannot conceive a original thought yourself.
July 3, 2001 11:41:56 PM

"So why don't you go to Anandtech or [H]ard|OCP and voice your opinions, Fugger?"

I visit them, but I do not have the time to visit the forums. I waste enough time here already.
July 4, 2001 12:22:24 AM

Quote:
On our i845 reference board, we are getting 15~25% increase across the board w/RDRAM over wilmette.

What do you mean by this statement, as it is a bit confusing? Do you mean that the i845 board you have is 15-25% faster than current P4+RDRAM solutions? Becasue the way you worded it implies that you are using the i845 with RDRAM, which isn't possible... Please explain more clearly so I know what you mean. Thanks.

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
July 4, 2001 12:45:09 AM

Starting off with bashing blueman group is a sound/objective approach to reviewing any new Intel platform.

Ksoth, we have both i845 and i850 (82850 MCH based heavlily modified board), northwood on i845 w/ DDR performs better than i850 wilmette w/ RDRAM at same clock speeds. The performace increase is realative to the microarchtecture of the chip.

I will dig out the wilmette 478 ES@1.7Ghz, I want to compare the chip to what tom posted. we no longer use them since we have northwoods to fill the socket. I do see "Intel Confidential" on the chip. if that chip was supplied to tom from a OEM. that OEM could be in serious trouble. hence tom purposly declined to say who the motherboard was made by = OEM who supplied the chip.
July 4, 2001 12:51:37 AM

I'm amazed that made sense. Well i845 is design for Northwood P4 not the current P4. So intel might make the Northwood P4 more friendly for SDR, DDR, QDR SDRAM.

Nice Intel and AMD users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
July 4, 2001 1:56:07 AM

Folks -- FUGGER simply cannot handle anything negative about Intel.

In this case, Tom is simply telling the truth: P4 and PC133 do not make much sense together since P4 is designed for high memory bandwidth and you get only ~1 GB/sec bandwidth from PC133. That is all. In fact, Tom put in a nice plug for i845 and DDR at the end (if only Intel listening). Alas FUGGER is so biased that he cannot handle the truth, coming out six guns blazing without even carefully reading the article. Pretty pathetic.

**Spin all you want, but we the paying consumers will have the final word**
July 4, 2001 2:08:51 AM

What did you say FUGGER? I don't know. I didn't read it. Not worth the brain power. ROFLMAO

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Grass is a beautiful weed
July 4, 2001 3:28:29 AM

It all sounds like more

<b>Fabricated Fugger Facts (FFF for short)</b>

Next comes the tantrum and the name calling.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
July 4, 2001 3:30:10 AM

dude, do you even have the balls to question THG?

"AMD/VIA...you <i>still</i> are the weakest link, good bye!"
July 4, 2001 3:36:42 AM

Fugger,

I didn't see anyone "crowing" over the article. It was an alpha board, but the results show what Tom has speculated in the past about the P4 and SDRAM. Perhaps the finished product will be polished, but it will still be slower then the P4 with RDRAM.

Now, how it works with Northwood will be another story. We will have to wait and see Tom's (and others) review when Northwood is released.

As far as your "tests" go, you have proven yourself to be an unreliable source of information. I prefer to wait for the Professional reviews.

Interesting that you seem to be the only one who was either concerned or impressed by the article.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
July 4, 2001 4:28:13 AM

Come on fugger, Do u actually think those blue man group commercials are good and the best way for Intel to market their product? (never mind, who cares about stupid commercials)

As for the P4 bundled with SDRAM, Do u think it makes good sense? I sure as hell don’t and agree with Tom.

I like to read articles form people who have strong opinions. Doesn’t mean I all ways agree with em.

How much better will a p4+pc133 perform in 6 months? 2%? 5%tops.

Fugger, tell me why Intel is waiting so long to come out with a P4 with DDR ?

Thx & Cya


<font color=green>I may go to <font color=red>hell</font color=red> but at least I won't get lonely</font color=green>
July 4, 2001 5:42:09 AM

AmdMeltDown -- You are proven to have no credibility in this forum. I am not going to waste my time on you... Good bye!

**Spin all you want, but we the paying consumers will have the final word**
July 4, 2001 8:05:28 AM

Fugger, you come out with these rants but then won't discuss rationally. You have to go crazy on us...

Seriously, why should anyone take Intel seriously anymore? Look at the prices. Look at the processors that rely on software optimization that won't be in place until the processor is obsolete. Look at the trimmed down processors or recalled processors. There hasn't been a moment in the last year where I could get excited about them.

I would rather buy an older outdated PIII than a PIV. I keep saying that I hope the next platform will be better, I hope the next chipset will be better, but it's like we're frozen in time walking in place.

Stop ranting and raving about your benchmarks when you refuse to post them. Stop ranting about all the incompatablities when you refuse to post them. You can't complain about Tom's work unless you can prove yours. Just saying that he's wrong and that you're right doesn't work for any of us. If you've got the equipment and you've got the time to visit this site, then you must have some time to post all of your thorough benchmarking results.

Either sit down and have a decent two way conversation on this forum or shut the hell up.

<font color=red>Yeah, I took a crap on your lawn. Whatcha gonna do about it?</font color=red>
July 4, 2001 10:29:03 AM

I agree with you in some way
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
July 4, 2001 1:39:24 PM

"WTG Tom, next time think about what your posting before you click the save button. but then again your a loser and we cannot expect anything non biased from you anyway.

This is Toms usual style to bash Intel in every sentance. you have to get to page 3 before he even gets done ranting, what a [-peep-] loser. Nice to see that you fear SSE2 when you mention that "hand coded" part. it owns you."

WOW......its this kind of scintilating philosophy that will propel the pc industry into a whole new Golden Age. The problem with Intel lately is that it seems to employ logic rather similar to your own, Fugger. That is, not much.

Like most companies who have enjoyed an industry with little or no competition they are used to releasing products that suit themselves more than their potential market. I think Toms article may have been over the top, but it reflects the frustration many of us feel. We wait for intel to make a product that delivers the technology we want, and are pissed when they dont. Its that simple! that is, we hope that Intel produces a product that is outstanding in every way. When they do not, we go with the alternative. I buy AMD because it makes sense for me, not because im in love with the company. If Intel put out a chip that made sense for me today id be the first in line.

Plus, i dont like their attitude! maybe its an american thing, but i dont like feeling forced to use a product that costs me more than it should (read: Rdram). And, I dont like being deprived of an available technology simply because Intel doesnt want me to have it (read: ddr ram). Hey, Intel. WE are calling the shots!


ignore everything i say
July 4, 2001 2:15:32 PM

Ok, I see what you mean. But, Tom was comparing a Willamette with SDRAM to a Wilamette with RDRAM. That is why it performed so poorly and that is why he "slammed" it. I don't see why you were getting so upset, as the article clearly stated that a DDR solution would show the P4 in much better light. He was simply stating that the release of the SDR i845 platform before the DDR i845 platform is a very stragne move on Intel's part, and possibly only because of Intel's deal with RDRAM. Then again, maybe Intel wanted to wait until Northwood is released before their DDR solution comes out to have a better platform for it, showing it in a much better light compared to what's out there today. Who knows, and we probably won't know for certain for another few months.

"Trying is the first step towards failure."
July 4, 2001 2:26:06 PM

With Intel resources and money we shouldn't even be having this discussion because Intel should have a CPU that clearly is superior, no questions asked. Take a 1.4ghz T-Bird on a VIA chipset (not even the polimino) and a PIV at 1.4ghz on the latest Intel chipset both using PC133. Which one will win in most benchmarks? PIV wouldn't be able to beat the T-Bird in any as far as I see it, yet the T-Bird 1.4ghz is still cheaper in cost then the PIV. The motherboard will be cheaper as well for the T-Bird. The T-Bird would clearly win overall. So why in the world should anyone even consider such a combination with a PIV? In other words Intel is just doing a big dodo on themselves, AGAIN.
!