Can the banes be made useful?

[Moi]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

The Bane artifact weapons are rather useless artifacts noone likes to
see. I thought that maybe giving those artifacts some extra abilities
could make them, if still not great, at least worth using in the right
circumstances.

For example: Trollsbane could be made so that a Troll killed by it
doesn't leave a corpse. That would make Trollsbane still as
unimpressive as it's now against non-trolls (and thus not a really good
choice as main weapon), but it can be worth using Trollsbane to fight
pesky trolls.

What do you guys think?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Moi wrote:
>
> The Bane artifact weapons are rather useless artifacts noone likes to
> see. I thought that maybe giving those artifacts some extra abilities
> could make them, if still not great, at least worth using in the right
> circumstances.

In the latest verion they arrive fooproof when given
as gifts. That's a special ability.

> For example: Trollsbane could be made so that a Troll killed by it
> doesn't leave a corpse. That would make Trollsbane still as
> unimpressive as it's now against non-trolls (and thus not a really good
> choice as main weapon), but it can be worth using Trollsbane to fight
> pesky trolls.

No way. Troll dancing is a choice that I often take.
It builds experience points in the early/midgame

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:
> "Moi" <moisole@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1123114543.679903.259670
> @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
>
> > The Bane artifact weapons are rather useless artifacts noone likes to
> > see. I thought that maybe giving those artifacts some extra abilities
> > could make them, if still not great, at least worth using in the right
> > circumstances.

I think the problem with the bane-type weapons is that, even against
their target races, you're better off with one of the big artifacts
because of their large damage bonuses.

I think what needs to happen with the anti-class artifact weapons is
that they receive much larger damage bonuses *and* a special ability
against those monsters. No-regen for trolls is good. For the others:

Demonbane: Fear effect against non-prince demons outside of Genhennom.
Sunsword: Its permanent light source ability is good enough.
Giantslayer: Thrown boulders miss, protection from titan spells (maybe
also a "Fe-Fi-Fo-Fum" joke message?)
Orcrist: None, since you can make it at will.
Dragonbane: Half-damage from dragon breath, or immunity from special
breath effects (would make it worth dragging around for protection
against black dragons)
Ogresmasher: I'm drawing a blank on a good effect for this one; ogres
are most notable for being generic monsters in Nethack.
Werebane: Immunity from lycanthropy. (No additional damage bonus for
this, its being a silver saber is enough, thank you.)

However, I'd also say that the bane weapons should act like
Stormbringer against their foe monsters....

- John H.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Moi" <moisole@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1123114543.679903.259670
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

> The Bane artifact weapons are rather useless artifacts noone likes to
> see. I thought that maybe giving those artifacts some extra abilities
> could make them, if still not great, at least worth using in the right
> circumstances.
>
> For example: Trollsbane could be made so that a Troll killed by it
> doesn't leave a corpse. That would make Trollsbane still as
> unimpressive as it's now against non-trolls (and thus not a really good
> choice as main weapon), but it can be worth using Trollsbane to fight
> pesky trolls.
>
> What do you guys think?

I think the *Bane weapons should get something like a +dX to hit and +dY to
damage like other normal artifact weapons in addition to their bonus
against the creatures they hate.


--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

_.-In rec.games.roguelike.nethack, Moi wrote the following -._
> The Bane artifact weapons are rather useless artifacts noone likes to
> see.

Unless you are seeing magicbane. Which every wizard wants to see very
quickly.

--
.-')) fauxascii.com ('-. | It's a damn poor mind that
' ..- .:" ) ( ":. -.. ' | can only think of one way to
((,,_;'.;' UIN=66618055 ';. ';_,,)) | spell a word.
((_.YIM=Faux_Pseudo :._)) | - Andrew Jackson

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Martin Read wrote:
> "John H." <JohnWH@gmail.com> wrote:
> >However, I'd also say that the bane weapons should act like
> >Stormbringer against their foe monsters....
>
> Big fat hairy deal. Most things for which there is a slayer weapon are
> automatically hostile anyway.

There are lots of things that can happen in the game that are not
common, yet are there anyway because it's logical.

But specifically, I was thinking about problems with hitting pets, and
angering peaceful demon princes. So, nyaah.

- John H.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Moi wrote:
> The Bane artifact weapons are rather useless artifacts noone likes to
> see.

YANI: A new artifact weapon named "Banebane". Does a little extra
damage to monsters, but its main gimmick is that if you wield it while
picking up any artifact weapon, the other artifact is instantly removed
from the dungeon, and counted in the code as "never been generated"
(thus restoring your chances of successfully wishing for a *real*
artifact).
Of course, since Banebane can't be randomly generated and you have to
wish for it in the first place, the whole excercise is kind of
oxymoronic anyway. Plus, there's always the chance you'll accidentally
vape excalibur or frostbrand...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Doug Freyburger wrote:
> Moi wrote:
> > For example: Trollsbane could be made so that a Troll killed by it
> > doesn't leave a corpse.
> No way. Troll dancing is a choice that I often take.
> It builds experience points in the early/midgame

And do you generally wait until you've got trollsbane before you do
your troll dancing? I doubt it. This YANI wouldn't remove troll-tango
from the game, you'd just have to use some other weapon to do it with.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

dogsc...@eudoramail.com wrote:
> Moi wrote:
> > The Bane artifact weapons are rather useless artifacts noone likes to
> > see.
>
> YANI: A new artifact weapon named "Banebane". Does a little extra
> damage to monsters,

EDIT: It only does extra damage to monsters not already covered by
monster-specific weapons (ie it's not much good against trolls, orcs,
dragons, weres, ogres etc)

Perhaps it could even actively heal those monsters >=-)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1123121131.395112.117440@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Moi wrote:
>>
>> The Bane artifact weapons are rather useless artifacts noone likes to
>> see. I thought that maybe giving those artifacts some extra abilities
>> could make them, if still not great, at least worth using in the right
>> circumstances.
>
> In the latest verion they arrive fooproof when given
> as gifts. That's a special ability.

All gifted artifact weapons arrive fooproof.



--
~ Cyde Weys ~

Mana du vortes, mana du vortes
Aeria gloris, aeria gloris

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
> > Moi wrote:
>
> >> The Bane artifact weapons are rather useless artifacts noone likes to
> >> see. I thought that maybe giving those artifacts some extra abilities
> >> could make them, if still not great, at least worth using in the right
> >> circumstances.
>
> > In the latest verion they arrive fooproof when given
> > as gifts. That's a special ability.
>
> All gifted artifact weapons arrive fooproof.

Implying that there are assorted ways for them to arrive
not fooproof, check.

Evil idea - Sting gives awareness of all orcs on your level.
Giving the other Banes that power for their monster class
would be a fun power. I wonder if the existing code would
be easy to generalize that way. Thinking back to what I've
read in the sources I don't think so.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"John H." <JohnWH@gmail.com> wrote:
>However, I'd also say that the bane weapons should act like
>Stormbringer against their foe monsters....

Big fat hairy deal. Most things for which there is a slayer weapon are
automatically hostile anyway.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
illusion/kinetics controlling is love

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Martin Read wrote:
> "John H." <JohnWH@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>However, I'd also say that the bane weapons should act like
>>Stormbringer against their foe monsters....
>
>
> Big fat hairy deal. Most things for which there is a slayer weapon are
> automatically hostile anyway

Since the worst enemies are Demons, big and small, the +7 blessed
rustproof Demonbane is a mighty useful weapon already, it does double
damage against all demons and as a long sword is a good general-purpose
weapon. It ranks third in the "Magicbane and artifact selection
strategy..." spoiler art2-342.txt.

It is a decent weapon and does not need enhancing further.

What IS needed is to up the weapon decision-making abilities of pets so
that animal lovers can make full use of them. But that idea doesn't seem
to have got any support from ther important people...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Faux_Pseudo wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > Evil idea - Sting gives awareness of all orcs on your level.
> > Giving the other Banes that power for their monster class
> > would be a fun power. I wonder if the existing code would
> > be easy to generalize that way. Thinking back to what I've
> > read in the sources I don't think so.
>
> Just in case you get anyideas I would make sure that MagicBane doesn't
> get that power. Doing so would make it one of the most powerful items
> in the game.

That puts my evil idea to shame, wow. Showing the location of
every spellcaster on the level would be very unbalancing.

I've looked through the code some and it references monsters
by class not by spellcasting ability. References to Orcs and
Sting could be converted to tables lookups by class. Lots of
work.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Nan Wang wrote:
> Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@removethisword.home.nl> wrote:
> > Nan Wang wrote:
>
> > > I think Trollbane/Ogresmasher/Giantslayer should not count toward the
> > > artifact total.
>
> > But that's the whole reason for their existance!
>
> But their existence predate the artifact limit.
>
> Yeah I know you were just being sarcastic.

I don't think it's sarcastic. It's a question of balance
and uncertainty. Getting a good artifact weapon is NOT
guaranteed and it can take a lot of work. I'm running a
wizard who went through tens of thousands of turns altar
camping beofr efinally getting Stormy. One bane after
another showed up. Of course once I stopped trying the
evil RNG gave me Fire Brand when I did a sacrafice just
to see if it was safe to pray, sigh.

It's also the way the DevTeam works. If something is
frustrating and it makes the game more of a challenge,
they build it in. This type of feature is why Nethack
is never extremely popular, but it's also why people
keep coming back even after a decade.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Tom Goodman wrote:
> Since the worst enemies are Demons, big and small, the +7 blessed
> rustproof Demonbane is a mighty useful weapon already, it does double
> damage against all demons and as a long sword is a good general-purpose
> weapon. It ranks third in the "Magicbane and artifact selection
> strategy..." spoiler art2-342.txt.

I dispute this.

I'd say the worse enemies are the ones that have killed the most
players. Checking the fatality list over at alt.org, it's obvious that
demons (other than water demons), are practically harmless. What would
really be useful, perhaps, would be Antbane....

Kidding aside, by the time you reach demons other than *cubi and water
demons, you probably already have a much better artifact weapon than
Demonbane. Demonbane's damage bonus is x2 weapon damage (longsword:
d8/d12) against demons. Excalibur's is +10 to damage, always better
against small and medium foes, and usually better against large ones.
But an _ordinary_ silver saber does an extra d20 damage to demons, and
if that saber happened to be Grayswandir....

My point wasn't that Demonbane (and other banes, too) should be better
in every situation than Excalibur. But I do think that the banes,
because they are specialist weapons, should each at least be tops in
their field if they don't have some other power to make up for it.



> What IS needed is to up the weapon decision-making abilities of pets so
> that animal lovers can make full use of them. But that idea doesn't seem
> to have got any support from ther important people...

It's not always easy for players to figure out the best weapon to use,
why should pets be any different?

- John H.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Moi <moisole@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The Bane artifact weapons are rather useless artifacts noone likes to
> see. I thought that maybe giving those artifacts some extra abilities
> could make them, if still not great, at least worth using in the right
> circumstances.

I think Trollbane/Ogresmasher/Giantslayer should not count toward the
artifact total.

Or..., taking an idea from Baulder's Gate 2, make a generic flail artifact,
and if you get one of the above, it gains a new ability against trolls/giants/
ogres. Finally, another decent blunt artifact weapon.

 

[Moi]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

John H wrote in the dust, with a yellowish-brown gem:

> My point wasn't that Demonbane (and other banes, too) should be better
> in every situation than Excalibur. But I do think that the banes,
> because they are specialist weapons, should each at least be tops in
> their field if they don't have some other power to make up for it.

Exactly, that was my idea, Trollsbane is suposed to be a troll's bane,
and that's not the case really. Same with other similar artifacts. His
[John H's]ideas about the other artifacts of this class are nice, too.
(Yeah, ogres is hard).

Although some of those ideas can be said to be a bit on the powerful
side (I'm not saying that, but I admit it could), I don't thing they
massively unbalance the game, since the player would have to first get
that artifact, and then carry it all the way for a possible encounter
with the artifact's speciality critter.

 

[JohnS]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"John H." <JohnWH@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123188896.081275.239230@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Tom Goodman wrote:
>> What IS needed is to up the weapon decision-making abilities of pets so
>> that animal lovers can make full use of them. But that idea doesn't seem
>> to have got any support from ther important people...
>
> It's not always easy for players to figure out the best weapon to use,
> why should pets be any different?

So that players can learn from them?
We already have the precedent of B/U/C status detection, why not intelligent
weapon choices?

--johns

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

_.-In rec.games.roguelike.nethack, Doug Freyburger wrote the following -._
> Evil idea - Sting gives awareness of all orcs on your level.
> Giving the other Banes that power for their monster class
> would be a fun power. I wonder if the existing code would
> be easy to generalize that way. Thinking back to what I've
> read in the sources I don't think so.

Just in case you get anyideas I would make sure that MagicBane doesn't
get that power. Doing so would make it one of the most powerful items
in the game.

--
.-')) fauxascii.com ('-. | It's a damn poor mind that
' ..- .:" ) ( ":. -.. ' | can only think of one way to
((,,_;'.;' UIN=66618055 ';. ';_,,)) | spell a word.
((_.YIM=Faux_Pseudo :._)) | - Andrew Jackson

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Nan Wang wrote:

> I think Trollbane/Ogresmasher/Giantslayer should not count toward the
> artifact total.

But that's the whole reason for their existance!

Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Boudewijn Waijers <kroisos@removethisword.home.nl> wrote:
> Nan Wang wrote:

> > I think Trollbane/Ogresmasher/Giantslayer should not count toward the
> > artifact total.

> But that's the whole reason for their existance!

But their existence predate the artifact limit.

Yeah I know you were just being sarcastic.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

JohnS wrote:
> "John H." <JohnWH@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1123188896.081275.239230@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > It's not always easy for players to figure out the best weapon to use,
> > why should pets be any different?
>
> So that players can learn from them?
> We already have the precedent of B/U/C status detection, why not intelligent
> weapon choices?

Oh come on now... if your pets were really all that smart, they
wouldn't be following us players.

- John "!S" H.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Andrew Kerr wrote:
> Demonbane doubles enchantment damage (and strength damage?) too. From
> art2-343.txt, at +7 it does greater average damage to demons than
> anything bar Frost Brand (equal) and Grayswandir. FB is unaligned
> whereas GS and DB are Lawful, so for non lawful characters with lots of
> enchant weapon scrolls and ignoring weapon skills GS>FB>DB for demon
> killing.

Hmmm, I'd forgotten about doubled enchantment, good point. Mjollnir is
also close, it seems.


> Perhaps Demonbane should be unaligned?

Demonbane is probably lawful because Genhennom, home of the demon
princes, is supposed to be a chaotic area.

- John H.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1123188896.081275.239230@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, John
H. says...
> ...
> Kidding aside, by the time you reach demons other than *cubi and water
> demons, you probably already have a much better artifact weapon than
> Demonbane. Demonbane's damage bonus is x2 weapon damage (longsword:
> d8/d12) against demons. Excalibur's is +10 to damage, always better
> against small and medium foes, and usually better against large ones.
> But an _ordinary_ silver saber does an extra d20 damage to demons, and
> if that saber happened to be Grayswandir....
> ...
> - John H.

Demonbane doubles enchantment damage (and strength damage?) too. From
art2-343.txt, at +7 it does greater average damage to demons than
anything bar Frost Brand (equal) and Grayswandir. FB is unaligned
whereas GS and DB are Lawful, so for non lawful characters with lots of
enchant weapon scrolls and ignoring weapon skills GS>FB>DB for demon
killing.

Perhaps Demonbane should be unaligned?