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Best weapon for Valkyries?

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Anonymous
August 15, 2005 4:16:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Hi,

I'm running a great Valkyrie game (by my standards at least) - I
cleared out Mine's End and Sokoban without any problem (except some
irritating teleportitis, which I got eating a tengu corpse - I know, I
know, tinning kit, but I didn't have one), had some very productive
alchemy and blessing sessions, and, at an altar on DL 2, got Mjollnir
very early on, and have advanced to Expert level in hammer and dagger.
My issue is this: I just sacrificed again and was given Grayswandir,
which seems to be an amazing weapon, but checking the weapons spoilers
I see that I can only get to basic in silver saber. Is it worth it to
enchant Grayswandir to +7 or should I stick with Mjollnir, enchant it
instead and wait for gauntlets of power?

- Drew

More about : weapon valkyries

Anonymous
August 15, 2005 5:29:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Got an extra silver saber? Even if you decide to wield Mojo, I
reccomend you use it as a second weapon since Grayswandir and other
silver sabers will cut through demons like a hot knife through butter
:-)
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 5:42:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Drew Levitt wrote:
> I'm running a great Valkyrie game (by my standards at least) - I
> cleared out Mine's End and Sokoban without any problem (except some
> irritating teleportitis, which I got eating a tengu corpse - I know, I
> know, tinning kit, but I didn't have one), had some very productive
> alchemy and blessing sessions, and, at an altar on DL 2, got Mjollnir
> very early on, and have advanced to Expert level in hammer and dagger.

That *is* nice, Mjollnir's a cool weapon.


> My issue is this: I just sacrificed again and was given Grayswandir,
> which seems to be an amazing weapon, but checking the weapons spoilers
> I see that I can only get to basic in silver saber. Is it worth it to
> enchant Grayswandir to +7 or should I stick with Mjollnir, enchant it
> instead and wait for gauntlets of power?

Both weapons are great to use with or without Gauntler of Power. If
your strength is already maxed out, if I'm not mistaken, the only
benefit of Gauntlets of Power is that Valks can throw Mjollnir and
usually have it return.

The primary advantage of Greyswandir is that it's a silver saber (so it
does a good amount of extra damage to demons) and is the only weapon
with universal double damage -- base weapon damage (not the d20 extra
for the silver-against-demon bonus) and the damage due to enchantment
are both doubled without exception.

The primary advantages of Mjollnir is that hammers have decent damage
themselves, the throwing thing, and it does +d24 damage to
non-shock-resistant foes. Few monsters are shock resistant, so this is
rather nice to have, but there *are* some monsters that this damage
doesn't apply to.

Summary:
Grayswandir gets x2 damage, plus d20 only against demons.
Mjollnir gets +d24 damage against all non-shock-resistant foes, plus
that throwing thing.

Further, you already have hammer at expert, but can't seem to get
Greyswandir above Basic.

Sounds to me like the big M is the best bet. It's keeping in
character, too....

- John H.
Related resources
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 11:25:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Drew Levitt wrote:
>
> ... got Mjollnir
> very early on, and have advanced to Expert level in hammer and dagger.
> My issue is this: I just sacrificed again and was given Grayswandir,
> which seems to be an amazing weapon, but checking the weapons spoilers
> I see that I can only get to basic in silver saber. Is it worth it to
> enchant Grayswandir to +7 or should I stick with Mjollnir, enchant it
> instead and wait for gauntlets of power?

Luck=13 and enchanted to +7 means your wielded weapon
will always hit. That overwhelms the difference
between Expert and Basic.

Where Expert vs Basic makes a huge difference is
missiles. Expert will throw as many as 3 daggers
or darts or whatever compared to Basic only
throwing 1. For classes that can get to Expert
in dagger doing so is well worth it.

With [oP, Mojo is a vicious machine gun at range 2
and up, so don't discard it. Use it at range 2+,
Grayswandir and a non-artifact at range 1.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 12:38:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Doug Freyburger wrote:
> Luck=13 and enchanted to +7 means your wielded weapon
> will always hit. That overwhelms the difference
> between Expert and Basic.

Sweet! This definitely changes the equation, as there seems to be no
doubt that the +7 Grayswandir can do more damage than the +7 Mjollnir,
at least to demons.

> Where Expert vs Basic makes a huge difference is
> missiles. Expert will throw as many as 3 daggers
> or darts or whatever compared to Basic only
> throwing 1. For classes that can get to Expert
> in dagger doing so is well worth it.

I'd tended to neglect ranged weapons/throwing weapons before I started
reading rgrn, but I have to say that Expert in dagger + stack of 10 or
so daggers (now accumulating elven daggers) is a pretty good
combination.

> With [oP, Mojo is a vicious machine gun at range 2
> and up, so don't discard it. Use it at range 2+,
> Grayswandir and a non-artifact at range 1.

Sounds like a good strategy, but can't you only throw Mjollnir when
it's your wielded weapon? And wouldn't that mean that you have to be
constantly switching between weapons setups? Which takes a turn, if
I'm not mistaken? How do you deal with this?
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 12:55:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Drew Levitt wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > Luck=13 and enchanted to +7 means your wielded weapon
> > will always hit. That overwhelms the difference
> > between Expert and Basic.

Does luck=13 and enchanted to +7 mean always hits in
all circumstances? I'm not positive. I can't recall
a time when a character with that missed any monster
but maybe so very powerfull monsters ...

> > With [oP, Mojo is a vicious machine gun at range 2
> > and up, so don't discard it. Use it at range 2+,
> > Grayswandir and a non-artifact at range 1.

> Sounds like a good strategy, but can't you only throw Mjollnir when
> it's your wielded weapon? And wouldn't that mean that you have to be
> constantly switching between weapons setups? Which takes a turn, if
> I'm not mistaken? How do you deal with this?

Monsters switch wielded weapons all the time, so the
DevTeam thinks it is good enough strategy to have
monsters do it.

With a monster powerfull enough that you don't want
to waste a single move, switch to your melee weapons
early and fire daggers out of your quiver and/or zap
your reserve attack wands and/or use your cone of cold
spell.

When you are on a special level with a named demon,
it is probably a good strategy to plan on using that
strategy anyways. Named demons teleport directly to
you most of the time so remote is not an option.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 1:04:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Doug Freyburger wrote:
> Drew Levitt wrote:
> > Doug Freyburger wrote:
> >
> > > Luck=13 and enchanted to +7 means your wielded weapon
> > > will always hit. That overwhelms the difference
> > > between Expert and Basic.
>
> Does luck=13 and enchanted to +7 mean always hits in
> all circumstances? I'm not positive. I can't recall
> a time when a character with that missed any monster
> but maybe so very powerfull monsters ...

How about when wielding 2 weapons? Even at skilled level you still get
-5 to hit; does high weapon enchantment and luck overcome that?

> > Sounds like a good strategy, but can't you only throw Mjollnir when
> > it's your wielded weapon? And wouldn't that mean that you have to be
> > constantly switching between weapons setups? Which takes a turn, if
> > I'm not mistaken? How do you deal with this?
>
> Monsters switch wielded weapons all the time, so the
> DevTeam thinks it is good enough strategy to have
> monsters do it.
>
> With a monster powerfull enough that you don't want
> to waste a single move, switch to your melee weapons
> early and fire daggers out of your quiver and/or zap
> your reserve attack wands and/or use your cone of cold
> spell.
>
> When you are on a special level with a named demon,
> it is probably a good strategy to plan on using that
> strategy anyways. Named demons teleport directly to
> you most of the time so remote is not an option.

Good point.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 1:10:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

John H. wrote:
> Drew Levitt wrote:
>
> > My issue is this: I just sacrificed again and was given Grayswandir,
> > which seems to be an amazing weapon, but checking the weapons spoilers
> > I see that I can only get to basic in silver saber. Is it worth it to
> > enchant Grayswandir to +7 or should I stick with Mjollnir, enchant it
> > instead and wait for gauntlets of power?
[SNIP]
> Summary:
> Grayswandir gets x2 damage, plus d20 only against demons.
> Mjollnir gets +d24 damage against all non-shock-resistant foes, plus
> that throwing thing.
>
> Further, you already have hammer at expert, but can't seem to get
> Greyswandir above Basic.
>
> Sounds to me like the big M is the best bet. It's keeping in
> character, too....

Personally, I'd use GS just because it seems really cool and I never
get it; valks get mojo all the time.

But from what you said, it sounds like Grayswandir is the best bet:
Mojo 1d4+16 / 1d4+15 (1d4+1/1d4 base, +7 enchant, +2 expert, +6
strength)
GS: 2d8+26 / 2d8+26 (1d8/1d8 base, +7 enchant, +6 strength, all
doubled)
(Damage versus small/large creatures)

Mojo also does 1d24 lightning damage against non-shock-resistant
Grayswandir also does 1d20 (not doubled) against silver-haters.

So that's 35/35 average for GS, 31/30 for Mojo (including lightning
damage, 18.5/17.5 against shock resistant foes).
And GS does an extra 10.5 on average against silver-hating creatures
(most demons/vampires/werecreatures/etc).

Now if I'm wrong about strength bonuses being doubled, knock 6 off both
numbers for GS: 29/29 vs 31/30, but GS has the silver bonus which more
than compensates for 1-2 points of damage IMO.

Also, Mojo has the unfortunate side effect of occasionally blowing up
rings/wands/potions/etc carried by your foes; you can't collect nearly
the same goodies that you can with Grayswandir.

(And all of this is assuming you're not, umm, "brave" enough to go
around throwing Mjollnir and risk missing the catch and blowing up your
ring of levitation while you're hovering over the lava or whatever
other insidious situation the RNG dreams up.)
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 1:18:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Drew Levitt wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> > > > Luck=13 and enchanted to +7 means your wielded weapon
> > > > will always hit. That overwhelms the difference
> > > > between Expert and Basic.
>
> > Does luck=13 and enchanted to +7 mean always hits in
> > all circumstances? I'm not positive. I can't recall
> > a time when a character with that missed any monster
> > but maybe so very powerfull monsters ...
>
> How about when wielding 2 weapons? Even at skilled level you still get
> -5 to hit; does high weapon enchantment and luck overcome that?

I alays advance the weapon classes individually in advance
before I start to #twoweapon, so I don't know how levels
other than max effect the situation.

Artifacts tend to be +2 or +5 to hit and that overcomes
the -5 to hit twoweapon issue. Hits are chances in 20.
13-luck and 7-enchantment are 20 right there.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 5:00:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Drew Levitt wrote:

> My issue is this: I just sacrificed again and was given Grayswandir,
> which seems to be an amazing weapon, but checking the weapons spoilers
> I see that I can only get to basic in silver saber. Is it worth it to
> enchant Grayswandir to +7 or should I stick with Mjollnir, enchant it
> instead and wait for gauntlets of power?

The artifacts spoiler lists how the various artifacts compare when used
by different classes, and at +7 enchantment, taking into account the
maximum skill for that class.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 5:31:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1124090171.295976.146900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, Drew
Levitt says...
> Is it worth it to
> enchant Grayswandir to +7 or should I stick with Mjollnir, enchant it
> instead and wait for gauntlets of power?
>
> - Drew
>
>

Check out art2-343.txt

I'd recommend sticking with Mojo until Gehennom, then switching to GS
and (assuming Gauntlets of Power) use Mojo as your ranged weapon. You'll
probably have enough ?oEW by then to enchant both to +7.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 6:14:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Doug Freyburger wrote:
> I alays advance the weapon classes individually in advance
> before I start to #twoweapon, so I don't know how levels
> other than max effect the situation.

>From weap-343.txt, in the exhaustive section on calculating the chance
to hit:
+ A penalty if using two weapons and/or riding while poorly skilled;
see 2-WEAP +HIT and RIDING +HIT in the weapon skills table above.
(For the former purpose, your skill is considered to be the lower
of
your actual two-weapon skill and your skill in your primary
weapon.)

> Artifacts tend to be +2 or +5 to hit and that overcomes
> the -5 to hit twoweapon issue. Hits are chances in 20.
> 13-luck and 7-enchantment are 20 right there.

This seems to be correct, as far as I can tell. However, note that you
must also add the monster's AC, your experience level, your DEX bonus,
etc. etc. Your XL is almost always going to cancel out or exceed the
monster's AC though.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 10:08:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Don't forget the golden rule of combat: Never expose your body to the
opponent if you can avoid it. Hence use ranged weapons if available and
effective, in preference to close combat. Keep GS plus a second sabre if
available for close combat if unavoidable. A stack of +7 blessed
fooproof elven daggers is deadly used by a skilled Valkyrie.

And daggers have the added bonus that one scroll can enchant many items.
Lets say you wield 30 elven daggers at +0. Read a blessed scroll of
enchant weapon and you could get 30 +3 daggers, that is a hit point
resource increment of 90 !
Read the same scroll whilst wielding a long sword at +0 and you get
possibly 3 HPRIs. Even with only 10 elven daggers you could get 30
HPRIs, 27 better than with the sword.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 8:38:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 8/15/05 1:08 PM, Tom Goodman wrote:
> And daggers have the added bonus that one scroll can enchant many items.
> Lets say you wield 30 elven daggers at +0. Read a blessed scroll of
> enchant weapon and you could get 30 +3 daggers, that is a hit point
> resource increment of 90 !
> Read the same scroll whilst wielding a long sword at +0 and you get
> possibly 3 HPRIs. Even with only 10 elven daggers you could get 30
> HPRIs, 27 better than with the sword.

Uh, *really* skewed logic here. It ignores the reusability of weapons,
and the limitation of how many weapons can be used at a time.

The long sword enchanted to +3 can inflict an extra 3 hp of damage per
melee round. Wield one of the daggers (or the stack; it doesn't matter)
and you'll get the same extra 3 hp extra damage. (Chance to hit is
affected in the same way.)

Of course, you can *throw* your daggers, up to 4 at a time based on
skill level, so the extra damage inflicted per round by daggers can
range from 3-12, as opposed to the 3 for the sword (some classes can
also #twoweapon, but we're talking about the additional damage given
from a single ?oEW here), but that's as great as the advantage gets. Of
course, at some point, you have to *retrieve* your thrown daggers, as
opposed to the sword still in your hand; a factor that may come into
play when fighting hordes (Castle, Ludios, Bigroom).

Simply adding together the individual points of enchantment in a stack
creates a meaningless sum.

--
Kevin Wayne

"There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
--Mark Twain
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 12:15:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Andrew Kerr wrote:
>
> Check out art2-343.txt
>
> I'd recommend sticking with Mojo until Gehennom, then switching to GS
> and (assuming Gauntlets of Power) use Mojo as your ranged weapon. You'll
> probably have enough ?oEW by then to enchant both to +7.

Okay, having checked out art2-343.txt I note that it recommends either
Mjollnir or Frost Brand for a later-game Valkyrie. Let's throw one
more thing in the mix: last night I walked into an ordinary dungeon
room and found a cave spider hiding beneath a long sword named Frost
Brand. The sword is currently chilling in my blessed BoH, along with
Sunsword and Grayswandir (I think I have the artifacts situation under
control, except perhaps for Magicbane). Of course, I can advance long
sword to Expert, so does this change anything? What now would you
recommend?

- Drew
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 4:06:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Drew Levitt wrote:
> Andrew Kerr wrote:
>
> > Check out art2-343.txt
>
> > I'd recommend sticking with Mojo until Gehennom, then switching to GS
> > and (assuming Gauntlets of Power) use Mojo as your ranged weapon. You'll
> > probably have enough ?oEW by then to enchant both to +7.
>
> Okay, having checked out art2-343.txt I note that it recommends either
> Mjollnir or Frost Brand for a later-game Valkyrie. Let's throw one
> more thing in the mix: last night I walked into an ordinary dungeon
> room and found a cave spider hiding beneath a long sword named Frost
> Brand. The sword is currently chilling in my blessed BoH, along with
> Sunsword and Grayswandir (I think I have the artifacts situation under
> control, except perhaps for Magicbane). Of course, I can advance long
> sword to Expert, so does this change anything? What now would you
> recommend?

Both Mjollnir and Frost Brand can destroy items carried by
the monster you hit. Grayswandir does not do that. None
effect death-drop items that are created at the time a
monster dies. As a result I prefer Grayswandir over Frost
Brand when available starting as soon as luck can be
maxed out at 13 to make skill issues less important.

Frost Brand does cold damage, Mjollnir does shock damage.
More deeper monsters are shock resistant that cold
resistant. As a reult I prefer Frost Brand over Mjollnir
starting about the Castle or VotD.

A Valk can end up Expert in dagger, hammer and long sword,
plus Basic in saber.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 11:01:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1124205334.712084.61020@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Drew Levitt
says...

> Okay, having checked out art2-343.txt I note that it recommends either
> Mjollnir or Frost Brand for a later-game Valkyrie. Let's throw one
> more thing in the mix: last night I walked into an ordinary dungeon
> room and found a cave spider hiding beneath a long sword named Frost
> Brand. The sword is currently chilling in my blessed BoH, along with
> Sunsword and Grayswandir (I think I have the artifacts situation under
> control, except perhaps for Magicbane). Of course, I can advance long
> sword to Expert, so does this change anything? What now would you
> recommend?
>
> - Drew
>
>
If you're already expert in hammer, why switch to long sword? Keep it for when
you accidentally throw Mojo into lava ;) 
!