Best weapon for Valkyries?

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Hi,

I'm running a great Valkyrie game (by my standards at least) - I
cleared out Mine's End and Sokoban without any problem (except some
irritating teleportitis, which I got eating a tengu corpse - I know, I
know, tinning kit, but I didn't have one), had some very productive
alchemy and blessing sessions, and, at an altar on DL 2, got Mjollnir
very early on, and have advanced to Expert level in hammer and dagger.
My issue is this: I just sacrificed again and was given Grayswandir,
which seems to be an amazing weapon, but checking the weapons spoilers
I see that I can only get to basic in silver saber. Is it worth it to
enchant Grayswandir to +7 or should I stick with Mjollnir, enchant it
instead and wait for gauntlets of power?

- Drew
16 answers Last reply
More about best weapon valkyries
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Got an extra silver saber? Even if you decide to wield Mojo, I
    reccomend you use it as a second weapon since Grayswandir and other
    silver sabers will cut through demons like a hot knife through butter
    :-)
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Drew Levitt wrote:
    > I'm running a great Valkyrie game (by my standards at least) - I
    > cleared out Mine's End and Sokoban without any problem (except some
    > irritating teleportitis, which I got eating a tengu corpse - I know, I
    > know, tinning kit, but I didn't have one), had some very productive
    > alchemy and blessing sessions, and, at an altar on DL 2, got Mjollnir
    > very early on, and have advanced to Expert level in hammer and dagger.

    That *is* nice, Mjollnir's a cool weapon.


    > My issue is this: I just sacrificed again and was given Grayswandir,
    > which seems to be an amazing weapon, but checking the weapons spoilers
    > I see that I can only get to basic in silver saber. Is it worth it to
    > enchant Grayswandir to +7 or should I stick with Mjollnir, enchant it
    > instead and wait for gauntlets of power?

    Both weapons are great to use with or without Gauntler of Power. If
    your strength is already maxed out, if I'm not mistaken, the only
    benefit of Gauntlets of Power is that Valks can throw Mjollnir and
    usually have it return.

    The primary advantage of Greyswandir is that it's a silver saber (so it
    does a good amount of extra damage to demons) and is the only weapon
    with universal double damage -- base weapon damage (not the d20 extra
    for the silver-against-demon bonus) and the damage due to enchantment
    are both doubled without exception.

    The primary advantages of Mjollnir is that hammers have decent damage
    themselves, the throwing thing, and it does +d24 damage to
    non-shock-resistant foes. Few monsters are shock resistant, so this is
    rather nice to have, but there *are* some monsters that this damage
    doesn't apply to.

    Summary:
    Grayswandir gets x2 damage, plus d20 only against demons.
    Mjollnir gets +d24 damage against all non-shock-resistant foes, plus
    that throwing thing.

    Further, you already have hammer at expert, but can't seem to get
    Greyswandir above Basic.

    Sounds to me like the big M is the best bet. It's keeping in
    character, too....

    - John H.
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Drew Levitt wrote:
    >
    > ... got Mjollnir
    > very early on, and have advanced to Expert level in hammer and dagger.
    > My issue is this: I just sacrificed again and was given Grayswandir,
    > which seems to be an amazing weapon, but checking the weapons spoilers
    > I see that I can only get to basic in silver saber. Is it worth it to
    > enchant Grayswandir to +7 or should I stick with Mjollnir, enchant it
    > instead and wait for gauntlets of power?

    Luck=13 and enchanted to +7 means your wielded weapon
    will always hit. That overwhelms the difference
    between Expert and Basic.

    Where Expert vs Basic makes a huge difference is
    missiles. Expert will throw as many as 3 daggers
    or darts or whatever compared to Basic only
    throwing 1. For classes that can get to Expert
    in dagger doing so is well worth it.

    With [oP, Mojo is a vicious machine gun at range 2
    and up, so don't discard it. Use it at range 2+,
    Grayswandir and a non-artifact at range 1.
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Doug Freyburger wrote:
    > Luck=13 and enchanted to +7 means your wielded weapon
    > will always hit. That overwhelms the difference
    > between Expert and Basic.

    Sweet! This definitely changes the equation, as there seems to be no
    doubt that the +7 Grayswandir can do more damage than the +7 Mjollnir,
    at least to demons.

    > Where Expert vs Basic makes a huge difference is
    > missiles. Expert will throw as many as 3 daggers
    > or darts or whatever compared to Basic only
    > throwing 1. For classes that can get to Expert
    > in dagger doing so is well worth it.

    I'd tended to neglect ranged weapons/throwing weapons before I started
    reading rgrn, but I have to say that Expert in dagger + stack of 10 or
    so daggers (now accumulating elven daggers) is a pretty good
    combination.

    > With [oP, Mojo is a vicious machine gun at range 2
    > and up, so don't discard it. Use it at range 2+,
    > Grayswandir and a non-artifact at range 1.

    Sounds like a good strategy, but can't you only throw Mjollnir when
    it's your wielded weapon? And wouldn't that mean that you have to be
    constantly switching between weapons setups? Which takes a turn, if
    I'm not mistaken? How do you deal with this?
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Drew Levitt wrote:
    > Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >
    > > Luck=13 and enchanted to +7 means your wielded weapon
    > > will always hit. That overwhelms the difference
    > > between Expert and Basic.

    Does luck=13 and enchanted to +7 mean always hits in
    all circumstances? I'm not positive. I can't recall
    a time when a character with that missed any monster
    but maybe so very powerfull monsters ...

    > > With [oP, Mojo is a vicious machine gun at range 2
    > > and up, so don't discard it. Use it at range 2+,
    > > Grayswandir and a non-artifact at range 1.

    > Sounds like a good strategy, but can't you only throw Mjollnir when
    > it's your wielded weapon? And wouldn't that mean that you have to be
    > constantly switching between weapons setups? Which takes a turn, if
    > I'm not mistaken? How do you deal with this?

    Monsters switch wielded weapons all the time, so the
    DevTeam thinks it is good enough strategy to have
    monsters do it.

    With a monster powerfull enough that you don't want
    to waste a single move, switch to your melee weapons
    early and fire daggers out of your quiver and/or zap
    your reserve attack wands and/or use your cone of cold
    spell.

    When you are on a special level with a named demon,
    it is probably a good strategy to plan on using that
    strategy anyways. Named demons teleport directly to
    you most of the time so remote is not an option.
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Doug Freyburger wrote:
    > Drew Levitt wrote:
    > > Doug Freyburger wrote:
    > >
    > > > Luck=13 and enchanted to +7 means your wielded weapon
    > > > will always hit. That overwhelms the difference
    > > > between Expert and Basic.
    >
    > Does luck=13 and enchanted to +7 mean always hits in
    > all circumstances? I'm not positive. I can't recall
    > a time when a character with that missed any monster
    > but maybe so very powerfull monsters ...

    How about when wielding 2 weapons? Even at skilled level you still get
    -5 to hit; does high weapon enchantment and luck overcome that?

    > > Sounds like a good strategy, but can't you only throw Mjollnir when
    > > it's your wielded weapon? And wouldn't that mean that you have to be
    > > constantly switching between weapons setups? Which takes a turn, if
    > > I'm not mistaken? How do you deal with this?
    >
    > Monsters switch wielded weapons all the time, so the
    > DevTeam thinks it is good enough strategy to have
    > monsters do it.
    >
    > With a monster powerfull enough that you don't want
    > to waste a single move, switch to your melee weapons
    > early and fire daggers out of your quiver and/or zap
    > your reserve attack wands and/or use your cone of cold
    > spell.
    >
    > When you are on a special level with a named demon,
    > it is probably a good strategy to plan on using that
    > strategy anyways. Named demons teleport directly to
    > you most of the time so remote is not an option.

    Good point.
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    John H. wrote:
    > Drew Levitt wrote:
    >
    > > My issue is this: I just sacrificed again and was given Grayswandir,
    > > which seems to be an amazing weapon, but checking the weapons spoilers
    > > I see that I can only get to basic in silver saber. Is it worth it to
    > > enchant Grayswandir to +7 or should I stick with Mjollnir, enchant it
    > > instead and wait for gauntlets of power?
    [SNIP]
    > Summary:
    > Grayswandir gets x2 damage, plus d20 only against demons.
    > Mjollnir gets +d24 damage against all non-shock-resistant foes, plus
    > that throwing thing.
    >
    > Further, you already have hammer at expert, but can't seem to get
    > Greyswandir above Basic.
    >
    > Sounds to me like the big M is the best bet. It's keeping in
    > character, too....

    Personally, I'd use GS just because it seems really cool and I never
    get it; valks get mojo all the time.

    But from what you said, it sounds like Grayswandir is the best bet:
    Mojo 1d4+16 / 1d4+15 (1d4+1/1d4 base, +7 enchant, +2 expert, +6
    strength)
    GS: 2d8+26 / 2d8+26 (1d8/1d8 base, +7 enchant, +6 strength, all
    doubled)
    (Damage versus small/large creatures)

    Mojo also does 1d24 lightning damage against non-shock-resistant
    Grayswandir also does 1d20 (not doubled) against silver-haters.

    So that's 35/35 average for GS, 31/30 for Mojo (including lightning
    damage, 18.5/17.5 against shock resistant foes).
    And GS does an extra 10.5 on average against silver-hating creatures
    (most demons/vampires/werecreatures/etc).

    Now if I'm wrong about strength bonuses being doubled, knock 6 off both
    numbers for GS: 29/29 vs 31/30, but GS has the silver bonus which more
    than compensates for 1-2 points of damage IMO.

    Also, Mojo has the unfortunate side effect of occasionally blowing up
    rings/wands/potions/etc carried by your foes; you can't collect nearly
    the same goodies that you can with Grayswandir.

    (And all of this is assuming you're not, umm, "brave" enough to go
    around throwing Mjollnir and risk missing the catch and blowing up your
    ring of levitation while you're hovering over the lava or whatever
    other insidious situation the RNG dreams up.)
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Drew Levitt wrote:
    > Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >
    > > > > Luck=13 and enchanted to +7 means your wielded weapon
    > > > > will always hit. That overwhelms the difference
    > > > > between Expert and Basic.
    >
    > > Does luck=13 and enchanted to +7 mean always hits in
    > > all circumstances? I'm not positive. I can't recall
    > > a time when a character with that missed any monster
    > > but maybe so very powerfull monsters ...
    >
    > How about when wielding 2 weapons? Even at skilled level you still get
    > -5 to hit; does high weapon enchantment and luck overcome that?

    I alays advance the weapon classes individually in advance
    before I start to #twoweapon, so I don't know how levels
    other than max effect the situation.

    Artifacts tend to be +2 or +5 to hit and that overcomes
    the -5 to hit twoweapon issue. Hits are chances in 20.
    13-luck and 7-enchantment are 20 right there.
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Drew Levitt wrote:

    > My issue is this: I just sacrificed again and was given Grayswandir,
    > which seems to be an amazing weapon, but checking the weapons spoilers
    > I see that I can only get to basic in silver saber. Is it worth it to
    > enchant Grayswandir to +7 or should I stick with Mjollnir, enchant it
    > instead and wait for gauntlets of power?

    The artifacts spoiler lists how the various artifacts compare when used
    by different classes, and at +7 enchantment, taking into account the
    maximum skill for that class.

    --
    Boudewijn.

    --
    "I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
    as my signature..." - Me
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    In article <1124090171.295976.146900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, Drew
    Levitt says...
    > Is it worth it to
    > enchant Grayswandir to +7 or should I stick with Mjollnir, enchant it
    > instead and wait for gauntlets of power?
    >
    > - Drew
    >
    >

    Check out art2-343.txt

    I'd recommend sticking with Mojo until Gehennom, then switching to GS
    and (assuming Gauntlets of Power) use Mojo as your ranged weapon. You'll
    probably have enough ?oEW by then to enchant both to +7.
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Doug Freyburger wrote:
    > I alays advance the weapon classes individually in advance
    > before I start to #twoweapon, so I don't know how levels
    > other than max effect the situation.

    >From weap-343.txt, in the exhaustive section on calculating the chance
    to hit:
    + A penalty if using two weapons and/or riding while poorly skilled;
    see 2-WEAP +HIT and RIDING +HIT in the weapon skills table above.
    (For the former purpose, your skill is considered to be the lower
    of
    your actual two-weapon skill and your skill in your primary
    weapon.)

    > Artifacts tend to be +2 or +5 to hit and that overcomes
    > the -5 to hit twoweapon issue. Hits are chances in 20.
    > 13-luck and 7-enchantment are 20 right there.

    This seems to be correct, as far as I can tell. However, note that you
    must also add the monster's AC, your experience level, your DEX bonus,
    etc. etc. Your XL is almost always going to cancel out or exceed the
    monster's AC though.
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Don't forget the golden rule of combat: Never expose your body to the
    opponent if you can avoid it. Hence use ranged weapons if available and
    effective, in preference to close combat. Keep GS plus a second sabre if
    available for close combat if unavoidable. A stack of +7 blessed
    fooproof elven daggers is deadly used by a skilled Valkyrie.

    And daggers have the added bonus that one scroll can enchant many items.
    Lets say you wield 30 elven daggers at +0. Read a blessed scroll of
    enchant weapon and you could get 30 +3 daggers, that is a hit point
    resource increment of 90 !
    Read the same scroll whilst wielding a long sword at +0 and you get
    possibly 3 HPRIs. Even with only 10 elven daggers you could get 30
    HPRIs, 27 better than with the sword.
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 8/15/05 1:08 PM, Tom Goodman wrote:
    > And daggers have the added bonus that one scroll can enchant many items.
    > Lets say you wield 30 elven daggers at +0. Read a blessed scroll of
    > enchant weapon and you could get 30 +3 daggers, that is a hit point
    > resource increment of 90 !
    > Read the same scroll whilst wielding a long sword at +0 and you get
    > possibly 3 HPRIs. Even with only 10 elven daggers you could get 30
    > HPRIs, 27 better than with the sword.

    Uh, *really* skewed logic here. It ignores the reusability of weapons,
    and the limitation of how many weapons can be used at a time.

    The long sword enchanted to +3 can inflict an extra 3 hp of damage per
    melee round. Wield one of the daggers (or the stack; it doesn't matter)
    and you'll get the same extra 3 hp extra damage. (Chance to hit is
    affected in the same way.)

    Of course, you can *throw* your daggers, up to 4 at a time based on
    skill level, so the extra damage inflicted per round by daggers can
    range from 3-12, as opposed to the 3 for the sword (some classes can
    also #twoweapon, but we're talking about the additional damage given
    from a single ?oEW here), but that's as great as the advantage gets. Of
    course, at some point, you have to *retrieve* your thrown daggers, as
    opposed to the sword still in your hand; a factor that may come into
    play when fighting hordes (Castle, Ludios, Bigroom).

    Simply adding together the individual points of enchantment in a stack
    creates a meaningless sum.

    --
    Kevin Wayne

    "There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
    --Mark Twain
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Andrew Kerr wrote:
    >
    > Check out art2-343.txt
    >
    > I'd recommend sticking with Mojo until Gehennom, then switching to GS
    > and (assuming Gauntlets of Power) use Mojo as your ranged weapon. You'll
    > probably have enough ?oEW by then to enchant both to +7.

    Okay, having checked out art2-343.txt I note that it recommends either
    Mjollnir or Frost Brand for a later-game Valkyrie. Let's throw one
    more thing in the mix: last night I walked into an ordinary dungeon
    room and found a cave spider hiding beneath a long sword named Frost
    Brand. The sword is currently chilling in my blessed BoH, along with
    Sunsword and Grayswandir (I think I have the artifacts situation under
    control, except perhaps for Magicbane). Of course, I can advance long
    sword to Expert, so does this change anything? What now would you
    recommend?

    - Drew
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Drew Levitt wrote:
    > Andrew Kerr wrote:
    >
    > > Check out art2-343.txt
    >
    > > I'd recommend sticking with Mojo until Gehennom, then switching to GS
    > > and (assuming Gauntlets of Power) use Mojo as your ranged weapon. You'll
    > > probably have enough ?oEW by then to enchant both to +7.
    >
    > Okay, having checked out art2-343.txt I note that it recommends either
    > Mjollnir or Frost Brand for a later-game Valkyrie. Let's throw one
    > more thing in the mix: last night I walked into an ordinary dungeon
    > room and found a cave spider hiding beneath a long sword named Frost
    > Brand. The sword is currently chilling in my blessed BoH, along with
    > Sunsword and Grayswandir (I think I have the artifacts situation under
    > control, except perhaps for Magicbane). Of course, I can advance long
    > sword to Expert, so does this change anything? What now would you
    > recommend?

    Both Mjollnir and Frost Brand can destroy items carried by
    the monster you hit. Grayswandir does not do that. None
    effect death-drop items that are created at the time a
    monster dies. As a result I prefer Grayswandir over Frost
    Brand when available starting as soon as luck can be
    maxed out at 13 to make skill issues less important.

    Frost Brand does cold damage, Mjollnir does shock damage.
    More deeper monsters are shock resistant that cold
    resistant. As a reult I prefer Frost Brand over Mjollnir
    starting about the Castle or VotD.

    A Valk can end up Expert in dagger, hammer and long sword,
    plus Basic in saber.
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    In article <1124205334.712084.61020@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Drew Levitt
    says...

    > Okay, having checked out art2-343.txt I note that it recommends either
    > Mjollnir or Frost Brand for a later-game Valkyrie. Let's throw one
    > more thing in the mix: last night I walked into an ordinary dungeon
    > room and found a cave spider hiding beneath a long sword named Frost
    > Brand. The sword is currently chilling in my blessed BoH, along with
    > Sunsword and Grayswandir (I think I have the artifacts situation under
    > control, except perhaps for Magicbane). Of course, I can advance long
    > sword to Expert, so does this change anything? What now would you
    > recommend?
    >
    > - Drew
    >
    >
    If you're already expert in hammer, why switch to long sword? Keep it for when
    you accidentally throw Mojo into lava ;)
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