Locating stuff with /commune/

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The "twenty questions" nature of the /commune/ spell bothers me a bit.
My players have often used it to conduct a binary search:

Is the bad guy on this plane?
Is he on the western continent?
Is he in the Holy Empire?
Is he in the Province of Foo?
Is he in a major city?

.... et cetera. You can locate stuff pretty easily that way. However, I
don't particularly like this mini-game. It's too easy for the players to
screw up when there characters would not, and vice versa. Plus, it's a
big waste of time, as the players carefully plan out their binary search
pattern in advance.

Instead, I thought of an alternative approach: In addition to yes or no
questions, you can ask for a location or an identity. Examples: "Where
is the Legendary Amulet of Power?" "Who killed Abbot Costello?" These
open-ended questions use up one yes-or-no question per level of the
subject. If the Legendary Amulet is a CL 20 item, it uses up 20
questions. If the abbot's murderer is a 3rd-level character, it uses up
three questions.

I'd need to tighten it up a bit (i.e., should you use character level,
effective character level, or challenge rating for NPCs), but what do
you think of the basic idea?
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> The "twenty questions" nature of the /commune/ spell bothers me a
bit.
> My players have often used it to conduct a binary search:
>
> Is the bad guy on this plane?
> Is he on the western continent?
> Is he in the Holy Empire?
> Is he in the Province of Foo?
> Is he in a major city?
>
> ... et cetera. You can locate stuff pretty easily that way. However,
I
> don't particularly like this mini-game. It's too easy for the players
to
> screw up when there characters would not, and vice versa. Plus, it's
a
> big waste of time, as the players carefully plan out their binary
search
> pattern in advance.
>
> Instead, I thought of an alternative approach: In addition to yes or
no
> questions, you can ask for a location or an identity. Examples:
"Where
> is the Legendary Amulet of Power?" "Who killed Abbot Costello?" These
> open-ended questions use up one yes-or-no question per level of the
> subject. If the Legendary Amulet is a CL 20 item, it uses up 20
> questions. If the abbot's murderer is a 3rd-level character, it uses
up
> three questions.
>
> I'd need to tighten it up a bit (i.e., should you use character
level,
> effective character level, or challenge rating for NPCs), but what do
> you think of the basic idea?

I like it! Actually I think you could basically do a knowledge
(whatever) check, and just have the spell give you a bonus instead.

I personally hate the way these spells work, and always have, anything
is an improvement. I've currently got them banned from my game after
23 years I just got fed up. I might let them come back if we can come
up with something on it that's not f'ing annoying.

- justisaur

 

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Justisaur wrote:
>
> I like it! Actually I think you could basically do a knowledge
> (whatever) check, and just have the spell give you a bonus instead.

Oooh, I *like* that idea!

-Bluto

 

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In article <slrnd3mnfl.49i.bradd+news@szonye.com>,
Bradd W. Szonye <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote:
>The "twenty questions" nature of the /commune/ spell bothers me a bit.
>My players have often used it to conduct a binary search:
>
> Is the bad guy on this plane?
> Is he on the western continent?
> Is he in the Holy Empire?
> Is he in the Province of Foo?
> Is he in a major city?
>
>... et cetera. You can locate stuff pretty easily that way. However, I
>don't particularly like this mini-game. It's too easy for the players to
>screw up when there characters would not, and vice versa. Plus, it's a
>big waste of time, as the players carefully plan out their binary search
>pattern in advance.
>
>Instead, I thought of an alternative approach: In addition to yes or no
>questions, you can ask for a location or an identity. Examples: "Where
>is the Legendary Amulet of Power?" "Who killed Abbot Costello?" These
>open-ended questions use up one yes-or-no question per level of the
>subject. If the Legendary Amulet is a CL 20 item, it uses up 20
>questions. If the abbot's murderer is a 3rd-level character, it uses up
>three questions.
>
>I'd need to tighten it up a bit (i.e., should you use character level,
>effective character level, or challenge rating for NPCs), but what do
>you think of the basic idea?

Its a nice idea but it does give away the _level_ of the challange
(at a metagame level at least). how about adding a random element
ie some sort of roll DC vs Encounter levle to see if the next
question is answered.
--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.

 

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"Senator Blutarsky" <monarchy@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:423B8D5E.7BCBAC93@comcast.net...
> Justisaur wrote:
>>
>> I like it! Actually I think you could basically do a knowledge
>> (whatever) check, and just have the spell give you a bonus instead.
>
> Oooh, I *like* that idea!

Agreed. It could be used sort of like Bardic Knowledge, even. Personally,
I go for the type of answer that steers the characters in the right
direction, without spoiling things.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Bradd wrote:
>> ... I thought of an alternative approach: In addition to yes or no
>> questions, you can ask for a location or an identity. Examples:
>> "Where is the Legendary Amulet of Power?" "Who killed Abbot
>> Costello?" These open-ended questions use up one yes-or-no question
>> per level of the subject ....

Mr. M.J. Lush wrote:
> Its a nice idea but it does give away the _level_ of the challange (at
> a metagame level at least). how about adding a random element ie some
> sort of roll DC vs Encounter levle to see if the next question is
> answered.

I thought of that, but I don't think it's worth "fixing."
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd3mnfl.49i.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> The "twenty questions" nature of the /commune/ spell bothers me a bit.
> My players have often used it to conduct a binary search:
[snip]

Personally, the spell "commune" has always basically been viewed as a direct
call to the gods. Wasting a god's time is not something to be done lightly,
so characters in our campaign always make sure that the questions are
important enough to warrant a god's response. If they start asking
questions that a god would not waste his time answering, he's quite likely
to hang up the phone, as it were. As such, in our campaign, "twenty
questions" in a commune spell would NEVER happen, mainly because after about
2 questions, the god being queried would stop answering questions out of
sheer annoyance with the party. That's how *I* would handle your binary
search problem. But most people find my suggestions stupid, insipid and
banal, so there is that...

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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bradd+news@szonye.com wrote:

> The "twenty questions" nature of the /commune/ spell bothers me a bit.
> My players have often used it to conduct a binary search:
>
> Is the bad guy on this plane?
> Is he on the western continent?
> Is he in the Holy Empire?
> Is he in the Province of Foo?
> Is he in a major city?

IMC, it was even more jarring.

Is the temple in the southern half of the city? No.
Is the temple in the western half of the northern half? Yes.
Is the temple...

I don't really mind PCs being able to get the answer they want, it's
just that playing a 9+ question guessing game gets tedious.

> I'd need to tighten it up a bit (i.e., should you use character level,
> effective character level, or challenge rating for NPCs), but what do
> you think of the basic idea?

Good.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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Mere moments before death, Jasin Zujovic hastily scrawled:
>bradd+news@szonye.com wrote:
>
>> The "twenty questions" nature of the /commune/ spell bothers me a bit.
>> My players have often used it to conduct a binary search:
>>
>> Is the bad guy on this plane?
>> Is he on the western continent?
>> Is he in the Holy Empire?
>> Is he in the Province of Foo?
>> Is he in a major city?
>
>IMC, it was even more jarring.
>
>Is the temple in the southern half of the city? No.
>Is the temple in the western half of the northern half? Yes.

Tell your players that the "...of the northern half" bit is redundant.



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin

 

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Jeff Goslin wrote:
> But most people find my suggestions stupid, insipid and
> banal, so there is that...

Then again, the usual reply around here is RTFM. I happen to like your
idea.


Ralph Glatt

Member, Old Farts Club

 

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One thing to think about is that a god has how many hundreds of
thousands (millions?) of worshippers, all begging for attention, while
the god is busy trying to fulfil his agenda. He's going to get pretty
testy if the PCs are pestering him for information. They should be
using commune as a *last* resort.

Ralph Glatt

Member, Old Farts Club

 

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Justisaur wrote:
>>> I like it! Actually I think you could basically do a knowledge
>>> (whatever) check, and just have the spell give you a bonus instead.

Bluto wrote:
>> Oooh, I *like* that idea!

Malachias Invictus wrote:
> Agreed. It could be used sort of like Bardic Knowledge, even.
> Personally, I go for the type of answer that steers the characters in
> the right direction, without spoiling things.

I'm curious how you'd implement this. I'd like to keep the current
ability to ask more than one question, just eliminating the "twenty
questions" aspect of it. I think the spell is OK once you get rid of the
mini-game.

One possibility: Assign a Knowledge or Bardic Lore DC for the question,
and have the player make the check before casting /commune./ If the
character succeeds, there's no need to cast the spell. If he fails, then
getting the correct answer uses up one "question" for every 2 points he
missed the check by. Instead of playing twenty-questions, the character
says, "Hey, god, I figured this much out; what am I missing?" The more
homework you do in advance, the more useful information the god will
give you.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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Jeff Goslin wrote:
> Personally, the spell "commune" has always basically been viewed as a
> direct call to the gods. Wasting a god's time is not something to be
> done lightly, so characters in our campaign always make sure that the
> questions are important enough to warrant a god's response. If they
> start asking questions that a god would not waste his time answering,
> he's quite likely to hang up the phone, as it were ....

Locating a major villain isn't wasting the god's time; it's a valid use
of the spell. Even doing it in twenty-questions style doesn't really
waste time. After all, it only takes a minute or so in game time. The
spell only wastes the /players'/ time, because any non-trivial use
requires them to play an annoying mini-game.

In short, you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

> But most people find my suggestions stupid, insipid and banal, so
> there is that...

Gee, I wonder why that is.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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autockr@comcast.net wrote:

> As such, in our campaign, "twenty
> questions" in a commune spell would NEVER happen, mainly because after about
> 2 questions, the god being queried would stop answering questions out of
> sheer annoyance with the party.

Why does he grant his clerics the ability to ask one question per level,
then?


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr

 

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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:50:20 -0500, Ed Chauvin IV wrote:

> Mere moments before death, Jasin Zujovic hastily scrawled:
>>bradd+news@szonye.com wrote:

>>IMC, it was even more jarring.
>>
>>Is the temple in the southern half of the city? No.
>>Is the temple in the western half of the northern half? Yes.
>
> Tell your players that the "...of the northern half" bit is redundant.

You sure about that?

Take a look at a map of Ontario sometime: Just saying western half will
include none of southern Ontario.

--
Phoenix

 

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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:38:19 +0000, Bradd W. Szonye wrote:

> In short, you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

A fix that just came to mind would be to have each question allowed
improve the PC's information one 'step'.

Using finding something as an example, you might have steps like:

Plane
Continent
Large nation/Region
Province/Small nation
City/County
Neighbourhood/Town
Building
Floor/Wing
Room

You know that it's in the Holy Empire, (a large nation). You need to
know what building? It uses four questions. You need to know the room?
Six questions.

--
Phoenix

 

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In article <1111273114.956201.118060@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
<julian814@hotmail.com> wrote:
>One thing to think about is that a god has how many hundreds of
>thousands (millions?) of worshippers, all begging for attention, while
>the god is busy trying to fulfil his agenda. He's going to get pretty
>testy if the PCs are pestering him for information. They should be
>using commune as a *last* resort.

Goodness me! Its a lucky god that has hundreds of thousands (millions?) of
worshippers who are all 9th level clerics with a Wisdom of 15+


--
Michael
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NPC rights activist | Nameless Abominations are people too.

 

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Mere moments before death, Rick Pikul hastily scrawled:
>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:50:20 -0500, Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
>
>> Mere moments before death, Jasin Zujovic hastily scrawled:
>>>bradd+news@szonye.com wrote:
>
>>>IMC, it was even more jarring.
>>>
>>>Is the temple in the southern half of the city? No.
>>>Is the temple in the western half of the northern half? Yes.
>>
>> Tell your players that the "...of the northern half" bit is redundant.
>
> You sure about that?

Positive.

> Take a look at a map of Ontario sometime: Just saying western half will
>include none of southern Ontario.

And?



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin

 

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Mr. M.J. Lush wrote:
> In article <1111273114.956201.118060@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> <julian814@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >One thing to think about is that a god has how many hundreds of
> >thousands (millions?) of worshippers, all begging for attention,
while
> >the god is busy trying to fulfil his agenda. He's going to get
pretty
> >testy if the PCs are pestering him for information. They should be
> >using commune as a *last* resort.
>
> Goodness me! Its a lucky god that has hundreds of thousands
(millions?) of
> worshippers who are all 9th level clerics with a Wisdom of 15+

Have you ever seen the movie "Bruce Almighty"? People of all levels
would be praying for favors from their god. That's what I'm talking
about.


Ralph Glatt

Member, Old Farts Club

 

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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:28:34 -0500, Ed Chauvin IV wrote:

> Mere moments before death, Rick Pikul hastily scrawled:
>>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:50:20 -0500, Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
>>
>>> Mere moments before death, Jasin Zujovic hastily scrawled:
>>>>bradd+news@szonye.com wrote:
>>
>>>>IMC, it was even more jarring.
>>>>
>>>>Is the temple in the southern half of the city? No.
>>>>Is the temple in the western half of the northern half? Yes.
>>>
>>> Tell your players that the "...of the northern half" bit is redundant.
>>
>> You sure about that?
>
> Positive.

You might want to rethink your position then, because it is in error.

>> Take a look at a map of Ontario sometime: Just saying western half
>>will include none of southern Ontario.
>
> And?

Depending on the shape of the city, (say it's on the SW corner of a
lake), the temple could be right on the western edge but not be in the
western half.

Thus, just asking if the temple is in the western half, knowing that it
is also in the northern half, might not gain you any more information: As
the entire western half of the city lays within the southern half.

--
Phoenix

 

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Mere moments before death, Rick Pikul hastily scrawled:
>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:28:34 -0500, Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
>
>> Mere moments before death, Rick Pikul hastily scrawled:
>>>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:50:20 -0500, Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mere moments before death, Jasin Zujovic hastily scrawled:
>>>>>IMC, it was even more jarring.
>>>>>
>>>>>Is the temple in the southern half of the city? No.
>>>>>Is the temple in the western half of the northern half? Yes.
>>>>
>>>> Tell your players that the "...of the northern half" bit is redundant.
>>>
>>> You sure about that?
>>
>> Positive.
>
> You might want to rethink your position then, because it is in error.

It most certainly is not.

>>> Take a look at a map of Ontario sometime: Just saying western half
>>>will include none of southern Ontario.
>>
>> And?
>
> Depending on the shape of the city, (say it's on the SW corner of a
>lake), the temple could be right on the western edge but not be in the
>western half.

Just because the western edge does not always lie within the western
half does not change what you already know about the north/south axis.
In fact, by phrasing the second question the way it is above reduces
it's informative value in some situations.

> Thus, just asking if the temple is in the western half, knowing that it
>is also in the northern half, might not gain you any more information: As
>the entire western half of the city lays within the southern half.

If it were in the western half in such a city, the answer to the first
question would not have been no.



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin

 

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Mere moments before death, julian814@hotmail.com hastily scrawled:
>Mr. M.J. Lush wrote:
>> In article <1111273114.956201.118060@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
>> <julian814@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >One thing to think about is that a god has how many hundreds of
>> >thousands (millions?) of worshippers, all begging for attention, while
>> >the god is busy trying to fulfil his agenda. He's going to get pretty
>> >testy if the PCs are pestering him for information. They should be
>> >using commune as a *last* resort.
>>
>> Goodness me! Its a lucky god that has hundreds of thousands (millions?) of
>> worshippers who are all 9th level clerics with a Wisdom of 15+
>
>Have you ever seen the movie "Bruce Almighty"? People of all levels
>would be praying for favors from their god. That's what I'm talking
>about.

Meanwhile, everyone else is discussing the use of the Commune spell,
which is available only to a specific subset of any given god's
worshippers. When were you going to read the damn thread?



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin

 

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Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
> Mere moments before death, Rick Pikul hastily scrawled:
> >
> > Depending on the shape of the city, (say it's on the SW
> > corner of a lake), the temple could be right on the western
> > edge but not be in the western half.
>
> Just because the western edge does not always lie within the
> western half does not change what you already know about the
> north/south axis. In fact, by phrasing the second question
> the way it is above reduces it's informative value in some
> situations.
>
> > Thus, just asking if the temple is in the western half,
> > knowing that it is also in the northern half, might not
> > gain you any more information: As the entire western half
> > of the city lays within the southern half.
>
> If it were in the western half in such a city, the answer
> to the first question would not have been no.

How so? Given a city layout of (non-proportional font):

.. ABCD
.. EFGH

A and B are the western half of the northern half of the city.
C and D are the eastern half of the northern half of the city.
E and F are the western half of the southern half of the city.
G and H are the eastern half of the southern half of the city.

Asking "is <X> in the southern half of the city?" would result in: Yes
(<X> is in A, B, C or D) or No (<X> is in E, F, G or H).

Following a No answer with "is <X> in the western half of the city?"
would result in: Yes (<X> is in A) or No (<X> is in B, C, or D). This
might take two more questions to pinpoint (though, obviously, it
*could* pinpoint <X> right away).

Instead following a No answer with "is <X> in the western half of the
northern half of the city?" would result in: Yes (<X> is in A or B) or
No (<X> is in C or D). This, while not pinpointing <X> right away,
has the advantage of being able to pinpoint <X> in the very next
question, without error.

If the city's layout was instead:
.. AB
.. CD
Following a No on "southern half" with "is in western half?" is a
useless question.

So, while I agree that standard layouts are simpler to reduce question
ambiguity, oddly-shaped cities do not support the same logic.

--
Nik
- remove vermin from email address to reply.

 

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On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 03:36:34 -0500, "Jeff Goslin"
<autockr@comcast.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> I guess more to the point, it doesn't take much to screw up even the most
> powerful creature's schedule. Imagine, for a moment, that you have
> (literally) the direct line to the Oval Office. The Prez is in conference
> with 15 world leaders, and you call him up to see if he knows the number of
> a local pizza joint. That would be somewhat equivalent to asking a god to
> find some piddlyshit temple for you.

That's why gods have minions, and why they are able to handle multiple
tasks at once. Are your gods really so limited they can't have a small
chunk of their conciousness deal with such requests without bothering
the rest of them?


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:m6rr31tjltqk0i608487s5amdhmls78kmk@4ax.com...
> > a local pizza joint. That would be somewhat equivalent to asking a god
to
> > find some piddlyshit temple for you.
>
> That's why gods have minions, and why they are able to handle multiple
> tasks at once. Are your gods really so limited they can't have a small
> chunk of their conciousness deal with such requests without bothering
> the rest of them?

I'm sure they have minions, and I'm sure they can multitask, and they are
not terribly limited. I guess our deities are not terribly concerned about
the things that concern men as a general rule. If you want to commune with
a deity in our campaign, it had BETTER be about something the GOD would want
to talk about, not just what YOU want to know about.

A chat about finding some temple is not terribly important in the grand
scheme. Questions about a plot that threatens to end the deity's worship on
that planet is a different story. We reserve our communes for those special
events where it's REALLY important, and use the lesser spells to get other
information.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right