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How the heck do you keep wizards alive?

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Anonymous
August 19, 2005 7:14:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

I've taken up trying to ascend as a Wizard now and I swear I can't even
get one to the bottom of the mines without dying. Particularly
frustrating when he looks very promising. How do you guys get them
higher level without getting maimed?

More about : heck wizards alive

Anonymous
August 19, 2005 7:22:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

> Learn to rely on your pets. Stand back and either use spells or throw
> things (dagger for preference; dagger is a good weapon for you). If
> you're not using a lot of spells, feel free to tank up -- lots of happy
> armor in the Mines. Do Sokoban; "oReflection and BoH are both good for
> you. Retreat and rest when needed -- run upstairs and find a safe place
> to recover (any monsters that do spawn will be weaker than if you were
> farther down).
>
>
> Keith

Good point, I hadn't thought about running upstairs to where they would
be weaker. I usually just rested where I needed to. I use Force Bolt
like crazy, I usually stick with my quarterstaff, maybe I should switch
over to a dagger though . . .) I generally try to stay away from armor
that hinders my Force Bolting abilities. I have a good shot at getting
Magicbane this game though, I've got a wand of create monster and an
alter upstairs, just waiting till I get to XL 3 . . .
Anonymous
August 19, 2005 7:28:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Err . . . that one died rather suddenly, but here's a question . . .

Does anyone know the probability of death from polymorphing yourself?
I have a =oPolymorph and was just wondering about it. Don't have poly
control yet but might be handy to know.
Related resources
August 19, 2005 10:03:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Chris the Wizard wrote:
> I've taken up trying to ascend as a Wizard now and I swear I can't even
> get one to the bottom of the mines without dying. Particularly
> frustrating when he looks very promising. How do you guys get them
> higher level without getting maimed?

Don't pick a human. You'll have a higher chance of surviving the
Gnomish Mines if you pick a class with infravision.

Note that you can wear a metal helmet and metal boots, and still have a
really good success rate with force bolt. I would also carry around a
metal armor (mithril if possible) to wear during emergencies.

I #enhance dagger up to Expert before spending skill slots on anything
else. The primary attack of a mage in the Gnomish Mines is to throw
daggers. You can usually get a stack of normal daggers from the things
you kill in the Gnomish Mines. Ditch the quarterstaff. Replace it
with a dagger (runed dagger if possible) when you need to melee. After
dagger is at Expert, you can start using skill slots to get 'Attack
spells' up to Expert.

Use 'Elbereth' whenever you need room. Since you have infravision, you
can usually see monsters before they reach you. If you think you might
need to write 'Elbereth', start writing it in the dust before the
monsters reach you. This way you can try writing multiple times it
case you botch a couple attempts. Collect all the rings and gems you
find. Try 'E'ngraving with them to see if any of them can engrave into
the floor. Until I find a engravable gem/ring, I carry around a couple
of crude daggers in case I need to engrave 'Elbereth' into the ground.
Also, try 'E'ngraving with the wands you find to see if any of them can
engrave into the floor.

Force Bolt is used in tough situations. If you are ever at max MP, you
can force bolt once to get the skill point. However, you shouldn't be
wasting force bolt on junk mobs that aren't a real threat to your life.

I descend through the normal dungeon until my pet is at the large
version (large cat), and I'm at least at XL3. Then I descend through
the Gnomish Mines. Try to keep your pet in sight so you can look to
see if your pet is getting hit with a weapon. If your pet is getting
hit with a weapon, or is getting hit by a high damaging monster (i.e.
'q' monsters), try to kill the attacker as fast as possible with ranged
attacks (with force bolt if possible).

I don't like doing Sokoban before the Gnomish Mines. I think it's
important to get to the bottom of the Mines before your level gets too
high, and Sokoban appears to boost your level too much. I also
wouldn't #offer corpses before I reach the bottom of the Mines, because
standing around killing things raises your level. I also would never
protection racket a wizard, since I think the protection racket is too
risky if you aren't a Gnomish Healer.
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 2:02:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

> 7) You can never, ever, ever have enough power points. There are three
> ways to get bumps in power. I advise utilizing all three.
>
> BAJ

I know you can increase your power points from drinking potions of gain
energy at full power, but what are the other ways?
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 2:18:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Chris the Wizard <nextbeatle@comcast.net> wrote:
> I've taken up trying to ascend as a Wizard now and I swear I can't even
> get one to the bottom of the mines without dying. Particularly
> frustrating when he looks very promising. How do you guys get them
> higher level without getting maimed?

Learn to rely on your pets. Stand back and either use spells or throw
things (dagger for preference; dagger is a good weapon for you). If
you're not using a lot of spells, feel free to tank up -- lots of happy
armor in the Mines. Do Sokoban; "oReflection and BoH are both good for
you. Retreat and rest when needed -- run upstairs and find a safe place
to recover (any monsters that do spawn will be weaker than if you were
farther down).


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 4:28:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Chris the Wizard wrote:
> Err . . . that one died rather suddenly, but here's a question . . .
>
> Does anyone know the probability of death from polymorphing yourself?
> I have a =oPolymorph and was just wondering about it. Don't have poly
> control yet but might be handy to know.
>

*Consults spoiler*

According to the spoiler, you have a (19 - constitution) in 20 chance of
getting system shock, which makes you lose 1 to 30 HP. So you're safe if
you have more than 30 HP (or 19 Con, unlikely :p ). Also, according to
the ring intrinsics spoiler, poly control prevents system shock entirely.
August 20, 2005 11:00:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Chris the Wizard <nextbeatle@comcast.net> wrote:
> I've taken up trying to ascend as a Wizard now and I swear I can't even
> get one to the bottom of the mines without dying. Particularly
> frustrating when he looks very promising. How do you guys get them
> higher level without getting maimed?

I have found that wizards really are (ridiculously) easy, just like
everyone says. The "secret" is Elbereth. That's all there is to it.
Just Elbereth and force bolt the stronger monsters (and/or let your pet
kill them); engage the weaker ones with your melee weapon (I use
quarterstaff as my main weapon, keeping it at Basic to conserve skill
slots. Daggers are nice but heavy, and I also find it tedious to throw
and pick them back up all the time).

There are very few monsters in the early game that are
Elbereth-resistant, so the early game really should be a cakewalk. Green
elves are one, but by the time you encounter them, you should be more
than strong enough to take them. They go down quickly to force bolts.

The more serious danger are monsters that can blind you and prevent you
from writing Elbereth, i.e. the "y's" and ravens. They can very well be
fatal if you're not careful.

Spell hunger is another issue, but not really a problem unless you're
CONSTANTLY casting. Still, just to be safe, I like to make an early stop
at Sokoban (at least the first level) to make sure I have enough food.

Finally, I like playing gnomish wizards because they are neutral and
have infravision, and thus are a nice balance between humans (no
infravision) and elves (chaotic only).
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 11:04:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Chris the Wizard <nextbeatle@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Learn to rely on your pets. Stand back and either use spells or throw
>> things (dagger for preference; dagger is a good weapon for you). If
>> you're not using a lot of spells, feel free to tank up -- lots of happy
>> armor in the Mines. Do Sokoban; "oReflection and BoH are both good for
>> you. Retreat and rest when needed -- run upstairs and find a safe place
>> to recover (any monsters that do spawn will be weaker than if you were
>> farther down).
>
> Good point, I hadn't thought about running upstairs to where they would
> be weaker. I usually just rested where I needed to. I use Force Bolt
> like crazy, I usually stick with my quarterstaff, maybe I should switch
> over to a dagger though . . .)

Magicbane is your friend in the early game, and it uses the same skill
as thrown daggers. Getting a nice stack of elven daggers isn't all that
hard (be vewwy vewwy quiet, I'm hunting hobbits), enchanting them up is
beneficial.

> I generally try to stay away from armor
> that hinders my Force Bolting abilities.

Stay away from metal armors. Leather, studded leather, *DSM are all
good. As attractive as gauntlets of power are for the carrying
capacity, they are not your friend if you're casting a lot -- gloves of
dexterity are much nicer for you, as long as you keep your strength up.

> I have a good shot at getting
> Magicbane this game though, I've got a wand of create monster and an
> alter upstairs, just waiting till I get to XL 3 . . .

Well, yeah, magicbane is your first gift.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 11:04:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Chris the Wizard <nextbeatle@comcast.net> wrote:
> Err . . . that one died rather suddenly, but here's a question . . .
>
> Does anyone know the probability of death from polymorphing yourself?
> I have a =oPolymorph and was just wondering about it. Don't have poly
> control yet but might be handy to know.

It's Con-based, IIRC, but exactly what the chances are I don't know.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 11:07:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Chris the Wizard <nextbeatle@comcast.net> wrote:
>> 7) You can never, ever, ever have enough power points. There are three
>> ways to get bumps in power. I advise utilizing all three.
>>
>> BAJ
>
> I know you can increase your power points from drinking potions of gain
> energy at full power, but what are the other ways?

Some ways that can work (with varying reliability):

.. eating newts
.. magic trap dancing (if you can handle the other effects...)
.. Magicbane -- appears to absorb magic from creatures; I haven't checked
the spoilers on this one but I have found myself with some disgusting
Pow totals when wielding Magicbane. OTOH, I tend to kick ass after
getting MagicBane and living longer, so that could be the reason.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 3:27:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Byron A Jeff wrote:

> 4) For the Wizard more than anyone else, cheap light AC is a must. So
> play the protection racket with the minetown priest. Work on getting
> holy water as soon as possible. ID enchant armor (and remove curse for
> that matter) and use them best effect.

I play all my wizards for keeps and the best way to advance them I've
found is altar camping. Set your stash to the first altar you find and
make dips to lower levels always coming back with all the stuff you want
to buc id. Use your shops to price id everything. And offer everything
you can spare. After you',ve gotten the Magibane stop offering when you
can pray and pray on the altar you'll soon get golden glows which raises
your hitpoints.

> 5) MagicBane is the flat bomb! Pray for it and it will come. Also
> at some point altar camp and pray for all the spellbooks you ever need.

You can pray for the Magicbane until the cows come home and you'll never
get it. Try offering instead.

Topi
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 3:28:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Chris the Wizard wrote:

>>7) You can never, ever, ever have enough power points. There are three
>>ways to get bumps in power. I advise utilizing all three.
>>
>>BAJ
>
> I know you can increase your power points from drinking potions of gain
> energy at full power, but what are the other ways?

At least newt eating, magic trap dancing and confused charging. So there
is at least four of them.

Topi
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 3:38:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

anon wrote:

> Chris the Wizard <nextbeatle@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>I've taken up trying to ascend as a Wizard now and I swear I can't even
>>get one to the bottom of the mines without dying. Particularly
>>frustrating when he looks very promising. How do you guys get them
>>higher level without getting maimed?
>
>
> I have found that wizards really are (ridiculously) easy, just like
> everyone says. The "secret" is Elbereth. That's all there is to it.
> Just Elbereth and force bolt the stronger monsters (and/or let your pet
> kill them); engage the weaker ones with your melee weapon (I use
> quarterstaff as my main weapon, keeping it at Basic to conserve skill
> slots. Daggers are nice but heavy, and I also find it tedious to throw
> and pick them back up all the time).

What are you conserving the skill slots for. A 30-level wizard has all
the skill slots she needs to advance evry magic school to expert and
dagger to expert and still 2 (IIRC) left.

My strategy is just the opposite. I'm leveling my character on low early
dungeon as my ultimate is to get to level 30. The earlier I get there
the easier the monsters are. Eventually I need to face those nasty
monsters but then I'm already level 30 and kitted up.

Topi
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 4:02:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Doug Freyburger wrote:

> Byron A Jeff wrote:
>>
>> 1) You have major mojo in your starting stuff. A CoMR is almost a weapon.
>> Force bolt certainly is. Magic Missile when you get it and get higher
>> level is more devestating that many real weapons.
>
> Magic misslie is not an early option. Force bolt is a
> wand of striking that keeps recharging as your mana
> returns.

Magic missile is a wizard's special spell. You won't always be able to take
advantage of it, but if it happens to be your random initial spell, or
you're lucky enough to find it early, it rocks! You can put on that
mithril coat and still cast magic missile at a very low failure rate,
typically 4%, provided you wear no shield and no other metal armor.

What's more, magic missile bounces; force bolt doesn't. So play it off a
wall to hit your enemy twice. With your CoMR, you needn't fear being hit.
It's also safe for Sokoban and for nymphs carrying mirrors.

--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
The War on Terra is not meant to be won.
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 4:12:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Keith Davies wrote:

> Chris the Wizard <nextbeatle@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> 7) You can never, ever, ever have enough power points. There are three
>>> ways to get bumps in power. I advise utilizing all three.
>>>
>>> BAJ
>>
>> I know you can increase your power points from drinking potions of gain
>> energy at full power, but what are the other ways?
>
> Some ways that can work (with varying reliability):
>
> . eating newts
> . magic trap dancing (if you can handle the other effects...)
> . Magicbane -- appears to absorb magic from creatures; I haven't checked
> the spoilers on this one but I have found myself with some disgusting
> Pow totals when wielding Magicbane. OTOH, I tend to kick ass after
> getting MagicBane and living longer, so that could be the reason.

All methods of boosting level: natural advance, !oGL, wraiths, and foocubi.
Foocubi also give a power boost without level boost ("You feel raised to
your full potential").

Wizards have naturally good intelligence scores, which helps a lot with the
foocubi. Max out your charisma through magic trap dancing ("You feel
charismatic!") and you can usually get at least 90% positive effects.


--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
The War on Terra is not meant to be won.
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 6:09:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Chris the Wizard wrote:
> I've taken up trying to ascend as a Wizard now and I swear I can't even
> get one to the bottom of the mines without dying. Particularly
> frustrating when he looks very promising. How do you guys get them
> higher level without getting maimed?

1. Level up quickly--the protection racket is particularly horrible
for wizards. You want more PW, more spell effects, etc as quick as
possible, and usually money to buy protection isn't very scarce anyway
once you are tough enough to get to Minetown and through Sokoban.
You'll spend more time dieing as a level 1 wizard in the Mines than you
would just playing it straight. Do buy that first level of protection
as soon as you can--digging out vaults is a good thing.
2. Get a stack of daggers, and increase skill in them so you can be a
machine-gunner. I switch from the quarterstaff to a dagger ASAP, name
the first runed dagger I find "Sting", and then get a stack of runed
daggers to enchant (and a stack of regular daggers to tide me over in
the interim).
3. Run away when you need to--deal death from a distance.
4. Don't wear metal armor--even a 4% chance of spell failure will get
to you eventually. Beg, borrow, or steal studded leather in the early
game (leather until you find it). If you can wear a metal helm or
boots without affecting casting, go for it. Otherwise, save it for
later. Some people wear metal armor early, I find it's just not worth
it.
5. If you keep a pet, you have to be very cognizant of its location
and avoid accidentally killing it with a force bolt when it's behind a
monster in a corrider. Pets are a huge help in the early game (before
Minetown and Sokoban), but I think some people here overrate them a bit
in the mid-game.
6. Don't conserve charges with those wands of cold, lightning, magic
missile, fire, striking, etc--early in the game they increase your
survivability greatly. Late in the game you can just throw magic
missiles and fingers of death at people. So use those wands as needed.
7. At low levels, conserve PW for when you're in a bind. Don't be
afraid to cast spells when you need to, but don't burn them on lone
jackals and such.
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 10:01:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <de5rae$3q5@cleon.cc.gatech.edu>, Byron A Jeff wrote:

> 5) MagicBane is the flat bomb! Pray for it and it will come. Also at
> some point altar camp and pray for all the spellbooks you ever need.

More accurately, #offer to get MB and #pray for protection and +.

--
Panu
"You haven't really been anywhere until you've got back home",
Twoflower in "The Light Fantastic"
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 10:30:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Keith Davies wrote:
> . Magicbane -- appears to absorb magic from creatures; I haven't checked
> the spoilers on this one but I have found myself with some disgusting
> Pow totals when wielding Magicbane. OTOH, I tend to kick ass after
> getting MagicBane and living longer, so that could be the reason.

I haven't seen it in the spoilers, and I haven't dug it out of
the code, so I'm not sure precisely how it works, but my experience
indicates that when you cancel a spellcaster (or possibly any critter...
the casters I'm sure about, though) with a blow from Magicbane, you
absorb some Power points.

--
John Campbell
jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 11:41:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Byron A Jeff wrote:

> Find the first poly trap and poly up that kitty to a dragon, balrog,
> hell pup, or my favorite: the arch Lich!

The arch lich is the worst pet of the above. Although a lich (of any
sort) is a formidable foe, it is a bad ally. For once, it will only do
cold damage, making it unusable against things like a blue jelly.
Secondly, once a lich is tame, it cannot use it spells anymore,
including the touch of death, so it's by far less dangerous than a
hostile one. Thirdly, liches don't eat, so it will gradually lose its
tameness, which you cannot increase. Fourth, since you cannot increase
its tameness, it may eventually go wild, at which point it suddenly
remembers how to *really* kick ass. Your ass.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
Anonymous
August 21, 2005 5:03:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Chris the Wizard <nextbeatle@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Learn to rely on your pets. Stand back and either use spells or throw
>> things (dagger for preference; dagger is a good weapon for you). If
>> you're not using a lot of spells, feel free to tank up -- lots of happy
>> armor in the Mines. Do Sokoban; "oReflection and BoH are both good for
>> you. Retreat and rest when needed -- run upstairs and find a safe place
>> to recover (any monsters that do spawn will be weaker than if you were
>> farther down).
>
> Good point, I hadn't thought about running upstairs to where they
> would be weaker. I usually just rested where I needed to. I use
> Force Bolt like crazy, I usually stick with my quarterstaff, maybe I
> should switch over to a dagger though . . .) I generally try to stay
> away from armor that hinders my Force Bolting abilities. I have a
> good shot at getting Magicbane this game though, I've got a wand of
> create monster and an alter upstairs, just waiting till I get to XL 3
> . . .

The quarterstaff hits decently well, and you start at Basic with it.
It's quite attractive to stick with it.

If you quiver daggers and throw them they'll build your skill up; when
you get Magicbane it climbs *fast* because it so consistently does
damage (IIRC skill development with weapons happens when you do damage,
and Magicbane does damage easily).

I *usually* stay away from heavy armor. However, if I get to start with
a happy pet (read: wand of polymorph and a lucky result) I'll gladly
tank up. Let Trappy take care of the monsters while I stand back and
don't get hit. It's about the only time I go for the protection racket
as a wizard.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 10:59:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Topi Linkala wrote:
> anon wrote:
> > Chris the Wizard wrote:
>
> > > How do you guys get them
> > > higher level without getting maimed?
>
> > I have found that wizards really are (ridiculously) easy, just like
> > everyone says. The "secret" is Elbereth. That's all there is to it.

Assuming you manage to survive until you get your
athame, that is. Before then engraving Elbereth
damages your weapons to the point they can no longer
do so. If you engrave a lot very early you can run
out of weapons faster than you get them. It's
important to survive to that first altae camping
session.

Before then it's a matter of running away, fighting
with missiles and spells, keeping a clear line to
the up stairs for the weaker monsters a level up,
using your pet to take out as much as possible, and
accumulating better armor.

A question on the E-word - Do puddings respect it?
In my current game I have a level with a bunch of
puddings in case I want to pudding farm. I wonder
if I should use Magicbane to engrave on a path from
stairs to stairs. And should I drop a rock or
whatever on each spot?

> > Just Elbereth and force bolt the stronger monsters (and/or let your pet
> > kill them); engage the weaker ones with your melee weapon (I use
> > quarterstaff as my main weapon, keeping it at Basic to conserve skill
> > slots. Daggers are nice but heavy, and I also find it tedious to throw
> > and pick them back up all the time).
>
> What are you conserving the skill slots for.

For spells.

> A 30-level wizard has all
> the skill slots she needs to advance evry magic school to expert and
> dagger to expert and still 2 (IIRC) left.

That's the point I think. Max out every spell school
plus dagger leaves only 2 points left at XP level 30.
Is it worth enhancing quarterstaff skill even once?
Not unless you wish for a Quest artifact from another
class and manage to wield it.

Because there are only 2 left, and because the game
may eventually give you a couple of really good
non-dagger-class artifacts, those 2 should be reserved
for very good artifacts or for weapons with other uses
for other reasons than the quaterstaff. I'm not averse
to making sure my wizards wield a pickaxe while praying
because of what happens when you're crowned, but those
two slots are probably better used for broadsword class
if Stormy arives, long sword class if one of the Brands
arrives or similar.

> My strategy is just the opposite. I'm leveling my character on low early
> dungeon as my ultimate is to get to level 30. The earlier I get there
> the easier the monsters are. Eventually I need to face those nasty
> monsters but then I'm already level 30 and kitted up.

Which is the opposite of a common strategy discussed on
RGRN. I love this type of strategy ambiguity in Nethack.
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 1:43:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Chris the Wizard" <nextbeatle@comcast.net> writes:

> I've taken up trying to ascend as a Wizard now and I swear I can't even
> get one to the bottom of the mines without dying.

Then don't do that ;-). Seriously, the mines are not a good
idea as first stop for a wiard. Low HP, many possible range
attacks, poly traps, skip it until later.

> How do you guys get them
> higher level without getting maimed?

Do you know the concept of Daggers of Death?

(Qnttref fgnpx naq pna urapr or rapunagrq ra znffr;
shegure, na rkcreg hfhnyyl guebjf 2-4 qnttref cre
ebhaq, urapr gur rapunagzrag obahf nccyvrf frireny
gvzrf. Vs ninvynoyr, ryira qnttref ner cersreenoyr.)

Best,
Jakob
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 1:45:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Topi Linkala <nes@iki.fi> writes:

> anon wrote:
>
> > Chris the Wizard <nextbeatle@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >>I've taken up trying to ascend as a Wizard now and I swear I can't even
> >>get one to the bottom of the mines without dying. Particularly
> >>frustrating when he looks very promising. How do you guys get them
> >>higher level without getting maimed?
> > I have found that wizards really are (ridiculously) easy, just like
> > everyone says. The "secret" is Elbereth. That's all there is to it.
> > Just Elbereth and force bolt the stronger monsters (and/or let your
> > pet
> > kill them); engage the weaker ones with your melee weapon (I use
> > quarterstaff as my main weapon, keeping it at Basic to conserve skill
> > slots. Daggers are nice but heavy, and I also find it tedious to throw
> > and pick them back up all the time).
>
> What are you conserving the skill slots for. A 30-level wizard has all
> the skill slots she needs to advance evry magic school to expert and
> dagger to expert and still 2 (IIRC) left.

However, it can be tiresome and/or resource-intensive to
get level 30. Less patient players might want to ascend at
lower levels.

Best,
Jakob
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 3:05:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Chris the Wizard" <nextbeatle@comcast.net> wrote:
>I know you can increase your power points from drinking potions of gain
>energy at full power, but what are the other ways?

s/ at full power//

You *always* gain max Pw if you drink non-cursed potions of gain energy.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
illusion/kinetics controlling is love
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 3:09:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

John Campbell <jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com> wrote:
> I haven't seen it in the spoilers, and I haven't dug it out of
>the code, so I'm not sure precisely how it works, but my experience
>indicates that when you cancel a spellcaster (or possibly any critter...
>the casters I'm sure about, though) with a blow from Magicbane, you
>absorb some Power points.

You gain one point each of current and maximum power every time you
cancel a *wizardly* spellcaster with Magicbane.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
illusion/kinetics controlling is love
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 7:41:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
>A question on the E-word - Do puddings respect it?

Yes. They are not minotaurs or @s.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
illusion/kinetics controlling is love
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 1:39:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 22 Aug 2005 06:59:33 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
<dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Topi Linkala wrote:
>> anon wrote:
>> > Chris the Wizard wrote:
>>
>> > > How do you guys get them
>> > > higher level without getting maimed?
>>
>> > I have found that wizards really are (ridiculously) easy, just like
>> > everyone says. The "secret" is Elbereth. That's all there is to it.
>
>Assuming you manage to survive until you get your
>athame, that is.

"E-" engraves with the character's finger, i.e. writes in the
dust. Much better than nothing. Using a hard gem, (N.B. one
letter at a time!) to set up a safe spot *in advance* would also
work.


The best starting equipment a wizard can have is a wand of
speed monster, though spell of haste self is almost as good.
(Wizards are slow.)

I play early wizards as armor-testers and pet-followers. Pets
rarely get you out of trouble, but they can be used to *keep* you
out of trouble. That also tends to keep your character from
leveling up too fast.

Multiple pets are even better. Leashes can help there.
Carrying a tripe ration works even better. A magic whistle can
help a *lot*. Note: fortune cookies can be used to tame cats and
dogs.

What's the best armor for an early wizard? Non-cursed and
non-burdening that gives the lowest AC. Use the pet to id
non-cursed armor. Then try on almost everything, but especially
gloves, helms, boots and shields: Accessorize! You'll see more
accessories than anything else, so they're more likely to turn
up highly enchanted.

One highly enchanted (+3/4) piece of accessory armor can make
an early wizard very survivable. I've found and worn +4 elven
mithril and a +4 elven shield (in different games).

Once you're highly accessorized, switch to leather body armor,
studded or otherwise, for spellcasting purposes. (Check every
non-cursed leather armor a leather golem leaves behind.)
Boots don't affect spellcasting that much. Shields and helms
only take one turn to Wear or Take off for spellcasting.

Check what each piece of armor does to your spell failure
rates. Pick and choose so that only one or two easily removeable
pieces of armor need to be taken off for spellcasting.
#Adjust armor to standard letters in every game to make it easy
to Wear/Take off spell-unfriendly armor.

MineTown is a good place to get your gloves and small shields.
(Small shields are the only spell-friendly shields. But even
they can badly affect spell failure rates for early wizards.)
Let your pets take out the Minetown guards for you. Or throw
daggers, the guards are slow. Minetown guards are also a good
source of leather or studded leather armor.

(Fort Ludios and the Castle are good places to find your
endgame gloves and small shield.)


Your first early non-cursed crystal plate mail will break your
heart.


That frequently makes spellcasting impossible in melee, but an
early wizard rarely has enough mana points to survive as a spell
caster anyway. Especially if the character doesn't have the
magic missile spell. (If they do have Magic Missile, spell
friendly armor is much easier to find.)


So, to increase damage done by weapons, switch to daggers ASAP.
This has several advantages over the quarterstaff:
- Allows use of a shield.
- Slots used to #enhance the dagger skill will also apply to
Magicbane.
- Daggers give a ranged attack even without spell-friendly
armor.
- Higher skill levels allow for multiple daggers to be thrown
per attack, even at melee range.

Note that the quarterstaff can still be used at melee range if
desired. #adjust your largest stack of daggers to 'Q' for
easy quivering ("QQ", then 'f' to fire them), or 't' for easy
throwing ("tt" to throw them).



Do Sokoban early to increase strength. Increased strength not
only does more damage per dagger thrown, but permits daggers
to be thrown farther as well.

Check the statues on the Oracle level for spellbooks while
you're on your way to Sokoban.


Summary:
Get faster asap. Unfortunately, you have little control
over when asap is.
Let your pet get it -
- The more pets the better.
- Use your pets to stay out of trouble, not get out of
trouble.
Elbereth -
- With your fingers: "E-"
- Magicbane
"Run away! Run away!"
Test all non-cursed armor for -
- AC improvement
- Effect on spell-failure rates.
- Effect on burdened status.
- Remember can take off armor for spell-casting in non
emergency situations.
Daggers -
- Intrinsic +2 to-hit for daggers makes them easier
to get to basic skill level than other weapons.
- Ranged attack.
- Can be #enhanced to "Skilled" skill level.
- Multiple thrown per attack at higher skill levels.
- Dagger skill applies to Magicbane.
- Can be thrown even at melee range.
- All daggers have a base price of $4, with an additional
$10 for each point of enchantment.
- Elven daggers avg 0.5 more hp damage vs small monsters
than regular daggers. Regular daggers average 0.5 more
hp damage vs small monsters than orcish (aka crude)
daggers.
- Let you wear a shield.
Sokoban -
- increase strength -
- more damage for each dagger thrown
- can throw daggers farther

With this approach I feel any wizard can survive the early game
once poison resistance is acquired. After that, reflection makes
the mid-game survivable. Magicbane should almost guarentee
ascension after that, since it allows semi-permanent engraving
of Elbereth in one turn without dulling.


Jove
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 11:12:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:
>
> "E-" engraves with the character's finger, i.e. writes in the
> dust. Much better than nothing. Using a hard gem, (N.B. one
> letter at a time!) to set up a safe spot *in advance* would also
> work.

You always give good advice, thanks.

> What's the best armor for an early wizard? Non-cursed and
> non-burdening that gives the lowest AC. Use the pet to id
> non-cursed armor. Then try on almost everything, but especially
> gloves, helms, boots and shields: Accessorize! You'll see more
> accessories than anything else, so they're more likely to turn
> up highly enchanted.
>
> One highly enchanted (+3/4) piece of accessory armor can make
> an early wizard very survivable. I've found and worn +4 elven
> mithril and a +4 elven shield (in different games).
>
> Once you're highly accessorized, switch to leather body armor,
> studded or otherwise, for spellcasting purposes. (Check every
> non-cursed leather armor a leather golem leaves behind.)
> Boots don't affect spellcasting that much. Shields and helms
> only take one turn to Wear or Take off for spellcasting.

It's interesting that you suggest having a wizard use a
shield. I've worn mithril instead and put up with the
spell casting penalty until I found at least studded
leather.

> MineTown is a good place to get your gloves and small shields.
> (Small shields are the only spell-friendly shields. But even
> they can badly affect spell failure rates for early wizards.)
> Let your pets take out the Minetown guards for you.

This can work on the way back up from mines end but I have
yet to play a game where my pet was strong enough on the
first way down.

> Or throw daggers, the guards are slow.

Works better as chaotic than as neutral unless you already
have a couple of floating eye's manuveured into a room and
the door locked.

> Minetown guards are also a good
> source of leather or studded leather armor.
>
> (Fort Ludios and the Castle are good places to find your
> endgame gloves and small shield.)

Nearly all of it mundane so its use is in polypiling
for the good stuff. Page after page of mundane armor
is needed to get enough good magical armor. Combine all
of the armor from the mines and all of the armor from
Ludios and it should be enough for a polypile party to
give you the armor items you want other than dragon
mail. Both Ludios and the Castle have enough dragons
that at least one should give scales.

> So, to increase damage done by weapons, switch to daggers ASAP.
> This has several advantages over the quarterstaff:
> - Allows use of a shield.
> - Slots used to #enhance the dagger skill will also apply to
> Magicbane.
> - Daggers give a ranged attack even without spell-friendly
> armor.
> - Higher skill levels allow for multiple daggers to be thrown
> per attack, even at melee range.

Name Sting as well to have an elven dagger to wield that
won't stack. This way you can keep all your other daggers
in your quiver and/or reload your quiver from your assortment.

> Note that the quarterstaff can still be used at melee range if
> desired. #adjust your largest stack of daggers to 'Q' for
> easy quivering ("QQ", then 'f' to fire them), or 't' for easy
> throwing ("tt" to throw them).

I like a and b for the melee weapons I alternate between,
c for my usual quiver, t for the next in line. Thanks for
suggesting Q for another dagger stack.

> Daggers -
> - Can be #enhanced to "Skilled" skill level.

Expert and worth it for all classes that can get to there.

> - Multiple thrown per attack at higher skill levels.
> - Dagger skill applies to Magicbane.
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 4:24:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> >You always give good advice, thanks.
>
> You've made my day!

Credit where it's due.

> I've spent a lot of time working things
> in detail (i.e. died a *lot*).

Once a topic comes up, I tend to source dive to
figure it out, and then incorporate the lesson
into future games.

> That's why I'd like to see a Nethack robot that's
> user-programable, to try to formalize some of it.
>
> (As a note, the user "subroutines" for such a bot would
> mostly be encoding existing practice. The difficult part
> would be knowing when to switch from one "mode" to another.
>
> Anyone who's noticed a monster waste time switching between
> ranged and melee weapons has seen an example of the problem.

Judgement call - Is that a problem or is switching
tactics good strategy? The DevTeam thinks it is
worth it for monsters to switch.

Think what this strategy means: A monster starts
attacking as soon as possible as far out as possible.
It attacks with every resource as it closes distance.
It switches attacks as the distance justifies. So
as soon as you are in visual range wands are used.
Once you are in arrow range, arrows are used. Once
you are in dagger/knife range they are thrown. Once
you are in polearm range they are applied. And finally
once you are face-to-face melee weapons are used.

The weak link in that strategy is the monsters who
run out of weapons and face you hand to hand not
the monsters who get killed in that one turn when they
switch weapons. As a monster or as a player, one turn
rarely matters. It's just that the game has a lot of
monsters to throw at you and you only have one player
character so if you end up dying from that one move
it matters more.

On the other hand, while monsters are a good example
of how to fight, their tendancy to fight to the death
is also an object lesson in bad strategy for combat
wombats. Wade in like a monster and you will die
like a monster. The few monsters that are the hardest
to kill are the ones that teleport away as soon as
their hit point fall too low.

> A shield and some form of leather armor should be close
> to mithril in protection. And the shield/leather approach
> just takes one turn to Take off the shield and you can
> cast spells.
>
> Much better than Taking off and Wearing mithril (and your
> cloak!) for spellcasting. Although mithril is not to be despised
> by any means.

I started using mithril with wizards because my combat
wombat characters went for mithril. My combat wombat
characters went for mithril at least as much for its
MC=3 as for its weight-to-AC ratio. Since wizards
start with an MC=3 type cloak, half of the entire line
of reasoning is invalid.

My current wizard is now post-Quest pre-Castle and
fully kitted, no more need for shield. Next wizard
I'll try leather plus shield.

> >> MineTown is a good place to get your gloves and small shields.
> >> (Small shields are the only spell-friendly shields. But even
> >> they can badly affect spell failure rates for early wizards.)
> >> Let your pets take out the Minetown guards for you.
>
> >This can work on the way back up from mines end but I have
> >yet to play a game where my pet was strong enough on the
> >first way down.
>
> Hmm...are you doing Sokoban first? Are you letting your pet
> get the minimal monsters? Pets benefit the same from *any* kill.
> I've many times gone into minetown with a two large dogs/cats
> and they just tear into the guards.

Sometimes I do a level of main dungeon alternated with
a level of mines until I hit either Sokoban then mine
town. Or I go to mine town and if the altar is
co-aligned camp there. Then usually Sokoban before
mines end. I get your point that doing Sokoban first
would toughen the pet enough, thanks. As to letting
my pet get the small monsters, monsters small enough
that I can wade through them I don't care if my et
gets them or if I do. I let my pet get the monsters
between over-run level and my own level and/or monsters
not in my direction of travel.

(Leading humans to an altar...)
> Once dead, the corpses can be sacrificed with a highly possible
> result of a foocubus. (NB. Same-race sacrifice always converts
> and altar to chaotic, guaranteed.) The first two such sacrifices
> will summon Yeenoghu & Juiblex as peacefuls.

This means a chaotic has a much easier time of using
foocubi to get to level 30 than neutrals or lawfulls.
Part of game balance to counter this is if a chaotic
angers his diety it takes much stronger sacrafices.

> The armor can be
> curse tested on the handy altar. Other goodies can be dropped
> into the stash.

Polypile on levels with altars.

> >Nearly all of it mundane so its use is in polypiling
> >for the good stuff. Page after page of mundane armor
> >is needed to get enough good magical armor. Combine all
> >of the armor from the mines and all of the armor from
> >Ludios and it should be enough for a polypile party to
> >give you the armor items you want other than dragon
> >mail. Both Ludios and the Castle have enough dragons
> >that at least one should give scales.
>
> Good advice. A wizard with the Eye of Aethiopica
> and the spell of polymorph can get pretty much any object,
> aside from dragon scales and artifacts. I used to ascend
> with a stack of 9 or so +7 silver daggers named SilverStorm,
> just for the fun of it.

Without a wish, my characters often wear uncursed +0
random dragon scale mail for a while and only bless and
enchant up GDSM or SDSM. Even with wizards I have taken
up a preference for GDSM and "oR because I like a robe
in my final kit.

As to getting objects you want with polymorph, most
of the items you can't get with polymorph you don't
want. Fedora, who cares. Athame, already get Magicbane.
Worm tooth, plentiful anyways and artifacts beat
crysknives. For non-wizards I've even spent a wish
to get a blessed +3 rustproot athame, though.

> I'm a real stickler for conserving scrolls of enchant
> armor, though The only dragon scales I'll enchant are silver.

I end up chosing the other popular scale mail, but I
agree on the armor. I want speed, dexterity/power,
brilliance, T-shirt, G/SDSM, robe/MR before I start
seriously enchanting (power only for cmbat wombats).
I like to keep assorted alternate specialty armor like
mummy, leviation, water walking, jump, kick in the
bag and they don't get enchanted until my main kit is
maxed. Before I get items for my armor kit, I wear
the best I've seen and hoard most scrolls. As a result
my characters get maxed weapons before the Quest but
maxed armor between the Quest and Medusa or even as late
as the Castle.

> >Name Sting as well to have an elven dagger to wield that
> >won't stack. This way you can keep all your other daggers
> >in your quiver and/or reload your quiver from your assortment.
>
> Good advice. Beats the gehennom out of trying to keep just
> one elven dagger named +0Wield.

Unless you're a serious artifact collector I guess.
Playing a lawfull or netural in any non-wizard class
that can't get to Expert in dagger, it can be
tempting to altar camp until you are possitive you'll
never see another gift, and only then name the two
nameables. But that's for other classes. When
playing a lawfull Valk my early question is to have
Sting or not before getting Mojo.
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 5:22:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 23 Aug 2005 07:12:01 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
<dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Jove wrote:
>>
>> "E-" engraves with the character's finger, i.e. writes in the
>> dust. Much better than nothing. Using a hard gem, (N.B. one
>> letter at a time!) to set up a safe spot *in advance* would also
>> work.
>
>You always give good advice, thanks.

You've made my day! I've spent a lot of time working things
in detail (i.e. died a *lot*). So now that I'm not playing as
much I want to make it available to others before it's all
forgotten.

That's why I'd like to see a Nethack robot that's
user-programable, to try to formalize some of it.

(As a note, the user "subroutines" for such a bot would
mostly be encoding existing practice. The difficult part
would be knowing when to switch from one "mode" to another.

Anyone who's noticed a monster waste time switching between
ranged and melee weapons has seen an example of the problem.

Heh, we could even allow for programming monster behavior.
That would be evil. Imagine monsters that don't conveniently
come at you one at a time through a door. And stay out of
your line of fire while doing so. Wow.)

>
>It's interesting that you suggest having a wizard use a
>shield. I've worn mithril instead and put up with the
>spell casting penalty until I found at least studded
>leather.

In the early game, any shield. In the endgame a small
shield because it won't interfere with spell casting.

A shield and some form of leather armor should be close
to mithril in protection. And the shield/leather approach
just takes one turn to Take off the shield and you can
cast spells.

Much better than Taking off and Wearing mithril (and your
cloak!) for spellcasting. Although mithril is not to be despised
by any means. Taking it off in non-combat situations still
allows for practicing spells to improve skills. I've also
taken off mithril to "pump up" spells that will help in
combat: Haste Self, Confuse Monster, skilled Detect Monster.

(YANI for the day: have skilled Detect Treasure act like
skilled Detect Monster, where the detection lasts for awhile.
Would be fascinating to watch objects in monsters inventory move
around the screen. Also, each move a different object in the
monsters inventory could be shown. You'd think you were
hallucinating. Shucks, have skilled spell of light follow you
around for a set number of turns as well. That would be cool.)


>
>> MineTown is a good place to get your gloves and small shields.
>> (Small shields are the only spell-friendly shields. But even
>> they can badly affect spell failure rates for early wizards.)
>> Let your pets take out the Minetown guards for you.
>
>This can work on the way back up from mines end but I have
>yet to play a game where my pet was strong enough on the
>first way down.

Hmm...are you doing Sokoban first? Are you letting your pet
get the minimal monsters? Pets benefit the same from *any* kill.
I've many times gone into minetown with a two large dogs/cats
and they just tear into the guards.

>
>> Or throw daggers, the guards are slow.
>
>Works better as chaotic than as neutral unless you already
>have a couple of floating eye's manuveured into a room and
>the door locked.

Very good point. Thanks for bringing it up. I always play
chaotic, partly for that reason. (Human & chaotic can lead
soldiers from the Castle, Fort Ludious, and barracks to the
nearest altar as goodies-bearing self-portable same-race
sacrifices.

Once dead, the corpses can be sacrificed with a highly possible
result of a foocubus. (NB. Same-race sacrifice always converts
and altar to chaotic, guaranteed.) The first two such sacrifices
will summon Yeenoghu & Juiblex as peacefuls. The armor can be
curse tested on the handy altar. Other goodies can be dropped
into the stash.

>> Minetown guards are also a good
>> source of leather or studded leather armor.
>>
>> (Fort Ludios and the Castle are good places to find your
>> endgame gloves and small shield.)
>
>Nearly all of it mundane so its use is in polypiling
>for the good stuff. Page after page of mundane armor
>is needed to get enough good magical armor. Combine all
>of the armor from the mines and all of the armor from
>Ludios and it should be enough for a polypile party to
>give you the armor items you want other than dragon
>mail. Both Ludios and the Castle have enough dragons
>that at least one should give scales.

Good advice. A wizard with the Eye of Aethiopica
and the spell of polymorph can get pretty much any object,
aside from dragon scales and artifacts. I used to ascend
with a stack of 9 or so +7 silver daggers named SilverStorm,
just for the fun of it.


I'm a real stickler for conserving scrolls of enchant
armor, though The only dragon scales I'll enchant are silver.
+4 leather/studded armor (which I've found several times)
with an amulet of reflection works fairly well. Especially
with my dogged search for the best gloves, boots, and small
shields available. The spell of haste self makes speed boots
optional. Other specialty boots (jumping, levitation, water
walking) can be worn as the occasion warrants


(I used to regularly ascend with close to -60 AC. Now -50 AC
is acceptable. ;^)


>
>Name Sting as well to have an elven dagger to wield that
>won't stack. This way you can keep all your other daggers
>in your quiver and/or reload your quiver from your assortment.
>

Good advice. Beats the gehennom out of trying to keep just
one elven dagger named +0Wield.

It looks like

>
>> Daggers -
>> - Can be #enhanced to "Skilled" skill level.
>
>Expert and worth it for all classes that can get to there.


Thanks for the correction. Wizards can of course get to
Expert in dagger.
August 24, 2005 12:54:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:
> On 23 Aug 2005 12:24:25 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
> <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Jove wrote:
> >> Doug Freyburger wrote:
> >>
> >
>
> >> Anyone who's noticed a monster waste time switching between
> >> ranged and melee weapons has seen an example of the problem.
> >
> >Judgement call - Is that a problem or is switching
> >tactics good strategy? The DevTeam thinks it is
> >worth it for monsters to switch.
>
> My mistake. I should have specified "waste time switching
> back and forth between ranged and melee weapons several times
> without using either." It might be possible to keep them
> in that state with judicious movement.
>
> The original Star Trek game had a similar problem with the
> AI for the Klingons: They'd all move a little closer. The
> next move they'd all move a little farther away. Then closer
> again, etc.
>
> <Much good stuff snipped>
>
>
> >
> >My current wizard is now post-Quest pre-Castle and
> >fully kitted, no more need for shield. Next wizard
> >I'll try leather plus shield.
>
> Why wouldn't you want to use a small shield once you had one?
> The Staff of misspelling keeping you from it?
>
> Come to think of it didn't someone post this year about
> ascending a wizard with their original quarterstaff?
>
> But again, my advice was for keeping early wizards alive.
> Once protection has been bought, dragon scale mail made,
> cornuthaum/HoB/elven-leather-helm enchanted up, etc. all kinds
> of possibilities open up.
>
>
> >
> >Sometimes I do a level of main dungeon alternated with
> >a level of mines until I hit either Sokoban then mine
> >town. Or I go to mine town and if the altar is
> >co-aligned camp there. Then usually Sokoban before
> >mines end. I get your point that doing Sokoban first
> >would toughen the pet enough, thanks. As to letting
> >my pet get the small monsters, monsters small enough
> >that I can wade through them I don't care if my et
> >gets them or if I do. I let my pet get the monsters
> >between over-run level and my own level and/or monsters
> >not in my direction of travel.
>
> If it works for you, great. I'll note that that's pretty
> much my approach as well. But for people who can't keep
> their wizards alive, strong pets is one method to try.
>
> Letting your pets take out more early will get
> you much tougher pets early. Two large cats can chew up
> almost anything in the mines. Keeping your character's
> level a little lower makes protection cheaper too.
>
>
> Not that I'm religious about strong pets. But as far
> as the subject of this thread goes, "How the heck do you
> keep wizards alive?", trading off a character level or two
> for strong pets is definitely one way to do it. (Heck,
> if pacifists can ascend using pets, surely an early wizard
> can survive using pets.)
>
> Note that some battle theory shows that the actual advantage
> of numbers is more than just the ratio of forces. The advantage
> of superior numbers is apparently more like the ratio of the
> square of the numbers. Hence a 2:1 advantage in numbers is more
> like a 4:1 in force. So a cloud of pets (Hello, magic whistle!)
> would be unbelievably powerful if the devteam had not nerfed
> them by always allowing a monster to respond to a pet's attack.
>
> To see how strong that is, suppose your character had this
> ability against hostile monsters. When surrounded you'd get
> nine hits instead of one or two per round. Equivalent to
> at least a five times increase in speed.
>
> This may also be the real reason behind "No multi-player
> Nethack." Especially the lack of genuine multi-character
> parties, even for a single person playing the game. And
> why no character class has the ability to really control
> pets.
>
> Just allowing a player to control two different characters
> would be enormously powerful. One character would pin a monster
> in melee while the other hit it with ranged weapons. Then
> switch off if the character meleeing started getting hurt.
>
> With decent pet control, of course, the pet would generally
> be the one meleeing. It's more replaceable. (Although imagine
> controlling a pair of black dragons.)
>
> Three player-characters under the control of a single player
> would really be something, and so on.
>
> Imagine if the monsters acted cooperatively. The first few
> monsters on a level would run away. When more showed up they'd
> start using ranged attacks, avoiding melee combat. Or maybe take
> turns coming in for a few melee hits to wear you down before
> running. With a majority they'd launch multiple simultaneous
> attacks from different directions until you were mobbed in melee.
>
> That was kind of my point about allowing players to change
> monster control routines. If the soldiers at Ft. Ludious
> hung back from the choke points and used their weapons wisely,
> getting in would be a lot tougher. Lots of ranged weapons, eg:
> lit potions of oil, skilled cone of cold & fireball, etc. Area
> effect weapons would almost be required.
>
> All the soldiers would have to do is make a hollow formation,
> falling back where ever you advanced, hitting you with a cross
> fire from wands, knives, daggers, etc. Or they could set up like
> this:
>
> --+
> ..|XXX
> ..|.YX
> ..@.YX
> ..|.YX
> ..|XXX
>
>
> All the Xs would have polearms to hit you from a distance.
> The Ys could have offensive wands, or just have plate mail
> armor.
>
> Of course, true cooperative tactics on the part of the monsters
> would almost require multi-character parties for the player.
> Whether a single player controls all the characters or each
> character is controlled by a different player would be almost
> irrelevant.
>
>
> This could be an exciting new direction for Nethack: not
> multi-player, but multi-character.

Incidentally, check out Guild at http://www.guildgame.com for a
single-player multi-character roguelike...

A.
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 5:05:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Antoine wrote:

> Jove wrote:

>> This could be an exciting new direction for Nethack: not
>> multi-player, but multi-character.
>
> Incidentally, check out Guild at http://www.guildgame.com for a
> single-player multi-character roguelike...

Just as a pointer, this is *all* the quoting you (= Antoine) needed for
your reply. Quoting the entire message made the reply so hard to find
that I wouldn't be surprised if hardly anyone had read it.

Raisse, killed by a newt, while helpless

--
irina@valdyas.org LegoHack: http://www.valdyas.org/irina/nethack/
Status of Raisse (piously neutral): Level 8 HP 63(67) AC -3, fast.
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 6:55:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <aeeng151amjq8vgmum48e47pf3h1ho7t8f@4ax.com>, Jove says...
> This could be an exciting new direction for Nethack: not
> multi-player, but multi-character.
>
If there were to be a new multi character roguelike, I'd like to see it multi
player too. Teamwork and good old fashioned social interaction is fun.
Obviously there are issues to resolve - turn taking, sharing info and items
etc.

wrt intelligent monsters - one solution is to use an expert system. There are
systems designed for real time, including gaming, use. Expert systems allow
human knowledge to be directly imparted to an AI, and can produce very
impressive results.

Example: CLIPS
http://www.ghg.net/clips/CLIPS.html

A research student at U of Nottingham has been working on a system using the
RETE algorithm used by CLIPS designed specifically for small footprint multi
agent games. It will be called GORE and will be released under the BSD license
"soon".
http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/%7Enem/

Using any AI/ML system may limit the game to relatively powerful machines
however.
Anonymous
August 24, 2005 9:14:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
>square of the numbers. Hence a 2:1 advantage in numbers is more
>like a 4:1 in force. So a cloud of pets (Hello, magic whistle!)
>would be unbelievably powerful if the devteam had not nerfed
>them by always allowing a monster to respond to a pet's attack.

Er, not quite. A monster responds to being *hit* by a pet. On the rounds
where your pet misses, it doesn't get counterattacked.

> Imagine if the monsters acted cooperatively.

Every game you played, you'd be met at the downstairs by four minotaurs.

Serious point here; you can't have monsters cooperate too effectively
without fundamentally changing the game.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Tuesday, August.
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 4:22:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
>
> >... So a cloud of pets (Hello, magic whistle!)
> >would be unbelievably powerful if the devteam had not nerfed
> >them by always allowing a monster to respond to a pet's attack.
>
> Er, not quite. A monster responds to being *hit* by a pet. On the rounds
> where your pet misses, it doesn't get counterattacked.

This alone gives a pet a large advantage. The pet hits,
the monster swings. The pet misses, the monster wanders
aimlessly. Every time the monster misses a swing the
pet ended up getting in a free hit.

I've watched pets attack and they back off when they are
injured (I think they back off when they are down to
half their max hit points). This means a pet can attack
for a while, back off to heal and the monster heals at
the same time, and the combat resumes again and again in
a cycle.

So what tends to kill a hit is a monster that hits much
harder than its level would suggest. A trapper or purple
worm with it's instakill, someone with a wand, the watch
captain with a +2 long sword ...
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 9:46:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:55:19 GMT, Andrew Kerr
<andykerr@SPAMGUARD.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <aeeng151amjq8vgmum48e47pf3h1ho7t8f@4ax.com>, Jove says...
>> This could be an exciting new direction for Nethack: not
>> multi-player, but multi-character.
>>
>If there were to be a new multi character roguelike, I'd like to see it multi
>player too. Teamwork and good old fashioned social interaction is fun.
>Obviously there are issues to resolve - turn taking, sharing info and items
>etc.
>

Ssshhhh! Once we get multi-character into Nethack then
multi-player should be easier to implement. Let's not back
the devteam into a corner about multi-player before then.

Obviously I agree with you 100%. Actually, multi-character
parties could be done multi-player via hotseating, instructions,
etc. Kind of like the old coin-op arcade machines with a
repeater screen on top.

It might be best to wait until there's been some experience
with multi-character before deciding what issues need to be
resolved. Turn-taking could act just like it does now with
regard to pets. So could sharing info & items. Sometimes
pets seem to know when I've found a trap, sometimes they don't.
Items can be dropped and picked up to exchange them.

Just a minimal interface change that permits full
control over more than just the one player-character would
minimize the new learning necessary. Hence my suggestion
of sneaking in multi-character through a new weak character
class whose only strength is full control over a single pet.

Hmmm...just having the commands: heel, pickup, drop, attack,
and #monster would do great things for a pet. Actually, a
variant of the healer class might be a good start. And make
the pet-nerfing "opportunity attack on pets" optional, at least
at compile time.


>wrt intelligent monsters - one solution is to use an expert system. There are
>systems designed for real time, including gaming, use. Expert systems allow
>human knowledge to be directly imparted to an AI, and can produce very
>impressive results.

That might be overkill to start with. Just tweaking monsters
not to come at you one at a time through a doorway would be
enough of a shock to most long-time players.

Although multi-character parties will probably be so powerful
that improved monster AI will be required just for play balance.

>
>Example: CLIPS
>http://www.ghg.net/clips/CLIPS.html
>
>A research student at U of Nottingham has been working on a system using the
>RETE algorithm used by CLIPS designed specifically for small footprint multi
>agent games. It will be called GORE and will be released under the BSD license
>"soon".
>http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/%7Enem/
>
>Using any AI/ML system may limit the game to relatively powerful machines
>however.

Got to agree with that one. It would be interesting what could
be done with a few simple rules though.

Didn't KPD post a while back about "flocking" algorithms for
herdlike monsters?


--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 9:49:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 23 Aug 2005 20:54:27 -0700, "Antoine" <mail@guildgame.com>
wrote:

>
>Jove wrote:
>>
>>
>> This could be an exciting new direction for Nethack: not
>> multi-player, but multi-character.
>
>Incidentally, check out Guild at http://www.guildgame.com for a
>single-player multi-character roguelike...
>
>A.

Thanks!


--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 10:01:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 25 Aug 2005 12:22:16 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
<dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

>David Damerell wrote:
>> Quoting Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
>>
>> >... So a cloud of pets (Hello, magic whistle!)
>> >would be unbelievably powerful if the devteam had not nerfed
>> >them by always allowing a monster to respond to a pet's attack.
>>
>> Er, not quite. A monster responds to being *hit* by a pet. On the rounds
>> where your pet misses, it doesn't get counterattacked.
>
>This alone gives a pet a large advantage. The pet hits,
>the monster swings. The pet misses, the monster wanders
>aimlessly. Every time the monster misses a swing the
>pet ended up getting in a free hit.
>
>I've watched pets attack and they back off when they are
>injured (I think they back off when they are down to
>half their max hit points). This means a pet can attack
>for a while, back off to heal and the monster heals at
>the same time, and the combat resumes again and again in
>a cycle.
>
>So what tends to kill a hit is a monster that hits much
>harder than its level would suggest. A trapper or purple
>worm with it's instakill, someone with a wand, the watch
>captain with a +2 long sword ...

Yes, but the monster *always* gets to counter-attack when
hit by a pet. So even if a monster has already used its
move to attack you, it still gets to respond to any hits
by your pet(s). Essentially, a monster always gets an extra
attack move when hit by a pet. Take that away and mutiple
pets become a lot more powerful.

Instead of:

Player attacks monster monster attacks player
Fluffy hits monster monster attacks Fluffy
Fido hits monster monster attacks Fido

Where the monster gets to do three times as much damage
due to counter-attacking pets, You'd get:

Player attacks monster monster attacks player
Fluffy hits monster
Fido hits monster

The monster gets hit three times and gets to hit once.


Right now two maxed-out large cats can chew up the Minetown
Guards very quickly. Take away the opportunity counter-attacks
and the two large cats would hardly be scratched doing so.



You do have a good point about pets being left alone as long
as they don't attack monsters. It would be interesting to see
what happens if both those special cases were removed.


--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 10:22:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 24 Aug 2005 17:14:02 +0100 (BST), David Damerell
<damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Quoting Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
>>square of the numbers. Hence a 2:1 advantage in numbers is more
>>like a 4:1 in force. So a cloud of pets (Hello, magic whistle!)
>>would be unbelievably powerful if the devteam had not nerfed
>>them by always allowing a monster to respond to a pet's attack.
>
>Er, not quite. A monster responds to being *hit* by a pet. On the rounds
>where your pet misses, it doesn't get counterattacked.
>
>> Imagine if the monsters acted cooperatively.
>
>Every game you played, you'd be met at the downstairs by four minotaurs.

Well, they'd certainly try. Hence my point about area effect
weapons coming into their own: lit potions of oil, scroll of
stinking cloud, skilled cone of cold, skilled fireball, spell
of cause fear, bouncing reflectable wand effects through a small
room or narrow corridor, etc.

Ranged attacks, even without area effects, would really come
into their own. Building up a stack of 100 +7 blessed arrows
could be an overwhelming advantage for a ranger.

Rocks would be the most plentiful ranged ammunition. Getting
good with a sling could become very important. Or polearms.

>
>Serious point here; you can't have monsters cooperate too effectively
>without fundamentally changing the game.

True, very true. But the same is true for multi-character
parties, or even more effective pet control. For the monsters,
effective cooperation could easily depend on species. A hostile
elf wouldn't necessarily cooperate with an orc, for example.

A good place to start might be the soldiers at Ft. Ludious.
It's not necessary to "complete" Ft. Ludious to ascend. You'd
expect soldiers to cooperate better than random monsters anyway.
Finally you'd have a reason to use stinking cloud and lit potions
of oil. #jumping could be used tactically to great effect.


Only having monsters cooperate in say, Gehennom might be worth
a try. The mazes prevent much in the way of effective
cooperative tactics. Just hope you don't get many umber hulks
digging out the levels.

That might answer the people (and I'm one of them) who think
Gehennom is boring. The early game for most characters requires
careful tactics, using every item, skill, and spell to maximum
advantage. The middle and late games seem to come down to
"step and stab."

Even the Castle and Ft. Ludious have multiple choke points and
monsters that conveniently come through them one at a time.


It doesn't have to be everything all at once. As I said, just
the Castle soldiers cooperating would be a nice start. Heck,
just don't have the soldiers obligingly come through the choke
points one at a time to be slaughtered and see what happens.

--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 4:52:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <3fhsg1hp39r357vln7vk9p38horklvu2bh@4ax.com>, Jove says...

> Let's not back
> the devteam into a corner about multi-player before then.

Wouldn't this whole idea have to be non dev team led anyway?

> Items can be dropped and picked up to exchange them.

Yes, but that's fiddly and annoying. A #pass command to directly move items to
a neighbouring player would be easier.

Allowing large groups of monsters to pass missiles to the front line and
polearms to the second would be fun.

> Hmmm...just having the commands: heel, pickup, drop, attack,
> and #monster would do great things for a pet.

Yup.

> >wrt intelligent monsters - one solution is to use an expert system.
> > There are
> >systems designed for real time, including gaming, use. Expert systems allow
> >human knowledge to be directly imparted to an AI, and can produce very
> >impressive results.

> That might be overkill to start with.

Overkill? No such thing! :D 

The hardest part would be integrating the system. Once that's done, programming
AI should be much easier.
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 3:57:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:55:19 GMT, Andrew Kerr
> <andykerr@SPAMGUARD.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>In article <aeeng151amjq8vgmum48e47pf3h1ho7t8f@4ax.com>, Jove says...
>>
>>>This could be an exciting new direction for Nethack: not
>>>multi-player, but multi-character.
>>>
>>
>>If there were to be a new multi character roguelike, I'd like to see it multi
>>player too. Teamwork and good old fashioned social interaction is fun.
>>Obviously there are issues to resolve - turn taking, sharing info and items
>>etc.
>>
>
>
> Ssshhhh! Once we get multi-character into Nethack then
> multi-player should be easier to implement. Let's not back
> the devteam into a corner about multi-player before then.
>
> Obviously I agree with you 100%. Actually, multi-character
> parties could be done multi-player via hotseating, instructions,
> etc. Kind of like the old coin-op arcade machines with a
> repeater screen on top.

So how do you keep it NetHack. I started a game of NetHack yesterday. I
didn't save it until I had to go to bed.

But during that gameplay I checked my mail aand read several usenet
groups at least five times. Reading some usenet group led to internet
surfing. Eivised one patch I'd made to NetHack and posted it. Prepared
my dinner, watched some tv and went to my local for one beer and the
newspapers.

Could you do that in a multiplayer game? And if not would it be NetHack?

This is a quote from nethack.org:

"Things we are NOT doing

snip!

Has anyone ever thought that multiplayer NetHack would be a neat idea?
(Sigh.) Yes, at least a couple hundred people. We think you can't
do that in a playable way without compromising the basic idea of being
able to think as long as you want about what you're doing, but many
people have made many different suggestions as to the one obvious way to
handle things. If you still like the idea, you can try Crossfire, a
multiplayer roguelike for UNIX/X11. Other games to check out are
MAngband and Diablo."

snip the reast!

Topi
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 4:13:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:

> My problem is I'm still so focussed maximizing everything
> as efficiently as possible: wielding my unicorn horn while
> praying to get it blessed. Ditto Magicbane. Ditto stack of
> elven daggers. Carrying all cursed items I want uncursed
> while praying. (Not including potions that might be gain level,
> c?oTele, c?oCM, c?oDA, etc.)

In one game my wizard had had some problems with brown puddings and her
cloak was very rotten or something like that. I hadn't found any enchant
armor scrolls but I had one destroy armor in my starting inventory. When
I found an unholy water I made a beeline back to my stash that was next
to an altar of Anhur. Made couple of unholy waters, cursed the scroll of
DA and read it while confused. Now my cloak was fooproofed but still had
the damage. I offered couple of wondering mosters caracasses and got
shamrocks so I wielded the cloak and prayed on the altar. That blessed
the cloak and fixed it.

Topi
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 4:17:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:

> On 24 Aug 2005 08:01:41 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
> <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Jove wrote:
>>
>>> Imagine if the monsters acted cooperatively. The first few
>>>monsters on a level would run away. When more showed up they'd
>>>start using ranged attacks, avoiding melee combat. Or maybe take
>>>turns coming in for a few melee hits to wear you down before
>>>running. With a majority they'd launch multiple simultaneous
>>>attacks from different directions until you were mobbed in melee.
>>
>>Shudder. Even having monsters decline to throw/zap
>>through each other to get to you sends shudders.
>>
>
> Yeah, that is a bit extreme. Current refinement would be
> just soldiers at Fort Ludious cooperate, or at least don't
> queue up to be killed.

But wouldn't you just put on a ring of conflict ;-)

Topi
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 4:34:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Quoting Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
><damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>Quoting Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
>>>Imagine if the monsters acted cooperatively.
>>Every game you played, you'd be met at the downstairs by four minotaurs.
> Well, they'd certainly try. Hence my point about area effect
>weapons coming into their own: lit potions of oil, scroll of
>stinking cloud, skilled cone of cold, skilled fireball, spell
>of cause fear, bouncing reflectable wand effects through a small
>room or narrow corridor, etc.

You don't have any of those things. You can't even light a potion of oil
and throw it, because every game you play is going to last one turn.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Thursday, August.
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 6:11:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <demlj9$us1$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi>, Topi Linkala says...

> So how do you keep it NetHack. I started a game of NetHack yesterday. I
> didn't save it until I had to go to bed.
>
> But during that gameplay I checked my mail aand read several usenet
> groups at least five times. Reading some usenet group led to internet
> surfing. Eivised one patch I'd made to NetHack and posted it. Prepared
> my dinner, watched some tv and went to my local for one beer and the
> newspapers.
>
> Could you do that in a multiplayer game? And if not would it be NetHack?

IMHO much of the Nethack pace could be retained by including good chat tools
(VoIP perhaps?), and easy ways to share information (inventories etc). Problems
can then be discussed at length between the party members rather than on Usenet
:) 

I'd describe it as a Nethack derivative rather than as Nethack.
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 6:18:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 8/26/05 7:34 AM, David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
>
>><damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>Quoting Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
>>>
>>>>Imagine if the monsters acted cooperatively.
>>>
>>>Every game you played, you'd be met at the downstairs by four minotaurs.
>>
>> Well, they'd certainly try. Hence my point about area effect
>>weapons coming into their own: lit potions of oil, scroll of
>>stinking cloud, skilled cone of cold, skilled fireball, spell
>>of cause fear, bouncing reflectable wand effects through a small
>>room or narrow corridor, etc.
>
> You don't have any of those things. You can't even light a potion of oil
> and throw it, because every game you play is going to last one turn.

It's not as dire as all that. After all, the monsters in the dungeon
don't have advanced warning that you're coming in. Even your example of
the four minotaurs at the downstairs presumes that someone is going to
phone downstairs and tell the welcoming committee to be expecting you.

--
Kevin Wayne

"Stark raving sane."
--Rosencrantz and Guildenstern
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 8:31:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kevin Wayne <killedbyafoo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>It's not as dire as all that. After all, the monsters in the dungeon
>don't have advanced warning that you're coming in. Even your example of
>the four minotaurs at the downstairs presumes that someone is going to
>phone downstairs and tell the welcoming committee to be expecting you.

Duty rota. After all, someone's going to come after the amulet sooner
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ meteorites are outta sight but this one's place is in outer space
\ / if you wanna know i'll tell you why it's cause radiation makes you die
\/ -- Zombina and the Skeletones, "Meteorite"
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 8:47:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

After going to <http://tinyurl.com/2tnqw&gt;
Andrew Kerr <andykerr@SPAMGUARD.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote

>In article <aeeng151amjq8vgmum48e47pf3h1ho7t8f@4ax.com>, Jove says...
>> This could be an exciting new direction for Nethack: not
>> multi-player, but multi-character.
>>
>If there were to be a new multi character roguelike, I'd like to see it multi
>player too. Teamwork and good old fashioned social interaction is fun.
>Obviously there are issues to resolve - turn taking, sharing info and items
>etc.

Some other "balance issues" I was thinking of:

Escaping to the planes
Offering the amulet
Having more than one of the same class on the quest (Who gets the quest reward)
Wishing for the quest reward of another class when they're in the game
Can new characters join the game that's been in progress for a while? (i.e. not
just started)

>wrt intelligent monsters - one solution is to use an expert system. There are
>systems designed for real time, including gaming, use. Expert systems allow
>human knowledge to be directly imparted to an AI, and can produce very
>impressive results.
>
>Example: CLIPS
>http://www.ghg.net/clips/CLIPS.html

I wouldn't mind seeing something that first stops this from happening:
(Anti-stupidity checks)

The gnome zaps a wand of magic missle! The magic missle hits the dwarf! --more--
The magic missle hits the dwarf! The magic missle hits the dwarf --more--
You are hit by the magic missle!

@ hhh G

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Anonymous
August 26, 2005 9:49:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

jerk-o wrote:
> I wouldn't mind seeing something that first stops this from happening:
> (Anti-stupidity checks)
>
> The gnome zaps a wand of magic missle! The magic missle hits the dwarf! --more--
> The magic missle hits the dwarf! The magic missle hits the dwarf --more--
> You are hit by the magic missle!
>
> @ hhh G

Or the even stupider variant, that I frequently see in Ludios:

Soldier at the back of the crowd gets his hands on a wand of
death or similar nasty combat wand, and zaps me with it, so the ray
kills several intervening friendlies, then bounces off my reflection
source (I never go into Ludios without reflection) and back into the
crowd, killing anyone it missed on the first pass, and leaving me
totally unscathed.

But that's not the really stupid part. Arguably, the soldier
couldn't expect that I'd have reflection. The *really* stupid part is
that, if the soldier with the wand didn't get caught by his own death
ray, he'll then *do it again*, even though he's just seen that it won't
accomplish anything but killing a bunch of his buddies. There are some
times that I think the soldiers kill more of each other than I actually
do.

--
John Campbell
jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com
!