trying a new early startegy

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In news:<1124684907.126013.320250@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
nonobots <jfcote@nonobots.com> says...
[...]
> The latest wizard found the entrance to sokoban, solved the first
[...]
> called VANISH tin. To top it off he already has telepathy, he knows
> there's an altar on level 6 and has heard complaints about shopkeepers
> on two levels.
[...]

In my alternate Nethack universe it's all complaints about poor
shoplifters, and noone dares to complain about the draconic shopkeepers.
I wish I could see yours.

/Kristoffer

--
This cookie has a scrap of paper inside. It reads:
Fbzrgvzrf "zh" vf gur nafjre.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Kristoffer Björkman wrote:
> nonobots wrote:
> > called VANISH tin. To top it off he already has telepathy, he knows there's
> > an altar on level 6 and has heard complaints about shopkeepers on two
> > levels.
>
> In my alternate Nethack universe it's all complaints about poor shoplifters,
> and noone dares to complain about the draconic shopkeepers. I wish I could
> see yours.

That would make lots more sense.

Well... we can always complain about the shopkeeper that opens a three
items
shop, hides it behind a secret passage and locks the door "for
inventory."

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

nonobots a écrit :

> For a couple of games now (mainly wizards and archeologists) I've been
> trying a new early strategy. For lack of a better name I call it the
> diving strategy. I only know one computer game in which you can still
> experiment with the opening moves after years and years of playing.
>
> It's pretty simple: I go down as soon as I see stairs - not bothering
> to finish exploring, and picking up everything I find. If the pet
> doesn't cooperate, it stays behind. Once I meet something too dangerous
> (often in between dungeon level 4 to 7) I go back up. the result is
> that I often find food, I have a good idea of what levels contain shops
> and I can plan accordingly. After that I usually just finish exploring,
> choose where my early stash is gonna be (general stores, location of
> the mines, altars and chests are considered) and I generally feel more
> in control. It somewhat feels like having a bigger starting inventory.
>
> I've run a dozen of divers, more than half wizards. At first I thought
> it would raise my early death. But I'm not so sure anymore. I flee from
> almost everything. And the initial monsters generated on a lot more
> dungeon levels are relative to a 1st level character. Sometimes I don't
> dive farther then level 3 because there's too much foxes or I start
> seeing large kobolds. But when it works it's spectacular!
>
> The latest wizard found the entrance to sokoban, solved the first
> level, then came back to dungeon level 1 to complete the exploration.
> the cat was left behind two levels before the oracle and picked up on
> the way back. He's now on the first stairs, experience level 3, he has
> one cram ration, 3 food rations, 2 crude daggers, a pickaxe and 1 wand
> called VANISH tin. To top it off he already has telepathy, he knows
> there's an altar on level 6 and has heard complaints about shopkeepers
> on two levels. The game would have been completely different without
> the dive strategy - there's was no special luck in the items he's
> found. It seemed like a pretty average dungeon, yet he's very well
> tooled up to begin his quest.

I've tried this kind of diving strategy with archeologist: just wield
the pick-axe and dig downward, don't care about my pet. That's pretty
much fast to go till the rogue level, which is undiggable, then try to
come up to 1. Well, no much success with this strategy, so far...

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

7aboir.kinoufo@ifrance.com wrote:
> nonobots a écrit :
>
> > It's pretty simple: I go down as soon as I see stairs - not bothering
> > to finish exploring, and picking up everything I find. If the pet
> > doesn't cooperate, it stays behind. Once I meet something too dangerous
> > (often in between dungeon level 4 to 7) I go back up.
>
> I've tried this kind of diving strategy with archeologist: just wield
> the pick-axe and dig downward, don't care about my pet. That's pretty
> much fast to go till the rogue level, which is undiggable, then try to
> come up to 1. Well, no much success with this strategy, so far...

Well it's way more extreme than what I'm doing. My way is pretty quick
and painless, I'm in fleeing mode and don't hesitate to come back to
level one as soon as I feel I'm in danger. Rogue level is way too deep
and too dangerous for a petless low level character.

Using the pickaxe also means you don't know how to come back. You have
to search for the stairs. I'm always using the stairs to make sure I
know the way back up.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Doug Freyburger wrote:

> Now *that* would be Nethack cruelty. A shopkeeper starts
> with a wand of polymorph and a ring of polymorph control
> because there are no checks on that combination and this
> is an alternate universe where monsters can get two
> random items not one. The shopkeeper zaps himself with
> an octagonal wand! The shopkeeper changes into a grey
> dragon! What you want to call an octagonal wand? You
> zap the shopkeeper with your wand of magic missiles! The
> magic missiles bounce! DYWYPI?

:-)

Luckily, shopkeepers don't start out with rings (perhaps they may get
one in the death drop). Jewelers excepted, of course, but they won't
risk damaging the merchandise.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me

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Kristoffer Björkman wrote:
> In news:<1124732686.830571.19550@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, Doug
> Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo.com> says...
> > nonobots wrote:
> > > For a couple of games now (mainly wizards and archeologists) I've been
> > > trying a new early strategy. For lack of a better name I call it the
> > > diving strategy. I only know one computer game in which you can still
> > > experiment with the opening moves after years and years of playing.
> > > It's pretty simple: I go down as soon as I see stairs [snip]
> >
> > I've read of this a few times over the years. I wonder if
> > the folks who developed the protection racket started with
> > it.
>
> Isn't this something almost everyone tries out? Isn't it very natural to
> get the random thought of "well, I wonder how far down I could go if I
> just tried to go fast and avoid trouble"?

It wasn't my reflex at all. I tend to completely explore each and every
levels. Tidying everything up in a neat pile next to the stairs before
going down. It was wizards dying of starvation that made me develop
this strategy. It didn't come naturally. If there's something my early
games thaught me it was "The farther you go the deader you get" so I
ended up doing the game at a very slow pace.

This strategy is very refreshing to me.

> For many years after downloading and starting to play Nethack I didn't
> know any other person who played it and all I knew was the Guidebook and
> some extremely lousy source-reading. It didn't take long for me to try
> 'diving', and think the same goes for most players, unless they are
> extremely character-poreserving and don't want to take risks with one
> character to learn something for the next one, or even get lucky with
> what they find and have a good start. The idea that this would also
> generate more easy monsters thanks to my low level was also something
> that would motivate me to do it, but I wasn't (/am not) at all sure that
> there actually is some benefit from this.

I guess I'm one of the character-preserving-person you describe. Too
bad it doesn't really mean better character survival.

> > I consider it a high risk strategy because encountering a
> > swarm of orcs is often fatal if you have not advanced levels
> > quickly enough.

Leveling up will make them appear sooner. In the real early game I tend
to think less in terms of hit points and resilience and firepower and
more in terms of sneaking around or running away. Everything is a
threat! Except yummy newts and lichens.

> With retreat as your first option, and Elbereth as backup, it's very low
> risk imho. It just depends on how well you can hold on to that low risk
> strategy. I think the actual killer is usually not an unavoidable
> situation, but very often an overconfident/curious/careless playing
> style. Just like with other styles of Nethacking.

Swarms of orcs are definitely one of those "uh oh, time to track back"
moments. They're not that early if you stay 1st or 2nd experience
level. For anything that can throw daggers I don't consider Elbereth an
option. Retreat is the first option. I can think of a couple ways for a
starting character to survive the encounter, but they all depend on
inventory and context. (lock them up, dig around, put them to sleep,
etc.)

> I remember encountering my first vampires, trolls, etc, due to this
> strategy, which gave me useful knowledge for the next time I reached
> those levels with a character in a better position to take up a fight.
> Sometimes it would be the same character, who managed to retreat and get
> prepared for the return.

That's another advantage of the diving strategy. You plan according to
a real threat. You come back only when you have a plan. This is true of
any danger you flee from in any game, but the diving character ALWAYS
end up fleeing from something (oh yeah, and dead, he can end up dead
too).

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

anon wrote:
> nonobots <jfcote@nonobots.com> wrote:
>
> > It's pretty simple: I go down as soon as I see stairs - not bothering
> > to finish exploring, and picking up everything I find. If the pet
> > doesn't cooperate, it stays behind. Once I meet something too dangerous
> > (often in between dungeon level 4 to 7) I go back up. the result is
> > that I often find food, I have a good idea of what levels contain shops
> > and I can plan accordingly. After that I usually just finish exploring,
> > choose where my early stash is gonna be (general stores, location of
> > the mines, altars and chests are considered) and I generally feel more
> > in control. It somewhat feels like having a bigger starting inventory.
> >
> I'm afraid I don't see the difference between exploring a level
> completely, and exploring it partially. You are still exploring in the
> latter case, only on a lower (and hence more dangerous) level.

The difference for me is very clear. I used to carefully explore every
nook and cranny until I was sure I didn't miss a thing - slowly going
down. Now the priority is going the deepest possible without risking
too much. And once something too big to handle is found going back up
and planning according to what I found. Usually I kind of start over:
exploring every nook and cranny slowly going down. But with better
knowledge and often a couple of useful items.

> Anyway, I usually don't go lower than level 5 until I've levelled up a
> bit; I believe 6 is where you start seeing some serious threats like
> soldier ants and killer bees.

I could be wrong but I think the number used for monster generation is
your XP level plus the dungeon level. So a level 5 character on dungeon
level one would get the same monster as a level one character on
dungeon level 5. It might be more complex than that, but it seems to
fit my experience.

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nonobots wrote:
> The latest wizard found the entrance to sokoban, solved the first
> level, then came back to dungeon level 1 to complete the exploration.
> the cat was left behind two levels before the oracle and picked up on
> the way back. He's now on the first stairs, experience level 3, he has
> one cram ration, 3 food rations, 2 crude daggers, a pickaxe and 1 wand
> called VANISH tin. To top it off he already has telepathy, he knows
> there's an altar on level 6 and has heard complaints about shopkeepers
> on two levels. The game would have been completely different without
> the dive strategy - there's was no special luck in the items he's
> found. It seemed like a pretty average dungeon, yet he's very well
> tooled up to begin his quest.

The wizard died #dipping potions of object detections in fountains to
make water. A mean water demon was summoned. Just as a pack of elves
showed up. The elves were blocking the only way out. I had a ring of
teleport but nothing else to flee. (my error was leaving a wand of
digging at the stash) The teleportation didn't kick in in time. The tin
wand turned out to be teleport but was emptied on fire ants and other
nasties. I now have a somewhat nasty bone file on dungeon level 7.

The diving strategy really paid off in this game. A lot of back and
forth between the two stores and the altar allowed the identification
of many things before the first levels were completely explored. The
death was unrelated to the diving strategy and came later.

Level 4 or 5 was a bone file. This makes me realise that bones might be
a disadvantage to the diving character. Going down and up like that can
make you load up bone files you don't take advantage of. Imagine this
wizard died on his exploration phase. The bone file would have been
completely wasted. It works both way. You can miss good bones files
like that, but you can also stumble way too early on a bone file you
could have solved on a normal progression - just like the one I just
created. Hearse users could have a hard time diving far.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 23 Aug 2005 11:45:35 -0700, "nonobots" <jfcote@nonobots.com>
wrote:

>nonobots wrote:
>> The latest wizard found the entrance to sokoban, solved the first
>> level, then came back to dungeon level 1 to complete the exploration.
>> the cat was left behind two levels before the oracle and picked up on
>> the way back. He's now on the first stairs, experience level 3, he has
>> one cram ration, 3 food rations, 2 crude daggers, a pickaxe and 1 wand
>> called VANISH tin. To top it off he already has telepathy, he knows
>> there's an altar on level 6 and has heard complaints about shopkeepers
>> on two levels. The game would have been completely different without
>> the dive strategy - there's was no special luck in the items he's
>> found. It seemed like a pretty average dungeon, yet he's very well
>> tooled up to begin his quest.
>
>The wizard died #dipping potions of object detections in fountains to
>make water. A mean water demon was summoned. Just as a pack of elves
>showed up. The elves were blocking the only way out. I had a ring of
>teleport but nothing else to flee. (my error was leaving a wand of
>digging at the stash) The teleportation didn't kick in in time.

Won't ^T initiate a random teleport you if you're wearing a
ring of teleportation?


--
All the best,

Jove

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:
> On 23 Aug 2005 11:45:35 -0700, "nonobots" <jfcote@nonobots.com>
> wrote:
> >The wizard died #dipping potions of object detections in fountains to
> >make water. A mean water demon was summoned. Just as a pack of elves
> >showed up. The elves were blocking the only way out. I had a ring of
> >teleport but nothing else to flee. (my error was leaving a wand of
> >digging at the stash) The teleportation didn't kick in in time.
>
> Won't ^T initiate a random teleport you if you're wearing a
> ring of teleportation?
>

Oh! Does it? I think I never tried that. I use ^T only when my teleport
is controlled. I will sure check this out. I'm getting pretty goos with
the game. Three ascensions now. But I sure have lots to learn still.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Won't ^T initiate a random teleport you if you're wearing a
>ring of teleportation?

Only if you are of sufficiently high level. (8 for wizards, 12 for
everyone else).
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ meteorites are outta sight but this one's place is in outer space
\ / if you wanna know i'll tell you why it's cause radiation makes you die
\/ -- Zombina and the Skeletones, "Meteorite"

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Jove wrote:
> Martin Read wrote:
>> Jove wrote:

>>> Won't ^T initiate a random teleport you if you're wearing a
>>> ring of teleportation?

>> Only if you are of sufficiently high level. (8 for wizards, 12 for
>> everyone else).

> Is that what I've seen referred to as teleport control?

No. It's called teleport at will. Teleport control is only granted to
wizards, at reaching EXP level 17, as you mentioned.

> Is that documented in a spoiler somewhere? It seems familiar
> but that may just be from posts here on rgrn.

Not that I know of.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me