Finally, I deliberately cursed something!

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

As a lousy player who did never go very far in the game, it was
always frustrating for me to see messages concerning unholy water
and how it was a precious ressource: I had never ever gotten to
a point where I would like to have unholy water, and had moreover
much trouble getting any kind of water to make holy water.

In my current game I had found unholy water and stored it in my
stash just in case, and yesterday I finally found a (an?) use
for it: cursing my zillions uncursed teleport scroll which I don't
need because I have teleportis (and teleport control, which is
nice). Now I feel I'm getting somewhere with this game at last!

By the way, I had the same kind of frustrations with most
conducts: "Ascend wishless?! What the hell! I'd love to make
a wish but cannot find any way to make one!", and the same
when people mentioned refraining from genociding monsters,
when I had perhaps seen and identified three scrolls of genocide
in my entire nethack history.
This game is also an end to this frustration: this is the first
game where I have succeeded in _breaking_ all conducts: I changed
form (gaining two silver dragon sons in the process), used four
wishes, and genocided 14 types of monsters (that's all c, L and
h). All other conducts are easy to break.

Maybe at some time in the future I will be concerned with conducts,
but right now this feels so good!
21 answers Last reply
More about finally deliberately cursed something
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
    > chlorine wrote:
    >
    > > In my current game I had found unholy water and stored it in my
    > > stash just in case, and yesterday I finally found a (an?) use
    > > for it: cursing my zillions uncursed teleport scroll which I don't
    > > need because I have teleportis (and teleport control, which is
    > > nice). Now I feel I'm getting somewhere with this game at last!
    >
    > Did you remember to make *more* potions before using up the last one,
    > just like you should with holy water?

    In this case this was not necessary, as actually I found two
    potions of unholy water. The other one is safely in my stash.
    I plan to go one more time at my stash before going to see
    Rodney, I will make more unholy water then.

    >
    > > By the way, I had the same kind of frustrations with most
    > > conducts: "Ascend wishless?! What the hell! I'd love to make
    > > a wish but cannot find any way to make one!"
    >
    > Well, if you cannot get a wish, wishless conduct is easy.

    Well, yes, but unless you consider dying instead of ascending as
    a conduct, there's not much point in dying while following
    any given conduct. ;)

    >
    > [ And yes, it is "a use", not "an use": it's not how you write it,
    > but how you pronounce it. ]

    Yes, I thought so, but my problem is that I'm much more used
    to written english than spoken english, so this type of rules
    are hard for me to use.

    chlorine.
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    chlorine wrote:

    > In my current game I had found unholy water and stored it in my
    > stash just in case, and yesterday I finally found a (an?) use
    > for it: cursing my zillions uncursed teleport scroll which I don't
    > need because I have teleportis (and teleport control, which is
    > nice). Now I feel I'm getting somewhere with this game at last!

    Did you remember to make *more* potions before using up the last one,
    just like you should with holy water?

    > By the way, I had the same kind of frustrations with most
    > conducts: "Ascend wishless?! What the hell! I'd love to make
    > a wish but cannot find any way to make one!"

    Well, if you cannot get a wish, wishless conduct is easy.

    > Maybe at some time in the future I will be concerned with conducts,
    > but right now this feels so good!

    Way to go, girl!

    --
    Boudewijn.

    [ And yes, it is "a use", not "an use": it's not how you write it,
    but how you pronounce it. ]
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    In article <1124964714.707932.191430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, chlorine
    says...

    > I plan to go one more time at my stash before going to see
    > Rodney, I will make more unholy water then.

    You're at much the same point as I am then. My Priest is at the bottom of
    Gehennom, and will also travel back up once more before force feeding Rodney
    one of my cockatrice eggs :) I'm hoping I'll be able to make YAFAP soon.

    Did you ever manage to find yourself a new artifact weapon, or a stack of
    silver daggers?
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    In article <1124958009.924623.157210@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, chlorine
    says...
    > (gaining two silver dragon sons in the process)
    >

    A little slow here, but I just thought of another combat strategy you could
    pursue without the Eye or an artifact weapon, or a shield.

    Saddle up one of your dragons (or tame something else), pick a nice polearm
    from Ludios/Castle, and #ride. Polearms do normal melee damage whilst riding,
    and can still be #applied at range. The extra carrying capacity should cover
    the weight of a bardiche or halberd, which are amongst the most damaging non
    artifacts. Spetums and ranseurs are lighter and still do decent damage.

    Cast Light when you see a nasty approaching in order to hit it at range. Make
    sure both you and mount are invisible.

    Wizards can get to Basic in Riding and Skilled in Polearms. Wearing riding
    gloves and boots (unless Fumbling :) whilst mounting helps as does high
    charisma.

    A few potential problems:

    # Keep mount fed. AFAICS a mount will always finish a meal in one turn.

    # Keep it tame. Mounting by a non Knight reduces tameness.

    # Keep polearm non cursed or you won't be able to cast spells. This would
    probably be a bad thing for a Wizard. Bless it and keep !oHW or ?oRC handy.

    # Teleporting will, I assume, unmount you.
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Andrew Kerr wrote:
    > A few potential problems:
    >
    > # Keep mount fed. AFAICS a mount will always finish a meal in one turn.

    Mounts will commonly get the food before you can; more of a problem is
    saving the important corpses (wraiths, giants) for yourself.

    > # Keep it tame. Mounting by a non Knight reduces tameness.

    If it eats, it will be tame. Eating increases a pet's tameness.
    Non-eating steeds (Ki-Rin and maybe a few other) or vegetarian steeds
    (horses) will have a problem here.

    >
    > # Keep polearm non cursed or you won't be able to cast spells. This would
    > probably be a bad thing for a Wizard. Bless it and keep !oHW or ?oRC handy.
    >
    Consider using daggers as well after you reach basic in Riding (so you
    can pick them up).

    > # Teleporting will, I assume, unmount you.

    It will not. Much like falling through a hole with pets next to you, the
    mount will come with you. When mounted you're actually considered a
    single creature in most cases.

    Levitation will unmount you though.
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:17:05 -0500, Andy Johnson
    <swervy.a@take-this.out.gmail.com> wrote:

    >Andrew Kerr wrote:
    >> A few potential problems:
    >>
    >> # Keep mount fed. AFAICS a mount will always finish a meal in one turn.
    >
    >Mounts will commonly get the food before you can; more of a problem is
    >saving the important corpses (wraiths, giants) for yourself.
    >
    >> # Keep it tame. Mounting by a non Knight reduces tameness.
    >
    >If it eats, it will be tame. Eating increases a pet's tameness.
    >Non-eating steeds (Ki-Rin and maybe a few other) or vegetarian steeds
    >(horses) will have a problem here.

    Horse eat food rations when hungry enough. #pung gb lbhe ubefr
    naq vs vg juvaalf, qebc n sbbq engvba.

    Spell of charm monster helpful otherwise.

    >
    >>
    >> # Keep polearm non cursed or you won't be able to cast spells. This would
    >> probably be a bad thing for a Wizard. Bless it and keep !oHW or ?oRC handy.
    >>
    >Consider using daggers as well after you reach basic in Riding (so you
    >can pick them up).

    If the original poster does all this, it would be interesting
    to hear their opinion on the relative values of polearms and
    daggers when mounted. (The cursed polearm problem is serious for
    a wizard in that the spell of remove curse then can't be cast.)

    Daggers have more range, but need to be picked up (as the
    previous poster pointed out.) Dagger skill is probably already
    high and skill slots may not be available for polearms.
    The original poster may already have used up scrolls of enchant
    weapon on their dagger stack with none left to enchant the
    polearm.

    Polearms can reach past adjacent monsters and over water/traps.
    Conditions that could make dagger recovery problematic.


    >
    >> # Teleporting will, I assume, unmount you.
    >
    >It will not. Much like falling through a hole with pets next to you, the
    >mount will come with you. When mounted you're actually considered a
    >single creature in most cases.
    >
    >Levitation will unmount you though.

    #A cursed saddle will prevent you from dismounting.

    Spell of knock or wand of opening directed downward ">" will
    dismount you and remove the saddle from your mount. Wand or
    spell of cancellation *may* uncurse the saddle, at the cost of
    canceling your mount (Subject to possible magical resistance
    on the part of the steed). I say may because I've never done it
    myself.


    --
    All the best,

    Jove
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Andrew Kerr wrote:
    > In article <1124964714.707932.191430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, chlorine
    > says...
    >
    > > I plan to go one more time at my stash before going to see
    > > Rodney, I will make more unholy water then.
    >
    > You're at much the same point as I am then. My Priest is at the bottom of
    > Gehennom, and will also travel back up once more before force feeding Rodney
    > one of my cockatrice eggs :) I'm hoping I'll be able to make YAFAP soon.

    Hey, that would be cool if we YAFAP'ed at the same time! A priest for
    a first ascension would be nice also, I don't think there are that many
    of them.
    I finished Vlad yesterday evening, and have got back to the final
    visit at my stash and altar. I think I will finally finish this game
    one way or another this week-end.

    >
    > Did you ever manage to find yourself a new artifact weapon, or a stack of
    > silver daggers?

    I did get another artifact weapon after quite some time, but it
    was Dragonbane (sigh). I was pretty disappointed, so I gave up
    sacrificing for artifacts and enchanted Dragonbane. It seems to make
    a little more damage than Sting so I'm using it. Since I hit
    every time it doesn't seem the fact that I'm only basic for broadsword
    doesn't matter.
    Anyway I'm glad I didn't hang around trying to get another weapon
    after that, because afterwards when I was sacrificing for praying
    I got another gift, and it was Ogresmasher...

    I didn't wish for silver daggers and don't think I will finally:
    I was saving my wishes (I still have four of them), and nothing I
    met in Gehennom gave me much trouble, and I think it's only demons
    that hate silver so I won't need silver daggers in the future
    I think.

    chlorine
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Andrew Kerr wrote:
    > In article <1124958009.924623.157210@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, chlorine
    > says...
    > > (gaining two silver dragon sons in the process)
    > >
    >
    > A little slow here, but I just thought of another combat strategy you could
    > pursue without the Eye or an artifact weapon, or a shield.
    >
    > Saddle up one of your dragons (or tame something else), pick a nice polearm
    > from Ludios/Castle, and #ride. Polearms do normal melee damage whilst riding,
    > and can still be #applied at range. The extra carrying capacity should cover
    > the weight of a bardiche or halberd, which are amongst the most damaging non
    > artifacts. Spetums and ranseurs are lighter and still do decent damage.

    Well, that's something I wouldn't have thought of! Although for
    the time being I have no more pet dragons (one ate a doppleganger
    corpse and turned into a fire ant and was later killed, and the other
    I lost on a teleport level trap in gehennom just before the last level,
    I didn't even try to go and find him again, maybe I'll try to tame
    him on my way back up with the amulet).
    But I was considering polymorphing into a dragon and laying more eggs,
    so...

    But I want to ask, what is the use of riding if my polearm will do
    normal melee damage? Does it do lesser than normal if I'm not
    riding?

    chlorine
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    In article <1125051687.788133.5540@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, chlorine
    says...
    > But I want to ask, what is the use of riding if my polearm will do
    > normal melee damage? Does it do lesser than normal if I'm not
    > riding?
    >
    >
    If you're not riding they do a stunning d2 damage in melee, and need to be
    #applied at range to do proper damage. When riding they do the same damage
    whether melee or ranged.

    Another weapon option you may have is a battleaxe. Loads of damage, and Wizards
    can get to Skilled. Two handed again though.
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    In article <1125039116.932774.206540@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, chlorine
    says...
    > Hey, that would be cool if we YAFAP'ed at the same time! A priest for
    > a first ascension would be nice also, I don't think there are that many
    > of them.
    >
    Sadly a combination of forgetting to put gloves back on and playing with a
    cockatrice had unfortunate consequences for my Priest in the VotD.

    I wish you the best of luck with your run.
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    chlorine wrote:
    >
    > > Did you ever manage to find yourself a new artifact weapon, or a stack of
    > > silver daggers?
    > ...
    > I didn't wish for silver daggers and don't think I will finally:
    > I was saving my wishes (I still have four of them), and nothing I
    > met in Gehennom gave me much trouble, and I think it's only demons
    > that hate silver so I won't need silver daggers in the future
    > I think.

    There are more types of silver-hating monsters than demons.
    Vampires and such. Yet another reason why combat wombat
    folks like to use a silver saber as they secondary weapon
    while #twoweapong-ing.

    When I polypile I do extract all silver daggers. I never
    seem to get a large stack but if I ever get 10+ I'll consider
    replacing my quiver of elven dagger.
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Martin Read wrote:
    > Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >
    > >There are more types of silver-hating monsters than demons.
    >
    > Demons, however, are the only ones who might be a meaningful threat to a
    > high-level character. Vlad The Impaler is wet and a weed.

    When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
    are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
    watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
    A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
    encounters with V's. The topic was silver daggers not
    silver sabers, but silver daggers are as rare as stilletos
    while silver sabers eventually become common items.
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    "Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >There are more types of silver-hating monsters than demons.

    Demons, however, are the only ones who might be a meaningful threat to a
    high-level character. Vlad The Impaler is wet and a weed.

    (SLASH'EM, of course, has vampires that *are* dangerous to high-level
    characters.)
    --
    Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
    \_\/_/ meteorites are outta sight but this one's place is in outer space
    \ / if you wanna know i'll tell you why it's cause radiation makes you die
    \/ -- Zombina and the Skeletones, "Meteorite"
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    "Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
    >are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
    >watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
    >A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
    >encounters with V's.

    Characters who've reached mines end should have either MC3 and a good
    AC, or some means of dishing out substantial damage, particularly if
    they're high enough level to be meeting vampires at mines end other
    than as a result of the one mines end variant that has hard-wired
    vampires.

    Vampires (threat rating 12 frequency 1) have 10-80 hit points (average
    45), AC 1, speed 12 ("normal" speed), and two attacks. The first attack
    does 1d6 damage; the second does 1d6 damage and attempts to drain a level
    of experience. The level drain happens one hit in three on average,
    and is affected by the player's magic cancellation level.

    A combat-wombat should have negative AC and MC3; most (all?) of them
    will also be Fast. Knights and lawful Valkyries should have Excalibur,
    as will some Samurai.

    A Wizard should have MC3 and force bolts that do 5d6 damage per hit.

    A Priest should have either MC3 and negative AC, or an attack spell
    doing 5d6 damage per hit.

    Now, consider the leocrotta (threat rating 8 frequency 2). 6-48 hit
    points (average 27), speed 18 (faster than a "Fast" player), and three
    attacks each doing 2d6 damage.

    I know which *I'd* rather meet with a tenth-level character who's
    reached mines end. Incoveniently, it's the less common of the two
    monsters.

    Of course, if you've managed by luck or judgment to obtain a blessed or
    uncursed athame at this point, leocrottas (and vampires who don't have
    any ranged attack items) can trivially be made completely harmless.

    >The topic was silver daggers not
    >silver sabers, but silver daggers are as rare as stilletos
    >while silver sabers eventually become common items.

    That's partly because being able to readily obtain large numbers of
    silver daggers would make the game too easy.
    --
    Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
    \_\/_/ meteorites are outta sight but this one's place is in outer space
    \ / if you wanna know i'll tell you why it's cause radiation makes you die
    \/ -- Zombina and the Skeletones, "Meteorite"
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 30 Aug 2005 14:33:29 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
    <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

    >"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >>When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
    >>are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
    >>watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
    >>A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
    >>encounters with V's.
    >

    <snipped excellent discussion of threat of vampires to
    characters who reach Mines End>

    I felt myself that Vampires were never much of a threat
    to my Wizards at Mines End. That didn't mean that was
    true for other players and I didn't have it on the sound
    basis you expounded so well.

    Still, I wonder if there's something in Doug's playing
    style that causes Vampires to be more danger to him
    at that point. (Of course, he may just want a silver
    saber and any excuse will do. :-)

    >
    >>The topic was silver daggers not
    >>silver sabers, but silver daggers are as rare as stilletos
    >>while silver sabers eventually become common items.
    >
    >That's partly because being able to readily obtain large numbers of
    >silver daggers would make the game too easy.

    Could you expand on that please? Rogues with their dagger
    skills and #twoweaponing maybe. But a silver dagger does the
    same damage as a regular dagger (to non silver-haters).

    All daggers do the same damage to large monsters. Elven
    daggers average 0.5 more hitpoints damage to small monsters
    than daggers, athames, and silver daggers, IIRC.

    So the silver daggers would be great for silver-hating
    monsters. Even an unskilled character can throw one silver
    dagger per turn. But most silver-hating monsters will be
    met in the VotD, where the crowd makes recovering thrown
    daggers a problem. Or they'll be in Gehennom itself, where
    the mazes make ranged attacks difficult, and recovery in a
    crowd is even more of a problem.

    For #two-weaponing, a silver saber would be preferred over
    a silver dagger as often as not. But no one claims silver
    sabers make the game too easy.

    And as your post pointed out, Vampires should not be that
    big a deal once a character has reached Mines End, so what
    is the threat that a silver dagger would make too easy that
    a silver saber does not? A threat that a character at the
    normal level for meeting that threat would have trouble with.


    --
    All the best,

    Jove
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    In article <p7s9h1tk91c8o6ktrqea16fhjg59hc1i6s@4ax.com>, Jove says...
    > On 30 Aug 2005 14:33:29 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
    > <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
    >
    > >"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > >>When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
    > >>are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
    > >>watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
    > >>A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
    > >>encounters with V's.
    > >
    >
    > <snipped excellent discussion of threat of vampires to
    > characters who reach Mines End>
    >
    > I felt myself that Vampires were never much of a threat
    > to my Wizards at Mines End. That didn't mean that was
    > true for other players and I didn't have it on the sound
    > basis you expounded so well.

    They are a threat to pets. A Knight I had a few weeks ago rode into Mine's
    End on a baby dragon. Half the Vs' attacks went to the pet. The lance
    promptly snapped, and the Knight perished soon after.

    > >That's partly because being able to readily obtain large numbers of
    > >silver daggers would make the game too easy.
    >
    > Could you expand on that please? Rogues with their dagger
    > skills and #twoweaponing maybe. But a silver dagger does the
    > same damage as a regular dagger (to non silver-haters).

    d3 thrown daggers would have an expected damage for one move greater than
    Grayswandir (I can't be bothered to do the maths though). Ro and Ra can
    throw d4.

    A demon prince would likely run (or die) immediately after being hit,
    allowing the character to pick the weapons up.

    In the absence of an artifact, silver daggers make a better primary weapon
    than silver sabres in twoweapon, as they have a +2 hit bonus.

    Wishing for 3 silver daggers at the Castle would IMHO be a decent idea for
    an Expert dagger thrower. One dagger is useful for melee, 3 is a full one
    volley quiver. A Ranger, and maybe others, would be better off with 20
    (guaranteed) silver arrows though.
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:16:10 GMT, Andrew Kerr
    <andykerr@SPAMGUARD.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

    >In article <p7s9h1tk91c8o6ktrqea16fhjg59hc1i6s@4ax.com>, Jove says...
    >> On 30 Aug 2005 14:33:29 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
    >> <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
    >>
    >> >"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >> >>When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
    >> >>are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
    >> >>watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
    >> >>A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
    >> >>encounters with V's.
    >> >
    >>
    >> <snipped excellent discussion of threat of vampires to
    >> characters who reach Mines End>
    >>
    >> I felt myself that Vampires were never much of a threat
    >> to my Wizards at Mines End. That didn't mean that was
    >> true for other players and I didn't have it on the sound
    >> basis you expounded so well.
    >
    >They are a threat to pets. A Knight I had a few weeks ago rode into Mine's
    >End on a baby dragon. Half the Vs' attacks went to the pet. The lance
    >promptly snapped, and the Knight perished soon after.
    >
    Were you #jumping? What other alternative tactics could have
    been tried? Not riding? Silver saber as backup weapon?

    >> >That's partly because being able to readily obtain large numbers of
    >> >silver daggers would make the game too easy.
    >>
    >> Could you expand on that please? Rogues with their dagger
    >> skills and #twoweaponing maybe. But a silver dagger does the
    >> same damage as a regular dagger (to non silver-haters).
    >
    >d3 thrown daggers would have an expected damage for one move greater than
    >Grayswandir (I can't be bothered to do the maths though). Ro and Ra can
    >throw d4.
    >
    >A demon prince would likely run (or die) immediately after being hit,
    >allowing the character to pick the weapons up.
    >
    >In the absence of an artifact, silver daggers make a better primary weapon
    >than silver sabres in twoweapon, as they have a +2 hit bonus.

    Or an ordinary dagger, with the silver saber as the second
    weapon?

    >
    >Wishing for 3 silver daggers at the Castle would IMHO be a decent idea for
    >an Expert dagger thrower. One dagger is useful for melee, 3 is a full one
    >volley quiver. A Ranger, and maybe others, would be better off with 20
    >(guaranteed) silver arrows though.

    Interesting points. As a high-level wizard with the polymorph
    spell I've several times gotten a stack of ten or so +7 blessed
    silver daggers (named SilverStorm, for style :-).

    Magic missile at exp level 30 still killed silver-haters faster
    than throwing d3 +7 blessed silver daggers at Expert dagger
    skill. That was important to me then because I hated seeing
    vampires wasting *my* !oFH by drinking them when I was going to
    kill them no matter what.

    I tried the silver daggers because I love the message about
    silver seared flesh. I've used a silver saber for the same
    reason, as a wizard. Neither one seemed worth it.

    Demon princes can be better handled via bribery though, if
    they're a concern. (For Juiblex, substitute the wand of digging
    trick.) Or Elbereth, if you overestimate your chances and don't
    bribe them.

    Daggers are under-used in the game, perhaps plentiful silver
    daggers would change that some. They still seem too much of a
    specialty weapon to use a wish on.

    (Players still don't seem to throw rocks when appropriate
    and rocks can usually easily be found when needed.)

    It would be interesting if the probability of silver daggers
    could be varied. Nethack servers could compete: "We have ten
    times as many silver daggers." Three games later you find your
    first one, just before you die anyway.

    My wizards would still end up with an unused "vanity" stack.

    And still, large numbers of silver daggers would only make the
    game significantly easier against silver-haters for classes that
    can get dagger to Expert. (And you can't really count wizards
    in that because magic missile is still better than a stack of
    silver daggers.)

    Would that really make that much difference overall?

    --
    All the best,

    Jove
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    In article <t34ah196mvc5lccju0vgq64fruhussli1o@4ax.com>, Jove
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> says...

    >On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:16:10 GMT, Andrew Kerr
    ><andykerr@SPAMGUARD.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
    > >They are a threat to pets. A Knight I had a few weeks ago rode into Mine's
    > >End on a baby dragon. Half the Vs' attacks went to the pet. The lance
    > >promptly snapped, and the Knight perished soon after.
    > Were you #jumping? What other alternative tactics could have
    > been tried? Not riding? Silver saber as backup weapon?

    Mostly I should have tried "paying attention to the HP level". I wasn't
    really trying in that game. I'll go back to Knights after I've ascended
    this Priest.

    > And still, large numbers of silver daggers would only make the
    > game significantly easier against silver-haters for classes that
    > can get dagger to Expert. (And you can't really count wizards
    > in that because magic missile is still better than a stack of
    > silver daggers.)

    Rogue, Tourist and Valkyrie can all get to Expert in dagger and at most
    Basic in bow.
  19. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove wrote:
    > > Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >
    > >>When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
    > >>are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
    > >>watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
    > >>A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
    > >>encounters with V's.
    >
    > <snipped excellent discussion of threat of vampires to
    > characters who reach Mines End>

    My simplistic view as that the V's on the variant of
    mine town are monsters somewhat out of depth. They
    are stronger than most other monsters on that level
    and thus a "serious danger". Overly simplistic.

    > I felt myself that Vampires were never much of a threat
    > to my Wizards at Mines End. That didn't mean that was
    > true for other players and I didn't have it on the sound
    > basis you expounded so well.
    >
    > Still, I wonder if there's something in Doug's playing
    > style that causes Vampires to be more danger to him
    > at that point. (Of course, he may just want a silver
    > saber and any excuse will do. :-)

    Good point. While in the mines my wizards will burn all
    of their mana doing altar camping and then go exploring
    when they run out only to return recharged. If I explore
    a level at a time I'll end up doing a beeline from stairs
    to stairs or even teleport from stairs to stairs on my
    way down to a new level. This can mean I'm very low on
    attack spells while exploring levels between mine town
    and mines end.

    The reason I value silver saber more while exploring
    below mine town is this poor strategy. Thanks for the
    training. In subsequent wizards I will adjust
    accordingly. It likely would not be an issue for any
    wizard who hasn't learned "create monster" spell yet
    either.

    There's a much less important reason that I hesitate
    to blast away wildly with my most powerfull attack
    spell when first arriving at mines end. It's dark and
    I don't want to blast nymphs in a way that breaks
    their mirrors (mirrors are too value for controlling
    luck and too risky when you don't know you changed
    your luck). I also don't want to smash whatever
    potions or whatever in the vicinity.

    My most recent wizard to reach mines end emerged in
    a crowd. A couple of V's, a couple of D's where one
    turned out to be an adult (polymorph trap on level)
    were in the crowd. I whacked a few monsters, got
    down to half of my hit points, retreated up a few
    levels to rest. Went back down again, whacked some
    more and so on. I only blasted with my best attack
    spell after clearing out most of the crowd. Lesson
    learned - explore fully charged and Zap away like
    crazy. Don't burn it all on altar camping until I'm
    on the way back *up* out of the mines.
  20. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 1 Sep 2005 13:28:06 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
    <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >Jove wrote:
    >> > Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >>
    >> >>When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
    >> >>are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
    >> >>watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
    >> >>A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
    >> >>encounters with V's.
    >>
    >> <snipped excellent discussion of threat of vampires to
    >> characters who reach Mines End>
    >
    >My simplistic view as that the V's on the variant of
    >mine town are monsters somewhat out of depth. They
    >are stronger than most other monsters on that level
    >and thus a "serious danger". Overly simplistic.
    >

    Overly simplistic perhaps, still accurate. Especially
    for those without MC###. Up to Mine's End I'm still playing a
    combat wombat -

    - tedious armor testing,
    - much shifting of armor for spellcasting when not in combat.
    (I found +4 elven mithril. I wore it.)
    - enhancing strength (Sokoban)
    - max #enhancing dagger skill
    - getting a lot of price-identified daggers.
    3-5 +3/4 daggers or 7-9 daggers in general let a wizard
    handle just about any single monster that he can see coming.
    (I was amazed the first time a captain of the Mine Town guard
    fell to thrown daggers before he got to melee range.)
    - casting light strategically (if I'm lucky enough to have it.)
    Lighting up large dark areas let's you see what's coming.
    (A poor man's version of skilled detect monsters.)
    - advancing character levels (more Hp & Pwr). Yes, it makes
    divine protection more expensive. But, if you survive,
    you're pretty much guaranteed to be able to buy divine
    protection down to +1 naked AC. (And I usually end up
    buying it twice.)


    Daggers are way under used by players as ranged weapons.
    (Heck, *rocks* are way under used by players as ranged weapons.)
    Especially in those classes that can advance the skill. Yes,
    by late mid-game for a wizard they're almost completely
    overshadowed by spells, but daggers help *get* you to the point
    that they're no longer useful. (Thank Anhur the DevTeam made
    Magicbane a dagger skill.)


    Back to Vampires at Mine's End, they do seem a bit out of
    level. Here's a thought on why: Delayed protection racket.
    Arrange for a vampire to take you down a few levels to make
    buying divine protection cheaper. Maybe only purchase once before
    vampiring?

    Gehennom, think of the spell of drain life! (I think it's
    showed up that early before.) Or Stormbringer, of course.

    And why stop at losing levels to make protection cheaper?
    Hp and Pwr gained when leveling up depend on Con and Wis.
    Even without rings of gain constitution or enchanted HoB
    by Mine's End Con and Wis should be higher (maybe a lot higher)
    than their starting values.

    Blessed potions of gain ability and enlightenment anyone? And
    I believe a cheap way of gaining Wisdom is to blind yourself and
    then search with peacefuls/pets around. Doesn't wisdom get
    exercised every time you find something while searching?

    So let a vampire take you down a few levels, then run away.
    Put on your rings of +Con & enchanted HoB. Run back to the
    priest (here your idea of teleporting between up/down stairs
    looks *real* good). Buy cheaper protection. Start killing
    again.


    The nasty question is how far down to go? The lower the
    cheaper, and the lower the quicker you'll gain back the next
    few levels. But also the lower the more danger you'll be in.
    A nice challenge for those who want more excitement in their
    games of Nethack.

    Of course with Stormbringer or the spell of drain level
    you never need to leave the Mine Town temple. If it's a
    co-aligned temple you've got it made. Just zap passing monsters
    with force bolt, etc. when you're ready to gain levels again.

    (NB. This technique can also be used *at any time in the game*
    to correct mis-allocated skill levels while #enhancing.)

    (Who needs grape jelly?)

    >> I felt myself that Vampires were never much of a threat
    >> to my Wizards at Mines End. That didn't mean that was
    >> true for other players and I didn't have it on the sound
    >> basis you expounded so well.
    >>
    >> Still, I wonder if there's something in Doug's playing
    >> style that causes Vampires to be more danger to him
    >> at that point. (Of course, he may just want a silver
    >> saber and any excuse will do. :-)
    >
    >Good point. While in the mines my wizards will burn all
    >of their mana doing altar camping and then go exploring
    >when they run out only to return recharged. If I explore
    >a level at a time I'll end up doing a beeline from stairs
    >to stairs or even teleport from stairs to stairs on my
    >way down to a new level. This can mean I'm very low on
    >attack spells while exploring levels between mine town
    >and mines end.
    >
    >The reason I value silver saber more while exploring
    >below mine town is this poor strategy. Thanks for the
    >training.

    Glad to help. :-) You've given me a lot to think on
    (about having more fun...well, having fun...no, make
    that *trying* to have fun in the game.)

    I also meant it about just wanting an excuse for a silver
    saber. I love the sound of silver searing flesh. (It sounds
    like...victory.) They just don't quite fit the way I play
    wizards. (That's probably why I found so many silver sabers,
    including Werebane, in my last Wizard game. While my Arch
    on NAO languishes because I've got Magicbane for primary,
    but can't find a silver saber for secondary #twoweapon.
    And no Ft. Ludious.)

    >In subsequent wizards I will adjust
    >accordingly. It likely would not be an issue for any
    >wizard who hasn't learned "create monster" spell yet
    >either.
    >
    Good point.

    >There's a much less important reason that I hesitate
    >to blast away wildly with my most powerfull attack
    >spell when first arriving at mines end. It's dark and
    >I don't want to blast nymphs in a way that breaks
    >their mirrors (mirrors are too value for controlling
    >luck and too risky when you don't know you changed
    >your luck).

    Expand on luck controlling please? I've seen previous
    discussiongs but now I may be ready to try it.

    >I also don't want to smash whatever
    >potions or whatever in the vicinity.
    >
    Potions or survive, potions or survive? Once I realized
    quaffing unidentified potions was a bad idea, they became
    much less of a concern to me early. (i.e. from obsessive
    compulsive to just compulsive about getting them.)


    All good points, but many other spells can help greatly in
    combat without risking breakage: Enchantment spells, magic
    missile(of course), drain life, light, detect monster, healing
    spells, protection, jumping, haste self, even detect treasure
    lets you spend less time exploring a level.

    Force bolt gets regulated early to boulder/statue smashing,
    secret door finding, floating eye killing, and offensive
    use only when I know what's in the way. (Skilled spell
    of detect monster or blinded with telepathy would help
    you there.)


    >My most recent wizard to reach mines end emerged in
    >a crowd. A couple of V's, a couple of D's where one
    >turned out to be an adult (polymorph trap on level)
    >were in the crowd. I whacked a few monsters, got
    >down to half of my hit points, retreated up a few
    >levels to rest. Went back down again, whacked some
    >more and so on. I only blasted with my best attack
    >spell after clearing out most of the crowd. Lesson
    >learned - explore fully charged and Zap away like
    >crazy. Don't burn it all on altar camping until I'm
    >on the way back *up* out of the mines.

    Well, that last is what I do. Not to mention running
    whenever Pwr gets a little low. Emergencies show up
    when you're not prepared for them.

    I'm usually at experience level 10/11 at that point.
    Possibly the Hp/Pwr gains to that point, along with
    skill enhancement and general effects of level gain
    turn the corner on handling the Gnomish Mines?

    Of course, I usually have a buff pet or two still at that
    point. Most of the time I spend exploring while Fluffy and
    Phydeaux enjoy themselves playing with their food.

    (From the sound of it "Zap away like crazy" you don't keep pets
    to this point.)

    Your original strategy would not have occurred to me.
    Using the luckstone to keep luck generated by altar camping
    always seemed the obvious thing to do. (I'm no longer
    convinced of that. May try my next sacrifest without
    the luckstone in my main inventory. Should help avoid
    getting crowned.)

    Crowds seem the best place to use force bolt, magic missile,
    sleep, slow monster, charm monster, etc. because you can affect
    more than one hostile at a time.

    Telepathy with a controlled way of blinding/unblinding yourself
    would also let you avoid hitting nymphs. It would also let you
    use force bolt with maximum efficiency: hitting two or more
    monsters lined up appropriately. (I love lining orcs up in
    corridors, then letting fly with force bolt.)


    --
    All the best,

    Jove
  21. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove wrote:
    > Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >
    > >My simplistic view as that the V's on the variant of
    > >mine town are monsters somewhat out of depth. They
    > >are stronger than most other monsters on that level
    > >and thus a "serious danger". Overly simplistic.
    >
    > Overly simplistic perhaps, still accurate. Especially
    > for those without MC###.

    Yet another reason MC=3 cloak is a top early priority
    for me for all classes to the point I am not much
    interested in displacement.

    > Daggers are way under used by players as ranged weapons.
    > (Heck, *rocks* are way under used by players as ranged weapons.)
    > Especially in those classes that can advance the skill. Yes,
    > by late mid-game for a wizard they're almost completely
    > overshadowed by spells, but daggers help *get* you to the point
    > that they're no longer useful.

    Before I understood that advancing dagger skill
    meant throwing more, my characters generally
    carried enough rocks in the mines they were just
    barely not Burdened. It was enough rocks to
    throw them at everything that moved, avoiding
    peacefulls until a level got clear enough that
    I could decide if a peacefull was likely to have
    some good items. Even my lawfull characters are
    more interested in items than maxed alignment
    while clearing the mines.

    > (Thank Anhur the DevTeam made Magicbane a dagger skill.)

    Otherwise we'd be throwing knives and had
    spare crysknives. As long as a wizard can get
    to Expert in the first gift, dagger or knife
    would not matter to me. The separation of
    dagger and knife in skills was the death of
    crysknives as much as the introduction of
    artifacts was the death of crysknives.

    > >There's a much less important reason that I hesitate
    > >to blast away wildly with my most powerfull attack
    > >spell when first arriving at mines end. It's dark and
    > >I don't want to blast nymphs in a way that breaks
    > >their mirrors (mirrors are too value for controlling
    > >luck and too risky when you don't know you changed
    > >your luck).
    >
    > Expand on luck controlling please? I've seen previous
    > discussiongs but now I may be ready to try it.

    Controlled luck is something I learned on RGRN.

    Giving numbers is spoily enough that I've only
    posted on the topic in ROT13. Your current luck
    can be known. Luckstone gives +3, each clover at
    an altar gives +1, uncursed or blessed luckstone
    carried means once you know your value it never
    changes. Break mirror for -2, kill a coaligned
    unicorn for +5.

    The deal is the effects from a prayer are based on
    a random number and your luck. Above some luck
    value and there's a chance or either getting crowned
    or getting no effect. Below some number there is
    no risk of getting crowned. Effects can include
    a spellbook gift (wonderfull for spellcasters of
    dubious use for combat wombats), increased AC
    (wonderfull for everyone) and so on down the line.

    Once you know your exact desired best effect, you
    can do the arithmatic based on the spoilers or
    the source code and decide your exact desired
    numerical luck. Either start out at +0, add the
    luckstone for +3 then start counting clovers,
    or add the luckstone, max out your clovers then
    start counting down from +13 by killing friendly
    unicorns and/or breaking mirrors.

    The problem is you never know when your prayer
    timeout is expired so your luck can drift up.
    Allow that and you'll get crowned. So count,
    set to your range, and every clover that puts
    you into crowning range break a mirror. All
    that and you'll still forget to record a clover
    here and there and eventually get crowned
    anyways, sigh. Put there is plenty of AC and
    spellbooks to be gotten crowned or not.

    > >I also don't want to smash whatever
    > >potions or whatever in the vicinity.
    >
    > Potions or survive, potions or survive? Once I realized
    > quaffing unidentified potions was a bad idea, they became
    > much less of a concern to me early. (i.e. from obsessive
    > compulsive to just compulsive about getting them.)

    Knowing certain monsters generally carry certain
    potions makes quaffing that type less risky.
    it's one low-risk quaff.

    > Of course, I usually have a buff pet or two still at that
    > point. Most of the time I spend exploring while Fluffy and
    > Phydeaux enjoy themselves playing with their food.
    >
    > (From the sound of it "Zap away like crazy" you don't keep pets
    > to this point.)

    I used to lock pets in the first or second shop to
    be rid of them. Now I like to take them down to
    mine town and wait until they die gloriously in combat
    because they happen to get between the watch captain
    and a surviving watchmen. I do not tend to recruit
    new pets for the rest of the game unless I am in a
    huge crowd of major nasties.

    > Your original strategy would not have occurred to me.
    > Using the luckstone to keep luck generated by altar camping
    > always seemed the obvious thing to do. (I'm no longer
    > convinced of that. May try my next sacrifest without
    > the luckstone in my main inventory. Should help avoid
    > getting crowned.)

    Not me idea, something I picked up on RGRN and
    then read the source and did the arithmatic.
    Doing a sac-fest without a luckstone will still
    take you to max, it will just be harder to know
    your exact score.
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