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On 1 Sep 2005 13:28:06 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
<dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Jove wrote:
>> > Doug Freyburger wrote:
>>
>> >>When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
>> >>are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
>> >>watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
>> >>A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
>> >>encounters with V's.
>>
>> <snipped excellent discussion of threat of vampires to
>> characters who reach Mines End>
>
>My simplistic view as that the V's on the variant of
>mine town are monsters somewhat out of depth. They
>are stronger than most other monsters on that level
>and thus a "serious danger". Overly simplistic.
>
Overly simplistic perhaps, still accurate. Especially
for those without MC###. Up to Mine's End I'm still playing a
combat wombat -
- tedious armor testing,
- much shifting of armor for spellcasting when not in combat.
(I found +4 elven mithril. I wore it.)
- enhancing strength (Sokoban)
- max #enhancing dagger skill
- getting a lot of price-identified daggers.
3-5 +3/4 daggers or 7-9 daggers in general let a wizard
handle just about any single monster that he can see coming.
(I was amazed the first time a captain of the Mine Town guard
fell to thrown daggers before he got to melee range.)
- casting light strategically (if I'm lucky enough to have it.)
Lighting up large dark areas let's you see what's coming.
(A poor man's version of skilled detect monsters.)
- advancing character levels (more Hp & Pwr). Yes, it makes
divine protection more expensive. But, if you survive,
you're pretty much guaranteed to be able to buy divine
protection down to +1 naked AC. (And I usually end up
buying it twice.)
Daggers are way under used by players as ranged weapons.
(Heck, *rocks* are way under used by players as ranged weapons.)
Especially in those classes that can advance the skill. Yes,
by late mid-game for a wizard they're almost completely
overshadowed by spells, but daggers help *get* you to the point
that they're no longer useful. (Thank Anhur the DevTeam made
Magicbane a dagger skill.)
Back to Vampires at Mine's End, they do seem a bit out of
level. Here's a thought on why: Delayed protection racket.
Arrange for a vampire to take you down a few levels to make
buying divine protection cheaper. Maybe only purchase once before
vampiring?
Gehennom, think of the spell of drain life! (I think it's
showed up that early before.) Or Stormbringer, of course.
And why stop at losing levels to make protection cheaper?
Hp and Pwr gained when leveling up depend on Con and Wis.
Even without rings of gain constitution or enchanted HoB
by Mine's End Con and Wis should be higher (maybe a lot higher)
than their starting values.
Blessed potions of gain ability and enlightenment anyone? And
I believe a cheap way of gaining Wisdom is to blind yourself and
then search with peacefuls/pets around. Doesn't wisdom get
exercised every time you find something while searching?
So let a vampire take you down a few levels, then run away.
Put on your rings of +Con & enchanted HoB. Run back to the
priest (here your idea of teleporting between up/down stairs
looks *real* good). Buy cheaper protection. Start killing
again.
The nasty question is how far down to go? The lower the
cheaper, and the lower the quicker you'll gain back the next
few levels. But also the lower the more danger you'll be in.
A nice challenge for those who want more excitement in their
games of Nethack.
Of course with Stormbringer or the spell of drain level
you never need to leave the Mine Town temple. If it's a
co-aligned temple you've got it made. Just zap passing monsters
with force bolt, etc. when you're ready to gain levels again.
(NB. This technique can also be used *at any time in the game*
to correct mis-allocated skill levels while #enhancing.)
(Who needs grape jelly?)
>> I felt myself that Vampires were never much of a threat
>> to my Wizards at Mines End. That didn't mean that was
>> true for other players and I didn't have it on the sound
>> basis you expounded so well.
>>
>> Still, I wonder if there's something in Doug's playing
>> style that causes Vampires to be more danger to him
>> at that point. (Of course, he may just want a silver
>> saber and any excuse will do.
>
>Good point. While in the mines my wizards will burn all
>of their mana doing altar camping and then go exploring
>when they run out only to return recharged. If I explore
>a level at a time I'll end up doing a beeline from stairs
>to stairs or even teleport from stairs to stairs on my
>way down to a new level. This can mean I'm very low on
>attack spells while exploring levels between mine town
>and mines end.
>
>The reason I value silver saber more while exploring
>below mine town is this poor strategy. Thanks for the
>training.
Glad to help.
You've given me a lot to think on
(about having more fun...well, having fun...no, make
that *trying* to have fun in the game.)
I also meant it about just wanting an excuse for a silver
saber. I love the sound of silver searing flesh. (It sounds
like...victory.) They just don't quite fit the way I play
wizards. (That's probably why I found so many silver sabers,
including Werebane, in my last Wizard game. While my Arch
on NAO languishes because I've got Magicbane for primary,
but can't find a silver saber for secondary #twoweapon.
And no Ft. Ludious.)
>In subsequent wizards I will adjust
>accordingly. It likely would not be an issue for any
>wizard who hasn't learned "create monster" spell yet
>either.
>
Good point.
>There's a much less important reason that I hesitate
>to blast away wildly with my most powerfull attack
>spell when first arriving at mines end. It's dark and
>I don't want to blast nymphs in a way that breaks
>their mirrors (mirrors are too value for controlling
>luck and too risky when you don't know you changed
>your luck).
Expand on luck controlling please? I've seen previous
discussiongs but now I may be ready to try it.
>I also don't want to smash whatever
>potions or whatever in the vicinity.
>
Potions or survive, potions or survive? Once I realized
quaffing unidentified potions was a bad idea, they became
much less of a concern to me early. (i.e. from obsessive
compulsive to just compulsive about getting them.)
All good points, but many other spells can help greatly in
combat without risking breakage: Enchantment spells, magic
missile(of course), drain life, light, detect monster, healing
spells, protection, jumping, haste self, even detect treasure
lets you spend less time exploring a level.
Force bolt gets regulated early to boulder/statue smashing,
secret door finding, floating eye killing, and offensive
use only when I know what's in the way. (Skilled spell
of detect monster or blinded with telepathy would help
you there.)
>My most recent wizard to reach mines end emerged in
>a crowd. A couple of V's, a couple of D's where one
>turned out to be an adult (polymorph trap on level)
>were in the crowd. I whacked a few monsters, got
>down to half of my hit points, retreated up a few
>levels to rest. Went back down again, whacked some
>more and so on. I only blasted with my best attack
>spell after clearing out most of the crowd. Lesson
>learned - explore fully charged and Zap away like
>crazy. Don't burn it all on altar camping until I'm
>on the way back *up* out of the mines.
Well, that last is what I do. Not to mention running
whenever Pwr gets a little low. Emergencies show up
when you're not prepared for them.
I'm usually at experience level 10/11 at that point.
Possibly the Hp/Pwr gains to that point, along with
skill enhancement and general effects of level gain
turn the corner on handling the Gnomish Mines?
Of course, I usually have a buff pet or two still at that
point. Most of the time I spend exploring while Fluffy and
Phydeaux enjoy themselves playing with their food.
(From the sound of it "Zap away like crazy" you don't keep pets
to this point.)
Your original strategy would not have occurred to me.
Using the luckstone to keep luck generated by altar camping
always seemed the obvious thing to do. (I'm no longer
convinced of that. May try my next sacrifest without
the luckstone in my main inventory. Should help avoid
getting crowned.)
Crowds seem the best place to use force bolt, magic missile,
sleep, slow monster, charm monster, etc. because you can affect
more than one hostile at a time.
Telepathy with a controlled way of blinding/unblinding yourself
would also let you avoid hitting nymphs. It would also let you
use force bolt with maximum efficiency: hitting two or more
monsters lined up appropriately. (I love lining orcs up in
corridors, then letting fly with force bolt.)
--
All the best,
Jove
I'm hoping I'll be able to make YAFAP soon.
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