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Finally, I deliberately cursed something!

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Anonymous
August 25, 2005 5:20:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

As a lousy player who did never go very far in the game, it was
always frustrating for me to see messages concerning unholy water
and how it was a precious ressource: I had never ever gotten to
a point where I would like to have unholy water, and had moreover
much trouble getting any kind of water to make holy water.

In my current game I had found unholy water and stored it in my
stash just in case, and yesterday I finally found a (an?) use
for it: cursing my zillions uncursed teleport scroll which I don't
need because I have teleportis (and teleport control, which is
nice). Now I feel I'm getting somewhere with this game at last!

By the way, I had the same kind of frustrations with most
conducts: "Ascend wishless?! What the hell! I'd love to make
a wish but cannot find any way to make one!", and the same
when people mentioned refraining from genociding monsters,
when I had perhaps seen and identified three scrolls of genocide
in my entire nethack history.
This game is also an end to this frustration: this is the first
game where I have succeeded in _breaking_ all conducts: I changed
form (gaining two silver dragon sons in the process), used four
wishes, and genocided 14 types of monsters (that's all c, L and
h). All other conducts are easy to break.

Maybe at some time in the future I will be concerned with conducts,
but right now this feels so good!
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 7:11:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> chlorine wrote:
>
> > In my current game I had found unholy water and stored it in my
> > stash just in case, and yesterday I finally found a (an?) use
> > for it: cursing my zillions uncursed teleport scroll which I don't
> > need because I have teleportis (and teleport control, which is
> > nice). Now I feel I'm getting somewhere with this game at last!
>
> Did you remember to make *more* potions before using up the last one,
> just like you should with holy water?

In this case this was not necessary, as actually I found two
potions of unholy water. The other one is safely in my stash.
I plan to go one more time at my stash before going to see
Rodney, I will make more unholy water then.

>
> > By the way, I had the same kind of frustrations with most
> > conducts: "Ascend wishless?! What the hell! I'd love to make
> > a wish but cannot find any way to make one!"
>
> Well, if you cannot get a wish, wishless conduct is easy.

Well, yes, but unless you consider dying instead of ascending as
a conduct, there's not much point in dying while following
any given conduct. ;) 

>
> [ And yes, it is "a use", not "an use": it's not how you write it,
> but how you pronounce it. ]

Yes, I thought so, but my problem is that I'm much more used
to written english than spoken english, so this type of rules
are hard for me to use.

chlorine.
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 2:28:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

chlorine wrote:

> In my current game I had found unholy water and stored it in my
> stash just in case, and yesterday I finally found a (an?) use
> for it: cursing my zillions uncursed teleport scroll which I don't
> need because I have teleportis (and teleport control, which is
> nice). Now I feel I'm getting somewhere with this game at last!

Did you remember to make *more* potions before using up the last one,
just like you should with holy water?

> By the way, I had the same kind of frustrations with most
> conducts: "Ascend wishless?! What the hell! I'd love to make
> a wish but cannot find any way to make one!"

Well, if you cannot get a wish, wishless conduct is easy.

> Maybe at some time in the future I will be concerned with conducts,
> but right now this feels so good!

Way to go, girl!

--
Boudewijn.

[ And yes, it is "a use", not "an use": it's not how you write it,
but how you pronounce it. ]
Related resources
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 8:19:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1124964714.707932.191430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, chlorine
says...

> I plan to go one more time at my stash before going to see
> Rodney, I will make more unholy water then.

You're at much the same point as I am then. My Priest is at the bottom of
Gehennom, and will also travel back up once more before force feeding Rodney
one of my cockatrice eggs :)  I'm hoping I'll be able to make YAFAP soon.

Did you ever manage to find yourself a new artifact weapon, or a stack of
silver daggers?
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 9:58:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1124958009.924623.157210@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, chlorine
says...
> (gaining two silver dragon sons in the process)
>

A little slow here, but I just thought of another combat strategy you could
pursue without the Eye or an artifact weapon, or a shield.

Saddle up one of your dragons (or tame something else), pick a nice polearm
from Ludios/Castle, and #ride. Polearms do normal melee damage whilst riding,
and can still be #applied at range. The extra carrying capacity should cover
the weight of a bardiche or halberd, which are amongst the most damaging non
artifacts. Spetums and ranseurs are lighter and still do decent damage.

Cast Light when you see a nasty approaching in order to hit it at range. Make
sure both you and mount are invisible.

Wizards can get to Basic in Riding and Skilled in Polearms. Wearing riding
gloves and boots (unless Fumbling :)  whilst mounting helps as does high
charisma.

A few potential problems:

# Keep mount fed. AFAICS a mount will always finish a meal in one turn.

# Keep it tame. Mounting by a non Knight reduces tameness.

# Keep polearm non cursed or you won't be able to cast spells. This would
probably be a bad thing for a Wizard. Bless it and keep !oHW or ?oRC handy.

# Teleporting will, I assume, unmount you.
Anonymous
August 25, 2005 9:58:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Andrew Kerr wrote:
> A few potential problems:
>
> # Keep mount fed. AFAICS a mount will always finish a meal in one turn.

Mounts will commonly get the food before you can; more of a problem is
saving the important corpses (wraiths, giants) for yourself.

> # Keep it tame. Mounting by a non Knight reduces tameness.

If it eats, it will be tame. Eating increases a pet's tameness.
Non-eating steeds (Ki-Rin and maybe a few other) or vegetarian steeds
(horses) will have a problem here.

>
> # Keep polearm non cursed or you won't be able to cast spells. This would
> probably be a bad thing for a Wizard. Bless it and keep !oHW or ?oRC handy.
>
Consider using daggers as well after you reach basic in Riding (so you
can pick them up).

> # Teleporting will, I assume, unmount you.

It will not. Much like falling through a hole with pets next to you, the
mount will come with you. When mounted you're actually considered a
single creature in most cases.

Levitation will unmount you though.
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 2:31:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:17:05 -0500, Andy Johnson
<swervy.a@take-this.out.gmail.com> wrote:

>Andrew Kerr wrote:
>> A few potential problems:
>>
>> # Keep mount fed. AFAICS a mount will always finish a meal in one turn.
>
>Mounts will commonly get the food before you can; more of a problem is
>saving the important corpses (wraiths, giants) for yourself.
>
>> # Keep it tame. Mounting by a non Knight reduces tameness.
>
>If it eats, it will be tame. Eating increases a pet's tameness.
>Non-eating steeds (Ki-Rin and maybe a few other) or vegetarian steeds
>(horses) will have a problem here.

Horse eat food rations when hungry enough. #pung gb lbhe ubefr
naq vs vg juvaalf, qebc n sbbq engvba.

Spell of charm monster helpful otherwise.

>
>>
>> # Keep polearm non cursed or you won't be able to cast spells. This would
>> probably be a bad thing for a Wizard. Bless it and keep !oHW or ?oRC handy.
>>
>Consider using daggers as well after you reach basic in Riding (so you
>can pick them up).

If the original poster does all this, it would be interesting
to hear their opinion on the relative values of polearms and
daggers when mounted. (The cursed polearm problem is serious for
a wizard in that the spell of remove curse then can't be cast.)

Daggers have more range, but need to be picked up (as the
previous poster pointed out.) Dagger skill is probably already
high and skill slots may not be available for polearms.
The original poster may already have used up scrolls of enchant
weapon on their dagger stack with none left to enchant the
polearm.

Polearms can reach past adjacent monsters and over water/traps.
Conditions that could make dagger recovery problematic.



>
>> # Teleporting will, I assume, unmount you.
>
>It will not. Much like falling through a hole with pets next to you, the
>mount will come with you. When mounted you're actually considered a
>single creature in most cases.
>
>Levitation will unmount you though.

#A cursed saddle will prevent you from dismounting.

Spell of knock or wand of opening directed downward ">" will
dismount you and remove the saddle from your mount. Wand or
spell of cancellation *may* uncurse the saddle, at the cost of
canceling your mount (Subject to possible magical resistance
on the part of the steed). I say may because I've never done it
myself.


--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 3:51:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Andrew Kerr wrote:
> In article <1124964714.707932.191430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, chlorine
> says...
>
> > I plan to go one more time at my stash before going to see
> > Rodney, I will make more unholy water then.
>
> You're at much the same point as I am then. My Priest is at the bottom of
> Gehennom, and will also travel back up once more before force feeding Rodney
> one of my cockatrice eggs :)  I'm hoping I'll be able to make YAFAP soon.

Hey, that would be cool if we YAFAP'ed at the same time! A priest for
a first ascension would be nice also, I don't think there are that many
of them.
I finished Vlad yesterday evening, and have got back to the final
visit at my stash and altar. I think I will finally finish this game
one way or another this week-end.

>
> Did you ever manage to find yourself a new artifact weapon, or a stack of
> silver daggers?

I did get another artifact weapon after quite some time, but it
was Dragonbane (sigh). I was pretty disappointed, so I gave up
sacrificing for artifacts and enchanted Dragonbane. It seems to make
a little more damage than Sting so I'm using it. Since I hit
every time it doesn't seem the fact that I'm only basic for broadsword
doesn't matter.
Anyway I'm glad I didn't hang around trying to get another weapon
after that, because afterwards when I was sacrificing for praying
I got another gift, and it was Ogresmasher...

I didn't wish for silver daggers and don't think I will finally:
I was saving my wishes (I still have four of them), and nothing I
met in Gehennom gave me much trouble, and I think it's only demons
that hate silver so I won't need silver daggers in the future
I think.

chlorine
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 7:21:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Andrew Kerr wrote:
> In article <1124958009.924623.157210@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, chlorine
> says...
> > (gaining two silver dragon sons in the process)
> >
>
> A little slow here, but I just thought of another combat strategy you could
> pursue without the Eye or an artifact weapon, or a shield.
>
> Saddle up one of your dragons (or tame something else), pick a nice polearm
> from Ludios/Castle, and #ride. Polearms do normal melee damage whilst riding,
> and can still be #applied at range. The extra carrying capacity should cover
> the weight of a bardiche or halberd, which are amongst the most damaging non
> artifacts. Spetums and ranseurs are lighter and still do decent damage.

Well, that's something I wouldn't have thought of! Although for
the time being I have no more pet dragons (one ate a doppleganger
corpse and turned into a fire ant and was later killed, and the other
I lost on a teleport level trap in gehennom just before the last level,
I didn't even try to go and find him again, maybe I'll try to tame
him on my way back up with the amulet).
But I was considering polymorphing into a dragon and laying more eggs,
so...

But I want to ask, what is the use of riding if my polearm will do
normal melee damage? Does it do lesser than normal if I'm not
riding?

chlorine
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 5:33:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1125051687.788133.5540@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, chlorine
says...
> But I want to ask, what is the use of riding if my polearm will do
> normal melee damage? Does it do lesser than normal if I'm not
> riding?
>
>
If you're not riding they do a stunning d2 damage in melee, and need to be
#applied at range to do proper damage. When riding they do the same damage
whether melee or ranged.

Another weapon option you may have is a battleaxe. Loads of damage, and Wizards
can get to Skilled. Two handed again though.
Anonymous
August 26, 2005 5:37:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1125039116.932774.206540@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, chlorine
says...
> Hey, that would be cool if we YAFAP'ed at the same time! A priest for
> a first ascension would be nice also, I don't think there are that many
> of them.
>
Sadly a combination of forgetting to put gloves back on and playing with a
cockatrice had unfortunate consequences for my Priest in the VotD.

I wish you the best of luck with your run.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 5:24:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

chlorine wrote:
>
> > Did you ever manage to find yourself a new artifact weapon, or a stack of
> > silver daggers?
> ...
> I didn't wish for silver daggers and don't think I will finally:
> I was saving my wishes (I still have four of them), and nothing I
> met in Gehennom gave me much trouble, and I think it's only demons
> that hate silver so I won't need silver daggers in the future
> I think.

There are more types of silver-hating monsters than demons.
Vampires and such. Yet another reason why combat wombat
folks like to use a silver saber as they secondary weapon
while #twoweapong-ing.

When I polypile I do extract all silver daggers. I never
seem to get a large stack but if I ever get 10+ I'll consider
replacing my quiver of elven dagger.
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 11:38:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Martin Read wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> >There are more types of silver-hating monsters than demons.
>
> Demons, however, are the only ones who might be a meaningful threat to a
> high-level character. Vlad The Impaler is wet and a weed.

When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
encounters with V's. The topic was silver daggers not
silver sabers, but silver daggers are as rare as stilletos
while silver sabers eventually become common items.
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 2:06:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
>There are more types of silver-hating monsters than demons.

Demons, however, are the only ones who might be a meaningful threat to a
high-level character. Vlad The Impaler is wet and a weed.

(SLASH'EM, of course, has vampires that *are* dangerous to high-level
characters.)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ meteorites are outta sight but this one's place is in outer space
\ / if you wanna know i'll tell you why it's cause radiation makes you die
\/ -- Zombina and the Skeletones, "Meteorite"
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 6:33:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
>When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
>are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
>watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
>A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
>encounters with V's.

Characters who've reached mines end should have either MC3 and a good
AC, or some means of dishing out substantial damage, particularly if
they're high enough level to be meeting vampires at mines end other
than as a result of the one mines end variant that has hard-wired
vampires.

Vampires (threat rating 12 frequency 1) have 10-80 hit points (average
45), AC 1, speed 12 ("normal" speed), and two attacks. The first attack
does 1d6 damage; the second does 1d6 damage and attempts to drain a level
of experience. The level drain happens one hit in three on average,
and is affected by the player's magic cancellation level.

A combat-wombat should have negative AC and MC3; most (all?) of them
will also be Fast. Knights and lawful Valkyries should have Excalibur,
as will some Samurai.

A Wizard should have MC3 and force bolts that do 5d6 damage per hit.

A Priest should have either MC3 and negative AC, or an attack spell
doing 5d6 damage per hit.

Now, consider the leocrotta (threat rating 8 frequency 2). 6-48 hit
points (average 27), speed 18 (faster than a "Fast" player), and three
attacks each doing 2d6 damage.

I know which *I'd* rather meet with a tenth-level character who's
reached mines end. Incoveniently, it's the less common of the two
monsters.

Of course, if you've managed by luck or judgment to obtain a blessed or
uncursed athame at this point, leocrottas (and vampires who don't have
any ranged attack items) can trivially be made completely harmless.

>The topic was silver daggers not
>silver sabers, but silver daggers are as rare as stilletos
>while silver sabers eventually become common items.

That's partly because being able to readily obtain large numbers of
silver daggers would make the game too easy.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ meteorites are outta sight but this one's place is in outer space
\ / if you wanna know i'll tell you why it's cause radiation makes you die
\/ -- Zombina and the Skeletones, "Meteorite"
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 11:05:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 30 Aug 2005 14:33:29 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
<mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
>>are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
>>watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
>>A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
>>encounters with V's.
>

<snipped excellent discussion of threat of vampires to
characters who reach Mines End>

I felt myself that Vampires were never much of a threat
to my Wizards at Mines End. That didn't mean that was
true for other players and I didn't have it on the sound
basis you expounded so well.

Still, I wonder if there's something in Doug's playing
style that causes Vampires to be more danger to him
at that point. (Of course, he may just want a silver
saber and any excuse will do. :-)

>
>>The topic was silver daggers not
>>silver sabers, but silver daggers are as rare as stilletos
>>while silver sabers eventually become common items.
>
>That's partly because being able to readily obtain large numbers of
>silver daggers would make the game too easy.

Could you expand on that please? Rogues with their dagger
skills and #twoweaponing maybe. But a silver dagger does the
same damage as a regular dagger (to non silver-haters).

All daggers do the same damage to large monsters. Elven
daggers average 0.5 more hitpoints damage to small monsters
than daggers, athames, and silver daggers, IIRC.

So the silver daggers would be great for silver-hating
monsters. Even an unskilled character can throw one silver
dagger per turn. But most silver-hating monsters will be
met in the VotD, where the crowd makes recovering thrown
daggers a problem. Or they'll be in Gehennom itself, where
the mazes make ranged attacks difficult, and recovery in a
crowd is even more of a problem.

For #two-weaponing, a silver saber would be preferred over
a silver dagger as often as not. But no one claims silver
sabers make the game too easy.

And as your post pointed out, Vampires should not be that
big a deal once a character has reached Mines End, so what
is the threat that a silver dagger would make too easy that
a silver saber does not? A threat that a character at the
normal level for meeting that threat would have trouble with.



--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 5:16:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <p7s9h1tk91c8o6ktrqea16fhjg59hc1i6s@4ax.com>, Jove says...
> On 30 Aug 2005 14:33:29 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
> <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
> >>are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
> >>watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
> >>A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
> >>encounters with V's.
> >
>
> <snipped excellent discussion of threat of vampires to
> characters who reach Mines End>
>
> I felt myself that Vampires were never much of a threat
> to my Wizards at Mines End. That didn't mean that was
> true for other players and I didn't have it on the sound
> basis you expounded so well.

They are a threat to pets. A Knight I had a few weeks ago rode into Mine's
End on a baby dragon. Half the Vs' attacks went to the pet. The lance
promptly snapped, and the Knight perished soon after.

> >That's partly because being able to readily obtain large numbers of
> >silver daggers would make the game too easy.
>
> Could you expand on that please? Rogues with their dagger
> skills and #twoweaponing maybe. But a silver dagger does the
> same damage as a regular dagger (to non silver-haters).

d3 thrown daggers would have an expected damage for one move greater than
Grayswandir (I can't be bothered to do the maths though). Ro and Ra can
throw d4.

A demon prince would likely run (or die) immediately after being hit,
allowing the character to pick the weapons up.

In the absence of an artifact, silver daggers make a better primary weapon
than silver sabres in twoweapon, as they have a +2 hit bonus.

Wishing for 3 silver daggers at the Castle would IMHO be a decent idea for
an Expert dagger thrower. One dagger is useful for melee, 3 is a full one
volley quiver. A Ranger, and maybe others, would be better off with 20
(guaranteed) silver arrows though.
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 5:16:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:16:10 GMT, Andrew Kerr
<andykerr@SPAMGUARD.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <p7s9h1tk91c8o6ktrqea16fhjg59hc1i6s@4ax.com>, Jove says...
>> On 30 Aug 2005 14:33:29 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
>> <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
>> >>are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
>> >>watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
>> >>A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
>> >>encounters with V's.
>> >
>>
>> <snipped excellent discussion of threat of vampires to
>> characters who reach Mines End>
>>
>> I felt myself that Vampires were never much of a threat
>> to my Wizards at Mines End. That didn't mean that was
>> true for other players and I didn't have it on the sound
>> basis you expounded so well.
>
>They are a threat to pets. A Knight I had a few weeks ago rode into Mine's
>End on a baby dragon. Half the Vs' attacks went to the pet. The lance
>promptly snapped, and the Knight perished soon after.
>
Were you #jumping? What other alternative tactics could have
been tried? Not riding? Silver saber as backup weapon?

>> >That's partly because being able to readily obtain large numbers of
>> >silver daggers would make the game too easy.
>>
>> Could you expand on that please? Rogues with their dagger
>> skills and #twoweaponing maybe. But a silver dagger does the
>> same damage as a regular dagger (to non silver-haters).
>
>d3 thrown daggers would have an expected damage for one move greater than
>Grayswandir (I can't be bothered to do the maths though). Ro and Ra can
>throw d4.
>
>A demon prince would likely run (or die) immediately after being hit,
>allowing the character to pick the weapons up.
>
>In the absence of an artifact, silver daggers make a better primary weapon
>than silver sabres in twoweapon, as they have a +2 hit bonus.

Or an ordinary dagger, with the silver saber as the second
weapon?

>
>Wishing for 3 silver daggers at the Castle would IMHO be a decent idea for
>an Expert dagger thrower. One dagger is useful for melee, 3 is a full one
>volley quiver. A Ranger, and maybe others, would be better off with 20
>(guaranteed) silver arrows though.

Interesting points. As a high-level wizard with the polymorph
spell I've several times gotten a stack of ten or so +7 blessed
silver daggers (named SilverStorm, for style :-).

Magic missile at exp level 30 still killed silver-haters faster
than throwing d3 +7 blessed silver daggers at Expert dagger
skill. That was important to me then because I hated seeing
vampires wasting *my* !oFH by drinking them when I was going to
kill them no matter what.

I tried the silver daggers because I love the message about
silver seared flesh. I've used a silver saber for the same
reason, as a wizard. Neither one seemed worth it.

Demon princes can be better handled via bribery though, if
they're a concern. (For Juiblex, substitute the wand of digging
trick.) Or Elbereth, if you overestimate your chances and don't
bribe them.

Daggers are under-used in the game, perhaps plentiful silver
daggers would change that some. They still seem too much of a
specialty weapon to use a wish on.

(Players still don't seem to throw rocks when appropriate
and rocks can usually easily be found when needed.)

It would be interesting if the probability of silver daggers
could be varied. Nethack servers could compete: "We have ten
times as many silver daggers." Three games later you find your
first one, just before you die anyway.

My wizards would still end up with an unused "vanity" stack.

And still, large numbers of silver daggers would only make the
game significantly easier against silver-haters for classes that
can get dagger to Expert. (And you can't really count wizards
in that because magic missile is still better than a stack of
silver daggers.)

Would that really make that much difference overall?

--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 6:59:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <t34ah196mvc5lccju0vgq64fruhussli1o@4ax.com>, Jove
<invalid@invalid.invalid> says...

>On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 01:16:10 GMT, Andrew Kerr
><andykerr@SPAMGUARD.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >They are a threat to pets. A Knight I had a few weeks ago rode into Mine's
> >End on a baby dragon. Half the Vs' attacks went to the pet. The lance
> >promptly snapped, and the Knight perished soon after.
> Were you #jumping? What other alternative tactics could have
> been tried? Not riding? Silver saber as backup weapon?

Mostly I should have tried "paying attention to the HP level". I wasn't
really trying in that game. I'll go back to Knights after I've ascended
this Priest.

> And still, large numbers of silver daggers would only make the
> game significantly easier against silver-haters for classes that
> can get dagger to Expert. (And you can't really count wizards
> in that because magic missile is still better than a stack of
> silver daggers.)

Rogue, Tourist and Valkyrie can all get to Expert in dagger and at most
Basic in bow.
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 5:28:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:
> > Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> >>When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
> >>are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
> >>watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
> >>A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
> >>encounters with V's.
>
> <snipped excellent discussion of threat of vampires to
> characters who reach Mines End>

My simplistic view as that the V's on the variant of
mine town are monsters somewhat out of depth. They
are stronger than most other monsters on that level
and thus a "serious danger". Overly simplistic.

> I felt myself that Vampires were never much of a threat
> to my Wizards at Mines End. That didn't mean that was
> true for other players and I didn't have it on the sound
> basis you expounded so well.
>
> Still, I wonder if there's something in Doug's playing
> style that causes Vampires to be more danger to him
> at that point. (Of course, he may just want a silver
> saber and any excuse will do. :-)

Good point. While in the mines my wizards will burn all
of their mana doing altar camping and then go exploring
when they run out only to return recharged. If I explore
a level at a time I'll end up doing a beeline from stairs
to stairs or even teleport from stairs to stairs on my
way down to a new level. This can mean I'm very low on
attack spells while exploring levels between mine town
and mines end.

The reason I value silver saber more while exploring
below mine town is this poor strategy. Thanks for the
training. In subsequent wizards I will adjust
accordingly. It likely would not be an issue for any
wizard who hasn't learned "create monster" spell yet
either.

There's a much less important reason that I hesitate
to blast away wildly with my most powerfull attack
spell when first arriving at mines end. It's dark and
I don't want to blast nymphs in a way that breaks
their mirrors (mirrors are too value for controlling
luck and too risky when you don't know you changed
your luck). I also don't want to smash whatever
potions or whatever in the vicinity.

My most recent wizard to reach mines end emerged in
a crowd. A couple of V's, a couple of D's where one
turned out to be an adult (polymorph trap on level)
were in the crowd. I whacked a few monsters, got
down to half of my hit points, retreated up a few
levels to rest. Went back down again, whacked some
more and so on. I only blasted with my best attack
spell after clearing out most of the crowd. Lesson
learned - explore fully charged and Zap away like
crazy. Don't burn it all on altar camping until I'm
on the way back *up* out of the mines.
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 1:24:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 1 Sep 2005 13:28:06 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
<dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Jove wrote:
>> > Doug Freyburger wrote:
>>
>> >>When V's first start appearing (as early as mines end) they
>> >>are a serious danger to a character of that level. The
>> >>watch captain gets 50-50 change silver saber or long sword.
>> >>A silver saber makes a large difference in the first
>> >>encounters with V's.
>>
>> <snipped excellent discussion of threat of vampires to
>> characters who reach Mines End>
>
>My simplistic view as that the V's on the variant of
>mine town are monsters somewhat out of depth. They
>are stronger than most other monsters on that level
>and thus a "serious danger". Overly simplistic.
>

Overly simplistic perhaps, still accurate. Especially
for those without MC###. Up to Mine's End I'm still playing a
combat wombat -

- tedious armor testing,
- much shifting of armor for spellcasting when not in combat.
(I found +4 elven mithril. I wore it.)
- enhancing strength (Sokoban)
- max #enhancing dagger skill
- getting a lot of price-identified daggers.
3-5 +3/4 daggers or 7-9 daggers in general let a wizard
handle just about any single monster that he can see coming.
(I was amazed the first time a captain of the Mine Town guard
fell to thrown daggers before he got to melee range.)
- casting light strategically (if I'm lucky enough to have it.)
Lighting up large dark areas let's you see what's coming.
(A poor man's version of skilled detect monsters.)
- advancing character levels (more Hp & Pwr). Yes, it makes
divine protection more expensive. But, if you survive,
you're pretty much guaranteed to be able to buy divine
protection down to +1 naked AC. (And I usually end up
buying it twice.)


Daggers are way under used by players as ranged weapons.
(Heck, *rocks* are way under used by players as ranged weapons.)
Especially in those classes that can advance the skill. Yes,
by late mid-game for a wizard they're almost completely
overshadowed by spells, but daggers help *get* you to the point
that they're no longer useful. (Thank Anhur the DevTeam made
Magicbane a dagger skill.)


Back to Vampires at Mine's End, they do seem a bit out of
level. Here's a thought on why: Delayed protection racket.
Arrange for a vampire to take you down a few levels to make
buying divine protection cheaper. Maybe only purchase once before
vampiring?

Gehennom, think of the spell of drain life! (I think it's
showed up that early before.) Or Stormbringer, of course.

And why stop at losing levels to make protection cheaper?
Hp and Pwr gained when leveling up depend on Con and Wis.
Even without rings of gain constitution or enchanted HoB
by Mine's End Con and Wis should be higher (maybe a lot higher)
than their starting values.

Blessed potions of gain ability and enlightenment anyone? And
I believe a cheap way of gaining Wisdom is to blind yourself and
then search with peacefuls/pets around. Doesn't wisdom get
exercised every time you find something while searching?

So let a vampire take you down a few levels, then run away.
Put on your rings of +Con & enchanted HoB. Run back to the
priest (here your idea of teleporting between up/down stairs
looks *real* good). Buy cheaper protection. Start killing
again.


The nasty question is how far down to go? The lower the
cheaper, and the lower the quicker you'll gain back the next
few levels. But also the lower the more danger you'll be in.
A nice challenge for those who want more excitement in their
games of Nethack.

Of course with Stormbringer or the spell of drain level
you never need to leave the Mine Town temple. If it's a
co-aligned temple you've got it made. Just zap passing monsters
with force bolt, etc. when you're ready to gain levels again.

(NB. This technique can also be used *at any time in the game*
to correct mis-allocated skill levels while #enhancing.)

(Who needs grape jelly?)

>> I felt myself that Vampires were never much of a threat
>> to my Wizards at Mines End. That didn't mean that was
>> true for other players and I didn't have it on the sound
>> basis you expounded so well.
>>
>> Still, I wonder if there's something in Doug's playing
>> style that causes Vampires to be more danger to him
>> at that point. (Of course, he may just want a silver
>> saber and any excuse will do. :-)
>
>Good point. While in the mines my wizards will burn all
>of their mana doing altar camping and then go exploring
>when they run out only to return recharged. If I explore
>a level at a time I'll end up doing a beeline from stairs
>to stairs or even teleport from stairs to stairs on my
>way down to a new level. This can mean I'm very low on
>attack spells while exploring levels between mine town
>and mines end.
>
>The reason I value silver saber more while exploring
>below mine town is this poor strategy. Thanks for the
>training.

Glad to help. :-) You've given me a lot to think on
(about having more fun...well, having fun...no, make
that *trying* to have fun in the game.)

I also meant it about just wanting an excuse for a silver
saber. I love the sound of silver searing flesh. (It sounds
like...victory.) They just don't quite fit the way I play
wizards. (That's probably why I found so many silver sabers,
including Werebane, in my last Wizard game. While my Arch
on NAO languishes because I've got Magicbane for primary,
but can't find a silver saber for secondary #twoweapon.
And no Ft. Ludious.)

>In subsequent wizards I will adjust
>accordingly. It likely would not be an issue for any
>wizard who hasn't learned "create monster" spell yet
>either.
>
Good point.

>There's a much less important reason that I hesitate
>to blast away wildly with my most powerfull attack
>spell when first arriving at mines end. It's dark and
>I don't want to blast nymphs in a way that breaks
>their mirrors (mirrors are too value for controlling
>luck and too risky when you don't know you changed
>your luck).

Expand on luck controlling please? I've seen previous
discussiongs but now I may be ready to try it.

>I also don't want to smash whatever
>potions or whatever in the vicinity.
>
Potions or survive, potions or survive? Once I realized
quaffing unidentified potions was a bad idea, they became
much less of a concern to me early. (i.e. from obsessive
compulsive to just compulsive about getting them.)


All good points, but many other spells can help greatly in
combat without risking breakage: Enchantment spells, magic
missile(of course), drain life, light, detect monster, healing
spells, protection, jumping, haste self, even detect treasure
lets you spend less time exploring a level.

Force bolt gets regulated early to boulder/statue smashing,
secret door finding, floating eye killing, and offensive
use only when I know what's in the way. (Skilled spell
of detect monster or blinded with telepathy would help
you there.)


>My most recent wizard to reach mines end emerged in
>a crowd. A couple of V's, a couple of D's where one
>turned out to be an adult (polymorph trap on level)
>were in the crowd. I whacked a few monsters, got
>down to half of my hit points, retreated up a few
>levels to rest. Went back down again, whacked some
>more and so on. I only blasted with my best attack
>spell after clearing out most of the crowd. Lesson
>learned - explore fully charged and Zap away like
>crazy. Don't burn it all on altar camping until I'm
>on the way back *up* out of the mines.

Well, that last is what I do. Not to mention running
whenever Pwr gets a little low. Emergencies show up
when you're not prepared for them.

I'm usually at experience level 10/11 at that point.
Possibly the Hp/Pwr gains to that point, along with
skill enhancement and general effects of level gain
turn the corner on handling the Gnomish Mines?

Of course, I usually have a buff pet or two still at that
point. Most of the time I spend exploring while Fluffy and
Phydeaux enjoy themselves playing with their food.

(From the sound of it "Zap away like crazy" you don't keep pets
to this point.)

Your original strategy would not have occurred to me.
Using the luckstone to keep luck generated by altar camping
always seemed the obvious thing to do. (I'm no longer
convinced of that. May try my next sacrifest without
the luckstone in my main inventory. Should help avoid
getting crowned.)

Crowds seem the best place to use force bolt, magic missile,
sleep, slow monster, charm monster, etc. because you can affect
more than one hostile at a time.

Telepathy with a controlled way of blinding/unblinding yourself
would also let you avoid hitting nymphs. It would also let you
use force bolt with maximum efficiency: hitting two or more
monsters lined up appropriately. (I love lining orcs up in
corridors, then letting fly with force bolt.)


--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 3:45:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> >My simplistic view as that the V's on the variant of
> >mine town are monsters somewhat out of depth. They
> >are stronger than most other monsters on that level
> >and thus a "serious danger". Overly simplistic.
>
> Overly simplistic perhaps, still accurate. Especially
> for those without MC###.

Yet another reason MC=3 cloak is a top early priority
for me for all classes to the point I am not much
interested in displacement.

> Daggers are way under used by players as ranged weapons.
> (Heck, *rocks* are way under used by players as ranged weapons.)
> Especially in those classes that can advance the skill. Yes,
> by late mid-game for a wizard they're almost completely
> overshadowed by spells, but daggers help *get* you to the point
> that they're no longer useful.

Before I understood that advancing dagger skill
meant throwing more, my characters generally
carried enough rocks in the mines they were just
barely not Burdened. It was enough rocks to
throw them at everything that moved, avoiding
peacefulls until a level got clear enough that
I could decide if a peacefull was likely to have
some good items. Even my lawfull characters are
more interested in items than maxed alignment
while clearing the mines.

> (Thank Anhur the DevTeam made Magicbane a dagger skill.)

Otherwise we'd be throwing knives and had
spare crysknives. As long as a wizard can get
to Expert in the first gift, dagger or knife
would not matter to me. The separation of
dagger and knife in skills was the death of
crysknives as much as the introduction of
artifacts was the death of crysknives.

> >There's a much less important reason that I hesitate
> >to blast away wildly with my most powerfull attack
> >spell when first arriving at mines end. It's dark and
> >I don't want to blast nymphs in a way that breaks
> >their mirrors (mirrors are too value for controlling
> >luck and too risky when you don't know you changed
> >your luck).
>
> Expand on luck controlling please? I've seen previous
> discussiongs but now I may be ready to try it.

Controlled luck is something I learned on RGRN.

Giving numbers is spoily enough that I've only
posted on the topic in ROT13. Your current luck
can be known. Luckstone gives +3, each clover at
an altar gives +1, uncursed or blessed luckstone
carried means once you know your value it never
changes. Break mirror for -2, kill a coaligned
unicorn for +5.

The deal is the effects from a prayer are based on
a random number and your luck. Above some luck
value and there's a chance or either getting crowned
or getting no effect. Below some number there is
no risk of getting crowned. Effects can include
a spellbook gift (wonderfull for spellcasters of
dubious use for combat wombats), increased AC
(wonderfull for everyone) and so on down the line.

Once you know your exact desired best effect, you
can do the arithmatic based on the spoilers or
the source code and decide your exact desired
numerical luck. Either start out at +0, add the
luckstone for +3 then start counting clovers,
or add the luckstone, max out your clovers then
start counting down from +13 by killing friendly
unicorns and/or breaking mirrors.

The problem is you never know when your prayer
timeout is expired so your luck can drift up.
Allow that and you'll get crowned. So count,
set to your range, and every clover that puts
you into crowning range break a mirror. All
that and you'll still forget to record a clover
here and there and eventually get crowned
anyways, sigh. Put there is plenty of AC and
spellbooks to be gotten crowned or not.

> >I also don't want to smash whatever
> >potions or whatever in the vicinity.
>
> Potions or survive, potions or survive? Once I realized
> quaffing unidentified potions was a bad idea, they became
> much less of a concern to me early. (i.e. from obsessive
> compulsive to just compulsive about getting them.)

Knowing certain monsters generally carry certain
potions makes quaffing that type less risky.
it's one low-risk quaff.

> Of course, I usually have a buff pet or two still at that
> point. Most of the time I spend exploring while Fluffy and
> Phydeaux enjoy themselves playing with their food.
>
> (From the sound of it "Zap away like crazy" you don't keep pets
> to this point.)

I used to lock pets in the first or second shop to
be rid of them. Now I like to take them down to
mine town and wait until they die gloriously in combat
because they happen to get between the watch captain
and a surviving watchmen. I do not tend to recruit
new pets for the rest of the game unless I am in a
huge crowd of major nasties.

> Your original strategy would not have occurred to me.
> Using the luckstone to keep luck generated by altar camping
> always seemed the obvious thing to do. (I'm no longer
> convinced of that. May try my next sacrifest without
> the luckstone in my main inventory. Should help avoid
> getting crowned.)

Not me idea, something I picked up on RGRN and
then read the source and did the arithmatic.
Doing a sac-fest without a luckstone will still
take you to max, it will just be harder to know
your exact score.
!