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Really lucky start

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Anonymous
August 30, 2005 7:12:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

I'm currently playing a dwarven valkyrie (valk was a random choice,
and dwarven was because I like infravision).

Level 2 has an armor shop, from which my cat stole for me a cloak
of displacement, for which I was very glad.
Since I was dwarven I decided to go for minetown as soon as I found
mine's entrance, to see what awaited me there. The altar is
co-aligned, and the food shop has, among all things, an ice box
with corpses fresh enough to be sacrificed in it! So I sacrificed
two monsters I killed in mintown, bought a corpse in the food shop
(6 zorkmids, I can afford that!) and sacrificed it, and voila,
Mjollnir (first time I have it, it seems like an awfully nice weapon.
I also have found two different lamps so I know one of them is
magic (it's the most expensive one, right!), and with a co-aligned
altar I will have no problem making holy water to bless it.

So things really do look good for this game.

More about : lucky start

Anonymous
August 30, 2005 12:09:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Douglas Henke wrote:
> For plain old damage per turn, it's up there with the big boys. The
> conventional wisdom is that Greyswandir is better, especially in the
> late game. I like Vorpy or the Tsurugi, just because I like to cackle
> evilly when I one-hit-kill some annoying teleport-to-stairs monster.
> Magicbane is also stupidly powerful, though much more subtle.

Frost Brand is also better than Mjollnir. But it's one of the 5-6 best
weapons in the game, and depending on how you rate them maybe 3rd after
Grayswandir and Frost Brand.

> But, you use the tools you have. In your position, I'd be tempted to
> use your second-best weapon for the general population, and switch to
> Mjollnir for things that are an actual threat.

Good idea since Mjollnir can destroy wands, rings, potions, etc. Just
as long as you actually remember to switch to it when anything remotely
dangerous is around.
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 6:45:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"chlorine" <chlorine@free.fr> writes:
> Mjollnir (first time I have it, it seems like an awfully nice weapon.[)]

The major drawback is that it can destroy inventory loot of your
opponents. (OTOH, taking more turns to kill them gives them a chance
to use up that loot to help themselves or hurt you, e.g. by drinking
or throwing potions.) Doesn't change death drops, AFAIK.

Throwing it can be handy, if you meet all the right preconditions.
Beware, as the air is full of hungry ghosts whispering stories about
how their Mjollnir landed in a lava pool and they died trying to
retrieve it.

For plain old damage per turn, it's up there with the big boys. The
conventional wisdom is that Greyswandir is better, especially in the
late game. I like Vorpy or the Tsurugi, just because I like to cackle
evilly when I one-hit-kill some annoying teleport-to-stairs monster.
Magicbane is also stupidly powerful, though much more subtle.

But, you use the tools you have. In your position, I'd be tempted to
use your second-best weapon for the general population, and switch to
Mjollnir for things that are an actual threat.
Related resources
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 7:13:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 2005-08-30, sjdevnull@yahoo.com wrote:
> Frost Brand is also better than Mjollnir. But it's one of the 5-6 best
> weapons in the game, and depending on how you rate them maybe 3rd after
> Grayswandir and Frost Brand.
>
> Douglas Henke wrote:
>> But, you use the tools you have. In your position, I'd be tempted to
>> use your second-best weapon for the general population, and switch to
>> Mjollnir for things that are an actual threat.
>
> Good idea since Mjollnir can destroy wands, rings, potions, etc. Just
> as long as you actually remember to switch to it when anything remotely
> dangerous is around.
>
Mjollnir cannot destroy potions, and I think "etc" also is the empty set
in this case. FB, OTOH, _does_ destroy potions.

--
Jann Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
http://www.stud.uni-goettingen.de/~s251251
BOFH Excuse #187:
Reformatting Page. Wait...
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 7:55:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

sjdevnull@yahoo.com wrote:
> Douglas Henke wrote:
>
> > For plain old damage per turn, it's up there with the big boys. The
> > conventional wisdom is that Greyswandir is better, especially in the
> > late game. I like Vorpy or the Tsurugi, just because I like to cackle
> > evilly when I one-hit-kill some annoying teleport-to-stairs monster.
> > Magicbane is also stupidly powerful, though much more subtle.
>
> Frost Brand is also better than Mjollnir. But it's one of the 5-6 best
> weapons in the game, and depending on how you rate them maybe 3rd after
> Grayswandir and Frost Brand.
>
> > But, you use the tools you have. In your position, I'd be tempted to
> > use your second-best weapon for the general population, and switch to
> > Mjollnir for things that are an actual threat.
>
> Good idea since Mjollnir can destroy wands, rings, potions, etc. Just
> as long as you actually remember to switch to it when anything remotely
> dangerous is around.

Managing skills slots is important strategy.

Valks can get to Expert in dagger, long sword and hammer, to
Basic in saber, and to assorted other levels in a bunch of
less interesting other stuff. The other stuff is there to
distract you and get you to waste slots IMO.

Because daggers are for throwing and Experts throw as many
as 3 daggers per throw, it's a good idea to advance dagger
early and often. Taken to an extreme that could be getting
dagger all the way to Expert before enhancing any other
weapons class then maybe alternating between long sword
and hammer, then enhancing twoweapon when all of those
3 are Expert. In practice I tend to enhance long sword
and/or hammer once early on and then resuming their
advance as soon as dagger hits Expert.

Since the very best weapons in the game are mostly long
swords it is a very good idea to advance long sword to
Expert early on even if you do have Mojo. Since the
single best weapon in the game is the silver saber
Greyswandir and Valks can only get to Basic (Greyswandir
is best even at Basic), it is a very good idea to max
out saber skill with the first silver saber you encounter.
Even if it's Werebanse or the watch captain leaves you
a silver saber in her will, it's worth advancing in the
hopes of getting Greyswandir later.

So there's a fun ambiguous mix: You want to eventually
max out dagger, long sword, hammer (all Expert), saber
and possibly something like pickaxe (to Basic). Plus
twoweapon. Later there will still be skill slots
avilable that could be spent on a spell school, polearms,
maybe even bare handed combat. What's the priority?

I tend towards a compromise near the center of the
extremes. Enhance long sword, hammer, saber once when
first informed. Enhance dagger every time offered up
to Expert, and throw daggers constantly to get up there.
Then I alternate between long sword and hammer until
either is Expert. Then twoweapon until it is maxxed.
Then get to Expert in the other. Then and only then
will I start advancing stuff for style reasons.

Pickaxe and bare-handed get used often enough by me
that they end up being style reasons for me. Same
with attack spells (cone of cold rules), and whatever
other artifact classes come to hand. All only after
dagger, sword, saber, hammer and twohanded are maxed.

There are a lot of other good skill slot strategies but
that one's mine for Valks.
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 8:08:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

sjdevnull@yahoo.com wrote:
> Douglas Henke wrote:
>
> > For plain old damage per turn, it's up there with the big boys. The
> > conventional wisdom is that Greyswandir is better, especially in the
> > late game. I like Vorpy or the Tsurugi, just because I like to cackle
> > evilly when I one-hit-kill some annoying teleport-to-stairs monster.
> > Magicbane is also stupidly powerful, though much more subtle.
>
> Frost Brand is also better than Mjollnir. But it's one of the 5-6 best
> weapons in the game, and depending on how you rate them maybe 3rd after
> Grayswandir and Frost Brand.

Valks are never chaotic but they can get to Expert in
dagger. Some classes that can get to Expert in dagger
it's worth it to name Sting very early on. What do
folks who play Valks think about using Sting very
early on? Doing that has no effect on getting Mojo as
the first gift.

I've tried it both ways with my Valk characters. With
the nice initial weapons I don't get the impression
that it helped much to have Sting very early on.

My best Valk tried to collect as many artifacts as
possible and she had most of the lawfull and unaligned
ones by the time the quadratic growth of the odds made
getting any more unrealistic. Having blessed genocided
L's the only neutral artifact that would ever arrive
was Mojo and maybe something in the planes or from a
vast number of attempted wishes. Then I finally gave
up and took Sting and Orcrist. By then neither
mattered in the least as anything other than treasure
bag stuffers.

Have folks who play a lot of Valks and do take Sting
early on tend to do better than not taking Sting
early on? If anything it seems to have lowered my
chances of surviving into the mid-game.
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 10:41:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1125414582.383438.316330@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
sjdevnull@yahoo.com says...
> Good idea since Mjollnir can destroy wands, rings, potions,
>
Mojo only destroys rings and wands. FB only destroys potions. I happen to
have just read that bit of the code.
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 12:10:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:41:15 GMT, Andrew Kerr
<andykerr@SPAMGUARD.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <1125414582.383438.316330@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>sjdevnull@yahoo.com says...
>> Good idea since Mjollnir can destroy wands, rings, potions,
>>
>Mojo only destroys rings and wands. FB only destroys potions. I happen to
>have just read that bit of the code.

FB? or FB? Frostbrand just does potions. Firebrand I believe
does potions and scrolls (and presumably spellbooks).

The original poster spoke of Frostbrand as an alternative
to...Frostbrand. There may have been some confusion there.


--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 3:41:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1125442546.335474.93860@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, Doug
Freyburger says...
>
> Managing skills slots is important strategy.

Agreed.

> Because daggers are for throwing and Experts throw as many
> as 3 daggers per throw, it's a good idea to advance dagger
> early and often. Taken to an extreme that could be getting
> dagger all the way to Expert before enhancing any other
> weapons class then maybe alternating between long sword
> and hammer, then enhancing twoweapon when all of those
> 3 are Expert. In practice I tend to enhance long sword
> and/or hammer once early on and then resuming their
> advance as soon as dagger hits Expert.
>
>
I'm skeptical of the benefit of getting melee weapons to Expert. Going from
Basic to Skilled makes a very noticeable difference in the early game (e.g.
hitting killer bees), but it is my impression that by the time a character
can get to Expert the chances of missing a hit are small anyway, and the +1
damage makes little difference.

Multi shot weapons (daggers etc) obviously should be maxed if used, as
should twoweapon, lance and perhaps polearm.

I haven't played Valk for ages, but if I were to now I'd get dagger and
twoweapon up to max, hammer/longsword to Skilled but no more.

The chance to hit when twoweaponing is based on the least of skills in
twoweapon and the primary weapon, so advance twoweapon immediately
following whatever the primary weapon is. Daggers are +2 to hit, so dagger
or artifact for primary weapon. Practice twoweapon on non threats until the
Valk can actually hit stuff.

I may also want to advance riding along with lance and/or polearm. Jousting
is fun, and rather effective.
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 2:41:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Doug Freyburger wrote:
> Because daggers are for throwing and Experts throw as many
> as 3 daggers per throw, it's a good idea to advance dagger
> early and often.

Definitely.

> Since the very best weapons in the game are mostly long
> swords it is a very good idea to advance long sword to
> Expert early on even if you do have Mojo. Since the
> single best weapon in the game is the silver saber
> Greyswandir and Valks can only get to Basic (Greyswandir
> is best even at Basic), it is a very good idea to max
> out saber skill with the first silver saber you encounter.

Disagree. I advance my starting weapon to skilled, but I'm not going
to mess around with some silver saber I find laying around. If I get
Greyswandir it'll take almost no time to get to basic. And if I get
one of the longswords that's better than Mojo then I can advance to
expert afterwards. But there's no real point burning those slots
beforehand.
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 3:55:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Andrew Kerr wrote:
> Doug Freyburger says...
>
> > Because daggers are for throwing and Experts throw as many
> > as 3 daggers per throw, it's a good idea to advance dagger
> > early and often. Taken to an extreme that could be getting
> > dagger all the way to Expert before enhancing any other
> > weapons class then maybe alternating between long sword
> > and hammer, then enhancing twoweapon when all of those
> > 3 are Expert. In practice I tend to enhance long sword
> > and/or hammer once early on and then resuming their
> > advance as soon as dagger hits Expert.
>
> I'm skeptical of the benefit of getting melee weapons to Expert. Going from
> Basic to Skilled makes a very noticeable difference in the early game (e.g.
> hitting killer bees), but it is my impression that by the time a character
> can get to Expert the chances of missing a hit are small anyway, and the +1
> damage makes little difference.

I was glad to see two folks posting with well thought out
disagreements to me. Thanks for the training in both
cases.

Interesting that you aren't interested in reaching Expert
at wielded weapons. I've always considered that more
skilled equals better and I never looked closely at what
the price would be.

> Multi shot weapons (daggers etc) obviously should be maxed if used, as
> should twoweapon, lance and perhaps polearm.
>
> I haven't played Valk for ages, but if I were to now I'd get dagger and
> twoweapon up to max, hammer/longsword to Skilled but no more.

Since getting to XP=30 a Valk gets enough slots to hit
Expert at dagger, sword plus hammer and still have plenty
left over for twoweapon and still have spares, I never
considered other options.

> The chance to hit when twoweaponing is based on the least of skills in
> twoweapon and the primary weapon, so advance twoweapon immediately
> following whatever the primary weapon is. Daggers are +2 to hit, so dagger
> or artifact for primary weapon. Practice twoweapon on non threats until the
> Valk can actually hit stuff.
>
> I may also want to advance riding along with lance and/or polearm. Jousting
> is fun, and rather effective.

Unskilled and basic with lance or polearm only allows attacks
straight on. Skilled allows attacks semi-diagonal like a
knight's jump. Expert allows anywhere within 2 squares (to
include adjacent? That would rule) and apparently only knights
can get to Expert only in lance and no one can get to Expert
in polearms.

If a Valk were to skip Expert in anything but daggar, that
would free up a bunch of extra slots. Expert in dagger for
the machine-gun effect. Skilled in sword, hammer, twoweapon.
It would would leave a lot of extra options.

A Valk on a silver dragon wielding a halberd or spetum.
Throwing daggers and/or Mjollnir at range. Maxed out in both
spell casting schools for any attack spells that show up.
At range 1 she'd end up 3-weaponing not 2-weaponing. A
super artifact Grey, Frosty, Mojo, silver saber, dragon
claws. Cool.
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 3:05:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1125514509.514850.20100@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Doug
Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo.com> says...

> Interesting that you aren't interested in reaching Expert
> at wielded weapons. I've always considered that more
> skilled equals better and I never looked closely at what
> the price would be.

That used to be my attitude too. It changed over the last couple of weeks
from looking more closely at the spoilers, reading rgrn and getting to high
level more often. Skilled -> Expert gives +1 to hit and +1 to damage. It
takes 3 slots, the same as Unskilled -> Basic -> Skilled for a total of +6
to hit and +3 to damage. I just don't think Expert is worth it.

One annoying thing with declining to advance skills is that Nethack doesn't
inform you when more skills are available to enhance.

> Unskilled and basic with lance or polearm only allows attacks
> straight on. Skilled allows attacks semi-diagonal like a
> knight's jump. Expert allows anywhere within 2 squares (to
> include adjacent? That would rule)

Not including adjacent AFAIK, unless mounted of course.

> and apparently only knights
> can get to Expert only in lance and no one can get to Expert
> in polearms.

Correct. The knight's move attack is the most useful anyway, as the target
cannot hit back if trapped.

Increasing skill in Lance increases the chance of Jousting when meleeing on
a mount, from 20% at unskilled to 80% at expert.

> A Valk on a silver dragon wielding a halberd or spetum.

A bardiche does the most damage to large monsters, and is a little lighter
than a halberd. I'd rather have a lance at skilled though - 60% of melee
hits are jousts for +d20 damage and 1 space knockback. Could twoweapon with
it too, provided the lance is primary. Jousting with secondary weapon does
something like +2d2 damage.

There are often lances in Ludios or the Castle.
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 3:05:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:05:55 GMT, Andrew Kerr
<andykerr@SPAMGUARD.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <1125514509.514850.20100@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Doug
>Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo.com> says...
>

<snipperion>

>One annoying thing with declining to advance skills is that Nethack doesn't
>inform you when more skills are available to enhance.

EXPN?

>
>> Unskilled and basic with lance or polearm only allows attacks
>> straight on. Skilled allows attacks semi-diagonal like a
>> knight's jump. Expert allows anywhere within 2 squares (to
>> include adjacent? That would rule)
>
>Not including adjacent AFAIK, unless mounted of course.
>
>> and apparently only knights
>> can get to Expert only in lance and no one can get to Expert
>> in polearms.
>
>Correct. The knight's move attack is the most useful anyway, as the target
>cannot hit back if trapped.
>

The remote attacks would seem ideal for combining with #jumping
to always keep untrapped opponents at the correct distance.

Has anyone tried this?


(Just a jumping fool. :-)

--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 11:56:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Andrew Kerr wrote:
> Doug Freyburger says...
>
> > Interesting that you aren't interested in reaching Expert
> > at wielded weapons. I've always considered that more
> > skilled equals better and I never looked closely at what
> > the price would be.
>
> That used to be my attitude too. It changed over the last couple of weeks
> from looking more closely at the spoilers, reading rgrn and getting to high
> level more often. Skilled -> Expert gives +1 to hit and +1 to damage. It
> takes 3 slots, the same as Unskilled -> Basic -> Skilled for a total of +6
> to hit and +3 to damage. I just don't think Expert is worth it.

Numerical analysis using hard data. Tastes great,
more fullfilling. ;^)

> One annoying thing with declining to advance skills is that Nethack doesn't
> inform you when more skills are available to enhance.

I disagree. If I decline to enhance long sword and then I
switch to broadsword, it will tell me when "You feel more
confident in your skills" with the broadsword. It only
declines to tell you when you become able to enhance twice
in the same class. More importantly it will issue messages
like "You feel more experienced. Welcome to level 24. You
feel more confident in the skills."

What would be nice is a message suggesting that once more
skill slots open you will be able to enhance them, so I
don't completely disagree just partially disagree. Doing
an #enhance command under 3.4.x now shows which skills are
maxed out (it doesn't get them right every time so you need
to know what you maxes are in every class to figure out what
ones are really maxed) and also which ones are subject to
enhancement once there are more skill slots available. So
the information is available. The information has to be
polled since there are no messages.

> > and apparently only knights
> > can get to Expert only in lance and no one can get to Expert
> > in polearms.
>
> Correct. The knight's move attack is the most useful anyway, as the target
> cannot hit back if trapped.

This does suggest a strategy using a polearm or lance
and constantly jumping around to avoid getting hit in
melee, as Jove mentioned. Could be a good early strategy
by a knight using the first polearm or lance or a fun
mid-game strategy once jumping boots are encountered.
Thinking about it I am dubious that it would be worth an
early wish to ask for blessed +3 fireproof boots of jumping.

> > A Valk on a silver dragon wielding a halberd or spetum.
>
> A bardiche does the most damage to large monsters, and is a little lighter
> than a halberd. I'd rather have a lance at skilled though - 60% of melee
> hits are jousts for +d20 damage and 1 space knockback. Could twoweapon with
> it too, provided the lance is primary. Jousting with secondary weapon does
> something like +2d2 damage.
>
> There are often lances in Ludios or the Castle.

Neither halberd nor bardiche nor lance are in the list of
4 types gotten from trolls - ranseur, partisan, glaive,
spetum. So it looks like the more common spetum would be
the starter and later switch to lance or bardiche.
Anonymous
September 1, 2005 8:11:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1125586597.018710.298460@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Doug
Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo.com> says...
> > One annoying thing with declining to advance skills is that Nethack doesn't
> > inform you when more skills are available to enhance.
>
> I disagree. If I decline to enhance long sword and then I
> switch to broadsword, it will tell me when "You feel more
> confident in your skills" with the broadsword. It only
> declines to tell you when you become able to enhance twice
> in the same class. More importantly it will issue messages
> like "You feel more experienced. Welcome to level 24. You
> feel more confident in the skills."
>
>
In that case, there must have been many messages passing unnoticed by me.

There's probably a lesson in there somewhere...
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 1:55:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 1 Sep 2005 07:56:37 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
<dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Andrew Kerr wrote:
>> Doug Freyburger says...
>>
>> > Interesting that you aren't interested in reaching Expert
>> > at wielded weapons. I've always considered that more
>> > skilled equals better and I never looked closely at what
>> > the price would be.
>>
>> That used to be my attitude too. It changed over the last couple of weeks
>> from looking more closely at the spoilers, reading rgrn and getting to high
>> level more often. Skilled -> Expert gives +1 to hit and +1 to damage. It
>> takes 3 slots, the same as Unskilled -> Basic -> Skilled for a total of +6
>> to hit and +3 to damage. I just don't think Expert is worth it.
>
>Numerical analysis using hard data. Tastes great,
>more fullfilling. ;^)

Right on. While I'm a great proponent of even one more point
of damage per hit, three skill slots can definitely be too high a
price.

I know I've held off advancing spell skills to expert because
of the skill slot cost. Now an early wizard advancing dagger
skill to expert becomes questionable. Three more skill slots
for advancing a wizard's spell skills in the mid-game look mighty
good.

On the one hand, the current strategy of advancing dagger to
Expert asap definitely works. On the other hand, now that
I'm using daggers so much better, Expert's probably not
necessary.

On the gripping hand a primary stack of at least five daggers,
or two stacks of 3-4 each, would be necessary to really take
advantage of expert dagger skill (which is something I'd noticed
before), since on a given turn you can only throw what's in your
current stack of daggers.

So don't #enhance dagger to expert until you've got the
stack(s) to justify it. Then do so only if it seems necessary.
Eventually I'll probably end up going to expert, just as I
maximize strength and enchant Magicbance to +6/7, to get
Magicbane to where it's worth using as a weapon.

(In my last game, there were no enchant weapon scrolls until
late. The difference between +0 Magicbane and +5 Magicbane is
very noticable, and very welcome. And at +5 Magicbane still
offers the chance of cancellation, which surprised me when it
happened.)
differe



>
>> One annoying thing with declining to advance skills is that Nethack doesn't
>> inform you when more skills are available to enhance.
>
>I disagree. If I decline to enhance long sword and then I
>switch to broadsword, it will tell me when "You feel more
>confident in your skills" with the broadsword. It only
>declines to tell you when you become able to enhance twice
>in the same class. More importantly it will issue messages
>like "You feel more experienced. Welcome to level 24. You
>feel more confident in the skills."
>
>What would be nice is a message suggesting that once more
>skill slots open you will be able to enhance them, so I
>don't completely disagree just partially disagree. Doing
>an #enhance command under 3.4.x now shows which skills are
>maxed out (it doesn't get them right every time so you need
>to know what you maxes are in every class to figure out what
>ones are really maxed) and also which ones are subject to
>enhancement once there are more skill slots available. So
>the information is available. The information has to be
>polled since there are no messages.

I had enough trouble working out the skill system in the
first place that I habitually check the #enhance screen
every so often.

>
>> > and apparently only knights
>> > can get to Expert only in lance and no one can get to Expert
>> > in polearms.
>>
>> Correct. The knight's move attack is the most useful anyway, as the target
>> cannot hit back if trapped.
>
>This does suggest a strategy using a polearm or lance
>and constantly jumping around to avoid getting hit in
>melee, as Jove mentioned. Could be a good early strategy
>by a knight using the first polearm or lance or a fun
>mid-game strategy once jumping boots are encountered.
>Thinking about it I am dubious that it would be worth an
>early wish to ask for blessed +3 fireproof boots of jumping.

No, definitely not. Without polearms or jousting jumping
is just a nice extra. Especially as polearms are unlikely
to be more than just a nice tool, wonderful in the appropriate
situation, but not a serious weapon for anyone other than
an aficiando.

But for knights that get *both*, from the start, for free,
jumping and jousting almost look like they were designed for each
other.

Proper use of #jumping and jousting might make the knight one
of the easiest early classes.



<snip discussion of polearms>

--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 2, 2005 11:07:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:

> [ jousting, jumping ]

> [...] for knights that get *both*, from the start, for free,
> jumping and jousting almost look like they were designed for each
> other.

Jousting may be free, jumping definately is *not*.

Every time you #jump, you consume a random extra amount of food, varying
from 1 to 25. Move by jumping only, and you'll consume an average of 13
extra points per move, instead of the normal 1.

If you use the spell to jump, it costs even *more* food. Jumping a lot
is a good way to starve.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me
Anonymous
September 3, 2005 8:50:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 19:07:19 +0200, "Boudewijn Waijers"
<kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:

>Jove wrote:
>
>> [ jousting, jumping ]
>
>> [...] for knights that get *both*, from the start, for free,
>> jumping and jousting almost look like they were designed for each
>> other.
>
>Jousting may be free, jumping definately is *not*.
>
>Every time you #jump, you consume a random extra amount of food, varying
>from 1 to 25. Move by jumping only, and you'll consume an average of 13
>extra points per move, instead of the normal 1.
>
>If you use the spell to jump, it costs even *more* food. Jumping a lot
>is a good way to starve.
>

True, I should have restricted it to jumping while jousting.

It looks like jumping while jousting should have a strong
synergistic effect in battle. #apply lance to hit monster at
range greater than one. When monster steps into melee range,
#jump to appropriate square (if any) to open the range.
Repeat.

Looks like under ideal circumstances the knight should be able
to hit without getting hit back, the best possible circumstances
for a fight. (Thanks to the polearm discussions for showing me
polearms/lances can do this.)


Looks like jousting while jumping needs to be restricted to
emergency situations. But if that's the only practice at j&j
a knight gets it will take a long time (i.e. many deaths) to
get good enough at it to survive in an emergency. (Or stopping
and thinking before each move, like in chess. But what are the
odds of that? :-)

Still, knights start with a lot of food. If it comes down
to jumping or dying with food, not jumping is more like bones
stuffing (Which would let a knight who found the bones jump.)

True, since a knight's starting food is perfect for taming
ponies/horses/warhorses the food should be probably be reserved
for that. (Starving pets of the horse ilk will eat food
rations.)



Averaging 13 points of nutrition per knight jump means an 800
nutrition point food ration gives 800/13 = 61 jumps per food
ration. That seems plenty for killing a number of monsters
by jumping while jousting. (I say killing instead of fighting,
because if you're hitting a monster that can't hit you back,
it's not really fighting, is it. :-)

Apples/carrots have 50 nutrition, which averages 3.8
jumps, enough to get out of most emergency situations.
(To put that into perspective, a fortune cookie has 40!)

NB 50 points of nutrition won't keep your steed alive that
much longer. Save these to tame new steeds later in the game
when you can use the relatively more plentiful food rations
to keep them alive.

A food ration will keep your steed alive 800/50 = 16 times
longer than an apple/carrot. Knights start with:

10 to 20 uncursed apples
10 to 20 uncursed carrots

Which gives average nutrition of: ((15 + 15)*50)/800 =
(30*50)/800 = 1500/800 = 15/8 = 1.875 food ration equivalents.

Since jumping takes resources (nutrition), (like magic uses
mana, wands use charges, scrolls/potions get used up) it should
only be used when appropriate.


Summary:

Jumping while applying the lance at a distance can permit
hitting without being hit back. (This is useful. ;^)

Jumping is excellent for expeditious retreats. (Also useful.)

Nutrition aspects:

- A jump averages 13 nutrition points consumed.

- A food ration gives 800 nutrition points= 60 jumps. Enough
for several emergency situations.

- An apple/pear gives 50 nutrition points = 3.8 jumps. Enough
for one emergency escape.

- Ponies/horses/warhorses will eat food rations if hungry
enough -

- The 800 nutrition from a food ration will keep a pony,
horse, or warhorse alive 16 times longer than the 50
nutrition from an apple/pear.

- Food rations will eventually become plentiful. Apples/
pears are much less likely.

- Apples/pears can tame replacement ponies/horses/warhorses.
Food rations cannot.

- Get down off yer bleedin' high horse and eat what you kill,
yer daft bugger! (;^)




If it comes down to jump or die, jump. If that means it comes
down to eat the starting food or die, then eat the starting food.


Pilots have a saying: "Die by your instruments."


Nethack's saying should be more like:


"Die unburdened, with no useful consumables left."

("It's better to burn out, than leave a good bones file.")


--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 3, 2005 10:28:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <am7ih1lttg85g6n6vqrvaj2be6kchqdpao@4ax.com>, Jove
<invalid@invalid.invalid> says...
> It looks like jumping while jousting should have a strong
> synergistic effect in battle. #apply lance to hit monster at
> range greater than one. When monster steps into melee range,
> #jump to appropriate square (if any) to open the range.
> Repeat.
>
I quick bit of pedantry concerning terminology.

You are using "jousting" to refer to #applying a polearm or lance to hit a
target at range.

The in game messages refer to "jousting" as the effect sometimes resulting
from a melee hit with a lance whilst #riding, doing +d20 damage and
throwing back the target.

BTW, the most effective way I've found of using polearms/lances as a main
weapon in the early game is to be invisible. Those monsters without see
invisible wander around aimlessly when close to the player, making it easy
to keep them within #applying range.
Anonymous
September 3, 2005 12:00:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 06:28:39 GMT, Andrew Kerr
<andykerr@SPAMGUARD.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <am7ih1lttg85g6n6vqrvaj2be6kchqdpao@4ax.com>, Jove
><invalid@invalid.invalid> says...
>> It looks like jumping while jousting should have a strong
>> synergistic effect in battle. #apply lance to hit monster at
>> range greater than one. When monster steps into melee range,
>> #jump to appropriate square (if any) to open the range.
>> Repeat.
>>
>I quick bit of pedantry concerning terminology.
>
>You are using "jousting" to refer to #applying a polearm or lance to hit a
>target at range.
>

Maybe pedantic, but definitely necessary. Too bad "jumping
and applying" doesn't have that same ring to it. I know! "Float
like a butterfly, sting like a bee."

>The in game messages refer to "jousting" as the effect sometimes resulting
>from a melee hit with a lance whilst #riding, doing +d20 damage and
>throwing back the target.
>
>BTW, the most effective way I've found of using polearms/lances as a main
>weapon in the early game is to be invisible. Those monsters without see
>invisible wander around aimlessly when close to the player, making it easy
>to keep them within #applying range.

Looks like applying the lance all by itself can be useful
against slow monsters, too.


Thanks very much for the correction.




--
All the best,

Jove
!