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YANI: When escaping the dungeon, keep 1 item for start of ..

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Anonymous
September 12, 2005 5:37:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

YANI: When escaping the dungeon, keep 1 item for start of next
game

When you escape the dungeon without the Amulet of Yendor,
you get to choose 1 item you escaped with to add to your starting
inventory at the beginning of the next game.

- Containers start empty at beginning of next game.

- Encourages survival.

- Gives newbies a feeling of control (WRONG! ;^) and
achievement.

- Just one item means can't build up AK bit by bit.

- Consolation prize for those who accidentally escape
without the AoY.

- "Ooh, Grayswandir on Dlvl 1! I'll grab it, then come
back with it as a Neutral Tourist." "You are blasted by
Grayswandir's power! DYWYPI?"


--
All the best,

Jove

More about : yani escaping dungeon item start

September 12, 2005 5:37:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

It would be the same thing as a WoW 0:3, in the most easily-abusable
case of alternating between discovery mode and normal play. A good
thought, but one that would unbalance the game quite a bit, IMHO.
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 5:37:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Here's an idea: when ever a character leaves the dungeon a random item
(or some gold) from their inventorie has a chance of being added to a
file that will evenwally be placed back into a starting characters
inventorie. Sort of like a bones file. Prehapes only non-artefacts
could be transmited in this way and wands would have some charges
drained from them ("I told little Timmy not to touch my wand of fire,
but did he listen? NOOO....") Lawful characters would have a higher
chance of donating, but will likly donate gold instead of an item,
whereas chaotics will rarly donate but will almost always donate an
item. A nice touch would be if a character is more likly to recive a
donation from another character of the same race and alinment. A
message telling who donated the item and when would be nice too....to
make it a bit less broken you could randomly add one level of rust to
some items due to disuse. A VERY cool thing would be a herse type
utility so that other people charaters would donate....
Related resources
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 7:27:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[YANI: keep one item for your next game if you escape without the
Amulet]
> - Encourages survival.

Encourages abandoning the proper do-or-die playstyle that leads to success.

> - Just one item means can't build up AK bit by bit.

That's OK. My valkyries quite like the look of my wizards' cloaks of
magic resistance.

> - Consolation prize for those who accidentally escape
> without the AoY.

Nethack doesn't *do* consolation prizes.

> - "Ooh, Grayswandir on Dlvl 1! I'll grab it, then come
> back with it as a Neutral Tourist." "You are blasted by
> Grayswandir's power! DYWYPI?"

*snicker*
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ in the metal and blood in the scent and mascara on a backcloth of
\ / lashes and scars in a flood of your tears in sackcloth and ashes
\/ -- Sisters of Mercy, "Flood I"
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 7:50:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 12 Sep 2005 15:27:07 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
<mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>[YANI: keep one item for your next game if you escape without the
>Amulet]
>> - Encourages survival.
>
>Encourages abandoning the proper do-or-die playstyle that leads to success.
^^^

There's your problem right there. Dead characters tend to do
very little, unless they were lucky enough to be wearing an
amulet of life saving. And even then, whatever killed them the
first time is usually still around.

Encouraging the "doing" is what I'm talking about.


(Do dead players coming back in bones files as mummies, wraiths
or vampires count as dead? And why doesn't a player killed by a
vampire continue *as* a vampire, with a new vampire pet?)

There have been posts of players who didn't *do*, but they
didn't die either. They just kept hanging around until they got
the candles/levitation/reflection/etc. they needed to continue
doing.



"Do and NOT die" seems to be Marvin's motto. He seems worthy
of emulation.

And the main trick to not dying in the game, imho, is to learn
to recognize when you are in over your head, then bravely RUNNING
AWAY!.

And success in the game means descending into the dungeon, then
returning up to escape it, all while staying alive, or only being
dead for as long as it takes an amulet of life saving to return
you to life. ("'e's NOT dead. 'e's waiting on the amulet of
life saving." ;-)


(As for encouraging players to believe that dying in the game
"leads to success".... :-)


>
>> - Just one item means can't build up AK bit by bit.
>
>That's OK. My valkyries quite like the look of my wizards' cloaks of
>magic resistance.

That fine, my wizards quite like the look of valkyries +3 small
shields.

Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
that much. That's something else players need to learn.

>
>> - Consolation prize for those who accidentally escape
>> without the AoY.
>
>Nethack doesn't *do* consolation prizes.

Hence your impression that dying in the game is a good
alternative. :^D

Escaping the dungeon without the amulet has always been
a consolation prize. Players unable to do the Quest have
been advised to get the Candelabra and Book of the Dead
and then escape the dungeon with them as even more of a
consolation prize.


(And what about escaping in Celestial Disgrace? ;-)


>
>> - "Ooh, Grayswandir on Dlvl 1! I'll grab it, then come
>> back with it as a Neutral Tourist." "You are blasted by
>> Grayswandir's power! DYWYPI?"
>
>*snicker*

Ain't that the truth. Great items at the start of the game
usually just mean a *more* embarrassing death.

--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 8:04:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 12 Sep 2005 15:27:07 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
<mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>[YANI: keep one item for your next game if you escape without the
>Amulet]
>> - Encourages survival.
>
>Encourages abandoning the proper do-or-die playstyle that leads to success.
^^^

There's your problem right there. Dead characters tend to do
very little, unless they were lucky enough to be wearing an
amulet of life saving. And even then, whatever killed them the
first time is usually still around.

Encouraging the "doing" is what I'm talking about.


(Do dead players coming back in bones files as mummies, wraiths
or vampires count as dead? And why doesn't a player killed by a
vampire continue *as* a vampire, with a new vampire pet?)

There have been posts of players who didn't *do*, but they
didn't die either. They just kept hanging around until they got
the candles/levitation/reflection/etc. they needed to continue
doing.



"Do and NOT die" seems to be Marvin's motto. He seems worthy
of emulation.

And the main trick to not dying in the game, imho, is to learn
to recognize when you are in over your head, then bravely RUNNING
AWAY!.

And success in the game means descending into the dungeon, then
returning up to escape it, all while staying alive, or only being
dead for as long as it takes an amulet of life saving to return
you to life. ("'e's NOT dead. 'e's waiting on the amulet of
life saving." ;-)



Posters here have rarely, if ever, been urged to die in the
game. (And I don't think they should be. :-)

Most posters asking for help are trying desperately *not*
to die in the game. The advice given them is usually intended
to help them survive. ("Eating a green slime is very
educational." :-)

All the YASD and YAAD posts here are bemoaning dying in the
game, not celebrating it.

I don't think players should be told that dying is a good way
to end a game. (Much less encouraged to believe it will "lead to
success" ;-)

>
>> - Just one item means can't build up AK bit by bit.
>
>That's OK. My valkyries quite like the look of my wizards' cloaks of
>magic resistance.

That fine, my wizards quite like the look of valkyries +3 small
shields.

Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
that much. That's something else players need to learn.

Players will do what they want with the game. Copying the
save file, then #quitting so DYWYPI will identify items is one
way to take advantage of game mechanics. There are others.

(The only way to get people to do as they're told is to
tell them "Do whatever you like. Now, try and disobey that!"
Because they'll do both of those things anyway. :-)

"Under the most carefully controlled enviromental
characteristics, the organism will do as it damn well pleases."
- Harvard law of biological research" ;-)

>
>> - Consolation prize for those who accidentally escape
>> without the AoY.
>
>Nethack doesn't *do* consolation prizes.

Hence your impression that dying in the game is a good
alternative. :^D

Escaping the dungeon without the amulet has always been
a consolation prize. Players unable to do the Quest have
been advised to get the Candelabra and Book of the Dead
and then escape the dungeon with them as even more of a
consolation prize.


(And what about escaping in Celestial Disgrace? ;-)


>
>> - "Ooh, Grayswandir on Dlvl 1! I'll grab it, then come
>> back with it as a Neutral Tourist." "You are blasted by
>> Grayswandir's power! DYWYPI?"
>
>*snicker*

Ain't that the truth. Great items at the start of the game
usually just mean a *more* embarrassing death.

--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 8:55:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> YANI: When escaping the dungeon, keep 1 item for start of next
> game

This is about the same as giving out a free wish, isn't it?
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 9:40:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:55:42 +0000 (UTC), Nan Wang
<nwang@panix.com> wrote:

>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> YANI: When escaping the dungeon, keep 1 item for start of next
>> game
>
>This is about the same as giving out a free wish, isn't it?

Sort of, but it's not *free*. The player has to descend a
ways, find something worth keeping, and then escape *alive*
with it. In general, the better the item, the more work the
player gives up for that one starting item in the next game.

And the player only gets to keep either a piece of starting
equipment or something they found.

Unless the player starts one class solely for the sake of
getting one of its starting items to use in another game.
Perhaps set the restriction that 1k turns must have passed, or
the player must have gone at least to either Mine Town or the
Oracle level.

Or even that it not be from the starting equipment from that
game, including the carryover item.


So the player has to *earn* the item by surviving while
searching, exploring, and escaping.

And once the player gets something worth escaping with, the
question becomes *when* to escape. After all, they'll be giving
up all the character development they've been doing, whatever
nice features there are in the current dungeon (altar, shops,
etc.), and all but *one* item to start a brand new weakling
character.


Give the player a reason to focus on *immediate* survival and
escaping tough situations. "Just one more hit" may become a less
attractive option when the player has something to lose besides
just another throw-away game of Nethack.

They'll have something immediate and tangible, something *they*
chose, to lose if they let the character die.

And it gives the player a reason to keep the character alive
other than the remote hope of ascension. Essentially to do
away with the "do or die" attitude that gets characters killed.

A tough bones file on Dlvl 4 with Yeenoghu from a fountain
quaffer is no longer a reason to "do or die". A near-starting
character is highly unlikely to destroy Yeenoghu. Right now
each individual game is "all or nothing" so they might as well
try and die to no real purpose.

Perhaps some of us have forgotten that feeling of despair.

If it "about the same as giving out a free wish", then
everyone would start with Greyswandir, the blessed PYEC,
the Eye of Aethiopica, staff of Aescapulius, etc. Players
who get those and then escape the dungeon are giving up
one hell of a lot for that great item for a starting character.

And if someone want's to play a wizard, do the Quest, and
get the "AoE for their starting Valkyrie, they've earned it.



So (hopefully ;-) they'll pay more attention to staying alive
once they've found something worthwhile. Instead of the frantic
search for something that will keep them alive. And they'll
be paying more attention to their escape route(s). (Something
marvin has said he does all the time.)


Thanks, Nan, for bringing out that it *is* kind of like a wish,
one the player has to work to earn, and then sacrifice (maybe
greatly) to keep.



--
All the best,

Jove
September 12, 2005 10:00:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
news:0h7bi1d9envn6pa14t6sjmvp32h8u34cf1@4ax.com:

>>> - Just one item means can't build up AK bit by bit.
>>
>>That's OK. My valkyries quite like the look of my wizards' cloaks of
>>magic resistance.
>
> That fine, my wizards quite like the look of valkyries +3 small
> shields.
>
> Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
> that much. That's something else players need to learn.

I disagree. I've found DSM makes a huge difference for my players. Even
poor combat classes can survive being reckless if they have those 9+
points of AC on their side.
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 10:00:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 12 Sep 2005 10:39:23 -0700, "Lester"
<WestSideLester@hotmail.com> wrote:

>It would be the same thing as a WoW 0:3, in the most easily-abusable
>case of alternating between discovery mode and normal play. A good
>thought, but one that would unbalance the game quite a bit, IMHO.



Excellent point. Explore mode would be excluded from this.
And starting wands of wishing would just ensure embarrassing
deaths, judging from posts to this newsgroup. ;^)

Early wishes from quaffing fountains or found WoW are listed
time and again in YASD posts. Ditto for great equipment from
bones files.

This idea that a single great item is an insta-win does not
seem to be supported by the available evidence. (I know my
own experience doesn't support it. ;^)

If one great item early guaranteed an ascension, then wizards
CoMR and non-elven rangers CoD would have far higher ascension
percentages than they do now. Other classes would just have to
finish sokoban for the prize. Or anyone smart enough to scribble
Elbereth in the dust would ascend every time. This does not seem
to be the case.


It's player skills that matter. Items can help, sure, but much
more so if the player knows how to use them. And the most
important player skill is the ability to survive. (Few
ascensions end in character death, for example. :-)

I think we need to get away from focussing on items as being
the equivalent of insta-wins and starting telling players to
keep their characters alive in the short term, so that they
can win in the long term. This proposed modification would
provide motivation for that.


"As for "unbalancing the game quite a bit", try ascending in
explore mode. I really don't think anyone has ever done it,
even with the ability to always resurrect in addition to a
starting wand of wishing.)

Marvin can apparently ascend almost any game he chooses to,
regardless of starting equipment. Or luck in finding equipment.
It's not what you have, it's what you do with it. (Or *don't* do,
more than likely :-)



--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 10:36:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:00:01 +0000 (UTC), Seraphim
<gme6@cornell.edu> wrote:

>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
>news:0h7bi1d9envn6pa14t6sjmvp32h8u34cf1@4ax.com:
>
>>>> - Just one item means can't build up AK bit by bit.
>>>
>>>That's OK. My valkyries quite like the look of my wizards' cloaks of
>>>magic resistance.
>>
>> That fine, my wizards quite like the look of valkyries +3 small
>> shields.
>>
>> Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
>> that much. That's something else players need to learn.
>
>I disagree. I've found DSM makes a huge difference for my players. Even
>poor combat classes can survive being reckless if they have those 9+
>points of AC on their side.


You are quite correct, thanks. (I misstated my case. ;-)

Yes, it can make a huge difference, especially in the early
game. And even more so as the player (hopefully) displayed
some skill in the previous game to be able to pass it on to
the next game.

But starting DSM doesn't guarantee ascension, or anything like
it. (It might for a demi-god, but they probably wouldn't be
doing this anyway.) A reckless player will just get more
reckless to make up for it.

And it takes a *lot* of AC to make up for completely ignoring
Hp loss. (Ask me how I know. ;-) Ask anyone who's been frozen
by a floating eye. :-)

And all players have the equivalent *now* with Elbereth. (Many
posters consider Elbereth too powerful. But I've died standing
on Magicbane engraved Elbereth before.) But there is no flood
of YAFAPs praising Elbereth.

Most (all?) non-ascended players that get DSM from an early
wish fail to ascend, unless their skills are just getting good
enough to take full advantage of it.

Watch some games on NAO. Players get items that I know could
keep them alive, but they just don't use them, or don't use them
properly. (I was surprised just recently in a thread started by
Ilmari Karonen. He knew his ring of levitation was diamond and
therefor that he could engrave with it. The ring, not a hard
gem. You don't see that much. He kept a mirror on hand for
nymphs, and a leash for his pet. Someone posted and recommended
he dump all three of those items.)

(Here's an idea for NAO. Have Marvin (or the equivalent) play
a short demonstration game, to be recorded, for each class. Then
add those game recordings to the list of games to watch, for the
entertainment/edification of viewers. Or just replay the last
ascension on NAO and have it on the list of games to watch.)


My point is that starting DSM isn't an insta-win, or even close
to it. And the player will have had to get it in the first
place, then give up everything else in that game, to start with
it in the next game.

It's highly likely they would have been better off continuing
the original game, unless they made ascension impossible in it.
Then passing on that one item to their next starting character
is a Pyrrhic victory. (A victory that is offset by staggering
losses.)


Yes, you are absolutely correct DSM is great. But for the vast
majority of non-ascendeds it wouldn't make the difference between
winning and losing. (Not to mention the average newbie. :-)

(An advanced demi-god wouldn't even need the DSM.)

For many players the emphasis on this or that particular piece
of equipment as the key to the game is misplaced. I once found
Mjollnir and [GoP as a Valk on Dlvl 3. I never got off that
level. I was like a six year old with an Indy car.

So I've changed my advice for early characters to 1) stay alive
2) improve AC. (So we're really in furious agreement about the
value of AC points. :-)

So let low/non skilled players choose to earn their own reward,
one commensurate with their deserts, while building their skills
and learning to survive.



--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 10:47:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Seraphim wrote:
> Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
> news:0h7bi1d9envn6pa14t6sjmvp32h8u34cf1@4ax.com:
[inheriting gear from escaped characters]
>>
>> Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
>>that much. That's something else players need to learn.
>
>
> I disagree. I've found DSM makes a huge difference for my players. Even
> poor combat classes can survive being reckless if they have those 9+
> points of AC on their side.

Plus magic resistance or reflection or other resistance of your
choice. DSM is a huge, huge advantage. Getting my hands on a suit is
usually the turning point in any game where I manage it fairly early
(usually from a lamp or throne wish), especially for the caster classes,
who escape the spells vs. AC dilemma thereby.

But in the proposed scenario, you'd still need to *find* the DSM
in order to pass it on to your next character. And, having done so, I
don't believe I see the advantage of passing it on to another character
instead of just using it with your current character. The early part of
the game is the deadliest part. Giving up a character who's already
gotten past that in order to give a single piece of their gear to a
character who will then have to go through it all again (albeit with an
advantage) does not strike me as a sound strategy.

I don't think this plan would encourage any kind of actual
playstyle. It'd just encourage people starting up characters,
immediately escaping the dungeon, and passing handy bits of their
starting gear (Wizard's CoMR or other magical gear, Valk's shield,
Ranger's CoD, whatever) on to other classes.

--
John Campbell
jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com
Anonymous
September 12, 2005 11:45:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
> I think we need to get away from focussing on items as being the
> equivalent of insta-wins and starting telling players to keep their
> characters alive in the short term, so that they can win in the long
> term. This proposed modification would provide motivation for that.

During the Edo period, Marvin stayed for a time at Engaku. While he
was there, a novice came to him, complaining that nethack was far too
difficult and that ascension seemed impossibly far-off.

Marvin smiled and said, "I too died many times before I first
ascended."

The novice departed, only to return some weeks later. He said, "I have
died many thousands of times. Orcs and ants assault me on all
sides. Fountains yield demons. I abandon my pet on Dlvl. 1 and yet
starve to death. Chests kill me when I kick them open. Grid bugs do
not fall, even when I bravely get in One More Hit(tm). Yet for all
these deaths, I have gotten no further in the game."

Marvin beat the novice over the head repeatedly with his keyboard.
When the beating was over, they both looked at the screen and saw
that the keystrokes resulting from the blows had started a new game,
completed mines, sokoban and the Quest, and that the character had
been crowned Envoy of Balance and had most of a kit together.

Nobody was enlightened.
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 12:53:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:47:58 GMT, John Campbell
<jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com> wrote:

>Seraphim wrote:
>> Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
>> news:0h7bi1d9envn6pa14t6sjmvp32h8u34cf1@4ax.com:
>[inheriting gear from escaped characters]
>>>
>>> Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
>>>that much. That's something else players need to learn.
>>
>>
>> I disagree. I've found DSM makes a huge difference for my players. Even
>> poor combat classes can survive being reckless if they have those 9+
>> points of AC on their side.
>
> Plus magic resistance or reflection or other resistance of your
>choice. DSM is a huge, huge advantage. Getting my hands on a suit is
>usually the turning point in any game where I manage it fairly early
>(usually from a lamp or throne wish), especially for the caster classes,
>who escape the spells vs. AC dilemma thereby.
>
> But in the proposed scenario, you'd still need to *find* the DSM
>in order to pass it on to your next character. And, having done so, I
>don't believe I see the advantage of passing it on to another character
>instead of just using it with your current character. The early part of
>the game is the deadliest part. Giving up a character who's already
>gotten past that in order to give a single piece of their gear to a
>character who will then have to go through it all again (albeit with an
>advantage) does not strike me as a sound strategy.

Thanks.

>
> I don't think this plan would encourage any kind of actual
>playstyle. It'd just encourage people starting up characters,
>immediately escaping the dungeon, and passing handy bits of their
>starting gear (Wizard's CoMR or other magical gear, Valk's shield,
>Ranger's CoD, whatever) on to other classes.


Wooden shoe no hit, the one guy who supports any part of my
reasoning pretty much convinces me it won't work.




--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 4:59:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> There have been posts of players who didn't *do*, but they
>didn't die either. They just kept hanging around until they got
>the candles/levitation/reflection/etc. they needed to continue
>doing.

Looking for stuff to continue your quest constitutes "doing".

> Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
>that much. That's something else players need to learn.

On the other hand, a wand of wishing (0:3) in the hands of a
halfway-competent player like me pretty much guarantee one's passage
to the Castle or thereabouts:

For a Valkyrie:
2 blessed scrolls of charging
a blessed +2 silver dragon scale mail
*wear DSM; now safe from rays*
a blessed tin of green dragon meat
*eat dragon meat; now safe from poison instakills*
*recharge*
a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
*wear cloak; now safe from polytrap inconveniences and wands of striking*
a blessed fireproof +2 speed boots
*wear boots; now safe from slow-moving monsters - which is most
low-level monsters - unless surrounded*
a blessed rustproof +2 gauntlets of power
*wear gauntlets; now safe from cockatrice handling*
*wrest*
2 blessed potions of full healing
*now have panic buttons*

For a Healer:
2 blessed scrolls of charging
a blessed +2 silver dragon scale mail
a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
a blessed fireproof +2 speed boots
a blessed rustproof +2 helm of brilliance
a blessed amulet of ESP
*do protection racket and then gain a couple of levels*
*wrest*
the blessed +2 Grayswandir

Ascending these characters will not be remotely interesting.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ in the metal and blood in the scent and mascara on a backcloth of
\ / lashes and scars in a flood of your tears in sackcloth and ashes
\/ -- Sisters of Mercy, "Flood I"
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 6:17:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Canageek wrote:
> Here's an idea: when ever a character leaves the dungeon a random item
> (or some gold) from their inventorie has a chance of being added to a
> file that will evenwally be placed back into a starting characters
> inventorie. Sort of like a bones file. Prehapes only non-artefacts
> could be transmited in this way and wands would have some charges
> drained from them ("I told little Timmy not to touch my wand of fire,
> but did he listen? NOOO....") Lawful characters would have a higher
> chance of donating, but will likly donate gold instead of an item,
> whereas chaotics will rarly donate but will almost always donate an
> item. A nice touch would be if a character is more likly to recive a
> donation from another character of the same race and alinment. A
> message telling who donated the item and when would be nice too....to
> make it a bit less broken you could randomly add one level of rust to
> some items due to disuse. A VERY cool thing would be a herse type
> utility so that other people charaters would donate....

That's a much better idea. You can't just throw away a wizard to have
your valkyrie start with cloak of MR, variety is added to, and the
frequency could be rare enough that it wouldn't be more unbalancing
than a bones file (less, probably). There should also be a restriction,
so that only characters above a certain level leave "gifts" when they
escape, in the same manner that bones files are only possible below a
certain level.
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 8:25:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 13 Sep 2005 02:17:12 -0700, "vintermann"
<vintermann@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Canageek wrote:
>> Here's an idea: when ever a character leaves the dungeon a random item
>> (or some gold) from their inventorie has a chance of being added to a
>> file that will evenwally be placed back into a starting characters
>> inventorie. Sort of like a bones file. Prehapes only non-artefacts
>> could be transmited in this way and wands would have some charges
>> drained from them ("I told little Timmy not to touch my wand of fire,
>> but did he listen? NOOO....") Lawful characters would have a higher
>> chance of donating, but will likly donate gold instead of an item,
>> whereas chaotics will rarly donate but will almost always donate an
>> item. A nice touch would be if a character is more likly to recive a
>> donation from another character of the same race and alinment. A
>> message telling who donated the item and when would be nice too....to
>> make it a bit less broken you could randomly add one level of rust to
>> some items due to disuse. A VERY cool thing would be a herse type
>> utility so that other people charaters would donate....
>
>That's a much better idea. You can't just throw away a wizard to have
>your valkyrie start with cloak of MR, variety is added to, and the
>frequency could be rare enough that it wouldn't be more unbalancing
>than a bones file (less, probably). There should also be a restriction,
>so that only characters above a certain level leave "gifts" when they
>escape, in the same manner that bones files are only possible below a
>certain level.

And if equipment in the characters' starting inventory is
restricted from the original idea? (That restriction would
probably include the "inherited" item, to encourage improving
on it.)

--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 11:29:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 13 Sep 2005 00:59:13 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
<mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> There have been posts of players who didn't *do*, but they
>>didn't die either. They just kept hanging around until they got
>>the candles/levitation/reflection/etc. they needed to continue
>>doing.
>
>Looking for stuff to continue your quest constitutes "doing".

Good point, albeit doing so slowly sometimes that's it's
almost indistinguishable from waiting around for that seventh
candle for the Candelabrum to be generated.

>
>> Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
>>that much. That's something else players need to learn.
>
>On the other hand, a wand of wishing (0:3) in the hands of a
>halfway-competent player like me pretty much guarantee one's passage
>to the Castle or thereabouts:
>
>For a Valkyrie:
>2 blessed scrolls of charging
>a blessed +2 silver dragon scale mail
>*wear DSM; now safe from rays*
>a blessed tin of green dragon meat
>*eat dragon meat; now safe from poison instakills*
>*recharge*
>a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
>*wear cloak; now safe from polytrap inconveniences and wands of striking*
>a blessed fireproof +2 speed boots
>*wear boots; now safe from slow-moving monsters - which is most
>low-level monsters - unless surrounded*
>a blessed rustproof +2 gauntlets of power
>*wear gauntlets; now safe from cockatrice handling*
>*wrest*
>2 blessed potions of full healing
>*now have panic buttons*
>
>For a Healer:
>2 blessed scrolls of charging
>a blessed +2 silver dragon scale mail
>a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
>a blessed fireproof +2 speed boots
>a blessed rustproof +2 helm of brilliance
>a blessed amulet of ESP
>*do protection racket and then gain a couple of levels*
>*wrest*
>the blessed +2 Grayswandir
>

You're correct of course. I should have said "Not guaranteed
an Ascension to a non-demigod." A starting (0:3) wand of wishing
in the hands of a player that knows what to wish for and how to
use the resulting items can make a big difference.


But there are a lot of players that wouldn't know what to wish
for, nor be able to use the resulting items effectively. (That's
why there's a wishing spoiler. ;^)


>Ascending these characters will not be remotely interesting.

Not to you, so You Wouldn't Do That Then. Going for artifacts
or items just to make the game less frustrating or more enjoyable
(which would vary from player to player), or trying a conduct
seem like a much better idea in that case.

I'll bet a lot of non-demigods, especially complete newbies,
would love to try some of your starting setups though :-).

And it might well be worth setting up some explore mode save
files like that so players that want to could try it.


Regardless, you are quite correct a starting (0:3) Wand of
Wishing would make a big difference in the game. I was wrong.
:-Þ (;^D)



--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 4:56:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 02:17:12 -0700, vintermann wrote:

> That's a much better idea. You can't just throw away a wizard to have your
> valkyrie start with cloak of MR, variety is added to, and the frequency
> could be rare enough that it wouldn't be more unbalancing than a bones
> file (less, probably). There should also be a restriction, so that only
> characters above a certain level leave "gifts" when they escape, in the
> same manner that bones files are only possible below a certain level.

I'd say it should be something like a ((level - 1) in 9) chance that an
item gets saved. If you got a character up to level 10, you'd be
guaranteed to leave an item for the next character. Maybe then have, say,
a 10% chance that the item left is random rather than the one selected, or
perhaps make that dependent on the highest dungeon level reached? Nah,
that's probably defeating the purpose, I think. "You have inherited: A
rock." "Good grief!"

It would make it possible to add side-goals like "Send a dwarven
archaeologist down to gather money" and have loot all the vaults, etc, and
leave it for a later player to buy protection/items/whatever.. It would
allow newbies to do a treasure-hunt-type side-game instead of banging
their heads against the "how far can I get?" problem. They could try "How
good of an item can I get?" for a change of pace.

--
- Mantar --- Drop YourPantiesSirWilliam to email me.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 5:12:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 00:56:26 GMT, "Mantar, Feyelno nek dusa"
<mantar.feyelno@YourPantiesSirWilliamfrontiernet.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 02:17:12 -0700, vintermann wrote:
>
>> That's a much better idea. You can't just throw away a wizard to have your
>> valkyrie start with cloak of MR, variety is added to, and the frequency
>> could be rare enough that it wouldn't be more unbalancing than a bones
>> file (less, probably). There should also be a restriction, so that only
>> characters above a certain level leave "gifts" when they escape, in the
>> same manner that bones files are only possible below a certain level.

Since vintermann didn't quote any context, I'm not sure what is
regarded as "a much better idea." Random selection of item to
be passed on to the next character? Or possibly restricting
starting inventory items from the current game as being left
behind.

The idea of using XP level as the threshold seems the best yet.
And there's possibly a consensus coming together that a threshold
is needed. Using the bones threshold as a supporting example is
excellent.


>
> I'd say it should be something like a ((level - 1) in 9) chance that an
>item gets saved. If you got a character up to level 10, you'd be
>guaranteed to leave an item for the next character. Maybe then have, say,
>a 10% chance that the item left is random rather than the one selected, or
>perhaps make that dependent on the highest dungeon level reached? Nah,
>that's probably defeating the purpose, I think. "You have inherited: A
>rock." "Good grief!"

YANI: The Great Pumpkin

A softer threshold with probability of success tied to it.
Completely random does seem a little too unfair.

Perhaps the player gets to choose ten or so items as possible
to be left, then random choice partly based on XP level? No,
still too likely to be a rock and "defeating the purpose."
then

>
> It would make it possible to add side-goals like "Send a dwarven
>archaeologist down to gather money" and have loot all the vaults, etc, and
>leave it for a later player to buy protection/items/whatever.. It would
>allow newbies to do a treasure-hunt-type side-game instead of banging
>their heads against the "how far can I get?" problem. They could try "How
>good of an item can I get?" for a change of pace.


That is describing what I had hoped to achieve with the
original YANI. (Only with a much better idea of how to do it.
;^) Good to see responses making suggestions to improve the idea.

Get players used to the idea of setting a goal and achieving it
while exploring and surviving, then getting out with the goods.
Then using that result to try to achieve another goal.

Presumably, at some point they'll realize, just before they
exit the dungeon, that their current character/items would be
better for achieving the next goal than starting with a brand
new character, even with the item of their choice from their
current game. ;^)

(As someone said about a BoH explosion: If you #quit, you'll
start a new game with a character a lot worse off than yours is
now. So why not just continue this game and pretend it *is* a
new game, only with much better starting stats and equipment.)


Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far.



--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 3:56:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Jove wrote:

> The idea of using XP level as the threshold seems the best yet.
> And there's possibly a consensus coming together that a threshold
> is needed. Using the bones threshold as a supporting example is
> excellent.

> > I'd say it should be something like a ((level - 1) in 9) chance that an
> >item gets saved. If you got a character up to level 10, you'd be
> >guaranteed to leave an item for the next character. Maybe then have, say,
> >a 10% chance that the item left is random rather than the one selected, or
> >perhaps make that dependent on the highest dungeon level reached? Nah,
> >that's probably defeating the purpose, I think. "You have inherited: A
> >rock." "Good grief!"
>
> YANI: The Great Pumpkin
>
> A softer threshold with probability of success tied to it.
> Completely random does seem a little too unfair.
>
> Perhaps the player gets to choose ten or so items as possible
> to be left, then random choice partly based on XP level? No,
> still too likely to be a rock and "defeating the purpose."
> then

Maybe, like bonefile, the loading of the item should not be automatical
and items from a very old character can be loaded (several legacy being
saved simultaneously in order to have some choice). This would avoid
choosing an item perfectly fitting the character you're intending to play.

But that might also be considered as defecting the purpose (by trying to
avoid abuse from more experienced players).

And if you want, you may even have (part of) the description of a very old
item forgotten...

a - a gray stone named "Ye old magical stone brought back from the
dungeon by Jym the first, founder of the dynasty, several centuries ago.
Nobody knows why it's called 'magical' but we hope that you'll find out
during your journey and come back to tell us. Since this is the symbol of
our kingdom, if you die during the attempt, you'll also be guilty of the
death of all our people, good luck Jym the 232th."

--
Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

Adresse mail plus valide à partir de septembre 2005.
Utiliser l'adresse de redirection permanente :
Jean-Yves.Moyen `at` ens-lyon.org
Anonymous
September 21, 2005 7:28:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Martin Read wrote:
> On the other hand, a wand of wishing (0:3) in the hands of a
> halfway-competent player like me pretty much guarantee one's passage
> to the Castle or thereabouts:

> For a Valkyrie:
> a blessed tin of green dragon meat

Poisoned-pit instadeaths are vanishingly rare; I don't think it is worth a
wish to guard against them. If I read the source correctly, they won't
ever show up before DL5; one could stay above that level until poison
resistance is obtained.

> For a Healer:
> 2 blessed scrolls of charging
> a blessed +2 silver dragon scale mail
> a blessed fireproof +2 speed boots

+3 gives more AC

> a blessed rustproof +2 helm of brilliance

Now, with helms of brilliance +2 is a better wish, both because you want
to increase the chance of getting at least _something_ right away, and
because in the long run it reduces the amount of ?oEA one needs to get to
+5 (which is far better than +4 when it comes to helms of brilliance).
Don't forget to wish for it greased.

> a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
> a blessed amulet of ESP

"holy greased eye of the Aethiopica" saves one wish here, and grants three
extra abilities, one of them exceedingly powerful. Magic resistance is
optional in the very early game, so waiting for this wish is no problem.

> *do protection racket and then gain a couple of levels*

The protection racket strikes me as a pointless risk here.

> the blessed +2 Grayswandir

At his point, I'd probably get a weapon from sacrifice and
save the remaining wishes.


--
"Ruleless 'law' will be a political weapon and control of the
judiciary will therefore be a political prize. 'Democracy' will
consist of the chaotic struggle to influence decision makers who are
not responsive to elections." -- Robert Bork
Anonymous
September 21, 2005 2:52:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Rast <rast2@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Martin Read wrote:
>> For a Valkyrie:
>> a blessed tin of green dragon meat
>
>Poisoned-pit instadeaths are vanishingly rare; I don't think it is worth a
>wish to guard against them. If I read the source correctly, they won't
>ever show up before DL5; one could stay above that level until poison
>resistance is obtained.

Dart trap instadeaths are even more rare - I've *never* had one - but
they can happen. The code says so. Since I am attempting to insure
this character against avoidable instadeaths, poison resistance is
important.

(There's an argument for working in a lizard corpse, but if you're very
fast, cockatrices are trivial to evade, since you're over three time as
fast as they are.)

>> a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
>> a blessed amulet of ESP
>
>"holy greased eye of the Aethiopica" saves one wish here, and grants three
>extra abilities, one of them exceedingly powerful. Magic resistance is
>optional in the very early game, so waiting for this wish is no problem.

I would never omit an MC source from my initial batch of wishes.

>> *do protection racket and then gain a couple of levels*
>
>The protection racket strikes me as a pointless risk here.

A XL1 character with a significant negative AC who is very fast,
reflective, magic-resistant, poison-resistant, and extrinsically
telepathic has nothing to fear between DL1 and Minetown that wouldn't
also be a major threat to an XL8 character.

>> the blessed +2 Grayswandir
>
>At his point, I'd probably get a weapon from sacrifice and
>save the remaining wishes.

Good point. I've had plenty of games where the only way to get a
coaligned altar was sacerdicide, though, and generally speaking I don't
like murdering temple priests.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
\ / "tempted white eyes blinded by the night hollow like the towers from the
\/ inside laura's a machine she's burning insane" fields of the nephilim
Anonymous
September 26, 2005 7:47:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Mabey it should come with a description in the legacy textbox. "As you
set out on your quest your wizend old <Insert gender apropriate title>
approches you and gives you a relic of his adventuring career: A
_______. Use it well..."
Anonymous
September 27, 2005 1:18:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Martin Read" <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:c+B*ATeZq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> Rast <rast2@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Martin Read wrote:
> >> For a Valkyrie:
> >> a blessed tin of green dragon meat
> >
> >Poisoned-pit instadeaths are vanishingly rare; I don't think it is worth
a
> >wish to guard against them. If I read the source correctly, they won't
> >ever show up before DL5; one could stay above that level until poison
> >resistance is obtained.
>
> Dart trap instadeaths are even more rare - I've *never* had one - but
> they can happen. The code says so. Since I am attempting to insure
> this character against avoidable instadeaths, poison resistance is
> important.
>
> (There's an argument for working in a lizard corpse, but if you're very
> fast, cockatrices are trivial to evade, since you're over three time as
> fast as they are.)
>
> >> a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
> >> a blessed amulet of ESP
> >
> >"holy greased eye of the Aethiopica" saves one wish here, and grants
three
> >extra abilities, one of them exceedingly powerful. Magic resistance is
> >optional in the very early game, so waiting for this wish is no problem.
>
> I would never omit an MC source from my initial batch of wishes.
>
> >> *do protection racket and then gain a couple of levels*
> >
> >The protection racket strikes me as a pointless risk here.
>
> A XL1 character with a significant negative AC who is very fast,
> reflective, magic-resistant, poison-resistant, and extrinsically
> telepathic has nothing to fear between DL1 and Minetown that wouldn't
> also be a major threat to an XL8 character.

If you were going to do that you could wish for a couple of !oFH or a
c?oGenocide.

> >> the blessed +2 Grayswandir
> >
> >At his point, I'd probably get a weapon from sacrifice and
> >save the remaining wishes.
>
> Good point. I've had plenty of games where the only way to get a
> coaligned altar was sacerdicide, though, and generally speaking I don't
> like murdering temple priests.
> --
> Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
> \_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
> \ / "tempted white eyes blinded by the night hollow like the towers from
the
> \/ inside laura's a machine she's burning insane" fields of the
nephilim
Anonymous
September 27, 2005 3:01:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"BWIGLEY" <bwigley@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>"Martin Read" <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
>news:c+B*ATeZq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>> A XL1 character with a significant negative AC who is very fast,
>> reflective, magic-resistant, poison-resistant, and extrinsically
>> telepathic has nothing to fear between DL1 and Minetown that wouldn't
>> also be a major threat to an XL8 character.
>
>If you were going to do that you could wish for a couple of !oFH or a
>c?oGenocide.

You'll notice that I did do the !oFH thing on the Valkyrie. The healer,
of course, starts the game with some potions of extra healing, which are
Good Enough for a level 1 character.

[And please trim for context.]
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
\ / "tempted white eyes blinded by the night hollow like the towers from the
\/ inside laura's a machine she's burning insane" fields of the nephilim
!