YANI: When escaping the dungeon, keep 1 item for start of ..

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

YANI: When escaping the dungeon, keep 1 item for start of next
game

When you escape the dungeon without the Amulet of Yendor,
you get to choose 1 item you escaped with to add to your starting
inventory at the beginning of the next game.

- Containers start empty at beginning of next game.

- Encourages survival.

- Gives newbies a feeling of control (WRONG! ;^) and
achievement.

- Just one item means can't build up AK bit by bit.

- Consolation prize for those who accidentally escape
without the AoY.

- "Ooh, Grayswandir on Dlvl 1! I'll grab it, then come
back with it as a Neutral Tourist." "You are blasted by
Grayswandir's power! DYWYPI?"


--
All the best,

Jove
25 answers Last reply
More about yani escaping dungeon item start
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    It would be the same thing as a WoW 0:3, in the most easily-abusable
    case of alternating between discovery mode and normal play. A good
    thought, but one that would unbalance the game quite a bit, IMHO.
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Here's an idea: when ever a character leaves the dungeon a random item
    (or some gold) from their inventorie has a chance of being added to a
    file that will evenwally be placed back into a starting characters
    inventorie. Sort of like a bones file. Prehapes only non-artefacts
    could be transmited in this way and wands would have some charges
    drained from them ("I told little Timmy not to touch my wand of fire,
    but did he listen? NOOO....") Lawful characters would have a higher
    chance of donating, but will likly donate gold instead of an item,
    whereas chaotics will rarly donate but will almost always donate an
    item. A nice touch would be if a character is more likly to recive a
    donation from another character of the same race and alinment. A
    message telling who donated the item and when would be nice too....to
    make it a bit less broken you could randomly add one level of rust to
    some items due to disuse. A VERY cool thing would be a herse type
    utility so that other people charaters would donate....
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    [YANI: keep one item for your next game if you escape without the
    Amulet]
    > - Encourages survival.

    Encourages abandoning the proper do-or-die playstyle that leads to success.

    > - Just one item means can't build up AK bit by bit.

    That's OK. My valkyries quite like the look of my wizards' cloaks of
    magic resistance.

    > - Consolation prize for those who accidentally escape
    > without the AoY.

    Nethack doesn't *do* consolation prizes.

    > - "Ooh, Grayswandir on Dlvl 1! I'll grab it, then come
    > back with it as a Neutral Tourist." "You are blasted by
    > Grayswandir's power! DYWYPI?"

    *snicker*
    --
    Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
    \_\/_/ in the metal and blood in the scent and mascara on a backcloth of
    \ / lashes and scars in a flood of your tears in sackcloth and ashes
    \/ -- Sisters of Mercy, "Flood I"
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 12 Sep 2005 15:27:07 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
    <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

    >Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    >[YANI: keep one item for your next game if you escape without the
    >Amulet]
    >> - Encourages survival.
    >
    >Encourages abandoning the proper do-or-die playstyle that leads to success.
    ^^^

    There's your problem right there. Dead characters tend to do
    very little, unless they were lucky enough to be wearing an
    amulet of life saving. And even then, whatever killed them the
    first time is usually still around.

    Encouraging the "doing" is what I'm talking about.


    (Do dead players coming back in bones files as mummies, wraiths
    or vampires count as dead? And why doesn't a player killed by a
    vampire continue *as* a vampire, with a new vampire pet?)

    There have been posts of players who didn't *do*, but they
    didn't die either. They just kept hanging around until they got
    the candles/levitation/reflection/etc. they needed to continue
    doing.


    "Do and NOT die" seems to be Marvin's motto. He seems worthy
    of emulation.

    And the main trick to not dying in the game, imho, is to learn
    to recognize when you are in over your head, then bravely RUNNING
    AWAY!.

    And success in the game means descending into the dungeon, then
    returning up to escape it, all while staying alive, or only being
    dead for as long as it takes an amulet of life saving to return
    you to life. ("'e's NOT dead. 'e's waiting on the amulet of
    life saving." ;-)


    (As for encouraging players to believe that dying in the game
    "leads to success".... :-)


    >
    >> - Just one item means can't build up AK bit by bit.
    >
    >That's OK. My valkyries quite like the look of my wizards' cloaks of
    >magic resistance.

    That fine, my wizards quite like the look of valkyries +3 small
    shields.

    Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
    that much. That's something else players need to learn.

    >
    >> - Consolation prize for those who accidentally escape
    >> without the AoY.
    >
    >Nethack doesn't *do* consolation prizes.

    Hence your impression that dying in the game is a good
    alternative. :^D

    Escaping the dungeon without the amulet has always been
    a consolation prize. Players unable to do the Quest have
    been advised to get the Candelabra and Book of the Dead
    and then escape the dungeon with them as even more of a
    consolation prize.


    (And what about escaping in Celestial Disgrace? ;-)


    >
    >> - "Ooh, Grayswandir on Dlvl 1! I'll grab it, then come
    >> back with it as a Neutral Tourist." "You are blasted by
    >> Grayswandir's power! DYWYPI?"
    >
    >*snicker*

    Ain't that the truth. Great items at the start of the game
    usually just mean a *more* embarrassing death.

    --
    All the best,

    Jove
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 12 Sep 2005 15:27:07 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
    <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

    >Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    >[YANI: keep one item for your next game if you escape without the
    >Amulet]
    >> - Encourages survival.
    >
    >Encourages abandoning the proper do-or-die playstyle that leads to success.
    ^^^

    There's your problem right there. Dead characters tend to do
    very little, unless they were lucky enough to be wearing an
    amulet of life saving. And even then, whatever killed them the
    first time is usually still around.

    Encouraging the "doing" is what I'm talking about.


    (Do dead players coming back in bones files as mummies, wraiths
    or vampires count as dead? And why doesn't a player killed by a
    vampire continue *as* a vampire, with a new vampire pet?)

    There have been posts of players who didn't *do*, but they
    didn't die either. They just kept hanging around until they got
    the candles/levitation/reflection/etc. they needed to continue
    doing.


    "Do and NOT die" seems to be Marvin's motto. He seems worthy
    of emulation.

    And the main trick to not dying in the game, imho, is to learn
    to recognize when you are in over your head, then bravely RUNNING
    AWAY!.

    And success in the game means descending into the dungeon, then
    returning up to escape it, all while staying alive, or only being
    dead for as long as it takes an amulet of life saving to return
    you to life. ("'e's NOT dead. 'e's waiting on the amulet of
    life saving." ;-)


    Posters here have rarely, if ever, been urged to die in the
    game. (And I don't think they should be. :-)

    Most posters asking for help are trying desperately *not*
    to die in the game. The advice given them is usually intended
    to help them survive. ("Eating a green slime is very
    educational." :-)

    All the YASD and YAAD posts here are bemoaning dying in the
    game, not celebrating it.

    I don't think players should be told that dying is a good way
    to end a game. (Much less encouraged to believe it will "lead to
    success" ;-)

    >
    >> - Just one item means can't build up AK bit by bit.
    >
    >That's OK. My valkyries quite like the look of my wizards' cloaks of
    >magic resistance.

    That fine, my wizards quite like the look of valkyries +3 small
    shields.

    Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
    that much. That's something else players need to learn.

    Players will do what they want with the game. Copying the
    save file, then #quitting so DYWYPI will identify items is one
    way to take advantage of game mechanics. There are others.

    (The only way to get people to do as they're told is to
    tell them "Do whatever you like. Now, try and disobey that!"
    Because they'll do both of those things anyway. :-)

    "Under the most carefully controlled enviromental
    characteristics, the organism will do as it damn well pleases."
    - Harvard law of biological research" ;-)

    >
    >> - Consolation prize for those who accidentally escape
    >> without the AoY.
    >
    >Nethack doesn't *do* consolation prizes.

    Hence your impression that dying in the game is a good
    alternative. :^D

    Escaping the dungeon without the amulet has always been
    a consolation prize. Players unable to do the Quest have
    been advised to get the Candelabra and Book of the Dead
    and then escape the dungeon with them as even more of a
    consolation prize.


    (And what about escaping in Celestial Disgrace? ;-)


    >
    >> - "Ooh, Grayswandir on Dlvl 1! I'll grab it, then come
    >> back with it as a Neutral Tourist." "You are blasted by
    >> Grayswandir's power! DYWYPI?"
    >
    >*snicker*

    Ain't that the truth. Great items at the start of the game
    usually just mean a *more* embarrassing death.

    --
    All the best,

    Jove
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    > YANI: When escaping the dungeon, keep 1 item for start of next
    > game

    This is about the same as giving out a free wish, isn't it?
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:55:42 +0000 (UTC), Nan Wang
    <nwang@panix.com> wrote:

    >Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    >> YANI: When escaping the dungeon, keep 1 item for start of next
    >> game
    >
    >This is about the same as giving out a free wish, isn't it?

    Sort of, but it's not *free*. The player has to descend a
    ways, find something worth keeping, and then escape *alive*
    with it. In general, the better the item, the more work the
    player gives up for that one starting item in the next game.

    And the player only gets to keep either a piece of starting
    equipment or something they found.

    Unless the player starts one class solely for the sake of
    getting one of its starting items to use in another game.
    Perhaps set the restriction that 1k turns must have passed, or
    the player must have gone at least to either Mine Town or the
    Oracle level.

    Or even that it not be from the starting equipment from that
    game, including the carryover item.


    So the player has to *earn* the item by surviving while
    searching, exploring, and escaping.

    And once the player gets something worth escaping with, the
    question becomes *when* to escape. After all, they'll be giving
    up all the character development they've been doing, whatever
    nice features there are in the current dungeon (altar, shops,
    etc.), and all but *one* item to start a brand new weakling
    character.


    Give the player a reason to focus on *immediate* survival and
    escaping tough situations. "Just one more hit" may become a less
    attractive option when the player has something to lose besides
    just another throw-away game of Nethack.

    They'll have something immediate and tangible, something *they*
    chose, to lose if they let the character die.

    And it gives the player a reason to keep the character alive
    other than the remote hope of ascension. Essentially to do
    away with the "do or die" attitude that gets characters killed.

    A tough bones file on Dlvl 4 with Yeenoghu from a fountain
    quaffer is no longer a reason to "do or die". A near-starting
    character is highly unlikely to destroy Yeenoghu. Right now
    each individual game is "all or nothing" so they might as well
    try and die to no real purpose.

    Perhaps some of us have forgotten that feeling of despair.

    If it "about the same as giving out a free wish", then
    everyone would start with Greyswandir, the blessed PYEC,
    the Eye of Aethiopica, staff of Aescapulius, etc. Players
    who get those and then escape the dungeon are giving up
    one hell of a lot for that great item for a starting character.

    And if someone want's to play a wizard, do the Quest, and
    get the "AoE for their starting Valkyrie, they've earned it.


    So (hopefully ;-) they'll pay more attention to staying alive
    once they've found something worthwhile. Instead of the frantic
    search for something that will keep them alive. And they'll
    be paying more attention to their escape route(s). (Something
    marvin has said he does all the time.)


    Thanks, Nan, for bringing out that it *is* kind of like a wish,
    one the player has to work to earn, and then sacrifice (maybe
    greatly) to keep.


    --
    All the best,

    Jove
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    news:0h7bi1d9envn6pa14t6sjmvp32h8u34cf1@4ax.com:

    >>> - Just one item means can't build up AK bit by bit.
    >>
    >>That's OK. My valkyries quite like the look of my wizards' cloaks of
    >>magic resistance.
    >
    > That fine, my wizards quite like the look of valkyries +3 small
    > shields.
    >
    > Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
    > that much. That's something else players need to learn.

    I disagree. I've found DSM makes a huge difference for my players. Even
    poor combat classes can survive being reckless if they have those 9+
    points of AC on their side.
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 12 Sep 2005 10:39:23 -0700, "Lester"
    <WestSideLester@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >It would be the same thing as a WoW 0:3, in the most easily-abusable
    >case of alternating between discovery mode and normal play. A good
    >thought, but one that would unbalance the game quite a bit, IMHO.


    Excellent point. Explore mode would be excluded from this.
    And starting wands of wishing would just ensure embarrassing
    deaths, judging from posts to this newsgroup. ;^)

    Early wishes from quaffing fountains or found WoW are listed
    time and again in YASD posts. Ditto for great equipment from
    bones files.

    This idea that a single great item is an insta-win does not
    seem to be supported by the available evidence. (I know my
    own experience doesn't support it. ;^)

    If one great item early guaranteed an ascension, then wizards
    CoMR and non-elven rangers CoD would have far higher ascension
    percentages than they do now. Other classes would just have to
    finish sokoban for the prize. Or anyone smart enough to scribble
    Elbereth in the dust would ascend every time. This does not seem
    to be the case.


    It's player skills that matter. Items can help, sure, but much
    more so if the player knows how to use them. And the most
    important player skill is the ability to survive. (Few
    ascensions end in character death, for example. :-)

    I think we need to get away from focussing on items as being
    the equivalent of insta-wins and starting telling players to
    keep their characters alive in the short term, so that they
    can win in the long term. This proposed modification would
    provide motivation for that.


    "As for "unbalancing the game quite a bit", try ascending in
    explore mode. I really don't think anyone has ever done it,
    even with the ability to always resurrect in addition to a
    starting wand of wishing.)

    Marvin can apparently ascend almost any game he chooses to,
    regardless of starting equipment. Or luck in finding equipment.
    It's not what you have, it's what you do with it. (Or *don't* do,
    more than likely :-)


    --
    All the best,

    Jove
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:00:01 +0000 (UTC), Seraphim
    <gme6@cornell.edu> wrote:

    >Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    >news:0h7bi1d9envn6pa14t6sjmvp32h8u34cf1@4ax.com:
    >
    >>>> - Just one item means can't build up AK bit by bit.
    >>>
    >>>That's OK. My valkyries quite like the look of my wizards' cloaks of
    >>>magic resistance.
    >>
    >> That fine, my wizards quite like the look of valkyries +3 small
    >> shields.
    >>
    >> Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
    >> that much. That's something else players need to learn.
    >
    >I disagree. I've found DSM makes a huge difference for my players. Even
    >poor combat classes can survive being reckless if they have those 9+
    >points of AC on their side.


    You are quite correct, thanks. (I misstated my case. ;-)

    Yes, it can make a huge difference, especially in the early
    game. And even more so as the player (hopefully) displayed
    some skill in the previous game to be able to pass it on to
    the next game.

    But starting DSM doesn't guarantee ascension, or anything like
    it. (It might for a demi-god, but they probably wouldn't be
    doing this anyway.) A reckless player will just get more
    reckless to make up for it.

    And it takes a *lot* of AC to make up for completely ignoring
    Hp loss. (Ask me how I know. ;-) Ask anyone who's been frozen
    by a floating eye. :-)

    And all players have the equivalent *now* with Elbereth. (Many
    posters consider Elbereth too powerful. But I've died standing
    on Magicbane engraved Elbereth before.) But there is no flood
    of YAFAPs praising Elbereth.

    Most (all?) non-ascended players that get DSM from an early
    wish fail to ascend, unless their skills are just getting good
    enough to take full advantage of it.

    Watch some games on NAO. Players get items that I know could
    keep them alive, but they just don't use them, or don't use them
    properly. (I was surprised just recently in a thread started by
    Ilmari Karonen. He knew his ring of levitation was diamond and
    therefor that he could engrave with it. The ring, not a hard
    gem. You don't see that much. He kept a mirror on hand for
    nymphs, and a leash for his pet. Someone posted and recommended
    he dump all three of those items.)

    (Here's an idea for NAO. Have Marvin (or the equivalent) play
    a short demonstration game, to be recorded, for each class. Then
    add those game recordings to the list of games to watch, for the
    entertainment/edification of viewers. Or just replay the last
    ascension on NAO and have it on the list of games to watch.)


    My point is that starting DSM isn't an insta-win, or even close
    to it. And the player will have had to get it in the first
    place, then give up everything else in that game, to start with
    it in the next game.

    It's highly likely they would have been better off continuing
    the original game, unless they made ascension impossible in it.
    Then passing on that one item to their next starting character
    is a Pyrrhic victory. (A victory that is offset by staggering
    losses.)


    Yes, you are absolutely correct DSM is great. But for the vast
    majority of non-ascendeds it wouldn't make the difference between
    winning and losing. (Not to mention the average newbie. :-)

    (An advanced demi-god wouldn't even need the DSM.)

    For many players the emphasis on this or that particular piece
    of equipment as the key to the game is misplaced. I once found
    Mjollnir and [GoP as a Valk on Dlvl 3. I never got off that
    level. I was like a six year old with an Indy car.

    So I've changed my advice for early characters to 1) stay alive
    2) improve AC. (So we're really in furious agreement about the
    value of AC points. :-)

    So let low/non skilled players choose to earn their own reward,
    one commensurate with their deserts, while building their skills
    and learning to survive.


    --
    All the best,

    Jove
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Seraphim wrote:
    > Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    > news:0h7bi1d9envn6pa14t6sjmvp32h8u34cf1@4ax.com:
    [inheriting gear from escaped characters]
    >>
    >> Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
    >>that much. That's something else players need to learn.
    >
    >
    > I disagree. I've found DSM makes a huge difference for my players. Even
    > poor combat classes can survive being reckless if they have those 9+
    > points of AC on their side.

    Plus magic resistance or reflection or other resistance of your
    choice. DSM is a huge, huge advantage. Getting my hands on a suit is
    usually the turning point in any game where I manage it fairly early
    (usually from a lamp or throne wish), especially for the caster classes,
    who escape the spells vs. AC dilemma thereby.

    But in the proposed scenario, you'd still need to *find* the DSM
    in order to pass it on to your next character. And, having done so, I
    don't believe I see the advantage of passing it on to another character
    instead of just using it with your current character. The early part of
    the game is the deadliest part. Giving up a character who's already
    gotten past that in order to give a single piece of their gear to a
    character who will then have to go through it all again (albeit with an
    advantage) does not strike me as a sound strategy.

    I don't think this plan would encourage any kind of actual
    playstyle. It'd just encourage people starting up characters,
    immediately escaping the dungeon, and passing handy bits of their
    starting gear (Wizard's CoMR or other magical gear, Valk's shield,
    Ranger's CoD, whatever) on to other classes.

    --
    John Campbell
    jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
    > I think we need to get away from focussing on items as being the
    > equivalent of insta-wins and starting telling players to keep their
    > characters alive in the short term, so that they can win in the long
    > term. This proposed modification would provide motivation for that.

    During the Edo period, Marvin stayed for a time at Engaku. While he
    was there, a novice came to him, complaining that nethack was far too
    difficult and that ascension seemed impossibly far-off.

    Marvin smiled and said, "I too died many times before I first
    ascended."

    The novice departed, only to return some weeks later. He said, "I have
    died many thousands of times. Orcs and ants assault me on all
    sides. Fountains yield demons. I abandon my pet on Dlvl. 1 and yet
    starve to death. Chests kill me when I kick them open. Grid bugs do
    not fall, even when I bravely get in One More Hit(tm). Yet for all
    these deaths, I have gotten no further in the game."

    Marvin beat the novice over the head repeatedly with his keyboard.
    When the beating was over, they both looked at the screen and saw
    that the keystrokes resulting from the blows had started a new game,
    completed mines, sokoban and the Quest, and that the character had
    been crowned Envoy of Balance and had most of a kit together.

    Nobody was enlightened.
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:47:58 GMT, John Campbell
    <jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com> wrote:

    >Seraphim wrote:
    >> Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    >> news:0h7bi1d9envn6pa14t6sjmvp32h8u34cf1@4ax.com:
    >[inheriting gear from escaped characters]
    >>>
    >>> Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
    >>>that much. That's something else players need to learn.
    >>
    >>
    >> I disagree. I've found DSM makes a huge difference for my players. Even
    >> poor combat classes can survive being reckless if they have those 9+
    >> points of AC on their side.
    >
    > Plus magic resistance or reflection or other resistance of your
    >choice. DSM is a huge, huge advantage. Getting my hands on a suit is
    >usually the turning point in any game where I manage it fairly early
    >(usually from a lamp or throne wish), especially for the caster classes,
    >who escape the spells vs. AC dilemma thereby.
    >
    > But in the proposed scenario, you'd still need to *find* the DSM
    >in order to pass it on to your next character. And, having done so, I
    >don't believe I see the advantage of passing it on to another character
    >instead of just using it with your current character. The early part of
    >the game is the deadliest part. Giving up a character who's already
    >gotten past that in order to give a single piece of their gear to a
    >character who will then have to go through it all again (albeit with an
    >advantage) does not strike me as a sound strategy.

    Thanks.

    >
    > I don't think this plan would encourage any kind of actual
    >playstyle. It'd just encourage people starting up characters,
    >immediately escaping the dungeon, and passing handy bits of their
    >starting gear (Wizard's CoMR or other magical gear, Valk's shield,
    >Ranger's CoD, whatever) on to other classes.


    Wooden shoe no hit, the one guy who supports any part of my
    reasoning pretty much convinces me it won't work.


    --
    All the best,

    Jove
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    > There have been posts of players who didn't *do*, but they
    >didn't die either. They just kept hanging around until they got
    >the candles/levitation/reflection/etc. they needed to continue
    >doing.

    Looking for stuff to continue your quest constitutes "doing".

    > Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
    >that much. That's something else players need to learn.

    On the other hand, a wand of wishing (0:3) in the hands of a
    halfway-competent player like me pretty much guarantee one's passage
    to the Castle or thereabouts:

    For a Valkyrie:
    2 blessed scrolls of charging
    a blessed +2 silver dragon scale mail
    *wear DSM; now safe from rays*
    a blessed tin of green dragon meat
    *eat dragon meat; now safe from poison instakills*
    *recharge*
    a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
    *wear cloak; now safe from polytrap inconveniences and wands of striking*
    a blessed fireproof +2 speed boots
    *wear boots; now safe from slow-moving monsters - which is most
    low-level monsters - unless surrounded*
    a blessed rustproof +2 gauntlets of power
    *wear gauntlets; now safe from cockatrice handling*
    *wrest*
    2 blessed potions of full healing
    *now have panic buttons*

    For a Healer:
    2 blessed scrolls of charging
    a blessed +2 silver dragon scale mail
    a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
    a blessed fireproof +2 speed boots
    a blessed rustproof +2 helm of brilliance
    a blessed amulet of ESP
    *do protection racket and then gain a couple of levels*
    *wrest*
    the blessed +2 Grayswandir

    Ascending these characters will not be remotely interesting.
    --
    Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
    \_\/_/ in the metal and blood in the scent and mascara on a backcloth of
    \ / lashes and scars in a flood of your tears in sackcloth and ashes
    \/ -- Sisters of Mercy, "Flood I"
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Canageek wrote:
    > Here's an idea: when ever a character leaves the dungeon a random item
    > (or some gold) from their inventorie has a chance of being added to a
    > file that will evenwally be placed back into a starting characters
    > inventorie. Sort of like a bones file. Prehapes only non-artefacts
    > could be transmited in this way and wands would have some charges
    > drained from them ("I told little Timmy not to touch my wand of fire,
    > but did he listen? NOOO....") Lawful characters would have a higher
    > chance of donating, but will likly donate gold instead of an item,
    > whereas chaotics will rarly donate but will almost always donate an
    > item. A nice touch would be if a character is more likly to recive a
    > donation from another character of the same race and alinment. A
    > message telling who donated the item and when would be nice too....to
    > make it a bit less broken you could randomly add one level of rust to
    > some items due to disuse. A VERY cool thing would be a herse type
    > utility so that other people charaters would donate....

    That's a much better idea. You can't just throw away a wizard to have
    your valkyrie start with cloak of MR, variety is added to, and the
    frequency could be rare enough that it wouldn't be more unbalancing
    than a bones file (less, probably). There should also be a restriction,
    so that only characters above a certain level leave "gifts" when they
    escape, in the same manner that bones files are only possible below a
    certain level.
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 13 Sep 2005 02:17:12 -0700, "vintermann"
    <vintermann@gmail.com> wrote:

    >
    >Canageek wrote:
    >> Here's an idea: when ever a character leaves the dungeon a random item
    >> (or some gold) from their inventorie has a chance of being added to a
    >> file that will evenwally be placed back into a starting characters
    >> inventorie. Sort of like a bones file. Prehapes only non-artefacts
    >> could be transmited in this way and wands would have some charges
    >> drained from them ("I told little Timmy not to touch my wand of fire,
    >> but did he listen? NOOO....") Lawful characters would have a higher
    >> chance of donating, but will likly donate gold instead of an item,
    >> whereas chaotics will rarly donate but will almost always donate an
    >> item. A nice touch would be if a character is more likly to recive a
    >> donation from another character of the same race and alinment. A
    >> message telling who donated the item and when would be nice too....to
    >> make it a bit less broken you could randomly add one level of rust to
    >> some items due to disuse. A VERY cool thing would be a herse type
    >> utility so that other people charaters would donate....
    >
    >That's a much better idea. You can't just throw away a wizard to have
    >your valkyrie start with cloak of MR, variety is added to, and the
    >frequency could be rare enough that it wouldn't be more unbalancing
    >than a bones file (less, probably). There should also be a restriction,
    >so that only characters above a certain level leave "gifts" when they
    >escape, in the same manner that bones files are only possible below a
    >certain level.

    And if equipment in the characters' starting inventory is
    restricted from the original idea? (That restriction would
    probably include the "inherited" item, to encourage improving
    on it.)

    --
    All the best,

    Jove
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On 13 Sep 2005 00:59:13 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
    <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

    >Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    >> There have been posts of players who didn't *do*, but they
    >>didn't die either. They just kept hanging around until they got
    >>the candles/levitation/reflection/etc. they needed to continue
    >>doing.
    >
    >Looking for stuff to continue your quest constitutes "doing".

    Good point, albeit doing so slowly sometimes that's it's
    almost indistinguishable from waiting around for that seventh
    candle for the Candelabrum to be generated.

    >
    >> Just one item, even a blessed (0:3) wand of wishing, won't help
    >>that much. That's something else players need to learn.
    >
    >On the other hand, a wand of wishing (0:3) in the hands of a
    >halfway-competent player like me pretty much guarantee one's passage
    >to the Castle or thereabouts:
    >
    >For a Valkyrie:
    >2 blessed scrolls of charging
    >a blessed +2 silver dragon scale mail
    >*wear DSM; now safe from rays*
    >a blessed tin of green dragon meat
    >*eat dragon meat; now safe from poison instakills*
    >*recharge*
    >a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
    >*wear cloak; now safe from polytrap inconveniences and wands of striking*
    >a blessed fireproof +2 speed boots
    >*wear boots; now safe from slow-moving monsters - which is most
    >low-level monsters - unless surrounded*
    >a blessed rustproof +2 gauntlets of power
    >*wear gauntlets; now safe from cockatrice handling*
    >*wrest*
    >2 blessed potions of full healing
    >*now have panic buttons*
    >
    >For a Healer:
    >2 blessed scrolls of charging
    >a blessed +2 silver dragon scale mail
    >a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
    >a blessed fireproof +2 speed boots
    >a blessed rustproof +2 helm of brilliance
    >a blessed amulet of ESP
    >*do protection racket and then gain a couple of levels*
    >*wrest*
    >the blessed +2 Grayswandir
    >

    You're correct of course. I should have said "Not guaranteed
    an Ascension to a non-demigod." A starting (0:3) wand of wishing
    in the hands of a player that knows what to wish for and how to
    use the resulting items can make a big difference.


    But there are a lot of players that wouldn't know what to wish
    for, nor be able to use the resulting items effectively. (That's
    why there's a wishing spoiler. ;^)


    >Ascending these characters will not be remotely interesting.

    Not to you, so You Wouldn't Do That Then. Going for artifacts
    or items just to make the game less frustrating or more enjoyable
    (which would vary from player to player), or trying a conduct
    seem like a much better idea in that case.

    I'll bet a lot of non-demigods, especially complete newbies,
    would love to try some of your starting setups though :-).

    And it might well be worth setting up some explore mode save
    files like that so players that want to could try it.


    Regardless, you are quite correct a starting (0:3) Wand of
    Wishing would make a big difference in the game. I was wrong.
    :-Þ (;^D)


    --
    All the best,

    Jove
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 02:17:12 -0700, vintermann wrote:

    > That's a much better idea. You can't just throw away a wizard to have your
    > valkyrie start with cloak of MR, variety is added to, and the frequency
    > could be rare enough that it wouldn't be more unbalancing than a bones
    > file (less, probably). There should also be a restriction, so that only
    > characters above a certain level leave "gifts" when they escape, in the
    > same manner that bones files are only possible below a certain level.

    I'd say it should be something like a ((level - 1) in 9) chance that an
    item gets saved. If you got a character up to level 10, you'd be
    guaranteed to leave an item for the next character. Maybe then have, say,
    a 10% chance that the item left is random rather than the one selected, or
    perhaps make that dependent on the highest dungeon level reached? Nah,
    that's probably defeating the purpose, I think. "You have inherited: A
    rock." "Good grief!"

    It would make it possible to add side-goals like "Send a dwarven
    archaeologist down to gather money" and have loot all the vaults, etc, and
    leave it for a later player to buy protection/items/whatever.. It would
    allow newbies to do a treasure-hunt-type side-game instead of banging
    their heads against the "how far can I get?" problem. They could try "How
    good of an item can I get?" for a change of pace.

    --
    - Mantar --- Drop YourPantiesSirWilliam to email me.
  19. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 00:56:26 GMT, "Mantar, Feyelno nek dusa"
    <mantar.feyelno@YourPantiesSirWilliamfrontiernet.net> wrote:

    >On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 02:17:12 -0700, vintermann wrote:
    >
    >> That's a much better idea. You can't just throw away a wizard to have your
    >> valkyrie start with cloak of MR, variety is added to, and the frequency
    >> could be rare enough that it wouldn't be more unbalancing than a bones
    >> file (less, probably). There should also be a restriction, so that only
    >> characters above a certain level leave "gifts" when they escape, in the
    >> same manner that bones files are only possible below a certain level.

    Since vintermann didn't quote any context, I'm not sure what is
    regarded as "a much better idea." Random selection of item to
    be passed on to the next character? Or possibly restricting
    starting inventory items from the current game as being left
    behind.

    The idea of using XP level as the threshold seems the best yet.
    And there's possibly a consensus coming together that a threshold
    is needed. Using the bones threshold as a supporting example is
    excellent.


    >
    > I'd say it should be something like a ((level - 1) in 9) chance that an
    >item gets saved. If you got a character up to level 10, you'd be
    >guaranteed to leave an item for the next character. Maybe then have, say,
    >a 10% chance that the item left is random rather than the one selected, or
    >perhaps make that dependent on the highest dungeon level reached? Nah,
    >that's probably defeating the purpose, I think. "You have inherited: A
    >rock." "Good grief!"

    YANI: The Great Pumpkin

    A softer threshold with probability of success tied to it.
    Completely random does seem a little too unfair.

    Perhaps the player gets to choose ten or so items as possible
    to be left, then random choice partly based on XP level? No,
    still too likely to be a rock and "defeating the purpose."
    then

    >
    > It would make it possible to add side-goals like "Send a dwarven
    >archaeologist down to gather money" and have loot all the vaults, etc, and
    >leave it for a later player to buy protection/items/whatever.. It would
    >allow newbies to do a treasure-hunt-type side-game instead of banging
    >their heads against the "how far can I get?" problem. They could try "How
    >good of an item can I get?" for a change of pace.


    That is describing what I had hoped to achieve with the
    original YANI. (Only with a much better idea of how to do it.
    ;^) Good to see responses making suggestions to improve the idea.

    Get players used to the idea of setting a goal and achieving it
    while exploring and surviving, then getting out with the goods.
    Then using that result to try to achieve another goal.

    Presumably, at some point they'll realize, just before they
    exit the dungeon, that their current character/items would be
    better for achieving the next goal than starting with a brand
    new character, even with the item of their choice from their
    current game. ;^)

    (As someone said about a BoH explosion: If you #quit, you'll
    start a new game with a character a lot worse off than yours is
    now. So why not just continue this game and pretend it *is* a
    new game, only with much better starting stats and equipment.)


    Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far.


    --
    All the best,

    Jove
  20. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Jove wrote:

    > The idea of using XP level as the threshold seems the best yet.
    > And there's possibly a consensus coming together that a threshold
    > is needed. Using the bones threshold as a supporting example is
    > excellent.

    > > I'd say it should be something like a ((level - 1) in 9) chance that an
    > >item gets saved. If you got a character up to level 10, you'd be
    > >guaranteed to leave an item for the next character. Maybe then have, say,
    > >a 10% chance that the item left is random rather than the one selected, or
    > >perhaps make that dependent on the highest dungeon level reached? Nah,
    > >that's probably defeating the purpose, I think. "You have inherited: A
    > >rock." "Good grief!"
    >
    > YANI: The Great Pumpkin
    >
    > A softer threshold with probability of success tied to it.
    > Completely random does seem a little too unfair.
    >
    > Perhaps the player gets to choose ten or so items as possible
    > to be left, then random choice partly based on XP level? No,
    > still too likely to be a rock and "defeating the purpose."
    > then

    Maybe, like bonefile, the loading of the item should not be automatical
    and items from a very old character can be loaded (several legacy being
    saved simultaneously in order to have some choice). This would avoid
    choosing an item perfectly fitting the character you're intending to play.

    But that might also be considered as defecting the purpose (by trying to
    avoid abuse from more experienced players).

    And if you want, you may even have (part of) the description of a very old
    item forgotten...

    a - a gray stone named "Ye old magical stone brought back from the
    dungeon by Jym the first, founder of the dynasty, several centuries ago.
    Nobody knows why it's called 'magical' but we hope that you'll find out
    during your journey and come back to tell us. Since this is the symbol of
    our kingdom, if you die during the attempt, you'll also be guilty of the
    death of all our people, good luck Jym the 232th."

    --
    Hypocoristiquement,
    Jym.

    Adresse mail plus valide à partir de septembre 2005.
    Utiliser l'adresse de redirection permanente :
    Jean-Yves.Moyen `at` ens-lyon.org
  21. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Martin Read wrote:
    > On the other hand, a wand of wishing (0:3) in the hands of a
    > halfway-competent player like me pretty much guarantee one's passage
    > to the Castle or thereabouts:

    > For a Valkyrie:
    > a blessed tin of green dragon meat

    Poisoned-pit instadeaths are vanishingly rare; I don't think it is worth a
    wish to guard against them. If I read the source correctly, they won't
    ever show up before DL5; one could stay above that level until poison
    resistance is obtained.

    > For a Healer:
    > 2 blessed scrolls of charging
    > a blessed +2 silver dragon scale mail
    > a blessed fireproof +2 speed boots

    +3 gives more AC

    > a blessed rustproof +2 helm of brilliance

    Now, with helms of brilliance +2 is a better wish, both because you want
    to increase the chance of getting at least _something_ right away, and
    because in the long run it reduces the amount of ?oEA one needs to get to
    +5 (which is far better than +4 when it comes to helms of brilliance).
    Don't forget to wish for it greased.

    > a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
    > a blessed amulet of ESP

    "holy greased eye of the Aethiopica" saves one wish here, and grants three
    extra abilities, one of them exceedingly powerful. Magic resistance is
    optional in the very early game, so waiting for this wish is no problem.

    > *do protection racket and then gain a couple of levels*

    The protection racket strikes me as a pointless risk here.

    > the blessed +2 Grayswandir

    At his point, I'd probably get a weapon from sacrifice and
    save the remaining wishes.


    --
    "Ruleless 'law' will be a political weapon and control of the
    judiciary will therefore be a political prize. 'Democracy' will
    consist of the chaotic struggle to influence decision makers who are
    not responsive to elections." -- Robert Bork
  22. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Rast <rast2@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >Martin Read wrote:
    >> For a Valkyrie:
    >> a blessed tin of green dragon meat
    >
    >Poisoned-pit instadeaths are vanishingly rare; I don't think it is worth a
    >wish to guard against them. If I read the source correctly, they won't
    >ever show up before DL5; one could stay above that level until poison
    >resistance is obtained.

    Dart trap instadeaths are even more rare - I've *never* had one - but
    they can happen. The code says so. Since I am attempting to insure
    this character against avoidable instadeaths, poison resistance is
    important.

    (There's an argument for working in a lizard corpse, but if you're very
    fast, cockatrices are trivial to evade, since you're over three time as
    fast as they are.)

    >> a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
    >> a blessed amulet of ESP
    >
    >"holy greased eye of the Aethiopica" saves one wish here, and grants three
    >extra abilities, one of them exceedingly powerful. Magic resistance is
    >optional in the very early game, so waiting for this wish is no problem.

    I would never omit an MC source from my initial batch of wishes.

    >> *do protection racket and then gain a couple of levels*
    >
    >The protection racket strikes me as a pointless risk here.

    A XL1 character with a significant negative AC who is very fast,
    reflective, magic-resistant, poison-resistant, and extrinsically
    telepathic has nothing to fear between DL1 and Minetown that wouldn't
    also be a major threat to an XL8 character.

    >> the blessed +2 Grayswandir
    >
    >At his point, I'd probably get a weapon from sacrifice and
    >save the remaining wishes.

    Good point. I've had plenty of games where the only way to get a
    coaligned altar was sacerdicide, though, and generally speaking I don't
    like murdering temple priests.
    --
    Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
    \_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
    \ / "tempted white eyes blinded by the night hollow like the towers from the
    \/ inside laura's a machine she's burning insane" fields of the nephilim
  23. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    Mabey it should come with a description in the legacy textbox. "As you
    set out on your quest your wizend old <Insert gender apropriate title>
    approches you and gives you a relic of his adventuring career: A
    _______. Use it well..."
  24. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    "Martin Read" <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
    news:c+B*ATeZq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
    > Rast <rast2@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > >Martin Read wrote:
    > >> For a Valkyrie:
    > >> a blessed tin of green dragon meat
    > >
    > >Poisoned-pit instadeaths are vanishingly rare; I don't think it is worth
    a
    > >wish to guard against them. If I read the source correctly, they won't
    > >ever show up before DL5; one could stay above that level until poison
    > >resistance is obtained.
    >
    > Dart trap instadeaths are even more rare - I've *never* had one - but
    > they can happen. The code says so. Since I am attempting to insure
    > this character against avoidable instadeaths, poison resistance is
    > important.
    >
    > (There's an argument for working in a lizard corpse, but if you're very
    > fast, cockatrices are trivial to evade, since you're over three time as
    > fast as they are.)
    >
    > >> a blessed fireproof +2 cloak of magic resistance
    > >> a blessed amulet of ESP
    > >
    > >"holy greased eye of the Aethiopica" saves one wish here, and grants
    three
    > >extra abilities, one of them exceedingly powerful. Magic resistance is
    > >optional in the very early game, so waiting for this wish is no problem.
    >
    > I would never omit an MC source from my initial batch of wishes.
    >
    > >> *do protection racket and then gain a couple of levels*
    > >
    > >The protection racket strikes me as a pointless risk here.
    >
    > A XL1 character with a significant negative AC who is very fast,
    > reflective, magic-resistant, poison-resistant, and extrinsically
    > telepathic has nothing to fear between DL1 and Minetown that wouldn't
    > also be a major threat to an XL8 character.

    If you were going to do that you could wish for a couple of !oFH or a
    c?oGenocide.

    > >> the blessed +2 Grayswandir
    > >
    > >At his point, I'd probably get a weapon from sacrifice and
    > >save the remaining wishes.
    >
    > Good point. I've had plenty of games where the only way to get a
    > coaligned altar was sacerdicide, though, and generally speaking I don't
    > like murdering temple priests.
    > --
    > Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
    > \_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
    > \ / "tempted white eyes blinded by the night hollow like the towers from
    the
    > \/ inside laura's a machine she's burning insane" fields of the
    nephilim
  25. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

    "BWIGLEY" <bwigley@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
    >"Martin Read" <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
    >news:c+B*ATeZq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
    >> A XL1 character with a significant negative AC who is very fast,
    >> reflective, magic-resistant, poison-resistant, and extrinsically
    >> telepathic has nothing to fear between DL1 and Minetown that wouldn't
    >> also be a major threat to an XL8 character.
    >
    >If you were going to do that you could wish for a couple of !oFH or a
    >c?oGenocide.

    You'll notice that I did do the !oFH thing on the Valkyrie. The healer,
    of course, starts the game with some potions of extra healing, which are
    Good Enough for a level 1 character.

    [And please trim for context.]
    --
    Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
    \_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
    \ / "tempted white eyes blinded by the night hollow like the towers from the
    \/ inside laura's a machine she's burning insane" fields of the nephilim
Ask a new question

Read More

Games Video Games