YANI: detect magic, BUC id

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Hi All,

It came to me recently that something that would allow detection of
magic would be quite useful and probably an appropriate thing to
include. Also some thoughts on BUC-id.

Brainstorming follows:


I can see it working in a couple of different ways:

1. mini-identify
. by examining an item you can determine whether it is enchanted (or
possibly if it has any charges, if a charged item), but not how
much (you don't learn bonus or malus on an item, nor how many
charges)
. possibly behave as ID in terms of single item, multiple items, all
items
. spell or scroll

2. similar to detect object
. you flash and can see where there's magic on the map
. no indication of what items in inventory are magic (I don't like
this so much)

3. as telepathy
. when blinded, can sense magic items

4. as priest BUC-id
. pick it up, you know.

Option: could it identify 'magic-but-empty' items such as tapped wands
and the like? An 'unmagic wand' might be out of charges or a wand of
nothing. Scrolls, books, and potions are fairly easy to tell (water
BUC status makes a big difference, of course).

now, how to get it?

1. intrinsic, gained by
. eating wizard, shaman, or similar -- probably low, low frequency;
you meet a lot of these creatures early on
. eating a disenchanter? Probably a higher frequency of success,
possibly with a chance of canceling yourself -- an item or even an
intrinsic?
. performing some action?

. could be as telepathy or priest BUC-id

2. class ability
. probably not wizard. Wizard is probably the most appropriate in
terms of feel, but wizards already get a lot of mojo.
. barbarian, perhaps? They 'fear magic in some stories, giving them
an instinctive ability to discern magic could be appropriate. At
least until they do something to overcome this fear (perhaps learn
or cast a spell would be best; using weapons and armor shouldn't
remove the ability, potions should be safe, maybe wands would
remove it)

. could be as priest BUC-id, possibly telepathy (but probably not)

3. place
. not a good solution IMO, since with a bit of (meta)game knowledge,
price-ID in combination with BUC determination can usually give a
pretty good idea of whether something is enchanted and how much.
Those items that don't (whistles and lamps, for example) can
usually be determined fairly easily otherwise.

. as altar BUC-id, probably

4. spell
. a lower-level spell than /identify/. It's not as useful; could be
made a scroll as well.

. as detect object or identify

5. object
. similar to touchstone?
. potion?

. as touchstone, priest BUC-id, telepathy, depending how it works or
what item -- could be several possibilities.


Similarly, could a portable BUC-id ability be created? Making priest
BUC-id an intrinsic would do it. Several class bennies are also
intrinsics -- cold resistance, speed, and stealth all leap to mind, so
being able to 'learn' or otherwise acquire the ability doesn't seem
unreasonable.

OTOH, 'altarstone' -- a chip from an altar analogous to a touchstone --
could be appropriate. Perhaps only from an aligned altar and it angers
your god (and the priest, if there's one there), maybe taking one from a
cross-aligned altar brings down the wrath of $Other.

*or*, you can make one 'freely' (if you have the necessary materials, of
course) from any altar (but it annoys the attendant priest)... but it
acts as a loadstone. Blessed if a coaligned altar, cursed otherwise
(probably). You might even be able to find one. Makes leaving
#kick-tested stones more troublesome, I think -- is it a loadstone, or
an altarstone?

Is an altarstone valuable enough that it should carry the weight of a
loadstone? I like the idea for a few reasons (makes things that look
like loadstones non-ignorable, a portable BUC-id is quite handy)...
but is it *that* useful? A touchstone makes it dead easy to score
lots of gold fast (if you get lucky), and priests start with BUC-id as
a class bennie (they don't gain it later, they start with it).

At that, perhaps allow conversion *back* -- altarstone to altar. Maybe
with a chance of destruction for each conversion? Do you risk losing
the BUC-id of the altarstone for the chance to #offer? Or risk the
altar for portable BUC-id? This could give a means for moving an altar,
or producing an altar if you found an altarstone.

Hmm... if a coaligned altar produces a blessed altarstone, and a
crossaligned produces a cursed one, presumably the converse is true...
but what happens if you find a cursed altarstone and bless it? Simplest
case, it becomes coaligned.

And I'm not sure how you go about gathering a priest for it. Summon a
priest (reverse genocide?) and hope he likes the altar? He has to be
summoned peaceful, or coaligned to the altar, if he's going to stay.

Oh, nasty. Shows up, crossaligned to the altar (and either different
race or chaotic)... tries to kill and #offer *you*?


Thoughts, questions, comments?


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

[Lester]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

>1. Keith Davies Sep 13, 12:00 am show options
>Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
>From: Keith Davies <keith.dav...@kjdavies.org>
>Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:00:41 GMT
>Local: Tues, Sep 13 2005 12:00 am
>Subject: YANI: detect magic, BUC id

>Hi All,

>It came to me recently that something that would allow detection of
>magic would be quite useful and probably an appropriate thing to
>include. Also some thoughts on BUC-id.

I've read so many YANI threads, and this is my favorite one in a long
time. I'm surprised no one else has thought of it yet (if someone did,
sorry... I'm too lazy to google it). If I only get one vote throughout
the course of my life toward a single YANI that I legitimately believe
should implemented, this one would get it. ...The magic-detection part,
that is.

>Brainstorming follows:

>I can see it working in a couple of different ways:

>1. mini-identify
> . by examining an item you can determine whether it is enchanted (or
> possibly if it has any charges, if a charged item), but not how
> much (you don't learn bonus or malus on an item, nor how many
> charges)
> . possibly behave as ID in terms of single item, multiple items, all
> items
> . spell or scroll

I like the idea of non-charged items/wands of nothing not being
detected as magical. I would suggest the same for chargeable items
which have been cancelled.

I think this would be great. In the classic sense of detecting magic, I
think that every time you cast the spell/use the scroll, it should use
a buffer to determine the number of turns for which detect magic lasts,
similar to detect monsters (via blessed !s and sufficiently skilled
divination). During that time, I can see two possible ways to benefit
from the detection:

1) for the duration of the spell, whenever a non-blind character
examines an object by handling it, by using the ;: commands, or by
looking at it in his inventory (or in a bag, etc.), it should list
"(glowing)" at the end of magical items. There might be an accompanying
message ("Some objects in your inventory begin to glow!"; "(A nearby
objects begins)/ (some nearby objects begin) to glow!" In this sense,
the player would have to personally note that an item is magic, as some
beginning players might not know the significance of the glow, be it
provided from an unidentified source.
or 2) all qualifying items within the non-blind character's visual
range (and in his *primary* inventory--not in bags) during the course
of the duration are tagged as "(magic)". The message(s) regarding
glowing could also apply, but in this instance, the determined items
would still be tagged after the duration expires.

If, in the course of detect magic's duration, a character drinks a
blessed potion of object detection or when a character of sufficient
skill in divination casts detect treasure, all items should be
similarly tagged upon long-distance examination.

If you wanted it to be a bit more in-depth, the durational effect could
be the case of only blessed scrolls (or potions, if that ended up being
the case) and those casting the spell while similarly skilled in
divination, while the 'lesser' version could only work on items
currently within the character's visual range--or better yet, within a
certain radius (as per a wand of secret door detection).

Finally, in keeping with tradition, artifacts of any ilk should not
emit any magical radiation, probably not even if they are enchanted.
Thought that may be an issue to implement... not that everything
mentioned *up to* this point wouldn't be.

>2. class ability
> . probably not wizard. Wizard is probably the most appropriate in
> terms of feel, but wizards already get a lot of mojo.
> . barbarian, perhaps? They 'fear magic in some stories, giving them
> an instinctive ability to discern magic could be appropriate. At
> least until they do something to overcome this fear (perhaps learn
> or cast a spell would be best; using weapons and armor shouldn't
> remove the ability, potions should be safe, maybe wands would
> remove it)

I like this idea. I feel that the barbarian would be the most
applicable candidate for the magic-detecting class ability, but only
after a certain level (probably 4th). I'm probably wrong about the
level thing, but the barbarians' ability detect magic was the case in
1st edition D&D. The biggest problem that I see with this, of course,
is that if since detection is classically out of fear, then barbarians
should be limited severely limited regarding usage and interaction with
magic of any sort. Perhaps the best compromise would be simply adding
'detect magic' to the possible starting spellbooks of priests and
wizards, and also making it a possible random starting
scroll/potion/wand/anything, really. The monk might be a good candidate
for this as well.

> . could be as priest BUC-id, possibly telepathy (but probably not)

>3. place
> . not a good solution IMO, since with a bit of (meta)game knowledge,

Agree. I don't see this happening.

> price-ID in combination with BUC determination can usually give a
> pretty good idea of whether something is enchanted and how much.
> Those items that don't (whistles and lamps, for example) can
> usually be determined fairly easily otherwise.

> . as altar BUC-id, probably

Maybe magic detection could be a temporary gift from priests, as per
clairvoyance...

>4. spell
> . a lower-level spell than /identify/. It's not as useful; could be
> made a scroll as well.

> . as detect object or identify

(To both 4 and 5) I think it would serve well as a scroll, a spell, a
potion, a wand, a ring, a gift...

>5. object
> . similar to touchstone?
> . potion?

> . as touchstone, priest BUC-id, telepathy, depending how it works or
> what item -- could be several possibilities.

>Similarly, could a portable BUC-id ability be created? Making priest
>BUC-id an intrinsic would do it. Several class bennies are also
>intrinsics -- cold resistance, speed, and stealth all leap to mind, so
>being able to 'learn' or otherwise acquire the ability doesn't seem
>unreasonable.

>OTOH, 'altarstone' -- a chip from an altar analogous to a touchstone --
>could be appropriate. Perhaps only from an aligned altar and it angers
>your god (and the priest, if there's one there), maybe taking one from a
>cross-aligned altar brings down the wrath of $Other.

I don't particularly care for this idea. It takes a lot of the
uniqueness away from the priest class. What you are suggesting is
similar to the touchstone, as we both know. I remember quite a few
versions back when automatic gem identification was a class feature for
archeologists. The implementing of the touchstone was very similar to
what you're suggesting here.

Since touchstones are something of a rarity, the internal logic of the
item itself still lends power to the archeologist, whom as we all know
starts with a touchstone. The difference between that case and the case
with BUC recognition is that the latter is much more of a practicality.


When my barbarian happens upon the stray touchstone (or spends a wish
on one) and can consequently collect a dozen or so additional valuable
gems in the course of a game, at best it will amount to a chunk of
points at the end of the game. Perhaps that barbarian might be a few
thousand zorkmids richer at one point, but most experienced players in
the NetHack community will comment on how fleeting and fundamentally
worthless gold is. On the other hand, when that same barbarian can
acquire the ability to BUC ID any item on-the-spot, pending only on a
co-aligned altar, he can use any ol' weapon that's shinier than the one
he has, he can sample every little scrap of armor he happens to come
across without worry (with the exception of certain helmets, that
is).... etc. Priests are somewhat balanced in that, yes, they have the
ability, but their spell casting capabilities prohibit a lot of armor.

The degree of patience it requires to do things like trudge back and
forth to the nearest altar in order to avoid cursed items is largely
what separates successful players from reckless ones. That's my two
cents on the subject. ;-)

>*or*, you can make one 'freely' (if you have the necessary materials, of
>course) from any altar (but it annoys the attendant priest)... but it
>acts as a loadstone. Blessed if a coaligned altar, cursed otherwise
>(probably). You might even be able to find one. Makes leaving
>#kick-tested stones more troublesome, I think -- is it a loadstone, or
>an altarstone?

Better, but I still don't feel too warm and fuzzy about the prospect...

> Is an altarstone valuable enough that it should carry the weight of a
> loadstone? I like the idea for a few reasons (makes things that look
> like loadstones non-ignorable, a portable BUC-id is quite handy)...
> but is it *that* useful? A touchstone makes it dead easy to score
> lots of gold fast (if you get lucky), and priests start with BUC-id as
> a class bennie (they don't gain it later, they start with it).

Hm... what people would end up doing would be either
double-BoH...ing... such a heavy item or, if putting the stone in a
container were prohibited, they would leave it by the up-stairs of
every level until it was time to move on to the next one. An *overly*
useful item, the way I see it.

>At that, perhaps allow conversion *back* -- altarstone to altar. Maybe
>with a chance of destruction for each conversion? Do you risk losing
>the BUC-id of the altarstone for the chance to #offer? Or risk the
>altar for portable BUC-id? This could give a means for moving an altar,
>or producing an altar if you found an altarstone.

Hm... portable altars. An intriguing idea, but again, many would find
it unbalancing.

>Hmm... if a coaligned altar produces a blessed altarstone, and a
>crossaligned produces a cursed one, presumably the converse is true...
>but what happens if you find a cursed altarstone and bless it? Simplest
>case, it becomes coaligned.

>And I'm not sure how you go about gathering a priest for it. Summon a
>priest (reverse genocide?) and hope he likes the altar? He has to be
>summoned peaceful, or coaligned to the altar, if he's going to stay.

>Oh, nasty. Shows up, crossaligned to the altar (and either different
>race or chaotic)... tries to kill and #offer *you*?

>Thoughts, questions, comments?

>Keith

I just *love* the idea of magic detection. It's useful while not overly
powerful, it's taken right out of classic D&D, and it adds depth to
game play. I'm anxious to hear what anyone else has to say about it.

I'd implement it myself if I had the know-how... if nothing else, maybe
someday. *sigh*

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 13 Sep 2005 01:24:42 -0700, "Lester"
<WestSideLester@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>1. Keith Davies Sep 13, 12:00 am show options
>>Newsgroups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack
>>From: Keith Davies <keith.dav...@kjdavies.org>
>>Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:00:41 GMT
>>Local: Tues, Sep 13 2005 12:00 am
>>Subject: YANI: detect magic, BUC id
>
>>Hi All,
>
>>It came to me recently that something that would allow detection of
>>magic would be quite useful and probably an appropriate thing to
>>include. Also some thoughts on BUC-id.
>
<snip praise>

>>Brainstorming follows:
>
>>I can see it working in a couple of different ways:
>
>>1. mini-identify
>> . by examining an item you can determine whether it is enchanted (or
>> possibly if it has any charges, if a charged item), but not how
>> much (you don't learn bonus or malus on an item, nor how many
>> charges)
>> . possibly behave as ID in terms of single item, multiple items, all
>> items
>> . spell or scroll
>
>I like the idea of non-charged items/wands of nothing not being
>detected as magical.

Polymorph a wand of nothing and get a charged wand. (Minor
point, but still.

>I would suggest the same for chargeable items
>which have been cancelled.
>
Makes perfect sense.

<snip more good stuff that I can't think of anything to add to.>



--
All the best,

Jove

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:00:41 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>It came to me recently that something that would allow detection of
>magic would be quite useful and probably an appropriate thing to
>include. Also some thoughts on BUC-id.
>

<Snip fascinating and well-thought out YANI>

>
>Thoughts, questions, comments?
>
>
Just to add my 2 zorkmids: Add abilities to determine -

- How many "reads" there are remaining in a spellbook.

- How many turns remain before a spell expires.

- How many turns of light remain in a brass lantern.
(Same for oil lamp would be nice, but just shaking it
should do the job really, since it's not magic.)

- Approximately how many charges remain in a chargeable
object:
- None: "seems (almost) lifeless" ("almost" for wrestable
magic items.)
- One: "There's detectable magic here."
- 1-4 "There's appreciable magic here."
- 5+ "The <item> fairly glows with magic!"

- that a unicorn horn is magic. The "fairly glows with magic"
would be appropriate, since a unihorn has essentially infinite
charges.

- How much longer non-temporary detect monster spell/potion will
last.
- How much longer "very fast" from !oSpeed or Spell of Haste
Self will last.
- How much longer invisibility from a potion will last.
("The ending is out of sight!" for permanent. ;^)
- How long since last #invoke of an artifact.
- When you last #prayed.
- How long it's been since your teleportitis kicked in.
(Useless, but you need to be spoiled to know that.)
- What resistances/damage you can expect from eating a corpse.
Or maybe just that one or the other is possible:
"This corpse is (slightly) magic: eat it anyway? (y/n)"
- How much longer before a foocubus loses its headache.


So there are a lot of little extras that could be added to your
original idea. No one part of the "Magic detection skill/spell/
intrinsic" would be a game breaker for or against. And it makes
a fair amount of sense, gamewise.

I'd like to see it added. ("It's doomed, DOOMED, I say!" ;^)

The big question remaining is whether it's worth the time and
effort.


--
All the best,

Jove

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <slrndicn7o.oge.keith.davies@kjdavies.org>, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> says...
> It came to me recently that something that would allow detection of
> magic would be quite useful and probably an appropriate thing to
> include.
....
> 5. object
> . similar to touchstone?
> . potion?
>
New Agey crystal.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:09:58 GMT, Andrew Kerr
<andykerr@SPAMGUARD.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <slrndicn7o.oge.keith.davies@kjdavies.org>, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> says...
>> It came to me recently that something that would allow detection of
>> magic would be quite useful and probably an appropriate thing to
>> include.
>...
>> 5. object
>> . similar to touchstone?
>> . potion?
>>
>New Agey crystal.

Not another suggestion for making gems useful. ;^)


Actually, using gems for this would fit quite well, imho.
Could be a way of identifying gems, just have a gem disappear
when successfully used for this.

Each gem could either have different types of magic it could
"sense". Or different gems could have different "depths" of
sensing. (Dilithium crystals would tell you everything including
the item's location in memory. ;-)



--
All the best,

Jove

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jean-Yves.Moyen@ens-lyon.org wrote:
> Jukka Lahtinen wrote:
> > Jove writes:
>
> > > Just to add my 2 zorkmids: Add abilities to determine -
> > > - How many turns remain before a spell expires.
>
> > That's actually quite easy to determine: every spell expires 20000 turns
> > after being read.
> > When I read a spellbook, I #name it (non-individually) by the turn
> > counter. The book shows with its real name in inventory listings, but with
> > the \ command you can see the name given to it. Just add 20000 to that
> > number, and you know when it is going to expire.
>
> That's indeed a nice trick, but it won't work in two situations (iirc):
> _ the spellbook blancks after reading and you cannot #name it.

Todays the day for #name-n/#name-y aka call/name issues.

You can name it or call it but they will be displayed differently.

If an individual item has been identified, it will be
displayed as such: "blessed spellbook of knock". If a
type of item has been identified, other ones of that
type will be displayed as such: "spellbook of knock".

If a type of item has been called but not identified,
it will be displayed as such: "spellbook called 31134".
Identified or not, the call handle will be displayed in
the discovery \-list.

If neither the item will be displayed with its inital
name: "shiny spellbook".

This strategy is usefull if you keep more than one hoard,
because you'll always be able to look it up in the discovery
list with the one exception pointed out by Jean-Yves.Moyen,
conversion to blank. Calling blank can't remember when the
spell was learned.

This is why I think it's better to name it instead:
"blessed spellbook of knock named 31134". This strategy
is usefull if you keep all of your spellbooks together in
the same hoard. It works whether the book converts or not
"blessed blank spellbook named 31134" (which is corny,
but consider "blessed blank spellbook named knock 31134").

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Just to add my 2 zorkmids: Add abilities to determine -
> - How many turns remain before a spell expires.

That's actually quite easy to determine: every spell expires 20000 turns
after being read.
When I read a spellbook, I #name it (non-individually) by the turn
counter. The book shows with its real name in inventory listings, but with
the \ command you can see the name given to it. Just add 20000 to that
number, and you know when it is going to expire.

> - When you last #prayed.

That's one of the things I keep notes of when I play..

--
Jukka Lahtinen

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 14 Sep 2005 15:02:18 +0300, Jukka Lahtinen
<jslnews@despammed.com> wrote:

>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
>> Just to add my 2 zorkmids: Add abilities to determine -
>> - How many turns remain before a spell expires.
>
>That's actually quite easy to determine: every spell expires 20000 turns
>after being read.
>When I read a spellbook, I #name it (non-individually) by the turn
>counter. The book shows with its real name in inventory listings, but with
>the \ command you can see the name given to it. Just add 20000 to that
>number, and you know when it is going to expire.

It is easy to keep track of, when you know that information in
advance. Beyond manually tracking spell expiration, there are
three indicators in the game to help you:

1) This spell is growing faint.
2) You strain to recall the spell.
3) you get confused/stunned when trying to cast the spell.

>
>> - When you last #prayed.
>
>That's one of the things I keep notes of when I play..

Again, manual tracking external, usually to the game.


You are of course completely correct in your statements. And
your methods are the ones I use myself. And lacking a built-in
in-game method of determining this durations, they are the best
a player can do right now.


My point, which I apparently failed to make clear, was that
the "detect magic" YANI would be an appropriate mechanism for
providing a way to determine these useful items of information
within the game.


--
All the best,

Jove

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> You are of course completely correct in your statements. And
> your methods are the ones I use myself. And lacking a built-in
> in-game method of determining this durations, they are the best
> a player can do right now.
>
>
> My point, which I apparently failed to make clear, was that
> the "detect magic" YANI would be an appropriate mechanism for
> providing a way to determine these useful items of information
> within the game.

Actually, the YANI I wrote was strictly to indicate whether something
was magical or not, with no indication whatsoever of *how* magical. I'd
leave it at that. Having identify doing it, OTOH, may be appropriate.

OTOH, there's no point in using detect magic on a spellbook, you *know*
it's magic. Well, except if it works like detect monster or detect
object (which means you could learn of its presence without seeing it
directly). Oh. Would this mean that it could indicate what statues
contain spellbooks? That'd be handy right there.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On that special day, Keith Davies, (keith.davies@kjdavies.org) said...

> . smoky == demonbane
> . cloudy == ghostbane
> . full healing == trollbane (healing is close to regeneration, sorta)
> . 'silver' == werebane

What, if a smoky potion identifies as "full healing"? I think, one
shouldn't mix 'colors' and 'properties' that way.


Gabriele Neukam

Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam@t-online.de


--
Ah, Information. A property, too valuable these days, to give it away,
just so, at no cost.

 

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Gabriele Neukam <Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam@t-online.de> wrote:
> On that special day, Keith Davies, (keith.davies@kjdavies.org) said...
>
>> . smoky == demonbane
>> . cloudy == ghostbane
>> . full healing == trollbane (healing is close to regeneration, sorta)
>> . 'silver' == werebane
>
> What, if a smoky potion identifies as "full healing"? I think, one
> shouldn't mix 'colors' and 'properties' that way.

I hadn't really considered that. You might make it random, or even give
the possibility of gaining *both*. In my original proposal for this
idea you could only ever have one applied at a time (applying a new one
removed the old).

ISTR I may have had other banes as well, but don't remember what they
were.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Jukka Lahtinen wrote:

> Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
> > Just to add my 2 zorkmids: Add abilities to determine -
> > - How many turns remain before a spell expires.
>
> That's actually quite easy to determine: every spell expires 20000 turns
> after being read.
> When I read a spellbook, I #name it (non-individually) by the turn
> counter. The book shows with its real name in inventory listings, but with
> the \ command you can see the name given to it. Just add 20000 to that
> number, and you know when it is going to expire.

That's indeed a nice trick, but it won't work in two situations (iirc):
_ the spellbook blancks after reading and you cannot #name it.
_ you're playing slash'em and spell expration is a bit more complicate.

> > - When you last #prayed.
>
> That's one of the things I keep notes of when I play..

That's one of the things I should note. Well, anyway, I probably should be
keeping notes when playing...

--
Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

Adresse mail plus valide à partir de septembre 2005.
Utiliser l'adresse de redirection permanente :
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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:08:45 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:

>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> You are of course completely correct in your statements. And
>> your methods are the ones I use myself. And lacking a built-in
>> in-game method of determining this durations, they are the best
>> a player can do right now.
>>
>>
>> My point, which I apparently failed to make clear, was that
>> the "detect magic" YANI would be an appropriate mechanism for
>> providing a way to determine these useful items of information
>> within the game.
>
>Actually, the YANI I wrote was strictly to indicate whether something
>was magical or not, with no indication whatsoever of *how* magical. I'd
>leave it at that. Having identify doing it, OTOH, may be appropriate.
>
Good points, all. (Maybe Identify at "Master" skill level? ;^)


>OTOH, there's no point in using detect magic on a spellbook, you *know*
>it's magic. Well, except if it works like detect monster or detect
>object (which means you could learn of its presence without seeing it
>directly). Oh. Would this mean that it could indicate what statues
>contain spellbooks? That'd be handy right there.
>

Very good point. Or when you step onto a level. "You smell
magic in the air!".

Or the ability to determine the level of a spellbook. Handy
for non-wizards thinking of reading a spellbook known to be
uncursed, but otherwise unidentified.

It wouldn't have to be very exact. It's just that it's
difficult to think there wouldn't be *some* hint of the magnitude
of the magic detected.


--
All the best,

Jove

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:49:06 +0200, Jean-Yves.Moyen@ens-lyon.org
wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Jukka Lahtinen wrote:
>
>> Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>
>> > Just to add my 2 zorkmids: Add abilities to determine -
>> > - How many turns remain before a spell expires.
>>
>> That's actually quite easy to determine: every spell expires 20000 turns
>> after being read.
>> When I read a spellbook, I #name it (non-individually) by the turn
>> counter. The book shows with its real name in inventory listings, but with
>> the \ command you can see the name given to it. Just add 20000 to that
>> number, and you know when it is going to expire.
>
>That's indeed a nice trick, but it won't work in two situations (iirc):
>_ the spellbook blancks after reading and you cannot #name it.

Spellbooks ID as blank only when you try to read them and fail
with "This spellbook is too faint to read." So you haven't
refreshed the spell and there's no need to rename the spellbook.

>_ you're playing slash'em and spell expration is a bit more complicate.
>
>> > - When you last #prayed.
>>
>> That's one of the things I keep notes of when I play..
>
>That's one of the things I should note. Well, anyway, I probably should be
>keeping notes when playing...


Join the club. I don't use external notes because I usually
have two-three games going at once on a give computer. Keeping
them straight isn't worth it.



I've come to enjoy the early game playing a wizard. It's full
of possibilities. And the first few items I find mean more than
silver dragon scale mail does later. As does getting daggers and
dagger skill #enhancements mean more than getting Magicbane, or
any other artifact weapon.




It's like E3L1 of the original Doom. You started with a pistol
and some ammo in a wide open arena with two different kinds of
slow monsters with ranged attacks. You couldn't continue on
until all the monsters were dead. And even with the additional
ammo to be found on the level you couldn't kill all the monsters
with the pistol, you'd run out of cartridges.


Then I noticed that when one type of monster hit the other type
of monster, those two individual monsters would then fight each
other until one of them was dead. And they'd ignore me while
doing so.


So, just run around, getting two different types of monsters in
line. Wait until one hit the other with a ranged attack, then go
do the same to another pair. Never fire a shot until only one
kind of monster was left, and those monster(s) usually badly
hurt. Coup de gras.


It became my favorite part of any level in the original Doom.


--
All the best,

Jove

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:08:45 GMT, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
>>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Actually, the YANI I wrote was strictly to indicate whether something
>>was magical or not, with no indication whatsoever of *how* magical. I'd
>>leave it at that. Having identify doing it, OTOH, may be appropriate.
>
> Good points, all. (Maybe Identify at "Master" skill level? ;^)

Or blessed scroll or potion? (Depending how it's implemented, of
course).

My current game has a valk (10th level) that knows half a dozen spells.
There are *two* that aren't 100% failure... naked. It's gonna take a
long time to be able to cast any of them reliably.

Library at Mine's End. I was able to buy protection once, and if I can
find a place to sell these useless books -- general store in Minetown is
tapped -- I'll be able to buy another round.

Also, I've got Excalibur (easy), Mojo, and GoP... tempted to start
throwing Mojo, but with longsword maxed and nothing in hammer.

Ah well. Let's see what happens.

>>OTOH, there's no point in using detect magic on a spellbook, you *know*
>>it's magic. Well, except if it works like detect monster or detect
>>object (which means you could learn of its presence without seeing it
>>directly). Oh. Would this mean that it could indicate what statues
>>contain spellbooks? That'd be handy right there.
>>
>
> Very good point. Or when you step onto a level. "You smell
> magic in the air!".

Interesting idea.

> Or the ability to determine the level of a spellbook. Handy
> for non-wizards thinking of reading a spellbook known to be
> uncursed, but otherwise unidentified.
>
> It wouldn't have to be very exact. It's just that it's
> difficult to think there wouldn't be *some* hint of the magnitude
> of the magic detected.

Could be appropriate. High-level spellbooks might radiate 'too hard'
(as with wizards reading spellbooks). Wizards get the ability free,
allowing others to determine this by using detect magic could be
reasonable.

OTOH, this gets back to the possibility of using detect magic to
indicate roughly how poweful an item is, and I'm not sure that's a good
idea. Still, it's *still* less powerful than identify, so it's probably
not out of line.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Doug Freyburger wrote:

> This is why I think it's better to name it instead:
> "blessed spellbook of knock named 31134". This strategy
> is usefull if you keep all of your spellbooks together in
> the same hoard. It works whether the book converts or not
> "blessed blank spellbook named 31134" (which is corny,
> but consider "blessed blank spellbook named knock 31134").

But if you don't carry your spellbook with you (which is usually done due
to weight reasons), then you cannot check before going into a thought
situation if you're teleport away spell will expire in 1 round or in 1000.
While with calling, you can.


And that still doesn't solve the slash'em problem :-D where a
spell-expirancy feature to some detect magic would be useful.

--
Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

Adresse mail plus valide à partir de septembre 2005.
Utiliser l'adresse de redirection permanente :
Jean-Yves.Moyen `at` ens-lyon.org

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:24:42 -0700, Lester wrote:

[Magic items under "detect magic" glowing]

Naq aba-zntvpny nezbe jvgu pnapryyngvba fubhyq or "funqbjrq", "qrrcyl
funqbjrq", be "oynpx nf cvgpu". Nf vg vf, ZP vf haqre-uvagrq va gur tnzr.


> I like this idea. I feel that the barbarian would be the most applicable
> candidate for the magic-detecting class ability, but only after a certain

> Perhaps the best compromise would be simply adding 'detect magic' to the
> possible starting spellbooks of priests and wizards, and also making it
> a possible random starting scroll/potion/wand/anything, really. The monk
> might be a good candidate for this as well.

Rogues are often depicted in fantasy literature as having an talent for
sniffing out magical objects from common junk, as well. It helps the
"business" I guess.

--
- Mantar --- Drop YourPantiesSirWilliam to email me.