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Master Kaen hurts me

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Anonymous
September 13, 2005 10:55:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

I have a monk who is wrapping up everthing he can before tackling the
quest. I have -19 AC, but I can get that to about -25 easily. I've
finished the castle, and used the wand for gauntlets of power and cloak
of MR. I have speed boots. The wand still has one wish left.

I stopped and built a similar character in wizard mode. He played the
quest a few times. Ouch! No way am I ready for Master Kaen.

How is this done? One spoiler I saw said he couldn't follow me over the
lava, but that must have been a previous version. At -19AC, he can kill
me in two turns, while I peel about 20 points off him.

Any ideas?

--Milton

More about : master kaen hurts

September 13, 2005 11:14:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Milton.Pope@gmail.com wrote:
> I have a monk who is wrapping up everthing he can before tackling the
> quest. I have -19 AC, but I can get that to about -25 easily. I've
> finished the castle, and used the wand for gauntlets of power and cloak
> of MR. I have speed boots. The wand still has one wish left.
>
> I stopped and built a similar character in wizard mode. He played the
> quest a few times. Ouch! No way am I ready for Master Kaen.
>
> How is this done? One spoiler I saw said he couldn't follow me over the
> lava, but that must have been a previous version. At -19AC, he can kill
> me in two turns, while I peel about 20 points off him.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> --Milton

Are you a non-lawful monk that has seen less than 2 artifacts in that
game? If so, you might want to wish for an artifact that gives you
half physical damage.

Try to alchemy a stack of full healing potions. Use the full healing
potions to heal yourself when you are fighting Kaen.
September 13, 2005 4:05:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Master Kaen has really really low AC. I think it would be too risky to
fight him while wearing body armor.
Related resources
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 8:22:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Milton.Pope@gmail.com wrote:
> I have a monk who is wrapping up everthing he can before tackling the
> quest. I have -19 AC, but I can get that to about -25 easily. I've
> finished the castle, and used the wand for gauntlets of power and cloak
> of MR. I have speed boots. The wand still has one wish left.
>
> I stopped and built a similar character in wizard mode. He played the
> quest a few times. Ouch! No way am I ready for Master Kaen.
>
> How is this done? One spoiler I saw said he couldn't follow me over the
> lava, but that must have been a previous version. At -19AC, he can kill
> me in two turns, while I peel about 20 points off him.
>
> Any ideas?
>
No one seems to have yet mentioned a /oPolymorph. It's a 'beam' attack,
not a 'ray', which may or may not have a different chance of hitting
him. It sure seems to me that /oDeath miss quite often, but polymorph
doesn't seem to.

Polymorphing Master Kaen is pretty much the same as killing him, because
you can probably handle any creature with ease. Like /oDeath though, you
have to get him before he gets the Eyes.
September 13, 2005 9:01:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Martin Read wrote:

> Assuming maxed luck, luckstone, maxed skill, 14th level, and no gauntlets
> of dexterity:
> Grand Master Martial Arts: +7
> Maxed luck: +13 (+20)
> 18/** Strength: +3 (+23)
> 18 Dexterity: +4 (+27)
> Experience level 14: +14 (+41)
> Body armour penalty: -20 (+21)
> Master Kaen's AC: -10

Edit "Master Kaen's AC: -10" to "Master Kaen's AC: -10 (+11)".


weap-343.txt states "A die from 1 to 20 is rolled and compared to the
to-hit total. If the die roll is less than the to-hit total (or equal
when throwing or kicking), you hit the monster and inflict damage as
described below; otherwise, you miss the monster."

So a d20 is rolled. If the number rolled is lower than 11, then you
hit Kaen. There are 10 out of 20 numbers lower than 11, making a
10/20=50% chance of hitting Kaen.

I can't figure out how you got the +7 to martial arts. weap-343.txt
states "If you are a barehanded Monk not wearing body armour or a
shield, 2 plus your experience level divided by three." This would be
+7 (assuming the game rounds up) only if the Monk isn't wearing armor
[14/3+2=4.66666+2= (rounded up) 5+2 = 7]

Which means I think 7 should be subtracted from your calculations,
which makes your to hit 11-7 = 4. Since there are 3 numbers less than
4, your chance to hit Kaen is 3/20 = 15%
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 9:22:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1126619712.115430.253260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Milton.Pope@gmail.com wrote:

> I stopped and built a similar character in wizard mode. He played the
> quest a few times. Ouch! No way am I ready for Master Kaen.
>
> How is this done? One spoiler I saw said he couldn't follow me over the
> lava, but that must have been a previous version. At -19AC, he can kill
> me in two turns, while I peel about 20 points off him.
>
> Any ideas?

In my only monk ascension I killed Master Kaen using the =FreeAction +
wielded !Paralysis trick. Doesn't even break the weaponless conduct.

--
Panu
"You haven't really been anywhere until you've got back home",
Twoflower in "The Light Fantastic"
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 9:35:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 Milton.Pope@gmail.com wrote:

> I have a monk who is wrapping up everthing he can before tackling the
> quest. I have -19 AC, but I can get that to about -25 easily. I've
> finished the castle, and used the wand for gauntlets of power and cloak
> of MR. I have speed boots. The wand still has one wish left.
>
> I stopped and built a similar character in wizard mode. He played the
> quest a few times. Ouch! No way am I ready for Master Kaen.
>
> How is this done? One spoiler I saw said he couldn't follow me over the
> lava, but that must have been a previous version. At -19AC, he can kill
> me in two turns, while I peel about 20 points off him.

Half physical/magical damages (orb of detection is great for neutral).

Oh, by the way, I hope you now how to recharge your wand of wishing...

Alchemise full-healing. Raise your HPs to at least 200 or 300 (I had
300+half physical when first encountering MK and now never go in the quest
before having at least 200 HPs). Keep some more full healing for drinking
when he hurts.

Free action. He can paralyse you and you don't want it.

Grand master MA/a good artefact (Mojo, a brand) to deals lots of damages.

wand of death, before he grabs the eyes, he might not be protected.

Potion of paralysis (with free action).

Low AC. You have wish left, you can top enchant all your armor and go to
-25 or even lower. If you're high-level enough, you might even want trying
DSM for low AC, iirc the penalties are not so big if you fight with a
weapon... To be used with Mojo or a brand might be a nice idea.

Pet Archon :-) (maybe needs to gain a few levels before hitting MK, don't
remember).

A good use of Elbereth/charm monster can also get ride of Xorn which is
not a bad idea...

--
Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.

Adresse mail plus valide à partir de septembre 2005.
Utiliser l'adresse de redirection permanente :
Jean-Yves.Moyen `at` ens-lyon.org
Anonymous
September 13, 2005 10:04:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:35:59 +0200, Jean-Yves.Moyen@ens-lyon.org
wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 Milton.Pope@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I have a monk who is wrapping up everthing he can before tackling the
>> quest. I have -19 AC, but I can get that to about -25 easily. I've
>> finished the castle, and used the wand for gauntlets of power and cloak
>> of MR. I have speed boots. The wand still has one wish left.
>>
>> I stopped and built a similar character in wizard mode. He played the
>> quest a few times. Ouch! No way am I ready for Master Kaen.
>>
>> How is this done? One spoiler I saw said he couldn't follow me over the
>> lava, but that must have been a previous version. At -19AC, he can kill
>> me in two turns, while I peel about 20 points off him.
>

<snip many valuable suggestions>


To generate more heat (than light):

- Is the master sleep resistant?

- With free action a wielded potion of paralysis is a wonderful
thing, as someone wisely pointed out. Just let me add that
I've used this technique on Death on the Astral Plane with
enjoyable results.

- Master Kaen can *wait*. The invocation artifacts can be
gathered in any order. The Eyes of the Overworld are
unlikely to be worth a "do or die" assault.

- Just like waking Rodney, don't go after Master Kaen (or any
tough Quest Nemesis) until you're *ready*.

- Tough pets help a lot with the Dark One on the wizard Quest.
He's more of a dork though, so at least take a purple worm
(and a ring of conflict, just in case.)

- Most (all?) Quest Nemeses are generated meditating. Don't
disturb them by being visible (or making loud noises?) and
you can get in one attack *before* they pick up the Quest
Object. Make it a good (i.e. instakill) one. Wand of death
seems like a good idea.

- Since he seems to deal out massive physical damage,
half-physical damage bestowing artifacts seem like a good
idea. Massive AC points also seem like a good idea.
Master Kaen will wait patiently until you get the wand
of wishing and DSM. (I believe body armor just affects
a monk's to-hit chances, not damage done per hit. So
if going for a martial arts kill get enchanted GoD, max
luck, and rings of increase damage/accuracy.)



Dead characters don't ascend!



--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 12:02:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 13 Sep 2005 12:05:11 -0700, "Link" <chillynois@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Master Kaen has really really low AC. I think it would be too risky to
>fight him while wearing body armor.


<Presuming you're replying to my post. Lack of context isn't
good in the game or in rgrn. :->


Well, only if body armor reduces the damage martials arts does,
AND you try to hurt Master Kaen *with* Martial Arts. (I tried,
and apparently failed, to make that clear in my original post.
;-)


And having low enough AC can make almost any monster seem like
a wimp. (Demogorgon has been fought naked, but with a naked AC
below -100. Apparently Demogorgon couldn't hit the player at
all. :-)

If Master Kaen can't hit you, he can't hurt you. That's why
posters have suggested levitating over the lava to fight Master
Kaen. (It's the equivalent of very low AC. ;^)

And martial arts can't be used from over the lava anyway. So
if body armor lets the player survive long enough to get over the
lava, it seems the obvious thing to do.


Wands of magic missle, death, lightning, fire, cold, slow
monster, sleep, etc. are not affected by the zapper wearing body
armor. (That I'm aware of. ;^)


Thrown shuriken, daggers, knives, rocks, spears, swords, etc.
ditto.

Spells of finger of death, magic missile, cone of cold, ball
of fire, sleep, slow monster, confuse monster, etc are also not
affected by spell-friendly body armor.


I know body armor reduces the martials arts to-hit probability,
but that can be overcome.


If you can hit Master Kaen the same number of times for the
same amount of damage while wearing body armor, do so.


If body armor keeps the player alive long enough to use *any*
method (including Martial Arts, if the difficulties can be
overcome), then it seems to me wearing body armor is a good
idea.




--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 12:23:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Link" <chillynois@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Master Kaen has really really low AC. I think it would be too risky to
>fight him while wearing body armor.

No monster in the game has "really really low AC", except perhaps
mplayers. AC -10 (as Master Kaen has) is no impediment to the accuracy
of a well-played 14th level character.

Assuming maxed luck, luckstone, maxed skill, 14th level, and no gauntlets
of dexterity:
Grand Master Martial Arts: +7
Maxed luck: +13 (+20)
18/** Strength: +3 (+23)
18 Dexterity: +4 (+27)
Experience level 14: +14 (+41)
Body armour penalty: -20 (+21)
Master Kaen's AC: -10
Chance of a 14th level monk with grand master MA, maxed stats, maxed
luck, and body armour missing Master Kaen with an attack: 5%

In short: By the time you have any chance of taking on Master Kaen, his
AC is irrelevant even if you *are* wearing body armour.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ in the metal and blood in the scent and mascara on a backcloth of
\ / lashes and scars in a flood of your tears in sackcloth and ashes
\/ -- Sisters of Mercy, "Flood I"
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 12:23:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 13 Sep 2005 20:23:05 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
<mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>"Link" <chillynois@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Master Kaen has really really low AC. I think it would be too risky to
>>fight him while wearing body armor.
>
>No monster in the game has "really really low AC", except perhaps
>mplayers. AC -10 (as Master Kaen has) is no impediment to the accuracy
>of a well-played 14th level character.
>
>Assuming maxed luck, luckstone, maxed skill, 14th level, and no gauntlets
>of dexterity:
>Grand Master Martial Arts: +7
>Maxed luck: +13 (+20)
>18/** Strength: +3 (+23)
>18 Dexterity: +4 (+27)
>Experience level 14: +14 (+41)
>Body armour penalty: -20 (+21)
>Master Kaen's AC: -10
>Chance of a 14th level monk with grand master MA, maxed stats, maxed
>luck, and body armour missing Master Kaen with an attack: 5%
>
>In short: By the time you have any chance of taking on Master Kaen, his
>AC is irrelevant even if you *are* wearing body armour.


If this isn't already on the "Nethack Myths" page, this post
should be put there, imho.




--
All the best,

Jove
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 4:02:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 13 Sep 2005 20:23:05 +0100 (BST), Martin Read
><mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
[here, I wrote a good, but not quite right, analysis of monk vs. Master
Kaen and why the body armour penalty doesn't matter]
>>Chance of a 14th level monk with grand master MA, maxed stats, maxed
>>luck, and body armour missing Master Kaen with an attack: 5%

This number should in fact be 45%; I suffered a severe thinko. 5% is
the chance for 22 Dex and 18th level. (or 23 and 17th, or 18 and 22nd)

My mistake. Sorry.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ in the metal and blood in the scent and mascara on a backcloth of
\ / lashes and scars in a flood of your tears in sackcloth and ashes
\/ -- Sisters of Mercy, "Flood I"
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 4:52:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:22:24 -0500, Andy Johnson
<swervy.a@take-this.out.gmail.com> wrote:

>Milton.Pope@gmail.com wrote:
>> I have a monk who is wrapping up everthing he can before tackling the
>> quest. I have -19 AC, but I can get that to about -25 easily. I've
>> finished the castle, and used the wand for gauntlets of power and cloak
>> of MR. I have speed boots. The wand still has one wish left.
>>
>> I stopped and built a similar character in wizard mode. He played the
>> quest a few times. Ouch! No way am I ready for Master Kaen.
>>
>> How is this done? One spoiler I saw said he couldn't follow me over the
>> lava, but that must have been a previous version. At -19AC, he can kill
>> me in two turns, while I peel about 20 points off him.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>No one seems to have yet mentioned a /oPolymorph. It's a 'beam' attack,
>not a 'ray', which may or may not have a different chance of hitting
>him. It sure seems to me that /oDeath miss quite often, but polymorph
>doesn't seem to.
>
>Polymorphing Master Kaen is pretty much the same as killing him, because
>you can probably handle any creature with ease. Like /oDeath though, you
>have to get him before he gets the Eyes.

Good suggestion.


Can he follow you over lava, or are you (Andy) not getting to
it quickly enough? IIRC Master Kaen is meditating when you enter
the level. He won't "wake up" unless you're in line of sight and
visible. (HINT: be invisible. ;^)

Try that in wizard mode. Or try teleporting to the lava in
wizard mode. I'd be surprised if any Quest nemesis (except
possibly a fire giant) could stand on lava unharmed.

Make sure that *you* can be on/over lava unharmed, too. :-D

And make sure you have plenty of ranged attacks, and can hit
Master Kaen if he teleports to the upstairs.

If Master Kaen escapes up the stairs...you're on your own. ;^)

Sneaking up, stealthy and invisible, and valiantly rabbit-
punching a sleeping Master Kaen with a wand of death sounds
better and better.

Search for traps several times before each step. One squeaky
board could ruin your whole day. (Isn't one of the Quest Nemeses
protected by a "nightengale" floor? Sounds like a made-up excuse
for poor maintenance. ;^)

Have a cursed scroll of teleport (or two, or three) for an
emergency escape if everything goes pear-shaped. (Then do the
rest of the dungeon, wake up Rodney. And lead Rodney to the
Master and put on a ring of conflict. Be sure to report back
with what happens because *I'm* sure not gonna' try it. ;^)



--
All the best,

Jove
September 14, 2005 10:08:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Martin Read wrote:
> "Link" <chillynois@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >I can't figure out how you got the +7 to martial arts.
>
> There are two to-hit bonuses applicable to unarmed attacks made by a monk.
>
> The first is the class bonus for being a monk. (XL / 3 rounded down) + 2
> if you're not wearing body armour and have both hands empty, 0 if you're
> not wearing body armour but have something in one of your hands, and -20
> if you are wearing body armour. Note that the armour penalty applies to
> *all* attacks by unpolymorphed monks, not just unarmed attacks.
>
> The second is the skill bonus for having [whatever level] in the martial
> arts skill. For grand master, this bonus is +7. Wearing armour does
> not turn off your martial arts skill.
> --
> Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
> \_\/_/ in the metal and blood in the scent and mascara on a backcloth of
> \ / lashes and scars in a flood of your tears in sackcloth and ashes
> \/ -- Sisters of Mercy, "Flood I"

Ahh, I see it now. weap-340.txt lists a to-hit value for martial arts,
but all versions newer than weap-340.txt are missing the to-hit value
for martial arts. Is this something that should be added to
weap-343.txt?

I checked doc/fixes34.1 (and the newer fixes files), and no mention is
made that the martial to-hit value was removed. So I think that the
spoiler is missing the to-hit value.
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 3:10:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Link" <chillynois@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I can't figure out how you got the +7 to martial arts.

There are two to-hit bonuses applicable to unarmed attacks made by a monk.

The first is the class bonus for being a monk. (XL / 3 rounded down) + 2
if you're not wearing body armour and have both hands empty, 0 if you're
not wearing body armour but have something in one of your hands, and -20
if you are wearing body armour. Note that the armour penalty applies to
*all* attacks by unpolymorphed monks, not just unarmed attacks.

The second is the skill bonus for having [whatever level] in the martial
arts skill. For grand master, this bonus is +7. Wearing armour does
not turn off your martial arts skill.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ in the metal and blood in the scent and mascara on a backcloth of
\ / lashes and scars in a flood of your tears in sackcloth and ashes
\/ -- Sisters of Mercy, "Flood I"
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 6:21:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Link" <chillynois@yahoo.com> wrote:
[quoting my signature along with the content of my post; please don't
quote signatures unless you're actually commenting on them.]
>Ahh, I see it now. weap-340.txt lists a to-hit value for martial arts,
>but all versions newer than weap-340.txt are missing the to-hit value
>for martial arts. Is this something that should be added to
>weap-343.txt?

What is needed in weap-343.txt are columns for +HIT for bare-handed
combat and martial arts. They'd look like this:

BARE-HAND MARTIAL
+HIT +HIT
~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~
+1 n/a
+1 +3
+2 +4
+2 +5
+3 +6
+3 +7

(Unskilled Martial Arts is n/a because if it's called "martial arts" for
your class, you start the game with the skill already at Basic.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
\ / the sweeney's doing ninety cos they've got the word to go they've got a
\/ bunch of villains in a shed up at Heathrow -- Squeeze, "Cool For Cats"
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 6:49:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Link" <chillynois@yahoo.com> writes:
> Martin Read wrote:
> > "Link" <chillynois@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >I can't figure out how you got the +7 to martial arts.
> >
> > There are two to-hit bonuses applicable to unarmed attacks made by a monk.

> > The second is the skill bonus for having [whatever level] in the martial
> > arts skill. For grand master, this bonus is +7. Wearing armour does
> > not turn off your martial arts skill.
>
> Ahh, I see it now. weap-340.txt lists a to-hit value for martial arts,
> but all versions newer than weap-340.txt are missing the to-hit value
> for martial arts. Is this something that should be added to
> weap-343.txt?
>
> I checked doc/fixes34.1 (and the newer fixes files), and no mention is
> made that the martial to-hit value was removed. So I think that the
> spoiler is missing the to-hit value.

No, it was removed for the excellent reason that I noticed (and
reported) that bare-handed and martial arts skill to-hit bonuses,
although they have code to calculate them, are never actually
applied. Both calls of weapon_hit_bonus() in uhitm.c are within "if
(uwep)" guards. Once that bug's fixed, I'll put the tables back.

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." :
: -- Ciszek's Adaptation of Clarke's Third Law :
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 3:05:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

psmith@spod-central.org wrote:
>No, it was removed for the excellent reason that I noticed (and
>reported) that bare-handed and martial arts skill to-hit bonuses,
>although they have code to calculate them, are never actually
>applied. Both calls of weapon_hit_bonus() in uhitm.c are within "if
>(uwep)" guards. Once that bug's fixed, I'll put the tables back.

Ewww.

OK. So a 14th level monk does, in fact, care about the -20 penalty for
body armour when using martial arts.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
\ / the sweeney's doing ninety cos they've got the word to go they've got a
\/ bunch of villains in a shed up at Heathrow -- Squeeze, "Cool For Cats"
!