Minetown...dangerous?

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I'm fairly new to Nethack, a fact shown by the fact that this is my
first time I reached Minetown. I got to Minetown with a level 8 wizard
(helped in no small part by the very nice boots of speed I found early
on,) and got there through a trapdoor (though that shouldn't have made
a difference.) Early on, I saw it was not the place of peace of quiet
I had imagined. There appear to be about fifty orcs there, all of
which want to kill me. I was reduced to hiding in the spellbook store
behind the shopkeeper, when a happy accident (the Uruk-hai shoots an
arrow! The arrow hits *keepername*! The arrow was poisoned! The
poison was deadly...) led to a jump in my known spells, but that was
about it. I had to fight a bunch of orcs, which isn't fun when there
are about ten of them, all of which want you dead. I couldn't find the
time to go around and visit the shops because I was too busy being
assaulted by orcs (and later, elves.) Is this normal? Is it because
I'm a gnome? Would this be much more annoying if I weren't a gnome,
and, thus, all the gnomes and dwarves attacked me? How can I find the
time to visit shops when the only way I can survive is by running
around invisible?
 
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Medi.Guy@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm fairly new to Nethack, a fact shown by the fact that this is my
> first time I reached Minetown. I got to Minetown with a level 8 wizard
....
> I couldn't find the
> time to go around and visit the shops because I was too busy being
> assaulted by orcs (and later, elves.)

Well, it sounds like you may have been a little unlucky with the number
of monsters generated (perhaps it was a boones file?) but by and large
a level 8 wizard should be able to handle minetown without too much
panic. Sounds to me like maybe you need some general "keeping early
characters alive" advice.

1 - Use your pet, especially if you are going to play wizards. Keep
Tiddles by your side at all times, and let her do most of the killing.
As she advances, she gets more dangerous.
2- Be aware that the higher your own level, the higher the level of
monsters you will encounter. keep your level low until you can improve
your AC.
3- Engrave. A lot. Again, this is especailly good advice for wizards.
4- Get your AC down. Even wizards can scrounge up decent armour in the
dungeon- hobbits often carry leather armour. Check it's not cursed and
try it on.
5- Missile weapons. Throw daggers. Use wands and spells. Hell, throw
rocks if that's all that's available. No point letting them close and
wear down your hit points if you can take them out (or at least soften
them up) from afar.
 
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I don't like having a pet. (Somehow I like the challenge of going it
alone). With wizards, I go straight down, into the mines, and show up
at mine town. Luckily I play wizards often so I'm good at getting them
out of trouble... but did I mention that I don't believe in 'Elbereth'
and have never engraved it once? :) Oh well.

In minetown, you want to stay in the open, so you can see for a long
distance. Back up to let monsters group into lines, so you can force
bolt 3 or 4 at once (or magic missile... if you know it). In minetown
I always figure look for spellbooks that even might have base price
300, since those might be charm monster (which can get you out of just
about any fight) or identify (which is generally awesome). Make sure
you find all the ID scrolls you can, so you know what resources are
around better. If the temple's coaligned (and you stay alive until you
find it) you can always hide in there... Basically, ID as much
magical stuff (wands especially) asap and then figure out how to use
whatever you've got to fight, or get out of fights, or whatever's your
problem. If you really need to heal, you can always hide in a shop,
pick something up and stand near the door so the shopkeeper will block
the door and no one can see you.
I usually tend to level up relatively quickly, since I play without a
pet. I find that (for wizards at least) the extra skill slots for
whatever types of good spells you learn and practice, and especially
the extra mana so you can keep casting your spells in battle, make a
big difference.

don't give up on those wizards :)

Good luck
 
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dogscoff@eudoramail.com wrote:
> Medi.Guy@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I'm fairly new to Nethack, a fact shown by the fact that this is my
> > first time I reached Minetown. I got to Minetown with a level 8 wizard
> ...
> > I couldn't find the
> > time to go around and visit the shops because I was too busy being
> > assaulted by orcs (and later, elves.)
>
> Well, it sounds like you may have been a little unlucky with the number
> of monsters generated (perhaps it was a boones file?) but by and large
> a level 8 wizard should be able to handle minetown without too much
> panic. Sounds to me like maybe you need some general "keeping early
> characters alive" advice.

My additions -

1) Run away, and stay near the up-stairs until each level
is nearly emptied of monsters. Levels start with a bunch
of monsters but they aren't created all that fast. For
each level move in a short ways, kill several monsters,
and retreat to a more shallow level well before you are in
trouble. You want to carry one corpse up for food and
repeat the cycle until that level is cleared out.

2) With a wizard use attack spells on everything but
nymphs. Force bolt spell sounds like it only works on
doors, but it is actually the effect of a wand of striking.
use it regularly and keep track of your spell power points.
When you run low, retreat just like you got into trouble
with low hit points. Until IN=17 this will cost hunger
so eat plentifully whenever possible.

3) Throw daggers and pick up daggers. These will
eventually become your primary non-magical weapons
eventually so start throwing them now. Throw almost
any other weapon or rock as well.

The general system when stating a new level is to drop
anything heavy near the down-stairs, descend, advance
throwing daggers, retreat throwing spells, end up
picking up one corpse, maybe some armor and other
weapons, go back up, feast while healing, lather rinse
repeat. It takes a bunch of cycles but you end up
clearing out each level as you go and you end up with
small hoards near each down stairs at first. Also let
your pet handle anything that is not a serious challenge
for you at your current level.

It is also important to take out the most dangerous
monster first, to use corridors to ensure that only one
can attack you at once, to do your best to fire into
lines of monsters so one spell will hit more than one
monster, to learn to tell what's cursed, to upgrade
your armor constantly based on your class.
 
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On 15 Sep 2005 19:43:11 -0700, Medi.Guy@gmail.com wrote:

<Some reformatting done to make commenting easier.>
<Paragraphs, Medi-Guy! Paragraphs!>



>I'm fairly new to Nethack, a fact shown by the fact that this is my
>first time I reached Minetown.

Congratulations.


>I got to Minetown with a level 8 wizard

Not great, not terrible. Monster difficulty is based on an
average of dungeon level and character XP level. So both going
too deep too fast and advancing XP level too fast brings you
up against more difficult monsters before you can handle them.

How fast is too fast? Too fast is faster than you're improving
a) your equipment (armor, weapons) or
b) your character (skill,str, speed, con, dex, wis,etc.)

As you have found, since a wizard starts out dead slow, Boots
of speed are great equipment for improving an early wizard's
survivability.

>(helped in no small part by the very nice boots of speed I found early
>on,)

Boots of speed are probably the best single item an early
wizard can find. Lucky you!


>and got there through a trapdoor (though that shouldn't have made
>a difference.)

Agreed.


>Early on, I saw it was not the place of peace of quiet
>I had imagined.

About one time in three there will be a place of refuge for
your character in Mine Town. Not really enough to rely on.

There are almost no places of peace and quiet in Nethack. ;^)



>There appear to be about fifty orcs there, all of
>which want to kill me.

This is a frequent occurrence. Players who want to be
univerally loved in the game face an arduous task. ;-)


>I was reduced to hiding in the spellbook store
>behind the shopkeeper, when a happy accident (the Uruk-hai shoots an
>arrow! The arrow hits *keepername*! The arrow was poisoned! The
>poison was deadly...) led to a jump in my known spells, but that was
>about it.

Very lucky you. But as you have found early wizards have great
difficulty surviving strictly as a spellcaster.


>I had to fight a bunch of orcs, which isn't fun when there
>are about ten of them, all of which want you dead. I couldn't find the
>time to go around and visit the shops because I was too busy being
>assaulted by orcs (and later, elves.)

Where are your pets? Allies are always nice to have. And they
can get tougher by killing monsters. Killing monsters that might
advance your character's XP level too fast if you had to kill
them all.

Yes, you can tame more pets than just your starting pet. How
would you make friends with a strange dog in real life? (Not
that real life is always a good guide for behavior in NetHack.
This is a hint, not a guiding rule. ;^)

A couple of good pets can clear out Mine Town nicely. (Heck,
players have ascended without having their characters kill
anything.)

Pets can also help you with improving your equipment safely.

(NB: Putting questions on a separate line separated out by
blank lines makes answering them much easier. And you do want
answers, don't you? :)

>Is this normal?

The near-universal hostility? Oh, yes!


>Is it because I'm a gnome?

Possibly. Your alignment can also figure into it. But no
matter what your alignment/race there will be plenty of monsters
that hate you on sight in the dungeon.


>Would this be much more annoying if I weren't a gnome,
>and, thus, all the gnomes and dwarves attacked me?

More annoying? Difficult to say. More deadly? Definitely.


> How can I find the
>time to visit shops when the only way I can survive is by running
>around invisible?


There are ways to controllably become briefly visible again.
(Sometimes it's even safe to try. ;^)


Early wizards lack everything, except magic resistance and
Int. They're slow, weak, fragile, clumsy, ugly, unwise, and
poorly skilled. They don't have good offense or defense, food,
weapons, or armor.

You pet can help a lot here. Just remember that pets are much
better at *keeping* you out of trouble than *getting* you out of
trouble.

Luckily, these things can be improved. Sokoban is where
I go first with my starting wizards for the food and equipment
to be found there, and to exercise strength.

Improving Str can help both offensively and defensively.
You'll hit harder with weapons and can carry more armor.
(Do NOT be burdened or worse with an early wizard. The only
speed slower than dead slow is DEAD slow. ;^)

Improving weapons and weapons skill comes down to one weapon:
daggers. A wizard's guaranteed first gift from their god is
Magicbane. Magicbane uses dagger skill. Wizards can #enhance
dagger skill up to Expert level, once they met the requirements.

And Expert skill level allows throwing up to three daggers per
move. (Even at melee range! :)

Daggers are -

- relatively easy to come by,

- can be thrown without risking getting them stuck to your
hand, (and cursed daggers will occasionally let you know
they are cursed when thrown), and are

- probably the easiest weapon to start weapon skill from
scratch early, since all daggers get a +2 to hit bonus.
(If you don't hit with a weapon, you can't #enhance your
skill with it.)

With the autoquiver and 'f'ire capabilities, the quarterstaff
can continue to be wielded while taking advantage of flinging
daggers.

Don't waste "skill slots" enhancing quarterstaff skill.
You'll just end up using Magicbane anyway. And using a
quarterstaff prevents you from wearing a shield of any
kind. As soon as you've got dagger skill up a bit, and
have a good (wooden/elven) safe dagger to wield, dump the
quarterstaff.

(NB: At least one wizard has ascended using the quarterstaff.
If you love the quarterstaff, go with it.)

The other thing an early wizard desperately needs to do is
lower AC. So try on all almost armor THAT YOU CAN TAKE OFF
AGAIN. (Don't bother with most cloaks. Guess why. ;^)

Your pet can help determine what armor is capable of
being removed easily. There's also a guaranteed location in
Mine Town that's even better than a pet in determining this.

Evaluate every safe piece of armor for -
- weight (i.e. burdened state)
- protection added
- spell-friendliness

Do this even if you're already wearing a piece of armor of that
persuasion. The new piece might be better in one or more of the
above categories, or even all three.

Especially try on SAFE helms, boots, shields, and gloves.
Since so many more of these are to be found in the dungeon
you are more likely to find some with higher enchantments.
And if you get good enough accessories, great spell-hostile
body armor can switched for merely good spell-friendly body
armor.

Why the body armor? Because -
- That takes so long to wear/remove.
- Removing/wearing body armor requires removing your security
blanket: the cloak of magic resistance.
- Body armor can have a large effect on spellcasting.


Spell-friendliness is highly optional. Besides, you can take
armor off, when not in danger, to cast spells. And some spells
useful in battle can be cast ahead of time, because they last.
They can even be "pumped-up" by repeated casting.

These spells with lasting effects are ideal for an early
wizard. Cast them once whenever your Pw is maxed and you can
safely do so, at least once you've gained a bit more Pw from
advancing XP.


Other spells aren't directly useful during battle anyway. And
your pet can help protect you while you're not in your armor.
Learn how long each type of armor takes to put on or take off.

Hint: Larger shields massively hurt spell-casting ability,
but can be taken off in one turn, then put back on in another
turn. So a +4 elven shield (which I have found before) was
definitely worn.

Spell-unfriendly body armor combined with spell-unfriendly
accessories (Accessorize! ;^) can easily give 100% on all spells.
So what? Negative total AC is worth it. (Mithril is wonderfully
light *and* protective, although spell-unfriendly. Wear safe
mithril if you find it early. Consider highly enchanted mithril
at almost any time.)

The point is that early spell-hostile armor can help you
survive until you can get more spell-friendly armor. And at that
point you've probably got more and better spells, as well as more
Pw to cast them.

Weight of armor is important because being burdened or worse
slows down an already slow wizard. If a nice piece of armor
makes you burdened, think hard about dumping/stashing something
*else* to lighten the load. (There are few things better than
good armor to carry into battle. ;^)




Back to your current game. You're in trouble, with no allies,
no refuge, and spells that are keeping you alive, but that's all.
Your only decent pieces of equipment are probably your Cloak of
Magic Resistance (CoMR) and your speed boots.

Let a nymph steal one or both and....



Still, you've done well to get this far in this manner. You
have the most important skill imaginable: survival. (Dead
characters don't ascend! ;^) A big part of survival skill
is recognizing when you're in over your head *before* it's too
late. (DYWYPI? is a good indication, after the fact. :)


Staying where you are seems like a bad idea (for now),
going on will just make things worse. Luckily, NetHack is
non-linear, so retreat to (relatively) safer levels is a viable
option.

Go get better stats, skills, equipment and allies. Don't worry
about identifying items other than armor. What you need are
emergency items and monsters will identify those for you by using
them for their own emergencies.

The most important NetHack skill is keeping your character
alive. Stay alive and almost everything else can be worked out
eventually. Dead characters don't ascend.


And if your character dies, make sure s/he dies on a pile of
exhausted wands, empty potion bottles, and scraps of parchment on
top of illegible scribblings in the dust, cursing their pet(s)
for eating while there's work to be don, and *especially* cursing
their god for punishing them for their last #prayer.


--
All the best,

Jove
 
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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:

> On 15 Sep 2005 19:43:11 -0700, Medi.Guy@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>and got there through a trapdoor (though that shouldn't have made
>>a difference.)
>
> Agreed.

Except that it isn't. This why he hadn't his pets with him.

Topi
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
 
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Jove wrote:

> On 15 Sep 2005 19:43:11 -0700, Medi.Guy@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>and got there through a trapdoor (though that shouldn't have made
>>a difference.)
>
> Agreed.

Except that it did make a difference. This is why he didn't have his
pets with him.

Topi
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous