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Intel FAB-18 and future liabilities

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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 6, 2001 6:58:52 PM

I dare to hope that Tomshardware forum is brave enough to look into the human component of making chips. We should not wait 50 years for disclosures and reparations.

Last year Intel exported products valued at $1.3 billion from a plant in "Kiryat Gat" called FAB-18. Intel's Israeli facilities are slated to manufacture a large portion of Intel's Pentium 4 chips. The plant site is located on land that belongs to the Palestinian village of Iraq Al Manshiya.

Meron Benvensti wrote in his book "Sacred Landscape: The Buried History of the Holy Land Since 1948" (Univ. of Calif. Press, 2000, p. 156): "The signing of the armistice agreement did not put an end to the expulsions [by Israel]. In late February 1949, the remaining inhabitants of the township of Faluja and the village of Iraq al-Manshiyya...were expelled. Approximately 3,000 people were ejected from their communities, despite Israel's having guaranteed that they could remain there with full security to themselves, their homes, and all their property." He also added in page 318: "In Iraq al-Manshiyya...the remnants of the village of 2000 (approximately 300 houses, two mosques, and a school) have been swallowed up by the industrial park of the city of Kiryat Gat. "

According to the Israeli historian Benny Morris, the expulsion was achieved by "intimidation using all means". For more information see: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Gaza/Iraq-al-Manshiy...

Unless Intel takes appropriate measures to re-locate FAB facilities from questionable lands acquired by force and occupation, I am going AMD 100%.

Dasala, PhD
August 6, 2001 7:07:37 PM

As long as nike uses 5 year olds and pays them 10 cents an hour to make 100 dollar shoes, i'm not jumping on any company that is on lands that were obtained by force. Israel needs to shut up for awhile anyway. If people think the US has problems with religion battles and hatred, take a trip to Israel (with the proper protection, of c -- like a tank and a machine gun). People that see the land as so holy really are hypocrites for killing each other to obtain it. And i'm not saying this for defending Intel. AMD can produce their chips right on the site of the old Solomon temple for all i care. *steps off soap box*.

Althons and Pentiums are just melted rock. Who’s rock is better? Who cares, let’s play some games
August 6, 2001 8:40:16 PM

When will people realize that the 10 cents an hour is probably more than their parents make?
How many people here have ever lived in a 3rd world country? I have, and I can't stand it when people want to stop Nike from paying people a great wage (for their country), for an easy job. In most of these countries, only a skilled worker (skilled is a relative term, I know) could make as much money as Nike throws at them all the time.

-----------------------
Quarter pounder inside
Related resources
August 6, 2001 9:11:42 PM

Oh i know, it's not really that i hate the way they do that. What i hate is the incredible markup. Nike makes products really cheaply and then marks them up so much. And Phil Knight is evil, cuz, well, he is :) . *don't flame me for that last remark, i already know it's not smart*. In intel's and AMD's cases, as with most companies, they put labor in other countries not for the cheap labor, but for the area. Why does intel have fabs all over the world? Much easier to ship to Iraq when the factory is in Israel, right? :)  And i'm not completely against child labor in other countries. In a lot of cases it beats the alternative (a common practice of some parents in other countries is to beat up their kids so the kids will make more money begging on the street -- if they are crippled, they earn more cash, how sick is that?).

Althons and Pentiums are just melted rock. Who’s rock is better? Who cares, let’s play some games
August 6, 2001 9:31:16 PM

Quote:
When will people realize that the 10 cents an hour is probably more than their parents make?

Not really in some cases where more than 40% of that had been taxed and <b>Fees</b> (!!!) by their own goverment.
Quote:
I have, and I can't stand it when people want to stop Nike from paying people a great wage (for their country)

That's not the main reason! Have you heard the story from Vietnam that Nike contracted to one of Korean contractor and its manager had forced people working overtime (but not paying OT wage), insulting and beating people, ... Only when some Civil Right groups investigated that, NIKE had to cancel that contractor.

:smile: Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.
August 6, 2001 10:41:17 PM

Two very good points.
I've said it many times (although not here): Third-world countries are third-world for a reason. Although this may be controversial and/or racist, it's true. In most third-world countries, the average person has, for instance, no business sense.

When I lived in Uganda, it was routine practice to not feed the milk cow. "We care about the milk, not the cow.", then when it dies, they worry because they have no more milk. It's not that hard to feed the cow, yet they don't do it.

I realize that education is a big part of that, which is why there's an international organization to bring technology to third-world countries. People might argue that they need food and money more than computers (and that's true), but very little of international aid gets to the people. It was incredibly frustrating to be in Uganda and see the people living in mud huts with no food and a dead cow, then go to the country's Sheraton and see 80 shiny new Mercedes owned by the government lined up, not even being driven.



Haven't heard much about unfair working conditions, just "unfair" wages. I agree though, the employees should have good rights. Of course, again that is relative to the country's laws. If every worker in that country is treated that way, then it's not a big deal.


Ok, I'll stop my rant.

-----------------------
Quarter pounder inside
August 6, 2001 11:21:45 PM

why don't you go to war and be done with it? throwing rocks aint gonna do it, bro. If you got claim to land, go to W-A-R don't drag it out for 100 yrs.

you should be lucky Intel is over there homey! me, I would never open a business where men: get their hands cut off, drawn and quartered, public executions,beheadings. women: walk in public covered up from head to toe, set on fire daily by husbands, etc. eye for eye right? hehehe.

I don't think Intel's gonna miss you.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
August 6, 2001 11:46:39 PM

Umm....I don't know much about the Middle East, but I think that Israel is nothing like, "where men: get their hands cut off, drawn and quartered, public executions,beheadings. women: walk in public covered up from head to toe, set on fire daily by husbands." That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. I think it is the Islamic religion that requires women to not show skin or such, but hands cut off? Drawn and quartered? Public executions? I think not. The most rediculous comment was the one about WOMEN BEING SET ON FIRE BY HUSBANDS?!?! DAILY AT THAT?!? How f**cking insane are you? Now I really know not to trust anything you write on these forums, as it is distorted like everything else you put.


Oh yeah, and "eye for an eye" was Hammurabi's Code for sure. I do not believe that still applies, as this took place close to 3700 years ago. Get your facts straight, damned idiot.

Oh, and also, if you had noticed, the Middle East has had religious tension since before Jesus. You really think war will stop it? I think not. Any anger or hatred that can survive 2000+ years of struggle can survive a war, I think. God, you really are a complete, useless moron.
August 6, 2001 11:58:10 PM

Quote:

Oh i know, it's not really that i hate the way they do that. What i hate is the incredible markup. Nike makes products really cheaply and then marks them up so much.


Hmm, sound like some other company we know?

--
It's Princess Leia, the yodel of my life. Give me my sweater back or I'll play the guitar.
August 7, 2001 12:00:30 AM

I guess you haven't learned to ignore the FAB-3. (well, it's only 2 right now).

--
It's Princess Leia, the yodel of my life. Give me my sweater back or I'll play the guitar.
August 7, 2001 1:51:25 AM

what i find kind of sad is the new footage israel/jerusalem/westbank/gaza strip. the place where hundreds of people die each year, willingly or not, for some of the most barren and rocky land ive ever seen.
and their constant fighting ensures that over time it becomes even more inhospitable.

and another thing... if Intel thought there was even a remote chance that the ladnd their Fab was put on was going back to palistinian control, whould they have built it?


Quote from the Hamster: "Why is it that Morons are just smart enough to understand how to breed?"
August 7, 2001 2:48:51 AM

I wonder if Intel has its own version of the patriot missile system? Would that have 20 stages too?
August 7, 2001 3:46:57 AM

yeah...
and it probably has "Big burst archetecture"TM.
(for us normals that means it goes bang)


Quote from the Hamster: "Why is it that Morons are just smart enough to understand how to breed?"
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 7, 2001 8:12:51 AM

First time ever I agree with you 100% meltdown
August 7, 2001 1:11:54 PM

i've gained some respect for meltdown... not for long though... just nuke the sh!thole you cant farm the land anyway...

if in doubt blame microsoft...
August 7, 2001 1:49:00 PM

Oh percentage wise intel's not even close to Nike. Be reasonable.

Althons and Pentiums are just melted rock. Who’s rock is better? Who cares, let’s play some games
August 7, 2001 3:08:04 PM

Quote:
Third-world countries are third-world for a reason. Although this may be controversial and/or racist, it's true. In most third-world countries, the average person has, for instance, no business sense.


I don't think it is like that at all. A lot of it is because of the third world debt. Most countries can't even repay the annual interest let alone the actual debt. It is funny that the british government sold indonesia some hawk jet fighters, and when they couldn't pay for the jets, the british gave them a loan.

A lot of the people in the 3rd world countries are proud people that want to work. But the living cost is so high the children have to work as well. For example, in bangladesh (for those not in the know, it is an overpopulated country surrounded by india) the financial situation is pretty bad. The government can't/doesn't do a lot about it. I haven't been there in a long while, but I saw a programme lately when British Labour party MP Oona King went there, she did see a lot of poverty, but a lot of people trying and working hard to make ends meet. There were plenty of people begging, but but plenty of people making opportunities from themselves as well as others.

There was this lady that was helping girls out of prostitution. She had a small textile company with a couple of threading machines and a pool of sewing machines. There was no charity or official support. She started out by just sewing clothes for other companies then she bought her own machine and went freelance. Now she finds and helps the girls by giving them jobs. Its not exactly entrepreneurship but its a start.

There was an incedent involving adidas I think, who employed 6 to 7 year olds, working long hours. 10-12 year olds were handling heavy machinery. The place was closed after an investigation by western and local police. (Don't quote me on this one I just think it was adidas)

Gap have a factory in bangladesh where they had a Childrens initiative. They give opportunities to over 12s. They pay the childrens' school fees (most schools in bangladesh need fees, there are a handful of free/public ones) and the kids work evening shifts, some of whom make almost as much as their parents. Even $10ph works out pretty ok but I think they got more. But I heard some (unconfirmed) rhumors where gap was under investigation as well.

Also, it is quite a fair country. It is a 30 year old country (independant since 1971, you might remember from The "Concert for Bangladesh" by Bob Dylan, Ringo starr, George Harrison etal in madison square garden or "The anti-Bangladesh vinyl" in Apu's house in the simpsons :lol:  ) that has already had two women prime-ministers. Although the government has been corrupt most of the way (But corruption is everywhere even in the US the UK, everywhere). But there isn't much sexism there. And I don't think there are any hostilities towards the minorities living there. Although there was some opposition when the some burmese were seeking asylam because of the civil war there.

There can be some aristocracy amongst the wealthy though.

So, I don't think it is right to think of any country as the typical image we get when we hear the phrase "third world country". Because very few will match the image we get and the attached stigmata.



<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday</i></font color=red>

edit: just changed a "to" to a "two".<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by holygrenade on 08/07/01 04:31 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 7, 2001 3:27:24 PM

Very true. My point is though, that third-world countries aren't poor because of something that isn't their fault. Yes, there are people working to make a difference, but in general the country is poor and backwards because of dishonest/lazy people. Not all of them are, but there are enough to drag the rest of them down.

In Uganda, the military and police all have assault rifles. It's strange to walk the streets with 15 AK-47's in sight. However, all robberies are done by people who, mysteriously have the same weapons. There's no black market for that sort of thing, normal people can't get guns at all.
That's the kind of thing I'm talking about, government screwing their country, and nobody willing/able to make a change.

-----------------------
Quarter pounder inside
August 7, 2001 3:42:59 PM

The thing is, even if the government wants to improve the country and bring it out of poverty, it is very difficult with the current debt and the its interest.


<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
August 7, 2001 5:54:17 PM

First of all, the reason 3rd world countries are third world is becuase their governments don't give two shits about their populations, repaying debts, or much of anything beyond the gold crusting their crowns and the AK-47s slung over their brute squad enforcers' shoulders. If they did, they'd be buying food and agricultural technology instead of jet fighters. And while it is true that petty curruption exists in almost every form of government, it exists on a completely different level in your average 3rd world nation.

The populations aren't completely free of blame, either. I really have a hard time understanding the confused pity the 'rich' western world lays on these impoverished nations. It doesn't take a highschool diploma to figure out that if you can't feed 2 kids, you shouldn't sh*t out 14. If your boy just got shot in the head on his way back from buying bread, maybe you should considering getting the hell out of there. If half your neighborhood is dying of AIDs, maybe you should keep it in your friggen pants. Instead, the western world spends BILLIONs on aid and forgiven debts. We force our medical research companies (who spend millions developing these miracle drugs) to give it away to people that lack even the most basic concept of prevention. We finance a coup, hoping the new gov't will provide a better life for their people, but they just turn around and screw them worse than the last.

As far as I'm concerned, if you want to run around shooting everything in site instead of growing tomorrow's lunch, blowing up babies and grandmothers over a patch of dirt, f*cking everything with a pulse and hips, you really shouldn't complain when your town gets firebombed, your family dies of starvation or disease, or you have to send your 6 year old to the shoe factory so you can afford to eat. I don't understand how there can be so much conflict. I've got 10 different nationalities on my block, you don't see me bombing strip malls. People get their land taken away all the time. I don't see anyone clamouring to give Italy or Mongolia any land back. Or Germany or England. So you got your asses kicked. Grow up and deal with it. You wont be the first, and you certainly won't be the last.

-= This is our wading pool.
Stop pissing in it. =-
August 7, 2001 5:57:09 PM

Harshly said, but basically true.

-----------------------
Quarter pounder inside
August 7, 2001 9:09:51 PM

Quote:
the reason 3rd world countries are third world is becuase their governments don't give two shits about their populations

<b>True for some governments, esp. dictatorships.</b>


Quote:
repaying debts, or much of anything beyond the gold crusting their crowns

<b>Its true some of the african oil rich countries can afford to pay back all their debts and interest two times over, but the gov't just keeps the money. Recently there was one report where the dictator of an african country had a swiss bank account where all the funds were diverted. But this doesn't hold true to the majority of the countries</b>


Quote:
the AK-47s slung over their brute squad enforcers' shoulders

<b>Again this is true to dictatorships and even some elected heavy handed gov'ts</b>


Quote:
If they did, they'd be buying food and agricultural technology instead of jet fighters.

<b>Indonesia had special ties with the western world, esp. during the east timor wars, when the Australian gov't wrote a letter to UK and US gov'ts not to asking them not to get involved. I have no idea what was going on there!</b>

Quote:
average 3rd world nation

<b>I don't believe there is such a thingas an average 3rd world country, but only a western world stereotype of what a 3rd world country is.</b>


Quote:
It doesn't take a highschool diploma to figure out that if you can't feed 2 kids, you shouldn't sh*t out 14

<b>I'm not sure about other countries, but bangladesh had family planning initiatives since the late eighties. They have incentives for families with one or two children</b>


Quote:
your boy just got shot in the head on his way back from buying bread, maybe you should considering getting the hell out of there.

<b>Not everyone has the opportunities or even the means to relocate just like that</b>


Quote:
If half your neighborhood is dying of AIDs, maybe you should keep it in your friggen pants. Instead, the western world spends BILLIONs on aid and forgiven debts. We force our medical research companies (who spend millions developing these miracle drugs) to give it away to people that lack even the most basic concept of prevention.

<b>forgiven debts? No when the hell did that happen?

Actually it is in africa that aids vaccines are being researched. Though it is by a western company. The found these prostitutes that are immune. but the thing is, when the cure is found it will be sold at high prices, and it is the africans and the rest of the third world countries that will not benifit.</b>


Quote:
We finance a coup, hoping the new gov't will provide a better life for their people, but they just turn around and screw them worse than the last.

<b>Just what the hell are you talking about here?</b>


Quote:
People get their land taken away all the time. I don't see anyone clamouring to give Italy or Mongolia any land back. Or Germany or England. So you got your asses kicked. Grow up and deal with it. You wont be the first, and you certainly won't be the last.

<b>I assume you're referring to the south african situation. but how many countries do you know that the locals were pushed aside, putting about 85% of the people into 25% of the land or something like that.</b>



Your post just makes you sound uninformed and misinformed yet still opinionated. I suppose that would be an average american then.



<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
a b à CPUs
August 7, 2001 9:24:51 PM

Hey, your probably right.

Video killed my Radio Card!
August 7, 2001 10:36:22 PM

Pfft. I do not recognize any country named Palestine. That is Israel's land and they can place any buildings anywhere they like in their country.

On a secondary note, this isn't the place for political propaganda. We have enough religious style debates in here without actually bringing politics and religion into the discussions. I am not going to comment further on this or give further responses, as this thread is destined to become a war.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
August 8, 2001 3:08:41 AM

Thanks for your voice of reason Ray! It's nice to see some sense here.

Mark-

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
August 8, 2001 8:30:20 AM

Just another voice of opression.


<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
August 8, 2001 10:45:25 AM

Why not raystonn, the israelis took their land from them, all that had to back up their claim was an armuy and a 2000 year old book which probably is bullshit.

They put the palistinians in concentration camps and forced them out of their homes brutally, and all the while no one complained because they were the poor suffering jews of ww2(not that jews are bad, I am being honest) some people believe that they deserved their own country for what they suffered in ww2, however. There is no excuse for their actions after the fact.(however the guy 4 posts up is right that if you lose land in a war, dont whine about getting it back). But still, there is no need to shoot innocents, blow up suspected terrorist houses on little more evidence than a whim.


~Matisaro~
"Friends don't let friends buy Pentiums"
~Tbird1.3@1.55~
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 8, 2001 11:29:25 AM

Instead of blaming the local people of so called 3rd world countries, ask yourself why they have become '3rd world'!
Maybe because a few 10(0) years ago, the western world was so kind to offer tradings with these people, or would they have been so rude to overthrow the local people and dooming them to slavery?
August 8, 2001 1:01:10 PM

Before the British empire went to the indian sub-continent, it was a place of riches with good trade with the far east.

<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 8, 2001 3:54:54 PM

Its OK for WWII victims to seek compensation from German compagnies, but since ZIONISTS are truly RACISTS, it is NOT OK to point out stolen land and properties by the Europeans migrant jews (financed the the US, over $100 Billion so far) from the Palestinians.

Where is the propaganda in the original post ? its all verifiable facts by Jewish historians !!!!

Whoever does not recognize PALESTINE is either an ignorant and a pure RACIST. After MUHAMMED-ALI, ARAFAT is the most recognized human face on earth (People's mag), may he live long enough to free his people from the vicious Zionist oppressors (Wealth, Media control, US-Gov control, ...). Agaisnt ALL this, kids with stone and FAITH in their cause, are making the difference on the ground.

Home of the Brave should salute Bravery!
August 8, 2001 6:23:57 PM

I support bravery, not stupidity. The Palestinians are foolish and morally corrupt and i'll cry the day the US supports them. Arafat is a racist dictator that eventually is going to get himself killed through his doubling dealing actions and his murdering tendencies. Long live the Republic of the United States :smile: . And the Israelites can stay just where they are.

Althons and Pentiums are just melted rock. Who’s rock is better? Who cares, let’s play some games
August 8, 2001 7:27:47 PM

Dasala,

This board is NOT the place for this discussion. Take it to a political board. I could care less what you believe the facts to be.. or what they are for that matter at this point. It doesn't matter on THIS board. Take it to a web site that focuses on international politics.

I appreciate your fervor over the political situation and your wish to bring others to your beliefs, but as is obvious, THIS web site is simply NOT an appropriate place to discuss it.

Mark-

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
August 8, 2001 7:48:54 PM

How have the Palestines given you an impression of being foolish and morally corrupt?

How is Arafat a racist dictator? He's not even been given control over palestinian land.

<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
August 8, 2001 7:54:35 PM

Just because this is not a political board, it does not justify the racist remarks made here.

Israel has been a stratigic ally to the US in the past. It has been a way point for them to beat any potential "communist" threat. That is why Israel usually gets blind support and sympathy from Americans.


<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 8, 2001 7:54:59 PM

Well I would say the Israeli's have done a good propaganda exercise on you, they have managed until now to have global sympathy for 50 years. But they are showing their real colors now, greed! oh, the US is all but ready to leave them on their own.

Crank it up... way up!! I need that power.
August 8, 2001 7:57:29 PM

Especially now that they have more naive allies such as Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 8, 2001 8:01:31 PM

Hehe, oil is gold! Oil rules ... Need that political foothold to access that oil...

Crank it up... way up!! I need that power.
August 8, 2001 8:08:12 PM

yeah! soon an ounce of oil will be worth more than an ounce of gold.

<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
August 8, 2001 8:23:28 PM

I have an Israeli friend who sounds just like you. Although it's very interesting, I just can't agree with any of it. The argument is always how mean the zionists are and how the land isn't theirs and they're mean. Meanies!! Force and occupation? It was a war! Israel won. The rest was given to them by the United Nations.

The simple fact is that when the British empire pulled out the United Nations offered both the Palestinians their own land called Palestine and the Israelis land. The Palestinians decided though that they would rather declare war on Israel if it got any land and thus they screwed themselves FOREVER. The fact that the Israelis were willing to give up land as late as a few years ago and the Palestinians couldn't accept that either is truly disgusting. The simple truth is that the Palestinians are in no position to demand anything. Nothing is thiers. They should have been content with any parcel of land whether it be 2 blocks or a whole country all the way to Jerusalem.

"I'm going to go blow myself up along with a bunch of kids so that I'll have my own country" Yeah, that's an ingenious move. Bunch of pansies. I don't condone the Israelis use of firearms against rock throwers, but sometimes you have to lay down the law when a population becomes unruly. After all, this latest 700 deaths is the result of a bunch of moronic Palestinians starting an uprising over Sharon visiting a temple. How lame is that?!

I love the idea of Israel sniping off the Palestinians head guys. After all it's their country. If the Palestinians aren't willing to negotiate peacefully then they are nothing more than terrorists in an Israeli nation.

At the rate this is going Palestinians are going to be expulled completely. Let the Muslim world take care of their own people. Why doesn't Syria give up some of it's land for a Palestinian nation? Don't expect too much support from other countries though. After all, everytime the Palestinians and Muslims do that they get their butts kicked. Egypt is lucky it still has the Sinai. Lebanon should be thrilled that they are still on the map. (yes, I know they aren't muslim)

If the Palestinians deserved their own nation then they would grow up and stop being terrorists.

<font color=red>Yeah, I took a crap on your lawn. Whatcha gonna do about it?</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by dhlucke on 08/08/01 01:30 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 8, 2001 8:44:16 PM

What the hell are you talking about? Where the hell did you get your facts? the Fascist channel?

Do you know anything about the situation? Do you know about the right of return?

Stop chattin' bullshit!

<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 8, 2001 8:54:52 PM

Just to spark it up some more, lets bring religion into it...Then the big three will have been mentioned.
They say the Muslims have been there for 4000 years. They have a book to proove it or something! wow sounds all to familiar, and they found a cave with a 4255 year old picture of rock throwers too. Oh wait that was somewhere else. David in AMD's corner v's Goliath in Intels corner.

Yes you may think this post is silly and has nothing to do with nothing, just joining in..heh



Crank it up... way up!! I need that power.
August 8, 2001 9:07:04 PM

OOOh, are you gonna blow up dhluke? I agree with him 100% will you bomb me too? btw, what kind of holygrenade is that?
do you guys carry holyrifles too?

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
August 8, 2001 9:10:00 PM

???

<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
August 8, 2001 9:11:22 PM

There is no Palestine. There are refugees because there is no Palestine.

Don't get me wrong, I think it sucks that there is suffering on both sides. Believe me I wish there was a good solution, but everytime it seems that they are about to settle on negotiations it never works. The Palestinians demand Jerusalem which is just too much to ask for. Whether settlements should be halted is up for debate and I won't venture there, but the simple fact is that there is no Palestine, and at the rate the Palestinians are adopting terrorist techniques, there never will be.

<font color=red>Yeah, I took a crap on your lawn. Whatcha gonna do about it?</font color=red>
August 8, 2001 9:29:49 PM

Well, the thing is there was an agreement called "The right of return" that all the palastinian settlers will be allowed to return to their homes in jerusalem. But Israel later decided to dihonor that agreement and started further animosity towards the remaining palastinians.


<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
August 8, 2001 9:37:08 PM

You might find this article interesting. There are many on the net. All choose a side of course.

<A HREF="http://gamla.org.il/english/article/1999/feb/win2.htm" target="_new">http://gamla.org.il/english/article/1999/feb/win2.htm&l...;/A>

Besides that, why in the world would we want to put millions of Palestinians into Israel? They hate each other and it would make matters worse? Why would you want that?

Should we give up Manhatten too?

The Palestinians lost. As it stands right now they have nothing to offer the Israelis besides peace. In exchange for peace Israel was going to make some sacrifices. Look where we stand now. Great going suicide bombers. Why do the Palestinians stand for it? Why don't they get the bombers and rock throwers off the streets and sit back down at a table and ofter a fair pledge of peace that they will stand by?

<font color=red>Yeah, I took a crap on your lawn. Whatcha gonna do about it?</font color=red>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 8, 2001 9:51:22 PM

Unfortunatly its become ingrained into their culture.

Crank it up... way up!! I need that power.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 9, 2001 8:26:21 AM

This is a silly discussion, neither of us knows enough about the situation there to make solid statements.

If I'm not mistaken, this discussion started with the fact that (big) companies have factories in poor countries.
If you don't like that, then don't buy anything from those companies and be prepared to pay ten times more for all your electronics and clothes.
Or try growing your own CPU...

And anyone who thinks that AMD has more ethics than Intel, grow up, they're both multinationals.
August 9, 2001 8:40:05 AM

I found that to be an extremely biased Israeli point of view. Here is a <A HREF="http://www.lawsociety.org/Reports/reports/2001/dorm1.ht..." target="_new">Palestinian point of view.</A>

Here is a quote from that site:
Quote:
The Israeli Law of Return provides an adequate illustration of the discriminatory characteristics of the "Jewish people" concept. Under its terms, a member of "the Jewish people" who is born anywhere in the world has a right to immigrate to Israel where he automatically becomes an Israeli citizen upon arrival, and is granted full rights within the State. Under the same law, a Palestinian Moslem or Christian who was born in the country, or who is the child of a person born in the country, has no right to return. Israel's denial of the Palestinian right to return is based on patently impermissible ethnic grounds.

In my eyes that is a form of ethnic cleansing.

Here is a little fact sheet from an <A HREF="http://www.afsc.org/ispal/jerusalem/jeruhistory.htm" target="_new">American site.</A>


<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
August 9, 2001 12:04:57 PM

You say Tomato I say Tomahto.

You aren't going to persuade people from their current beliefs.

Politico-religious debate is just not appropriate on this board.

Mark-

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
!