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P4 prices dropping close to Tbird

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  • CPUs
  • Pentium
  • AMD
  • RDRAM
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August 10, 2001 6:29:43 PM

I was looking on price watch and I figured I'd show you guys
$145 AMD Athlon 1.4GHz 266 FSB
$112 - AMD Athlon 1.33GHz 266 FSB
$99 - AMD Athlon 1.2GHz 266 FSB
$90 - AMD Athlon 1.13GHz 266 FSB
$74 - AMD Athlon 1GHz 266 FSB

$307 Pentium 4 1.7GHz
$219 Pentium 4 1.5GHz
$171 Pentium 4 1.4GHz
$128 Pentium 4 1.3GHz

Oh yea and RDRAM also dropped in price too
$299 RDRAM 512MB
$88 RDRAM 256MB
$37 RDRAM 128MB
$19 RDRAM 64MB

I might start building NLE video machines on P4 (Because thats all their good for really)

More about : prices dropping close tbird

August 10, 2001 6:34:16 PM

Hmmm... the prices you show don't seem to reflect Intel prices close to AMD's. Not even same clock speed are that close really.. 1333 is more than 10% difference.

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
August 10, 2001 6:54:24 PM

A P4 1.7 competes with a tbird 1.4, so how do you figure the prices are getting close? It's more than a 100% difference.

RDRAM is still 100% more expensive too.

<font color=red>Change the sig of the week!</font color=red>
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August 10, 2001 8:27:23 PM

Didnt even list the p41.8 for 500+?

How is twice as much close?

~Matisaro~
"Friends don't let friends buy Pentiums"
~Tbird1.3@1.55~
August 10, 2001 8:44:39 PM

1.3 P4 around $130
1.3 Tbird around $115

1.4 P4 around $170
1.4 Tbird around $140

Its much closer than it has before, and considering there is not 1.5 or 1.7 GHz Tbird right now the price are dropping whether they exhist or not. All I said was the prices are dropping not that the P4 is better (only for video editing)

And I didn't list the P4 1.8 because its a rediculous price right now, and most people can't overclock their Tbirds to 1.8, but a few people have reached 1.7.
August 10, 2001 8:50:34 PM

Compairing p4 to tbird at a clock for clock basis is a great way to waste 100 bucks, the 1.3ghz p4, barely can equal the 950mhz tbird. Clock for clock(not the way to compare cpus anymore but for the sake of this statement) Clock for clock, the tbird rips off the p4's nutts and feeds them to it.

~Matisaro~
"Friends don't let friends buy Pentiums"
~Tbird1.3@1.55~
August 10, 2001 9:29:50 PM

Just following my buddy Matisaro around.

Simon "Achoo"
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 10, 2001 9:57:59 PM

I swear you guys cant read. His first post said for Video Editing, and everyone knows this is where the P4 rules. Any benchmarks that says T-Bird wins in Video Editing? Then he will be wrong.

And saying 100 bucks wasted to go Intel is like saying, oh buy a Honda S200, it is cheaper than a Mercedes C-320, and faster! Yeah, I would still be rather rolling a benzo though.

Oh yeah, Intel is cutting prices in half on the 26th, and 28th, with all the new chipsets coming so we can use DDR, watch out now!

No flaming please, I just bought a 1.0Ghz AXIAR-Y yesterday, waiting for VIA, or better yet SiS chipset to jump on P4.

deez
August 10, 2001 11:06:27 PM

I am willing to bet, clock for clock, the tbird whups p4 in videoediting, anyone feel like looking for some benchmarks.

::lazy::

PS: dont mind yangsing, hes just a very bored and lonely guy lol.

~Matisaro~
"Friends don't let friends buy Pentiums"
~Tbird1.3@1.55~
August 10, 2001 11:25:38 PM

Mati it's pretty assured Palomino will outperform P4 since Pally includes SSE code and what has been P4's advantage in this area is it's support of SSE. Once that plane is evened out Athlon will also whup P4 in that benchmark.

Mark-

When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
August 10, 2001 11:30:10 PM

"Mati it's pretty assured Palomino will outperform P4 since Pally includes SSE code and what has been P4's advantage in this area is it's support of SSE. Once that plane is evened out Athlon will also whup P4 in that benchmark."




Like I said, I think, clock for clock, it already does.

~Matisaro~
"Friends don't let friends buy Pentiums"
~Tbird1.3@1.55~
August 11, 2001 12:05:08 AM

Wait, i just wanna get something straight here... If intel is like mercedes and amd like honda, then where's luxury in intel's fancy slab of silicon? Just the knowledge that because you spent more means you're getting the better product? A yes or no will be enough.



<b>Does it work?</b>
Yes!
<b>Ok, How <i>well</i> does it work?</b>
Uhh...
August 11, 2001 12:05:59 AM

Click <A HREF="http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q2/010423/images/ima..." target="_new">here</A> for the truth. The harsh reality:

Pentium 4 1500: 19.0 fps
Athlon 1600/133 (vapochilled): 18.4 fps


-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
August 11, 2001 12:48:02 AM

Welp, the p4 has to be better in SOMETHING. heh



~Matisaro~
"Friends don't let friends buy Pentiums"
~Tbird1.3@1.55~
August 11, 2001 1:24:56 AM

Actually, Mati (Hope shortening your nick doesn't offend you)

I didn't mean clock for clock comparison. I meant say.. a 1.4 ghz Pally compared to a 1.7 or higher P4.

Mark-


When all else fails, throw your computer out the window!!!
August 11, 2001 1:40:50 AM

More numbers from <A HREF="http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q2/010423/images/ima..." target="_new">here</A>:

Pentium 4 1700: 21.0 fps
Athlon 1466/133 (overclocked): 17.5 fps
Pentium 4 Northwood 2000: Unknown
Athlon Palomino 14xx/?: Unknown

SSE (SSE1) isn't going to help the Palomino much. That application is optimized for SSE2.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =
August 11, 2001 2:15:48 AM

It sure that SSE2 is stronger that SSE.

i have look at a benchmark with

PAL 1.2*1.4
T-bird 1.4
1% faster in sysmark
But in quake more than 15 fps increase.Every thing that support SSE will be faster be 10 to 15% with PAL and 2 or 3% in apps.
August 11, 2001 2:21:00 AM

Maybe you can aswer me question what about

C1 and D0 stepping.

What are the change?
August 11, 2001 2:32:09 AM

""""""""""""""""""""""24 august """"".

Intel will release the 2 ghz and will slash a others major price drop.Remember the 1.7 and the price drop.
August 11, 2001 5:22:56 AM

If your using a P4 with Premiere 6.0 which I'm pretty sure is SSE2 optimized then clock for clock with Tbird in video editing P4 will probably win out. Now without a doubt clock for clock almost everything else Tbird will deliver a nice spanking.
Only thing I would want a P4 for is for video editing with some kind of RAID setup (2-4 hard drives for capture on a raid controller, and 1 hard drive to run the os, maybe 2nd hard drive for swap file)
Thats about it though, Video editing, DVD ripping, and maybe Quake 3. Even though I don't like quake 3 much thats all the P4 is really good for. I need more $$$ before I build a second computer though, My 1560 MHz Tbird with geforce 3 is more than fast enough for me
:D 
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 11, 2001 9:50:12 AM

Posted by tknd:
"Wait, i just wanna get something straight here... If intel is like mercedes and amd like honda, then where's luxury in intel's fancy slab of silicon? Just the knowledge that because you spent more means you're getting the better product? A yes or no will be enough."

Come on, do I have to answer this? Ok. What has a better overall chance of working right out of the bat? The Intel chips do, and don't try to argue this one, you will lose.

No conteding with VIA southbridge, can't use that Sound Blaster Live, etc.

Also, the heat, OMFG the heat from these babies. People asking about what to replace their AMD stock HSF with, even though they are not overclocking? Don't tell me shi++y case, because there are people with P4's with a shitty case. AMD 760 usually has the VIA southbridge too right? Why do people continue to use anything with VIA/AMD if they know it has problems? I myself is goint to wait for SiS 735 boards.

One other thing is CRACKED CORES. That sucks, it really does, to buy a spanking new processor, and crack the core just putting a freaking heatsink on, even the stock one?

Don't get me wrong, in my first post I mentioned I just got an AMD, but you asked how is one a Mercedes and the other a Honda.

Anything else I missed? Maybe Fugger or AMDMELTDOWN can help me out? j/k :p 

deez
August 11, 2001 11:52:58 AM

That's bullshit actually. Would you like to try using your video card 'straight off the bat' as well? Cannot install drivers? Oh, I'm so sorry if your are too dumb or too lazy to install a driver (or SP2 for 2000) to get around the 686B issue. The latest 4in1s have been out for ages, as has sp2 for 2000 as well, both of which have fixed the issue.

If people cannot install heatsinks or build a PC properly, maybe they shouldn't? Why not spend the extra bucks for peace of mind and get a reputable shop to do it for them? That way you have a warranty and their experience.

If anyone is a 1/2 way competent PC fiddler or diy type they'll have no problems. You just need to do your research, same as everything else.

Oh yes - and if you were 1/2 way intelligent you'd know what the 686B issue is actually about. It is about data corruption between primary and secondary IDE channels and has the chance to be made worse by the presence of a SB Live! card. The SB Live! works straight off no worries.

-* This Space For Rent *-
email for application details<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by peteb on 08/11/01 09:55 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 11, 2001 3:53:21 PM

Peteb is right, 99.999% of athlon problems are caused by user error.

~Matisaro~
"Friends don't let friends buy Pentiums"
~Tbird1.3@1.55~
August 11, 2001 5:33:47 PM

Peteb is right, 99.999% of athlon problems are caused by user error.

Driver driver and VIA 4in1
Get real your chipset suck my old ZX is still better.
August 11, 2001 5:44:22 PM

no I'm right! 99.999% of firestone blowouts occurred because of user error!

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
August 11, 2001 5:45:40 PM

translation:

Get real! your chipset sucks, my old Zx is still better. LOL!

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
August 11, 2001 6:01:09 PM

Juin, your english is as crappy as your computer system.

amdmeltdown, equating a firestone tire issue, with a crushed cpu core due to improper heatsink instalation(or a crap heatsink) only demonstrates your ignorance.

~Matisaro~
"Friends don't let friends buy Pentiums"
~Tbird1.3@1.55~
August 11, 2001 6:05:30 PM

"... One other thing is CRACKED CORES. That sucks, it really does, to buy a spanking new processor, and crack the core just putting a freaking heatsink on, even the stock one? ..."

Have never installed a HSF on an Athlon yet, but I've told my friend, who bought a new Athlon 1.2GHz with stock HSF, how to use a screw driver to put the clip on (I believe most clips have a slot to insert the screw driver to use as a lever to gently apply force). Less chance of cracking the core on an edge or corner using this technique rather than the apply pressure with finger technique to get the clip to lock on.

The desktop Athlon 4's will be coming in the new organic packaging. Maybe the incidence of core breakage will go down. The new organic packaging will probably flex more in response to uneven pressures while the user is installing the HSF (as opposed to a ceramic packaging). Just a guess.

I think some users worry to much about processor temperature and they go in screw around and end up breaking things.

"... No conteding with VIA southbridge, can't use that Sound Blaster Live, etc. ..."

I also don't want anything to do with VIA.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by MadCat on 08/13/01 04:09 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 11, 2001 7:58:28 PM

Nah, unlike installing an HSF, it's actually hard to screw up a tire change. But I bet you could screw it up... :lol: 

Kelledin

"/join #hackerz. See the Web. DoS interesting people."
August 11, 2001 9:18:02 PM

LOL, well I may build a P4 afterall if the prices keep going down. Now does anyone know when the SIS 645 chipset will be out for the P4? Also mobo's supporting such? Frankly I am just be to bored to build another T-Bird system, I still may if the P4 overall cost is to much. I already got a stick of Crucial 256mb DDR2100 ram and a Thermaltake Volcano 6 on its way. Any help would be appreciated. Not interested in a P4 RDram setup.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 08/11/01 05:56 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 11, 2001 10:40:34 PM

Do you know if a 1.3gh P4 at 100mhz FSB will overclock to 133mhz (1.73ghz)? Since the SIS 645 has a 133mhz FSB and a 166mhz FSB. Will the P4 overclock that much?
August 12, 2001 1:09:37 AM

Quote:
No conteding with VIA southbridge, can't use that Sound Blaster Live, etc.

Why not? I've been using SB Live with my Asus A7V and A7V133 (later) without problem!

:smile: Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.
August 12, 2001 1:11:13 AM

Quote:
Driver driver and VIA 4in1
Get real your chipset suck my old ZX is still better.

Yeah, right!

:smile: Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.
August 12, 2001 1:25:35 AM

i wouldn't wait for a via chipset
August 12, 2001 2:02:30 AM

LOL me too, it works perfectly fine. Sounds like some <b>FFF</b>s!!!!!!!!

--
It's Princess Leia, the yodel of my life. Give me my sweater back or I'll play the guitar.
August 13, 2001 2:13:44 AM

your sigs get more and more wierd :smile:

-* This Space For Rent *-
email for application details
August 13, 2001 8:45:58 AM

even clock for clock the difference is huge... performance wise... lets not go there...

if in doubt blame microsoft...
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 13, 2001 10:41:55 AM

<i>That's bullshit actually. Would you like to try using your video card 'straight off the bat' as well? Cannot install drivers? Oh, I'm so sorry if your are too dumb or too lazy to install a driver (or SP2 for 2000) to get around the 686B issue. The latest 4in1s have been out for ages, as has sp2 for 2000 as well, both of which have fixed the issue.</i>
Who said I had this problem?

<i>If people cannot install heatsinks or build a PC properly, maybe they shouldn't? Why not spend the extra bucks for peace of mind and get a reputable shop to do it for them? That way you have a warranty and their experience. If anyone is a 1/2 way competent PC fiddler or diy type they'll have no problems. You just need to do your research, same as everything else.</i>
So are you saying anyone here who has cracked a core, shouldn't be doing this? I won't even touch this.

<i>Oh yes - and <b>if you were 1/2 way intelligent</b> you'd know what the 686B issue is actually about.</i>
Ah yes, name calling, what one does when one does not have anything good to say!

It is about data corruption between primary and secondary IDE channels and has the chance to be made worse by the presence of a SB Live! card.</i>
Uhhh, uhhh, uhhhhh, squirt, squirt, squirt, ooops, hit anyone in the eye? (I know, I know, childish, but I couldn't resist!)

Oh peteb, if you didn't include the disparaging remarks, we might have a good debate, but name calling? Me half intelligent? Don't say you put in "if you are" or "if people cannot" "if anyone is 1/2 way competent" so it doesn't mean anything. Hell yeah it means something.

I consider myself to be quite intelligent, as I am sure many on this forum are. Ok, the SBlive issue has been resolved, I concede that, take that off my list. How come you didn't address the other items on my list? If you were half intelligent (notice the 'if you' part), you would realize that my argument doesn't rest with the SBlive issue, but will ALL THE ELEMENTS. You got me with one of the elements, but that is it.

Since you are so smart, and I am so dumb, why don't you argue with me on the other points?
-Cracked cores (you know it happens)
-Heat (it can be taken care of, but the problem is it has to be taken care of)
-Anything having to do with VIA (I think there is a consensus on this one)

And please don't resort to childish measures like trying, and I mean TRYING, to insult my intelligence. I will put my educational credentials up against yours, anyday.

And if you wanna start dissin or clownin, don't even get me started ...

deez
August 13, 2001 11:13:40 AM

"Since you are so smart, and I am so dumb, why don't you argue with me on the other points?
-Cracked cores (you know it happens)
-Heat (it can be taken care of, but the problem is it has to be taken care of)
-Anything having to do with VIA (I think there is a consensus on this one)"

Cracked cores, my wifes uncle installed a p3 933mhz cpu for his father(then he bought an amd for their other computer after my preaching heh) anyways, when he was installimng the hsf on the p3 he cracked the core and had to return it, while this problem is prevalent on amd chips, it is not a design flaw. Sometimes cores crack, especially when installing heatsinks poorly, and especially with poorly designed heatsinks. Holding amd at fault for this would be like holding ford at fault when someone wrecks their car because they arent driving safely.

heat~ all fast cpus give off heat, if you do not properly cool your p4/p3 it will shut down. Now while just shutting down, glitching,locking up etc is deffinatly not as bad as the core burning out, it still is a problem which requires proper cooling, which is not a major issue. P4's put out nearly as much heat as tbirds. A core which runs for 2 mins and shuts off is just as useless as one which is burnt out. This can be considered a small design flaw on amds part, but one they have rectified in their latest generation of processor.

VIA, blaming amd for via makes no sense, and via does not UNIVERSALLY, have problems, my kt7a raid runs flawlessly, with nary a via induced issue in sight, intel chipsets have flaws as well, no one is immune from them.
Are amd chipsets more prone to issues than intel chipsets.....possibly, but the possibility is remote, and anyone who properly installs the updates and drivers for their products rarely come in contact with these super evil via issues.

~Matisaro~
"Friends don't let friends buy Pentiums"
~Tbird1.3@1.55~
August 13, 2001 12:42:01 PM

Okay - fair dues - I shouldn't jump in straight with the personal sh|t and I apologise for that. It's just that I see so many people coming out with this AMD is so weak, VIA is the great green monster stuff that it really does get my goat sometimes.

My perspective. Computer hardware is at the best of times pretty sensitive stuff. It is also pretty expensive. Sure in principal it is a big lego or constructor kit, however the bits cost more and are not designed to be robust around 5 year olds.

My point is that it is perfectly possible to build, safely, a PC from either AMD or Intel parts. Sure - I'll concede that Intel parts are stronger (or more physically durable if you like) however they are not indestructible.

If you'd like my 0.02c (probably not after I insulted you - sorry about that - did I mention that already?) people get so wound up with the AMD 'overclocking' experience and get so worried about core temperatures, heat sink mounting etc. that they inevitably eventually have an accident.

Now I am basically saying that Intel cores are stronger than AMD. I am not saying that AMD are too fragile. Sure it would be nice to know I could drop a swifty 462 from a great height onto the cpu without breaking it, but I cannot and I treat it accordingly. I remember the first time I clamped a heat sink over an Intel chip - I was really worried. No problems. No worries with AMD yet - either.

Basically on the 'weak core front' what I am saying is this: If people do not know what they are doing and are not experienced, expect expensive learning curves. You could just as easily zap your mobo/memory/whatever with static being inexperienced. Now I'd like the peace of mind to know that the AMD is stronger than it is and for AMD to do something about it, but it really doesn't worry me that much. Maybe if people are that inexperienced or green they should buy a $26 Duron 650 to practice with.

Now I'd also say that the vast number of useless heat sinks out there are partly to blame too. Some are so ineffectual that people constantly have them on and off until the inevitable trying to get their cpu down another 2 degrees or something. The rest (can anyone say Orb?) just crushed edges and cores through - in my opinion - poor design and finish.

Now is AMD to blame, or is the person that bought it? Ever wonder people manage to limp into this forum just <i>after</i> they crushed their cpu with a heat sink 50 people would have told them was useless if they had only asked in here <i>first</i>? Exactly - if people went around, learned a bit in the forums and then made their purchase, rather than assuming that a PC is the simplest thing in the world to build and therefore they should easily manage with no experience, no research and $1000 of components some guy in a store recommended to them because he needed to hit his quota that month? You know what - if people read around, considered the views here - decided they were not so experienced and bought an Intel system to cut their teeth on - power to them. At least they came to a measured decision based on facts, rather than buying a poor sales pitch.

Again, the same argument above pretty much runs to selecting a good HS to keep the cpu appropriately cool. The problem with folks is this - they step into the overclocking section and read tales of people with peltiers, watercoolers, 60cfm Deltas on Swiftech 462s and get ideas that their cpu needs to be 35 degrees at full tilt. Well - it doesn't. People are so paranoid now about temps and trying to squeeze the last few mhz out of their cpu they are spending more than a cpu upgrade on the cooling setup! People, get real. If your cpu is 60 degrees at full pelt - great - that's fine. If it is 50, even better. If your room is already 35 degrees, don't look surprised when your heat sink cannot get your cpu below 50...

So lastly we come on to Via. The chipset manufacturer that everyone loves to hate. Well, I'll confess I've read the horror stories and I've heard the woes - and I won't ignore them. When the Sis735 or nForce is available, I'll probably buy whichever reviews best and use it happily. Until such time I have an Intel and an AMD both on via and I have no issues at all. Sure you need drivers, but then, like I said so does a video card. Sure, if you buy them straight on release expect problems - Via, like Microsoft are a company that like <i>us</i> to beta test for them.

I bought the A7V133 soon after release and no issues with it, with data corruption or anything - been very solid. My Via Intel board (CUV4X) is not a world record beating board, but it runs my 700@1036 for weeks on end without missing a beat. I have a veritable array of USB devices (mostly with odd drivers etc.) and all have worked fine, except the 1 time I tried a USB hub - which failed dismally.

Anyway in summation - can I get college credit for any of this? - I haven't run over Via issues yet that have discouraged me fully from buying Via again. I knew the issues and warnings when I bought the A7V133 and I bought it still and did not regret it. I have seen many others who have done the same and not had cause for complaint - and I have seen many who did. Then again this is a hardware BBS - I'd expect to get a higher than normal concentration of people with system issues! :smile:

Anyway - I'd love to stop and chew the fat some more, but I have to get on. Oh - and as for comparing educational credentials, no thanks. I measure people by how they stack up in the real world and by what they achieve. I know some really smart guys with multiple doctorates that are hard pressed to know if it is Monday or Marble Arch and would be seriously challenged to provide anything but a hypothesis on brownian motion if you gave them a mug of hot water and a tea bag.

The world needs academics and theorists, don't get me wrong, it is just that the world doesn't need them out in the world for the most part - they should stay home where it is nice and cosy and have a good supply of chocolate biscuits.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I measure people more by what they do than what they know - a guy can be really smart, but be hopeless, or a guy can be average, but really clued in. There is no real 1 type though I guess.


-* This Space For Rent *-
email for application details
August 13, 2001 1:05:23 PM

Well, you can complain all you like about Via/AMD problems, and I might be open to hear some of the "big" problems that you prefer to think exist with them. However, out of the 8 AMD-Based systems that I have built recently, 7 of which using a completely different assortment of parts, I have yet to encounter such problems. I know that some problems exist, but not nearly in the magnitude that you portray. Beyond that, if you know what you are doing when you built an AMD-based System (as you should when building *Any* system), then you should have no problems. Cracking your core due to improperly placing the heatsink is tantamount to ruining an AGP Video board by trying to Jam it into a PCI slot... You simply have to know what you are doing. So here's the warning you ought to be giving people: "Don't attempt to build an AMD-based System if you haven't done your Homework!!!" Same for intel systems.
The amount of heat a CPU generates is a characteristic of that CPU. So long as the Athlon can handle the heat that it generates with proper cooling, Who cares? The Transmeta chip runs cool enough that it doesn't even require a Fan!!! Does that mean that both Intel Chips AND AMD chips are junk because they get hotter than the Transmeta Chip? What? The Transmeta Chip is Slower? Well so is the P4 in comparison with the Athlon. Same situation, but I hear no complaints there.
Heat and cracked cores are NOT reason to avoid AMD CPUs. They are reason to know what you are doing when you build an AMD-based system, and the same applies to Intel systems.
An overpriced, underperforming CPU IS reason to choose the competition.

--Fltsimbuff
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 14, 2001 12:46:50 AM

Hold up, hold up, hold the f up. I never said these were BIG, GIGANTIC HUMONGOUS problems. As you can see, my original analogy was a Honda S2000 and a Mercedes. Now, if I had said that that AMD was a pinto, then that is different. I never said (or if I did, my bad) that these problems were so prevalent you should not get an AMD system. I just said that these problems occure more often than with Intel systems, and I know you have to admit at least that much.

I mean of course you can find at least one person who cracked an Intel Core, I can find you at least one person whose Mercedes was a lemon. But how many AMD users have cracked a core? Lets take a vote in here, admit it, how many people you know have cracked one, or have you cracked one? It just happens more, yes it is the end user's fault. Of course it is, I'm not dumb. But wouldn't you say that the AMD is more PRONE to being cracked than a P4 chip? "Oh, but that because the P4 has a heatsink spreader! That is why!" Exactly my point.

Fltsimbuff said "but not nearly in the magnitude that you portray"
I never did portray, again Honda S2000, a very dependable car!
Again, somebody assuming I am basing my argument on one element, "The Transmeta chip runs cool enough that it doesn't even require a Fan!!! Does that mean that both Intel Chips AND AMD chips are junk because they get hotter than the Transmeta Chip?"
No, I never said AMD was junk because it was hotter than Intel. I am concerned with the cooling AMD provides. If they provided a good enough HSF with their chips where people would not have to post in a forum, where to get a good HSF even though THEY ARE NOT overclocking, regardless of case and ambient temp, then that will be taken off the list. When was the last time you saw somebody asking for a HSF because their Intel chip (any of them) was hot at stock speeds?

"Heat and cracked cores are NOT reason to avoid AMD CPUs. They are reason to know what you are doing when you build an AMD-based system, and the same applies to Intel systems."
You know what? You just reiterated my point. Bet you didn't know it did you? If you read my post, I said:
"What has a better overall chance of working right out of the bat?"

Never did I say what has a better chance of working at all! You guys, reread my posts. You guys are putting words in my mouth.

I DO NOT HATE AMD. I DO NOT HATE AMD. I mentioned this before, I have a 1.0Ghz AXIAR Y.

I will restate my point again, right here, right now. Do not read any more into it than what I say right now:

Intel is good, AMD is good. Intel is a little more refined. They are bloated, yes, expensive, yes, slowing down, yes. But they are more refined. Maybe only a little, but they are.

Oh yeah, Fltsimbuff, since you say people who know what they are doing will have no problem then maybe I can make this argument:
Since so many more people crack their cores with AMD, then either more AMD users don't know what they are doing, or the AMD chips are more prone to cracking. Either way, you lose. Haven't a lot of professional reviewers cracked their core as well? They must not know what they are doing ...
August 14, 2001 1:55:29 AM

"But how many AMD users have cracked a core? Lets take a vote in here, admit it, how many people you know have cracked one, or have you cracked one?"
Nope... Never had... I knew a guy who did not know what he was doing (He only went Intel) and he tried to install a T-bird 900MHz chip without ever having touched one before... He cracked it. It pays to know to be careful *Before* you start...
"No, I never said AMD was junk because it was hotter than Intel. I am concerned with the cooling AMD provides. "
I was only addressing that item on your list. Heat is not a problem until it causes problems.
"When was the last time you saw somebody asking for a HSF because their Intel chip (any of them) was hot at stock speeds?"
Really? I've yet to see someone's T-bird be unstable with the Stock HSF when they didn't overclock... If you run it at spec clock speeds, and use the Stock HSF, there ought to be no problem. (people though seem to like to keep their CPU Temp Way under spec though).
"You know what? You just reiterated my point. Bet you didn't know it did you? If you read my post, I said:
"What has a better overall chance of working right out of the bat?""
Actually, that doesn't sound a whole lot like what I said...You have the same chance of both working right off the bat when you finish building them, if you know what you are doing. Sounds to me like you are saying Building of an Intel system is more idiot-proof? and therefore works better off the bat when someone who doesn't know what they are doing builds it, than if the same person built an AMD-based system? I don't see the correlation there...
"I DO NOT HATE AMD. I DO NOT HATE AMD. I mentioned this before, I have a 1.0Ghz AXIAR Y."
I never said you did pal... Calm down.
"Since so many more people crack their cores with AMD, then either more AMD users don't know what they are doing, or the AMD chips are more prone to cracking. Either way, you lose. Haven't a lot of professional reviewers cracked their core as well? They must not know what they are doing ..."
Yep... They didn't think until it was too late... but that's how you learn not to do it again... And it serves as an example to all who read their reviews, and comments on how to properly install a HSF on an Athlon. Reviewers are not perfect, and they, like us, learn from their mistakes, and the mistakes of others revealed. Unless a core is just totally defective (or the HSF), or the clip is bent or something... you should never crack it if you know how to install it properly. Period.

The whole point of my post was to counter a few of the items on your "list". I was answering those, so don't get all bent out of shape about it. Even if you disagree with what I say, you could at least do it in a more Docile manner... I mean, that was no Fugger post... but I could sense a certain amount of Hostility...

--Fltsimbuff
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 14, 2001 5:04:09 AM

No hostility bro, just good debate. That is my style.

Anyway, correct me if I am wrong, but you say "You have the same chance of both working right off the bat when you finish building them, if you know what you are doing."

That is correct, very true. But what about people who don't know what they are doing? Or kinda do, but they are not an expert? They have a better chance with an Intel am I correct? I must be, because every response to my argument that it is harder to get AMD's to work right off the bat, has started off with or ended with or contained the words "if you know what you are doing" " if you are half smart, and know what you are doing." This implies that if you don't know what you are doing, you will get it wrong, correct?

And then somebody else said (not you) that if you don't know what you are doing, then you shouldn't do it. Well there ain't no fun in doing only things you know how to do. Whoever said that (I can't see right now), do you follow your own advice. IF you never did something you didn't know how to do then are you still wearing diapers, crawling around because you didn't know how to walk so there was no point in you trying.

Look, I didn't mean any hostility, I just like debating, arguing, etc. THis is what fosters knowledge, etc... I just wanna ask you or anyone else one question, is setting up an Intel or an AMD exactly, and I mean EXACLTY the same, is it just as easy to pull it off? And I don't mean for you guys, cuzz obviously you guys have the expertise. I just mean, is the minimum level of knowledge to set up an Intel at the exact same level as the minimum level of knowledge needed to set up an AMD?

I feel that it isn't. You know why? I have set up my Intel, not knowing a goddamn thing, and it works! I am about to try and set up an AMD, just doing my requisite research first. Research that wasn't needed with the Intel. Research that uncovered the problem with the VIA 4-1 drivers, the SBLive, the need to make sure I get good cooling (I am!), etc. Once set up, I feel the AMD will be just as stable as my Intel, no doubt about it. IT just takes a little more time and research to get it that way, and that is the point I am trying to get across.

deez
August 14, 2001 5:19:16 AM

Quote:
And then somebody else said (not you) that if you don't know what you are doing, then you shouldn't do it. Well there ain't no fun in doing only things you know how to do. Whoever said that (I can't see right now), do you follow your own advice. IF you never did something you didn't know how to do then are you still wearing diapers, crawling around because you didn't know how to walk so there was no point in you trying.


That may have been me - okay, how about this - rather than if you don't know, don't do it, how about, if you don't know and <i>you cannot afford to break it</i> don't do it.

Sure, I had never built a PC until the first time I tried (kinda makes sense, right?) but I could afford to replace the bits I broke - that's the risk I took in deciding not to buy a pre-made system. A wise person takes risk based on sound judgment and an ability to cope with any likely outcome.

-* This Space For Rent *-
email for application details
August 14, 2001 8:58:57 AM

Quote:
That may have been me - okay, how about this - rather than if you don't know, don't do it, how about, if you don't know and you cannot afford to break it don't do it.

Sure, I had never built a PC until the first time I tried (kinda makes sense, right?) but I could afford to replace the bits I broke - that's the risk I took in deciding not to buy a pre-made system. A wise person takes risk based on sound judgment and an ability to cope with any likely outcome.

Totally agreed!

:smile: Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.
August 14, 2001 9:13:07 AM

Couldnt the argument be made that most pentium systems come from oems pre assempled, and most amd systems are hand built due to their lack of oem support, therefore giving the false impression their cores are more prone to breakage?

~Matisaro~
"Friends don't let friends buy Pentiums"
~Tbird1.3@1.55~
August 14, 2001 9:14:03 AM

oh - and I didn't break anything bye the way!

-* This Space For Rent *-
email for application details
August 14, 2001 9:19:54 AM

Me too!

:smile: Good or Bad have no meaning at all, depends on what your point of view is.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 14, 2001 10:17:00 AM

Forget the OEM market (OEM I mean Deli, Comcraq, Gateclosed, etc.).

I am talking computers built by parts from OEM shops (like the one around the corner).

You guys still have not answered my question, mainly:
is setting up an Intel or an AMD exactly, and I mean EXACLTY the same, is it just as easy to pull it off? And I don't mean for you guys, cuzz obviously you guys have the expertise. I just mean, is the minimum level of knowledge to set up an Intel at the exact same level as the minimum level of knowledge needed to set up an AMD?

Forget about false impressions, OEM, blah, whatever, just breaking it down. Lets make a hypo. Lets take a reasonable person (sorry, something from law school), and assume he has no knowledge about computers whatsoever, whatsoever, doesn't even know what a computer is. Obviously he cannot put together an Intel or AMD machine. Pretend this guy has 0 computer IQ.

Then lets start bumping up this guys IQ, one by one. Ok, now he knows what a computer is, but still cannot put one together.

In this hypo, do you think this "reasonable person" can start building both types of machine at the same point on the computer IQ scale, or the Intel before AMD, or the AMD before the Intel? (Hey, I kinda like this hypo:) 

And I know there are people whose first machine was an AMD, that doesn't mean they cannot make an Intel as well. But there are people who know how to put Intel together, no problem, but cannot do AMD.

It is this extra knowledge/research/skills required to make an AMD that I am referring, a.k.a. the prerequisite. ANd you guys know it is there, and it is funny that I have asked this over and over, yet none of you guys will come out, and explicitly say that it is there! Kinda funny huh?

Read the whole thread over, or just look over it, and all I ask is one of you pro-AMD guys, to admit there is a prereq to building an AMD, over and beyond what is required to build an Intel. Come on, you guys have to admit it, you know it is true. (don't forget my hypo, very proud of it I am, j/k)

deez

PS, I am not even trying to pretend that I know as much about computers as you guys, no way. That is why I am here, to ask you guys questions about my AMD adventure. You guys know a lot more than me (I know nothing actually). My arguments are based on my experiences with Intel, observations of hundreds, even thousands of threads, and experiences of my friends, who have f++ked with AMD before (they got it to work, after a little RESEARCH!).<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by deeznuts on 08/14/01 06:21 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
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