PCs out of Balance - Need some Help

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Some background:
The campaign I play in has two DMs, me and another, who alternate
running adventures. While DMing, our personal PCs are always 'doing
research' in the background... i.e. not being played. The DM-PCs aren't
our current problem, though.

The Short Version:
The Player of our 5th Level Human Fighter, using a longsword and shield
in good armor seems hopelessly inadequate when compared to our 5th level
Half-Orc barbarian, using a Great Sword and middling armor. I need
ideas that will move the spotlight off the barbarian whenever combat
happens and onto the fighter for a while, so he has a chance to shine.
Otherwise, I fear the player will get discouraged and quit, which is no
fun for anyone.

The Long Version:
Our characters are currently in the 4-5 level range. One of the
fulltime players has a Half-Orc Barbarian that just plain lays down the
whoop-ass. The other full-time players are playing a human ranger,
specializing in ranged attacks of all sorts, and a human fighter,
specializing in melee combat.

The problem is that the damn barbarian, when you take into account his
high strength, rage, his BAB, and his +2 greatsword, he is regularly
dishing out over 20 points of damage a round, while everyone else is
averaging 5 or so.

Now, in my estimation, part of this problem is that none of the other
characters are so 'laser targeted' in the scope of their abilities, but,
even so, shouldn't it have taken more levels than 5 for the barbarian to
outstrip everyone else in pure combat monsteryness?

I am tempted to consider this a munchkin problem, but then again, the
only thing the player has done is go for the Great Sword, and, really,
wouldn't any self-respecting barbarian? Maybe a Great Axe.

I've tried to deisgn scenarios to highlight the Ranger's outdoor skills,
and that helps, but for the life of me, I can't imagine how to make the
Human Fighter feel useful, when standing anywhere near the Barbarian.

They are both designed to get in there and 'mix it up', but the
Barbarian has Rage, Higher hit points, etc.

Any ideas on how I can design a scenario or two to move the spotlight
off the barb onto the fighter?

Thanks
DWS

 

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David Serhienko wrote:

[snip]

> I've tried to deisgn scenarios to highlight the Ranger's outdoor
skills,
> and that helps, but for the life of me, I can't imagine how to make
the
> Human Fighter feel useful, when standing anywhere near the Barbarian.
>
> They are both designed to get in there and 'mix it up', but the
> Barbarian has Rage, Higher hit points, etc.
>
> Any ideas on how I can design a scenario or two to move the spotlight

> off the barb onto the fighter?

There's only so much you can do about this as the DM, as it comes down
to what players choose for their characters, and how well they use what
they chose. If the player isn't happy with playing a plain fighter,
then he needs to look at other classes or options he could take on.
Maybe he could go fighter/rogue and become a sneak attack specialist,
for example, and take advantage of the barbarian for flanking. Adding
a spellcasting class could also augment his fighting ability with the
right spells. What kind of feat choices did he make, and are they doing
anything for him?

But that isn't what you asked, so: If you want to spotlight the
fighter, you might have to focus the spotlight yourself. Come up with a
plotline that is centered around the fighter, but doesn't leave out the
rest of the group. Maybe the fighter inherits an estate, but has to
take steps to keep it. Maybe he gets contacted by an old friend (maybe
the fighter's former CO from his military days) to serve a cause or
deal with an enemy.

You could also pull some cheap shots, like seperating the party during
combats so the fighter has to take on some opponents by himself, or at
least without the barbarian around to upstage him. Perhaps a ship the
PCs are on gets attacked by sahuagin during a storm; some PCs get
washed overboard and have to fight the fish-men underwater, and the
rest have to deal with the monsters still on board.

Underground, you can use monsters like Umber Hulks to cause cave-ins to
seperate the party into smaller groups, and the monsters' Confusion
ability to seperate them further.

Assassins with access to Arcane Lock and Darkness spells (for example)
can make life interesting for a party staying in several rooms at an
inn.

Anyway, I think it's mostly the player's job to make his character
useful and fun to play, so before you go about designing scenarios
around this fighter, sit down with the player and figure out where he
wants to go from here, and how he wants to get there.

--
Jay Knioum
The Mad Afro

 

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David Serhienko wrote:


> Some pre-game back story stuff that might spark some ideas: One
thing
> that I did NOT mention, because I didn't think of it then, is that
the
> Ranger and Fighter met while in training to become Paladins as
> teenagers. The Fighter 'washed out' and the Ranger decided that he
> didn't want to live within the Code of Conduct. Thus, the Fighter is

> still Lawful Good, but not a Paladin, and the Ranger is Chaotic
Good...

Do you have/use the Book of Exalted Deeds? Perhaps the Forces of Good
have something in mind for this fighter above and beyond a Paladin's
role. It'll take some careful handling on your end, but you might
consider giving the fighter access to some of the Exalted feats and
PrCs if the situation warrants it.

--
Jay Knioum
The Mad Afro

 

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Several people have asked what Feats the Ranger and Fighter I mentioned
have taken. I don't precisely know what they all are, actually, as I
don't keep copies of the sheets.

I know the Fighter has Power Attack, and I know the Ranger has Precise
Shot, but anything else I said would be a total guess at this point.

I am going to wait to respond to the most recent posts until I have that
information (just emailed the player asking him).

I do see several suggestions already that sound really useful, and I'll
be taking adavantage of them.

Some pre-game back story stuff that might spark some ideas: One thing
that I did NOT mention, because I didn't think of it then, is that the
Ranger and Fighter met while in training to become Paladins as
teenagers. The Fighter 'washed out' and the Ranger decided that he
didn't want to live within the Code of Conduct. Thus, the Fighter is
still Lawful Good, but not a Paladin, and the Ranger is Chaotic Good...

Might be something there to work with.

Thanks for the replies so far. Hopefully, the Feat lists I get back
will be helpful.
DWS

 

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David Serhienko wrote:

> Some background:
> The campaign I play in has two DMs, me and another, who alternate
> running adventures. While DMing, our personal PCs are always 'doing
> research' in the background... i.e. not being played. The DM-PCs aren't
> our current problem, though.
>
> The Short Version:
> The Player of our 5th Level Human Fighter, using a longsword and shield
> in good armor seems hopelessly inadequate when compared to our 5th level
> Half-Orc barbarian, using a Great Sword and middling armor. I need
> ideas that will move the spotlight off the barbarian whenever combat
> happens and onto the fighter for a while, so he has a chance to shine.
> Otherwise, I fear the player will get discouraged and quit, which is no
> fun for anyone.
>
> The Long Version:
> Our characters are currently in the 4-5 level range. One of the
> fulltime players has a Half-Orc Barbarian that just plain lays down the
> whoop-ass. The other full-time players are playing a human ranger,
> specializing in ranged attacks of all sorts, and a human fighter,
> specializing in melee combat.
>
> The problem is that the damn barbarian, when you take into account his
> high strength, rage, his BAB, and his +2 greatsword, he is regularly
> dishing out over 20 points of damage a round, while everyone else is
> averaging 5 or so.
>
> Now, in my estimation, part of this problem is that none of the other
> characters are so 'laser targeted' in the scope of their abilities, but,
> even so, shouldn't it have taken more levels than 5 for the barbarian to
> outstrip everyone else in pure combat monsteryness?
>
> I am tempted to consider this a munchkin problem, but then again, the
> only thing the player has done is go for the Great Sword, and, really,
> wouldn't any self-respecting barbarian? Maybe a Great Axe.
>
> I've tried to deisgn scenarios to highlight the Ranger's outdoor skills,
> and that helps, but for the life of me, I can't imagine how to make the
> Human Fighter feel useful, when standing anywhere near the Barbarian.
>
> They are both designed to get in there and 'mix it up', but the
> Barbarian has Rage, Higher hit points, etc.
>
> Any ideas on how I can design a scenario or two to move the spotlight
> off the barb onto the fighter?
>
> Thanks
> DWS

Ah, the figher problem compounded by an optimization problem. This is a
good puzzle. The figher is already outlcassed in two niches.

Let me brainstorm. This stuff is iffy.
- There's a final battle in the shrine of the Goddess of Serenity.
Barbarian can't rage.
- Get the fighter a flaming sword. Then trolls.
- Have all NPC's look to the fighter as the respectable one, and listen
to him. He becomes your face man.
- Multiple waves of opponents.
- Hammer and anvil. Attacks from one direction, followed by attacks from
another. With the party broken apart, each must stand.
- An illusionist opponent. Constant illusion based fights. The barbarian
doesn't know when to rage, or rages too often.
- Have them travel. Have a once-per-day encounter that leads into a
longish series of easy fights. You want to draw out the barbarian until
he has only one rage left, but he's not to the final fight yet.

The difference between the two will get worse. The fighter has a hard
time NOT being second class to the barbarian. Let the figher meet a
weapons master who can change his feats around a bit, to things like
combat expertise and tripping.

CH

 

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David Serhienko wrote:
>
> The Player of our 5th Level Human Fighter, using a longsword and shield
> in good armor seems hopelessly inadequate when compared to our 5th level
> Half-Orc barbarian, using a Great Sword and middling armor. I need
> ideas that will move the spotlight off the barbarian whenever combat
> happens and onto the fighter for a while, so he has a chance to shine.
> Otherwise, I fear the player will get discouraged and quit, which is no
> fun for anyone.

Does the party use teamwork and group tactics much? If you can give the
fighter a way to be useful outside of dealing as much damage as
possible, it could solve your problem.

Design encounters that require every character to bring at least one of
his or her unique resources to bear. Force them to work together in
order to survive. With luck and patience, combat becomes a team effort-
everyone helping each other, playing to individual strengths, and
shoring up individual weaknesses rather than front-liners competing to
deal damage.

Encourage the fighter to take tactical feats like Improved Trip. The
fighter can use these to harass the foe while the barbarian deals lays
down the damage. This may not be what the fighter is looking for. I
see from your other post that the player spent a feat on power attack.
That implies the fighter was hoping to be a damage-dealing fighter
rather than a tactical one. Talk to the player. If the player is open
to shifting focus, maybe give the fighter a chance to exchange some of
those non-tactical feats for tactical ones.

Just remember, the fighter's combat strength is versatility, not raw
damage capability. Remind the player of that, too, and maybe a solution
will come up.

- Tialan

 

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"David Serhienko" <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote in message
news:114jg3trvk9s68b@corp.supernews.com...
> Now, in my estimation, part of this problem is that none of the other
> characters are so 'laser targeted' in the scope of their abilities, but,
> even so, shouldn't it have taken more levels than 5 for the barbarian to
> outstrip everyone else in pure combat monsteryness?
>
> I am tempted to consider this a munchkin problem, but then again, the
> only thing the player has done is go for the Great Sword, and, really,
> wouldn't any self-respecting barbarian? Maybe a Great Axe.

It sure sounds like pure & distilled power gaming to me.

> I've tried to deisgn scenarios to highlight the Ranger's outdoor skills,
> and that helps, but for the life of me, I can't imagine how to make the
> Human Fighter feel useful, when standing anywhere near the Barbarian.
>
> They are both designed to get in there and 'mix it up', but the
> Barbarian has Rage, Higher hit points, etc.

Correct me if I am wrong, not terribly familiar with the barbarian(I play
2E), but aren't they NOT allowed to wear any serious armor? If that's the
case, just put them up against lots of "mildly tough" stuff. "Mildly Tough"
monsters can hit with fairly reliable frequency on relatively unarmored
opponents, but have a fairly difficult time hitting armored opponents.
ALso, a "mildly tough" monster can hit with some force. That means that for
every hit the fighter takes at X avg hp, the barbarian might take 3 hits at
the same average. Hit points are no longer the deciding factor, armor is.
Of course, this all hinges on the amount of armor a barbarian can wear, so
it might be a moot point.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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Jeff Goslin wrote:
> "David Serhienko" <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote in message
> news:114jg3trvk9s68b@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>Now, in my estimation, part of this problem is that none of the other
>>characters are so 'laser targeted' in the scope of their abilities, but,
>>even so, shouldn't it have taken more levels than 5 for the barbarian to
>> outstrip everyone else in pure combat monsteryness?
>>
>>I am tempted to consider this a munchkin problem, but then again, the
>>only thing the player has done is go for the Great Sword, and, really,
>>wouldn't any self-respecting barbarian? Maybe a Great Axe.
>
> It sure sounds like pure & distilled power gaming to me.

*shrug* Barbarians get most of their ability from being able to slug it
out toe to toe, so Strength and Con are your best bet. Half-orcs favor
barbarian, and give bonuses to strength and con. No surprise if both of
these abilities are close to maxxed out... I'd consider that fairly
typical, even for the least power gamerish type.

Great swords and Great Axes do assloads of damage, and aren't in any way
a special weapon, so I'd be surprised anyone wouldn't take one. In
fact, with the exception of the fact that published adventures tend to
feature magic longswords far out of proportion to any other type, I
can't see why anyone would prefer a shield and a d8 damage to 2d6 damage
and no shield.

>>I've tried to deisgn scenarios to highlight the Ranger's outdoor skills,
>>and that helps, but for the life of me, I can't imagine how to make the
>>Human Fighter feel useful, when standing anywhere near the Barbarian.
>>
>>They are both designed to get in there and 'mix it up', but the
>>Barbarian has Rage, Higher hit points, etc.
>
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, not terribly familiar with the barbarian(I play
> 2E), but aren't they NOT allowed to wear any serious armor?

They can wear up to medium armor without extra feats or penalties to
skill checks (think Chainmail or less). If they wear heavier armor,
they lose their Fast Movement (+10 ft/round), and that's it.

> If that's the
> case, just put them up against lots of "mildly tough" stuff. "Mildly Tough"
> monsters can hit with fairly reliable frequency on relatively unarmored
> opponents, but have a fairly difficult time hitting armored opponents.
> ALso, a "mildly tough" monster can hit with some force. That means that for
> every hit the fighter takes at X avg hp, the barbarian might take 3 hits at
> the same average. Hit points are no longer the deciding factor, armor is.
> Of course, this all hinges on the amount of armor a barbarian can wear, so
> it might be a moot point.

Sadly, fairly moot, I think.

DWS

 

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David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote:
>The problem is that the damn barbarian, when you take into account his
>high strength, rage, his BAB, and his +2 greatsword, he is regularly
>dishing out over 20 points of damage a round, while everyone else is
>averaging 5 or so.

Does the barbarian always rage when going into combat? Do things ever
play "I'm more than twice as fast as you are, so I'm going to use
Spring Attack to ding you for a few points every raound, then get out
of range"? Are there ever well-protected spellcasters with Will-save
spells? Daze, even? Are the characters ever in a position (cramped
quarters, like following wererats down tunnels, for example) where
a greatsword can't be brought to bear?

With the first point, you can send in a second sortie of troops
after the barbarian comes out of rage, and is fatigued. With a net
-6 to STR compared to in-rage, that's a big difference in combat
potential.

Of course, the fact that you have a party of all fighter-types is
going to be a problem in all sorts of other ways...

Donald

 

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Donald Tsang wrote:
> David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote:
>
>>The problem is that the damn barbarian, when you take into account his
>>high strength, rage, his BAB, and his +2 greatsword, he is regularly
>>dishing out over 20 points of damage a round, while everyone else is
>>averaging 5 or so.
>
>
> Does the barbarian always rage when going into combat?

Anytime the combat looks 'interesting', which is to say anytime the
opponents don't appear to be 'mooks' or 'redshirts'. Early on, I
mistakenly introduced a magic item called 'rage berries', which allows
the eater to rage the round after eating them.

My thought was that everyone in the party would get a couple, as I
thought the idea was interesting, and I would be amused to see the
halfling sorceror raging away with her cute little staff, but the
players decided to give them all to the barb.

The Barb has a half dozen in a pouch, plus his daily allotment of
Twice/Day, but no idea where to get more berries.

> Do things ever
> play "I'm more than twice as fast as you are, so I'm going to use
> Spring Attack to ding you for a few points every raound, then get out
> of range"?

Not so far. Why? I am obviously missing something?

> Are there ever well-protected spellcasters with Will-save
> spells? Daze, even?

A couple times, and he's been stupid lucky on his saves. I am always
careful to not tailor my encounters to specifically nerf the PCs
abilities, unless the BBEG knows them. In this campaign, the BBEGs
haven't yet known who these interlopers were, or what they could do.

I *do* try my best to play them as dangerously as I can imagine, though,
once the fur starts flying, I use the best tactics I can think of.

> Are the characters ever in a position (cramped
> quarters, like following wererats down tunnels, for example) where
> a greatsword can't be brought to bear?

So far mostly outdoor areas, or areas meant for medium sized folks.

> With the first point, you can send in a second sortie of troops
> after the barbarian comes out of rage, and is fatigued. With a net
> -6 to STR compared to in-rage, that's a big difference in combat
> potential.

Absolutely right! I should be pressuring them in waves when appropriate.

> Of course, the fact that you have a party of all fighter-types is
> going to be a problem in all sorts of other ways...

I left out the other PCs that don't feel useless in my description.

The Full Party (now referred to as the Lion's Gate Adventuring Cabal)
consists of:

Half-Orc Barbarian 5 (Player A)
Human Fighter 5 (Player B)
Human Ranger 5 (Player B)
Halfling Sorceress 4 (Player A)
**Elf Wizard 4 (DM 1)
**Half-Elf Bard 4* (DM 2)
Human Cleric 5 (NPC)

* - The Bard is actually customized somewhat via use of 'Buy the
Numbers', giving up some bardic knowledge, gaining sneak attack as a
rogue, but at a slower progression.

** - These are the DM PCs. The way it usually works out is this:


When I am playing, then you know the Wizard is coming (he's my only PC),
which means Player A brings the Barbarian instead of the sorceress,
which means we don't need more combat muscle, so Player B brings along
the Ranger. DM 2 has only one PC, which will be sidelined, the Cleric
still always comes along. We call this the A Team (since they were the
first grouping we used).

When I am DMing, then you know the Wizard is backgrounded (he's my PC),
which means Player A brings the Sorceress. DM 2 has only one PC, so he
brings the Bard, the Cleric always comes along (if the
timeline/storyline allows it), which means we need some combat muscle,
so Player B brings along the Fighter. We call this the B Team.

The problem especially rears its ugly head when the storyline/plotline
brings everyone together. It is still a problem when it is the Ranger
and teh Barbarian, but it really gets bad when a plotline begins to
approach the BBEG.

We tend to run our plots so that the two teams are working on
simultaneous quests, and, as the plots draw to a close, if possible, we
two DMs try to find a way to tie them together if possible. Last time,
brought my quest ALMOST to completion, consciously echoing plot threads
in DM2's plot, and handed over the threads I had dangling, having never
actually designed the end of it, just having vaguely pointed it in a
certain direction, so the other DM could draw connections and make it
part of his uberplot.

Works great, and is a lot of fun, with two teams out there seeing half
the picture, then they all come together and head off to win the day.

At which point everyone just follows the half-orc, since there aren't
really many CR5 or CR6 challenges he can't mow through in a round or
two. Anything with higher CR teeters on the edge of a Total Party Kill
if played effectively. If played INeffectively, then the barbarian is
just that much more effective, since the players never pull their punches.


DWS

 

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Alien mind control rays made David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> write:
> The Short Version:
> The Player of our 5th Level Human Fighter, using a longsword and shield
> in good armor seems hopelessly inadequate when compared to our 5th level
> Half-Orc barbarian, using a Great Sword and middling armor. I need
> ideas that will move the spotlight off the barbarian whenever combat
> happens and onto the fighter for a while, so he has a chance to shine.
> Otherwise, I fear the player will get discouraged and quit, which is no
> fun for anyone.

against a diet of single, challenging melee foes, the barbarian is
always going to kick the most ass, period. you'll just have to mix
things up, pit the party against the unconventional.

the schtick of the fighter class is a lot of feats. yours must have a
few interesting ones by now, what are they? try playing to those.
throw in an occassional scenario where the barbarian is hampered or
takes a penalty, but not the fighter, because of some feat he's taken.
globs of small, low hit point creatures like rats make cleave and great
cleave really useful, and huge damage not so much.

contrive a situation where one of the PCs may benefit from wearing a
particular suit of heavy armor for a while. "this is the plate mail of
kas, the rune guardians will probably recognize it and not attack the
wearer and those with him while we're in the dungeon." with a modest
bluff check, of course.

the barbarian is more likely to be permanently married to his
greatsword, the fighter might be more willing to pick up and use the
interesting weapons. the silver kukri is suddenly really useful when
the party meets the werewolves three rooms later.

lots of little, hit and run encounters to wear out the barbarian.
without his rage, and perhaps fatigued, the fighter might come to the
rescue.

barbarians usually can't read. hilarity ensues.

--
\^\ // drow@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/>
\ // - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
// \ X-Windows: The defacto sub-standard.
// \_\ -- Dude from DPAK

 

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On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:59:50 -0600, David Serhienko
<david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote:

>Some background:
>The campaign I play in has two DMs, me and another, who alternate
>running adventures. While DMing, our personal PCs are always 'doing
>research' in the background... i.e. not being played. The DM-PCs aren't
>our current problem, though.
>
>The Short Version:
>The Player of our 5th Level Human Fighter, using a longsword and shield
>in good armor seems hopelessly inadequate when compared to our 5th level
>Half-Orc barbarian, using a Great Sword and middling armor.

The problem here is that you have a member of a regular class
competing with a super class. A situation like that arose in one game
I ran, but it never turned out to be a problem because the regular
fighter was the leader. Can you PrC him up? Does he have abilities
the Barbarian doesn't that can be exploited?

 

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David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote:
>> Do things ever
>> play "I'm more than twice as fast as you are, so I'm going to use
>> Spring Attack to ding you for a few points every raound, then get out
>> of range"?
>
>Not so far. Why? I am obviously missing something?

Because the Barbarian probably doesn't even carry a missile weapon?
I suppose it's a little hard to get something with a Move of 80, though.

How about opponents who fly?


>At which point everyone just follows the half-orc, since there aren't
>really many CR5 or CR6 challenges he can't mow through in a round or
>two. Anything with higher CR teeters on the edge of a Total Party Kill
>if played effectively. If played INeffectively, then the barbarian is
>just that much more effective, since the players never pull their punches.

How about things with DR X/bludgeoning? Does the barbarian carry a backup
weapon (like a morningstar)?


I still like the idea of playing to the Barbarian's weaknesses. Does he
have a Charisma of 6, by chance? A lot of people don't like half-orcs,
even when they don't have really low Charismas...

Donald

 

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"David Serhienko" <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote in message
news:114k4ilg1inlk91@corp.supernews.com...
> > It sure sounds like pure & distilled power gaming to me.
>
> *shrug* Barbarians get most of their ability from being able to slug it
> out toe to toe, so Strength and Con are your best bet. Half-orcs favor
> barbarian, and give bonuses to strength and con. No surprise if both of
> these abilities are close to maxxed out... I'd consider that fairly
> typical, even for the least power gamerish type.

Well, that's the power gamer view of it. Someone who's more interested in
the character than his stats might be inclined to first ask what kind of
character he would like to play, not what class to select. It sounds to me
like he let the stats lead the character, not the other way around.
Encourage the other way around.

REWARD the other way around. I award individual experience points almost
EXCLUSIVELY for role playing efforts. Nobody gets extra for killing stuff,
nobody gets extra for spell casting, nobody gets extra for doing much of
anything EXCEPT role playing(and cracking jokes that make us laugh, oh, and
good ideas too). Divide the experience for combat (and treasure, if you do
that, we don't) equally among all characters, reward individual players for
role playing their characters well. That will make it pretty damn clear
when Thundar the Barbarian gets an individual reward of ZERO every game.
He'll know how to get the rewards, it's just a question of whether he will
do it or not.

> Great swords and Great Axes do assloads of damage, and aren't in any way
> a special weapon, so I'd be surprised anyone wouldn't take one. In

A *ROLE* *PLAYER* might select a non-optimal weapon for it's CHARACTER, not
for it's combat effectiveness. Why would any cleric pick club over mace,
for example? A power gamer wouldn't. A role player might say "his family
were seal hunters, he was as well, and he knows how to use a club
well..."(or some other reason).

> fact, with the exception of the fact that published adventures tend to
> feature magic longswords far out of proportion to any other type, I
> can't see why anyone would prefer a shield and a d8 damage to 2d6 damage
> and no shield.

That's the power gamer reason.

> > Correct me if I am wrong, not terribly familiar with the barbarian(I
play
> > 2E), but aren't they NOT allowed to wear any serious armor?
>
> They can wear up to medium armor without extra feats or penalties to
> skill checks (think Chainmail or less). If they wear heavier armor,
> they lose their Fast Movement (+10 ft/round), and that's it.

Make him a REAL barbarian then, using rule zero. No armor, like Conan or
something, you know loincloth and scabbard, nothing more.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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"David Serhienko" wrote
>
> I've tried to deisgn scenarios to highlight the Ranger's outdoor skills,
> and that helps, but for the life of me, I can't imagine how to make the
> Human Fighter feel useful, when standing anywhere near the Barbarian.
>
> They are both designed to get in there and 'mix it up', but the
> Barbarian has Rage, Higher hit points, etc.
>
> Any ideas on how I can design a scenario or two to move the spotlight
> off the barb onto the fighter?

Its hard to say anything exact not know what feats the fighter has, but play
to his strengths. One thing the fighter can do is wear heavy armor, so let
him. Maybe throw in a nice suit of magic plate and a shield and let him
become an AC machine.

John

 

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On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:59:50 -0600, David Serhienko
<david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> scribed into the ether:

>Some background:
>The campaign I play in has two DMs, me and another, who alternate
>running adventures. While DMing, our personal PCs are always 'doing
>research' in the background... i.e. not being played. The DM-PCs aren't
>our current problem, though.
>
>The Short Version:
>The Player of our 5th Level Human Fighter, using a longsword and shield
>in good armor seems hopelessly inadequate when compared to our 5th level
>Half-Orc barbarian, using a Great Sword and middling armor. I need
>ideas that will move the spotlight off the barbarian whenever combat
>happens and onto the fighter for a while, so he has a chance to shine.
>Otherwise, I fear the player will get discouraged and quit, which is no
>fun for anyone.

Battles with length. Enemies that come in waves. If the Barbarian rages,
then he'll be a lot less effective later on when the rage wears off.

The AC difference between the two is probably fairly substantial, 4-5
points or so...some opponents who can hit the barbarian easily, but inflict
non-hitpoint related ailments will cause the barbarian to not want to go
toe-to-toe with those opponents, where the fighter can prevail due to not
being hit.

Level 6 should also help, since the Fighter will be getting an extra feat.
The fighter feat boost isn't as noticeable in the early levels.

 

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"Jeff Goslin" wrote
> "David Serhienko" wrote
> > Now, in my estimation, part of this problem is that none of the other
> > characters are so 'laser targeted' in the scope of their abilities, but,
> > even so, shouldn't it have taken more levels than 5 for the barbarian to
> > outstrip everyone else in pure combat monsteryness?
> >
> > I am tempted to consider this a munchkin problem, but then again, the
> > only thing the player has done is go for the Great Sword, and, really,
> > wouldn't any self-respecting barbarian? Maybe a Great Axe.
>
> It sure sounds like pure & distilled power gaming to me.

What, you think a big strong barbarian should wield a dagger?

John

 

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"John Phillips" <jsphillips1@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:i8p2e.22833$cg1.4563@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > > I am tempted to consider this a munchkin problem, but then again, the
> > > only thing the player has done is go for the Great Sword, and, really,
> > > wouldn't any self-respecting barbarian? Maybe a Great Axe.
> >
> > It sure sounds like pure & distilled power gaming to me.
>
> What, you think a big strong barbarian should wield a dagger?

At least he'd have character.

There are, of course, logical things to do, but it doesn't always mean "pick
the weapon with the most damage potential". As long as you have *A* weapon
that can realistically be used in combat, it doesn't much matter what it is.
A paladin we had chose warhammer as his primary weapon, definitely NOT an
optimal choice from a mechanics perspective, but it make him a paladin with
CHARACTER.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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Jeff Goslin wrote:
> "John Phillips" <jsphillips1@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:i8p2e.22833$cg1.4563@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>>>>I am tempted to consider this a munchkin problem, but then again, the
>>>>only thing the player has done is go for the Great Sword, and, really,
>>>>wouldn't any self-respecting barbarian? Maybe a Great Axe.
>>>
>>>It sure sounds like pure & distilled power gaming to me.
>>
>>What, you think a big strong barbarian should wield a dagger?
>
>
> At least he'd have character.
>
> There are, of course, logical things to do, but it doesn't always mean "pick
> the weapon with the most damage potential". As long as you have *A* weapon
> that can realistically be used in combat, it doesn't much matter what it is.
> A paladin we had chose warhammer as his primary weapon, definitely NOT an
> optimal choice from a mechanics perspective, but it make him a paladin with
> CHARACTER.

Had a Magic-User in 2e who insisted on wielding the battleaxe of a
fallen comrade 'in his memory'. I applied the standard XP penalties at
first.

He made such a strikingly tragic figure, composing odes to his sworn
blood brother, mercilessly hunting his friend's murderers and anyone
involved, and killing them with that axe.

I relented eventually, asking if he'd rather take a -8 penalty to hit,
or continue with the XP penalty. He took the -8. And used the axe for
the next two years, passing on items which were better, more appropriate
to him, or both.

DWS

 

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On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:49:54 -0500, "Jeff Goslin"
<autockr@comcast.net> wrote:

>"David Serhienko" <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote in message
>news:114jjc3lnoa02b8@corp.supernews.com...
>> Anytime the combat looks 'interesting', which is to say anytime the
>> opponents don't appear to be 'mooks' or 'redshirts'. Early on, I
>> mistakenly introduced a magic item called 'rage berries', which allows
>> the eater to rage the round after eating them.
>
>First things first, "those berries mysteriously rotted, I dunno, it's crazy,
>end of story, no discussion."

Without refrigeration real berries wouldn't be good for more than a
few days. They aren't rage raisins, after all.

 

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"David Johnston" <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:4249c541.206970279@news.telusplanet.net...
> >First things first, "those berries mysteriously rotted, I dunno, it's
crazy,
> >end of story, no discussion."
>
> Without refrigeration real berries wouldn't be good for more than a
> few days. They aren't rage raisins, after all.

Well, I have a feeling that they would be "magically enhanced" or something,
in most people's eyes, so as to not rot. I have a feeling that our power
gamer would throw a hissy fit if it wasn't an OBVIOUS rule zero
implementation. "Magical stuff DOESN'T ROT!!! Whatchumean??" "I dunno,
it's crazy, they rotted, what can I tellya."

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Alien mind control rays made David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> write:
>> Put them in situations where swinging a huge sword is not an option.
>
> By RAW, are there rules on fighting in cramped spaces with large weapons?

none that help the fighter...

Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through
an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can
squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as
your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts
as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you
take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

> Also, while I'm asking, I know you add 1.5x strength bonus when using a
> two handed weapon, but shouldn't that bonus already have been figured
> into the damage dice for the weapon when it REQUIRES two-handed use?

no more so than 1x strength bonus can be figured into the damage dice
for a weapon which requires one-handed use. that is, the strength
bonus varies, why would a weakling get as much of a 'two-handed'
benefit as a strong warrior?

> Heh. Originally, there were two NPC clerics, one travelling with the A
> Team, and one with the B Team.

i still can't understand why nobody in a party would want to play a
cleric. they're the most damn fun...

> I'm going over to chat with DM2 about this an hour before session start
> next time, because I see a problem in the making... The "All Orc
> Theater" show is about to start if we don't do something.

everyone knows orcs is no good and evil, its time fer a lynchin!

--
\^\ // drow@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/>
\ // - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
// \ X-Windows: Simplicity made complex.
// \_\ -- Dude from DPAK

 

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Jeff Goslin wrote:
> "David Serhienko" <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote in message

>>As an added bonus, they ALREADY have one of the two organized crime
>>syndicates (that they are aware of) out for their blood, so, if
>>necessary, I can use that as a hook to rid the party of unwanted loot.
>
> TWO crime syndicates are after them, and they are STILL alive?

Understandable parse error. The party is aware of two crime syndicates
in this very large City. There are more they aren't aware of. One of
the crime syndicates is after their blood, due to very recent developments.

> Wow, I'm either very impressed at the party's abilities or shocked at
> the stupidity of your criminals! It's called an assassin's guild,
> chief.

For personal vendetta reasons, the party allied itself with Criminal
Organization Number Two, in order to strike directly at the leadership
cabal within Crime Syndicate Number One.

Syndicate One has, in the weeks immediately following the loss of its
leaders, devolved into predictable internecine warfare over who should
take over the various operations, while suffering the also predictable
depradations from outside gangs, muscling in on Syndicate One's former
territory/operations.

In the last week or so, though, it has all stopped. Syndicate One has
dissappeared from sight, according to Syndicate Two, and the body of its
main leader has been stolen from the Traitor's Gallows from which it hung.

The party is not noticably concerned, although their erttwhile allies
are quite disturbed, and have tried to warn the party, to little effect.
The party will learn to recognize longterm consequences the hard way
soon, I'd imagine.

DWS

 

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freakybaby wrote:
> In fact ten foot deep pit traps with opponent using longspears is
quite fun
> too widdle down an enemy with.

That's what Jump skill is for...now, what happens when a
jumping character is AO'ed halfway through their leap? ;-)

Had some orcs that built crenelated defenses along a ledge
that was a little above the ledge on the other side of
a 10ft chasm. A higher ledge that kind of looked along
the length of the chasm was also crenelated. A narrow
bridge - about 8 inches wide - crossed the gap, and lots
of orcs with pole arms were ready to knock people off it
while their buddies on the high ledge plinked arrows at
people. The party took one look and started searching
for alternate entrances.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

 

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David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote in
news:114jg3trvk9s68b@corp.supernews.com:

> Some background:
> The campaign I play in has two DMs, me and another, who alternate
> running adventures. While DMing, our personal PCs are always 'doing
> research' in the background... i.e. not being played. The DM-PCs aren't
> our current problem, though.
>
> The Short Version:
> The Player of our 5th Level Human Fighter, using a longsword and shield
> in good armor seems hopelessly inadequate when compared to our 5th level
> Half-Orc barbarian, using a Great Sword and middling armor. I need
> ideas that will move the spotlight off the barbarian whenever combat
> happens and onto the fighter for a while, so he has a chance to shine.
> Otherwise, I fear the player will get discouraged and quit, which is no
> fun for anyone.


Hit the barbarian with a Ray of enfeeblement, then a web spell to slow
her/him down in a future combat just after the rage starts.

Hammer the barbarian with ranged attacks for a the first couple of rounds.

Drop a grease spell under the barbarian's feet.

Gang up on him/her using reach weapons to gain flanking, stay out of his
reach and the reach of the fighter as well, make them think through the
combats

Lure the barbarian into a net trap and have him swinging about twenty to
thirty feet off the ground.

Mainly set up some combats that favour planning and thought verus rather
than just charging in and opening a can of whopp-ass.

Use some kind of cover with a break in the cover, though where the break is
it is actually some kind of pit trap or something else just as nasty.

####X#### # Is the perimeter
# # X is a movable section for escaping
# # PP is a break in the perimeter with
# # a pittrap or something just as nasty
###PP####

In fact ten foot deep pit traps with opponent using longspears is quite fun
too widdle down an enemy with.