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>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/3686150.stm
>
>
> What's going on?
>
> In all my years of lamping I have never heard of so many accidents.
>
> John

The people trying to ban hunting are now going out with guns and shooting
innocent people to try to get shooting banned altogether. That or the papers
are printing EVERY shooting accident whereas before they left a few out?

--
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TFSTR#[1]
 
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>Subject: Re: Another Lamping Accident
>From: John zero_one34@hotmail.com
>Date: 24/09/2004 18:26 GMT

>What's going on?
>
>In all my years of lamping I have never heard of so many accidents.

Tis very odd, very odd.

Steve. Suffolk.
remove 'knujon' to e-mail
 

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an6530@aol.comknujon (AN6530) wrote in
news:20040924144015.15823.00001153@mb-m28.aol.com:

>>Subject: Re: Another Lamping Accident
>>From: John zero_one34@hotmail.com
>>Date: 24/09/2004 18:26 GMT
>
>>What’s going on?
>>
>>In all my years of lamping I have never heard of so many accidents.
>
> Tis very odd, very odd.


I would guess that just about every sportsman the UK over has read about
the resent lamping accidents. Surely people must have learned something
by now.
Ross is quite right. The papers will print every shooting accident but
even so, the papers have always printed anything adverse towards
shooting sports. This is something very different. Three accidents
whilst lamping in as many weeks, something’s amiss.
I haven’t started my lamping season proper yet but when I do, you can
bet the rules of lamping will be well and truly reinforced because of
the resent accidents.
I took the dogs out for a spot of lamping tonight, only a quick trip out
(less than 10 minuets in fact) and the score? Dog’s 1 rabbits 0 ?
The youngest is really coming on and thank the lord, isn’t a bone
cruncher!
There is something about watching your dog work, it’s not a perverse
deep-seated Neanderthal reaction as some would lead people to believe.
It’s the look on the dogs face after a successful course, pride I think.
It makes me feel on top of the world and the dogs’ are happy too.

John
 
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On 24 Sep 2004 17:26:32 GMT, John
<zero_one34@hotmail.com> wrote:

>nstrug@yahoo.com (Nick Strugnell) wrote in
>news:9762d28.0409240758.6852227d@posting.google.com:
>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/3686150.stm
>
>
>What’s going on?
>
>In all my years of lamping I have never heard of so many accidents.
>
>John

Well... For years each generation has claimed
that the one following it is more stupid. Now we are -
perhaps - sadly beginning to see proof. And we're
running out of those old boys who taught youngsters to
shoot and gave them hell if they were the least bit
careless because they had seen more than their fair
share of dead men in two world wars.

Maybe it's just a reflection of society in
general. Maybe I'm just feeling like a crabby old git
because I had a rather unpleasant run-in last night
with a barking mad little scrote who I wouldn't trust
with anything more lethal than a feather duster.

Perhaps - and this could be truly relevant - in
this increasingly technological age too many people are
relying on the equipment to do everything and not using
their own brains/instincts.

Gyppo

John Craggs - Writer - Adult Tutor - Storyteller
and All-Round Rogue
Need a laugh? Then subscribe to the free Monday Silly Digest:
mail to: gyppo1@ntlworld.com With 'MSD SUB' as subject.
 
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>Perhaps - and this could be truly relevant - in>this increasingly
technological age too many people are>relying on the equipment to do everything
and not using>their own brains/instincts.

I think there may just be a grain of truth in that observation, look at the
"friendly fire" incidents in Iraq, they rely so much on technology now, ie;
IFF, identification, friend or foe, that nobody uses their eyes, ears or
instinct anymore, cheers, Norman.
 
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"J Craggs" <gyppo1@NOSPAMPLEASEOLDCHAPntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:9c09l0dv21idfmlf2728ei6ber6v27m66k@4ax.com...
> On 24 Sep 2004 17:26:32 GMT, John
> <zero_one34@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >nstrug@yahoo.com (Nick Strugnell) wrote in
> >news:9762d28.0409240758.6852227d@posting.google.com:
> >
> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/3686150.stm
> >
> >
> >What's going on?
> >
> >In all my years of lamping I have never heard of so many accidents.
> >
> >John
>
> Well... For years each generation has claimed
> that the one following it is more stupid. Now we are -
> perhaps - sadly beginning to see proof. And we're
> running out of those old boys who taught youngsters to
> shoot and gave them hell if they were the least bit
> careless because they had seen more than their fair
> share of dead men in two world wars.
>
> Maybe it's just a reflection of society in
> general. Maybe I'm just feeling like a crabby old git
> because I had a rather unpleasant run-in last night
> with a barking mad little scrote who I wouldn't trust
> with anything more lethal than a feather duster.
>
> Perhaps - and this could be truly relevant - in
> this increasingly technological age too many people are
> relying on the equipment to do everything and not using
> their own brains/instincts.
>
> Gyppo
>
> John Craggs - Writer - Adult Tutor - Storyteller
> and All-Round Rogue
> Need a laugh? Then subscribe to the free Monday Silly Digest:
> mail to: gyppo1@ntlworld.com With 'MSD SUB' as subject.

I have to agree I was taught not to shoot unless I was sure of the target
and that I wanted it - difficult in the dark but well within the
capabilities of an experienced lamper. That there are these incidents shows
sloppy practice , the frequency shows that there are more trespassers now
that in any age before. The respect for other peoples land and possesions is
being eroded by Blairs croneys, I do not like that stupid right to roam
nonsense because it gives Joe public the impression he can wander wherever
he wants the abuse you get explaining to some idiot that he is playing with
his dog in a growing crop is unbeliveable and the fool who told me not to
get too close because she couldnt control the big dog she was trespassing
with- I was out shooting at the time? this btw is in cheshire where the RTR
does not apply of course
Derek


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On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:15:14 GMT, Derek wrote:

>"J Craggs" <gyppo1@NOSPAMPLEASEOLDCHAPntlworld.com> wrote in message

>> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/3686150.stm

>> >In all my years of lamping I have never heard of so many accidents.

>> Perhaps - and this could be truly relevant - in
>> this increasingly technological age too many people are
>> relying on the equipment to do everything and not using
>> their own brains/instincts.

> I have to agree I was taught not to shoot unless I was sure of the target
>and that I wanted it - difficult in the dark but well within the
>capabilities of an experienced lamper. That there are these incidents shows
>sloppy practice , the frequency shows that there are more trespassers now
>that in any age before.

I can't say exactly where the man and his son were walking when this
happened but reference is made to Whitwood Golf Course. This is a nine
hole public course which is close to a built up area with public
rights of way across it. See this map (URL may wrap)

<http://uk.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=440000&Y=420000&gride=440320&gridn=424532&scale=25000>

Looking again at the report on the BBC page there is now a link to
another page stating that an arrest has been made.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/3689452.stm

--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"
 

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Phil Cook <u-r-s-g@p-t-cook.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
news:8m5bl01tr28mt85b83od49d9mrpkgj2dl7@4ax.com:

>
> <http://uk.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=440000&Y=420000
> &gride=440320&gridn=424532&scale=25000>
>
> Looking again at the report on the BBC page there is now a link to
> another page stating that an arrest has been made.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/3689452.stm

Andy is from the area.

Andy, can you add any details?

John
 
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I have no more news than has already been posted
http://www.westyorkshire.police.uk/section-item.asp?sid=12&iid=867

"John" <zero_one34@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns956FBE6E0DF0COEcopyremovedheaders@130.133.1.4...
> Phil Cook <u-r-s-g@p-t-cook.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
> news:8m5bl01tr28mt85b83od49d9mrpkgj2dl7@4ax.com:
>
> >
> > <http://uk.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=440000&Y=420000
> > &gride=440320&gridn=424532&scale=25000>
> >
> > Looking again at the report on the BBC page there is now a link to
> > another page stating that an arrest has been made.
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/3689452.stm
>
> Andy is from the area.
>
> Andy, can you add any details?
>
> John
>
 
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the area of the shooting was on land adjacent to the golf course known as
"Whitwood common lane" I live approximately 20 min from there this land has
past been the seen of illegal lamping and coursing for a number of years now
I have not shot on there but one partridge drive runs up to the back of the
golf course there is no high ground as such and a lack of decent back stops
as so as far as I can gather from the point at witch the boy was shot the
shooter would have been pointing towards the houses from what I can
remember the highest point of the golf course is only 30 meters and hats a
very gradual slope

"West Yorkshire Police said an 18-year-old man from Castleford was being
held following his arrest on Saturday."

the above is only my opinion for what it is worth

reguards ash
 

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"ash.bat" <ash.bat@virgin.net> wrote in
news:fAy5d.64$VV5.4@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net:

> the above is only my opinion for what it is worth
>
> reguards ash

Do you know what “gun” was involved?
This chap was obviously trespassing?
Do you know who owns the land?
Any idea what they were lamping at the time of the incident?

TIA

John
 
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john
>
> Do you know what "gun" was involved?
no john
> This chap was obviously trespassing?
yes
> Do you know who owns the land?
no the glof couse it on lease the land wich the boy was shot on in common
land
> Any idea what they were lamping at the time of the incident?
no rabbit would be best guess
>
> TIA
>
> John
>
>
 

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On 26 Sep 2004 12:57:39 GMT, John <zero_one34@hotmail.com> wrote:
>snippety snip<

>Do you know what “gun” was involved?

And was the ground cleared by The Chief Officer of Police for the area
for the calibre of weapon involved?

>This chap was obviously trespassing?

And how close to a highway?

>Any idea what they were lamping at the time of the incident?

sounds like let's shoot some rabbits to me.

Throw the book at whomever was involved.
From Pete

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Being eaten by a crocodile is just like falling asleep in a blender"
Bart Simpson
 

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Pete <pete.ansbro@virgin.net> wrote in
news:algdl01fgrfe5r0lme6di58o4k5r68cf41@4ax.com:

> Throw the book at whomever was involved.


Incidents like these are going to seal our fate.
There will be calls to ban lamping or license it via DEFRA.
Can you imagine the public response to headlines akin to;

“They blind the animals with high powered search lights”
“Fox frozen with fear by bright beamed Maglight type torch”
“Fox hunts to buy last remaining stocks GE torch bulbs in their bid to
quench last minuet blood lust”
“Cross eyed man arrested after attempting to lamp neighbours gnome”
“Deadly torches designed for seeing in the dark are used to aid the
night time slaughter of animals”

I can genuinely see “lamps” and lamping being hit by legislation.

John
 
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As a member of the RAF, I cannot let that one go. The battlefield is a very
mobile place - the art is being able to respond more quickly than the enemy
(getting inside his decision-action loop, to keep it simple). Technology
(and superior training) will help you do that - however, modern technology
will never make battlefields safe for friendly forces. There have been
friendly fire incidents since the earliest times - even during the Battle of
Britain, friendly fighters shot down a number of Blenheims in an infamous
incident because they were misidentified as enemies - there was no
technology involved in that little 'error' than the Mark One Eyeball.

Don't ever think that the modern forces (certainly the British Armed Forces)
"rely so much on technology now, ie, IFF, identification, friend or foe,
that nobody uses their eyes, ears or instinct anymore." As professional
servicemen, we all understand the limitations of our equipment and we use it
for what it is...an aid to doing the job quicker, more professionally and
with less (and therefore giving us all as tax payers, better value for
money - sadly, the latter fact is becoming the most important thing to many
in the corridors of power.)

Anyway, back to the lamping debate...

(For what it's worth, this rash of incidents bothers me greatly - as already
noted, the press and therefore the public will get the wrong end of the
stick - it has all the makings of another knee-jerk 'dangerous dogs' act or
the banning of hand guns.)

Ian

"SEAANGLING" <seaangling@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040925051706.19078.00001516@mb-m29.aol.com...
> >Perhaps - and this could be truly relevant - in>this increasingly
> technological age too many people are>relying on the equipment to do
everything
> and not using>their own brains/instincts.
>
> I think there may just be a grain of truth in that observation, look at
the
> "friendly fire" incidents in Iraq, they rely so much on technology now,
ie;
> IFF, identification, friend or foe, that nobody uses their eyes, ears or
> instinct anymore, cheers, Norman.
 
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On 25 Sep 2004 09:17:06 GMT, seaangling@aol.com (SEAANGLING) wrote:

>>Perhaps - and this could be truly relevant - in>this increasingly
>technological age too many people are>relying on the equipment to do everything
>and not using>their own brains/instincts.
>
>I think there may just be a grain of truth in that observation, look at the
>"friendly fire" incidents in Iraq, they rely so much on technology now, ie;
>IFF, identification, friend or foe, that nobody uses their eyes, ears or
>instinct anymore, cheers, Norman.

It might have to do with the calibre of some of the US armed forces
personnel. The ones I have seen on the box (presumably put there
because they were the better versions) have been monosyllabic to say
the least.

(The trouble is reading the instruction manuals of these sophisticated
weapons..... it takes a long time when you have to move your lips at
the same time....)

J.
 
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There has been some interesting debate on this site about lamping:

http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=2cbf3dbae65d834602069cfce790157d&forumid=6

I recon its got a lot to do with a recent article in a shooting mag
giving loads of info on how to get started lamping. Now everyone with
any kind of gun and a few acres is going for it in a big way.

Accidents are inevitable and the great debate on the above forum was
for some form of licensing or control of lamping activities.
 
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"Derek" <delwattsspamnoman@cwcom.net> wrote in message news:<S3f5d.84$bL6.46@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net>...

> That there are these incidents shows
> sloppy practice , the frequency shows that there are more trespassers now
> that in any age before. The respect for other peoples land and possesions is
> being eroded by Blairs croneys, I do not like that stupid right to roam
>

Wow - that's a pretty big leap. I don't believe that there is any
evidence that the three people shot in recent months were trespassing.

The boy on the Castleford golf course was in a recreation area and was
shot by an illegal lamping party shooting on a public 9-hole course in
the middle of a town: http://tinyurl.com/5gmyw

And the lad in Devon was shot by his own stepfather (in a lamping part
of six!): http://tinyurl.com/6sqgw

The chap out with the night vision binoculars was on a footpath:
http://tinyurl.com/3rgka

So frankly I think your linking these incidents to an increase in the
frequency of trespassers doesn't hold water. Two of the incidents
showed outright irresponsibilty on the part of shooters and the third
(the night vision chap) was a horrible accident - the shooter has been
acquitted.

I'm amazed at the opprobrium heaped on the poor bastards who got shot
- on the Horse and Hound message boards Trevor Lawson, the guy with
the binoculars has been the target of particularly obscene comments.

There, people have described him as a 'sneaking bastard who deserved
what he got' and suggested that he got himself shot on purpose.

In fact, Trevor Lawson is a respected wildlife expert who writes for
amongst others Farmers Weekly and the National Trust. He is also an
expert on badgers and has given evidence to Parliament on bovine TB.

Nick
 

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nstrug@yahoo.com (Nick Strugnell) wrote in
news:9762d28.0409280539.143630b9@posting.google.com:

> "Derek" <delwattsspamnoman@cwcom.net> wrote in message
> So frankly I think your linking these incidents to an increase in the
> frequency of trespassers doesn't hold water. Two of the incidents
> showed outright irresponsibilty on the part of shooters and the third
> (the night vision chap) was a horrible accident - the shooter has
> been acquitted.


My Personal belief for what it’s worth is that there is a serious lack
of any mentor figures in shooting.
Not so long ago farther would teach son who would also in turn teach his
son.
Due to political pressures shooting has become almost an obscenity. This
combined with a lack of tutor’s has lead to a new breed of “shooter’s”
who rely solely on information gained from magazines or the internet.
Written information is one thing but it will never and can never replace
the securities imposed by personal instruction by an experienced person.
This trend in my opinion is set to increase as “guns” and “shooting”
become more and more reclusive. This is worrying because every boy wants
a “gun” and no matter what the law is, most teenage boys will have a gun
in their hands at some stage or another and a lamping they will go!. It
also amazes me how many so called experienced shots getting lamping
wrong, they seem to forget the inherent dangers of shooting at night and
believe that the edge of darkness is a safe back stop. Lamping much like
all forms of non-standard shooting is a skill that must be mastered.
Many people who I have taken lamping normally only shoot at rifle
ranges, it can become extremely worrying when they start letting loose
with their 10-22’s.
I guess the bottom line is that countryside sports are now involving
less traditional shots, people who don’t really shoot for any other
reason than pleasure. That might sound contradictive because we all must
enjoy shooting or we wouldn’t shoot? There are shooters and there are
shooters in my opinion. Some people are born to it and some are breed to
it but they are not the ones who shoot at eyes in the middle of the
night, they are not the ones who shoot fellow lamp’ers. Much like
weekend drivers, the new “give-it-a-go” fly by night participants are
the sort we need to educate, after all if it were not for them shooting
would die a lonely death.

John
 
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The Father to son traditions are almost gone in many sports.
My Father & Grandfather introduced me into fishing, just as I have
introduced my sons to it.

I wasn't introduced into shooting/hunting, I must admit I am self-taught
(late 80s), and read many of the great, late John Darlings work, which
inspired me greatly. (I've just been reading Air Rifle Hunting again
tonight) :)

I only shoot/hunt what I have use for, or as pest control, and even then, my
bag is never wasted.
Whether for the pot, the ferrets/dogs, and just recently the local
taxidermist.
Whereas the mentality of many seems to be 'shoot to kill 'til there ain't no
more' which is a great shame, as it devoids areas of wildlife and gives a
bad impression of all shooters to all onlookers.
Harvesting the wildlife should be just that, harvest what is needed, when
it's needed, leave the supply for another time it's needed, and not making
the land barren.

I am passing my knowledge to my sons (well, one of them, as the other isn't
that interested, but one of my daughters is starting to show an interest in
ferreting)
And I hope if they follow suit, they will too pass on the knowledge &
experience.
IMO this is what will keep the sport alive.

A 17yr old that's seen his mates shooting, can just walk into a gun shop and
buy an air rifle, then will let loose on Nature 'all guns blazing'
as-it-were.
Regulating such things is almost impossible in this day & age, and without
the introduction of laws to prevent it happening, sadly, it will carry on.
The drawback is if such laws are introduced, it will virtually kill our
sport in the way of newcomers entering, and effectively wipe us out
eventually.

--
Andy (UK_Rabbiter)
Creator, Manager & Moderator of Rabbit Hunters
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Rabbit
http://groups.msn.com/RabbitHunters
http://s7.invisionfree.com/Rabbit_Hunters
My site
www.ukrabbiter.co.uk
All mail is scanned by Norton Anti-virus 2004 Pro

John wrote:
> Nick Strugnell wrote:
>
> > Derek wrote:
> > So frankly I think your linking these incidents to an increase in the
> > frequency of trespassers doesn't hold water. Two of the incidents
> > showed outright irresponsibilty on the part of shooters and the third
> > (the night vision chap) was a horrible accident - the shooter has
> > been acquitted.
>
>
> My Personal belief for what it's worth is that there is a serious lack
> of any mentor figures in shooting.
> Not so long ago farther would teach son who would also in turn teach his
> son.
> Due to political pressures shooting has become almost an obscenity. This
> combined with a lack of tutor's has lead to a new breed of "shooter's"
> who rely solely on information gained from magazines or the internet.
> Written information is one thing but it will never and can never replace
> the securities imposed by personal instruction by an experienced person.
> This trend in my opinion is set to increase as "guns" and "shooting"
> become more and more reclusive. This is worrying because every boy wants
> a "gun" and no matter what the law is, most teenage boys will have a gun
> in their hands at some stage or another and a lamping they will go!. It
> also amazes me how many so called experienced shots getting lamping
> wrong, they seem to forget the inherent dangers of shooting at night and
> believe that the edge of darkness is a safe back stop. Lamping much like
> all forms of non-standard shooting is a skill that must be mastered.
> Many people who I have taken lamping normally only shoot at rifle
> ranges, it can become extremely worrying when they start letting loose
> with their 10-22's.
> I guess the bottom line is that countryside sports are now involving
> less traditional shots, people who don't really shoot for any other
> reason than pleasure. That might sound contradictive because we all must
> enjoy shooting or we wouldn't shoot? There are shooters and there are
> shooters in my opinion. Some people are born to it and some are breed to
> it but they are not the ones who shoot at eyes in the middle of the
> night, they are not the ones who shoot fellow lamp'ers. Much like
> weekend drivers, the new "give-it-a-go" fly by night participants are
> the sort we need to educate, after all if it were not for them shooting
> would die a lonely death.
>
> John
 
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"Nick Strugnell" <nstrug@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9762d28.0409280539.143630b9@posting.google.com...

>
> The boy on the Castleford golf course was in a recreation area and was
> shot by an illegal lamping party shooting on a public 9-hole course in
> the middle of a town: http://tinyurl.com/5gmyw
>
>The child, who has not been named, was hit while walking through an area of
thin scrubland at the back of Whitwood golf course in Castleford, West
York's, at around 8.30pm on Thursday.
regards ash
 
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On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 01:02:35 +0100, "Andy
\(UK_Rabbiter\)" <andy@ukrabbiter.co.uk> wrote:

>Harvesting the wildlife should be just that, harvest what is needed, when
>it's needed, leave the supply for another time it's needed, and not making
>the land barren.
>
That is an excellent philosophy. When we shoot
for the pot we are predators, not just 'killers'.

But how many times have you heard someone say
something like; "But why not leave the killing to
'proper' people and buy your meat ready to cook?"
Almost as if the stuff in a game dealer's just flew in,
eviscerated itself, and then adopted the appropriate
posture on a hook ;-)

Gyppo

John Craggs - Writer - Adult Tutor - Storyteller
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>
> > That there are these incidents shows
> > sloppy practice , the frequency shows that there are more trespassers
now
> > that in any age before. The respect for other peoples land and
possesions is
> > being eroded by Blairs croneys, I do not like that stupid right to roam
> >
>
> Wow - that's a pretty big leap. I don't believe that there is any
> evidence that the three people shot in recent months were trespassing.
>
> The boy on the Castleford golf course was in a recreation area and was
> shot by an illegal lamping party shooting on a public 9-hole course in
> the middle of a town: http://tinyurl.com/5gmyw
>
> So frankly I think your linking these incidents to an increase in the
> frequency of trespassers doesn't hold water. Two of the incidents
> showed outright irresponsibilty on the part of shooters and the third
> (the night vision chap) was a horrible accident - the shooter has been
> acquitted.
>
I snipped the post to make my point(s) this particular incident based on the
info posted is of course 'armed trespass' on the part of the shooter but
unless the person shot was on a public footpath (which according to other
posts is not the case) he was also trespassing just because the course is
owned by the council it does not give the right to the public to be on it
when not playing golf ( during the hours of darkness ) so it would appear
both parties were "at it"
my first hand experience is that the number of trespassers has increased I
have witnessed the damage they cause on friends farms, had a school party
wander into a shoot a 3/4 mile from the nearest footpath had dog walkers
wander across a field when we were shooting, hoof prints across a newly
planted field, fields set on fire, it goes on and on


Derek


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