The Problem With Dragons

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A friend and I were discussing dragons today, and one thing that came up was
that we were not entirely happy with how...small dragons are compared to
those of previous editions, or compared to how we would normally envision
them. One idea we had was to increase their size category by one (and
possibly two at higher age categories), giving all associated
bonuses/penalties. How do you think this should effect their CR?

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> A friend and I were discussing dragons today, and one thing that came
up was
> that we were not entirely happy with how...small dragons are compared
to
> those of previous editions, or compared to how we would normally
envision
> them. One idea we had was to increase their size category by one
(and
> possibly two at higher age categories), giving all associated
> bonuses/penalties. How do you think this should effect their CR?
>

Generally size increase is +1 per.

Personally I always thought small dragons should be smaller. I've
always pictured them very small (i.e. D&D Tiny size) from the mideaval
pictographs I've seen.

- Justisaur.

 

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Justisaur wrote:

> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
>>possibly two at higher age categories), giving all associated
>>bonuses/penalties. How do you think this should effect their CR?
>
> Generally size increase is +1 per.

MM says +1 when becoming Large.
Your version may make more sense when accounting for the ever
increasing Str, Con, and Natural Armor.

> Personally I always thought small dragons should be smaller. I've
> always pictured them very small (i.e. D&D Tiny size) from the mideaval
> pictographs I've seen.

I think wyrmling dragons should be smaller.
Dragon eggs are usually depicted as portable, yet a baby Gold
is man-sizsed.
OTOH, I think some of the adults are too small for fantasy but
just right for folklore.

 

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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> A friend and I were discussing dragons today, and one thing that came
up was
> that we were not entirely happy with how...small dragons are compared
to
> those of previous editions, or compared to how we would normally
envision
> them. One idea we had was to increase their size category by one
(and
> possibly two at higher age categories), giving all associated
> bonuses/penalties. How do you think this should effect their CR?

Wait . . . dragon range in size from Tiny to Colossal. I don't see the
problem. The sizes have all the range one could ever look for in a
dragon. Sizes don't GO past colossal . . .

 

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"Anivair" <anivair@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112292139.562799.224490@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> A friend and I were discussing dragons today, and one thing that came
> up was
>> that we were not entirely happy with how...small dragons are compared
> to
>> those of previous editions, or compared to how we would normally
> envision
>> them. One idea we had was to increase their size category by one
> (and
>> possibly two at higher age categories), giving all associated
>> bonuses/penalties. How do you think this should effect their CR?
>
> Wait . . . dragon range in size from Tiny to Colossal.

Yes, but there are amazingly powerful dragons at much smaller sizes than we
would prefer.

> I don't see the problem. The sizes have all the range one could ever look
> for in a
> dragon. Sizes don't GO past colossal . . .

Never heard of Colossal+?

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Anivair" <anivair@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1112292139.562799.224490@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>>
>>>A friend and I were discussing dragons today, and one thing that came
>>
>>up was
>>
>>>that we were not entirely happy with how...small dragons are compared
>>
>>to
>>
>>>those of previous editions, or compared to how we would normally
>>
>>envision
>>
>>>them. One idea we had was to increase their size category by one
>>
>>(and
>>
>>>possibly two at higher age categories), giving all associated
>>>bonuses/penalties. How do you think this should effect their CR?
>>
>>Wait . . . dragon range in size from Tiny to Colossal.
>
>
> Yes, but there are amazingly powerful dragons at much smaller sizes than we
> would prefer.
>
>
>>I don't see the problem. The sizes have all the range one could ever look
>>for in a
>>dragon. Sizes don't GO past colossal . . .
>
>
> Never heard of Colossal+?

Supersize me!

- Ron ^*^

 

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"Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in message
news:B%%2e.72628$7z6.486@lakeread04...
>
>
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> "Anivair" <anivair@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1112292139.562799.224490@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>Malachias Invictus wrote:
>>>
>>>>A friend and I were discussing dragons today, and one thing that came
>>>
>>>up was
>>>
>>>>that we were not entirely happy with how...small dragons are compared
>>>
>>>to
>>>
>>>>those of previous editions, or compared to how we would normally
>>>
>>>envision
>>>
>>>>them. One idea we had was to increase their size category by one
>>>
>>>(and
>>>
>>>>possibly two at higher age categories), giving all associated
>>>>bonuses/penalties. How do you think this should effect their CR?
>>>
>>>Wait . . . dragon range in size from Tiny to Colossal.
>>
>>
>> Yes, but there are amazingly powerful dragons at much smaller sizes than
>> we would prefer.
>>
>>
>>>I don't see the problem. The sizes have all the range one could ever
>>>look for in a
>>>dragon. Sizes don't GO past colossal . . .
>>
>>
>> Never heard of Colossal+?
>
> Supersize me!

I have not eaten fast food since I saw that.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:45:15 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Yes, but there are amazingly powerful dragons at much smaller sizes than we
> would prefer.

You need to cleanse yourself of second edition thinking, is what you
need to do.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:59:17 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> > Supersize me!
>
> I have not eaten fast food since I saw that.

I varefully avoided seeing it. My flatmate, OTOH, saw it, lectured us
on the evils of fastfood, vowed he'd never eat it again, and was
buying MickyDee's again within a week.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:ksnp41lo4vsks00ll18jrn71g3rmuqv7kr@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:59:17 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> > Supersize me!
>>
>> I have not eaten fast food since I saw that.
>
> I varefully avoided seeing it. My flatmate, OTOH, saw it, lectured us
> on the evils of fastfood, vowed he'd never eat it again, and was
> buying MickyDee's again within a week.

I did not eat it much to begin with. However, after watching the movie, I
did some research on my own, and decided I was *much* better off without it.
I still eat out frequently, but instead of fast food joints, I eat at local
lunch places that serve real food.

You have to see the Amazing Non-Decomposing Fries though. Disgusting.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Ed Chauvin IV wrote:

> I've sworn off McDonald's for almost two years now, and it has
nothing
> to do with the health factor. How long has it been since you went
> through their drive-thru and were NOT asked to pull ahead to wait
"for
> your fries to get done"?

I rarely get that one, but I almost always have to scream my order to
someone who barely speaks english and who seems really pissed off that
I wanted fries and not mustard like they thought I heard. And then my
order is often wrong.

I'm not one of those jackasses who thinks everyone should be forced to
learn perfect english at gunpoint, but I think that if you don't speak
the language well then your job at McDonalds should revolve around
cooking and not speaking english. Just like I don't act as a brain
surgeon, because I lack the proper brain cutting skills.

 

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Mere moments before death, Rupert Boleyn hastily scrawled:
>On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:59:17 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
><capt_malachias@hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> > Supersize me!
>>
>> I have not eaten fast food since I saw that.
>
>I varefully avoided seeing it. My flatmate, OTOH, saw it, lectured us
>on the evils of fastfood, vowed he'd never eat it again, and was
>buying MickyDee's again within a week.

I've sworn off McDonald's for almost two years now, and it has nothing
to do with the health factor. How long has it been since you went
through their drive-thru and were NOT asked to pull ahead to wait "for
your fries to get done"?



Ed Chauvin IV

--
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use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

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--Terry Austin

 

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Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> I don't eat burger-chain fast-food much, either. In fact,
> until about a month ago I went without it for nearly a year. The thing
> I noticed most when I bought a quarter-pounder after that gap was how
> salty the thng was. The next thing was how much it relied on being
> oily/fatty to give a sense of having eaten well. My main form of
> 'fast-food' is pies.

A bus stop I'm at regularly is about 100 feet down-wind of a
McDonald's. It smells great (especially in winter) for about 15-20
seconds ... and then the combination of cooking fats and heavy salt is
enough to gag a hippo.


Robert Huff

 

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Robert Huff <roberthuff@rcn.com> wrote:
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
>> I don't eat burger-chain fast-food much, either. In fact,
>> until about a month ago I went without it for nearly a year. The thing
>> I noticed most when I bought a quarter-pounder after that gap was how
>> salty the thng was. The next thing was how much it relied on being
>> oily/fatty to give a sense of having eaten well. My main form of
>> 'fast-food' is pies.
>
> A bus stop I'm at regularly is about 100 feet down-wind of a
> McDonald's. It smells great (especially in winter) for about 15-20
> seconds ... and then the combination of cooking fats and heavy salt is
> enough to gag a hippo.

The fries smell good. I'm not so sure about their 'meat'.

I remember a couple times when the smell of McDs was overpoweringly
unpleasant.

I've never been much on eating right after a workout. I usually have to
rehydrate before I get hungry[1]. On a couple of the longer rides I've
gone on I've had to pass by a McDs. After being on my bike for a couple
of hours my body is turned off food to begin with. The smell of the
grease almost turned me inside out.


[1] unless my blood sugar has crashed *too* much... when that happens I
*have* to eat something -- cheese seems best -- to clear the
dizziness.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13

 

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On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:00:20 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> About a month ago I decided I deserved a treat, had a burger and fries
> at a local fish and chip shop (i.e. *real* burger, not those weird
> machine- shaped things, *proper* fries with the skin still on, etc.) and
> a pint of Hermann's (local dark beer).

Ah, fish & chips. The tradional NZ Friday dinner.

> Overall, a tasty meal. The beer was *sweet*, though, after a year of
> avoiding sugar. For that matter, normal peanut butter is sickeningly
> sweet.
>
> Now, if I can diabetic peanut butter with just a bit more salt, and
> *crunchy* -- actually with nuts in -- I'll be a happy man. The no salt,
> no sugar stuff I'm eating now isn't bad, it *tastes like peanuts* (which
> the other stuff doesn't), but a bit of salt would make it better.

Just checked the normal peanut butter in my cupboard, and it clearly
says "no added sugar", and it's crunchy and salted. The idea of
sugaring peanut butter seems absurd to me.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:00:20 GMT, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> About a month ago I decided I deserved a treat, had a burger and fries
>> at a local fish and chip shop (i.e. *real* burger, not those weird
>> machine- shaped things, *proper* fries with the skin still on, etc.) and
>> a pint of Hermann's (local dark beer).
>
> Ah, fish & chips. The tradional NZ Friday dinner.

Depends how they're prepared, for me. The fish needs the right batter
and tartar sauce. I'm more likely to eat grilled fish than fried fish
most of the time, but fish and chips isn't right unless it's fried.

>> Now, if I can diabetic peanut butter with just a bit more salt, and
>> *crunchy* -- actually with nuts in -- I'll be a happy man. The no salt,
>> no sugar stuff I'm eating now isn't bad, it *tastes like peanuts* (which
>> the other stuff doesn't), but a bit of salt would make it better.
>
> Just checked the normal peanut butter in my cupboard, and it clearly
> says "no added sugar", and it's crunchy and salted. The idea of
> sugaring peanut butter seems absurd to me.

I blame the US for this one. It looks like most of their peanut butter
has sugar or corn syrup in it.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13

 

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Robert Huff wrote:
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
>> I don't eat burger-chain fast-food much, either. In fact,
>> until about a month ago I went without it for nearly a year. The thing
>> I noticed most when I bought a quarter-pounder after that gap was how
>> salty the thng was. The next thing was how much it relied on being
>> oily/fatty to give a sense of having eaten well. My main form of
>> 'fast-food' is pies.
>
>
> A bus stop I'm at regularly is about 100 feet down-wind of a
> McDonald's. It smells great (especially in winter) for about 15-20
> seconds ... and then the combination of cooking fats and heavy salt is
> enough to gag a hippo.

MMMmmmmm. Fat and salt.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/

 

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Sea Wasp wrote:

>> A bus stop I'm at regularly is about 100 feet down-wind of a
>> McDonald's. It smells great (especially in winter) for about 15-20
>> seconds ... and then the combination of cooking fats and heavy salt is
>> enough to gag a hippo.
>
>
> MMMmmmmm. Fat and salt.

I don't object to fat and salt - my comfort foods lie in that direction
- but this concentration and mix of flavors ... <sound of suppressed
retching>.


Robert Huff

 

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In article <ANednSE9F-on9s7fRVn-oQ@rcn.net>,
Robert Huff <roberthuff@rcn.com> wrote:
>Sea Wasp wrote:
>
>>> A bus stop I'm at regularly is about 100 feet down-wind of a
>>> McDonald's. It smells great (especially in winter) for about 15-20
>>> seconds ... and then the combination of cooking fats and heavy salt is
>>> enough to gag a hippo.
>> MMMmmmmm. Fat and salt.
> I don't object to fat and salt - my comfort foods lie in that direction
>- but this concentration and mix of flavors ... <sound of suppressed
>retching>.

The U. of Waterloo was about a mile from a brewery (one of the majors, but
I forget which one after 30+ years). When the wind was from the wrong
direction it was pretty hard to take.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

 

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David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote:
>
> The U. of Waterloo was about a mile from a brewery (one of the majors,
> but I forget which one after 30+ years). When the wind was from the
> wrong direction it was pretty hard to take.

Depends, I guess. I used to walk past a local brewery to get to and
from work. The smell was (usually) wonderful.

I suppose it depends on whether or not you like good beer and exactly
what processes are going on. And, probably, on the brewery. I suspect
that 'one of the majors' is both larger (more overpowering smell) and
nastier (hey, most of the majors *taste* bad, I can easily believe the
brewery *smells* bad). This was a brewery, so it tends to be at an
'acceptable' level.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13

 

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Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
> This was a brewery, so it tends to be at an 'acceptable' level.

"This was a smaller brewery", I meant.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13

 

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On 6 Apr 2005 18:52:21 GMT, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb)
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> The U. of Waterloo was about a mile from a brewery (one of the majors, but
> I forget which one after 30+ years). When the wind was from the wrong
> direction it was pretty hard to take.

The high school I went to was just across the road from the last tower
brewery in the country. Some days we'd be out of the fields in the
early morning, with the smell just sitting over them. Urrk.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 19:18:19 GMT, Keith Davies
<keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> I suppose it depends on whether or not you like good beer and exactly
> what processes are going on. And, probably, on the brewery. I suspect
> that 'one of the majors' is both larger (more overpowering smell) and
> nastier (hey, most of the majors *taste* bad, I can easily believe the
> brewery *smells* bad). This was a brewery, so it tends to be at an
> 'acceptable' level.

The smell from ours was vaguely like rotten, burnt carrots. I presume
it was from something horrible being done to hops.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 19:18:19 GMT, Keith Davies
><keith.davies@kjdavies.org> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> I suppose it depends on whether or not you like good beer and exactly
>> what processes are going on. And, probably, on the brewery. I suspect
>> that 'one of the majors' is both larger (more overpowering smell) and
>> nastier (hey, most of the majors *taste* bad, I can easily believe the
>> brewery *smells* bad). This was a brewery, so it tends to be at an
>> 'acceptable' level.
>
> The smell from ours was vaguely like rotten, burnt carrots. I presume
> it was from something horrible being done to hops.

The only time I noticed this one, it was a nice barley smell.

Of course, it may have been just the times that I was passing by --
there were two regular times, in the morning going in and the afternoon
coming home. They may have been making a hideous stench at night, or
during the day while I was at work.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13

 

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On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 11:15:10 +1200, Rupert Boleyn
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:45:15 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Yes, but there are amazingly powerful dragons at much smaller sizes
>> than we
>> would prefer.
>
> You need to cleanse yourself of second edition thinking, is what you
> need to do.

Heh. He needs to cleanse himself of CR is what he needs to do. ;-p

--
In an old 1E campaign I played in, there was this half-dwarf, half-orc
character. They called him a dorc. -Solomoriah