When Wyverns Attack! was Re: PCs out of Balance - Need som..

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Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 00:20:31 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz>
> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>
>> Beware that Wyverns are pretty nasty opponents for CR 6, or at
>>least have been IME; always carrying someone off into the sky and
>>dropping them when they get fidgety. Not a great many hit points
>>though.
>
> I've managed that _once_, and I had to use advanced wyverns with lots
> more hit dice. Normal wyverns tend to get blown away by the archers
> and wizards before they can close.

The Party likely to face Wyverns:

Level 4 Barbarian -
20 strength, AC 18, 70 HP, using a +3 great sword (2d6)

Level 4 Ranger (Archer Specialist)
17 Dex, AC 18, 50 HP, using stength bow +2

Level 5 Wizard (Blaster Type)
20 Int, AC 11, 19 HP, Always has one Lightning Bolt and three
Magic Missiles memorized

Level 5 Cleric (Healer Type)
No Stats worth mentioning, AC 17, 30 HP, using a Mace
Rarely has much aside from standard party buffs prepared

The Wyvern:
59 hp, AC 18
Attack: Sting +10 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) or talon +10 melee (2d6+4)
or bite +10 melee (2d8+4)
Full Attack: Sting +10 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) and bite +8 melee
(2d8+4) and 2 wings +8 melee (1d8+2) and 2 talons +8 melee (2d6+4)
Special Attacks: Poison, improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to sleep and paralysis,
low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +6
Feats: Ability Focus (poison), Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack
Challenge Rating: 6

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a wyvern must hit with its
talons. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without
provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it
establishes a hold and stings.

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 17, initial and secondary damage 2d6
Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.




Round Zero: The Wyvern(s) fly overhead and notice the party. Assume
the party notices them back.

Round One:
Wizard unleashes a lightning bolt, dishing out around 18 damage, which
they save on half the time, so call it 12. Ranger fires off a couple
arrows, hits with one per round on average, doing about 6 damage
(4.5+2)... Total this round: 18 of 59.

Wyvern choose a target and tries to Grab it.

Wyverns are supposedly quite stupid, but, at this point, who would you,
the Wyvern, try to snatch?

 

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"David Serhienko" <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote in message
news:114q175kupf00a3@corp.supernews.com...
> Round Zero: The Wyvern(s) fly overhead and notice the party. Assume the
> party notices them back.
>
> Round One:
> Wizard unleashes a lightning bolt, dishing out around 18 damage, which
> they save on half the time, so call it 12. Ranger fires off a couple
> arrows, hits with one per round on average, doing about 6 damage
> (4.5+2)... Total this round: 18 of 59.
>
> Wyvern choose a target and tries to Grab it.
>
> Wyverns are supposedly quite stupid, but, at this point, who would you,
> the Wyvern, try to snatch?

If they hadn't escaped by now as others might have mentioned, I would have
them snatch at any less armored foes first.
The reason being, it is a bit harder to get at the juicy bits if there are
plates of metal in your way, even if you are strong enough to break through
them.

Failing that, you always want to get back at the person that hurts you the
most first, you strike out at the source of pain to end said pain.

 

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On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 02:29:08 -0600, David Serhienko
<david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote:

>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 00:20:31 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz>
> > carved upon a tablet of ether:
> >
> >
> >> Beware that Wyverns are pretty nasty opponents for CR 6, or at
> >>least have been IME; always carrying someone off into the sky and
> >>dropping them when they get fidgety. Not a great many hit points
> >>though.
> >
> > I've managed that _once_, and I had to use advanced wyverns with lots
> > more hit dice. Normal wyverns tend to get blown away by the archers
> > and wizards before they can close.
>
>The Party likely to face Wyverns:
>
>Level 4 Barbarian -
>20 strength, AC 18, 70 HP, using a +3 great sword (2d6)
>
>Level 4 Ranger (Archer Specialist)
>17 Dex, AC 18, 50 HP, using stength bow +2
>
>Level 5 Wizard (Blaster Type)
>20 Int, AC 11, 19 HP, Always has one Lightning Bolt and three
>Magic Missiles memorized
>
>Level 5 Cleric (Healer Type)
>No Stats worth mentioning, AC 17, 30 HP, using a Mace
>Rarely has much aside from standard party buffs prepared
>
>The Wyvern:
>59 hp, AC 18
>Attack: Sting +10 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) or talon +10 melee (2d6+4)
>or bite +10 melee (2d8+4)
>Full Attack: Sting +10 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) and bite +8 melee
>(2d8+4) and 2 wings +8 melee (1d8+2) and 2 talons +8 melee (2d6+4)
>Special Attacks: Poison, improved grab
>Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to sleep and paralysis,
>low-light vision, scent
>Saves: Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +6
>Feats: Ability Focus (poison), Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack
>Challenge Rating: 6
>
>Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a wyvern must hit with its
>talons. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without
>provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it
>establishes a hold and stings.
>
>Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 17, initial and secondary damage 2d6
>Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.
>
>
>
>
>Round Zero: The Wyvern(s) fly overhead and notice the party. Assume
>the party notices them back.
>
>Round One:
>Wizard unleashes a lightning bolt, dishing out around 18 damage, which
>they save on half the time, so call it 12. Ranger fires off a couple
>arrows, hits with one per round on average, doing about 6 damage
>(4.5+2)... Total this round: 18 of 59.
>
>Wyvern choose a target and tries to Grab it.
>
>Wyverns are supposedly quite stupid, but, at this point, who would you,
>the Wyvern, try to snatch?

I'd fly away and heal up. That food is too dangerous! Really for
that kind of pounce and snatch manuever, you need the advantage of
surprise.

 

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David Serhienko wrote:

> Level 4 Barbarian -
> 20 strength, AC 18, 70 HP, using a +3 great sword (2d6)

That's an awful lot of HP at 4th level. Assuming an 18 CON (+4), I'd
expect an average of 16 (1st level max) + 3 x (6.5+4) = 47.5 at 4th
level, maybe another +4 with Improved Toughhness for 51.5. Or are you
giving max hp? Hm, even with max hp it would be (12+4) x 4 = 64 +
Toughness mods.

AC 16 when raging? Get those archers in!

> Level 4 Ranger (Archer Specialist)
> 17 Dex, AC 18, 50 HP, using stength bow +2
>
> Level 5 Wizard (Blaster Type)
> 20 Int, AC 11, 19 HP, Always has one Lightning Bolt and three
> Magic Missiles memorized
>
> Level 5 Cleric (Healer Type)
> No Stats worth mentioning, AC 17, 30 HP, using a Mace
> Rarely has much aside from standard party buffs prepared

Hm, looks like everyone else has about average hp. This seems a bit odd
to me. Have I missed something?

cheers,

Mark

 

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Mark Buckley wrote:
>
>
> David Serhienko wrote:
>
>> Level 4 Barbarian -
>> 20 strength, AC 18, 70 HP, using a +3 great sword (2d6)
>
>
> That's an awful lot of HP at 4th level. Assuming an 18 CON (+4), I'd
> expect an average of 16 (1st level max) + 3 x (6.5+4) = 47.5 at 4th
> level, maybe another +4 with Improved Toughhness for 51.5. Or are you
> giving max hp? Hm, even with max hp it would be (12+4) x 4 = 64 +
> Toughness mods.

Ah, I see in your other post that he's 5th level, ok that adds another
10.5, and the +10 for raging could get him to about 70, fair enough.

Mark

 

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On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 02:29:08 -0600, David Serhienko
<david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> scribed into the ether:


>Round Zero: The Wyvern(s) fly overhead and notice the party. Assume
>the party notices them back.
>
>Round One:
>Wizard unleashes a lightning bolt, dishing out around 18 damage, which
>they save on half the time, so call it 12. Ranger fires off a couple
>arrows, hits with one per round on average, doing about 6 damage
>(4.5+2)... Total this round: 18 of 59.
>
>Wyvern choose a target and tries to Grab it.
>
>Wyverns are supposedly quite stupid, but, at this point, who would you,
>the Wyvern, try to snatch?

Even s tupid animals have a sense of self preservation, and as mentioned in
the "let's beat on jeff" thread on lions, predators are fairly
timid...fliers all the more so since it is a lot easier to be disabled as a
flier. After taking that kind of punishment before even reaching someone,
most any animal would flee, unless it was strongly motivated otherwise (if
the party were closing in on its nest, or it were starving, or under
control of something more powerful).

 

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Mark Buckley wrote:
>
>
> Mark Buckley wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> David Serhienko wrote:
>>
>>> Level 4 Barbarian -
>>> 20 strength, AC 18, 70 HP, using a +3 great sword (2d6)
>>
>>
>>
>> That's an awful lot of HP at 4th level. Assuming an 18 CON (+4), I'd
>> expect an average of 16 (1st level max) + 3 x (6.5+4) = 47.5 at 4th
>> level, maybe another +4 with Improved Toughhness for 51.5. Or are you
>> giving max hp? Hm, even with max hp it would be (12+4) x 4 = 64 +
>> Toughness mods.
>
>
> Ah, I see in your other post that he's 5th level, ok that adds another
> 10.5, and the +10 for raging could get him to about 70, fair enough.

Right. I forgot the Barb just leveled up... I'm used to thinking of him
as lvl 4.

 

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David Johnston wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 02:29:08 -0600, David Serhienko
> <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 00:20:31 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz>
>>>carved upon a tablet of ether:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Beware that Wyverns are pretty nasty opponents for CR 6, or at
>>>>least have been IME; always carrying someone off into the sky and
>>>>dropping them when they get fidgety. Not a great many hit points
>>>>though.
>>>
>>>I've managed that _once_, and I had to use advanced wyverns with lots
>>>more hit dice. Normal wyverns tend to get blown away by the archers
>>>and wizards before they can close.
>>
>>The Party likely to face Wyverns:
>>
>>Level 4 Barbarian -
>>20 strength, AC 18, 70 HP, using a +3 great sword (2d6)
>>
>>Level 4 Ranger (Archer Specialist)
>>17 Dex, AC 18, 50 HP, using stength bow +2
>>
>>Level 5 Wizard (Blaster Type)
>>20 Int, AC 11, 19 HP, Always has one Lightning Bolt and three
>>Magic Missiles memorized
>>
>>Level 5 Cleric (Healer Type)
>>No Stats worth mentioning, AC 17, 30 HP, using a Mace
>>Rarely has much aside from standard party buffs prepared
>>
>>The Wyvern:
>>59 hp, AC 18
>>Attack: Sting +10 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) or talon +10 melee (2d6+4)
>>or bite +10 melee (2d8+4)
>>Full Attack: Sting +10 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) and bite +8 melee
>>(2d8+4) and 2 wings +8 melee (1d8+2) and 2 talons +8 melee (2d6+4)
>>Special Attacks: Poison, improved grab
>>Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to sleep and paralysis,
>>low-light vision, scent
>>Saves: Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +6
>>Feats: Ability Focus (poison), Alertness, Flyby Attack, Multiattack
>>Challenge Rating: 6
>>
>>Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a wyvern must hit with its
>>talons. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without
>>provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it
>>establishes a hold and stings.
>>
>>Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 17, initial and secondary damage 2d6
>>Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Round Zero: The Wyvern(s) fly overhead and notice the party. Assume
>>the party notices them back.
>>
>>Round One:
>>Wizard unleashes a lightning bolt, dishing out around 18 damage, which
>>they save on half the time, so call it 12. Ranger fires off a couple
>>arrows, hits with one per round on average, doing about 6 damage
>>(4.5+2)... Total this round: 18 of 59.
>>
>>Wyvern choose a target and tries to Grab it.
>>
>>Wyverns are supposedly quite stupid, but, at this point, who would you,
>>the Wyvern, try to snatch?
>
>
> I'd fly away and heal up. That food is too dangerous! Really for
> that kind of pounce and snatch manuever, you need the advantage of
> surprise.

Fair enough. Ok. So, I make use of their high spot and hide (in/enar
clouds?) skills and try to make a surprise round attack.

If they nail it like this, my Wyvern splits.

DWS

 

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Matt Frisch wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 02:29:08 -0600, David Serhienko
> <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> scribed into the ether:
>
>
>
>>Round Zero: The Wyvern(s) fly overhead and notice the party. Assume
>>the party notices them back.
>>
>>Round One:
>>Wizard unleashes a lightning bolt, dishing out around 18 damage, which
>>they save on half the time, so call it 12. Ranger fires off a couple
>>arrows, hits with one per round on average, doing about 6 damage
>>(4.5+2)... Total this round: 18 of 59.
>>
>>Wyvern choose a target and tries to Grab it.
>>
>>Wyverns are supposedly quite stupid, but, at this point, who would you,
>>the Wyvern, try to snatch?
>
>
> Even s tupid animals have a sense of self preservation, and as mentioned in
> the "let's beat on jeff" thread on lions, predators are fairly
> timid...fliers all the more so since it is a lot easier to be disabled as a
> flier. After taking that kind of punishment before even reaching someone,
> most any animal would flee, unless it was strongly motivated otherwise (if
> the party were closing in on its nest, or it were starving, or under
> control of something more powerful).

Right. I take your point. I almost always have my wolf packs and
whatnot (natural predators) flee when faced with any real resistance. I
tend to play mega-fauna predators like wyverns, or dire anything as far
more aggressive.

So, given a big 'stay away from me' smack by the party, if it thnks it
can get away with it, the Wyvern tries a grab on a pack mule (seems the
easiest) and bails before the Two-Legs can do this this again!

 

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Decaying Atheist wrote:
> "David Serhienko" <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote in message
> news:114q175kupf00a3@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>Round Zero: The Wyvern(s) fly overhead and notice the party. Assume the
>>party notices them back.
>>
>>Round One:
>>Wizard unleashes a lightning bolt, dishing out around 18 damage, which
>>they save on half the time, so call it 12. Ranger fires off a couple
>>arrows, hits with one per round on average, doing about 6 damage
>>(4.5+2)... Total this round: 18 of 59.
>>
>>Wyvern choose a target and tries to Grab it.
>>
>>Wyverns are supposedly quite stupid, but, at this point, who would you,
>>the Wyvern, try to snatch?
>
>
> If they hadn't escaped by now as others might have mentioned, I would have
> them snatch at any less armored foes first.

Wyverns are technically Dragon typed, with an Int rating of 6, which is
the same as a stock Ogre, so, yeah... as predators seeking food, they'd
target the unarmored, the small, and the non-humanoid.

Thus, the pack mules first, I'd think, then the halfling sorceress or
the elf wizard.

> The reason being, it is a bit harder to get at the juicy bits if there are
> plates of metal in your way, even if you are strong enough to break through
> them.
>
> Failing that, you always want to get back at the person that hurts you the
> most first, you strike out at the source of pain to end said pain.

The elf wizard =-) Go Ansar and your 19 HP! Actually, if I'm running
this enounter, it means I'm DMing that night, which means Ansar won't be
there, most likely. So the Ranger will be the parties most effective
anti-wyvern artillery.

DWS

 

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"David Serhienko" <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote in message
news:114ro0kgq0agf2e@corp.supernews.com...
> >> Level 4 Barbarian -
> >> 20 strength, AC 18, 70 HP, using a +3 great sword (2d6)

I just noticed this, a +3 magical weapon at 4th level??? Our guys haven't
even SEEN a +3 weapon, let alone actually managed to procure one!! If this
continues linearly, at 10th level, they'll have +7, maybe +8 weapons!

Why does a 4th level barbarian have a +3 sword? Surely someone would happen
by, see the fantasmo sword and want to take it for himself, yes? A bigger,
stronger fighting type, perhaps? There's nothing quite like the old "rival
party" to rid the party of such niceties...

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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Jeff Goslin wrote:
> "David Serhienko" <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote in message
> news:114ro0kgq0agf2e@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>>>Level 4 Barbarian -
>>>>20 strength, AC 18, 70 HP, using a +3 great sword (2d6)
>
>
> I just noticed this, a +3 magical weapon at 4th level??? Our guys haven't
> even SEEN a +3 weapon, let alone actually managed to procure one!! If this
> continues linearly, at 10th level, they'll have +7, maybe +8 weapons!
>
> Why does a 4th level barbarian have a +3 sword? Surely someone would happen
> by, see the fantasmo sword and want to take it for himself, yes? A bigger,
> stronger fighting type, perhaps? There's nothing quite like the old "rival
> party" to rid the party of such niceties...
>

Typo(s). As I mentioned in the pervious thread, the Barb is actually
level 5, and the sword is +2.

 

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On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 02:29:08 -0600, David Serhienko
<david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Round Zero: The Wyvern(s) fly overhead and notice the party. Assume
> the party notices them back.
>
> Round One:
> Wizard unleashes a lightning bolt, dishing out around 18 damage, which
> they save on half the time, so call it 12. Ranger fires off a couple
> arrows, hits with one per round on average, doing about 6 damage
> (4.5+2)... Total this round: 18 of 59.
>
> Wyvern choose a target and tries to Grab it.
>
> Wyverns are supposedly quite stupid, but, at this point, who would you,
> the Wyvern, try to snatch?

Well, I'd assume a higher flight altitude than this seems to - hawks
and eagles fly high up so they can see a lot of ground at once. That
means the wyvern sees the party and attempts to guess where they're
headed. It then flies off out of sight and drops to a low altitude,
and only then does it approach. If the party didn't see it it can
surprise them.

Of course if they did see it, and realised what was up it'll get a
nasty surprise itself.

I can't remember if it's legal (in terms of grabbing and carrying off
a large creature), but if it is, the wyvern would probably go for a
horse if the party has any - more meat on them.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 02:29:08 -0600, David Serhienko
> <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>
>>Round Zero: The Wyvern(s) fly overhead and notice the party. Assume
>>the party notices them back.
>>
>>Round One:
>>Wizard unleashes a lightning bolt, dishing out around 18 damage, which
>>they save on half the time, so call it 12. Ranger fires off a couple
>>arrows, hits with one per round on average, doing about 6 damage
>>(4.5+2)... Total this round: 18 of 59.
>>
>>Wyvern choose a target and tries to Grab it.
>>
>>Wyverns are supposedly quite stupid, but, at this point, who would you,
>>the Wyvern, try to snatch?
>
>
> Well, I'd assume a higher flight altitude than this seems to - hawks
> and eagles fly high up so they can see a lot of ground at once. That
> means the wyvern sees the party and attempts to guess where they're
> headed. It then flies off out of sight and drops to a low altitude,
> and only then does it approach. If the party didn't see it it can
> surprise them.
>
> Of course if they did see it, and realised what was up it'll get a
> nasty surprise itself.
>
> I can't remember if it's legal (in terms of grabbing and carrying off
> a large creature), but if it is, the wyvern would probably go for a
> horse if the party has any - more meat on them.

Good point. The SRD says the Wyvern is also Large. I wouldn't think
it'd be able to carry away anything its size category. If I make it
Huge, then I also make it (by RAW plus inference) CR 7-9.

Is Huge enough to carry of medium size? I'd say so. That means attacks
on the pack mules are back on!

DWS

 

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David Serhienko wrote:
> Good point. The SRD says the Wyvern is also Large. I wouldn't think
> it'd be able to carry away anything its size category. If I make it
> Huge, then I also make it (by RAW plus inference) CR 7-9.
>
> Is Huge enough to carry of medium size? I'd say so. That means attacks
> on the pack mules are back on!

Riding dogs too, if there are any small people around.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 16:32:13 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> They're *really* scary in pairs though. One can play wounded to
> draw out the meleers, the other can then be called in from cover to
> attack the juicy stuff at the back, hehehe.

Favourite wyvern attack was by a couple of advanced wvyerns, and it
started by one flying overhead with a large net filled with fist-sized
rocks. This didn't do much damage, but it scared the heck out of the
party's pack animals.

The wyverns then dived to the attack, at which point it started going
badly for them, with the first one in getting blown away before it
even made contact (it's body flattened one of the PCs and wasted a
horse or two, though). The second one did better, and managed to grab
the paladin's mount (it being the biggest meal around) unfortunately
for it, as it flew off the mount then got 'unsummoned', and then it
too was blown away.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> typed:

>Round Zero: The Wyvern(s) fly overhead and notice the party. Assume
>the party notices them back.

Try it at night. It has darkvision, they don't (except the absent
wizard). Any meaningful reading of that implies that it'll get the
drop on them, presumably swooping in for an in-and-out dive. It does
have Flyby Attack after all.

>Wyverns are supposedly quite stupid, but, at this point, who would you,
>the Wyvern, try to snatch?

Depends what the people are wearing. I'd avoid anything that looked
armoured, but if I can't see chainmail under a cloak, I won't know.
Otherwise a mule.


--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org

 

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Jim Davies wrote:
> David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> typed:
>
>
>>Round Zero: The Wyvern(s) fly overhead and notice the party. Assume
>>the party notices them back.
>
>
> Try it at night. It has darkvision, they don't (except the absent
> wizard). Any meaningful reading of that implies that it'll get the
> drop on them, presumably swooping in for an in-and-out dive. It does
> have Flyby Attack after all.

Exactly. They won't be expecting that.

>>Wyverns are supposedly quite stupid, but, at this point, who would you,
>>the Wyvern, try to snatch?
>
> Depends what the people are wearing. I'd avoid anything that looked
> armoured, but if I can't see chainmail under a cloak, I won't know.
> Otherwise a mule.

Wyverns have Int 6, if Think, which is about the same as an Ogre =) So,
yeah, it ought to know what an archetypical wizard type would look like....

They'd be most dangerous to a Wyvern than anyone else, as well as the
least armored.

DWS