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help on Sage build

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Anonymous
April 6, 2005 12:10:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

This is a build for a venerable grey elf sage (wizard), where my goal was
maximizing Int and Int-related skills. His stats are based on the same points
(25) as the elite array. The +2 on race makes up for the loss of +1
skill/level for human.

At venerable age, he gets -6 per physical ability (min 1:D MG) and +3 per
mental ability. Since these Int increases affect skill points, I had to
decide at what age he levels. The simplest is to assume he reaches level 20
by middle age, so age-related ability boosts don't affect skill points. Less
credible is assuming all his leveling up happens after reaching venerable age,
which gives an extra skill point per level at level 1-3, and 2/level at level
4 and above (so he *could* be even more of an Int munchkin). I gave him the
tome at level 16, the first level where its cost was about half the total
value of his treasure.

I could have made him an expert for +4 skills/level but didn't want to lose
the nifty spells. The wizard sage, with elven lifetime, can learn just about
any spell s/he wants.

Str 1= min[8-2(race)-6(age), 1]
Dex 2= 8-6(age)
Con 2= 8-6(age)
Int 40=18+2(race)+4(levels)+5(tome at 16th level)+6(headband of
Int)+3(age)+2(ioun stone)
Wis 26=14+3(age)+1(levels)+6(periapt of wisdom)+2(ioun stone)
Cha 24=13+3(age)+6(cloak of charisma)+2(ioun stone)

Skill points: [28/lvl 1, 7/lvl 2-7, 8/lvl 8-15, 11/lvl 16-19, 12/lvl 20]

As a sage he would invest in knowledge skills; as a mage he needs Spellcraft.
As a non-adventurer he might want Profession -- though that skill doesn't need
to be high. Since he would be consulted a lot I think he also needs Sense
Motive (even though it's cross-class). Is there a feat somewhere that adds
some skills to your class list? I have some vague memory of such a feat but
can't recall where I saw it. I'd like to have a choice to add a few Wis or
Cha skills. Even untrained, a Wis-based skill would be +7.

A typical knowlege skill maintained from first level would be 24 ranks + 15
Int mod = 39. Thus he is guaranteed to make a DC 40 skill roll, or DC 50 if
he can take 10 (which would be most of the time). These are even tougher than
the DC 30 "really tough questions" mentioned in the SRD.

Magic:
tome of clear thought 137,500
headband of intellect 36,000
periapt of wisdom 36,000
cloak of charisma 36,000
ioun stones (I,W,Ch) 24,000 8000*3

plus 514,500 in other gear. He could conceivably invest 36,000*3 and 8,000*3
in the other ability boosters, taking physical skills to 9/10/10. I'm
wondering what else is worthwhile?

He probably needs to invest in a home; it would be in character to have a
personal library, and someone as infirm as this probably needs followers to
take care of him and keep nuisances away. So I think he would take the
Leadership feat for his last feat before settling down at 18th-20th level.
His leadership store is 20+7(cha)+2(great reknown as a sage)=29, he gets a
17th level cohort, 135 1st-level followers, 13 2nd, 7 3rd, 4 4th, 2 5th, and 2
6th.

I'm not sure what to pick for the other feats. Various "Craft magical item"
feats make sense for many mages, but as a retired adventurer he might not want
to use them too much because of the XP cost. Unless there is some way for him
to still adventure despite his frailties...

One of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books, "The Spell Sword", had a sword
with the magical property that someone without sword skill could take the
sword, and someone else with the Alton gift (mental coercion) could "take
over" and fight using the first character's body, but his/her own skill
levels. Accompanying this was the ability to see through the wielder's eyes
and hear through his/her eyes. This suggested to me another possibility: an
item that lets the sage see and hear through someone's senses, but allows
him/her to talk to the item's bearer. Adventurers might be glad of having an
on-call advisor whose Knowledge skills are broad enough to identify most wierd
monsters. This might permit him to earn enough XP to make up for what he
would lose in making items.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

More about : sage build

Anonymous
April 6, 2005 12:10:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Alex Lamb wrote:

> Int 40=18+2(race)+4(levels)+5(tome at 16th level)+6(headband of
> Int)+3(age)+2(ioun stone)
> Wis 26=14+3(age)+1(levels)+6(periapt of wisdom)+2(ioun stone)
> Cha 24=13+3(age)+6(cloak of charisma)+2(ioun stone)

Ioun Stones and the other items (except the tome) are all enhancement
bonuses, they don't stack.

DougL
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 12:10:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Alex Lamb wrote:
> This is a build for a venerable grey elf sage (wizard), where my goal
was
> maximizing Int and Int-related skills. His stats are based on the
same points
> (25) as the elite array. The +2 on race makes up for the loss of +1
> skill/level for human.

You might want to take three levels of Elf Paragon from Unearthed
Arcana. You lose a caster level, but gain +2 Int, +6 HP (on average),
and a few assorted perks.

Or, you might want to get completely disgusting and munchkin your way
to unbelievable skill bonuses. You'll be a less effective wizard, but
you'll be the wisest sage in all the land. The Diplomacy build I posted
a couple of months ago was popular enough; I could probably see if I
can do something similar for this character.

Laszlo
Related resources
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 12:10:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Alex Lamb wrote:
> This is a build for a venerable grey elf sage (wizard), where my goal
was
> maximizing Int and Int-related skills. His stats are based on the
same points

> At venerable age, he gets -6 per physical ability (min 1:D MG) and +3
per
> mental ability. Since these Int increases affect skill points, I had
to
> decide at what age he levels. The simplest is to assume he reaches
level 20
> by middle age, so age-related ability boosts don't affect skill
points. Less
> credible is assuming all his leveling up happens after reaching
venerable age,
> which gives an extra skill point per level at level 1-3, and 2/level
at level
> 4 and above (so he *could* be even more of an Int munchkin). I gave
him the
> tome at level 16, the first level where its cost was about half the
total
> value of his treasure.
>

The Tome is slightly overpriced for a wizard of that lv., give him a
scroll of wish and save 3 or 4k.

> I could have made him an expert for +4 skills/level but didn't want
to lose
> the nifty spells. The wizard sage, with elven lifetime, can learn
just about
> any spell s/he wants.
>
> Str 1= min[8-2(race)-6(age), 1]
> Dex 2= 8-6(age)
> Con 2= 8-6(age)
> Int 40=18+2(race)+4(levels)+5(tome at 16th level)+6(headband of
> Int)+3(age)+2(ioun stone)
> Wis 26=14+3(age)+1(levels)+6(periapt of wisdom)+2(ioun stone)
> Cha 24=13+3(age)+6(cloak of charisma)+2(ioun stone)
>
> Skill points: [28/lvl 1, 7/lvl 2-7, 8/lvl 8-15, 11/lvl 16-19, 12/lvl
20]
>
> As a sage he would invest in knowledge skills; as a mage he needs
Spellcraft.
> As a non-adventurer he might want Profession -- though that skill
doesn't need
> to be high. Since he would be consulted a lot I think he also needs
Sense
> Motive (even though it's cross-class). Is there a feat somewhere
that adds
> some skills to your class list? I have some vague memory of such a
feat but
> can't recall where I saw it.

I've seen it in 3rd party, but never official. I allowed it in my game
but immediately regretted it, it can play havoc with PRC prerequisites.
There's a nifty feat IIRC in Complete adventurer which makes all
knowledge skills untrained for you, so actually get a roll on
knowledges that are over 10.

> I'd like to have a choice to add a few Wis or
> Cha skills. Even untrained, a Wis-based skill would be +7.
>
> A typical knowlege skill maintained from first level would be 24
ranks + 15
> Int mod = 39. Thus he is guaranteed to make a DC 40 skill roll, or
DC 50 if
> he can take 10 (which would be most of the time). These are even
tougher than
> the DC 30 "really tough questions" mentioned in the SRD.
>
> Magic:
> tome of clear thought 137,500
> headband of intellect 36,000
> periapt of wisdom 36,000
> cloak of charisma 36,000
> ioun stones (I,W,Ch) 24,000 8000*3
>

Ioun stones don't stack with the Headband etc, they are all enhancement
bonuses.
>
> He probably needs to invest in a home; it would be in character to
have a
> personal library, and someone as infirm as this probably needs
followers to
> take care of him and keep nuisances away. So I think he would take
the
> Leadership feat for his last feat before settling down at 18th-20th
level.
> His leadership store is 20+7(cha)+2(great reknown as a sage)=29, he
gets a
> 17th level cohort, 135 1st-level followers, 13 2nd, 7 3rd, 4 4th, 2
5th, and 2
> 6th.
>

So he's going to have his own army? Seems odd to me.

I also notice you haven't mentioned any loremaster levels. He's not
really a sagely wizard unless he's got lots of loremaster levels...

- Justisaur
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 2:48:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Alex Lamb wrote:
> This is a build for a venerable grey elf sage (wizard), where my goal was
> maximizing Int and Int-related skills. His stats are based on the same points
> (25) as the elite array. The +2 on race makes up for the loss of +1
> skill/level for human.
>
> At venerable age, he gets -6 per physical ability (min 1:D MG) and +3 per
> mental ability. Since these Int increases affect skill points, I had to
> decide at what age he levels. The simplest is to assume he reaches level 20
> by middle age, so age-related ability boosts don't affect skill points.

I had a question asked of me the other day by a guy in our group about
how much xp non-adventuring types earn.

If you're interested in the logic I used to get there, I'd be happy to
give it to you, but I came up with (on shaky grounds) three
semi-plausible values: 1, 10 and 30 xp/day, depending on the
assumptions I used.

Personally, I like 1 xp/day best. It is the lowest you can grant
without resorting to time periods larger than a day. Assuming
Earth-like years, it results in level 10 by Age 123 or so. An Elf is
the longest lived core race, and has a Maximum Age of Venerable(350) +
4d100, so around 550 years old. At 1 xp/day, we get 200000 xp or so
(level 19).

That feels right for my game. Even the longest lived race can't QUITE
reach maximum 'core' level without adventuring, in the average expected
case.

DWS
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 4:16:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <1112735574.989710.274570@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
DougL <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote:
>David Alex Lamb wrote:
>
>> Int 40=18+2(race)+4(levels)+5(tome at 16th level)+6(headband of
>> Int)+3(age)+2(ioun stone)
>> Wis 26=14+3(age)+1(levels)+6(periapt of wisdom)+2(ioun stone)
>> Cha 24=13+3(age)+6(cloak of charisma)+2(ioun stone)
>
>Ioun Stones and the other items (except the tome) are all enhancement
>bonuses, they don't stack.

Rats. I guess I *still* haven't internalized "check the bonus types". Well,
that brings him down slightly -- I/W/Ch would then be 38, 24, 22 by skipping
the ioun stones.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 4:19:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <1112739053.506953.39730@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
<laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote:
>
>David Alex Lamb wrote:
>> This is a build for a venerable grey elf sage (wizard), where my goal
>was
>> maximizing Int and Int-related skills. His stats are based on the
>same points
>> (25) as the elite array. The +2 on race makes up for the loss of +1
>> skill/level for human.
>
>You might want to take three levels of Elf Paragon from Unearthed
>Arcana. You lose a caster level, but gain +2 Int, +6 HP (on average),
>and a few assorted perks.

Haven't cracked open UA for a while -- I'll go look at it.

>Or, you might want to get completely disgusting and munchkin your way
>to unbelievable skill bonuses. You'll be a less effective wizard, but
>you'll be the wisest sage in all the land. The Diplomacy build I posted
>a couple of months ago was popular enough; I could probably see if I
>can do something similar for this character.

I'd like to see it. I'm unlikely to think of more than a couple of the ideas
you wind up using.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 4:27:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <1112741034.869548.325740@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>The Tome is slightly overpriced for a wizard of that lv., give him a
>scroll of wish and save 3 or 4k.

I'll take a look -- thanks.

> There's a nifty feat IIRC in Complete adventurer which makes all
>knowledge skills untrained for you, so actually get a roll on
>knowledges that are over 10.

I'll take a look at it. Since Wizards get all knowledge skills as class
skills, he'd only need this for knowledge skills he omitted -- like perhaps
knowledge(architecture). It could be worth it if there were several such
skills, but seems a bit expensive if there is only 1 (or maybe even 2).
>
>Ioun stones don't stack with the Headband etc, they are all enhancement
>bonuses.

Thanks -- will fix.

>> Leadership feat for his last feat before settling down at 18th-20th evel.
>> His leadership store is 20+7(cha)+2(great reknown as a sage)=29, he gets a
>> 17th level cohort, 135 1st-level followers, 13 2nd, 7 3rd, 4 4th, 2 5th,
>> and 2 6th.
>>
>
>So he's going to have his own army? Seems odd to me.

He's entitled to all those but doesn't have to take them all. He's meant to
be a non-adventurer at this stage of his life, so all these low-level
"servants" make more sense than for an adventuring character, where the
followers would all die fast.

>I also notice you haven't mentioned any loremaster levels. He's not
>really a sagely wizard unless he's got lots of loremaster levels...

I thought about that. Loremaster gets some different class skills, which
might make sense if I planned out the skills in detail. I wasn't so sure I
liked most of the "secrets" but I should really look closely at what he'd give
up to get them.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 4:27:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Alex Lamb wrote:
> In article <1112741034.869548.325740@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>> David Alex Lamb wrote:

>>>Leadership feat for his last feat before settling down at 18th-20th evel.
>>>His leadership store is 20+7(cha)+2(great reknown as a sage)=29, he gets a
>>>17th level cohort, 135 1st-level followers, 13 2nd, 7 3rd, 4 4th, 2 5th,
>>>and 2 6th.
>>>
>>
>>So he's going to have his own army? Seems odd to me.
>
>
> He's entitled to all those but doesn't have to take them all. He's meant to
> be a non-adventurer at this stage of his life, so all these low-level
> "servants" make more sense than for an adventuring character, where the
> followers would all die fast.

I can see the Wisest Sage in all the land having an Army of followers.
They just wouldn't necessarily be a military force of any sort.

All these leveled folks are people who recognize his great learning and
wisdom, and want to keep the miniutia of the mundane world from taking
up his time.

He'd have a cadre of types who've dedicated themselves to protecting the
great man from having his knowledge coerced away from him. Some of them
may well have benefited from his wisdom in the past, and are so thankful
they've pledged their lives (and/or the lives of their sons and
daughters) to keep him safe).

You've got the obsessive learner sorts, mages, who would seek out the
knowledge this man has. They organize his libraries, write up his
research results, fetch his coffee, etc (see Grad Students).

Then there are those, of any class, who would do anything to associate
themselves with a Great Man. They might be the bulk of his followers.

DWS
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 2:18:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
news:D 2vadl$eg1$1@knot.queensu.ca...
> In article <1112741034.869548.325740@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>>The Tome is slightly overpriced for a wizard of that lv., give him a
>>scroll of wish and save 3 or 4k.
>
> I'll take a look -- thanks.
>
>> There's a nifty feat IIRC in Complete adventurer which makes all
>>knowledge skills untrained for you, so actually get a roll on
>>knowledges that are over 10.
>
> I'll take a look at it. Since Wizards get all knowledge skills as class
> skills, he'd only need this for knowledge skills he omitted -- like
> perhaps
> knowledge(architecture). It could be worth it if there were several such
> skills, but seems a bit expensive if there is only 1 (or maybe even 2).
>>
>>Ioun stones don't stack with the Headband etc, they are all enhancement
>>bonuses.
>
> Thanks -- will fix.
>
>>> Leadership feat for his last feat before settling down at 18th-20th
>>> evel.
>>> His leadership store is 20+7(cha)+2(great reknown as a sage)=29, he gets
>>> a
>>> 17th level cohort, 135 1st-level followers, 13 2nd, 7 3rd, 4 4th, 2 5th,
>>> and 2 6th.
>>>
>>
>>So he's going to have his own army? Seems odd to me.
>
> He's entitled to all those but doesn't have to take them all. He's meant
> to
> be a non-adventurer at this stage of his life, so all these low-level
> "servants" make more sense than for an adventuring character, where the
> followers would all die fast.
>
>>I also notice you haven't mentioned any loremaster levels. He's not
>>really a sagely wizard unless he's got lots of loremaster levels...
>
> I thought about that. Loremaster gets some different class skills,

....and an extra 2 skill points per level.

> which might make sense if I planned out the skills in detail. I wasn't so
> sure I
> liked most of the "secrets" but I should really look closely at what he'd
> give
> up to get them.

Taking the Loremaster levels is really a no-brainer. He *does* need three
Item Creation or Metamagic feats (Scribe Scroll and the bonus for Wiz5 will
take care of two of these, and if you take him to Wiz10 first, he will have
all three), as well as Skill Focus in any Knowledge skill. He gets Decipher
Script and Gather Information as class skills, which seems appropriate. Two
of the Secrets are very appropriate (4 free ranks in a skill, and a bonus
feat). The rest are just fluff for this character. The bonus languages are
pretty cool too.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 2:20:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Q4udnaTPaZZphMnfRVn-1A@comcast.com...
>
> "David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
> news:D 2vadl$eg1$1@knot.queensu.ca...
>> In article <1112741034.869548.325740@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
>> Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>The Tome is slightly overpriced for a wizard of that lv., give him a
>>>scroll of wish and save 3 or 4k.
>>
>> I'll take a look -- thanks.
>>
>>> There's a nifty feat IIRC in Complete adventurer which makes all
>>>knowledge skills untrained for you, so actually get a roll on
>>>knowledges that are over 10.
>>
>> I'll take a look at it. Since Wizards get all knowledge skills as class
>> skills, he'd only need this for knowledge skills he omitted -- like
>> perhaps
>> knowledge(architecture). It could be worth it if there were several such
>> skills, but seems a bit expensive if there is only 1 (or maybe even 2).
>>>
>>>Ioun stones don't stack with the Headband etc, they are all enhancement
>>>bonuses.
>>
>> Thanks -- will fix.
>>
>>>> Leadership feat for his last feat before settling down at 18th-20th
>>>> evel.
>>>> His leadership store is 20+7(cha)+2(great reknown as a sage)=29, he
>>>> gets a
>>>> 17th level cohort, 135 1st-level followers, 13 2nd, 7 3rd, 4 4th, 2
>>>> 5th,
>>>> and 2 6th.
>>>>
>>>
>>>So he's going to have his own army? Seems odd to me.
>>
>> He's entitled to all those but doesn't have to take them all. He's meant
>> to
>> be a non-adventurer at this stage of his life, so all these low-level
>> "servants" make more sense than for an adventuring character, where the
>> followers would all die fast.
>>
>>>I also notice you haven't mentioned any loremaster levels. He's not
>>>really a sagely wizard unless he's got lots of loremaster levels...
>>
>> I thought about that. Loremaster gets some different class skills,
>
> ...and an extra 2 skill points per level.
>
>> which might make sense if I planned out the skills in detail. I wasn't
>> so sure I
>> liked most of the "secrets" but I should really look closely at what he'd
>> give
>> up to get them.
>
> Taking the Loremaster levels is really a no-brainer. He *does* need three
> Item Creation or Metamagic feats (Scribe Scroll and the bonus for Wiz5
> will take care of two of these, and if you take him to Wiz10 first, he
> will have all three), as well as Skill Focus in any Knowledge skill. He
> gets Decipher Script and Gather Information as class skills, which seems
> appropriate. Two of the Secrets are very appropriate (4 free ranks in a
> skill, and a bonus feat). The rest are just fluff for this character.
> The bonus languages are pretty cool too.

Hell, in all my excitement, I forgot the Bardic Lore, as well as Identify at
will and Analyze Dweomer once per day.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 3:23:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Alex Lamb wrote:
> In article <1112735574.989710.274570@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> DougL <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote:

> >Ioun Stones and the other items (except the tome) are all
enhancement
> >bonuses, they don't stack.
>
> Rats. I guess I *still* haven't internalized "check the bonus
types". Well,
> that brings him down slightly -- I/W/Ch would then be 38, 24, 22 by
skipping
> the ioun stones.

Ability bonuses are easy to track, there is inherent from tomes and
wishes (and the tomes are just wish items that anyone can use and have
the purpose already set). There is Enhancement from items. There is
Size from anything that changes your size. (Which AFAIK only applies
to strength and con.)

And AFAIK that is IT from WotC sources. Nothing else gives a named
bonus to any ability. It seems to me that the designers were VERY
careful to restrict stacking on ability bonuses. If unsure assume
it's enhancement and doesn't stack is a fair rule for abilities.

BTW: Note that scrolls of wishes require a CL check to use if less
than level 17, but paying someone to cast the spell is even cheaper
than a scroll and is safe from that problem.

Theoretically the cheapest way to get the wishes is to wait till
level 17, cast two yourself, and get a noble djinni to cast the
other three, since his are spell-like they don't actually cost
him anything and you can probably make a deal ("OK, you have
captured me by loading me down with great big piles of gold, now
I must grant three wishes, drat"). Alternately you can use an
Efreeti, pay another caster, or make your own scrolls.

DougL
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 4:20:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Serhienko wrote:
> David Alex Lamb wrote:
> > This is a build for a venerable grey elf sage (wizard), where my
goal was
> > maximizing Int and Int-related skills. His stats are based on the
same points
> > (25) as the elite array. The +2 on race makes up for the loss of
+1
> > skill/level for human.
> >
> > At venerable age, he gets -6 per physical ability (min 1:D MG) and
+3 per
> > mental ability. Since these Int increases affect skill points, I
had to
> > decide at what age he levels. The simplest is to assume he reaches
level 20
> > by middle age, so age-related ability boosts don't affect skill
points.
>
> I had a question asked of me the other day by a guy in our group
about
> how much xp non-adventuring types earn.
>
> If you're interested in the logic I used to get there, I'd be happy
to
> give it to you, but I came up with (on shaky grounds) three
> semi-plausible values: 1, 10 and 30 xp/day, depending on the
> assumptions I used.
>
> Personally, I like 1 xp/day best. It is the lowest you can grant
> without resorting to time periods larger than a day. Assuming
> Earth-like years, it results in level 10 by Age 123 or so. An Elf is

> the longest lived core race, and has a Maximum Age of Venerable(350)
+
> 4d100, so around 550 years old. At 1 xp/day, we get 200000 xp or so
> (level 19).
>
> That feels right for my game. Even the longest lived race can't
QUITE
> reach maximum 'core' level without adventuring, in the average
expected
> case.
>
> DWS

What I did was use the standard conversion from gp to xp 1xp per 5gp,
then use the standard income for profession, I think it came out to
somewhere around age 93 to be 20th lv.

If you start with an unskilled laborer you get approximately 1 xp per
year. Of course we have no idea how long it takes to get to 1st lv.

Once you get to 1st lv, then things get complicated. lets assume a
best case scenerio with eleite stats and using craft skill and a human
expert. So he's got an int of 15, starting at 18, 4 points in
profession, a skill focus, and one of those 2 skill skills, saving up
for masterwork tooks for another +2 (maybe not until after the first
year, but it won't affect the outcome much). so that's 23 taking 10, or
11.5 gp a week, assuming a couple weeks off for illness etc, that's 575
gp a year, or 115 xp a year, so about 9 years to get to 2nd lv.

Now at 2nd lv, they get a big whopping +1 to thier skill, but we can
also assume some sort of synergy bonus from another skill for another
+2 (you can get really rediculous with this assume an expert focusing
on weaponsmithing and he goes with knowledge mettalurgy and profession
weaponsmith, that's just off the top of my head), for a grand total 26,
or 13 gp, or 130 xp a year , so just over 15 years for that next lv to
lv 3.

Hey guess what, somewhere around there he's going to get middle aged,
that will pump his int up by +1 to 16 and give him another 1 on his
skill, he also gets another feat, nothing I can t. However by that
time he should be able to afford some magical tools, so we are talking
say +5 instead of +2 from his tools, so a 31 on his take 10 or 15.5 gp
per week, 155 xp per year. So just under 10 more years to lv 4.

We can keep going from there until he's dead, other points of interest
are buying stat increasing magic items, a ring of sustenence (can
effectively work an extra day every day) and leadership. Even mooks
can help you on your rolls increasing them by +2 with aid another about
1/2 the time...

- Justisuar
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 6:01:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Alex Lamb wrote:
> In article <1112811837.103812.104760@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> DougL <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote:

> Now this is interesting. You and others suggesting Wish spells are
suggesting
> a "character history" factor behind a character build -- whereas the
closest
> I've come is saying when the character took various skills and
bonuses s/he
> was going to get anyway. "Met a Djinn and made a deal" sounds very
> interesting -- and I'll have to think about other plausible things
along that
> line.

Not neccessarily, spells are a purchasable good. You pay Spell Level
x CL x 10 GP + 10% focus cost + material component cost + 5 GP/EP
component. A wish costs 26,530 GP. Finding a location with a spending
limit high enough to buy 3 or so at once is no harder than getting
the tome (easier in a reasonable universe).

Poof done. Cheaper than a scroll or tome, just as legitimately a way
to spend money pregame.

AFAIK there are no rules beyond those in the Planar Ally or Planar
Binding spells for making deals with outsiders. And although it is
book legal just say HELL NO to using Planar Ally to get three wishes
for 2,910 GP. (1,000 GP for a Noble Djinn to do a service lasting
less than 1 minute with no cost or danger involved + 660 for the
level 11 spell + 1250 for the cleric's EP.)

The cost should be comparable to the difficulty of getting it to
work in play, or alternately as expensive as hiring a spellcaster.

> With the Tome I assumed its cost was part of the character's total
value of
> goods, even though it is (nearly) worthless once read. On a similar
line, I
> suppose that writing "found a gazillion-GP Dragon's Horde at 20th
level still
> doesn't get you more than 760,000 GP. So I'm guessing that the "deal
with a
> Djinn" would require counting the bribe as part of one's treasure
(?). And
> for casting a wish spell one's self, or a permanency on some other
spell, the
> cost of casting would be part of the total value. Does that make
sense?

Are you making a PC, a standard NPC, or a "special" NPC.

For a PC you give an EP total, he can spend as much EP as he wants on
spells cast on himself and on making items as long as it doesn't drop
him in level to where he can't cast the spell/make the item. IIRC you
decide on value of starting good PRIOR to spending EP on spells and
items. So how much EP did you give him, then figure item value
available,
then figure how much he does himself and how much EP it costs him.

For a standard NPC you give him a level, he buys gear, if he can do it
himself converting gold to EP at 5:1.

For a "special" NPC he should have whatever is appropriate and
reasonable
for his backstory.

DougL
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 10:35:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <1112811837.103812.104760@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
DougL <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote:
>Ability bonuses are easy to track, there is inherent from tomes and
>wishes (and the tomes are just wish items that anyone can use and have
>the purpose already set). There is Enhancement from items. There is
>Size from anything that changes your size. (Which AFAIK only applies
>to strength and con.)
>
>And AFAIK that is IT from WotC sources. Nothing else gives a named
>bonus to any ability. It seems to me that the designers were VERY
>careful to restrict stacking on ability bonuses. If unsure assume
>it's enhancement and doesn't stack is a fair rule for abilities.

I have a vague memory of a "divine bonus" but that may have been associated
with a non-permanentable (?) divine spell.

>Theoretically the cheapest way to get the wishes is to wait till
>level 17, cast two yourself, and get a noble djinni to cast the
>other three, since his are spell-like they don't actually cost
>him anything and you can probably make a deal ("OK, you have
>captured me by loading me down with great big piles of gold, now
>I must grant three wishes, drat"). Alternately you can use an
>Efreeti, pay another caster, or make your own scrolls.

Now this is interesting. You and others suggesting Wish spells are suggesting
a "character history" factor behind a character build -- whereas the closest
I've come is saying when the character took various skills and bonuses s/he
was going to get anyway. "Met a Djinn and made a deal" sounds very
interesting -- and I'll have to think about other plausible things along that
line.

With the Tome I assumed its cost was part of the character's total value of
goods, even though it is (nearly) worthless once read. On a similar line, I
suppose that writing "found a gazillion-GP Dragon's Horde at 20th level still
doesn't get you more than 760,000 GP. So I'm guessing that the "deal with a
Djinn" would require counting the bribe as part of one's treasure (?). And
for casting a wish spell one's self, or a permanency on some other spell, the
cost of casting would be part of the total value. Does that make sense?
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 10:38:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <1156md6dosgbjf1@corp.supernews.com>,
David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote:
>I can see the Wisest Sage in all the land having an Army of followers.
>They just wouldn't necessarily be a military force of any sort.
>
>All these leveled folks are people who recognize his great learning and
>wisdom, and want to keep the miniutia of the mundane world from taking
>up his time.

Well argued. I'll think about the makeup of his "army" a bit more. The 17th
level cohort should probably either be an assistant (mage of some sort, though
possibly different from the sage), or a bodyguard (fighter, possibly with one
of the "defender" PrCs).
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 10:43:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <Q4udnaTPaZZphMnfRVn-1A@comcast.com>,
Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
>news:D 2vadl$eg1$1@knot.queensu.ca...
>> In article <1112741034.869548.325740@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
>> Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>I also notice you haven't mentioned any loremaster levels. He's not
>>>really a sagely wizard unless he's got lots of loremaster levels...
>> I thought about that. Loremaster gets some different class skills,
>...and an extra 2 skill points per level.

Good point. Becaus of being an "int monster" s/he's also a "skills monster".

>> which might make sense if I planned out the skills in detail. I wasn't so sure I
>> liked most of the "secrets" but I should really look closely at what he'd give
>> up to get them.
>Taking the Loremaster levels is really a no-brainer. He *does* need three
>Item Creation or Metamagic feats (Scribe Scroll and the bonus for Wiz5 will
>take care of two of these, and if you take him to Wiz10 first, he will have
>all three), as well as Skill Focus in any Knowledge skill. He gets Decipher
>Script and Gather Information as class skills, which seems appropriate.

S/he also gets the Cha skills I was interested in - Diplomacy and Sense
Motive.

> Two
>of the Secrets are very appropriate (4 free ranks in a skill, and a bonus
>feat). The rest are just fluff for this character. The bonus languages are
>pretty cool too.

I realized it was a no-brainer last night when I looked up what he gave up
losing levels 11-20 as a mage: two metamagic or creation feats, one of which
comes back as a Secret. Now the issue is deciding whether to take 3 levels of
Elf Paragon for the +2 int (it only loses 1 wizard level).
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 10:47:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <1156mue98panq23@corp.supernews.com>,
David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote:
>I had a question asked of me the other day by a guy in our group about
>how much xp non-adventuring types earn.
>If you're interested in the logic I used to get there, I'd be happy to
>give it to you, but I came up with (on shaky grounds) three
>semi-plausible values: 1, 10 and 30 xp/day, depending on the
>assumptions I used.

Yes, I'd be interested.

> At 1 xp/day, we get 200000 xp or so (level 19).
>That feels right for my game. Even the longest lived race can't QUITE
>reach maximum 'core' level without adventuring, in the average expected
>case.

That suggest that if I want him to be 20th level (and well enough above the
minimum to be able to make the odd item from time to time), I need to have an
adventuring past. Perhaps he adventured to 20th level before middle age, then
retired, gaining 1XP per day after that.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
April 7, 2005 1:29:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <1112821300.833280.33540@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
DougL <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote:
>Are you making a PC, a standard NPC, or a "special" NPC.

I never thought about that issue. I imagine him as a former adventurer, and
used the PC wealth levels for him (like with all the previous builds). But
he's a non-adventurer at this point in his description.

>For a PC you give an EP total, he can spend as much EP as he wants on
>spells cast on himself and on making items as long as it doesn't drop
>him in level to where he can't cast the spell/make the item. IIRC you
>decide on value of starting good PRIOR to spending EP on spells and
>items. So how much EP did you give him, then figure item value
>available,
>then figure how much he does himself and how much EP it costs him.

I'd picked "20th level", which means IIRC between 20(19)/2 and 21(20)/2 x 1000
EP. Which means 190,000 to 210,000 EP. So I could pick 209,999 and then
reduce by the total EP for the created items. He'd have about 20,000 EP for
making items if I want him to stay 20th level.

>For a standard NPC you give him a level, he buys gear, if he can do it
>himself converting gold to EP at 5:1.

Hmm. I'm on record as using the PC wealth numbers (760,000 for level 20).
NPCs get less.

>For a "special" NPC he should have whatever is appropriate and
>reasonable for his backstory.

Hmm. I'm not used to that much freedom. I'd guess he's now a "special" NPC
-- whatever one would consider a retired PC who's still around as an NPC.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
April 7, 2005 1:32:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <1112815236.526730.280980@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>What I did was use the standard conversion from gp to xp 1xp per 5gp,
>then use the standard income for profession, I think it came out to
>somewhere around age 93 to be 20th lv.

Thanks for the summary; I've saved it away in my DnD folder.

Hmm. This particular guy is a grey elf, so has a lot more years to build
things up.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
April 7, 2005 1:36:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <d2urce$i35$1@knot.queensu.ca>,
David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote:
>One of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books, "The Spell Sword", had a sword
>with the magical property that someone without sword skill could take the
>sword, and someone else with the Alton gift (mental coercion) could "take
>over" and fight using the first character's body, but his/her own skill
>levels. Accompanying this was the ability to see through the wielder's eyes
>and hear through his/her eyes. This suggested to me another possibility: an
>item that lets the sage see and hear through someone's senses, but allows
>him/her to talk to the item's bearer. Adventurers might be glad of having an
>on-call advisor whose Knowledge skills are broad enough to identify most wierd
>monsters. This might permit him to earn enough XP to make up for what he
>would lose in making items.

Any suggestions on whether this is a sensible magic item? I thought it could
be based on the Scrying and Telepathy spells. What I'm not sure on at all is
how long it could stay active at a time. The sage would have to arrange to be
available at certain hours of the day. For "emergencies" (a tentacled horror
is eating the pack animals; what do we do?) perhaps there could be an "alarm"
function that could be noticed by one of the sage's followers who could notify
or wake the sage if it was "important".

How much would it be worth? or is that best left as an exercise for the
reader?
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
April 7, 2005 2:19:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

DougL wrote:
> David Alex Lamb wrote:
> > In article <1112811837.103812.104760@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > DougL <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote:
>
> > Now this is interesting. You and others suggesting Wish spells are
> suggesting
> > a "character history" factor behind a character build -- whereas
the
> closest
> > I've come is saying when the character took various skills and
> bonuses s/he
> > was going to get anyway. "Met a Djinn and made a deal" sounds very
> > interesting -- and I'll have to think about other plausible things
> along that
> > line.
>
> Not neccessarily, spells are a purchasable good. You pay Spell Level
> x CL x 10 GP + 10% focus cost + material component cost + 5 GP/EP
> component. A wish costs 26,530 GP. Finding a location with a spending
> limit high enough to buy 3 or so at once is no harder than getting
> the tome (easier in a reasonable universe).
>
> Poof done. Cheaper than a scroll or tome, just as legitimately a way
> to spend money pregame.
>

2nd that, it's not character "history" per se, any more than giving
them items equal to standard NPC gear.

> AFAIK there are no rules beyond those in the Planar Ally or Planar
> Binding spells for making deals with outsiders. And although it is
> book legal just say HELL NO to using Planar Ally to get three wishes
> for 2,910 GP. (1,000 GP for a Noble Djinn to do a service lasting
> less than 1 minute with no cost or danger involved + 660 for the
> level 11 spell + 1250 for the cleric's EP.)
>

I believe it mentions somewhere that called/summoned creatures will
charge extra for things that usually involve xp loss, or won't cast
them at all.

> For a standard NPC you give him a level, he buys gear, if he can do
it
> himself converting gold to EP at 5:1.

Yep, all the example npcs with the appropriate feats get thier crafted
items at 70% of normal cost, which comes out the same as converting XP
to GP.

Also wondering why you are using EP instead of XP, I know Electrum
Pieces don't exist anymore but standard Acronym is XP.

- Jusisaur
Anonymous
April 7, 2005 5:56:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Justisaur wrote:
> DougL wrote:

> > AFAIK there are no rules beyond those in the Planar Ally or Planar
> > Binding spells for making deals with outsiders. And although it is
> > book legal just say HELL NO to using Planar Ally to get three
wishes
> > for 2,910 GP. (1,000 GP for a Noble Djinn to do a service lasting
> > less than 1 minute with no cost or danger involved + 660 for the
> > level 11 spell + 1250 for the cleric's EP.)
> >
>
> I believe it mentions somewhere that called/summoned creatures will
> charge extra for things that usually involve xp loss, or won't cast
> them at all.

IIRC the actual wording is that they won't cast spells with an XP
component. The Wish from such outsiders is not a spell, it has no
XP component.

The wording SHOULD be what you give... But I am almost positive it
is not. All in all a poster child for rule 0.

> > For a standard NPC you give him a level, he buys gear, if he can do
> it
> > himself converting gold to EP at 5:1.
>
> Yep, all the example npcs with the appropriate feats get thier
crafted
> items at 70% of normal cost, which comes out the same as converting
XP
> to GP.
>
> Also wondering why you are using EP instead of XP, I know Electrum
> Pieces don't exist anymore but standard Acronym is XP.

I was using EP for the abreviation in the mid 70's, sometimes I
revert.

DougL
Anonymous
April 8, 2005 12:39:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote in message
news:1112811837.103812.104760@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Theoretically the cheapest way to get the wishes is to wait till
> level 17, cast two yourself, and get a noble djinni to cast the
> other three,

The *fastest* way, however, is to make Tomes using a Warlock. They can pull
this off at 12th level, if they start with an 18 Charisma.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
Anonymous
April 8, 2005 1:17:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On 6 Apr 2005 14:01:40 -0700, "DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com>
carved
> upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > Not neccessarily, spells are a purchasable good. You pay Spell
Level
> > x CL x 10 GP + 10% focus cost + material component cost + 5 GP/EP
> > component. A wish costs 26,530 GP. Finding a location with a
spending
> > limit high enough to buy 3 or so at once is no harder than getting
> > the tome (easier in a reasonable universe).
>
> The downside of direct spell purchase is that, as the rules note,
> you're dealing with this guy who might well have an agenda. Also, you
> need a place with one or more 17th+ level wizards (or 18th+ level
> sorcerers) with enough spare XP to cast those wishes. In many ways I
> think you're more likely to be able to buy a tome.

Buying the Tome requires that either:

A) someone makes it on order. In which case they can also cast the
spells, cheaper and easier. Ergo the spells are easier.

or

B) At some time in the past someone MADE a +5 tome, costing the
maker (who was able to cast wish directly) 25,000 EP and a
non-trivial amount of money, with no buyer or use in mind, to
make something costing more to make than a scroll of wish x5
and less useful to the maker (or anyone who deals with him
directly) than buying a wish or using a scroll. Then he left
it sitting around till the character needs it. Yeh, right.

I defy anyone to seriously claim that (B) is more likely to
happen in a sane world than there are to be spellcasters for
hire. If anyone, anywhere, anytime, is or has been MAKING tomes
then they are/were also selling wishes, if they are making more
tomes than they have an actual need for then that means they
are REALLY DESPERATE to find useful ways to spend XP usefully,
and will be overjoyed to sell the wishes directly and actually
get some money back.

I can come up with rationalizations for sources for tomes,
but they all imply a market for wish spells (possibly on a
different plane, not that that bothers level 17 character)
that considers selling 5 wishes to be a fairly trivial
transaction.

DougL
Anonymous
April 8, 2005 2:58:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 6 Apr 2005 14:01:40 -0700, "DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> carved
upon a tablet of ether:

> Not neccessarily, spells are a purchasable good. You pay Spell Level
> x CL x 10 GP + 10% focus cost + material component cost + 5 GP/EP
> component. A wish costs 26,530 GP. Finding a location with a spending
> limit high enough to buy 3 or so at once is no harder than getting
> the tome (easier in a reasonable universe).

The downside of direct spell purchase is that, as the rules note,
you're dealing with this guy who might well have an agenda. Also, you
need a place with one or more 17th+ level wizards (or 18th+ level
sorcerers) with enough spare XP to cast those wishes. In many ways I
think you're more likely to be able to buy a tome.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
Anonymous
April 8, 2005 8:12:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

DougL wrote:
> Justisaur wrote:
> > DougL wrote:
>
> > > AFAIK there are no rules beyond those in the Planar Ally or
Planar
> > > Binding spells for making deals with outsiders. And although it
is
> > > book legal just say HELL NO to using Planar Ally to get three
> wishes
> > > for 2,910 GP. (1,000 GP for a Noble Djinn to do a service lasting
> > > less than 1 minute with no cost or danger involved + 660 for the
> > > level 11 spell + 1250 for the cleric's EP.)
> > >
> >
> > I believe it mentions somewhere that called/summoned creatures will
> > charge extra for things that usually involve xp loss, or won't cast
> > them at all.
>
> IIRC the actual wording is that they won't cast spells with an XP
> component. The Wish from such outsiders is not a spell, it has no
> XP component.
>

I looked it up
It does include spell like abilities that would otherwise cost xp. But
it's only on summoned creatures, doesn't apply to called creatures.

Generally you have to negotiate with called creatures though. As a DM I
would never never let a PC get something for nothing in this
arrangement and would charge at least the usual ammount, and as such
would never give such freebees to my NPCs to be fair.

- Justisaur
Anonymous
April 9, 2005 3:58:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Alex Lamb wrote:
> This is a build for a venerable grey elf sage (wizard), where my goal
was
> maximizing Int and Int-related skills. His stats are based on the
same points
> (25) as the elite array. The +2 on race makes up for the loss of +1
> skill/level for human.
>
> At venerable age, he gets -6 per physical ability (min 1:D MG) and +3
per
> mental ability. Since these Int increases affect skill points, I had
to
> decide at what age he levels. The simplest is to assume he reaches
level 20
> by middle age, so age-related ability boosts don't affect skill
points. Less
> credible is assuming all his leveling up happens after reaching
venerable age,
> which gives an extra skill point per level at level 1-3, and 2/level
at level
> 4 and above (so he *could* be even more of an Int munchkin). I gave
him the
> tome at level 16, the first level where its cost was about half the
total
> value of his treasure.
>
> I could have made him an expert for +4 skills/level but didn't want
to lose
> the nifty spells. The wizard sage, with elven lifetime, can learn
just about
> any spell s/he wants.
>

Not to mention that he can find things out with divination magic he
might not find in a library.

> Str 1= min[8-2(race)-6(age), 1]
> Dex 2= 8-6(age)
> Con 2= 8-6(age)
> Int 40=18+2(race)+4(levels)+5(tome at 16th level)+6(headband of
> Int)+3(age)+2(ioun stone)
> Wis 26=14+3(age)+1(levels)+6(periapt of wisdom)+2(ioun stone)
> Cha 24=13+3(age)+6(cloak of charisma)+2(ioun stone)
>
> Skill points: [28/lvl 1, 7/lvl 2-7, 8/lvl 8-15, 11/lvl 16-19, 12/lvl
20]
>
> As a sage he would invest in knowledge skills; as a mage he needs
Spellcraft.
> As a non-adventurer he might want Profession -- though that skill
doesn't need
> to be high. Since he would be consulted a lot I think he also needs
Sense
> Motive (even though it's cross-class). Is there a feat somewhere
that adds
> some skills to your class list? I have some vague memory of such a
feat but
> can't recall where I saw it. I'd like to have a choice to add a few
Wis or
> Cha skills. Even untrained, a Wis-based skill would be +7.
>

I can't think of an official feat like that but I'd do what KOTOR II
does for it's characters: make up feats like "Class Skill:
_insert_skill_here_." I don't see it as too unbalancing because you're
swapping a feat for the increased ability in one skill.

> A typical knowlege skill maintained from first level would be 24
ranks + 15
> Int mod = 39. Thus he is guaranteed to make a DC 40 skill roll, or
DC 50 if
> he can take 10 (which would be most of the time). These are even
tougher than
> the DC 30 "really tough questions" mentioned in the SRD.
>

I don't think you can take 10 on Knowledge checks.

> Magic:
> tome of clear thought 137,500
> headband of intellect 36,000
> periapt of wisdom 36,000
> cloak of charisma 36,000
> ioun stones (I,W,Ch) 24,000 8000*3
>
> plus 514,500 in other gear. He could conceivably invest 36,000*3 and
8,000*3
> in the other ability boosters, taking physical skills to 9/10/10.
I'm
> wondering what else is worthwhile?
>

Crystal balls to augment his scrying ability would help. Maybe an
amulet of proof against detection and location (being a sagely diviner,
he might want to take steps against somebody spying against him). The
rest can be pretty much up to you.

> He probably needs to invest in a home; it would be in character to
have a
> personal library, and someone as infirm as this probably needs
followers to
> take care of him and keep nuisances away. So I think he would take
the
> Leadership feat for his last feat before settling down at 18th-20th
level.
> His leadership store is 20+7(cha)+2(great reknown as a sage)=29, he
gets a
> 17th level cohort, 135 1st-level followers, 13 2nd, 7 3rd, 4 4th, 2
5th, and 2
> 6th.
>
> I'm not sure what to pick for the other feats. Various "Craft
magical item"
> feats make sense for many mages, but as a retired adventurer he might
not want
> to use them too much because of the XP cost. Unless there is some
way for him
> to still adventure despite his frailties...
>

Maybe metamagic feats to improve his divination spells?
Anonymous
April 9, 2005 4:29:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote in message
news:1112977078.705384.252500@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>> On 6 Apr 2005 14:01:40 -0700, "DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com>
> carved
>> upon a tablet of ether:
>>
>> > Not neccessarily, spells are a purchasable good. You pay Spell
> Level
>> > x CL x 10 GP + 10% focus cost + material component cost + 5 GP/EP
>> > component. A wish costs 26,530 GP. Finding a location with a
> spending
>> > limit high enough to buy 3 or so at once is no harder than getting
>> > the tome (easier in a reasonable universe).
>>
>> The downside of direct spell purchase is that, as the rules note,
>> you're dealing with this guy who might well have an agenda. Also, you
>> need a place with one or more 17th+ level wizards (or 18th+ level
>> sorcerers) with enough spare XP to cast those wishes. In many ways I
>> think you're more likely to be able to buy a tome.
>
> Buying the Tome requires that either:
>
> A) someone makes it on order. In which case they can also cast the
> spells, cheaper and easier. Ergo the spells are easier.
>
> or
>
> B) At some time in the past someone MADE a +5 tome, costing the
> maker (who was able to cast wish directly) 25,000 EP and a
> non-trivial amount of money, with no buyer or use in mind, to
> make something costing more to make than a scroll of wish x5
> and less useful to the maker (or anyone who deals with him
> directly) than buying a wish or using a scroll. Then he left
> it sitting around till the character needs it. Yeh, right.
>
> I defy anyone to seriously claim that (B) is more likely to
> happen in a sane world than there are to be spellcasters for
> hire. If anyone, anywhere, anytime, is or has been MAKING tomes
> then they are/were also selling wishes, if they are making more
> tomes than they have an actual need for then that means they
> are REALLY DESPERATE to find useful ways to spend XP usefully,
> and will be overjoyed to sell the wishes directly and actually
> get some money back.
>
> I can come up with rationalizations for sources for tomes,
> but they all imply a market for wish spells (possibly on a
> different plane, not that that bothers level 17 character)
> that considers selling 5 wishes to be a fairly trivial
> transaction.
>
> DougL

That's why in my game for the most part Tomes do not exist. The very few
that do are divine gifts from the gods, lost books of ancient races, or
created by obviously insane wizards, (gives a bonus to int, and has the
potential of a curse, or something.)
Anonymous
April 9, 2005 8:03:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

[missed original post, piggybacking]

Decaying Atheist <harker@coxdot.net> wrote:
>"DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> wrote in message
>> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>>> "DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>>>
>>>> Not neccessarily, spells are a purchasable good. You pay Spell
>>>> Level x CL x 10 GP + 10% focus cost + material component cost +
>>>> 5 GP/EP component. A wish costs 26,530 GP. Finding a location with a
>>>> spending limit high enough to buy 3 or so at once is no harder than
>>>> getting the tome (easier in a reasonable universe).
>>>
>>> The downside of direct spell purchase is that, as the rules note,
>>> you're dealing with this guy who might well have an agenda. Also, you
>>> need a place with one or more 17th+ level wizards (or 18th+ level
>>> sorcerers) with enough spare XP to cast those wishes. In many ways I
>>> think you're more likely to be able to buy a tome.
>>
>> Buying the Tome requires that either:
>>
>> A) someone makes it on order. In which case they can also cast the
>> spells, cheaper and easier. Ergo the spells are easier.

Unless, of course, you want the equivalent of the +5 tome, in which case
finding a 25th level wizard willing to blow a level *right NOW* might
be difficult.

>> B) At some time in the past someone MADE a +5 tome, costing the
>> maker (who was able to cast wish directly) 25,000 EP and a
>> non-trivial amount of money, with no buyer or use in mind, to
>> make something costing more to make than a scroll of wish x5
>> and less useful to the maker (or anyone who deals with him
>> directly) than buying a wish or using a scroll. Then he left
>> it sitting around till the character needs it. Yeh, right.

(a) It's cheaper to make the tome than to scribe the scrolls. The tome
costs 6250 gp to make, the scroll(s) cost 9562.5 gp to scribe.

(b) People make things for which there is no immediate buyer if they
know that those things are valuable, and that there's a good chance
that there will almost certainly be a buyer in the near future. (Ford
makes cars with the expectation that they'll sell, based, one presumes,
on knowledge of the car market, but they still make a given car _before_
they know that there's a buyer for it. Thus we end up with the "end of
model year" sales; fortunately for the mages, a tome doesn't get
supplanted by the next year's model.)

(c) As noted above, in the default setting, it's unlikely that any
mage-type is going to be sitting on 25,000 xp to spend on wishes; it's
therefore perfectly reasonable that they may have written a tome of
lesser power that they're willing to augment. (I.e., "you can have
the +3 version right now, or you can wait three days so I can fill out
the appendicies".)

>> I defy anyone to seriously claim that (B) is more likely to
>> happen in a sane world than there are to be spellcasters for
>> hire. If anyone, anywhere, anytime, is or has been MAKING tomes
>> then they are/were also selling wishes, if they are making more
>> tomes than they have an actual need for then that means they
>> are REALLY DESPERATE to find useful ways to spend XP usefully,
>> and will be overjoyed to sell the wishes directly and actually
>> get some money back.

Again, if you want that big stat boost, you gotta have the 5 wish spells
cast in succession. This gives you several options:
(i) find a 26th level mage;
(ii) find two to five 17th+ level mages, all willing to work together;
(iii) find one 17th+ level mage who's had the foresight to scribe scrolls;
(iv) find a 17th+ level mage who's made a tome.

of these, (iii) and (iv) would seem the most likely. It's then down to
the tome being cheaper than the scrolls, versus the scrolls being more
flexible.

And then there's the fact that the tome lets the wizard work his own
schedule, and not have to deal as much with the time demands of others.

--
--DcB
Anonymous
April 9, 2005 10:51:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <d2urce$i35$1@knot.queensu.ca>,
David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote:
>This is a build for a venerable grey elf sage (wizard), ...

Except that I misread the Grey Elf desciption -- his +2 int -2 Str is in
addition to the high elf +2 dex -2 con

>At venerable age, he gets -6 per physical ability (min 1:D MG) and +3 per
>mental ability.

Thus he now gets:
Str 1= min[8-2(race)-6(age), 1]
Dex 4= 8+2(race)-6(age)
Con 1= min[8-2(race)-6(age), 1]
Int 40=18+2(race)+4(levels)+5(tome at 16th level)+6(headband of
Int)+3(age)+2(ioun stone)
Wis 26=14+3(age)+1(levels)+6(periapt of wisdom)+2(ioun stone)
Cha 24=13+3(age)+6(cloak of charisma)+2(ioun stone)

Also, should a Sage be a diviner instead of a general wizard? I imagine he'd
give up Necromancy.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
Anonymous
April 9, 2005 10:51:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Alex Lamb wrote:
> In article <d2urce$i35$1@knot.queensu.ca>,
> David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote:
>
>>This is a build for a venerable grey elf sage (wizard), ...
>
>
> Except that I misread the Grey Elf desciption -- his +2 int -2 Str is in
> addition to the high elf +2 dex -2 con
>
>
>>At venerable age, he gets -6 per physical ability (min 1:D MG) and +3 per
>>mental ability.
>
>
> Thus he now gets:
> Str 1= min[8-2(race)-6(age), 1]
> Dex 4= 8+2(race)-6(age)
> Con 1= min[8-2(race)-6(age), 1]
> Int 40=18+2(race)+4(levels)+5(tome at 16th level)+6(headband of
> Int)+3(age)+2(ioun stone)
> Wis 26=14+3(age)+1(levels)+6(periapt of wisdom)+2(ioun stone)
> Cha 24=13+3(age)+6(cloak of charisma)+2(ioun stone)
>
> Also, should a Sage be a diviner instead of a general wizard? I imagine he'd
> give up Necromancy.

With such pathetic physical stats, it would seem to me that Necromancy
would be tempting. Use magic to shore up lack of physical life-force
and all that.

But that's going against the grain of the original concept, I think.
Perhaps he was tempted to study Necromancy, but decided that there were
things one shouldn't toy with. Then he swore it off. Might be an
interesting twist on the character.

Though he doesn't really have to swear off Necromancy to retain the
original concept. He just has to be strong enough to not become
obsessed with it. At which point he uses Necromancy when he needs to,
but always reminds himself that it's just a means and not an end to itself.

....

And as for your original question- The stereotypical sage is a diviner.
But he needn't be a diviner to be a sage. It's just that Sages deal
with information, and Divination is the school that makes it so much
easier to find out this information.

I'd just have to say... "Go with your gut."

-Tialan
Anonymous
April 9, 2005 11:48:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote:
>In article <d2urce$i35$1@knot.queensu.ca>,
>David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote:
>>This is a build for a venerable grey elf sage (wizard), ...

>Int 40=18+2(race)+4(levels)+5(tome at 16th level)+6(headband of
> Int)+3(age)+2(ioun stone)
>Wis 26=14+3(age)+1(levels)+6(periapt of wisdom)+2(ioun stone)
>Cha 24=13+3(age)+6(cloak of charisma)+2(ioun stone)

The Ioun Stones don't stack with the [cloak|headband|periapt]. (Same
type of bonus, don'tcha'know.

--
--DcB
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 1:23:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On 8 Apr 2005 09:17:58 -0700, "DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> carved
upon a tablet of ether:

> B) At some time in the past someone MADE a +5 tome, costing the
> maker (who was able to cast wish directly) 25,000 EP and a
> non-trivial amount of money, with no buyer or use in mind, to
> make something costing more to make than a scroll of wish x5
> and less useful to the maker (or anyone who deals with him
> directly) than buying a wish or using a scroll. Then he left
> it sitting around till the character needs it. Yeh, right.

However, the tome can be shipped to somewhere that the maker doesn't
want to go. It does not need the maker to be on hand when it's used.
Unlike multiple Wishes it doesn't need someone who can cast more than
one or two 9th level spells in a day. The tome can be made over a long
period of time, too.

What makes times unlikely is that scrolls and rings of wishes have
more utility and are cheaper, not that directly cast Wishes are
cheaper, etc.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
!