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AMD and Heat II

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  • CPUs
  • AMD
  • Intel
Last response: in CPUs
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
September 23, 2001 9:00:15 AM

I tried to follow the other thread, but it was all abuse.

I find that this review is critically flawed. It does show that Intel's thermal management is superiour to AMD's. The question remaining, though, is that of OVER engineering.

The scenarios used in the description of failures that affect thermal management are the fan stopping and the heatsink falling off. Two GOOD scenarios that should be managed.

However, the video clearly shoes NEITHER of these scenarios being followed.

If the HSF does come off, it will ALWAYS be when the unit is in transport, and NOT SWITCHED ON. The test, though, had the HSF at full load, full temperature and then the HSF removed.

Umm, I don't think so! How many of us move our PC around violently enough to loose the HSF with it still running!

This obviously does not give the thermal diode in the AMD solution enough time to throttle the CPU. The superior Intel diode does react fast enough.

However, I would guess that REALISTIC tests:

1) Fan failure (but Heat Sink OK) for a fully loaded system.
2) HSF removal and THEN turn the system on.

would show that the thermal diode in the AMD CPU reacting fast enough to save the CPU.

I'm not a particular fan of either CPU. I run AMD at home, Intel at work. Both are good.

Intel clearly has the best solution. My point is that the AMD solution has been delivered to provide for REAL scenarios, and that as not tested. Intel have perhaps over-engineered their CPU with "the mother of all thermal diodes", and your test is the only time it would pay off. The rest of the time, the cheaper AMD part would do the job.

Just another reason Intel CPUs are more expensive?

Long Haired Git

P.S. Unlike the other thread, how about we stay on topic?

More about : amd heat

September 23, 2001 4:17:31 PM

the AMD cpu is flawed, missing thermal protection! stop crying already!

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
September 23, 2001 4:55:13 PM

I'm not here to argue about what could likely occur to my heat sinks at different points of my PC operation. As is clearly shown by the video Tom's tester did something that can happen. Other wise how did they film it? To answer the question of do I think that all the tests whos results may have been useful were done or not, I would have to say no. Obviously more could have been done. I will confine my comments to the results of this test.

The point of the test was to show the results of the absolute worst case scenario. That was done. Test succesful.

While I agree that other scenarios would most likely also reveal useful data. I feel that worst case is a great place to start.

Assume for a moment that in the grand scheme it doesn't really cost any more time or money to do it the P4 way than the Palomino way. Why wouldn't the design engineers choose the P4 way? They would have to be dumb or something not to, it works better. It makes sense that the P4 design would be similar resource wise to produce, or at least I haven't been shown otherwise.

Because one company does a better job at it than another, why would people be so upset about that? Deal with it. It's just a sign of the times. One guy outdoes the other to only be outdone by the first guy first guy again. I say hurray, we have two chip behemoths arguing for our money by seeing who can give us the most functional product.

Blindly brand loyal zealots are fools. I say buy what works best for the money. If you like running your processors without any cooling, you would get a lot more value from your purchase if you bought a Pentium 4.
Related resources
September 23, 2001 5:04:59 PM

Stop crying? ROFLMAO

Whose the one screaming........ :wink:

--
It's Princess Leia, the yodel of my life. Give me my sweater back or I'll play the guitar.
September 23, 2001 7:34:54 PM

the tests were great, a bit cruel and extreme though.

i guess they just show what worse could happen to your chips if you dont give serious consideration to the cooling of your system.

those were not the scenarios you could encounter in day to day life, but you should interpolate between this extreme case and the ideal one. of course, everything is digital - it is or it is not and that applies to the existance of your digital processor too!

girish

<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
September 23, 2001 8:07:58 PM

I believe this topic was THOROUGHLY covered in another thread.
September 24, 2001 1:27:50 AM

bit repeditive and kinda sad aint it Boondock?
*rolls eyes*

Religious wars are 2 groups of people fighting over who has the best imaginary friend.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
September 24, 2001 12:28:01 PM

I agree that THG should of performed additional testing if he wanted to present a better review on thermal protection of CPU's. I indicated the exact same tests in the thread "amd dead, intel survives: other factors."

Unfortunately, it appears that if you complain about the test, you're labeled and AMD lover and are flamed accordingly. Personally, I am a little disgusted with the Intel fanatics who appear to be afraid (without any good reason) to have these additional test performed. I doubt that both of the AMD CPU's would survive additional tests, but I don't see why they are reluctant from having additional testing performed.
September 24, 2001 12:29:59 PM

The test was valid. It worked on the worst case failure of the HSF, and pointed out the shortcomings of the AMD thermal protection. Why are you so upset?

Even a cold Athlon, will fry before or shortly after completing POST if the HSF is not attached. AMD cautions users very strongly about applying power to an Athlon even for a few seconds without a HSF.

The reality is if a monitoring program such as Motherboard Monitor is used, there is plenty of time to shut down the system in case of a HSF fan failure. But the AMD thermal protection by itself is inadequate.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
September 24, 2001 2:08:58 PM

Thing is jbigg, AMD never claimed to have thermal protection in its cpu's at all! So it cannot be viewed as a "failure of AMD's thermal protection".

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
September 24, 2001 3:03:44 PM

<font color=blue>"AMD never claimed to have thermal protection in its cpu's at all! So it cannot be viewed as a "failure of AMD's thermal protection"</font color=blue>

It is in the Palomino. The inclusion if the "thermal diode" in the Palomino was a direct response (in my opinion) to the "heat related" problems of the AMD cpu line. It was really just a marketing ploy, saying "we have thermal protection too". On one level they do, but just nowhere as good as the Intel solution.

Would the Palomino thermal diode have notified the motherboard in time had the fan only failed? An educated guess says yes, as the standard thermal device on the motherboard coupled with MBM can react in time. It only stands to reason that the CPU internal themal diode would react faster.

But in all, a moot point (other then for marketing), for how often does a HSF come off, or even fail? The lack of thermal protection on AMD CPU's will not prevent me from using AMD, as long as AMD has the price/performance advantage.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
September 24, 2001 3:21:18 PM

I agree, the tests were all but pointless. But (palmino excepted- Ive never killed one yet..) athys WILL die if you power on without a heatsink. As fir falling off in transit, possible, but not likely, I work for a large uk pc manufacturer (that i wont mention coz I dont want flaming.....) and to the best of my knowledge, NONE have fallen off.

Next time you wave - use all your fingers
September 24, 2001 3:31:56 PM

Quote:
As is clearly shown by the video Tom's tester did something that can happen.


WTF are you smoking? How often do you remove your HSF while running the A3 demo? I rest my case.

<font color=green>In memory of all the Americans that died 9/11/01
Rest in peace</font color=green>
September 24, 2001 3:45:02 PM

dude, your in f'n denial, you run your Amd sys with: MBM, rain, shutdown now!, 5+ fans, opened case, water cooler and a prayer before boot up, LOL! just to play a game of UT and D/L porn. You guys are so stoopid. wake up!

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
September 24, 2001 3:50:15 PM

meltdown take off your hsf and hopefully you will also meet a sad end like toms athlon did, failing that, go jump off a cliff


Next time you wave - use all your fingers
September 24, 2001 4:30:12 PM

I run Via Hardware monitor (to track temps and voltages, isn't even set up to auto-shutdown), and umm...1 case fan and a slot fan....and...ummm...that's it.
No heat problems whatsoever, I hardly ever go above 40c under full load.

<font color=green>In memory of all the Americans that died 9/11/01
Rest in peace</font color=green>
September 24, 2001 6:08:25 PM

did you see that the Athlons ware fuming even as the tester was removing the Heat sink??? like it was fuming for a while...

great tests, but still a doubt. i need to do the tests myself, any donations???

<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
September 24, 2001 7:48:39 PM

I'm an AMD user and I'm not an Intel hater (or lover for that matter) but I'm not blind. Have you seen all the posts where heatsink mounting tabs have broken and the other posts where CPU fans have failed? The lack of thermal protection and the extreme heat of Athlons is a real problem. The mounting points snap because of excessive clamp pressure of Athlon heatsinks. The clamp pressure is high to improve the heatsinks' ability to cool the extremely hot Athlons.

Problems are not just a result user incompetence. Things break. The penalty for this should not be complete CPU destruction.

Would you like a Quarter Pounder?
No, thank you. Just give me the BIG heatsink. It's an Athlon.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
September 24, 2001 8:15:05 PM

Mr. FatBurger,

Unfortunatley I haven't been smoking anything otherwise I'd probably feel a lot more relaxed right now, but that's another thread.

I tried to say this, but in case I wasn't able to make myself clear...

Of course I know that the probability of this actually happening on accident is very slim, but it is still not zero. In fact I'm confident that if I had the resources and ran the same test again the results would be similar. A valid test, however unlikely.

Apparently someone at both companies has decided that the new designs require this type of protection. It makes sense to me that someone with enough pull needs those features, and has convinced them to add it. Otherwise why would the circuitry be showing up at all.

I guess only time will tell whether or not it makes market sense.

Why in the world do you even care so much about this? It's not like if you keep your heat sink/fan combo in good shape, and properly attatched the results even apply to you. I don't even think the Intel zealots would be so stupid as to suggest AMD couldn't do this if they wanted to.

I would be the first person to admit that this particular test has almost nothing to do with me. It sure was neato though.
September 24, 2001 8:52:49 PM

Agreed, the video rocked. But of all the time I've been on this board (not as long as my title may imply), I've never heard anyone say that an HSF has fallen off while in operation. I've seen <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam..." target="_new">cows crapping on PCs</A>. Maybe Tom should've tested that?

Turning on the PC with the HSF off would be a decent test, although still fairly unlikely (just because it doesn't happen often). Causing the fan to stop would be the best test. Maybe he should've started with that, and ended with the test he did do, and show at what point each CPU would fail? That would make sense.

The reason I really dislike this test is that it's so obviously biased. Yes, AMD should have a decent thermal protection scheme in place and I understand that Tom was just pointing that out to try and make them develop one. But it was an obviously slanted method, and that I don't like.

Sorry I came down on you so hard. You just made a statement that was asking for it. J/k :) 

<font color=green>In memory of all the Americans that died 9/11/01
Rest in peace</font color=green>
September 24, 2001 9:45:52 PM

>1 case fan and a slot fan...and...ummm...that's it.

stop bs'n you have: 1 front fan, 2 in the ps, 1 slot fan(waste of $$), maybe side, top, 2 in the back, 1 on cpu and a 1, 1 household fan pointed at your open case.

typical AMD Fanatic rig.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
September 24, 2001 10:37:44 PM

You're right, I forgot about my 1 PSU fan. Otherwise, that's it. And I run at 28c idle, 40c full load.

<font color=green>In memory of all the Americans that died 9/11/01
Rest in peace</font color=green>
September 24, 2001 11:09:06 PM

"You're right" OMFG did you just admit that meltdowndude was right??? I'm marking this on a calender.

The general tone of this thread is a lot more sensable then the one I started and looks a lot more like what I was hoping for. The AMD heads are at least admitting to a small unlikely problem and the Intel heads are the ones looking like they want a fight. I have never cared on way or the other. My posts were only ever designed to inform and to keep someone from burning up their CPU. Even though I think it is a bigger deal then a lot of you AMD guys I still commend you for being more truthful.
September 24, 2001 11:55:28 PM

He's only very partially right. I just forgot about the one fan in my PSU. He was wrong about the other ~500 fans he apparently thinks I need for my Athlon.

I've seen lots of lemmings concede certain valid points about Intel being superior in one area. From what I've seen (probably isn't totally true), the trolls are always saying that Intel is better in every way and looking for a fight. Raystonn is the exception.

Hmm...your posts were "only ever designed to inform and to keep someone from burning up their CPU."?

Quote:
You AMD guys are such A$$HOLES.

Quote:
Has that cock smoker burned up 2 CPUs?

Quote:
Those f-ing AMD f*#ks have gotten me peeped for the first time ever since 11-11-00.

Right, looks to me like you're very open-minded. You earned the title of "Troll" in my book :) 

<font color=green>In memory of all the Americans that died 9/11/01
Rest in peace</font color=green>
September 24, 2001 11:57:10 PM

The only time I've seen them fry is after bending or cutting the core putting on the CPU cooler. Other than that, it's not going to fry. I'm running a rear case fan on a 1 gig & it's nice & cool. However the PSU blasts out the heat. I've made a post about it before. So Thermal Protection or not, AMD is what I'm running!! Can't beat it & I'm also running VIA on a ASUS board, with, you guessed it a Sound Blaster Live Value. Dam!!!

RC

God Bless America
September 25, 2001 5:37:22 AM

Quote:
It is in the Palomino. The inclusion if the "thermal diode" in the Palomino was a direct response (in my opinion) to the "heat related" problems of the AMD cpu line. It was really just a marketing ploy, saying "we have thermal protection too". On one level they do, but just nowhere as good as the Intel solution.


AMD has never claimed the palomino has thermal protection, it has a thermal diode. All of the reviews insinuated this is thermal protection, and true it can be used as such, but AMD themselves never claimed so.

I can use a butterknife to unscrew my case screws(when I cant find the screwdriver) if the butterknife is unable to unscrew the screw, it is NOT a failure of the butterknifes design, as it was not designed to be a screwdriver.

OK, thats a bad analogy but it gets my point across, calling this test a failure of AMD's thermal protection is not right, because AMD never claimed to have any thermal protection.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
September 25, 2001 11:30:52 PM

FatDude that is so unfair

All that stuff is out of context. I never said anything bad until I was called a dumbass. Griz drew first blood as usual. That is my whole problem. I will post something informative or happy like "don't burn up your cpu" or "hey I just got a great deal from Dell on a system that I can't even build yet" and I get attacked and called stupid or a dumbass. Once I'm attacked I may blow it off or I may attack back. The point is if you look at the thread Griz and other AMD heads attacked me first. I am not an Intel head or a troll. If you look at my posts they are mostly either questions or informative. I hate being drawn in to flame wars but I'm not gonna take a bunch of crap sitting down.

Ok I just saw the little smiley face so I'll let you live for now.
September 25, 2001 11:45:17 PM

Don't worry, the smiley face didn't mean too much, you're still a troll.

Anytime you start swearing at and lying about me and others when I haven't even said anything to you, suddenly you are despised by many on this board. Remain civil and open-minded, and you'll go far.

<font color=green>In memory of all the Americans that died 9/11/01
Rest in peace</font color=green>
September 26, 2001 12:23:24 AM

Dude you are getting on my nerves but I will be civil and try to straighten this out. I confess to the cussing but it is a matter of record that I was called a dumbass first.

What lies are you refering too?? Honestly??

The only time I can remember having a run in with you was over a wiring problem. What are you talking about?

Griz is another matter. He has attacked me without provacation several times and so I would be likely to jump on him without much additional provacation from him.
September 26, 2001 1:23:25 AM

Personally, I like fans. In my area, the more fans some one has, the coller their comp is. I like fans, I like the fact that they keep my processor cooler, and the fact that I sleep better when I hear the sound of fans. hence, fans aren't a problem, but a good thing. Oh yeah, btw, my friend has P4, and I noticed his blows out a lot more hot air than my T-Bird- I mean I can barely put my hand in teh back of his computer- mine on the other hand is only lukewarm.

Your brain: PC
You brain on drugs: Mac
September 26, 2001 3:29:01 AM

<font color=blue>"AMD has never claimed the palomino has thermal protection, it has a thermal diode. All of the reviews insinuated this is thermal protection, and true it can be used as such, but AMD themselves never claimed so."</font color=blue>

I see. So why did AMD add a thermal diode with pin outs for the outside world if not for thermal protection? They may not have claimed to have thermal protection, but that is what a thermal diode is for.

<font color=blue>"All of the reviews insinuated this is thermal protection, and true it can be used as such, but AMD themselves never claimed so."</font color=blue>

Hmmm.... What else can the thermal diode be used for???

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
September 26, 2001 3:35:46 AM

Fans (Low Speed 120mm Sunons) = Quiet and Powerful. Looks d*mn cool too. Also an excuse for me to have bought a Dremel.

AMD = Runs Hotter, Faster, Cheaper.
Intel = Runs Slower, Cooler, More Expensive.

Simple. Admit the flaws and the truth will prevail. Personally I would rather have a cheaper main system that I have to spend a small amount of cash on to cool with the same preformance as a more expensive (MUCH) rig that I don't have to spend money for cooling on. That large cash surplus can then be used for video cards, HD's, sound cards, etc.
September 26, 2001 9:11:50 AM

How about accurate temprature monitoring for one?
Comparable temprature monitoring across multiple platforms?

Many reasons to have a thermal diode.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
September 26, 2001 12:42:44 PM

<font color=blue>"How about accurate temprature monitoring for one?
Comparable temprature monitoring across multiple platforms?"</font color=blue>

Good point. We can all use temperature charts for comparison, especially when temps start to exceed 90c. Why would one want to monitor CPU temperatures other then for thermal protection? Perhaps this is a new feature of AMD processors, the ability to monitor CPU temperature? Why hasn't Intel added a separate diode for temperature monitoring in addition to its excellent thermal protection?

Be realistic. It is a poor stopgap solution for shutdown purposes. AMD recognizes the heat problem with the Athlon, and responded with the Palomino core, which runs 20% cooler, and surprise, has a thermal diode for protection against HSF failure. The main problem is that they put the responsibility of shutting down the chip on the motherboard, and not on the CPU itself, where it belongs.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
September 26, 2001 12:59:39 PM

Comparing temps on different motherboards is a crap shoot at best, the thermal probes for the cpu are ALL in different places, on board thermal diodes would allow the temp readings to be more accurate and universal. You asked me for other possible uses for a thermal diode and I gave you some.

As for me being realisitic, what the diode was put there to do is anybodys guess, and maybe amd felt it would be a decent thermal protection solution, HOWEVER AMD NEVER CLAIMED IT WAS THERMAL PROTECTION, so the test was pointless and not a failure of amds "thermal protection" it was a failure if anything of the motherboard companies own bios instituted thermal protection.

Quote:
Why hasn't Intel added a separate diode for temperature monitoring in addition to its excellent thermal protection?

Because any kind of thermal solution would INCLUDE a temprature diode, Intel dosent need to have a second diode to monitor temprature, amd does NOT have thermal protection, so they added a temp diode(who knows why, probably for thermal protection, but THEY HAVE NOT CLAIMED THIS PUBLICALLY SO WHAT WE SURMISE THE DIODE TO BE FOR IS POINTLESS).

I maintain my stance that thermal diodes have OTHER uses besides heat shutdown, as I have shown in my previous post. You can continue to call toms test a failure of AMD's thermal protection, but you cannot fail a test of something you do not, and never claimed to, have.


~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
September 26, 2001 3:16:25 PM

Ok, maybe not outright lying, but anytime someone starts making blanket statements about all AMD owners, that really pisses me off.

<font color=green>In memory of all the Americans that died 9/11/01
Rest in peace</font color=green>
September 26, 2001 3:18:03 PM

<font color=blue>"I maintain my stance that thermal diodes have OTHER uses besides heat shutdown, as I have shown in my previous post. You can continue to call toms test a failure of AMD's thermal protection, but you cannot fail a test of something you do not, and never claimed to, have."</font color=blue>

The "other uses" for thermal diodes that you proposed both measure temperature. And for what purpose? To shut down the chip before it damages itself. AMD has not brought attention to its themal diode solution because it is inferior to Intels solution. Plain and simple.

AMD CPU's are superior in many ways to Intel chips, but not when it comes to thermal protection. Though an extreme case, THG demonstrated this. Both Intel chips survived, and the Palomino (with the thermal diode and monitoring motherboard) failed.

Even if we assume that the Palomino has no thermal protection, in a test designed to see how each chip handles excessive heat production, the Palomino failed the test. Why did it fail? IT WAS DESTROYED, AND TOOK THE MOTHERBOARD WITH IT. Regardless of what AMD has and has not claimed, the Palomino failed the test.

If you cannot fail a test for something you do not have, you cannot pass it either. If you cannot pass a test, then you fail. There is no in between.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
September 26, 2001 3:21:35 PM

Ok, drop this already. How many times do you guys have to fight over nothing. If you take a step back you will see how silly you look. And if someone flames me and tells me that all my post are silly I don't really care because I just try to bring some humor to this forum.

Nice <b><font color=green>Lizards</b></font color=green> <b>crunch</b> Trolls cookies....... :smile: Yummy!! :smile:
September 26, 2001 6:39:43 PM

No one is flaming. We are discussing. You don't have to read it if you are bothered.

It is a bit on the side of nonsense, but so what? Sometimes you just feel a need to respond, then it feeds both ways.

Like a radio or television show that you don't like, turn it off or tune to another station....

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
September 26, 2001 7:53:47 PM

dude, stfu already, in response to public outcry on thermal issues and fried cpus, AMD released a cpu with four pads, when that didn't work they came up with a half assed thermal diode that failed. therefore that cpu flawed.

AMD never claimed it was thermal protection because they knew it was half-assed and didn't work. I say recall the AthlonMP.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
September 26, 2001 7:59:47 PM

<font color=blue>"in response to public outcry on thermal issues and fried cpus, AMD released a cpu with four pads, when that didn't work they came up with a half assed thermal diode that failed."</font color=blue>

I can agree with this part of your post.

As for the rest, it is typical AMDMeltDown. Nonsense....

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
September 26, 2001 8:44:21 PM

"Ok, maybe not outright lying, but anytime someone starts making blanket statements about all AMD owners, that really pisses me off."

Sorry BurgerDude. I do not intend to insult all AMD users. I only intend to insult the people who attack me and cannot admit that there are two sides to every issue. I bought an Intel CPU and an ATI AIW because I use my computer for video. I hate being called stupid by SOME AMD people and SOME nVidia people for not buying their stuff. For what I do the stuff I bought is great. If I used different software I would have bought different hardware. I would have no problem owning a Gforce or Thunderbird. The ATI card is clearly not up to Gforce speed in games and the P4 cannot hang with AMD's FPU. I am not blind or stupid.
September 26, 2001 9:00:14 PM

Ok, that's alright then. Before you were coming off blantantly biased, and hating everyone who even considered buying an AMD (or worse, actually owned one!! :) 


<font color=green>I post so you don't have to!
9/11 - RIP</font color=green>
September 27, 2001 2:14:28 AM

Measuring temprature has other uses than just shutting down in the event of a failure, it can be used to test hsf effectivness etc etc.

ALL I AM SAYING, is that amd never claimed to have thermal protection. Nothing more nothing less. Tom tested a feature of amd chips that DOES NOT EXIST, of course it failed the test.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
September 27, 2001 5:34:50 PM

Quote:
the Palomino failed the test. Why did it fail? IT WAS DESTROYED, AND TOOK THE MOTHERBOARD WITH IT.


The Thunderbird did that, not the Palamino.

<font color=green>I post so you don't have to!
9/11 - RIP</font color=green>
September 27, 2001 6:42:35 PM

shut up you idjut... every single time you open your mouth it isnt for any good reason so shh... and moo :) 

if in doubt blame microsoft...
September 27, 2001 6:47:14 PM

my point, a heatsink being removed is not at all likely... ivenever had anything like this occur on any of the boxes i have built... going to build myself a new box in october, all i can say is i hope the XP does the same to the p4 as the tbird did to the p3

if in doubt blame microsoft...
September 27, 2001 7:05:36 PM

moo, moo, moo!

I like that gateway commercial too!

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
September 27, 2001 7:12:39 PM

Did you get dumped by a chick who like AMD?? I'm just trying to figure out where your intense hate for AMD comes from. Obviously it's not from an intellectual stand point.

Nice <b><font color=green>Lizards</b></font color=green> <b>crunch</b> Trolls cookies....... :smile: Yummy!! :smile:
September 27, 2001 7:43:54 PM

hahahaha... NO!

if in doubt blame microsoft...
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