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Guest

Guest
I tried to follow the other thread, but it was all abuse.

I find that this review is critically flawed. It does show that Intel's thermal management is superiour to AMD's. The question remaining, though, is that of OVER engineering.

The scenarios used in the description of failures that affect thermal management are the fan stopping and the heatsink falling off. Two GOOD scenarios that should be managed.

However, the video clearly shoes NEITHER of these scenarios being followed.

If the HSF does come off, it will ALWAYS be when the unit is in transport, and NOT SWITCHED ON. The test, though, had the HSF at full load, full temperature and then the HSF removed.

Umm, I don't think so! How many of us move our PC around violently enough to loose the HSF with it still running!

This obviously does not give the thermal diode in the AMD solution enough time to throttle the CPU. The superior Intel diode does react fast enough.

However, I would guess that REALISTIC tests:

1) Fan failure (but Heat Sink OK) for a fully loaded system.
2) HSF removal and THEN turn the system on.

would show that the thermal diode in the AMD CPU reacting fast enough to save the CPU.

I'm not a particular fan of either CPU. I run AMD at home, Intel at work. Both are good.

Intel clearly has the best solution. My point is that the AMD solution has been delivered to provide for REAL scenarios, and that as not tested. Intel have perhaps over-engineered their CPU with "the mother of all thermal diodes", and your test is the only time it would pay off. The rest of the time, the cheaper AMD part would do the job.

Just another reason Intel CPUs are more expensive?

Long Haired Git

P.S. Unlike the other thread, how about we stay on topic?
 
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Guest

Guest
I'm not here to argue about what could likely occur to my heat sinks at different points of my PC operation. As is clearly shown by the video Tom's tester did something that can happen. Other wise how did they film it? To answer the question of do I think that all the tests whos results may have been useful were done or not, I would have to say no. Obviously more could have been done. I will confine my comments to the results of this test.

The point of the test was to show the results of the absolute worst case scenario. That was done. Test succesful.

While I agree that other scenarios would most likely also reveal useful data. I feel that worst case is a great place to start.

Assume for a moment that in the grand scheme it doesn't really cost any more time or money to do it the P4 way than the Palomino way. Why wouldn't the design engineers choose the P4 way? They would have to be dumb or something not to, it works better. It makes sense that the P4 design would be similar resource wise to produce, or at least I haven't been shown otherwise.

Because one company does a better job at it than another, why would people be so upset about that? Deal with it. It's just a sign of the times. One guy outdoes the other to only be outdone by the first guy first guy again. I say hurray, we have two chip behemoths arguing for our money by seeing who can give us the most functional product.

Blindly brand loyal zealots are fools. I say buy what works best for the money. If you like running your processors without any cooling, you would get a lot more value from your purchase if you bought a Pentium 4.
 

girish

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the tests were great, a bit cruel and extreme though.

i guess they just show what worse could happen to your chips if you dont give serious consideration to the cooling of your system.

those were not the scenarios you could encounter in day to day life, but you should interpolate between this extreme case and the ideal one. of course, everything is digital - it is or it is not and that applies to the existance of your digital processor too!

girish

<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
 
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Guest

Guest
I agree that THG should of performed additional testing if he wanted to present a better review on thermal protection of CPU's. I indicated the exact same tests in the thread "amd dead, intel survives: other factors."

Unfortunately, it appears that if you complain about the test, you're labeled and AMD lover and are flamed accordingly. Personally, I am a little disgusted with the Intel fanatics who appear to be afraid (without any good reason) to have these additional test performed. I doubt that both of the AMD CPU's would survive additional tests, but I don't see why they are reluctant from having additional testing performed.
 

jlbigguy

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The test was valid. It worked on the worst case failure of the HSF, and pointed out the shortcomings of the AMD thermal protection. Why are you so upset?

Even a cold Athlon, will fry before or shortly after completing POST if the HSF is not attached. AMD cautions users very strongly about applying power to an Athlon even for a few seconds without a HSF.

The reality is if a monitoring program such as Motherboard Monitor is used, there is plenty of time to shut down the system in case of a HSF fan failure. But the AMD thermal protection by itself is inadequate.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
 

Matisaro

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Thing is jbigg, AMD never claimed to have thermal protection in its cpu's at all! So it cannot be viewed as a "failure of AMD's thermal protection".

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
 

jlbigguy

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<font color=blue>"AMD never claimed to have thermal protection in its cpu's at all! So it cannot be viewed as a "failure of AMD's thermal protection"</font color=blue>

It is in the Palomino. The inclusion if the "thermal diode" in the Palomino was a direct response (in my opinion) to the "heat related" problems of the AMD cpu line. It was really just a marketing ploy, saying "we have thermal protection too". On one level they do, but just nowhere as good as the Intel solution.

Would the Palomino thermal diode have notified the motherboard in time had the fan only failed? An educated guess says yes, as the standard thermal device on the motherboard coupled with MBM can react in time. It only stands to reason that the CPU internal themal diode would react faster.

But in all, a moot point (other then for marketing), for how often does a HSF come off, or even fail? The lack of thermal protection on AMD CPU's will not prevent me from using AMD, as long as AMD has the price/performance advantage.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>
 

CALV

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I agree, the tests were all but pointless. But (palmino excepted- Ive never killed one yet..) athys WILL die if you power on without a heatsink. As fir falling off in transit, possible, but not likely, I work for a large uk pc manufacturer (that i wont mention coz I dont want flaming.....) and to the best of my knowledge, NONE have fallen off.

Next time you wave - use all your fingers
 

FatBurger

Illustrious
As is clearly shown by the video Tom's tester did something that can happen.

WTF are you smoking? How often do you remove your HSF while running the A3 demo? I rest my case.

<font color=green>In memory of all the Americans that died 9/11/01
Rest in peace</font color=green>
 

AmdMELTDOWN

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dude, your in f'n denial, you run your Amd sys with: MBM, rain, shutdown now!, 5+ fans, opened case, water cooler and a prayer before boot up, LOL! just to play a game of UT and D/L porn. You guys are so stoopid. wake up!

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
 

CALV

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meltdown take off your hsf and hopefully you will also meet a sad end like toms athlon did, failing that, go jump off a cliff


Next time you wave - use all your fingers
 

FatBurger

Illustrious
I run Via Hardware monitor (to track temps and voltages, isn't even set up to auto-shutdown), and umm...1 case fan and a slot fan....and...ummm...that's it.
No heat problems whatsoever, I hardly ever go above 40c under full load.

<font color=green>In memory of all the Americans that died 9/11/01
Rest in peace</font color=green>
 

girish

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did you see that the Athlons ware fuming even as the tester was removing the Heat sink??? like it was fuming for a while...

great tests, but still a doubt. i need to do the tests myself, any donations???

<font color=red>No system is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
 

phsstpok

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I'm an AMD user and I'm not an Intel hater (or lover for that matter) but I'm not blind. Have you seen all the posts where heatsink mounting tabs have broken and the other posts where CPU fans have failed? The lack of thermal protection and the extreme heat of Athlons is a real problem. The mounting points snap because of excessive clamp pressure of Athlon heatsinks. The clamp pressure is high to improve the heatsinks' ability to cool the extremely hot Athlons.

Problems are not just a result user incompetence. Things break. The penalty for this should not be complete CPU destruction.

Would you like a Quarter Pounder?
No, thank you. Just give me the BIG heatsink. It's an Athlon.
 
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Guest

Guest
Mr. FatBurger,

Unfortunatley I haven't been smoking anything otherwise I'd probably feel a lot more relaxed right now, but that's another thread.

I tried to say this, but in case I wasn't able to make myself clear...

Of course I know that the probability of this actually happening on accident is very slim, but it is still not zero. In fact I'm confident that if I had the resources and ran the same test again the results would be similar. A valid test, however unlikely.

Apparently someone at both companies has decided that the new designs require this type of protection. It makes sense to me that someone with enough pull needs those features, and has convinced them to add it. Otherwise why would the circuitry be showing up at all.

I guess only time will tell whether or not it makes market sense.

Why in the world do you even care so much about this? It's not like if you keep your heat sink/fan combo in good shape, and properly attatched the results even apply to you. I don't even think the Intel zealots would be so stupid as to suggest AMD couldn't do this if they wanted to.

I would be the first person to admit that this particular test has almost nothing to do with me. It sure was neato though.
 

FatBurger

Illustrious
Agreed, the video rocked. But of all the time I've been on this board (not as long as my title may imply), I've never heard anyone say that an HSF has fallen off while in operation. I've seen <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=336250#336250" target="_new">cows crapping on PCs</A>. Maybe Tom should've tested that?

Turning on the PC with the HSF off would be a decent test, although still fairly unlikely (just because it doesn't happen often). Causing the fan to stop would be the best test. Maybe he should've started with that, and ended with the test he did do, and show at what point each CPU would fail? That would make sense.

The reason I really dislike this test is that it's so obviously biased. Yes, AMD should have a decent thermal protection scheme in place and I understand that Tom was just pointing that out to try and make them develop one. But it was an obviously slanted method, and that I don't like.

Sorry I came down on you so hard. You just made a statement that was asking for it. J/k :)

<font color=green>In memory of all the Americans that died 9/11/01
Rest in peace</font color=green>
 

AmdMELTDOWN

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>1 case fan and a slot fan...and...ummm...that's it.

stop bs'n you have: 1 front fan, 2 in the ps, 1 slot fan(waste of $$), maybe side, top, 2 in the back, 1 on cpu and a 1, 1 household fan pointed at your open case.

typical AMD Fanatic rig.

"<b>AMD/VIA!</b>...you are <i>still</i> the weakest link, good bye!"
 

FatBurger

Illustrious
You're right, I forgot about my 1 PSU fan. Otherwise, that's it. And I run at 28c idle, 40c full load.

<font color=green>In memory of all the Americans that died 9/11/01
Rest in peace</font color=green>
 

lakedude

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"You're right" OMFG did you just admit that meltdowndude was right??? I'm marking this on a calender.

The general tone of this thread is a lot more sensable then the one I started and looks a lot more like what I was hoping for. The AMD heads are at least admitting to a small unlikely problem and the Intel heads are the ones looking like they want a fight. I have never cared on way or the other. My posts were only ever designed to inform and to keep someone from burning up their CPU. Even though I think it is a bigger deal then a lot of you AMD guys I still commend you for being more truthful.
 

FatBurger

Illustrious
He's only very partially right. I just forgot about the one fan in my PSU. He was wrong about the other ~500 fans he apparently thinks I need for my Athlon.

I've seen lots of lemmings concede certain valid points about Intel being superior in one area. From what I've seen (probably isn't totally true), the trolls are always saying that Intel is better in every way and looking for a fight. Raystonn is the exception.

Hmm...your posts were "only ever designed to inform and to keep someone from burning up their CPU."?

You AMD guys are such A$$HOLES.
Has that cock smoker burned up 2 CPUs?
Those f-ing AMD f*#ks have gotten me peeped for the first time ever since 11-11-00.
Right, looks to me like you're very open-minded. You earned the title of "Troll" in my book :)

<font color=green>In memory of all the Americans that died 9/11/01
Rest in peace</font color=green>
 

RCPilot

Champion
The only time I've seen them fry is after bending or cutting the core putting on the CPU cooler. Other than that, it's not going to fry. I'm running a rear case fan on a 1 gig & it's nice & cool. However the PSU blasts out the heat. I've made a post about it before. So Thermal Protection or not, AMD is what I'm running!! Can't beat it & I'm also running VIA on a ASUS board, with, you guessed it a Sound Blaster Live Value. Dam!!!

RC

God Bless America